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Out of Order Profile

Out of Order

English, Talk, 1 season, 102 episodes, 2 days, 9 hours, 16 minutes
Out of Order is a German Marshall Fund podcast about how our world was, is, and will be ordered. From the way the pandemic is shaping geopolitics; to the dark side of tech for democracy; to the political movements, elections and uprisings changing global governance; the podcast brings together international experts from inside and outside of GMF to help us understand our disordered world. In addition to Out of Order episodes, GMF also produces topical mini-series including Post-Pandemic Order and Frontlines of Democracy. All of GMF’s podcast content, along with audio from select special events, can be found in the Out of Order stream. For more information on the German Marshall Fund, visit us at
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Exit, Ukraine?

In this “Transatlantic Takeaway” episode, hosts Soraya Sarhaddi Nelson and Rachel Tausendfreund delve into scenarios to end Russian President Vladmir Putin’s war on Ukraine and how the conflict is changing the global order. Their guests are: - Michal Baranowski, senior fellow and director of the GMF office in Warsaw. - Gesine Dornblueth, co-author of “Ruhmlose Helden,” a book on a plane crash that changed German-Russian relations. She is a former Moscow correspondent for Deutschlandradio. - Liana Fix, program director for international affairs at the Körber Foundation in Berlin. - Joerg Forbrig, senior fellow and director for Central Eastern Europe at the GMF office in Berlin. This show was produced by Dina Elsayed.
8/4/202334 minutes, 35 seconds
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A German about-face – Is the “Zeitenwende” sustainable?

A watershed speech by Chancellor Olaf Scholz in late February that cast off Germany’s long-standing, military-averse policies is lauded by NATO and the United States. But can Germany enhance its armed forces quickly enough to protect Europe against Russia? And what does this sea change mean for a proposed European army? Host Soraya Sarhaddi Nelson explores the new German tack and its ramifications with Rachel Tausendfreund, editorial director for the German Marshall Fund and co-host of Transatlantic Takeaway, and Heiner Brauß, Senior Associate Fellow at the German Council on Foreign Relations (DGAP) in its security and defense program. He was a lieutenant general in the Bundeswehr and is a former assistant secretary general for NATO defense policy and force planning. We also hear from Col. André Wüstner, chairman of the German Armed Forces Association. This show was produced by Dina Elsayed and Abigail Megginson.
8/4/202341 minutes, 32 seconds
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The Digital Markets and Digital Services Acts: What do they mean for Big Tech and you?

In this “Transatlantic Takeaway” episode, hosts Soraya Sarhaddi Nelson and Rachel Tausendfreund dissect sweeping new EU digital laws and their impact on large tech companies, start-ups and users with guests: Constance Chucholowski, founder and managing director at Candid Public Affairs; Travis Todd, co-founder of Silicon Allee; and Julia Trehu, program manager and Fellow with the German Marshall Fund’s Digital Innovation and Democracy Initiative. This show was produced by Dina Elsayed.
8/4/202332 minutes, 3 seconds
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U.S. Midterm Elections 2022: The end of American democracy?

Although a record turnout is expected on Nov. 8th, opinion surveys show many Americans no longer trust U.S. elections nor their government. Many Republican voters still embrace the “Big Lie” that President Trump had the 2020 election stolen from him. So what does the growing mistrust, President Joe Biden’s low ratings and the worst inflation in four decades mean for the midterm elections and American democracy in general? In this episode of Transatlantic Takeaway by Common Ground Berlin and the German Marshall Fund of the United States, host Soraya Sarhaddi Nelson explores the controversial elections with: Sudha David-Wilp, GMF’s Senior Transatlantic Fellow and deputy director of the Berlin office. Jeremy Shapiro, research director at the European Council on Foreign Relations and a former advisor to the State Department during the Obama administration. Anna Sauerbrey, foreign editor of the weekly Die Zeit and a contributor to the New York Times op-ed section. Produced by Dina Elsayed.
8/4/202344 minutes, 18 seconds
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The war in Ukraine – What’s next?

In this first anniversary episode of Transatlantic Takeaway, a Common Ground Berlin and German Marshall Fund of the United States collaboration, hosts Soraya Sarhaddi Nelson and Rachel Tausendfreund talk about the sweeping 10-month-long war Russia is waging in Ukraine and its impact on Europe and the United States with Guido Goldman Distinguished Scholar for Geostrategy at GMF, Thomas Kleine-Brockhoff and Michal Baranowski, Managing Director, GMF East. Is there an end in sight for the war that has killed an estimated 100,000 Ukrainian soldiers, a similar number of Russian soldiers and 40,000 Ukrainian civilians? Produced by Sylvia Cunningham
8/2/202326 minutes, 11 seconds
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Germany’s new national security strategy – Groundbreaking or status quo?

German Chancellor Olaf Scholz and his cabinet recently unveiled their country’s long-awaited national security strategy, the first since World War II. Co-hosts Soraya Sarhaddi Nelson and Rachel Tausendfreund explore whether this strategy is groundbreaking as its proponents claim and the impact on Germany’s allies and enemies. This week’s guests are Michal Baranowski, senior fellow and managing director of the German Marshall Fund East, based in Warsaw, and Gesine Weber, a fellow with the German Marshall Fund’s geostrategy team in Paris. Produced by Dina Elsayed.
7/6/202328 minutes, 23 seconds
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For better or for worse? A transatlantic forecast for 2023

In this first Transatlantic Takeaway of the year with co-hosts Soraya Sarhaddi Nelson and Rachel Tausendfreund, German Marshall Fund senior fellow Daniel Hegedus and GMF Paris office director Martin Quencez delve into what we can expect in 2023, including from EU relations with the U.S. and with Russia; from the war in Ukraine, and from the world’s likely next nuclear power, Iran.
7/3/202339 minutes, 35 seconds
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Germany, The Scapegoat – The Gop’s Latest Tact in The Race For US President.

In this episode of “Transatlantic Takeaway,” hosts Soraya Sarhaddi Nelson and Rachel Tausendfreund delve into how Germany is fodder for the GOP’s campaign strategy for the 2024 elections with guests Majda Ruge, Senior Policy Fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations and Sudha David-Wilp, Senior Transatlantic Fellow at the German Marshall Fund and director of its Berlin office. Dina Elsayed produced this episode.
6/12/202338 minutes, 28 seconds
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Bold Ideas to Make Digital Democracy Work, with Audrey Tang

Rachel Tausendfreund talks to Taiwan’s digital minister, Audrey Tang, about the perils and prospects of tech for democracy. Audrey discusses strategies to combat the infodemic (including “humor over rumor” and public notice) and explains the advantages of Taiwan’s public social media platform PTT, which gave the government early warning for the coronavirus. Audrey outlines the art of troll control how purpose-seeking (as opposed to profit-seeking) social media can work. And because this is part of the Marshall75 collection Rachel and Audrey talk about what investments need to be made to ensure a healthier future of an open, democratic Internet, and which partners need to be on board.
6/16/202227 minutes, 38 seconds
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Transatlantic Takeaway #2: Europe On The Brink Of War?

Russia appears ready to invade Ukraine, with the recent deployment of roughly 100,000 Russian troops along their mutual border. In this episode of Transatlantic Takeaway — a monthly collaboration between Common Ground and the German Marshall Fund of the United States — Host Soraya Sarhaddi Nelson and her guests discuss the ongoing crisis and its impact on the EU, the United States and Moscow. Our experts: Rachel Tausendfreund, GMF editorial director in Berlin and host of “Out of Order” podcast; Liana Fix, GMF Resident Fellow and program director for International Affairs at the Körber-Stiftung; Michael Kimmage, GMF Non-Resident Fellow and Catholic University history professor who was part of the U.S. Secretary of State’s planning staff from 2014-2016 advising on Russia and Ukraine.
1/19/202231 minutes, 28 seconds
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Watching China in Europe with EU Director-General for Trade Sabine Weyand

"Watching China in Europe" is a recurring series from the Out of Order team. Hosted by Noah Barkin, a senior visiting fellow at GMF and managing editor at Rhodium Group, WCIE digs into the Europe-China relationship with the people shaping it. In this episode, Noah speaks with Sabine Weyand, Director-General for Trade at the European Commission. Ms. Weyand explains what the EU is doing to respond to China's economic retaliation against Lithuania, discusses prospects for reviving the EU-China investment agreement, as well as the outlook for the EU-US Trade and Technology Council and WTO reform. For more on China in Europe, subscribe to Noah's monthly newsletter at the link below.
12/22/202133 minutes, 29 seconds
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How to Change the World: A New Business Canvas for Purpose Driven Companies

Links:The EU Policy Lab: Social Economy Canvas: Did Start the Fire—Now System Change Is Inevitable and Irreversible:
12/20/202129 minutes, 21 seconds
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How to Change the World: A Discussion of the Role of Youth in Politics

Climate change. Health care. Education. Debt. These are just a few of the issues being debated today in the halls of power. The results of these debates will have profound consequences for all of us, but perhaps no group will be more affected than the young. With such a clear stake in the outcome, it might be surprising to learn that as a group, young people are less likely to vote and serve in public offices than older generations. In this podcast, Dr. Christine Huebner of Nottingham Trent University and Scott Warren, co-founder of the preeminent civics education organization Generation Citizen, met with Lauren Burke of GMF Cities to discuss why young people are less engaged in traditional politics, how they are engaging, and the perennial question of whether it is better to effect change from within or force it from the outside. This discussion was inspired by the work of the Cities Fortifying Democracy project. GMF Cities, with the support of Germany’s Federal Foreign Office, is leading a two-year, transatlantic multi-city cohort to explore and advance city practices in strengthening democracy. The project, called Cities Fortifying Democracy, will examine city innovations in governing, voting & elections, public safety & justice, and local journalism.
10/15/202144 minutes, 2 seconds
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Watching China In Europe With German FDP Lawmaker Gyde Jensen

Click HERE to subscribe to Noah's "Watching China in Europe" newsletter and read the October edition HERE. 
10/13/202123 minutes, 19 seconds
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Watching China in Europe with French Diplomat Maurice Gourdault-Montagne

Click HERE to subscribe to Noah's "Watching China in Europe" newsletter and read the October edition HERE. 
10/5/202129 minutes, 20 seconds
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Transatlantic Take: Germany's Post-Merkel Election Results

