Hi everyone! We're right in the middle of ADHD Awareness Month, and to celebrate, we're bringing back one of our all-time favorite episodes with a twist. Today, we look at what makes ADHD brains tick, explore both medication and non-medication strategies, and talk about how pairing these with executive function tools can build confidence in people with ADHD. We also give tips for those of you who are exploring a potential ADHD diagnosis for yourself or your child. This episode also includes voices from a number of people with ADHD who graciously recorded their thoughts to share with us. Trust me, you’ll want to stick around until the end, because we have the most adorable voice you’ve ever heard, sharing their experience with ADHD—I can’t wait for you to hear it! Show notes: Episode 51 - Re-release of ADHD episodeADHD FundamentalsADHD Success Kit by Beyond BookSmarthttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/adhd-success-kit-2022Fact Sheet: Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) Topicshttp://www.russellbarkley.org/factsheets/adhd-facts.pdfBeyond BookSmart’s ADHD Webinarhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/on-demand-webinar-registration-adhd-fundamentalsADHD BrainsHow Does ADHD Affect The Brain?https://www.healthline.com/health/adhd/the-brains-structure-and-functionADHD & the Brainhttps://www.aacap.org/AACAP/Families_and_Youth/Facts_for_Families/FFF-Guide/ADHD_and_the_Brain-121.aspx2-Minute Neuroscience: ADHDhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8JnDhp83gAThe Default Mode Network, Motivation, and Attentionhttps://www.labschool.org/news/stories/default-mode-network-motivation-and-attentionADHD Neuroscience 101https://www.additudemag.com/adhd-neuroscience-101ADHD and GenderADHD in girls and boys – gender differences in co-existing symptoms and executive function measureshttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3827008/The Intersection of ADHD and Gender Diversity - Mental Health Therapy, Psychotherapy, Counseling, Coaching, Psychiatry Blog Post By Holly Mileshttps://www.inclusivetherapists.com/blog/the-intersection-of-adhd-and-gender-diversityA Review of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder in Women and Girls: Uncovering This Hidden Diagnosis - PMChttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4195638/ADHD and Gender Identity: How They're Linked and Tips for Parentshttps://psychcentral.com/adhd/people-with-adhd-more-likely-to-question-gender-identityADHD Diagnosis SupportHow to Get an ADHD Diagnosis - Child Mind Institutehttps://childmind.org/article/how-to-get-an-adhd-diagnosis/Diagnosis of ADHD | CDChttps://www.cdc.gov/adhd/diagnosis/ADHD Symptom ManagementThe Exercise Prescription for ADHD https://chadd.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/ATTN_06_12_Exercise.pdfWhat Should You Treat First: ADHD or Mental Health Challenges?https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/what-should-you-treat-first-adhd-or-mental-health-challengesCognitive-Behavioral Therapy - CHADDhttps://chadd.org/for-adults/cognitive-behavioral-therapy/Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for ADHD: Techniques and Optionshttps://psychcentral.com/adhd/cognitive-behavioral-therapy-for-adhdNon-drug treatments for adult ADHD - Harvard Healthhttps://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/non-drug-treatments-for-adult-adhd

Long time no see! Welcome back to season 4 of Focus Forward AND our 50th episode of the podcast. We’re so happy you’re here with us as we begin the best season yet. Today’s episode topic was chosen based on research we’ve gathered about people interested in coaching. According to our questionnaire, planning & prioritizing is the #1 Executive Function skill that students and adults alike are currently struggling with. In this episode, I’ll be sharing some of our favorite tools and strategies to help you or someone you love buiild this critical skill. Show notes: Executive Functioning and Positive Outcomes for ChildrenExecutive Function & Self-Regulationhttps://developingchild.harvard.edu/science/key-concepts/executive-function/Executive Function Skills Predict Children's Success in Life and in Schoolhttps://www.mindinthemaking.org/stories/executive-function-skills-predict-childrens-success-in-life-and-in-schoolEllen Galinsky’s books on EF and children and adolescentsThe Breakthrough Yearshttps://ellengalinsky.com/the-breakthrough-years/Mind in the Makinghttps://www.mindinthemaking.org/Focus Forward Episodes MentionedEp. 40: The Breakthrough Years: Raising Thriving Teens Through Executive Function (ft. Ellen Galinsky)https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=fhebx5zqflEp. 14: 4 Steps to Build Time Management Strategies You'll Use for Lifehttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=2hd9mmw2wiEp. 25: Laziness vs. Executive Dysfunction: Expert Tips to Help Motivate Your Kidshttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=e5k6nv0wteExecutive Function for Teachers and Classroomswww.braintracks.com7 Classroom Management Strategies That Teach Students Executive Function Skillshttps://www.braintracks.com/blog-posts/7-classroom-management-strategies-that-teach-students-executive-function-skills

Today’s episode is just for us parents during this back to school time. As you already know, supporting the people we love comes more easily when we feel good about ourselves. However, when things get busy and our energy drains, it’s easy to forget about taking care of ourselves. With the return to school providing plenty of chaos for us parents, now is the perfect time to prepare and make sure you’re ready to not only support your kids, but also yourself. So today, we’re exploring five key Executive Function areas that will really support you during this time and give you some tips and strategies in each area. Even if you can’t realistically do all of the things I cover, pick one - just one - that you’re going to commit to doing. Make observations over the next few weeks - what was hard? What was easy? Did it make a difference? Is there something else you can add? (This reflection is an Executive Function exercise in and of itself!) Show Notes:Register for our Back-to-School Webinar on August 14https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/back-to-school-relief-2024Watch Our Past Webinarshttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/workshops-and-eventsFocus Forward Episodes MentionedEp 44: Ask the Coaches: Answering Your Top Questions about Summer, Motivation, Transitions, and more!https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=z1tfw9hl2aEp 11: Procrastination: Why We Wait & What to Do About Ithttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=n2bmc91r6dEp 42: Insomnia, ADHD, and Sleep Hygiene: How to Transform Your Life Through Better Sleep (ft. Marlee Boyle)https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=rpuckdh0f5Other ResourcesCovey Quadrants/Eisenhower Matrix (Hannah’s version)https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Bzg9nObT0HbK5EjK2s7bBW3deSRzstAVA_v_VEX71zY/edit?usp=sharingClutterBugwww.clutterbug.me

Today’s episode is a conversation I had with Dr. Deborah Korn, a licensed clinical psychologist with over 30 years of experience treating trauma with EMDR therapy. If you haven’t heard of EMDR before, you’re in for a treat because this therapy technique is pretty mind-blowing. From our conversation, you’ll learn what EMDR therapy is, how it works, and who might be a good candidate for this innovative intervention for coping with trauma (spoiler alert: you don’t need to have had a big traumatic experience to benefit from EMDR!) Best of all, Dr. Korn shared some inspiring and heartwarming stories about people whose lives have been changed for the better (or maybe even saved) by EMDR therapy. I hope you enjoy the episode!Show notesLearn more about Dr. Kornhttps://www.everymemorydeservesrespect.com/about-deborah-korn-psydEvery Memory Deserves Respect Bookhttps://www.everymemorydeservesrespect.com/bookLearn More About EMDREMDR International Associationhttps://www.emdria.org/about-emdr-therapy/EMDR Institutehttps://www.emdr.com/what-is-emdr/

Today’s episode is all about obsessive-compulsive disorder or OCD. I met up with Dr. Anthony Bram, a clinical psychologist in Lexington, Massachusetts to learn more about this fascinating brain-based condition. Dr. Bram works with adults and kids, providing support for a wide range of mental health challenges, including OCD, anxiety, depression, and learning differences. He explained to me that he became interested in helping people with OCD during his predoctoral internship. He realized that the traditional kinds of psychotherapy that he had been learning were not so effective in alleviating the distressing symptoms of his patients with OCD. This led him to discover a specialized form of cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) called exposure with response prevention (ERP). Dr. Bram continued to learn more during his postdoctoral work at the Menninger Clinic, which was in Topeka, KS at the time. There, while primarily pursuing advanced training in traditional modalities of treatment and assessment, he also sought the supervision of a cognitive behavioral therapist who specialized in OCD so he could begin learning and applying ERP and other CBT techniques. This experience taught him the importance of being flexible and expanding his therapeutic skills to better meet the diverse needs of his clients. I’m so happy to bring Dr. Bram on so we can all learn about OCD, its connection to executive functioning, and how to support people in our lives who may be struggling with it and its related challenges. Enjoy! Show notes: Learn more about Dr. Bramhttp://www.dranthonybram.com/Learn more about OCDhttps://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/obsessive-compulsive-disorder-ocdhttps://iocdf.org/about-ocd/OCD activity in the prefrontal cortex (image)https://drive.google.com/file/d/1x6W41yZhcbsnf4ZJ9qCY1R8J4-_jv0sl/view?usp=sharingFind a Providerhttps://iocdf.org/find-help/?_provider_proximity=42.3600825%2C-71.0588801%2C50%2CBoston%252C%2520MA%252C%2520USA

Okay, so this week is a tasty episode! I invited Becca King, a registered dietitian and social media influencer with nearly 200k followers, to join me on Focus Forward to talk about food, ADHD, and Executive Function as the three are more interconnected than you might think. We talk about many aspects of food and cooking - how to lower or get rid of barriers that may prevent us from cooking or eating nourishing food, meal planning and how to make it work for you and how it may change as your life situation changes. We also talked about the importance of crunch (haha!), finding satisfaction in the food we eat, and how to remove the guilt or shame we might feel when we don’t cook or eat how we feel like we “should”. Becca follows an “all foods fit” approach to nutrition and really helps people get to a place where they can nourish themselves with nutrient-dense foods and eat the fun stuff, too. Thanks for listening and be sure to check out Becca’s instagram and resources in the show notes below!Show NotesLearn more about Becca KingInstagram: www.instagram.com/adhd.nutritionistBecca’s Tips for Remembering to Eat: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Os3jH51Y-7BwNQdn7zSntTzj1b2FBswP/view?usp=drive_linkBecca’s Sensory Descriptors to help understand your sensory preferences with food: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gjbDnVhwDIvYbodCGtu7tGB0vbWS60aU/view?usp=drive_linkADHD and FoodExecutive Dysfunction 101: How to Treat ADHD's Most Difficult Symptom: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/executive-dysfunction-101-how-to-treat-adhds-most-difficult-symptom#howtotreatEDADHD Diet For Adults: Foods To Eat And Avoid:https://add.org/adhd-diet/Nutrition in the Management of ADHD: A Review of Recent Research:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10444659/Nutrition and ADHD: https://chadd.org/about-adhd/nutrition-and-adhd/

As Executive Function coaches, we often talk about how working on Executive Function skills is really an act of building self-confidence. Learning to be confident in yourself and believing you can get through the hard stuff is the key to trying new things, reaching your goals, and truly making a lasting difference in all areas of life. We work hard to build this confidence in our clients, just as my guest today does with his college students. James Sanders the third is a professor of public speaking and interpersonal communication at Fayetteville Technical Community College in North Carolina. He joined me to share how teaching public speaking has shown him how students can truly blossom when they step outside of their comfort zone. I’ll let him tell you more about the work he does, but this man is making positive change happen wherever he goes. We talked about the importance of community, of trusting yourself, and saying yes to the scary things that are a stepping stone towards reaching your goals. In addition to being interesting to talk to and an inspiring ray of sunshine,

Hi everyone! Today we’re having another Q&A with some of our amazing Executive Function coaches. Together, we answer your top questions pertaining to summer support, motivation, transitions, and so much more! Our last coach Q&A episode was in December and became our second most listened to episode of all time - so we figured why not do it again? The three Beyond BookSmart coaches I met with this time are Vin Kachurik, Cass Estey, and Maria Ares. If you’ve attended any of our free webinars, you may recognize a few of their voices. Although many of the questions we answered were about high school and college life, the tools and strategies we discuss can be used by anyone at any age. So tune in and get some support for the inevitable transitions and challenges that we all face at this time of year! And when you’re done listening, be sure to check out the show notes for some links to more resources and deeper dives into some of the tools we talked about today.Webinar: Finishing Strong: Executive Function Solutions for End-of-Year Successhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/finishing-strong-executive-function-solutions-for-end-of-school-year-successJames Clear (Atomic Habits) Resourceshttps://jamesclear.com/eisenhower-boxhttps://jamesclear.com/atomic-habitsCovey Quadrants Explainedhttps://www.indeed.com/career-advice/career-development/covey-time-management-matrixHow to Increase Motivation With ADHD: 10 Tips From Treatment Expertshttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/how-to-increase-motivation-with-adhd-10-tips-from-expertsSpoon Theory Explainedhttps://butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory/80/20 College Splithttps://drive.google.com/file/d/198Yao_AjXR8KwBxUoRu8IGGIQIgg0wAa/view?usp=drive_linkCollege Readiness Skills Listhttps://drive.google.com/file/d/125bkdoLNuBA-3qagORblx7ICSBBVGm74/view?usp=sharingA Day in the Life of a Sumo Wrestlerhttps://web-japan.org/kidsweb/virtual/sumo/sumo04.html

Today we’re talking all about creativity. You may have already known that Executive Function skills benefit our creativity, but what you might know is that creative hobbies can actually have huge benefits for the development of our Executive Functioning. In this episode, we explore this symbiotic relationship so you can learn how to enjoy the brain benefits of both creativity and Executive Function. The full episode is now available to stream on all your favorite podcast platforms (linked above!)As always, thank you for being part of the Focus Forward community! If you enjoy this episode, be sure to leave us a 5-star rating on the platform you're listening on ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Here are the show notes from today’s episode: Benefits of Creative HobbiesAssociation of Enjoyable Leisure Activities With Psychological and Physical Well-Being: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2863117/Crafts as serious hobbies: Impact and benefits in later life: https://intellectdiscover.com/content/journals/10.1386/crre.9.1.93_1Window of ToleranceWhat Is the Window of Tolerance, and Why Is It So Important: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/making-the-whole-beautiful/202205/what-is-the-window-tolerance-and-why-is-it-so-importantHow to Help Your Clients Understand Their Window of Tolerance: https://www.nicabm.com/trauma-how-to-help-your-clients-understand-their-window-of-tolerance/Managing PerfectionismConquering Failure: Expert Tips for Building a More Resilient Life: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/overcoming-procrastination-webinar-on-demand-registration-0Focus Forward Ep 11: Procrastination: Why We Wait & What to Do About It: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=n2bmc91r6dThe Perils of Handmade Perfectionism: https://luvliness.net/2024/02/the-perils-of-handmade-perfectionism/5 Teachings From The Japanese Wabi Sabi Philosophy That Can Drastically Improve Your Life: https://www.omaritani.com/blog/wabi-sabi-philosophy-teachingsCreative Hobbies and Executive FunctionDirections Practice: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zIOa53QyoJkx98mhLCluX2NGNgZ4iXN-ag2hW-gHUL0/editSewing with Threads Podcast - Sewing and Neurodiversity: https://www.threadsmagazine.com/2024/04/03/sewing-and-neurodiversity-with-hannah-choi-episode-76Learn more about Hannah and Bonnie (Bonnah Co Fiber Arts): https://www.bonnahco.com and https://www.instagram.com/bonnahcofiberarts