After 16 years in power, the Christian Democrats without Angela Merkel have reaped historically bad results in Sunday’s election. All the votes have been tallied and the Social Democrats have come out on top, but with only 25.7% of the vote they will need to get both the Greens and the Liberals on board for a coalition. But other coalition options are also in play, including the “Jamaica” coalition that would return the Christian Democrats to the Chancellery. Rachel Tausendfreund, GMF’s editorial director based in Berlin talks Germany’s election results, future coalition possibilities, and the implications for the “traffic light” or the “Jamaica” coalition for European and transatlantic priorities with Markus Ziener, GMF’s Helmut Schmidt Fellow, and Peter Sparding, GMF fellow and resident Germany expert.
9/28/202140 minutes, 23 seconds
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Implications of the Withdrawal from Afghanistan

Related Articles:
9/10/202154 minutes, 42 seconds
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Prospects for US-Japan-Europe Security Cooperation in the Indo-Pacific

To learn more about GMF's Japan Trilateral Forum, visit:"
9/9/202135 minutes, 40 seconds
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Best Friends Again? A Transatlantic Update (Guest Episode from Common Ground Berlin)

For more Common Ground episodes visit: 
7/2/202133 minutes, 45 seconds
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The Growing Role of Cities in Foreign Affairs

The line separating local from global issues is blurring. Inequality, climate change, the integration of migrants and refugees, and the growing influence of China are just some of the critical transnational issues affecting cities today. None of it can be properly addressed or resolved without the world’s metropolises and their leaders. On this episode of Out of Order, we’re talking about the burgeoning role of cities in international affairs -- how cities conduct diplomacy and how they work with one another to solve global problems. In recent years we’ve seen the creation of many offices dedicated to international affairs in cities, professionalizing international engagement and building a key vertical connection that gives the local level a voice in a multi-layered global environment. Our guests this week are two people who know this field well: Dr. Gabriele Goldfuss, Director of the Office for International Affairs for the city of Leipzig in Germany; and Ambassador Henri-Paul Normandin, former Director of International Relations for the city of Montreal in Quebec, Canada. Both Gabriele and Henri-Paul are also members of a new network of City Directors of International Affairs, recently launched by GMF Cities. This week’s episode is hosted by GMF’s Paul Costello.
6/11/202135 minutes, 38 seconds
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Watching China in Europe with Germany's UN Ambassador Christoph Heusgen

Click HERE to subscribe to Noah's "Watching China in Europe" newsletter and read the April edition HERE. Official Statements: Statement by Christoph Heusgen in the High-level virtual event on the situation of Uyghurs and other Turkic Muslim minorities in Xinjiang, May 12Final Remarks by Ambassador Christoph Heusgen in the Security Council on Germany's 2019/2020 termsArticles:U.S., UK Germany Clash with China at U.N. over Xinjiang (Reuters; May 12, 2021) China Outlines Its Priorities as UN Security Council President (The Diplomat; May 5, 2021)'Good Riddance,' China Says as Germany Leaves U.N. Security Council (Reuters; December 22, 2020)
5/18/202124 minutes, 14 seconds
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Watching China in Europe: Episode Three with Raphael Glucksmann

In the third installment of "Watching China in Europe," Noah Barkin speaks with Raphael Glucksmann, a member of the European Parliament and chairman of a special committee in the Parliament that is looking into foreign interference and disinformation. Mr Glucksmann, one of several lawmakers who was put on a Chinese sanctions list in March, revealed that the European Council is working on a mandate that would give the EU new powers to counter Chinese disinformation. He also talked about the "Faustian pact" between European business and China, and the "dangerous mood" in European capitals that has led some leaders to remain silent on China's sanctions. New episodes of the "Watching China in Europe" series will be posted to the Out of Order feed every few weeks. For more on China in Europe, subscribe to Noah's monthly newsletter at the link below. The new May edition is online today.
5/4/202133 minutes, 11 seconds
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Watching China in Europe: Episode Two with Wolfgang Niedermark

Click HERE to subscribe to Noah's "Watching China in Europe" newsletter and read the April edition HERE.  
4/21/202133 minutes, 16 seconds
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Behind Europe’s Plan to Clean Up Global Supply Chains

Lawmakers Call for Green 'Due Diligence' in Supply Chains (Euractiv) MEPs: Hold Companies Accountable for Harm Caused to People and Planet (European Parliament) #WeSeeYou: COVID-19 and the Fashion Retail Industry  (Blog post by Laura Basagni, Trade Experettes) Video: Rana Plaza Collapse: The Deadly Cost of Fashion (The New York Times)
3/25/202121 minutes, 9 seconds
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37 Parties, 1 Election: What Dutch Politics Mean for Europe

Related Reading: Netherlands Election: Mark Rutte and Europe's New Awkward Squad (Financial Times)"Frugal Four" Propose "Loans for Loans" Approach to Coronavirus Recovery Fund (Politico EU, May 2020)Netherlands Election: Mark Rutte Set to Win Big-- But What Next? (The Guardian, March 2021)Nederlanders zijn niet de nieuwe Britten (Caroline de Gruyter, NRC Handelsblad, March 2021)  Episode Music - Blue Dream - CheelDemocracy to Despotism - Zachary Tarrant
3/15/202129 minutes, 19 seconds
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Watching China in Europe: Episode One with Martin Selmayr

Subscribe to Noah's monthly "Watching China in Europe Newsletter" HEREEpisode Music: Blue Dream by Cheel 
3/2/202135 minutes, 32 seconds
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“America is Back” and a Marathon Week of Diplomacy

Paper: "Flexible Security Arrangements and the Future of NATO Partnerships" (Steven Keil and Sophie Arts, Op-Ed: "New Possibilities Open for the U.S.-Poland Relationship" (Michal Baranowski, RealClearWorld)Policy Brief Series: "Agenda 2021: A Blueprint for U.S.-Europe-India Cooperation" (Garima Mohan,   
2/25/202132 minutes, 3 seconds
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Will Alexei Navalny Make Russia More Democratic? (Guest Episode from Democracy Works)

Links: How Biden Can Achieve Russian Restoration (Michael Kimmage, The New Republic) 
2/22/202152 minutes, 50 seconds
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Europe’s Rollercoaster Vaccine Rollout

New York Times: “Top EU Officials Comes Under Fires in Vaccine Wars”The Guardian: EU Leaders Began to Feel Heat Over Slow Covid Vaccine RolloutPeterson Institute: The Pandemic is Not Under Control Anywhere Unless it is Controlled Everywhere
2/5/202127 minutes, 4 seconds
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Scoring Germany's EU Presidency

Out of Order is turning to the not-so-distant past to take stock of Germany’s Presidency of the Council of the European Union, which recently ended. After six months helming the EU’s policy agenda… what were the expectations and how did Germany fare? And now that Portugal has picked up the baton, what should the priorities for 2021 be? GMF’s Sudha David-Wilp leads two conversations with top German officials on their country's EU presidency and what comes next. First up: Germany’s Chief Economist and Director General for Economic and Fiscal Policy Strategy Jakob von Weizsäcker. Followed by two key legislators: Sergey Lagodinsky, Member of the European Parliament for Alliance 90/The Greens; and Jürgen Hardt, Foreign Policy Spokesperson of the CDU/CSU Parliamentary Group. To kick off the episode, GMF’s Sydney Simon talks to Goetz Frommholz, a Berlin-based analyst with the Open Society European Policy Institute (OSEPI) about the position of the Council presidency itself and how it all went. Thanks to our friends at OSEPI who partnered with GMF on this episode.
1/12/202140 minutes, 28 seconds
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Defending Democracy in the Digital World: A Conversation with Marietje Schaake

 Report: “A Future Internet for Democracies: Contesting China’s Push for Dominance in 5G, 6G, and the Internet of Everything” (Lindsay Gorman, Alliance for Securing Democracy)Article: "Democratic Source Code for a New EU-U.S. Tech Alliance" (Marietje Schaake and Tyson Barker, Lawfare)
12/23/202029 minutes, 4 seconds
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Future-Proofing the Alliance with NATO’s Head of Policy Planning Dr. Benedetta Berti

Credit Music by Patrick PatrikiosTitle Music by Zachary Tarrant
12/11/202030 minutes, 45 seconds
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The Right Honorable Baroness Catherine Ashton on the Transatlantic Alliance’s Next Chapter

Op-Ed: "I Helped Negotiate the Iran Deal. Here's How Joe Biden Could Revive It." (Catherine Ashton, TIME) Report: "Together or Alone: Choices and Strategies for Transatlantic Relations for 2021 and Beyond." (The German Marshall Fund and the Bundeskanzler-Helmut-Schmidt-Stiftung)
11/25/202022 minutes, 20 seconds
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Ambassador Wendy Sherman on the Future of U.S. Foreign Policy

Songs in Episode:Staycation - Corbyn Kites Out of Order Theme - Zachary Tarrant
11/20/202018 minutes, 54 seconds
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Transatlantic Takes: Europe's Post-Election Mood

Episode Music: Easy Stroll -  Track Tribe 
11/13/202028 minutes, 15 seconds
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Everything You Wanted to Know About Voting in the U.S. with the Democracy Fund’s Tammy Patrick

Related Reading:  "Iran and Russia Seeks to Influence Election in Final Days, U.S. Officials Warn" (The New York Times, October 21, 2020)"Cyberattacks, Foreign Interference, and Digital Infrastructure: Conducting Secure Elections Amid Pandemic" (The Alliance for Securing Democracy and the International Foundation for Electoral Systems)"Voting by Mail is Still Secure. Here's Why." (David Levine and Amber McReynolds;The Fulcrum, October 5, 2020)"Voter Registration Deadlines—It's Complicated." (Tammy Patrick; The Fulcrum, October 18, 2020)Episode Music:  End Music: Subway Dreams - Dan Henig 
10/26/202028 minutes, 7 seconds
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Reporting the Vote: CBS News' Caitlin Conant and Jennifer De Pinto on Getting the Story Right

The media plays an essential role in every democracy; but in an election season marked with uncertainty on many different levels, the responsibility of the press corps to preserve the truth while getting the story right is even greater. Now armed with the lessons of 2016—and with disinformation and misinformation still rampant – how is one of America’s most prominent broadcast networks taking on the challenge of covering the 2020 election?CBS News’ Political Director Caitlin Conant and Deputy Director of Surveys Jennifer De Pinto join the Alliance for Securing Democracy’s Rachael Dean Wilson for a conversation about how CBS News and its peers are navigating an increasingly complex information environment, what it’s learned since 2016 and how it’s preparing to cover any potential Election Day curveballs, and the role of the media in preserving the integrity of the vote in this very unusual year.
10/16/202023 minutes, 43 seconds
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Shadow State: Josh Rudolph with Luke Harding on the Kremlin’s Quest for Chaos in the West

This week, we’re handing the mic over to Josh Rudolph, the Malign Finance fellow at GMF’s Alliance for Securing Democracy and the author of the new report, Covert Foreign Money.Josh is joined by Luke Harding, best-selling author and senior international correspondent at The Guardian. Harding, who served as The Guardian’s Moscow bureau chief from 2007-2011, recently published the new book “Shadow State: Murder, Mayhem, and Russia’s Remaking of the West.” From Novichok poisonings to millions in covert money, Josh and Luke discuss how the Kremlin tries to spread its influence around the world. The fake news and Facebook trolls are just part of this story.   Links:Book: Shadow State: Murder, Mayhem, and Russia's Remaking of the WestReport: Covert Foreign Money: Financial Loopholes Exploited by Authoritarians to Fund Political Interference in DemocraciesArticle: Alexei Navalny and the long history of poisoned Kremlin criticsOp-Ed: The Rise of Foreign Funds That Distort Western Politics
10/1/202032 minutes, 48 seconds
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What's Happening in Belarus?

For almost the entirety of its nearly three decades of independence, the former Soviet country of Belarus has been led under an iron fist by autocrat Alexander Lukashenko. When Belarusians went to the polls last month to vote for their next president, few could have imagined the push for political change —and the movement of mass protests that would soon catapult the country into international headlines.As protests continue amidst a violent crackdown by the government, GMF’s Jonathan Katz is joined by Artyom Shraibman, a Belarusian political analyst based in Minsk to discuss what’s really going on in Belarus, what Vladimir Putin’s role is in all of this, and why this tiny country in Europe's east has so much geopolitical importance.This episode is the first of Out of Order’s new format. In which it will feature a rotating cast of GMF experts speaking with renowned voices in their respective fields. This discussion was taped on Friday, September 11.Show Notes:
9/18/202035 minutes, 55 seconds
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From Houston to Kiev, a Global Approach to Helping Veterans Return Home

The experience of military veterans returning home may often be thought of as a local or national issue - but it is universal.From studying Denmark’s veteran's transition resources and applying best practices back in the U.S., to the unlikely path that led him to help establish the first Ministry of Veteran’s Affairs in Ukraine, no one appreciates the global aspect of veteran’s affairs more than John Boerstler, CEO of the Houston-based Combined Arms and an alum of GMF’s Marshall Memorial Fellowship.A veteran of the U.S. Marine Corps himself, John tells the story of his journey from Iraq to Houston to Denmark to Ukraine (and various place in between) and what he learned about the veteran transition experience -- and how to improve it-- along the way.Note: This episode was taped earlier this year. 
8/14/202033 minutes, 8 seconds
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GMF + Intelligence Squared U.S. Debate: Nationalism Is a Force for Good.

FOR THE MOTIONColin DueckPolicy Professor & Author, "Age of Iron: On Conservative Nationalism”Prerna SinghPolitical Scientist & Author, “How Solidarity Works for Welfare”AGAINST THE MOTIONAndrew KeenInternet Entrepreneur & Author, "Tomorrows Versus Yesterdays"Elif ShafakActivist & Author, “The Bastard of Istanbul”THE HOSTJohn DonvanHost and ModeratorEditor’s Note: GMF’s “Post-Pandemic Order” series is on hiatus. In the meantime, watch our feed for more original podcast content. This IQ2 debate was produced in partnership with GMF's Brussels Forum and was originally streamed live in June 2020.
8/6/202051 minutes, 14 seconds
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Post-Pandemic Order with William Yang

In many ways, Taiwan has a front row seat, with the coronavirus pandemic, Beijing’s new national security law, and geopolitical uncertainty further impacting Taiwan’s already tenuous position. On this episode, GMF’s Julie Smith and Deutsche Welle’s East Asia Correspondent, William Yang, dive into the most relevant questions for the island today. What is the outlook for Taiwan’s future given Beijing’s the implementation of the new national security law in Hong Kong? What lessons did Taiwan learn from battling the coronavirus? Does the Taiwanese public have confidence in the United States’ ability to play a positive leadership role in the region? How have CCP actions in Xinjiang impacted opinions in Taiwan about the Chinese government and its the use of digital surveillance tools? This episode was taped on July 17 as a live virtual event.
7/23/202039 minutes, 1 second
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Post-Pandemic Order with Jüri Luik, Estonian Minister of Defense

When the pandemic spread to Europe, NATO was met with a unique challenge: it needed to assist with crisis response while also keeping its ever-important deterrence mission intact on its Eastern Flank. On this week’s episode of “Post-Pandemic Order,” Derek Chollet talks with a key leader in this effort, Estonian Minister of Defense Jüri Luik, about how NATO’s mission evolved (and what stayed the same) throughout the pandemic—and what he learned about the military’s role during this unforeseen public health crisis. Minister Luik also discusses the resurgence of great power competition and how to balance the new challenges posed by China and with the continuing ones posed by Estonia’s neighbor, Russia. The conversation also covers the state of European defense spending – a much contested topic in the transatlantic relationship-- and why military spending should not become another victim of the pandemic, despite a bleak economic forecast.
7/16/202044 minutes, 34 seconds
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Post-Pandemic Order with Representative Lauren Underwood

In this episode of Post-Pandemic Order, guest host Sudha David-Wilp sits down with Congresswoman Lauren Underwood of Illinois's 14th congressional district to discuss the long history of systemic racism in the United States, public health during the coronavirus pandemic, and generational perspectives on governing and leadership. Congresswoman Underwood is the youngest African American woman to be elected to the U.S. House of Representatives. Before joining Congress, Underwood had extensive public health experience as a registered nurse and as a member of the Obama administration in the Department of Health and Human Services.
7/7/202015 minutes, 50 seconds
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Post-Pandemic Order with Jared Cohen

The perils of disinformation are no new phenomenon, but the last few months have shown just how much damage it can do—and all the different ways it can be used. On this week’s episode, Jared Cohen, founder and CEO of Jigsaw—the independent unit at Google focused on building technology to address global security challenges—joins Derek Chollet to discuss the brave new world of the internet in the post-pandemic order. While disinformation once needed to be manufactured, conspiracy theories now grow organically and can then be exploited by both state and non-state actors in far-reaching ways. Who should be charged with stemming this tide, and who actually has the tools to be successful? According to Cohen, who also has a deep foreign policy background, the international order has two fronts: physical and digital. He explains his surprise (and what early adherents of social media platforms got wrong) with China’s ability to seamlessly adapt to the digital world—and what the coronavirus has exposed about the seeming advantages closed societies have in navigating technology while open societies have struggled.   The conversation also turns to American history and Cohen’s book, “Accidental Presidents: Eight Men Who Changed America,” and why the upcoming presidential election in the United States could very likely be a perfect storm—a combination of 1876, 2000, and 2020 all in one.
7/2/202036 minutes, 24 seconds
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Post-Pandemic Order with Amb. Richard Verma

No country took as severe lockdown measures as India at the height of the Coronavirus pandemic. According to this week’s guest, the next two weeks will tell the world whether the country of 1.4 billion got it right. This week on Post-Pandemic Order, former U.S. Ambassador to India, Rich Verma (2014-2017), joins Julie Smith to discuss India’s place in the post-pandemic world order. As Ambassador Verma puts it: no country has animated the U.S.-India relationship more than China, and that dynamic is certain to play out in the coming years. As the rift between U.S. and China widens, Verma describes how India is moving strategically to attract business and take a more active role on the world stage. This episode, which also covers the persistent tensions at the India-China border, was taped a week prior to the recent deadly clash in the Galwan River Valley.
6/18/202026 minutes, 37 seconds
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Post-Pandemic Order: A Conversation with Pete Buttigieg at Brussels Forum

Pete Buttigieg—the Democratic party's first openly gay presidential candidate and a veteran who served in Afghanistan—has gained international prominence. In a conversation originally streamed live as part of GMF’s Brussels Forum, Mayor Pete joined Derek Chollet for a wide-ranging conversation on race relations in America, the state of the Democratic party amidst the 2020 elections, U.S. foreign policy and what U.S. global leadership at a tumultuous moment.  What experiences stuck with him from the primary, and which issues resonated most with the voters he met on the campaign trail? Where is the future of U.S. leadership at home and abroad headed at this pivotal moment when a public health crisis and civil unrest are converging with a critical election season? This conversation was streamed live on June 4. GMF’s Brussels Forum will run through the end of the month, for more information or to register for upcoming sessions visit
6/11/202043 minutes, 54 seconds
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Post-Pandemic Order with Angus Lapsley

On this week’s episode of Post Pandemic Order, host Julie Smith talks with Angus Lapsley, director general strategy and international at the United Kingdom's Ministry of Defence. Security in a time of the coronavirus takes center stage in a conversation that touches on the United Kingdom and NATO's response to the coronavirus, the pandemic's effect on global stability and defense policy, nuclear arms control, as well as the U.K. and NATO response to emerging global threats. In his role, Angus Lapsley is responsible for defense policy on NATO and the Euro-Atlantic area, the defense implications of exiting the European Union, and our key bilateral defense relationships as well as strategic planning and strategic policy matters (e.g., nuclear deterrence, cyber, space, exports).
6/4/202025 minutes, 53 seconds
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Post-Pandemic Order with Meghan O'Sullivan

On this week’s episode of Post Pandemic Order, host Julie Smith discusses the coronavirus and disruptions in the global energy market with Meghan O’Sullivan the Jeane Kirkpatrick Professor of the Practice of International Affairs at the Harvard Kennedy School where she also directs the Geopolitics of Energy Project. The insight-packed 20 minute conversation dives into the pandemic’s effect on energy trends, the international energy transition, the state of international cooperation on energy issues, and much more. Meghan O’Sullivan served in the Bush administration as a special assistant to President George W. Bush and deputy national security advisor for Iraq and Afghanistan. Meghan has published a number of books, including her latest Windfall: How the New Energy Abundance Upends Global Politics and Strengthens America's Power. Meghan is also a member of the German Marshall Fund’s board. 
5/28/202024 minutes, 7 seconds
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Post-Pandemic Order with The Atlantic’s George Packer