Hi everyone! Today we’re talking about sleep. I met with Marlee Boyle, a respiratory therapist and sleep specialist in Nova Scotia, Canada. Marlee co-owns a sleep clinic and specializes in helping people with ADHD improve their sleep. This episode is one that you’ll want to listen to because we all should, as Marlee says, “start with sleep”. You’ll also learn about sleep apnea and how important it is to address this, differences in circadian rhythms and what to do about them, how cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-I) can help, and how to support kids who have difficulty sleeping. As always, thank you for listening! Here are the show notes from today’s episode: Learn More about Marlee Boylehttps://www.sleep-works.com/Sleep Works’ Favorite Sleep Toolshttps://www.sleep-works.com/amazon-storeMarlee’s Venn diagram of Sleep and ADHD symptomshttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1P9Q9KHzCNe7_ej0J9EwbwWPYa9SWykTb/view?usp=sharingSleep ResourcesCDC Sleep Resourceshttps://www.cdc.gov/sleep/resources.htmlSleep Resources from MIThttps://health.mit.edu/community/sleepADHD and Sleephttps://www.sleepfoundation.org/mental-health/adhd-and-sleepEp. 41 of Focus Forward - Dr. Olivardia shares some information about sleep apnea and his own experience with ADHD and sleephttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=mfbk3q8d60ADHD and Sleep Problems: This is Why You’re Always Tiredhttps://www.additudemag.com/adhd-sleep-disturbances-symptoms/

Today’s conversation explores a really important topic - the occurrence of ADHD with other diagnoses, also known as comorbidities. If you aren’t sure if this topic applies to you, I encourage you to listen anyway because you might end up learning something that could truly, truly help yourself or someone you love in ways you never expected. I learned so much from my guest, Dr. Roberto Olivardia, who is a clinical psychologist and lecturer at Harvard Medical School. I met Roberto at the ADHD conference in Baltimore last year and was excited to get him on Focus Forward. He’s just a wealth of knowledge and super interesting to talk to. Roberto and I started out exploring the comorbidities that can occur with ADHD, such as OCD, anxiety, depression, and bipolar disorder. Our conversation led us to sleep and sleep apnea and eating disorders in boys and men and the connection to ADHD here, too. This important connection is not talked about or studied as much as it needs to be. Thank you for listening and I hope our conversation resonates with you or someone you love.Show NotesLearn More About Dr. Roberto OlivardiaRoberto Olivardia’s profile: https://www.mcleanhospital.org/profile/roberto-olivardiaMcLean Hospital’s Free Mental Health Webinars: https://www.mcleanhospital.org/video-series/mental-health-webinarsFacing Insecurities With Body Dysmorphic Disorder - webinar hosted by Roberto: https://www.mcleanhospital.org/video/facing-insecurities-body-dysmorphic-disorderThe Adonis Complex: How to Identify, Treat and Prevent Body Obsession in Men and Boys: https://www.amazon.com/Adonis-Complex-Identify-Prevent-Obsession/dp/068486911X/Roberto Olivardia on YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=roberto+olivardiaLearn More about the Connection between ADHD and Other DiagnosesWhat Is Complex ADHD? Symptoms, Diagnosis & Treatment by Theresa Cerulli, MD:https://www.additudemag.com/complex-adhd-symptoms-diagnosis-treatment/Not Just ADHD? Helping Children with Multiple Concerns: https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/features/not-just-adhd.htmlAre Eating Disorders Related to Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4777329/Is obstructive sleep apnea associated with ADHD? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21808754/

Hi everyone! It’s a special day for us here at Focus Forward. Today marks our 40th episode, just days ahead of our two-year podcast anniversary. I want to thank our amazing team at Beyond BookSmart and of course, you, our listeners. It means so much to us to know that so many are finding the work that we are doing here at Focus Forward helpful.Today’s episode is also really special because I had the ultimate privilege and joy of getting to sit down with Ellen Galinsky. Ellen is the OG of researching and writing about Executive Function skills, parenthood, and child development. In addition to being the author of many books, she also founded the Families and Work Institute along with many other life accomplishments you can read about in her bio. You may have heard of or read her book “Mind in the Making” which explores seven life skills young kids need to thrive - and these life skills are Executive Function skills! In her books, she takes the brilliant work done by researchers all over the world and writes about it in a way that we non-researchers can understand and use in our lives. She’s done the same in her new book, The Breakthrough Years, which comes out in a couple of weeks on March 26. The Breakthrough Years teaches us more than just how to help our teenagers thrive, it helps us understand them. As you’ll hear Ellen explain, she asked teenagers what they want people to know about them and the messages that teens want us adults to hear make up the five chapters of the book. So tune in and learn how to help raise thriving teens through a deep knowledge of what drives them and through the application of Executive Function strategies. Learn More About Ellen GalinskyEllen Galinsky’s Websitehttps://www.ellengalinsky.comThe Breakthrough Yearshttps://ellengalinsky.com/the-breakthrough-years/Mind in the Makinghttps://www.mindinthemaking.org/Families and Work Institutehttps://www.familiesandwork.org/Other Parenting Resources I’ve Been Loving LatelyLisa Damour’s books and "Ask Lisa" podcastAliza Pressman’s book and "Raising Good Humans" podcastNever Enough by Jennifer Breheny WallaceAdam Grant’s books and “Rethinking” podcast (not parenting-focused, but still very much applicable!)Kenneth Ginsburg’s book, Congrats - You’re Having a Teen! Contact Us!Reach out to us at [email protected]/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Today’s episode covers a topic that’s close to my heart - both as a parent and an Executive Function coach. We’ll be talking about self-advocacy for kids and adolescents with Dr. Nerissa Bauer, a behavioral pediatrician from Indiana whom I met through my colleague Wendy Craven. Nerissa and I got to meet in person at the ADHD conference in 2023, which was just so much fun that I had to bring her onto Focus Forward! Together, we explored the importance of emotional literacy, which empowers kids to recognize and express their feelings effectively. We also discussed how kids, especially those facing learning challenges or other diagnoses, can learn to advocate for themselves. You’ll hear Dr. Bauer share invaluable insights and actionable tips for parents and caregivers of all ages, from toddlers to high school seniors. I hope you enjoy listening to our conversation as much as I enjoyed being a part of it! Here are the show notes from today's episode: Learn More About Dr. Nerissa BauerYouTube Channelhttps://www.youtube.com/@NerissaBauerMDLinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/nerissa-bauer-md-mph-faap-4b692967/Let’s Talk Kids’ Healthhttps://www.letstalkkidshealth.org/Teach Me ADHD Virtual Course for Parents and Kidshttps://www.letstalkkidshealth.org/teach-me-adhd-sales-page-general-registrationSelf-Advocacy Resources6 tips for helping your grade-schooler learn to self-advocatehttps://www.understood.org/en/articles/6-tips-for-helping-your-grade-schooler-learn-to-self-advocateThe Importance of Self-Advocacyhttps://www.understood.org/en/articles/the-importance-of-self-advocacyGetting Students on the Road to Self-Advocacyhttps://www.edutopia.org/article/getting-students-road-self-advocacy/Self-Advocacy for College Studentshttps://www.ldonline.org/ld-topics/self-esteem-stress-management/self-advocacy-college-studentsEmotional LiteracyMarc Brackett, PhD talks emotional literacy with Brene Brownhttps://brenebrown.com/podcast/dr-marc-brackett-and-brene-on-permission-to-feel/Emotional Knowing and Emotional Literacyhttps://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/envy/202209/emotional-knowing-and-emotional-literacyDeveloping Emotional Literacy Across the Grade Levelshttps://www.edutopia.org/article/developing-emotional-literacy-across-grade-levels/

Hi everyone! In today’s episode, I sat down with Dr. Bianca Busch to talk about college students, their experiences adjusting to college, and how they can take care of their mental health. Dr. Busch is a psychiatrist in the Dallas, TX area and also the founder and CEO of The College Psychiatrists, an organization dedicated to supporting the mental health needs of college students.We explored topics such as the importance of emotion regulation - always a fave of mine, learning to recognize and manage feelings of overwhelm, and the role of friends and other support networks in promoting mental well-being in college students. As we know, the college experience is not just about academics as students must learn how to balance classroom demands with healthy social relationships. With a compassionate approach, which really resonated with me, Dr. Bush offered guidance on fostering resilience and building a foundation for success both in college and after graduation. Listen to learn from her knowledge and experience as she shares her insights into the unique challenges that college students face today.Here are some relevant resources from today's episode: Learn More About Dr. Bianca Buschhttps://www.drbiancabusch.com/https://www.collegepsychiatrist.com/https://www.instagram.com/collegepsychiatrist/Overwhelmed by College? Here's How to Regain Controlhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/overwhelmed-by-college-heres-how-to-regain-controlFreshman Social Jitters? 5 Tips to Making Friends in Collegehttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/freshman-social-jitters-5-tips-to-making-friends-in-collegeWhat College Students Struggle with Most (and what you can do to help)https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/what-college-students-struggle-with-most-and-what-you-can-do-to-helpBefore Heading to College, Make a Mental Health Checklisthttps://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/08/well/mind/mental-health-college-students.htmlTwo Keys to Helping College Students Feel Like They Belonghttps://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/two_keys_to_helping_college_students_feel_like_they_belon

This week’s episode is focused on something that is both widespread and completely misunderstood - imposter syndrome. After all, there’s nothing inherently wrong with people who feel like imposters. It’s not a syndrome - especially to the degree to which the term “syndrome” is appropriate. In reality, the more accurate name is something more like “imposter phenomenon, which is actually a term coined by the original researchers on this subject, Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes, in their initial papers. Regardless of what you want to call it, feeling like an imposter who doesn’t deserve the success they’ve experienced or the position they’re in is all too common in today’s world. Left unchecked, feeling like an imposter can grow beyond self-doubt and prevent us from feeling fulfilled or confident in all areas of our lives. Luckily, my guest today is Dr. Nicole Pulliam - aka the perfect person to help you overcome your self-doubt! I was connected with Nicole through a colleague of mine, Allison Larthey, who saw her speak at the Women’s Leadership Summit in NJ in the fall of 2023. After having the pleasure of speaking with her for this episode, I now know why she was so impressed by Nicole’s presentation. Tune in to hear our conversation about how to manage feeling like an imposter, the impact of it on our lives, and what you can do to better support yourself and those around you. Here are the show notes for today's episode: Learn More About Dr. Nicole Pulliamhttps://www.realandworthyllc.com/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbSFe0FumnkLearn more about Imposter (or Impostor, both are right) PhenomenonThe Imposter Phenomenon in High Achieving Women: Dynamics and Therapeutic Intervention - Clance and Imeshttps://www.womeninanesthesiology.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/ip_high_achieving_women.pdfImposterism, Perfectionism, and Burnout – A Toxic Triad - Dr. Tracey Markshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BMSsKWJ8gsStop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndromehttps://hbr.org/2021/02/stop-telling-women-they-have-imposter-syndromeFeeling Like an Impostor Is Not a Syndromehttps://slate.com/business/2016/04/is-impostor-syndrome-real-and-does-it-affect-women-more-than-men.htmlIt's Not 'Impostor Syndrome' When You're Black and Womanhttps://watercoolerconvos.com/2016/04/20/its-not-impostor-syndrome-when-youre-black-and-woman/Dealing with Imposter Syndrome (ADHD Storytime from How to ADHD)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6wbCf0gNSwThe Connection Between ADHD and Imposter Syndrome | Psychology Todayhttps://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/on-your-way-with-adhd/202302/the-connection-between-adhd-and-imposter-syndrome

Could we really have a podcast called “Focus Forward” without eventually covering the topic of attention and focus? Of course not! Rest assured, today’s the day, and as a person with ADHD, difficulty paying attention is one of the most frustrating aspects of my brain. Most annoyingly, I seem to notice just about everything that’s happening around me but still end up missing so much of what’s actually important for me to remember. Luckily, I now know that this is simply a feature of my ADHD, but for most of my life, I thought it was some inherent character flaw. Can you relate to that struggle, too? Well, then this episode is for you. Today, we explore the critical Executive Function skill of attention and examine some of the most effective strategies for supporting focus in people of all learning profiles. I hope you enjoy and gain some valuable ideas to try out in your own life! If you do, be sure to leave us a review (and let me know at [email protected]!)In the meantime, here are our show notes for today’s episode: Impact of Meditation on the BrainMindfulness Meditation Is Related to Long-Lasting Changes in Hippocampal Functional Topology during Resting State: A Magnetoencephalography Studyhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6312586/When science meets mindfulnesshttps://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/04/harvard-researchers-study-how-mindfulness-may-change-the-brain-in-depressed-patients/7 Ways Meditation Can Actually Change The Brainhttps://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2015/02/09/7-ways-meditation-can-actually-change-the-brain/Myth of MultitaskingDan Crenshaw’s YouTube Video - Try the Myth of Multitasking Exercise!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eQyfirx2HAPsychology and Neuroscience Blow Up the Myth of Effective Multitaskinghttps://www.inc.com/scott-mautz/psychology-and-neuroscience-blow-up-the-myth-of-effective-multitasking.htmlStop Multitasking. No, Really — Just Stop It.https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/29/opinion/do-one-thing-at-a-time-management.html?unlocked_article_code=1.NE0.5X_B.EppCuwbpn7YE&smid=url-share