In a new essay for The Atlantic, titled “We Are Living in a Failed State,” veteran writer George Packer observes: “If the pandemic really is a kind of war, it’s the first to be fought on this soil in a century and a half. Invasion and occupation expose a society’s fault lines, exaggerating what goes unnoticed or accepted in peacetime, clarifying essential truths, raising the smell of buried rot.”    In this episode, Packer joins Derek Chollet to discuss what the pandemic has revealed about an already-broken America and why instead of being “the great leveler,” it has resulted in a deepening of existing fault lines—a trend that Packer predicts will continue as the November elections approach.
5/21/202033 minutes, 15 seconds
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Post-Pandemic Order with Dr. Manuel Muñiz Secretary of State for Global Spain

Among the hardest hit in Europe, Spain is cautiously charting a way out of its strict countrywide lockdown. Manuel Muñiz, Secretary of State for Global Spain (a senior minister role in the country’s Foreign Ministry), is a key voice on how exactly Spain sets out on that path. This week on GMF’s Post-Pandemic Order podcast Muñiz joins Rachel Tausendfreund to give an inside look at how Spain handled its need for resources in the thick of its outbreak, and how it’s building a new resilience strategy. Muñiz also shares insights on how the pandemic has affected the larger international order. Before the pandemic, he says, we were seeing a breakdown in multilateralism and a weakening of the liberal democratic order. The coronavirus now presents two divergent paths, for Europe and globally: one that leads to an unequal, unsustainable economic recovery that will likely entrench political fracture; or one that prioritizes a digital-centered, inclusive, green recovery and creates more unity.
5/14/202023 minutes, 52 seconds
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Post-Pandemic Order: Rep. Elissa Slotkin on “Smart Stimulus” and Rethinking Defense

In this week’s episode of “Post-Pandemic Order,” we’re back in Washington where Derek Chollet is joined by Michigan congresswoman Elissa Slotkin (D-MI 8) whose extensive background in national security is informing the way she is fighting the coronavirus pandemic within her district and from a foreign policy and defense perspective. With Congress passing trillions of dollars in relief bills, Rep. Slotkin and Derek talk about the view from Capitol Hill, and how the U.S. balances a new web of public health, economic, and national security imperatives moving forward -- and why more strategic thinking and “smart stimulus” are essential.  Slotkin, who was part of the Pentagon’s response to the Ebola crisis before running for Congress, notes how the coronavirus has exposed unpreparedness at the global level to confront health crises at this scale; and says the entire international community needs to cooperate on a huge “lessons learned” process.
5/7/202033 minutes, 28 seconds
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Frontlines of Democracy: The Perfect Storm, Coronavirus, Corruption, and Freedom of the Press

The recent World Press Freedom Day was a reminder of the growing threats faced by journalists around the world. The coronavirus pandemic only exacerbates things, especially for media navigating places where corruption and democratic backsliding are on the rise as some leaders seek to take advantage of the moment for political or financial gain. On the second episode of Out of Order, produced with GMF’s Frontlines of Democracy Initiative, GMF’s Jonathan Katz talks with Drew Sullivan, publisher and founder of the Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project (OCCRP), about how the pandemic has affected an already difficult media landscape in countries like Russia, Serbia, and Hungary; and the potential impact on corruption and investigative journalism in the region.
5/6/202029 minutes, 6 seconds
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Bonus: COVID-19 and Democracy with The Democracy Group

We are excited to collaborate with our partners in The Democracy Group podcast network to bring you a bonus episode on how COVID-19 is impacting democracy in the United States and around the world. COVID-19 brings together several issues that have long been talked about separately — political polarization, misinformation, international cooperation, democratic norms and institutions, and many others. We dive into some of those issues in this episode and discuss how we can all work together to protect, and even strengthen, democracy as we emerge from the first wave of the pandemic. For more information about The Democracy Group podcast network, visit Thank you to Democracy Group Network Manager Katie DeFiore for producing this episode! Host: Jenna Spinelle - Communications Specialist at the McCourtney Institute for Democracy Host, Democracy Works @JennaSpinelle Guests: Luke Knittig, Senior Director of Communications at the McCain Institute Host, In The Arena @LukeKnittig Jeremi Suri, Mack Brown Distinguished Professor in the LBJ School of Public Affairs at the University of Texas Austin Host, This is Democracy @JeremiSuri Rachel Tausenfreund, Editorial Director at the German Marshall Fund of the United States Host, Out of Order @thousandfriend Weston Wamp, Senior Political Strategist and Consultant at Issue One Host, Swamp Stories @westonwamp
5/4/202054 minutes, 29 seconds
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Post-Pandemic Order: German Green Cem Özdemir on Germany’s Crisis Response, Democracy, and the Big Picture

Though this pandemic is first and foremost a health battle, the experience has also surfaced ideological clashes: autocracy vs. democracy; globalization vs. nationalism; left vs. right; interconnectedness vs. isolation. With Germany at the center of many of these big debates, prominent German parliamentarian Cem Özdemir—member of the Green political party-- joins GMF’s Derek Chollet to talk about the geopolitics of coronavirus and the view from Europe’s biggest economy. Özdemir, who recovered from the virus himself, discusses Europe’s “Corona Bonds” debate and the various forces pushing-and-pulling how Europe manages its own economic recovery. Among other topics, the conversation covers the threat of authoritarianism in this crisis and the case for liberalism to prevail. Plus: the critical questions about what the virus has exposed about interconnected societies—and what comes next.  
4/30/202028 minutes, 56 seconds
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Frontlines of Democracy: Fighting Coronavirus, Preserving Democracy

Fighting the Coronavirus, Preserving Democracy:  A Conversation with USAID’s Brock Bierman  While the headlines focus on the world’s larger nations, the pandemic is also hitting Europe’s far corners where resources and international attention are in shorter supply. On this episode of Out of Order, produced with GMF’s Frontlines of Democracy Initiative, GMF’s senior fellow Jonathan Katz sits down with Brock Bierman, USAID’s assistant administrator for Europe and Eurasia, to discuss how the United States via USAID is working around the clock to support the response to the pandemic in regions and countries, from Italy to Ukraine to Georgia. On top of the response to the immediate public health concerns, there are second-order challenges, included external disinformation campaigns and efforts by some governments to roll back democracy and rule of law under the fog of the coronavirus. Bierman discusses these alarming trends and the important steps that are being taken by USAID to bolster good governance, civil society, and independent media amidst an increasingly difficult environment. Links to Relevant Articles USAID Coronavirus Homepage: USAID Assistance to Italy: USAID Assistance to Ukraine: USAID Assistance to Georgia:
4/24/202026 minutes, 32 seconds
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Post-Pandemic Order: Former EU Trade Commissioner Cecilia Malmström on Europe’s Response and its Economic Future

Former EU trade commissioner and member of the Swedish Liberals party Cecilia Malmström joins GMF’s Rachel Tausendfreund this week to discuss Europe’s response to the pandemic and its economic future as the coronavirus crisis weighs heavily on all aspects of society. From an initial rush by countries to seal borders and ban exports, back to “better behavior” and cross-border cooperation, the EU response to the pandemic has had no shortage of ups and downs. Now with another economic crisis now looming over a continent that was hard hit in 2008, Malmström discusses what could happen next as EU leaders debate how to deal with an impending recession. Plus a look at how the global trade landscape will change as a result. Malmström, who also served as European Commissioner for Home Affairs and Sweden’s Minister of EU Affairs, also discusses her country’s different approach to navigating the pandemic and what life in Sweden is like now.
4/23/202027 minutes, 22 seconds
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Post-Pandemic Order: Senator Chris Murphy on America’s Global Response

On the first episode of GMF’s new mini-series “Post-Pandemic Order,” U.S. Senator Chris Murphy (D-CT) joins Julie Smith to talk America’s global response to the pandemic, how the pandemic could (and should) alter U.S. foreign policy thinking, and the role democracies play in dealing with crises. Senator Murphy, who recently introduced new legislation with Senator Mitt Romney reaffirming U.S. commitment to global health security, also responds to the White House’s plan to stop funding the WHO and shares his perspectives on China’s foreign policy and how the pandemic could play into its long-term goals. Links:  Senator Murphy’s op-ed in Foreign Policy: The U.S. Government Must Prepare Now for the Next Pandemic Reuters: Lawmakers Look to Reaffirm U.S. Commitment to Global Health, Amid Coronavirus GMF T-Take: How Are China and Russia Responding to and Capitalizing on the Coronavirus Crisis? Lawfare: Understanding Hungary’s Authoritarian Response to the Pandemic
4/16/202021 minutes, 50 seconds
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Pandemic Playbook: How Beijing is Shaping its Own Story— and Learning from Moscow.

The Chinese government appears to be taking a page from Russia’s playbook-- by deploying disinformation to both distract and divide, it’s working to cover up its own shortcomings in responding to the initial outbreak of the coronavirus and attempting to damage U.S. credibility. Beijing’s more confrontational posture on COVID-19 and use of disinformation represents a clear departure from its past behavior. On this episode, Alliance for Securing Democracy co-directors Laura Rosenberger and Zack Cooper dive into the new information battle over COVID-19, which narratives China is pushing and why, and what it could mean next for China’s global strategy. How do China’s tactics mirror Russia’s and what does the end game look like? The Alliance for Securing Democracy recently launched a new iteration of its Hamilton 2.0 dashboard, which now track Chinese state media and social media messaging across its state-run social media accounts.
4/10/202028 minutes, 15 seconds
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Perspectives on the Pandemic

As the coronavirus upends life in ways that seemed unimaginable just a few weeks ago, governments are responding differently to the crisis. From border closures, export bans, and stay at home orders, decisions by leaders around the globe will surely set off a wave of political and geopolitical implications that are far from being fully realized. In this week’s episode of Out of Order, GMF experts around Europe-- from DC to Paris to Ankara to Brussels to Berlin and Warsaw-- are sharing first-person, local perspectives on how the crisis is being handled and how – or whether-- nationalism is being leveraged by governments at an unprecedented moment.
3/27/202045 minutes, 5 seconds
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Reporting Across the Pond Pt. 2

Out of Order is excited to present part two of our first collaborative episode series, Reporting Across the Pond, produced in coordination with the Europe Desk, a podcast from the BMW Center for German and European Studies at Georgetown University. Out of Order host Peter Sparding connects with Juliane Schäuble, the U.S. Correspondent for “Der Tagesspiegel”, to discuss her experience covering the White House, the U.S. primary election cycle and the current COVID-19 pandemic. Schäuble talks about translating U.S. politics for a German audience, working a primary press briefing, and reporting during the pandemic. If you haven't already, make sure to tune into Reporting Across the Pond Pt. 1, featuring a conversation between the Europe Desk's Alistair Somerville and Brent Goff of Deutsche Welle News.  
3/25/202012 minutes, 4 seconds
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Reporting Across the Pond Pt. 1

Out of Order is excited to present our first collaborative episode series, Reporting Across the Pond, produced in coordination with the Europe Desk, a podcast from the BMW Center for German and European Studies at Georgetown University. In this two-part series, we will be talking both to a European journalist reporting on the U.S. and a U.S. reporter dispatching from Europe. This first episode, produced by The Europe Desk, features Brent Goff, host of The Day with Brent Goff on Deutsche Welle News, who joined host Alistair Somerville from Berlin to discuss his career reporting on European and international issues. He discussed the role of social media, the challenges of reporting in a fair and balanced way, and Deutsche Welle's unique vantage point reporting in 30 languages from Berlin and around the world. Stay tuned for Pt. 2 where we speak to a European journalist about covering the U.S. election cycle and the rapid spread of COVID-19 in the U.S.
3/19/202028 minutes, 38 seconds
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Turkey, Europe, and the Battle Over Idlib

Join GMF hosts Rachel Tausendfreund and Sydney Simon for a discussion on the crisis in Idlib. From Washington, Sydney speaks with GMF senior fellow Jonathan Katz on the confluence of Syrian, Russian and Turkish interests in the area, the stance of the United States and the humanitarian stakes at hand. We then head to our Berlin office where Rachel dives into the big picture implications of the crisis and its effect on EU-Turkey relations with GMF experts Jessica Bither, Migration Fellow & Senior Program Officer, and Ozgur Unluhisarcikli, the Director of GMF's Ankara Office.
3/9/202036 minutes, 54 seconds
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Shock to the System?