Well, we are almost to the end of the year. Happy New Year! Oh, you guys Thank you all so much for listening along in 2023. I was feeling a little emotional writing this intro. I’m so excited that we made it through another year. These podcast episodes are a lot of work and following through on stuff takes a lot of effort for me so I’m just really proud of myself for keeping up with it! And I have to say that what makes it easier for me is how much logistical, technical, and creative support my teammates Sean and Justice provide me and the continuous emotional support I get from them and other colleagues of mine at Beyond BookSmart - continually putting yourself out there as a podcast host is challenging so the emotional safety net they provide is well, I couldn’t do it without it. We are looking forward to next year and are excited about our upcoming episodes. If you have any topics you’d like me to explore, let me know! You can email me at [email protected]. And if you’ve got some free time, could you quickly rate our podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify? Hopefully 5 stars and if not, please let me know what we can improve! Today’s episode is a conversation I had with Dr. Marissa Edwards, Ariela Paulsen, and Karl Apelgren. These fantastic humans are all executive function coaches for Beyond BookSmart and If you’ve attended any of our free community education webinars, you may recognize their voices. I was so thrilled they agreed to join me for a Coach Q & A episode where we answer questions that were asked by people who registered for our webinars. Today we tackle managing negative thoughts, the impact of complex medical conditions on our executive functioning, the power of connection and having a strong support network, test anxiety, finding motivation when you’re not interested in something, especially classes, and how to succeed even if you have a teacher who is not supportive of your needs. I enjoyed talking with them so much that I really want to do this again. If you like this format, please let me know! As always, here are the shownotes from today's episode:Top 10 Ways for Overcoming Test Anxietyhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/top-10-ways-for-overcoming-test-anxietyHow to Help Students with Anxiety: Top 8 Tips for Parents and Teachershttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/treating-student-anxiety-7-expert-tips-for-parentsWhen Students with Health Conditions Transition to Collegehttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/when-students-with-health-conditions-transition-to-collegeComplex Child - A Resource for Parents of Children Who Are Medically Complex or Have Disabilitieshttps://complexchild.org/Organization tips for caregivers of a child with complex medical needshttps://www.aboutkidshealth.ca/article?contentid=1148&language=englishExecutive Functions, Self-Regulation, and Chronic Pain: A Reviewhttps://academic.oup.com/abm/article/37/2/173/4565851How to Practice Self-Compassion: 8 Techniques and Tipshttps://positivepsychology.com/how-to-practice-self-compassion/Text a Friend… Right Now! - Happiness Lab Podcasthttps://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/text-a-friend-right-now

A few months ago, I was in Ithaca for a family event and met Doug Kim, who shared that he works for Microsoft as a principal design manager in their inclusive design team. Once he told me that his team develops technology in a way that supports neurodiversity and mental health, I knew I had to get Doug on Focus Forward. For anyone who doesn’t know about inclusive design, let me give you a little primer. Microsoft is a leader in the field and much of what I am sharing I learned from their Inclusive Design Toolkit, (which you’ll hear more about later!) Inclusive design is a methodology that enables and draws on the full range of human diversity. Most importantly, this means including and learning from people with a range of perspectives. This explanation, which I just said, is the current, widely accepted definition, which was written by the inclusive design team at Microsoft. The concept of inclusive design was originally used for developing digital products but can, and should be used when designing anything that many people will use. It’s more than just making a product accessible, it’s about discovering and learning the variety of ways people might use a product from the people who will use it. Another thing I learned from the toolkit that helped me understand inclusive design more deeply is that “An important distinction between accessibility and inclusive design is that accessibility is an attribute, while inclusive design is a method. While practicing inclusive design should make a product more accessible, it’s not a process for meeting all accessibility standards. Ideally, accessibility and inclusive design work together to make experiences that are not only compliant with standards but truly usable and open to all.” Something else you’ll hear my guests talk about is the collaborative and iterative nature of inclusive design. It involves continuous learning and adaptation based on user feedback. It’s a dynamic process aimed at creating products that truly meet the diverse needs of users. This aspect of inclusive design really resonated with me as an Executive Function coach and I hope it resonates with you, too! Microsoft's ResourcesMicrosoft Inclusive DesignOriginal ToolkitToolkit for CognitionInclusive AIFurther Reading:Mismatch: How Inclusion Shapes Design by Kat HolmesInclusive Design Toolkit and resources from University of Cambridge, UKInclusively - Support for employers and employeesHistory of Inclusive Design - Institute for Human Centered DesignInclusive Design LinkedIn Learning Course with Christina MallonContact Us!Reach out to us at [email protected]/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Oh my goodness, it has been a month since we last dropped an episode. With Thanksgiving and the ADHD conference and all the other stuff that just goes on at work. We decided to skip one this past month. And before I get to this episode's topic, I wanted to share a little mini report on our experience attending the ADHD conference, which was held in Baltimore from November 29 to December 2, and I'm recording this a few days after returning home and I am still filled with excitement. It was so great. Sean Potts and Justice Abbott from our marketing team and Wendy Craven, who is one of our outreach specialists joined me at the conference. And it was truly an incredible experience for us all. We met some brilliant and interesting people who stopped by our booth in the exhibit hall and shared their stories with us. And we worked really hard to make our booth a fun place to stop by people lined up to spin our colorful prize wheel and learn about ADHD symptoms and some tools that you can use to manage the challenges that come along with those symptoms. And our ADHD Beyond BookSmart squishy brains in our teal blue company color were a major hit. And our you're not lazy bracelets and stickers resonated with many people. We also had a secret notes project where people could anonymously share their thoughts about their ADHD, and a community art wall that everyone could contribute to. We are all so grateful we were able to attend. And next year's conference is in Anaheim in southern Southern Cal in sunny Southern California. And it is absolutely an event worth attending. So start saving those pennies. Okay, so let's get into today's episode. Back in June, I was in Ithaca for a family event. And I met Doug Kim, who is a friend of my husband's cousin, Doug shared that he works for Microsoft as a principal design manager. And part of his job includes collaborating with the inclusive design team at Microsoft, and working on developing a guide for Inclusive Design for neurodiversity. And as soon as I heard those words come out of his mouth, I knew I had to get Doug on Focus Forward. And of course, because he's wonderful, he wholeheartedly said yes, and then came through with an even better offer, and brought two of his colleagues who are the leaders of inclusive design at Microsoft, Christina Mallon and Margaret Price. And for anyone who doesn't know about inclusive design, let me give you a little primer. Microsoft is a leader in the field and much of what I'm sharing I learned from their inclusive design Toolkit, which you're going to hear more about later. And inclusive design is a methodology that enables and draws on the full range of human diversity. Most importantly, this means including and learning from people with a range of perspectives. This explanation that I just said is the current widely accepted definition. And it was written by the inclusive design team at Microsoft. The concept of inclusive design was originally used for developing digital products, but can and should be used when designing anything that will be used by many people. It's more than just making a product accessible. It's about discovering and learning the variety of ways people might use a product from the people who will actually use it. An additional thing that I learned from the toolkit, and that helped me understand inclusive design more deeply is that an important distinction between accessibility and inclusive design is that accessibility is an attribute. Well, inclusive design is a method. While practicing inclusive designs should make a product more accessible. It's not a process for meeting all accessibility standards. Ideally, accessibility and inclusive design work together to make experiences that are not only compliant with standards, but truly usable, and open to all. And something else you'll hear my guests talk about is the collaborative and iterative nature of inclusive design. It involves continuous learning, and adaptation based on user feedback. It's a dynamic process, and it's aimed at creating products that truly meet the diverse needs of users. And this aspect of inclusive design really resonates with me as an executive function coach. As coaches we also collaborate with our clients to carefully and thoughtfully over time. Figure out the best way of using a tool to create a larger system that works to support the EF challenges the client experiences Okay, enough of me talking about this, let's get on to the show. Oh, and by the way, you get to hear Exhausted Hannah today, I tried to record Focus Forward episodes in the mornings when my attention and my brain are at their best. But due to some scheduling limitations, a couple of my guests are on the West Coast. I recorded this conversation after a long day of work. And apparently speaking coherently, in complete sentences was not my strong point at that time that day, so please have patience with me. As you wait for me to get my thoughts out of my head. Oh, boy. Okay,Christina Mallon 05:38here we go.Hannah Choi 05:41All right. Well, hello, Microsoft people. Thank you so much for joining me on Focus Forward. Would you go around the room and introduce yourselves? Doug, do you want to start since you're the one that kind of connected us all?Doug Kim 06:01Sure, yeah. Well, my name is Doug Kim, and I'm a design manager at Microsoft. Part of my charter is to help support inclusive design. And a strong collaborator with Margaret. And Christina, were also on the podcast today. And we've been talking and working quite a bit over the, over the past couple of years on developing our developing our inclusive design toolkit, and especially developing better practices for designing for neurodiversity.Hannah Choi 06:34And Christina,Christina Mallon 06:37so I am Christina Mallon, I lead inclusive design at Microsoft, I joined about two years ago. I have dual paralysis and ADHD. So really excited to bring my lived experience into the conversation today. Hannah Choi 06:53Yeah, thank you. And Margaret. And last but not least, Margaret Price 06:57Hi, my name is Margaret. I joined Microsoft in 2014, as one of the founders of the inclusive design practice. I'm a strategist, I have ADHD, and I'm on the spectrum. And so this is a topic that is near and dear to me.Hannah Choi 07:13So can you just tell me the story about how you, you know, got to where you are today, and, and you know, how this inclusive design became what it is, and just kind of how you got here.Margaret Price 07:28Back in 2014, the number of product groups at Microsoft were asking some pretty big, bold questions like, What is the future of interaction design? And what's missing from various design thinking methods today? And how can we think about embracing the full range of human diversity as we think about product making, from how we frame problems to how we solve them. And so a small team of people got together and created this practice called inclusive design at Microsoft, which is grounded in three principles of recognizing where there's exclusion today. Learning from diversity, and scaling, for figuring out how you can think about disability through the lens of permanent temporary and situational abilities. And recognizing that there's so much opportunity to learn from somebody who may be experiencing a permanent disability or anyone who's experienced a large range of exclusion. You might think about exclusion through the lens of disability, but also through the lens of socioeconomic status, gender identity and a number of other dimensions. And how do you bring people into the process who've been excluded. And what that means in product making is, of course, having diverse teams of people and championing that, but also thinking about how you recruit folks to come into the process as CO designers to actually bring equity into the process because, of course, what we make as a byproduct of how we make and so we started as a very small and scrappy team of people and ended up building education and capability for all of Microsoft and scaling that we wanted free, accessible resources for the world. So we actually ended up creating curricula that's now in over 60 universities around the world. And a number of companies have been inspired by the work that we've done to create their own inclusive design departments. And we've worked hard to, you know, create a number of experts there are incredible brilliant people all around Microsoft, who are experts in the space now who apply the inclusive design method into their own product groups. And so it's been, it's been a journey of trial and error and learning and testing from a number of diverse communities in Microsoft and outside of Microsoft. And it's certainly a subject that is near and dear to my heart and Doug's and Christina's.Hannah Choi 10:17That's great. Yeah, I love I love how that conversations are being had with people who, who truly know, the experience from because it's a lived experience, there's not, you know, there's not really sort of assumptions being made. Can you tell me a little bit about how you work with your co-creators and how you make that whole process? happen? And it sounds like it's pretty fantastic and successful.Christina Mallon 10:52Yeah, I mean, I'm happy to cover that. And Doug, let me know if you want to add on. So we believe and as Margaret just mentioned, it is integral that there is equity within product making. So our goal that Microsoft is to ensure that we are creating with people from marginalized communities, at the beginning of ideation, all the way to releasing for, you know, general release, and how we work with them is through either ERGs within our company, that has individuals from marginalized communities as a part of that erg and an erg as an employee resource group, or we work with teams or individuals with different lived experiences from being a part of a marginalized community outside and we pay them to ensure that they can provide feedback at multiple times within the product development process. And feel free to really join in as I know, we've been working hand in hand on this specifically in Azure.Doug Kim 12:04Yeah, you know, we're always looking for ways that we can collaborate with people who have experience and always always looking for ways to improve that and always ways to like, help, you know, the people on the inside, who are creating these products really, really, like, learn to empathize with what people are experiencing with their products, which is not easy. And it's, it's, it's not an easy process. And like, there were a lot of mistakes, I think, there were made, like, in the early days, people were just sort of building awareness about disability and accessibility, you know, people would try to just like, whatever, try to use a screen reader or something and say, oh, okay, I got it, right? Well, you know, you don't, right, because if you have the luxury of turning off the screen reader after 15 minutes, then you have no idea what it's like to not be able to do that. And so this is a lesson that we try to like, you know, drill into all the folks that we work with, in terms of like bringing them along on this process. You know, there's this, this is kind of like widely adopted phrase principle, you know, nothing for us without us. And so we really try to stick to that principle, like, involve people very deeply in the design process, who represent the audiences we're trying to expand our capabilities to include, and Sen. And we just really feel like you cannot practice inclusive design. Without that step. You know, you can't make assumptions because, you know, I guarantee if you're making assumptions without that input, they're going to be wrong. Yeah.Christina Mallon 13:40Yeah. And then Microsoft, we only consider products that are inclusive are ones that are co designed with communities. Because, you know, we believe that it is key to product success,Hannah Choi 13:54Right. So is, which would you say that, that like, how, how much does the idea of inclusive design come up in across to Microsoft as a whole? Like, is it it, would you say it's a conversation and and a viewpoint that the entire company has or is it is it more specific to certain products?Christina Mallon 14:26 Yeah, I mean, our mission is to create you know, tools, so that every single customer and enterprise customer and person on this earth can use it to reach their dreams and the company is bought into inclusive design. There are, you know, certain parts of the company where I feel like it was a design is used more. I definitely you know, if you have champions like Margaret, and Doug and they are specific In organizations, we see a lot of inclusive design. There are others where there isn't a strong champ of inclusive design, that less inclusive design happens.Hannah Choi 15:12And I suppose that's found, I mean, it's huge company.Christina Mallon 15:14So over 200,000 people, yeah.Doug Kim 15:19You know, it doesn't matter you can, you can be in a company of 200,000, or a company have like three things, you're trying to change behavior, it's always interesting what you have to, like, think about, right and plan for and strategize. So I think our situation is different. Obviously, we're at one of the biggest companies in the world. But like, you could be at a company of six and face like a similar set of challenges, and convincing people to work this way, developing expertise, you know, that's what the toolkit is about, just because we want to be able to like, like, empower the whole ecosystem, and give folks like yourself, like a set of tools that kind of like, normalizes the idea of inclusivity, it doesn't make it like an oddball thing that you only do, or think about, you know, once in a while, when you have the times likeHannah Choi 16:12that one person or something. Christina Mallon 16:14First original toolkit, over 2 million people have downloaded and used, we just launched the inclusive design for cognition, which we like to call Inclusive Design for Brain Stuff. And that launched it and we've seen a massive amount of users using it. But really, the Inclusive Design original toolkit is what led the way.Hannah Choi 16:38Yeah, I really love that. Something that I am, one of the goals of this podcast is to increase conversations about, you know, like, neurodivergent brains and how, and how, like, Let's break the stigma. And so I really love that you guys addressed that. saw that as a as a separate, not a separate, I don't want to say separate but like sight as its as its own area that needed attention. And that, and that needed that recognition and guidance for people who might not know what, you know, what people are experiencing. So I really love that that is that that is out? Are you seeing more and more people?Christina Mallon 17:28Now we're definitely a huge demand, Margaret, and Doug, get some original work around cognition. And as I took in the new role about, you know, two years ago, and change, we said, Okay, this work is so amazing. How do we get this in a more formalized toolkit? Because there is such a demand, I'm constantly getting LinkedIn messages, emails and say, Hey, how are you designing for people who have trouble focusing or making decisions or communicating? And that's why I reached out to both Doug and Margaret, when I joined to say, hey, can we build upon this work, and they really were, let's do it and signed up. And I really appreciate the partnership, because, you know, we're seeing a lot of usage of the toolkit, and also seeing it reflected and used by product makers at Microsoft and externally.Hannah Choi 18:25And I really love how the way that you created, it makes it I felt like, as I read it as a I don't, you know, I don't create products, but I do create, I do help my clients create, you know, systems that work well for them. And I really loved how it, I felt like it really encourages the reader from whatever viewpoint they're coming from, to consider what they need, and, and to consider how to ask for what they need. And here are some possible ideas and it just the way that you presented it is just really accessible. And it's kind of fun. And, you know, like the graphics are really fun. And I know that's just kind of like little stuff, but as a consumer, it made a difference for me when I was engaging with it. So anyone listening who hasn't checked out the Inclusive Design toolkits from Microsoft, I really highly recommend checking them out a lot of really good stuff in thereDoug Kim 19:35Inclusive dot Microsoft dot design, that's the website that they're on. Thank you, we promote and that's where like the original toolkit is there's a bunch of videos and guidance PDFs of what the new stuff on there and you know examples of how you know we've we've built these into products is these concepts.Hannah Choi 19:58So when you were creating them, how do you do come up with and kind of incorporate the five types of, of cognitive demands? Which for me are executive function skills, learning focus, decision making recall and communication. So I was just wondering like, how did you decide on those? Well,Doug Kim 20:23were you talking to Margaret? Oh, it's okay. Go ahead. No, you start.Margaret Price 20:29So it started with a pretty comprehensive, lit review. So looking at a lot of existing information from different fields of study, from psychology to cognitive science, to think about help us think about how do we frame this space? This is a really complex space. So how should we think about it? So we started with a lit review, then conducted hundreds of interviews with folks all around the world over a span of maybe two and a half years and 2015 2016. A lot of folks in academia to really deeply understand how can we think about perception, I can think about sensing and thinking, what are all of the different ways we could frame this? What are all the possibilities, and then we apply the inclusive design method to it, we brought in a lot of CO creators, we mapped a number of ways we could think about it, we started mapping the various dimensions. And actually, there's many, many, many more than our initial few. We prioritize these few based on the business opportunity for Microsoft, the opportunity for the world to have stronger impact on the need that we saw from people. And so all of this is grounded in evidence based research. And was prioritized based on where we saw the largest need in our communities.Doug Kim 21:59Yeah, and so like, I work on Azure, which is our, you know, enterprise oriented cloud services offering. And we did a lot of studies for how Azure works, or does not work for neurodivergent users. And so a lot of the things that we pulled out of those studies kind of found its way into the guidance that there's there in the toolkit, like decision making in Azure is, is kind of a huge deal like and you have to retain a lot of information to be able to effectively make effective decisions you have like dozens or hundreds of options to choose from to get a particular result that you're looking for. And so we wanted to kind of like abstract out some of these to the like, the cognitive types of functions that are at play here, and how we do or do not support them. So I think a lot of the some of the impetus to choose these came from, you know, the research that Margaret was referencing, but also kind of the experience of our users who are saying, like, this is where if I make the wrong move, I could be in big trouble. You know, you could write $1,000, as opposed to nothing. Yeah. So you hear that? And you go, Oh, okay, I get it. That's a tough call. Yeah.Hannah Choi 23:27Yeah. And if you can't confidently make those decisions, then you're going to be more stressed, which is going to impact your ability to use your executive function skills. Well, which is going to set you up for making more mistakes. So yeah, and that just shows you how important it is to consider these things for people who do not have a, you know, you know, that like don't have ADHD or don't, you know, have mental health struggles or whatever, you know, is impacting someone's someone at work, it's so important to consider that. And I love how you think about that scalability. I have how, you know, like, this thing, yes, it addresses a need here that everybody can actually use it and benefit from it.Doug