President Macron’s observations about NATO’s “brain death” jolted Europe, eliciting a spectrum of reactions across the continent-- from ambivalence to annoyance to hysteria. Four months after, now that the dust has settled, what did Macron’s NATO comments reveal about Europe’s own cohesion on defense and where do things stand between France and its neighbors? Picking up on one of Out of Order’s ongoing conversations, this week’s episode brings perspectives from Germany, France, and Poland around the table for a debate on what the NATO dust-up says about Europe’s diverging strategic cultures, and how the strategy may (or may not) change for the alliance itself. In this week’s episode, GMF Paris deputy director Martin Quencez, GMF’s Europe program director Jan Techau, and Michal Baranowski, GMF’s Warsaw director join host Rachel Tausendfreund this week from Berlin.
3/5/202030 minutes, 58 seconds
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Westful Thinking

When the Berlin Wall fell and the USSR crumbled, an era of excessive optimism set in. It was a period where it seemed like liberal democracies would lead a straight march to global peace. Three decades later, Thomas Kleine-Brockhoff says that, somewhere down the line, we took a hard turn toward excessive pessimism – or Immerschlimmerismus—the German word describing a feeling that things keep getting worse and worse. As the values that once bound western democracies fall by the wayside, is the concept of “the West” as we know it dead in the water? Kleine-Brockhoff, head of GMF’s Berlin office is the author of the recent book “The World Needs the West“ (Die Welt braucht den Westen, in its original German)  joins Out of Order to discuss why a system that once felt rock solid now seems to be, well, out of order—and whether a course correction is possible.  At the beginning of this episode, we spoke to Alistair Somerville, a host at The Europe Desk, a podcast from the BMW Center for German and European Studies at Georgetown University. We love The Europe Desk here at Out of Order and think you should take a moment to listen:  Click Here to Listen
2/21/202024 minutes, 37 seconds
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Mediterranean Cities on the Frontlines of Migration

More people today have been forcibly displaced from their homes than at any time since World War ll. According to the UN, a record 70 million people around the world are living as refugees or are displaced in their own countries worldwide. The Mediterranean region has been at the center of intense debates over migration since 2015, when an unprecedented number of refugees and migrants – many fleeing the war in Syria and conflicts elsewhere in the Middle East and Africa – arrived on Europe’s shores. Five years later, the debate continues as different countries and communities take different approaches to grappling with the issue. In the season 3 finale, Out of Order travels to Marseilles, France to explore migration in the Mediterranean with key players in the region and, specifically, how the cities on the frontlines are managing and adapting to new realities. Show note: The interviews for this podcast were taped at the 19th meeting of the German Marshall Fund’s Mediterranean Strategy Group, which met in Marseilles earlier this year. The gathering was focused on the key role cities play in confronting the challenges and opportunities of migration in the region. For more reading on recent developments in the region, see the links below.  New episodes of Out of Order will resume in January 2020.
12/23/201932 minutes, 58 seconds
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The Slow Burning Revolution of the German Party System

Germany’s center-left Social Democrats (SPD) recently elected two new leaders, Norbert Walter-Borjans and Saskia Esken. Both are strongly critical of the already-shaky “grand coalition” with Chancellor Angela Merkel’s conservative CDU and this surprising election result has thrown the future of German politics into question—again. At the same time, the Greens and the far-right AfD are growing in popularity and vying for power. Is the German political system going through a “slow-burning revolution?" This week on Out of Order, two of GMF’s resident explainers of German politics, Jan Techau and Sudha David-Wilp, dissect the latest drama out of Europe’s largest economy-- why it’s just starting to get interesting at home and how it will affect Germany’s role in Europe and the world.
12/6/201921 minutes, 53 seconds
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Kremlin Confidential

In the information wars, controlling the narrative is key. From Hong Kong to 5G to US politics, the Russian government has made no illusions about its willingness to bend reality to get what it wants. What is that narrative and is it really making an impact?  And why does a professional disinformation tracker think that the overt information – news spread to the world from state-run outlets like Sputnik and RT—can tell us far more than the covert bots and trolls that became so infamous in 2016?   This week on Out of Order, Bret Schafer, a disinformation expert with GMF’s Alliance for Securing Democracy discusses his new project tracking Russian global narratives and where the Kremlin is succeeding, how the disinformation landscape is changing, and what it matters.
11/16/201925 minutes, 44 seconds
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"The Best Year in European History”: Timothy Garton Ash on 1989

Extraordinary things happened in 1989. The Berlin Wall fell. Europe finally came close to being “whole and free.” But that was not where history ended. The subsequent rise of an “anti-liberal counterrevolution” showed that the liberal internationalists’ agenda was far from bullet-proof.  The tipping point, according to historian Timothy Garton Ash, was Ukraine’s 2004 Orange Revolution—when Putin woke up and found the West at his door. Renowned historian Garton Ash joins “Out of Order” for a reflection on the legacy of Europe’s not-so-distant history: what the West got so wrong, China’s 1989 connection, and whether a liberal agenda is viable in today’s politics.   This episode was taped as GMF’s Brussels Forum. A transcribed version of the discussion is also published online as part of GMF’s 1989 publication. A second episode on 1989’s technological legacy will be released next month.
11/1/201918 minutes, 30 seconds
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The Situation in Syria: Dispatches from Ankara and Washington

Since President Trump announced the withdrawal of US troops from Syria, realities on the ground have moved at breakneck speed. To make sense of it all,  Out of Order caught up with GMF experts in Ankara and Washington. First, senior fellow Jonathan Katz joins discusses the situation as it has unfolded—and its vast consequences-- and how it’s playing out politically and geopolitically. Later in the episode, GMF’s Ankara office director Ozgur Unluhisarcikli joins Out of Order to discuss Turkey’s relationship with the US and Europe, and how it has set the stage for the situation we see today. **Show Note: This episode was taped on Thursday, October 17 and does not account for news developments that have taken place since.**
10/18/201931 minutes
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Will Cities Save Us From Climate Change?

As frustration with inaction on climate change at the national and global level boils over, cities of all sizes and geographies just might hold the solutions we need to take action on global warming. In this episode of Out of Order, two mayors from opposite sides of the Atlantic—Cambridge, MA and Heidelberg, Germany-- are at the table to discuss the role of cities in confronting climate change and how their respective communities are innovating in the face of national gridlock. Mayor Marc McGovern and Mayor Eckart Würzner are both part of the GMF Cities project, Energy Allies, a four-city dialogue that fosters strategic partnerships and collaboration between local civil society and government leaders.    
10/3/201924 minutes, 57 seconds
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Democracy Works presents: China’s Threat to Democracies Around the World

We're interrupting the Out of Order stream this week to share a new episode of the "Democracy Works" podcast -- a project of Penn State's McCourtney Institute for Democracy and WPSU. In this episode, renowned democracy expert Larry Diamond talks with Democracy Works' Jenna Spinelle about China’s model of authoritarian capitalism and the effect it's having around the globe on democracies and other authoritarian actors.   Find other Democracy Works episodes at or wherever you listen to your podcasts. 
9/25/201941 minutes, 5 seconds
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Breaking the National Security Council

John Bolton, President Trump’s 3rd National Security Adviser, has made his exit. With change afoot (or maybe not) two of the most well-positioned voices on all things NSC—John Gans and Derek Chollet-- are at the Out of Order table to discuss what went wrong for Bolton, how the national security process has been broken under the Trump administration, and what could come next for a yet-to-be-named successor. John Gans is the author of White House Warriors, a new book on the National Security Council, current director of communications at the University of Pennsylvania's Perry World House global policy center, and a GMF Fellow. Among other roles, he served as Chief Speechwriter for Defense Secretary Ash Carter. Derek Chollet is the German Marshall Fund’s Executive Vice President. His previous roles include Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs and Senior Director for Strategic Planning on the National Security Council staff under President Obama. Bios: Derek Chollet - John Gans - Show Notes: White House Warriors: How the National Security Council Transformed the American Way of War” How John Bolton Broke the National Security Council (New York Times) John Bolton Will Not End Well (Defense One)
9/13/201930 minutes, 11 seconds
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Divided We Stand

U.S. society is as divided as it has been in modern history. Americans cannot agree on the past, and politicians refuse to face the future. Political animus has replaced compromise and bipartisanship is the norm in Washington, as a divisive President seeks a second term. With election season ramping up and political divisions on display, two veterans of U.S. politics-- Margaret Carlson, Columnist at The Daily Beast, and Mitch Landrieu, the former Mayor of New Orleans and founder of E Pluribus Unum--  joined Out of Order for an insightful conversation on the state of U.S. political discourse, how society became so fractured and where some solutions might be found. Above all: Is there a way out of this mess?   Related Reading: Margaret Carlson's article, referenced in the episode:   Recent Op-ed from Mitch Landrieu: Mitch Landrieu’s Confederate statue speech: This conversation is one of a series recorded by GMF’s Rachel Tausendfreund on the sidelines of GMF’s Brussels Forum earlier this summer.
9/5/201935 minutes, 41 seconds
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What’s Next for North Macedonia?