Kim 24:19So I'm curious like for you, okay, so you're an executive functioning coach, very fascinating to learn how this kind of affects your work. Like one of the issues that came up for us was just consequences. Right? Am I aware when I'm going through a given experience, what the consequences of my decisions are? And if not, how do I move forward? So is that something that comes up for you like what, what are your clients telling you about consequences and the stuff that they need to be able to, like understand and move forward make decisions? You know, when the consequences are ambiguous? Hannah Choi 24:55Yeah, it's huge. And so much so much that comes out is confidence, the confidence to make any decision that they're making? And many of the people that I've worked with, have have spent their life feeling like they've been doing it wrong all along. And, and so to come to a space where question like, you know, like, I'm asking them questions like, what does work for you? What doesn't work for you? What have been the consequences of your actions in the past? And, you know, and and what do you kind of envision for yourself in the future? It's? Yeah, not really sure where I'm going with this. You're really, really, really, so much of what I do just real, I can really relate to the work that you guys have done in addressing. Yeah, the potential consequences that other people have to have in their life and the business decisions that they're making or whatever. Doug Kim 25:58Yeah, yeah, I think it goes back to sort of like, basically understand, like, what the, one of the one of the key concepts in the toolkit is trying to try to understand what the cognitive load is, like, how much demand are you putting on the on the user? And why and where does it come into your experience? Right? And so these are, the aspects of the dimension is how much you're asking them to remember how much you are you expecting them to project in terms of the the consequences of their decisions, I want you you're expecting them to be able to act on their own versus in collaboration with their teammates, or co workers. And I think these are normally things that we don't really discuss in depth, we're just sort of like build products, assuming that a person is acting alone, acting independently, and has all the tools that they need to be able to say, make an informed decision. And so, I mean, that's not totally true. I'm being a little bit. I'm exaggerating a little bit, just to make the point. But I think that one of the points of the toolkit is to say, don't make assumptions here, options about what your customer does or doesn't know or what they're expecting, as they're moving through an experience. Build it in a way so you understand what you're asking of your customers, you and understand the level of demand that you're placing on them to do anything, because every experience does that. Right. There's something that it's going to ask of you, right to say, like, if you jump into a car, like there's a presumption that you understand how to operate it, because you've passed the test, at some point, we're seeing all that stuff, the minute you turn on the ignition, right, there's an assumption that you know that when you press the brake, that the car is going to stop. So every, every experience does that to a certain extent. But not all product traders measure that, and weigh that and say, what actually, where are we assuming before somebody even, you know, starts the car? Margaret Price 28:10Well, I love what you're saying. And to build on it, I think it's a really great set of points that leads to the recognition. You know, there's a lot I mentioned, at the beginning of the call, I have ADHD, and I'm on the spectrum, and there's a lot of self-blame that can happen. What's wrong with me? Why can I use those sorts of thoughts? And I think that's where, you know, the worlds colliding and unlikely between what we do and a lot of what you do, which is, you know, as Doug mentioned, asking, what are the cognitive demands? And where are the mismatches between what's needed from the person and what the product is providing? And recognizing that it's not your fault. It's this product’s fault. Yeah, this is not built in a way that's going to serve you. Well. And this is not about you. This is about the product not being built. Good enough.Hannah Choi 29:03Yes. Yes. And that yeah, that's, that's many conversations that I have with my clients is being like, there's nothing wrong with you. This is how your brain works. And this and unfortunately, it is not the system, the world that we are in is not, you know, necessarily designed for that.Doug Kim 29:25Well, I think that's especially true with like, well, I don't know, I don't want to get into kind of a waiting thing. But like, you see, that was neurodivergent. Conditions like so commonly, like I think societally, like in this is true, I think, pretty much across the globe, we're like conditioned to say, put the onus on the person with that condition to adapt. Yep. It's an experience that wasn't built for them. And, you know, that's sort of like one of the key premises of the toolkit and this extension of the toolkit. deals with cognition, which is that no, like, that's, it's not you, it's us. It's not, it's not you, like, if it doesn't work for you, then that's a problem with a product, right? It's a problem with the environment or the world that were created, never expecting you to participate in. Like, if it doesn't work for you, then we need to adapt it, we need to come up with systems that normalize you to an extent that allows you to function as effectively or better than anybody else who's using a product. And, like, puts the onus on us as periodic creators, to, to adapt to you as opposed to the other way around. And the fact that our systems up until, you know, very recently, and like without this sort of understanding of how things work could work potentially a lot better for our interviewers. And folks. It's, it's, you know, it just hasn't been built that way. And, you know, I think our mission, like the three of us together, and now you and everybody else who's like involved in this inclusive design process, is is to upend that expectation, and say, it's the onus on people who are creating products. You know, I mean, you create a product, this podcast is a product, right. And it could be applied to anything that anybody, you know, makes,Christina Mallon 31:25I think, people are starting to see this, you see the World Health Organization, how they define disability as a mismatch between a person and a design. And I think that is really key because, again, as a disabled person, I'm told, okay, you need to figure out how to do this or fix this solution. Yeah, and it's really taxing. And this is something that's common in marginalized communities.Hannah Choi 31:54Yes. Yes. Yeah, I was just doing some research on, on advocating for yourself at work. And, and many of the articles that I read, said, unfortunately, it is on you, it will, in most situations, it will be on you to educate your employer, on what how to, you know, meet your needs. And so, it's, and that's, that's with any marginalized community, marginalized community, right. It's it, unfortunately, at this point, it is, it is on that group to educate everyone else. This inclusive design, the fact that Microsoft is embracing this so much shows us that that, like, that's a good role model. Do you think that within I mean, I guess you guys can only speak for the departments with it to work. But would you say that within it, or in your experience? Like, Christina, if you need something? Do you feel like you're, it is easy for you to advocate for yourself? Do you feel like that inclusive design concept spreads to the advocacy part? And for Costco? Yes,Christina Mallon 33:14I'm definitely empowered to implement inclusive design, and that the entire company has a pretty good understanding the importance of it. But the current state of the economy, with our focus on AI, there's definitely more begging that needs to get done for resources around it. And I think, you know, that's why people in positions of power really need to advocate for this. And that's why when I started, Doug, and Margaret, could empathize with me. And were able to provide, you know, their resources to help create the inclusive design for cognition toolkit.Hannah Choi 33:58And, and Doug and Margaret would like, where did where did your strength in, in, in your knowledge come from? Was that just from your experiencing your experience of creating this inclusive design? Or is that something that you have naturally already felt before you got into that?Doug Kim 34:19Everything I know comes from Margaret.Hannah Choi 34:24Margaret, you're amazing.Margaret Price 34:28You're all amazing. Yeah,Christina Mallon 34:30we're all amazingMargaret Price 34:32 lots of listening and learning. And I as a generalist strategist, I like to learn there's so many brilliant leaders in this space outside of Microsoft, who pioneered inclusive design long before Microsoft got in the business. And so a lot of listening and learning to brilliant folks. And we can, you know, give you links For show notes too. Yeah,Hannah Choi 34:58Thank you, I was just gonna say thatMargaret Price 35:01A lot of listening, a lot of learning a lot of synthesizing just a ton of information. And wanting to communicate it in ways, as you mentioned earlier that are simple for anybody to understand. And connecting dots that might seem not connectable, I have a background in research as well. And so I love listening and learning and connecting dots that might seem like they can't connect. And I think, you know, to your question earlier about advocating for ourselves in the workplace, I think, for me, a lot of it came from not as much inclusive design as the work on myself. And I think you do a lot of this with folks that you coach, probably, but really becoming, you know, keenly self aware about my needs, and how to communicate them and boundaries and how to communicate them. And recognizing that communicating well. And communicating in a way that's going to serve me is the absolute best thing that I can do, rather than ignoring or suppressing what I need.Hannah Choi 36:07Yeah, and so much of advice, like going back to the idea of how you have to, you know, it is on you as a person to advocate for yourself, and you might end up having to educate your employer. But a big part of that self advocacy is, you know, like, knowing yourself, and knowing what your boundaries are and right, like you said, like learning how to, how to ask for that. And yeah, that is, it's a lot of what I do. Yeah. And it's so funny, because I just, just over the past year, went through the whole ADHD diagnosis and answered all these life questions that I've had about myself for a very long time. And, and, you know, working at beyond booksmart, it was, it was like, not a thing, and not a big deal. It was, you know, it wasn't like I had to decide whether I was going to disclose and, and, you know, there were already so many systems built into, you know, built into how we do things at beyond booksmart. Because, because we are in the business of supporting people with executive function challenges. So I feel very lucky that I work at a company where I am just automatically supported, and that there are lots of people within the company who, you know, also, like, have shared needs or similar needs, or even different needs. And so a lot of our training materials are presented in many different formats. And, you know, there's, there's many different ways to interact and many different choices that you can make whatever works the best for you. And I know, that's not how it is that many places. And so I, I really hope that these kinds of conversations continue to happen that companies like Microsoft, and other I mean, you guys almost have like a, an I don't know, if you feel this way, but as a very large company, like you have a really big opportunity to, you know, to be a voice for this. I, you know, I like I kind of feel that way, there's a podcast host of like, well, I don't really have a lot of power, but I have a little bit of power, and I'm going to try to use it. So do you. Do you feel that? Do you feel like that responsibility? Christina Mallon 38:18Yeah, I mean, I took my job six months pregnant with my first child, which is kind of crazy. But I knew the power that Microsoft has to empower people like be to be able to achieve their dreams. And I already knew that the foundation has been set by people like Doug and Margaret. So it would come into a very inclusive company.Doug Kim 38:48Well, I would say that, you know, something that, like kind of struck me as you were talking when I was was like the, the idea that you have power, and I think everybody has power. And a lot of us have this tendency to like even regardless of what position we're in, to kind of under estimate what that what that power is. And so I think if you're in this, you care about this space, which if you made it this far into this episode, you obviously do. You can exercise your power on one on one, right, you can help shape conversation and you can help normalize things. If you're more of like from representing the ally ship side of things, you can learn more, you can reduce the burden on your colleagues or whoever it is to have to advocate for themselves. You can absorb information like our toolkit, but any of the other like, you know, amazing resources that are that there are out there to help, you know, again, create this expectation. ation of inclusion as a as a regular and standard practice. So there we're constantly stretching ourselves to be more inclusive and to include more audiences that haven't been included to this point. So it could be a one person company, it could be two people working together to see, you know, examine how they operate, could be a soccer club could be whatever a classroom. I don't think that work ever ends. But it's like, I think we found that it's joyful work, you know, it's inspiring work. Learn more about human human capability, and what you can do to enable and empower that. So, you know, it's also fun.Hannah Choi 40:48What creative work, problem solving, and something that you said in the beginning, just connected me back to what you were just saying. And you said, I think Margaret, it might have been you, you said, you asked people a lot of questions, the CO creators that you worked with. And then Doug, you said, you made a lot of mistakes in the beginning, I can't remember exactly who said what, but but I think that's part of that power is not being afraid to ask the questions, and not being afraid to make the mistakes. And, and that is so scary for people, especially when you're asking questions about something that you don't really know a lot about. Doug Kim 41:29So yeah, you know, sort of, you're bringing into mind this, or like, you know, that era that Margaret was referring to earlier, back 2014, 2015. You know, I just started, like, getting used to interviewing people with disabilities. And I was interviewing this woman who has a low vision person who used like, an extreme amount of magnification, and a third party tool to be able to magnify her, um, screens to something like 400 person, and I was watching her work and just kind of like, making little comments. And at one point, the, the screen magnification tool she was using just crashed and quit. And, you know, I was looking at her and I said, and I just kind of chalk. Well, I said, oh, shoot, like, it's a crash. Let's, let's reboot that out. And she just looks at me, she goes, Why are you laughing? And I said, Oh, well, it's just the like, a little glitchy thing. And she just said, you know, it's not a glitch. When this happens. It is so hard for me to get this back. And my livelihood, because she was an independent business person, right, who worked on her own. She said, You know, my livelihood could be drastically affected. Like every time this happens, and you know, Margaret's done a lot of research, too with customers who have said a lot of the same things around things like, you know, improperly coated, or created notifications and interruptions. There's a lot of science around that, too. But at the time, I was like, oh, boy, I just got a big lesson. Yeah. And understanding, you know, how to empathize with what people are experiencing. Yeah, so I view that as kind of, like, you know, a mistake on my part, in terms of how I reacted to what she was experiencing at the time. But something that has, like, continued to, like, help me understand how to move forward, and how to understand how to work with folks with disabilities, or with anybody really, anybody? Yeah, developing more like tools for empathy and understanding and how to keep you know, going deeper into this work. So those are, those are really helpful. Actually, I still pretty much think that, you know, like, if she remembers that at all, it's quite some time. Now, she probably didn't think much of me. But yeah, she's been enormously helpful. Just that one episode, to you know, whatever progress I've made my journey along this path.Hannah Choi 44:05Yeah, and going back to that power, I mean, that shows like the power of, of experiences for people, we, you know, we never know the impact that we might have on somebody. And so you guys probably don't even see the the impact that your work has, has had on, on everybody.Christina Mallon 44:25We get some nice notes here and there. But I think having people with disabilities within the company is super important. Because you're able to do these really quick empathy sessions and you can actually see oh man, this really does affect when the small design changes made. When we look at power and power dynamics, most people that are making decisions sit in an area where they have lots of power, they are white, they are male, they're educated. They speak English, upper middle class live in, you know, the states or the UK. And it is so important to have diversity within the company so they can influence these power makers or become one of the power people. And Microsoft does a good job of that, and really looking at hiring and trying to increase the exposure to people with disabilities. But you know, here's the thing, everyone's gonna make a mistake, I make mistakes about disability, and I'm disabled myself. So it's always a learning experience. And if people treat it as a learning experience, and don't get scared to even interact with someone that disability, life will be better. Yes,Hannah Choi 45:42I worked for a few years in the, in the students in the, like Disability Resource Center at a community college. And, and I just loved it, that diversity of employees within that, within that office, and then the students that came in, it was, it was I made a ton of mistakes, I made a ton of mistakes. And I learned so much. And it was, it was just such an amazing experience. So grateful for it. Yeah, I we're actually, I'm right in the middle of preparing for a webinar, we do these community education webinars, and we have one coming up a week from today. And it's about, it's about how to manage like perceived failure. And, and we're talking a lot about how, like, exactly that what you said, Doug, like that, that felt like a mistake, but you are still learning from it years later. And how how when you can change your viewpoint from seeing it as a mistake, and something to trip you up and stop you and switch it to see us something as that we can learn from and grow from. And you can separate a little bit separate, like your ego from it and and then become more, you know, just more aware and more understanding.Doug Kim 47:10Well, you know, yeah, and I think that, like, if you're coming from a position of ally ship, again, that you should expect to encounter a road where you have setbacks and you take on risks, you know, in, in your journey to like, you know, help serve that community or even understand more about that community, you you're part of the goal, I think of ally ship is to alleviate risk from other people and put it on yourself. And some of that risk is, you know, involved in in making mistakes. I mean, if I look at whatever the embarrassment that I felt in that moment that I was talking about, it's not much compared to what the person that I was trying to understand from past experience every day, every time that you know, magnifier crashes. And so like, if a second if I can take one second to have an embarrassing moment, and help, you know, ultimately create a better system for her, then that's really not much of a risk. But it is, it is, like a lot of people like think about, like a potential misstep like that as a huge risk. In some ways it is. It's embarrassing. It's not fun. But it's what you're doing is you're you're you're taking some like emotional discomfort, you know, or the possibility of emotional discomfort, you know, off somebody else's plate and putting it onto yours. That's a very that's, that's an expected and also a that's an outcome. You know, you should you should expect to have.Hannah Choi 48:54My favorite quote, ever is by Susan David, who's a psychologist, and she said, discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life. And I just love that so much.Margaret Price 49:08Oh, that's beautiful. I love Susan David.Hannah Choi 49:10I know I love her. She's so great.Margaret Price 51:21Delightful. Well, thank you so much for having us on. Because yeah, speaking of executive executive functioning skills, flexibility is part of that and my, and my rigid schedule, I am gonna have to hop. But really, it was such a delight. Meeting you, Hannah, and speaking with you, and of course, talking with two people that I just adore, Christina and Doug. So thank you for having us on and for discussing this important topic.Hannah Choi 51:52And that's our show for today. Thanks so much for taking time out of your day to listen and learn about inclusive design and for having some patience with me. You can find links to lots of inclusive design resources in the show notes, and please share this episode with your family or your friends who might help it find it useful. If you have questions or topic suggestions, you can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com and please subscribe to focus forward on Apple podcast Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple or Spotify, you can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop, and we'll share information related to the topic. Our very patient editor and producer is Sean Potts. Our thoughtful and creative content marketer is justice Abbott extra special thanks to Doug who brought Christina and Margaret onto the show with me and a million thank yous to the people at beyond booksmart who helped make our attendance at the ADHD conference possible. Thanks for listening