After a diplomatic breakthrough in the turbulent Balkans, the Republic of North Macedonia has a new name and its sights set on integration with the European Union and NATO. What is the path ahead for the potential future NATO member state, how do the complicated politics of the region affect its prospects, and what is America’s role in all of this? At the German Marshall Fund's Brussels Forum held earlier this summer, GMF’s senior fellow Jonathan Katz sat down with two preeminent voices in the region-- Radmila Šekerinska, North Macedonia’s Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Defense; along with Gordana Delic, the director of GMF’s Belgrade-based Balkan Trust for Democracy—to discuss these topics and more.
8/1/201926 minutes, 54 seconds
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Has the Transatlantic Relationship Been Irreparably Damaged?

Has the Transatlantic Relationship Been Irreparably Damaged? At the most recent Brussels Forum, GMF partnered with Intelligence Squared U.S., for a lively debate on the future of the U.S. and Europe’s special relationship amidst polarized politics and tensions over security and trade on both sides of the Atlantic. Through this special Out of Order episode, we are excited to feature our live broadcast recording of the debate. Among the debaters: John Mearsheimer − American Political Scientist & Professor, University of Chicago, Constanze Stelzenmüller − Senior Fellow, Brookings Institution, Carla Norrlof − Professor, University of Toronto Federiga Bindi − Professor, University of Rome Tor Vergata.   Presented in partnership with Intelligence Squared    
7/18/201951 minutes, 9 seconds
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From Paris to Warsaw, How Europe is Answering to "America First"

The Trump administration’s hard-nosed approach to the European Union has left leaders across the Atlantic questioning where the relationship with the U.S. is headed. According to GMF’s president Dr. Karen Donfried, a tour of Europe shows how the outlook on America changes based on where you sit. While the talk in Paris is all about “strategic autonomy,” Warsaw is buzzing about “strategic embrace.”   This week on Out of Order, Dr. Donfried sits down with GMF’s Peter Sparding to discuss the three strategic Europes—and what the differences in attitudes reveals about European cohesion and also the future of the transatlantic relationship. The conversation is based on an article by Dr. Donfried that appeared in Defense One earlier this year.   Article:
5/30/201930 minutes, 20 seconds
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Europe’s Make or Break Election?

On May 23-26 citizens in all (still) 28 EU countries will go to the polls and select the 751 members of the European Parliament. The Parliament is the only directly elected EU institution and this year is being framed as a make-or-break election. Both by those who want to make it better, and those who want to break it. A strong populist and Euroskeptic block is expected to result; they could even be the second largest group in the parliament. Rachel Tausendfreund talks to Rosa Balfour, a senior fellow with GMF‘s Europe program based in Brussels, about the populist challenge and the different shades of nationalism and populism across Europe, and how the outcome will shape the EU and national politics for the next five years.
5/22/201916 minutes, 16 seconds
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System Failure: The U.S.-Turkey Feud and What’s Next for the S-400 and F-35s

Ankara and Washington are locked in a game of chicken. With Turkey refusing to budge over its purchase of the NATO-incompatible S-400 missile defense system from Russia, the U.S. is upping the stakes with the threat of sanctions and ejection from the lucrative F-35 fighter jet program. The implications of this could be far reaching not just for Turkey and the U.S., but could shift the geopolitical balance in far-reaching ways.     Does this mark a new low in an already volatile relationship? And is there a way to turn the feud around?  This week, Out of Order digs in on what is going on in Turkey, from S-400’s to President Erdogan’s domestic political gamble, with GMF’s Ankara office director Ozgur Unluhisarcikli and VP of Foreign Policy Ian Lesser.  
5/9/201939 minutes, 39 seconds
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Two Presidential Candidates Walk Into a Bar

More than five years after the Euromaidan, Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko is battling for his political life against Volodymyr Zelensky – a comedian and political newcomer who has emerged as the favorite to win Sunday’s runoff. The story of political outsider-turned-president may be a familiar one for anyone who has watched “Servant of the People” a comedy (now available on Netflix) in which Zelensky plays just that—a teacher thrust into the presidency unexpectedly. In real life though, Zelensky’s plans for leading Ukraine remain uncertain against an ongoing conflict with Russia, economic stagnation, and internal corruption.   On this episode of Out of Order, GMF’s resident Ukraine watcher and senior fellow, Jonathan Katz, weighs in on what’s at stake this weekend as Ukrainians cast their votes.  Katz travelled to Ukraine last month as an election monitor during the first round of voting, and he also chairs the Transatlantic Task Force on Elections and Civil Society in Ukraine.
4/19/201922 minutes, 25 seconds
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NATO at 70

Nearly seventy years ago to the day, President Harry Truman signed the North Atlantic Treaty and established NATO. Ahead of an unprecedented address to a Joint session of Congress by NATO’s Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg and ministerial meetings in Washington, Out of Order explores the state of NATO and the key issues animating defense debates from DC to Paris to Warsaw. Around the table this week in Washington: Defense and Security fellow Steven Keil; Michal Baranowski, GMF’s Warsaw office director; and Martin Quencez, fellow and senior program office based in Paris.
4/1/201935 minutes, 51 seconds
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Silent Revolution: The Transatlantic Policy Debate Over AI

From AI to 5G, the innovations that pose unprecedented opportunities also pose a risk to democracy—and there is no consensus yet on how to solve this puzzle. This week on Out of Order, Karen Kornbluh, director of GMF’s new Digital Innovation and Democracy Initiative, and Michel Servoz, special adviser to European Commission President Juncker for robotics, AI, and the future of labor, discuss the frontier technologies changing society, differences in the U.S. and European tech policy debates, and why bridging the Silicon Valley-Washington-Brussels gap is essential.
3/15/201930 minutes, 12 seconds
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Huawei or the Highway

The controversy over Chinese telecoms giant Huawei and the potential for it to unlock an unprecedented level of access to Europe’s critical infrastructure through 5G has been at the center of headlines around the world. But how does Huawei’s 5G plan actually work, and why does it have policymakers and technologists on both sides of the Atlantic so concerned? Out of Order’s newest host and deputy director of GMF’s Asia program, Sharon Stirling, is joined by two experts on China-US-Europe relations, Janka Oertel and Jonas Parello Plesner to get to the bottom of the Huawei debate, how it's playing out between the US and Europe (and within Europe), and what to watch for as the situation rapidly changes. 
3/1/201930 minutes, 35 seconds
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What to Watch in 2019, Part Two

In the concluding episode of the two-part “What to Watch” feature, the Out of Order roundtable discusses another raft of issues that they’ll be tracking this year, now that we have made it through a shutdown and almost two eventful months. We focus this time on Europe, the United States, and global democracy challenges. There is impending Brexit drama with implications of fracturing politics across the European continent,  and key national elections in Poland and regional elections in Germany. In the U.S. there will be a raucous U.S. presidential primary election cycle and an administration that is likely to get more chaotic. We also discuss democratic energy globally and the challenges and opportunities at the intersection of tech and democracy. Finally, some colleagues chime in on key challenges surrounding election security, what hope there might be in the ongoing war in Yemen, and Russian aggression in and around the Black Sea.  
2/22/201942 minutes, 3 seconds
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Washington and The Wall: A Conversation on Immigration with The New York Times’ Michael Shear

A month into 2019, the fight over immigration policy is without resolution as the White House battles with Democrats over funding for a wall on the southern border. The President is set to deliver his State of the Union address to a divided chamber—and nation. Immigration is expected to feature prominently as prospects of another government shutdown loom.  New York Times White House correspondent Michael Shear joins Out of Order’s Peter Sparding for a timely conversation about immigration politics and how it all got to this point—from the origins of Trump’s fixation on building a wall, to the many characters driving the debate, and where the actual policy stands.
2/5/201935 minutes, 26 seconds
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What to Watch in 2019, Part One

It’s time to say “Goodbye, Au Revoir, and Auf Wiedersehen” to 2018. It was another significant year for the transatlantic relationship: Brexit chaos and the U.S. midterms, fake news and a Facebook reckoning, Merkel 2.0, and the Macron backlash. Out of Order recounts the year’s consequential moments for relations between Europe and the United States, and how this all sets the stage for 2019. In the podcast adaption of the new blog post, “What to Watch in 2019,” the Out of Order hosts—with cameos by various German Marshall Fund experts from around the world—weigh in on what to expect in 2019 when it comes to transatlantic trade battles, China, and U.S. and European domestic politics in Part One of this two-part special. Note: Out of Order will be taking a break for the holidays! We will return the week of January 14th with Part Two of our "What to Watch in 2019"
12/21/201830 minutes, 31 seconds
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Germany's Next Merkel?

The Angela Merkel era is ending. The weekend of December 7-8 in Hamburg the curtains draw half closed and we will see who officially waits in the wings to take over. Currently, there are three candidates are vying for that position. Angela Merkel became chairwoman of the Christian Democratic party in 2000 and Chancellor five years later. In what many see as the first step of a tactical retreat, Angela Merkel announced in late October that she would not seek reelection to head her party, though she will remain in her spot at the head the government until the next elections in 2021 – or at least presumably. Because of course as soon as someone else takes over leadership of her party, Germany will have a new heir (or heiress) apparent. The cast of characters is interesting: The ambitious Jens Spahn,  currently serving as health minister in the government; the woman generally viewed as Merkel’s anointed heir and perhaps a kind of Merkel 2.0, Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer, and finally Friedrich Merz, an old arch rival of Merkel’s, who abandoned politics for finance after he was elbowed out by her in 2002. Jan Techau and Sudha David-Wilp join Rachel Tausendfreund to discuss the three candidates, their chances, and what any of these candidates might mean for Europe and Germany’s leadership globally. Think and Tank links: Jan Techau tanks the German debate on the Global Compact Sudha David-Wilp talks about the Visegrad Insight publication "Central European Futures" Rachel Tausendfreund recommends the Guardian long read “How colonial violence came home: the ugly truth of the first world war” 
12/6/201826 minutes, 44 seconds
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Thanksgiving Special: The Berlin Thanksgiving Episode

  While everyone in DC is off for the holiday, Rachel Tausendfreund is joined by two colleagues in Berlin to discuss some recent events in global politics that we can appreciate, or in the holiday lingo, be thankful for. Maryna Raklei, who works as a program officer in Berlin on projects supporting Belarussian civil society and used to work as a journalist in Minsk, talks about a successful crowdfunding campaign in support of critical press in Russia, and a new official Ukrainian church. Jan Techau, the director of GMF’s Europe Program, talks about positive spending developments in Berlin and hopeful notes in U.S. society. Rachel gives thanks for the success of anti-gerrymandering measures in Michigan and elsewhere in the U.S. in the recent Midterms. Stay tuned for next week as we resume programming, shifting our focus back to the state of the European Union with an episode dealing solely with France and Germany. We hope that all of our U.S. based listeners are enjoying the Thanksgiving holiday with family and friends.  
11/23/201817 minutes, 36 seconds
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America Voted. What’s Next for Foreign Policy?