For many people (especially those with Executive Function challenges), managing money can be really stressful. If you can relate to this challenge and are thinking of sending a kid off to college, then learning how to plan your finances accordingly is something that’s worth being really proactive about. According to the Education Data Initiative, average tuition and fee rates have increased 130% since 1990 - and that’s after adjusting for inflation (yikes!) So, what can we do? Is there a way to approach saving for college that is less stressful and more effective than just wingin’ it or waiting till the last minute? Luckily, today’s guest is Shannon Vasconcelos, the Director of College Finance for Bright Horizons College Coach, and she joined me to discuss saving for college in a very executive function-friendly manner. In other words, she was the perfect expert I needed for this topic. Listen to learn from this college finance expert how you can approach this new exciting yet expensive chapter well prepared! Show notes: Bright Horizon’s College Coachwww.getintocollege.comGetting In: A College Coach Conversationhttps://getintocollege.com/Resources/Getting-In-PodcastYou Need a Budget (Hannah’s favorite budgeting tool)www.ynab.comSaving For Collegehttps://www.savingforcollege.com/Roth IRA and 529 Explainedhttps://www.savingforcollege.com/article/which-is-best-529-college-savings-plan-or-roth-iraMaking College Affordable: 5 Tips for Securing Scholarshipshttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/making-college-affordable-5-tips-for-securing-scholarships

Applying for college can feel like a monumental, overwhelming task - and that’s because it is! There are so many deadlines, details, and steps that could be missed even by someone with fantastic Executive Function skills - but does it have to be? I wondered how I could use the platform of Focus Forward to help those of you out there find some resources and strategies to set your kids up for success during this stressful time. Luckily, my colleague at Beyond BookSmart knew someone at McMillan Education, an organization whose goal is to help make the process of applying to college a little easier and less stressful for everyone. Rachel Leja, an educational consultant at McMillan came to my rescue! We met on a sunny morning just last week to have a chat about all things college - both before and after acceptance. Keep listening to learn how you can make the most of this next chapter and if your kiddos are too young to be thinking about college, tuck this episode away in your back pocket for the future. It’ll be here waiting for you!In the meantime, here are some show notes relate to the episode: Guide to Colleges for Students with Learning Differences (check your local library or school counseling office)https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Colleges-Students-Learning-Differences-dp-0593517407/dp/0593517407/ref=dp_ob_title_bkMcMillan Educationhttps://www.mcmillaneducation.com/WISE Advice on Educational Planning - McMillan’s Podcasthttps://www.buzzsprout.com/2134583Students with Disabilities Preparing for Postsecondary Education:Know Your Rights and Responsibilitieshttps://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/transition.htmlSelf-Advocacy for College Studentshttps://www.ldonline.org/ld-topics/self-esteem-stress-management/self-advocacy-college-students7 Ways to Support Your Teen During the College Application Processhttps://www.linkedin.com/pulse/7-ways-support-your-teen-during-college-application-ellis-mba-phd/

In this week's episode, I invited Eric Tivers, host of the popular ADHD ReWired Podcast, to join me on Focus Forward and we talked about the common feelings of shame experienced by individuals with ADHD. We explored the benefits of finding connection and support within the ADHD community and discussed some aspects of living a strategy-based life and take a little detour to talk about tennis and pickle ball scoring, classic ADHD tangent. Stick around to the end of our conversation to learn more about how to get in touch with Eric and about the high-quality services he and his team provide. Because of some timing and our Focus Forward hiatus, this episode was actually recorded back in May of this year, coinciding with my official ADHD diagnosis, and despite the time that has passed, the insights remain relevant. I'm delighted it's now October and ADHD awareness month so we can share this conversation with you all! Here are the show notes from today's episode:Hannah's guest appearance on ADHD ReWiredADHD ReWired Podcast2023 Annual International Conference on ADHDADHD Support Group SearchMy podcast episode with Dr. Jan WillerBeyond BookSmartHow to Keep Score in Pickle BallHow to Keep Score in TennisADHD ResourcesAdult ADHD Self-Report Scale (ASRS-v1.1)CHADDBeyond BookSmart’s ADHD Success KitHow to Thrive with ADHD After a DiagnosisEp 13: How to Unlock the Superpowers of ADHDWomen’s ADHD Wellbeing PodcastContact us!Reach out to us at [email protected]/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Hey, we're back! I'm so excited to bring you the first of many new episodes in our 3rd season of Focus Forward. Considering it's ADHD awareness month, I wanted to explore something relating ADHD that we hadn't done before. In this week's episode, we're tackling adult ADHD and the life-changing journey of getting a late diagnosis. This episode is particularly special for me as it documents my own personal journey in discovering that I have ADHD (in real time!) This journey of revelation began with a conversation I had last year with Dr. Jan Willer - a clinical psychologist who specializes in supporting those with ADHD. After our conversation, I began to seriously suspect that I, too, might have ADHD. In this episode, we'll explore the difficult question of "do I have ADHD or not?" and the impact that getting a diagnosis can have on our life and sense of self. I hope you enjoy this one! Resources Related to this EpisodeDr. Jan Willer’s ResourcesJan’s books on AmazonADHD ResourcesAdult ADHD Self-Report Scale (ASRS-v1.1)CHADDAdult ADHD ToolkitBeyond BookSmart’s ADHD Success KitHow to Thrive with ADHD After a DiagnosisEp 13: How to Unlock the Superpowers of ADHDWomen’s ADHD Wellbeing PodcastContact us!Reach out to us at [email protected]/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Wow, I can’t believe it. This is the last episode of our second season of Focus Forward. We started the season off with Rachel Hulstein-Lowe who joined me to talk about transitions and how to make them a little easier. We explored memory, college students, grief, cognitive flexibility, and much, much more. You supported us by downloading our new episodes, reviewing us on apple podcasts and Spotify, sending me emails of support, and subscribing to our podcast newsletter. My heart is truly full from it all. Thank you! We'll be back with more episodes for you early this fall 🍁 In the meantime....Today, we’re ending season two with an exploration of a really important Executive Function skill - organization. Although there are many dimensions to organization, I’ve dedicated this episode to just three that are particularly important: space, data, and belongings. Discover new strategies, approaches, and tools you can use to become more organized and live a more fulfilling life overall! Thank you again for your support and for being part of the Focus Forward community! Here are the show notes from today’s episode: Finding Motivation to Get OrganizedDecisional Balance Sheet for helping make a decision to change behavior: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Uwhjq0HZhGUdr6_Pfpq5U2flPjdb5jcLGmA54HNiO_c/edit?usp=sharingCassandra Aarsen’s Organization Quiz: Clutterbug.meHow to Help Your Child Get Organized: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/how-to-help-your-child-get-organizedThe Anxious, Stressed High School Student: An Executive Function Link: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/the-anxious-stressed-high-school-student-an-executive-function-linkGaining Calm by Organizing: How to Clear Your Space & Mind: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/meditation-in-organization-how-to-clear-your-space-mindEmail Organization InspirationBest Practices for Outlook: https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/office/best-practices-for-outlook-f90e5f69-8832-4d89-95b3-bfdf76c82ef8Get started with Gmail for Google Workspace: https://support.google.com/a/users/answer/9260550?hl=enSort’d, a Beyond BookSmart coach-recommended Chrome extension for Gmail organization: https://www.sortd.com/Contact us!Reach out to us at [email protected]/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Last week, I had a blast hosting another free webinar for Beyond BookSmart that was all about ADHD. Amy McDuffie, an Executive Function coach and ADHD expert, joined me to explore how the ADHD brain works and what the roles of medication, therapy and executive function coaching are within the larger umbrella of ADHD treatment. We also took some time to cover some of our coaches’ favorite tools and strategies that can support the areas of executive functioning that people with ADHD often struggle with, and featured psychiatrist, Dr. Theresa, to fill in some of our expertise gaps around ADHD medication. So, today, I’m bringing you the audio from the webinar AND a bonus Q&A section that Amy & I did after the webinar (there were just too many great questions we didn’t get to!) If you joined us live and just want to hear the bonus content, you can skip ahead to around 47 minutes to listen to just that. And if you didn’t get a chance to watch the webinar at all, be sure to look for the link in the show notes below!For those who have been blessed with careful ears, you’ll hear me share in this episode that I was recently diagnosed with ADHD myself. Because of my recent diagnosis, this episode is particularly close to my heart. I hope you enjoy listening half as much as I enjoyed being a part of these important conversations and if you do, be sure to give us a 5-star review on the platform you’re listening on! And last but certainly not least, thank you for being a part of the Focus Forward community. Here are the show notes for this week: Watch our webinar, How to Thrive with ADHD After a Diagnosishttps://thinkingoutsidetheclassroom.wistia.com/medias/u3pueh40rsSlides from our webinar, How to Thrive with ADHD After a Diagnosishttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/hubfs/How%20to%20Thrive%20with%20ADHD%20After%20a%20Diagnosis%202023.pdfWatch our webinar about Motivation:https://thinkingoutsidetheclassroom.wistia.com/medias/o3it96iuotBeyond BookSmart ADHD Success Kithttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/adhd-success-kit-2022Focus Forward Ep 13: How to Unlock the Superpowers of ADHDhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=by637tasziFocus Forward Ep 18: Flipping the ADHD Narrative: How "The Disruptors" is Changing the Way We Talk About ADHD (ft. Nancy Armstrong)https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=wwh3rsdpbw2-Minute Neuroscience: ADHDhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8JnDhp83gA