American voters have spoken and Democrats will soon control the U.S. House of Representatives. How might this new political reality at home affect the Trump administration's policies abroad? What levers will the Democrats pull, if any, when it comes to oversight of a disruptive global agenda? GMF’s Derek Chollet and Jamie Fly join Out of Order to weigh in on how America's global posture will -- or won't -- change and what's at stake for transatlantic relations.  New Feature: We want to hear from you. Engage with the Out of Order team through our new listener inbox at [email protected]  Send us your thoughts, questions, comments, and suggestions for future topics you'd like to hear us cover. We will feature select input on upcoming Out of Order episodes. Speakers Derek Chollet | Executive Vice President and Senior Advisor for Security and Defense Policy Jamie Fly | Senior Fellow and Director, Future of Geopolitics, Asia Program Washington, DC Moderator Sydney Simon | Media and Communications Specialist Show Notes:  "An Inflection Point for America's Democratic Future" - Derek Chollet  "Do Not Look for Foreign Policy Change" - Jamie Fly  With Trump Shackled at Home, Europeans Fear More Disruption Abroad - Reuters   Germany, Europe see little hope for Trump policy change after US midterm election - Deutsche Welle 
11/9/201820 minutes, 43 seconds
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Trading Jabs: What's Next for Trump's Trade Battles with China and Europe?

Trade is back in the spotlight, and the U.S. is at the center of a building international showdown. A combative economic agenda is now being realized as the Trump administration disrupts trade relations with allies and adversaries alike. From the torpedoed TPP, new NAFTA, tariffs on steel, aluminum, and potentially autos, and even suggestions that the U.S. could leave the WTO – who wins and who loses in this new landscape, and where can constructive compromises be made? Is there a common transatlantic trade agenda in dealing with China, and are we heading for a US-China economic decoupling or even a new Cold War? On the latest episode of GMF’s Out of Order podcast, we’ll deconstruct the current state of international trade—from micro to macro-- with the foremost expert on the matter, Georgetown law professor Jennifer Hillman. Hillman has served as a member of the WTO’s Appellate Body, as commissioner of the US International Trade Commission, and as General Counsel at the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative, among many other roles. Also joining host Peter Sparding this week in Washington, GMF’s senior transatlantic fellow Andrew Small, resident expert on China’s foreign and economic policy. Think or Tank Links: Andrew Small: Vice President Mike Pence's Remarks on the Administration's Policy Towards China Link Here Jennifer Hillman: Failure to Adjust How Americans Got Left Behind in the Global Economy by Edward Alden Link Here Peter Sparding: The Rigging of American Politics by Ezra Klein Link Here Bonus Content: Testimony Of Jennifer Hillman Professor From Practice, Georgetown University Law Center Before The U.S.-China Economic And Review Security Commission Hearing On U.S. Tools To Address Chinese Market Distortions Link Here
10/26/20181 hour, 2 minutes, 4 seconds
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The State of European (dis)Union Pt 1: Central and Eastern Europe

It’s back! The Out of Order podcast returns to the airwaves. Thirty years after the fall of the wall, the reemergence of authoritarianism and illiberalism in Central and Eastern Europe is as pressing as ever and threatens to divide an already shaky EU. With Article 7 proceedings triggered against Poland and Hungary, and continued efforts by the Kremlin to disrupt European unity, what are the implications of an undemocratic Central Europe for the world’s largest economic bloc, what is the next move in Brussels, and where does the U.S. factor in all of this?   In this week’s episode GMF’s Jonathan Katz and Rachel Tausendfreund in Washington are joined by Corinna Horst in Brussels to discuss the state of European (dis)Union in Europe, especially its eastern states. And after that [], Jonathan sits down with three people who are deeply familiar with the politics of the Visegrad group: Slovakia’s former ambassador to the US and Hungary Rastislav Kacer; Jakub Wisniewski, the former Polish ambassador to the OECD and head of foreign policy planning at the Polish foreign ministry; and Robert Vass, the current president of GLOBSEC. Subscribe to Out of Order on iTunes, Spotify, GooglePlay, Soundcloud, Stitcher, TuneIn or where ever you get your podcasts.
10/11/20181 hour, 7 minutes, 34 seconds
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Update: State of Sanctions and Season 2 Teaser

In July on Out of Order, we discussed what’s on the line for multilateral sanctions against Iran in the wake of President Trump’s withdrawal from the JCPOA (better known as the Iran Nuclear Deal). [Episode Link] Now the stakes have been raised even further; last week, the remaining members of the nuclear deal announced that they will create a new payment infrastructure, allowing countries to sideswipe U.S. regulations and continue doing business with Iran. With the next set of U.S. sanctions set to go into effect in just over a month from now, we’ve decided it’s a good time for a primer on this escalating battle of sanctions. To put the pieces together, we’re back at the table with GMF’s resident illicit-finance and sanctions expert Joshua Kirschenbaum to talk special purpose vehicles, Iran, and the future of U.S. sanctions. In addition, stay tuned for the debut of Out of Order's second season, set to premiere in the next few weeks. This season will feature a variety of experts and topics over regularly programmed episodes set on a two-week schedule. 
10/5/201813 minutes, 11 seconds
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The Battle for the Future: Transatlantic Values and Technological Progress

  During the height of the cold war, the space race between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. was as much an ideological struggle as it was a battle of technological exploration. When the U.S. first stepped foot on the moon, many framed the historical moment as an essential victory of democracy over communism. This melding of ideology and technological progress plays out in our own time through a struggle for design and control over the next wave of invention and innovation. In our interconnected world and at the precipice of machine learning and artificial intelligence, values play an increasingly existential role in the future of tech. But who controls these values comes down to who can harness these new technologies, pitting us in yet another battle for the future.  In this episode, Out of Order will cover the current state of technological progress, who is ahead and where, how the transatlantic community can promote design and control of new technological developments, and the effects which non-liberal actors can have on the future of tech. Are the U.S.–European values sufficiently in synch to allow for global leadership in the norms and rules that will govern the future? Do we even realize we’re in a battle for the future?   Join the President of the German Marshall Fund, Karen Donfried, Vice President of Global Government Relations at MediaMath and GMF non-resident fellow, Daniel Sepulveda,  GMF Fellow, Amy Studdart, and our host Peter Sparding as they discuss these questions and more on the tenth edition of the Out of Order podcast.
8/8/201853 minutes, 24 seconds
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Europe and United States fight over Iran, is the United States sanctioning itself in the foot?

In Episode IX of Out of Order Rachel Tausendfreund talks with GMF fellows Douglas Hengel, Joshua Kirschenbaum, and Andrew Small about transatlantic fights with Iran and the future of sanctions The sanctions regime against Iran that led to the JCPOA is widely considered one of the most successful implementations of sanctions ever, and also the EU’s biggest foreign policy success. But in May President Trump announced that the United States would withdraw from agreement, leaving allies and rivals scrambling to respond. Europe has announced its intentions to preserve the deal and has promised to come up with a plan by November 2019, signaling a willingness to defy U.S. sanctions to do so — and Russia and China are all too happy to cooperate. The foreign ministers of France, Germany, and the United Kingdom, met with their counterparts from China, Russia, and Iran in Vienna in early July to continue work on their JCPOA rescue plans. With GMF fellows Douglas Hengel, Joshua Kirschenbaum, and Andrew Small, Rachel Tausendfreund discusses the role sanctions have played in the global order and the problem of dollar dominance and potential U.S. overreach. Will the EU be able to set up an alternative to shield its companies from secondary sanctions? How does China stand to benefit? And if U.S. allies are able to team up with China and Russia and defy U.S. sanctions, will this be the beginning of the end of unilateral sanction power, or of sanctions generally? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Think or Tanks: Josh: Doug: Andrew: Rachel: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For more read a TTake by Doug, Josh, and Andrew on the Iran deal options: “Three Views on U.S. Withdrawal from Iran Deal, and Europe and China’s Response“ Three Views on U.S. Withdrawal from Iran Deal, and Europe ... If We Keep Our Cool, We Can Make it to New Negotiations And Joshua Kirschenbaum’s policy brief : “The United States and EU Can Still Avoid Conflict Over Iran Sanctions”
7/19/201841 minutes, 25 seconds
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North Korea, the U.S. and a Bunch of Nervous Allies

President Trump’s overtures to North Korea represent perhaps the most significant foreign policy development so far during his administration. In addition to marking a departure in how authoritarian regimes are treated by the world’s major power, recent developments have the potential to transform the balance of power in Asia. While there is some relief after the days of "fire and fury" threats, U.S. allies around the world are also nervous. Host Peter Sparding talks to Andrew Small and Jamie Fly in Washington, and Janka Oertel in Berlin, about the summit and its implications. After recapping and assessing the summit and its results, the discussion opens with a tour around the region, as the panel discusses how recent developments look from China, Japan, South Korea, and the United States. Is China the main beneficiary of the new thaw between Washington and Pyeongyang? How does this fit into the larger U.S. strategy towards the Asia-Pacific or is there no coherent strategy? What is driving the debate in South Korea? Does Japan worry about being cut out from any deal? What are the North Koreans hoping to achieve? The debate then shifts to the question of whether Trump’s approach to foreign policy makes the world safer for authoritarians. What are the implications of the president’s behavior towards allies vis-à-vis the attitude shown towards Kim Jong-un? What does it say about the determinants and persistence of U.S. foreign policy that public opinion among supporters of the president seems to be shifting quickly? How do countries in Europe view the developments and do they factor into their own calculations about the U.S. as a reliable partner? Finally, Peter asks each of the panelists for their predictions of how things will play out over the coming months and years.
6/19/201846 minutes, 4 seconds
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Do we really need common values? On NATO and Turkey

We are back! After an extended spring break, the Out of Order crew is back in the studio to bring you informative and relevant speakers and ideas, exploring how the world was, is and will be ordered. In this episode, we discuss whether the West is a club built on common values or shared interests. Specifically, we look at the case of NATO and Turkey and consider both how democratic backsliding affects and should affect their relationship. NATO’s founding treaty refers includes a statement of common values in its preamble, mentioning the “freedom, common heritage, and civilization of their peoples” and that it is “founded on the principles of democracy, individual liberty, and rule of law.” But how important have these common principles really been for NATO? Is it really a democratic, liberal organization, or is it simply a security alliance against the (then) Soviet Union and today Russia? We discuss the current political situation in Turkey, the prospects for reform and NATO’s proper role in pushing against anti-democratic developments. We also discuss the nature of NATO as an alliance and its history of accepting less-than-democratic members. Co-host Rachel Tausendfreund was joined for the episode by Özgür Unluhisarcikli, Director of GMF’s Ankara office and Jan Techau, the Director of GMF’s Europe program out of the Berlin office. Thinks and Tanks: Özgür’s think: Competitive Authoritarianism: Hybrid Regimes after the Cold War (2010) by Steven Levitsky and Lucan A. Way. Link: Jan’s think: The Impossible Presidency: The Rise and Fall of America's Highest Office (2017) by Jeremi Suri and “How the Presidency became Impossible” by John Dickerson in The Atlantic Link: Rachel’s think: the May/June issue of the Berlin Policy Journal “And Yet it Moves." Specifically the interview with former German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble Link:
5/24/201828 minutes, 42 seconds
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Live From GMF's Young Professionals Summit: What is the Liberal International Order Anyway?