Resilience is a topic I've wanted to explore for a long time on the podcast. After all, how can we continue to work on ourselves if our progress is always getting cut short? So in this week's episode, we're going to explore 6 tips for becoming more resilient in your life. When I started doing the research for today’s episode on how to handle sliding back when you’ve made some progress, something about my search terms brought up a bunch of articles on how to handle sliding while driving on icy roads. I was going to pass these over but then I got a little distracted and a little curious about what the pros have to say about this. Living in New England, knowing how to handle driving on icy roads is a requirement so I thought I should brush up on my knowledge. And, as I read through the article, I realized that all of the tips they suggested applied quite well to sliding back when making progress! So, today’s episode is a two-fer! It will teach you about managing both sliding while driving on icy roads and sliding back after making good progress. Once again, Focus Forward to the rescue! Here are some resources related to the episode.How to handle backslides: https://www.scottsfortcollinsauto.com/what-do-you-do-if-your-car-is-sliding-on-ice/Resilience Resources:https://www.apa.org/topics/resiliencehttps://www.child-encyclopedia.com/resilience/according-experts/protective-role-executive-function-skills-high-risk-environmentshttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6403185/https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/how_to_hardwire_resilience_into_your_brainJames Clear: https://jamesclear.com/get-back-on-trackEmotional regulation: https://developingchild.harvard.edu/science/key-concepts/executive-function/Consistency: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9iZTI4OGFjL3BvZGNhc3QvcnNz/episode/NDBjMDBiMTUtMzMwMy00OGVjLWI2OWMtMGE3ZjNmNDlmZGI3?ep=14Breaking streaks:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/ulterior-motives/202306/how-broken-streaks-sap-motivation

In this week's episode, we explore the fascinating world of the human brain and its impact on stress management, parenting, and relationships. We had the privilege of inviting Dr. Alison Roy, a licensed clinical psychologist, and a bona fide brain enthusiast. I first heard Dr. Roy speak during the pandemic, and her insights on the brain, trauma, stress, and parenting were truly impactful.In our conversation, Dr. Roy sheds light on the science behind our reactions to stress and provides practical advice on how to maintain control and leverage our executive function skills—the skills governed by the pre-frontal cortex, a term you've probably heard me mention quite often. The aim? To improve and maintain our relationships, make parenting a bit easier, and in general, navigate life with a better understanding of our own minds.I urge you to listen to this episode, even if you're not a parent or caregiver. Much of the advice that Dr. Roy shares is universally applicable, and her passion for educating others about the brain is truly infectious. I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I relished being a part of it.Here some relevant resources related to the conversation:Dan Siegel’s Bookshttps://drdansiegel.com/books/Hand Model of the Brain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-m2YcdMdFwPolyvagal theory in practicehttps://ct.counseling.org/2016/06/polyvagal-theory-practice/YouTube Video of Dr. Stephen Porges explaining the polyvagal theoryhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec3AUMDjtKQMaslow’s hierarchy of needshttps://www.thoughtco.com/maslows-hierarchy-of-needs-4582571Dr. Alison Roy’s websitewww.dralisonroy.comBeyond BookSmarthttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/

You may or may not know this, but in addition to hosting our podcast, I recently started hosting the free webinars Beyond BookSmart offers to help teach people about executive function skills and related challenges. We have panelists who add their insight and perspective and we cover a wide variety of topics but in a live setting, it's such a blast and I really love being able to connect with more people who are excited to learn about Executive Function skills and discover how life changing they can be to work on. We thought it would be fun to bring the audio from our latest webinar, “Your Kid’s Not Lazy: How to Unlock Motivation Through Executive Function” to our Focus Forward listeners and share some bonus content for those who happened to be among the 1300 people who registered.This past week's webinar was all about motivation, how it works, their related Executive Function skills and challenges and some tools and strategies you can use to help make motivation a little easier for your kids and/or yourself. Throughout our webinars, we always invite people to ask questions using the q&a feature on Zoom and then we answer as many as we can at the end of the presentation on the feature topic. For this webinar, there were so many great questions left after we finished up the webinar and we really, really wanted to answer as many as we could. So, I invited our panelists, Amy McDuffie and Vin Kachurik to join me the day after to help answer a whole bunch more. Keep listening after the webinar audio to hear our bonus conversation. We cover all sorts of topics, including motivating kids with Oppositional Defiant Disorder, college survival skills, and self-advocacy, and using planners and calendars to support that planning, prioritizing and time management executive function skills. I really hope you enjoyed today's episode, and that you learn about motivation and its challenges, which is something I think we can all relate to. The new section starts around 44:08 if you want to skip right to it! If you're interested in actually attending the webinars live, you can find more about them in the resources section of our website, BeyondBookSmart.com. They're always free and we put a ton of work into them to make sure they're truly useful, relevant and relatable.In the meantime, here are some resources related to the episode: Full recording of the webinarMichael Delman's book, Your Kid's Gonna Be OkayBlog on ADHD & MotivationLink to agenda and webinar slides: Info about Executive Function coachingSupporting College Students - including Covey QuadrantsHow to Increase Motivation With ADHD: 10 Tips From Treatment ExpertsDr. Lisa Damour’s Advice for Motivation to Do Homework

Okay, so today we’re getting real. Recently, a coworker shared with me how her friend has long struggled with working as a nurse while also having ADHD. This friend was lucky enough to find a position at a hospital that truly supports and embraces her, but many are not as lucky. And although ADHD is commonplace in the healthcare space, its challenges are often stigmatized and swept under the rug - creating an epidemic of shame that can feel isolating and overwhelming. After all, imagine what it feels like to constantly help others when you yourself are struggling everyday? To help shed light on this subject, we reached out to an Executive Function coach of ours, Beth Malvino, who coaches two social workers, Lina and Cassie. Together, they bravely shared their stories about the difficulties they’ve faced in managing their own executive dysfunction while supporting others' mental wellbeing. Their stories are powerful and filled with important wisdom around the unique challenges that healthcare workers with ADHD encounter and what can be done to overcome them. We explore self-care, the limitations for neurodiverse people within the systems in which we work and live, and combating that negative narrative that runs through the heads of many people with ADHD. I am sure that anyone listening who has Executive function challenges and works in healthcare spaces will really relate to much of what you’ll hear on this episode. NOTE: There is some very light swearing in this episode. If you’ve got any young kids with you who happen to be super interested in the impact of ADHD on healthcare workers, you might want to give them a heads up.Finally, I also wanted to share that we have a podcast email now! You can reach out to me at [email protected]. Send me your episode topic ideas! I’d love to hear from you.In the meantime, here are the show notes from today's episode: Tips For Nurses Managing Their Attention Deficit Disorder:https://blog.diversitynursing.com/blog/tips-for-nurses-managing-their-attention-deficit-disorderA Day in the Life of a Healthcare Professional with Executive Function Challenges:https://www.worksmartcoaching.com/blog/a-day-in-the-life-of-a-healthcare-professional-with-executive-function-challenges8 Tips For How To Thrive As A Nurse With ADHD | NurseJournal:https://nursejournal.org/articles/how-to-thrive-as-a-nurse-with-adhd/ADHD - Workplace Issues:https://chadd.org/for-adults/workplace-issues/

If you’ve been listening to Focus Forward for a while, you know that many of our episodes so far have been focused on teens and adults - but what about the younger kiddos? While we tend to think about how Executive Function skills impact us later in life, these skills do start developing in infancy. I thought it would be helpful to explore what Executive Function skill development looks like in young children, how we can better support them and ourselves in this critical stage of development.In today’s episode, we’ll learn about this topic from three people who have a depth of insight and experience. First up, you’ll hear from Maria Ares, who joined me to talk about supporting Executive Function skill development in the littlest ones in our lives. Maria is a speech language pathologist at a public preschool. And, guess what? She’s also my sister! After my conversation with Maria, you’ll hear from Stephanie Regan and Mariam Mahmoud who joined me to talk about elementary-aged kids. Both Stephanie and Mariam have worked in elementary education and have lots of experience supporting young children. Maria, Stephanie, and Mariam are all Executive Function coaches with Beyond BookSmart and bring their coaches’ perspective to the conversation. I know you'll enjoy learning from their expertise as much as I have! Here are some resources related to our conversation:A Guide to Executive Function - Harvard University Center on the Developing Childhttps://developingchild.harvard.edu/guide/a-guide-to-executive-function/Peg Dawson’s Smart but Scattered Bookshttps://www.smartbutscatteredkids.com/books/Child Mind Institute Guide to Executive Functioninghttps://childmind.org/topics/executive-functions/Executive Function Skills by Agehttps://lifeskillsadvocate.com/blog/executive-function-skills-by-age/Downloadable Guides by Age from Harvard Universityhttps://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/activities-guide-enhancing-and-practicing-executive-function-skills-with-children-from-infancy-to-adolescence/Focus Forward Ep 6: What Does Life Changing Executive Function Support (Really) Look Like? Perspective from a mom with kids who have executive function challengeshttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=zn7ksmofjm

When it comes to helping students learn more efficiently, Executive Function skills are the greatest tool teachers have at their disposal. Yet, many teachers aren’t aware of their value, and the ones that do often don't know how to support them in the classroom. For example, we had one teacher ask us on our Facebook page how teachers can support their own Executive Function challenges while also managing a classroom full of kids who have varying degrees of Executive Function challenges, too. As soon as I read this question, I knew EF in the classroom was an important topic to cover on Focus Forward - and that I also had the perfect people to reach out to. BrainTracks is a separate division of Beyond BookSmart that’s focused on training teachers in Executive Function tools and strategies that they can use in the classroom. I invited the program’s director, Susan Lohman, and one of their School Training specialists, Allison Larthey, to talk about the role Executive Function skills play in the classroom and how teachers can help both their students and themselves develop these skills further. Listen in to learn how you can apply these same strategies to find more time and energy for learning at home or in the classroom. I hope you enjoy the conversation. Be sure to check out the relevant links and resources below that were mentioned in the episode!BraintracksBraintracks WebsiteBraintracks ResourcesYour Kid's Gonna Be Okay by Michael DelmanEp 15: Building Meaning: Life Lessons from an Executive Function PioneerTools6 Steps to Successful Goal Setting for Students (and Adults!)SMART Goals - How to Make Your Goals AchievableCircle of concern v Circle of control – Discovery in ActionMirror NeuronsMirror neurons: Enigma of the metaphysical modular brain - PMCThe Mind's Mirror