Over the last years, policy makers on both sides of the Atlantic have become increasingly concerned that the Liberal International Order is in danger. At first, threats to this Western-led order seemed to emanate mostly from the outside, as rising powers such as China and Russia challenged the existing order. But with the Brexit referendum and the election of Donald Trump to the U.S. presidency, it has become clear that there are plenty of actors within our societies who are equally opposed to existing global order. But what exactly are the opposed to - and what do proponents of the LIO want to defend? It is not clear if either the critics or the supporters agree about what the most essential components of the order are. Is it about the West? It it about free trade and neoliberal economics? Is it about democracy and human rights? What makes the order "liberal" anyway? Do we need to scale back the LIO in order to save it? What would a world without it look like? In this episode, recorded live at the Young Professionals Summit at GMF's Brussels Forum, hosts Rachel Tausendfreund and Peter Sparding are joined by GMF transatlantic fellow Janka Oertel and Josh Rogin, Global Opinions Columnist with the Washington Post, to discuss these questions and work towards understanding what the Liberal International Order is anyways.
3/14/20181 hour, 5 minutes, 18 seconds
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“Military Might…? Hard Security’s Role in a Soft Power World”

So far, the Out-of-Order Podcast has focused on specific countries and the role they play in trying to stabilize, uphold, change, or transform the current international order. In the fifth episode, we take a different approach as we look at what role the military and hard power plays in shaping the international order. To discuss this and related issues, hosts Amy Studdart and Peter Sparding are joined by GMF Visiting Senior Fellow Shawn Turner and GMF Executive Vice President Derek Chollet. During the Cold War, the role of the military in underpinning the Western international order seemed clear. After the end of the Cold War, however, the mission of Western militaries seemed to change as NATO was looking for a new role and Western militaries primarily focused first on humanitarian interventions like in the Balkans and then, following the attacks on 9/11, on targeted military action fighting against terrorism and broad-scope wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Now, as the new U.S. National Defense Strategy (NDS) outlines, the focus of U.S. military policy seems to turn back to questions of strategic competition with other powers and the larger international order like we saw more so during the Cold War. Shawn and Derek lay out how the strategic environment has changed to necessitate these developments—changes that were well underway during the previous administration. In fact, they say that despite some of the changed rhetoric, there is a lot of continuity with regard to U.S. military posture under the Trump administration (which sounds like a bipartisan opinion given Jamie Fly’s take in our last episode). The question is raised as to how sustainable the current discrepancy between the policy priorities set in documents such as the NDS, which emphasizes the need to work with allies, and President Trump’s more brash approach to coalition building, including repeated clashes with allies. As Derek lays out the relative loss of superiority of the U.S. military vis-à-vis actors like China in areas such as AI, the discussion turns to the questions whether authoritarian powers such as China or Russia are helped in their ambition by their lack of adherence to certain liberal ideals which enable them push forward all-out-efforts in technology and certain policy areas. Naturally, the focus then shifts to Europe, as we analyze the important contribution of some European countries, while also pointing to the increasing divergence in capabilities between the transatlantic partners. Finally, we discuss whether too much is asked of the military as the it is increasingly put forward as a solution to more problems and the answer to ever more questions. Given the growing sentiment to focus on “nation building at home” on both sides of the Atlantic and the reluctance of Americans to engage in new large scale military interventions following the experiences in Afghanistan and Iraq, how sustainable is the current approach? Is there a risk of losing public support at home for international engagement? Think or Tank Amy – THINK- The Rise of the Anti-Liberalism Essay in The Atlantic by Shadi Hamid Derek – THINK - The Heroism of Incremental Care in The New Yorker Dr. Atul Gawande; TANK- Mattis Not speaking at Munich Security Conference. Shawn – TANK – On the gun control and school shooting debate going on in the U.S. currently, armed teachers become the first target in a planned attack Peter – THINK - Why Is It So Hard for Democracy to Deal With Inequality? In The New York Times by Thomas Edsall
2/28/201846 minutes, 14 seconds
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Unleashed or Unhinged? One Year of U.S. Global Leadership Under President Trump

In the fourth episode of Out of Order, having discussed the roles of Germany, China, and whether other international actors can fill the void left in the international system, this episode focuses on the country that supposedly is leaving this void: the United States. Hosts Rachel Tausendfreund and Peter Sparding talk with GMF Senior Fellow and Director of the Asia and Future of Geopolitics programs Jamie Fly, a long-time Republican foreign policy hand, about U.S. foreign policy in the unpredictable first year of the Trump presidency. Fly argues that Trump’s foreign policy has been relatively conventional, if not too conventional — when you set asides his tweets and some erratic statements. He goes on to contend that U.S. foreign policy thus far has actually continued the trend of the previous democratic administration by stepping even further back from a position of leadership in the world order we’ve come to know. Yet, at the same time, recent domestic political developments and behaviors of the Trump administration are definitely worrying and could irreversibly hurt U.S. standing in the world going forward. The discussion also dives into the questions of whether it is possible to (and if we should) separate tweets and statements from policy, and whether the increasing discrepancy between rhetoric and actions will be impossible to keep up? What are the long-term consequences of this for U.S. alliances and the international order? Is the U.S. public turning away from international engagement due to the failure of previous U.S. foreign policy or due to other factors like rising nationalist sentiment and a feeling of displacement in a fast-changing world? Things to make you THINK: Rachel recommends Masha Gessen’s essay in The New York Review of Books, “To Be or Not to Be,” that explores all different sides of ones identity as an international immigrant. It begins, “Thirty-nine years ago my parents took a package of documents to an office in Moscow. This was our application for an exit visa to leave the Soviet Union. More than two years would pass before the visa was granted, but from that day on I have felt a sense of precariousness wherever I have been, along with a sense of opportunity. They are a pair.” Link: Given the focus of this episode is on the future of U.S. global leadership, Peter suggests also digging into the similar debate happening on the other side of the pond around the future of EU global leadership and more specifically Germany’s role in it. He recommends starting with a recent policy essay by Hans Kundnani and Jana Puglierin entitled, “Atlanticist and ‘Post-Atlanticist’ Wishful Thinking,” which argues that those in favor of maintaining the status-quo in the transatlantic relationship are underestimating the current crises and “although it is true that Trump is not America, neither is the foreign policy establishment, as the Atlanticists seem to suggest.” Link: And Jamie, as a former Capitol Hill staffer and lifelong Republican, points to President Trump’s first State of the Union address as a window into the “powerhouse presidency that might have been.” Link: Go In-depth… If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more, we would recommend these pieces to start you off: One Year of President Trump: Views from Around the World: The Contested Global Landscape in Trump’s New Security Strategy: The U.S.–France Special Relationship after a Year of Trump:
2/12/201844 minutes, 6 seconds
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Disinformation and Division, From Russia with Love

Misinformed, disinformed, and divided —  that’s Russia’s goal. In the third episode of GMF’s Out of Order podcast, we look at Russia’s hybrid toolbox of trouble, and what it means for the future of the liberal international order as we know it. What is the Kremlin doing to undermine Western democracies and why? Hosts Rachel Tausendfreund and Peter Sparding talk with David Salvo and Bret Schafer from GMF’s Alliance for Securing Democracy, a bi-partisan project that tracks ongoing efforts to subvert democracy in the United States and Europe. We talk twitter, the Hamilton 68 disinformation dashboard, money trails, and covert invasions. How much success is it having, and how much should the public care?
2/1/201838 minutes, 46 seconds
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All Things China

In the second episode of Out of Order, GMF Fellows Amy Studdart, Andrew Small, and Peter Sparding take a look at China and its approach to the liberal international order. First, they discuss the so called “China shock" ˗ the analysis that China, as a massive rising economic power, has been one of the causal factors for the crisis in Western democracies, in particular by taking manufacturing jobs in some regions. They then analyze responses from the United States and Europe and wonder if, in some cases, the cures that are now being contemplated may be worse than the disease. Then the podcast looks at the question of interference in Western democracies and whether China is acting similar in this regard to other powers, such as Russia, and what the differences are. Finally, Amy, Andrew, and Peter contemplate the "contest for the future" and what it means if an illiberal power like China takes the lead in various technological areas, such as AI, space, genomics, and nano-tech.
1/11/20181 hour, 21 seconds
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What's German for Blob?

In the pilot episode of Out of Order, GMF Fellows Rachel Tausendfreund, Amy Studdart, Hans Kundani, and Peter Sparding take a look at the political situation in Germany. Following the Brexit referendum in the United Kingdom and the U.S. presidential elections in 2016, many observers saw Germany as the last man/woman standing. Some even went as far as to anoint German chancellor Angela Merkel to be the new defender of the liberal international order. Yet, a year later and following the German federal elections in fall of 2017, the country is struggling to form a new government, right wing populists have entered the Bundestag, and a debate has ensued about the future of Germany’s relationship with the United States. Rachel, Amy, Hans, and Peter discuss recent developments in Germany, explain why Germany may be caught between a rock and a hard place in its relationship to the U.S., and look at the implications for Europe and Germany’s role in the world. In the “Think or Tank” segment, all discussants are asked to talk about something - an article, a book, a speech – that either made them think or that completely tanked.
12/18/201742 minutes, 9 seconds