Although each and every Executive Function skill is essential for success in today’s world, one that’s too often-overlooked (if not forgotten entirely) is cognitive flexibility. Whether you’ve heard about this skill or not, cognitive flexibility is critical for adapting to difficult situations and just overall feeling like we have control over our lives. I really wanted to explore it in its own episode, so here we are! I’m going to show you why it’s so important for us, talk about how it fits into our lives, and share some tips for helping to develop cognitive flexibility skills of our own and of the kids in our lives. If you’re dying for more information about this after you’re done listening, check out the show notes below:Learn More About Cognitive FlexibilityDemystifying cognitive flexibility: Implications for clinical and developmental neuroscienceFlexible Thinking Problems in Kids | UnderstoodKids Use Flexible Thinking to Learn | Executive Functioning Skills | UnderstoodImprove your Cognitive Flexibility SkillsWhat is Flexible Thinking? How to Become a Flexible ThinkerCircle of concern v Circle of control – Discovery in ActionThe Importance of Taking the Perspective of OthersMeditation, mindfulness and cognitive flexibility3 Ways to Improve Your Cognitive FlexibilityCognitive Flexibility Resources from the Beyond BookSmart Blog2 Executive Function Skills to Help Parents Beat Back to School StressGrit + Executive Function skills = Academic SuccessTranscriptHannah Choi 00:00Have you heard of cognitive flexibility? Hannah's Daughter 00:02Oh, yeah.Hannah Choi 00:03Why?? Hannah's Daughter 00:04Every day! Cuz I have you as a mom!Hannah Choi 00:08So what's cognitive flexibility?Hannah's Daughter 00:09It's when you have to change the way you're thinking to get something to work.Hannah Choi 00:14Hi, everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. As you may have gathered from what you just heard, I'm tackling the topic of cognitive flexibility, or flexible thinking in today's episode. That was my daughter, giving you a little insight into what it's like having an executive function coach for a mom. In Episode 19, Dr. Lisa Shulman, and I talked about the impact of grief and emotional trauma on our executive functioning. And she and I agreed that the often overlooked executive function skill of cognitive flexibility is critical for feeling like we have control over our lives and being successful in making positive changes for ourselves. I really wanted to explore it in its own episode. So here we are, I'm going to show you why it's so important for us, talk about how it fits into our lives, and share some tips for helping to develop cognitive flexibility skills of our own, and of the kids in our lives. If you're dying for more information about this, after you're done listening, check out the show notes. Hannah Choi 00:17All right, so let's get into this. What is this cognitive flexibility? It is the ability of your brain to switch from one task to another, one situation to another, and to be able to think about things in a new way, by switching from one set of ideas to another. Being able to think flexibly comes in handy in many, many aspects of our daily lives. You heard my daughter say that it can be used to help you problem solve. And here are some other ways we might use it. Okay, so you know, when you find out there's a new and pretty major update to an app you've always used, you now need to use a different set of steps to complete the same task as before. That's cognitive flexibility. If you are a kindergarten teacher, and you're talking with your students about kindergarten, new things, and then your school principal comes into the classroom, you use cognitive flexibility to talk with the principal in a different way than you are just talking with your students. If the way that you studied in high school, or kept track of your homework assignments does not seem to be working as well in college, you'll need to use cognitive flexibility to figure out a new system. And one more because I'm not kidding, cognitive flexibility really does come in handy in all aspects of our lives. Okay, so you're sitting at the dinner table for Thanksgiving and your uncle who has completely opposite political views than you is praising a politician you dislike, Being able to defend and explain your point of view, while also seeing and at least trying to understand how he could believe what he believes, that requires cognitive flexibility. And some patience. My son, who plays the violin in a fifth grade townwide orchestra shared how he used cognitive flexibility the other day. Hannah Choi 03:28Can you think of an example of how you use cognitive flexibility today?Hannah's Son 03:33Well, today after school, I had orchestra practice, when I had realized that my music which is in my backpack, we had dropped it off at home, so I didn't have my music. So I was like, oh, no, I don't have my music. But then I realized that I could easily use my stand partners music, and everything would be okay.Hannah Choi 03:53Yeah, so your flexible thinking cognitive flexibility helps you relax and realize it's gonna be fine. Hannah's Son 03:58Yeah. Hannah Choi 03:59Great. I'm so glad that you thought of that. Did you feel better after you thought of it? Hannah's Son 04:03Yeah. Hannah Choi 04:04Oh, good. Okay, so we can see that cognitive flexibility is helpful in our day to day lives. But are there long-term benefits to being cognitively flexible? Studies have found that greater cognitive flexibility is associated with favorable outcomes throughout our lives, such as better reading abilities and childhood, higher resilience to negative life events and stress in adulthood, higher levels of creativity in adulthood, and better quality of life in older individuals. Hannah Choi 04:37Cognitive flexibility does not work on its own. It happens in our brains with the help of some other partner ie if skills, attention, we need to pay attention to what we're doing and also notice what has changed what you were doing before, what you need to do now and how they're different. Working memory, we need to remember the new rules or the new actions that have been created for whatever task needs to be completed. And this could be in school, at work or in our homes. Self-regulation, we need to be able to inhibit or stop doing what we used to do, and now do the new thing. And also being able to regulate our emotions when we're switching to a new way is helpful. Planning and prioritizing skills can help too, we can use them to figure out the best order of the new steps that we'll have to take and see the value in prioritizing the new way of doing things over the old way. And our good old friend metacognition plays a big part in it to being able to understand our own thinking can really help us change it. Cognitive flexibility becomes largely mature by the age of 10. But these skills continue to improve throughout adolescence and into adulthood. And like all the other executive function skills, they reached their peak between the ages of 21 and 30. But as we know, everyone varies and where their strengths and challenges are. Hannah Choi 06:06We hear idioms and phrases in everyday language that reference cognitive flexibility. People may say they used mental gymnastics to figure something out, or that they need to wrap their head around something. We also hear references to the idea of cognitive inflexibility or rigid thinking. The idea is that you can't teach an old dog new tricks and describing someone as stuck in the mud. You might be familiar with this rigid thinking as showing up as stubbornness or strong willpower, no anybody like that. If you or your child struggle with cognitive flexibility, you might see or experience things like having trouble understanding others perspectives, arguing the same point over and over, getting anxious when plans change, struggling to take on new and more complicated tasks, or maybe having trouble switching from one activity to another, or getting upset when others don't follow the rules. At times, even as adults we struggle with thinking flexibly. And this doesn't mean that we haven't matured into our fully flexible prefrontal cortexes. Sometimes we just don't want to be flexible, sometimes it feels easier to keep things as they were, because it requires effort, a new way of thinking, changing the way we've done something or admitting that maybe the way that we've done something is not necessarily the best for us, or the situation. It requires us to use all those related EF skills that I mentioned earlier. And this is a lot of work. And it also requires some level of risk taking. If we take the risk of thinking about doing something another way, we might accidentally come up with a new idea that could possibly work, which we'll then have to try to see if it does. And for some people trying new things. And taking those risks thinking differently, can be a little uncomfortable. I notice for me sometimes, especially when I think it's going to be hard. Hannah Choi 08:03One thing that can make it a little easier is having someone along for the ride. If cognitive flexibility is difficult for you, I suggest finding someone who can support you, meeting you exactly where you are, I believe it can really, really helped to make those uncomfortable new decisions a little easier. And sometimes give you that gentle push, you need to get out of your own way. This person could be a friend, a colleague, a teacher, a sibling, or parent, or an executive function coach or a life coach. We can ask for advice or hear shared experiences, run our new ideas by them or brainstorm some when we're having trouble thinking of any. We can also ask them to provide feedback and some accountability. This makes me think about something that my former client Andrew shared with me, you might remember him from our ADHD Awareness Month episode,Hannah's Son 08:53What you said about having somebody on your side, the value of that in and of itself cannot be overstated. That was one of the most meaningful parts of coaching was just knowing that I could show up as I am. And you met me exactly where I was. There was no expectation that I was supposed to be anything other than what I was at that moment in time. And we were going to meet there. And then we were going to figure out where we wanted to go. And then we would make some plans to get there.Hannah Choi 09:30So basically, I'm saying that making positive changes to our habits and in our lives often is hard. So having some confidence to do this, to take these risks can really help. In order to find that confidence. We must find things that truly work for us. To find these things. We must be able to use our cognitive flexibility access it to imagine that things can even be done differently than we're currently doing them. And we don't have to do this hard work alone. Let's all make sure we've got got someone to support us. Hannah Choi 10:01In addition to making changes to how we do things, cognitive flexibility can help us in other major areas of our lives. It helps with resolving conflict by helping us be able to see other people's perspectives, remember the uncle at the Thanksgiving table, and figure out how to compromise by imagining a solution to a common goal. This compromised solution may require giving up some of our own desires. But cognitive flexibility helps us to see how even without the desires that we had to sacrifice, we can still reach some kind of agreement. Cognitive flexibility also helps us cope with major changes and stressors by giving us the powerful tool of self-efficacy. Self-efficacy is the ability to feel like we have control over our lives and our choices. When we're in the middle of a major life change, such as a divorce, or the loss of a spouse or a major cross country move, feeling like we have some control makes a huge difference. When thinking flexibly comes easily to you, it can make all of these changes much easier to handle. Dr. Shulman shared some great ideas about this. So if you haven't listened to the conversation yet, highly recommend checking it out. Hannah Choi 11:20Okay, so we now know what cognitive flexibility is, we know what the related EF skills are that support our ability to think flexibly. And we've learned how cognitive flexibility can support us in various aspects of our lives. But how do we get better at it? How can we reinforce the development of those skills in ourselves, and if we have kids in our lives, in them, too. I think the first thing we can do is try to make sure that we're taking care of ourselves. It's much easier to access our own flexible thinking when our own needs have been met as much as possible. And I know that this is asking a lot. We have a billion daily challenges, frustrations, limitations, that can make it difficult for us to put on our own oxygen masks, nevermind the masks of those in our care. But at least thinking about this and attempting to address some or even just one of our own self care needs first can help. Hannah Choi 12:22Also, learning about cognitive flexibility is super important. So yay for you for listening to this episode. It can really help to understand that all people, including ourselves, are at their own personal level of ability to think flexibly and make change. As Andrew said, it truly is helpful having someone supporting you through who understands how you feel about making changes, and how much flexibility you are able to access at the time. By understanding the differences in people's abilities, it is easier to meet them where they are in their readiness to think flexibly. And working on our own cognitive flexibility can help ease friction between ourselves and other people in our lives. Whatever age they are, and whatever relationship we have with them. Even as an EF coach, I find that I still need to practice this. I have a client who's a freshman in college, and I was having trouble understanding why he did not want to put specific times to study on his calendar. When I asked him to explain his thinking to me, he shared that he's learned that if he does schedule it, and then let it slide even just once. It's like a slippery slope, and then he'll start letting the other things slide too. For me, this is not the way I work. I love scheduling work time, I had to think flexibly to understand his perspective. This kind of stuff happens all the time with my own kids too. But by having that conversation, figuring out the difference and thinking and working together to understand each other's perspectives, it can make a big difference. And in and also reduce some of that friction and frustration that we feel when we butt heads with our kids. You might argue back that my client should use cognitive flexibility to try out my way of scheduling his study times. But he knows himself, he knows that it won't work. So I needed to give him the autonomy and the space to make that decision to do it his way. If he did not know himself so well and just didn't want to try it. I might have encouraged him to at least just try it once and see how it felt. But ultimately, it would be up to him. His own flexible thinking will develop on his own timeline. Hannah Choi 14:38There are a lot of activities and tools that are helpful for practicing flexible thinking. I'll share some here but check out the show notes for more ideas. As we coaches always say to our clients, when you're trying something new, start small. Maybe if you always cook the same few meals, you could try a new recipe. You could try driving it Different way to work or a new route on your morning run. This reminds me of the conversation I had with Rachel Holstein low in Episode 12. We talked about how you can practice mindfulness by doing something in a different way than you usually and automatically do. So you could brush your teeth with your other hand, or dry yourself off with a towel in a different order than you normally do. The practice of mindfulness has been shown in studies to help in many ways, including improving your attention and your ability to think flexibly. Hannah Choi 15:32A tool that I really like to use is called zooming out, or the 30,000 foot view. This tool works by challenging yourself to look at a situation from different perspectives. For example, my daughter was feeling really stressed out by an upcoming math midterm exam. Because she was in it and feeling completely overwhelmed. I tried to support her cognitive flexibility by encouraging her to zoom out to the day of the test and imagine how she'll feel. Then I asked her to consider how she'd feel if she zoomed out even more to the week after the test. And then to this coming summer, and then even more to when she's graduating from high school. This exercise helped her get out of her current state of thinking, and helped her see that yes, in this moment, it feels like everything. But truly, it's just a blip a fraction of her life. Hannah Choi 16:31Another thing that can be helpful for supporting cognitive flexibility is the concept of a growth mindset. A growth mindset is a belief that intelligence and our abilities are not fixed, that we can change, we can learn we can grow as humans, especially when we learn to think flexibly and find out what areas we are strong in and what areas might need some extra support, and what areas maybe we should completely avoid. I may have wanted to be a doctor growing up, but memory and word recall are not my strong points. So being a doctor would probably not have been the best career choice for me. Hannah Choi 17:11There is a great activity that supports the development of cognitive flexibility from Stephen Covey called the Circles of Concern, Influence and Control. Okay, so if you can imagine a target with three concentric circles, the outer circle represents things you are concerned about. The middle circle are the things you have some influence over. And the small center circle represents the things you actually have control over. thinking flexibly here helps you figure out where the various aspects of your life fit into this target. During the lockdowns or the pandemic, you might have placed the spread of COVID 19 as something that concerned you, but you had no true influence or control over it at all. If you worked from home, you would have had some influence over your workspace by setting up a nice desk in a separate area of the house. But you would not have been able to control any potential interruptions completely. Washing your hands frequently. And wearing a mask when you went out for groceries could go in the middle circle as something that you could control. Learning to be flexible in your thinking here can ease some of the anxiety and pressure we may feel when we're trying to control things that we actually only have influence on or perhaps cannot control at all. Hannah Choi 18:38For younger kids, you could play a divergent thinking game, find objects around the house and think of things that the objects could be other than what they truly are. This cup is not a cup. It's a swimming pool for a fairy. This pencil is not a pencil. It's a balance beam for the caterpillar Olympics. And that tree is not a tree. It's a portal to another world.Hannah Choi 19:04And that's our show for today. I hope you are able to find your portal to a new world of possibilities using your newfound or more developed cognitive flexibility skills. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen. Help us help others to learn about executive function skills such as cognitive flexibility. By sharing our podcast with your colleagues, your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple or Spotify give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Have you ever wondered if you're spending too much time on your phone or computer? Well, then you're certainly not alone. Screen use behaviors are top of mind for so many people these days - and for good reason. Over the last few years, our world has fully transformed itself around this technology to a point where spending a majority of our day looking at a screen has become the norm in much of our society. And although screen overuse was a problem pre-pandemic, the issue has accelerated exponentially over the last few years, bringing with it an array of crisis-level challenges for so many people. So what can we do to achieve screen time sanity in today's digital world? To help answer this question, I reached out to Dr. Clifford Sussman, a renowned child and adolescent psychiatrist in the Washington, DC area, who supports kids and their families who are at the extreme end of struggling with finding balance in their screen use - and I say balance because, well let's face it... screens are an avoidable part of life in today's world and its future. As a remote-working parent with a tween who loves video games and a teen who loves her phone, I find it very challenging to find a healthy balance, not feel like a hypocrite, and just feel OKAY about my own screen use decisions. However, I learned from my conversation with Dr. Sussman that there are practical things we can all do to find that balance for ourselves and those in our lives we care about. Listen in to our conversation and learn some practical strategies you can use to achieve screen time sanity and find your own balance in our modern digital world.Here are some links to more information about Dr. Sussman and this episode's topic.Learn More About Dr. SussmanDr. Sussman's Website on TrainingsThe Ross Center - Assessment and Treatment of Digital Use DisordersDr. Sussman’s YouTube ChannelThe Ross CenterScreen Use & Executive Function SkillsBeyond BookSmart’s collaboration with Dr. SussmanScreenagers by Delaney RustonTranscriptHannah Choi 00:00Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:00Okay, confession time. Are you listening to me but also looking at something on your phone? It's okay if you are, we can't help it. Instagram, tick tock games, even news websites are created in ways that make you want it. Need it, even when you're doing something else. Our screen use behaviors are top of mind for many people these days. Before the pandemic, it was a problem. Now, for some it's a crisis. Hannah Choi 00:00I reached out to Dr. Clifford Sussman, a child and adolescent psychiatrist in the Washington, DC area, who supports kids and their families who are at the extreme end of struggling with finding balance and their screen use. And notice I said balance. What I learned from Dr. Susman is that balance is the key screens are a part of life, they're not going anywhere. We all know that they have many, many benefits. And when used in a healthy way, we can learn some pretty great skills that apply to other areas of our lives. As a parent of a tween who loves video games, and a teen who loves her phone. And as someone who works remotely from home on a computer for much of the day, married to a partner who also works remotely from home and is literally on a computer all day, I find it very challenging to find a healthy balance and not feel like a hypocrite and just feel okay about my own screen use decisions. I learned from Dr. Sussman that there are practical things that we can do to find that balance for ourselves, and connect with our kids to help them find it. And notice that I didn't say they're easy things we can do. It's definitely not easy. But there is some hope in there that with some focused and thoughtful effort, we can hopefully find that balance and feel better about our own screen use. And if we have kids, there's too. Okay, onto the show. Hannah Choi 00:00Hi, Cliff. Thanks so much for joining me on my podcast.Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:17Thanks for having me.Hannah Choi 02:18Um, would you like to introduce yourselves to our listeners?Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:21Sure, sure. My name is Dr. Clifford Sussman. I'm a child and adolescent psychiatrist. And I actually specialize in treating internet and video game use disorders. So all of my patients pretty much have some form of problems with excessive screen use.Hannah Choi 02:42Yeah, and that is a hot topic, especially after coming out of that, after having gone through the pandemic and even before, so how did you? How did you get into that? Why is that? How did it become such an important issue for you?Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:57Well, I guess it started, or, you know, early in childhood, discovering I love computers, myself, and I love screens myself. And I was I was always on video games when I was younger, or trying to design them myself. And then eventually learned to code and, and, you know, got really into all that stuff. And then when I became a psychiatrist, and went into private practice, specializing in mostly teenagers, parents were coming in from the day I started about 15 years ago, and telling me that their kids were addicted to video games. So this is long before the pandemic. And I would evaluate these kids because oftentimes, the parents had been that had been dismissed by by the providers they'd seen before me. And so but I would evaluate these kids and I find out that, you know, look, they, they, they have a lot of the same problems that the people I'm seeing, that I saw in my addiction rotations during residency had, you know, the seeking the, the constantly lying, the stealing, the aggression, the defensiveness, the, you know, all sorts of problems with, with, with, with the family, in the family. So, I decided to really do some research, you know, just do a lot of read a lot of studies about how the brain was affected by excessive screen use and comparing those studies to how the brain was accessed was affected by use of other substances. And, you know, started finding a lot of similarities. And eventually I decided that this problem was becoming so big and these people really needed help. That I just I decided that I really could just just work on that. And yeah, and so that there was a lot more demand than supply and providers for this problem and So, you know, and I would collaborate with a few other colleagues who are recognizing this too. You know, when we compare notes on how, you know, what was working and what wasn't. And I would base a lot of my treatments on treatments that had been effective for drug addiction, such as motivational interviewing, motivational interviewing, which is a type of psychotherapy, that's like a mix of cognitive behavioral therapy, and psychodynamic psychotherapy. And, you know, and it just sort of took off from there. And then, after the pandemic, the problem got to be so huge, even during the pandemic, but especially when people started returning to schools and having more demands placed on them. That, you know, I decided that there was no way that I could handle all the cases, you know, and my and a few of my colleagues who are who are recognizing this. And so, I decided to start putting a lot of focus and doing things like this, where I can educate the community, and I even have a lot of stuff now, where I'm training other providers, a lot of doing courses for other providers online, and things like that.Hannah Choi 06:16That's great. I would love to talk with you more about that later on. I do have a question for you about the brain. You mentioned the brain, what? What happens in the brain? And I know that there's dopamine involved, but maybe for our listeners, you can explain what happens in the brain when, you know, when someone really feels like they need to be on a screen.Dr. Cliff Sussman 06:43Yeah, yeah, that's, I mean, that that is it is related to dopamine. And so So dopamine is the neurotransmitter that we release, it's thought of as the pleasure neurotransmitter. So people think we just release it when we get pleasure. But it's a little more nuanced than that we release dopamine when we get exactly what we want, when we want. So I think people people think of if you got pleasure, but it was very delayed, you know, you wouldn't release as much dopamine as if you got the same pleasure right away. So that's why things like cigarettes, which don't get you nearly as high as other drugs, but get you that buzz right away, because you smoke it, and the smoke goes right into your bloodstream, they release a lot of dopamine, and our, you know, easily as addictive as much more intoxicating drugs that have more delayed. So, you know, it was a real survival, a real survival neurotransmitter. Because, you know, when you're, let's say, a caveman, you, you need something right away, it helps you survive if you get it right away. Right, right, you know, so you know, you want to satisfy those needs immediately. Before you get eaten by a saber toothed Tiger.Hannah Choi 08:14We don't want that to happen.Dr. Cliff Sussman 08:16So yeah, so what happens in the brain when, when, when we're on anything that gives us instant gratification. And in particular screens, because that gives us not just instant gratification, but continuous instant gratification, is it the brain releases lots of dopamine. And you know, there's nothing wrong with that, what's the problem is when you keep doing it, and when the brain keeps releasing dopamine for hours and hours on end, right, like cavemen never got what they wanted for that long at a time. I mean, so the brain wasn't designed to handle that much of getting what you want for that long time. And so what happens is you become desensitized to dopamine, the receptors in the brain for dopamine, they, they go through a process called downregulation. And that and a bunch of other more complicated processes, basically result in you needing to work even harder to get instant gratification. And, and getting the same amount of dopamine that you did before won't feel as good. So you need even more. And so that's why that's one of the reasons why it's just so hard to get off screen. When you've been on it for a really long time. You know, when when you get off and stop getting that dopamine. Now you you actually feel worse than before you start.Hannah Choi 09:43Right. So you want to get back on to avoid that feeling.Dr. Cliff Sussman 09:49 Yeah, and that's really basically the process in all addictions.Hannah Choi 09:52Yeah, right, right. Yeah.Dr. Cliff Sussman 09:54So it's like it's like too much of a good thing. You know, I don't and I like it. said I enjoy gaming, you know, so I don't I don't think that that using a video game for a half an hour or an hour is such a terrible thing. I think it can be a great experience. And there's lots of even educational opportunities or, you know, opportunities to solve puzzles are make friends or do all sorts of great things, right? Yeah. But it's the hours and hours and hours on end. And when people during the pandemic, we're living in the virtual world instead of the real world, it really got to be a big problem.Hannah Choi 10:31Yeah, right. So I had a personal experience with this. A couple of weeks ago, my son and I both had COVID at the same time, so he and I were all like, we're Yeah, it was, yeah, it was not fun. And, and so we were both isolated, we're both the same room, and I had work I had to do, and he did not feel great. So I let him use his, like, play Minecraft and do screens like, kind of all day. And I, I felt so guilty because I know!Dr. Cliff Sussman 11:03And that was the first time you'd done that? Because most parents I've worked with have found that out, have crossed that a long time ago, you knowHannah Choi 11:11Yeah, I mean, I guess I had done it. But it hadn't been in a while. And it hadn't been for so many days. And I did notice afterwards, he had a hard time, like thinking of something else to do. And, and I didn't feel great. So I had a hard time motivating myself to encourage him to do something different. So I can see how...Dr. Cliff Sussman 11:36Everything else starts to pale in comparison. Yeah, you know, it can turn an, you know, I like to divide activities into what I call high dopamine activities. I use HDA for short and long dopamine activities, or LDA. And I call you know, the, there's a lot of low dopamine activities that are enjoyable, meaning activities that just require more patience that have more delay in their gratification, but they're still gratifying. Right? So you know, so we're not just talking about homework and exercise, we're also talking about things like putting together a jigsaw puzzle, you know, painting a picture, learning to play an instrument. These things, you know, those are the types of things that your son might really enjoy doing, until they've, you know, gotten a taste of a high dopamine activity for a very long time. You know, and then all of a sudden, those other things, just, you know, well, the thing you heard all the time during the pandemic was I'm bored. There's nothing to do.Hannah Choi 12:39Yeah, there's nothing right. Yeah, yeah. It's funny that you say play an instrument. So my son plays piano, and I, I'm thinking about it, like I did notice when we came out of isolation, and we were back in the real world, it was harder for him to like, sit down and play the piano, but I am noticing over the past few days, he's, he's kind of getting back into it now. So that's not permanent.Dr. Cliff Sussman 13:04And you don't want to forget that. I played the piano when I was a kid for a couple years. And I think I said to my mom, you know, look, for my seventh birthday, can I just quit piano because the processing is really boring, and I don't want to have to learn all the skills. And she's like, okay, you know, and, and then a couple years later, I guess when I became a teenager, I was like, I really wish I knew how to play an instrument. Mom, why did you let me I took up guitar instead. Okay, so that's good. But yeah, it's important when kids get bored with their instruments, not to like, Forget everything they know, and just come away from it to try and just pick it up every now and then keep it a little fresh.Hannah Choi 13:48Right, right. So that makes me think of like, how can this might be jumping ahead a little bit, but how can people balance? How can people find a nice balance between those LDAs and HDA active, activities?Dr. Cliff Sussman 14:04Well, you're hitting the nail on the head. I mean, to me, that's the real key is finding a balance, right? Because you're definitely let's face it in this world, you're not going to have abstinence from the digital world. You know, and it's impossible. Yeah. And and, you know, you wouldn't function very well if you did, to be honest. So it really is about finding balance. And so I have a lot of suggestions for how to do that on my website that you were referring to earlier at CliffordSussmanmd.com. But I can try to highlight some of the main ones. So I think the some of the biggest keys are having a lot of structure in your schedule. You know, having and keeping a schedule, you know, keeping a routine that was so important during the pandemic, when you know, prior to the pandemic, a big ratio of my patients were first year college dropouts, because they went from the highly structured setting of high school to the unstructured setting of college. And so that allows for hours and hours of binging. Well, during the pandemic, it basically like every high school kid became a college kid, because they were at home with like, very little structure. And so, you know, so structure is really key to balance. Having something to do at a certain time until a certain time, you know, getting your kids involved in daily repeating activities, like sports, or music, or joining a chorus or something like that Robotics Club. So that's important. I would also say that setting some some time limits, consistent time limits to how long you can be on a screen, but also, how long you need to be off a screen or at least doing a low dopamine activity, if it is on a screen until you can get on again, it's really important for balance. But the number one thing is, as I already alluded to, is not binging you know, so. So if you're, if you're keeping each screen block to a consistent length of time, that's, let's say, an hour or less, depending on the age of the child, and waiting at least that amount of time before you get on again, you know, especially during unstructured time, then then I think you're going to be way ahead of the game for most families. And that's how I'd answer that.Hannah Choi 16:47Yeah, those are really great suggestions. And, and I like that there is so much balance built into all of those suggestions. So it really does show that that is the key. So it's something that we had talked about earlier, and I had never I had never thought about this before. But you, you talked about how people use the word addiction, like screen addiction, casually, like "Oh, I'm so addicted to my screen". But that's not technically true. Right? Can you explain to the listeners, what the difference is between addiction and what you said was functional dependence?Dr. Cliff Sussman 17:25Yeah, well, so. So what addiction really means is that you're you can't get off of something, despite the problems it's causing for you. So it's, it's the inability to control an activity. Combined with it having causing dysfunction in your life. And the level of addiction is measured by not how many hours you're on a screen, or how much of a drug you're taking, but how much it's negatively affecting your life. So, and I do think people think of addiction as kind of an all or nothing thing, but it really is, to me, it's more of a continuum, like you can be really addicted to something. If you're you've like dropped out of school, and you still earn 1000s of dollars, and you know, your life is completely in shambles. Or you can be a little addicted to something if you know, dropped your grades from an A to a B minus, you know, so. But I mean, I think kids generally when they say this game is so addictive, what they mean is that they can't stop playing. And so they're not completely wrong, you know, because it is designed that way to make it so they can't stop playing. As far as like, being dependent on something that just means you know what it sounds like, like you need it, like you can't function without it. And so, you know, you can be the you can be dependent on something without being addicted to it if you still can manage your life and live a good life that's successful, where you're getting what you need out of it. And so, yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, think of a diabetic dependent on insulin, right? I mean, they can't live without it. But that doesn't mean that it's dysfunctional to take right, you know, and so a lot of us really need our screens. We need them like right now we're on screens, you know, that that doesn't make us addicted, right. We're using it in a functional way now. Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's, does that answer your question?Hannah Choi 19:36Yeah. Yeah, it does. And what you just said reminds me of going back to when my son and I were isolating together in during the time of COVID I was on my I felt guilty because I was on my screen. So I felt a little bit like I was being, you know, hypocritical, because I was saying, like, you need to get off and here I am, you know, typing away on my screen. And, but I didn't want to be on, I had to be on there.Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:04You were doing low dopamine screen actors,Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:06Yeah, it was very low-dopamine!Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:08You were setting a good example. But what I do see a lot of parents doing is, you know, they're on a cell phone, let's say, going down all these rabbit holes of social media, you know, saying to their kid to get off a video game that doesn't play very, you know, and there's definitely a lot of parents I work with who are who are sort of like, struggling themselves to get off their screens. And, you know, so and let's face it, like with all drug use, and all substances, with all behavioral addictions, like it runs in families, right, it's, there's a genetic component. So yeah, and by the way, you you mentioned this, this episode of, of you and your son being sick. And, you know, one of the problems with that is that you're trapped in the house, you know, you can't like go outside to do low dopamine activities, where there's probably a lot more dopamine activities, you know, so, but that also is a reason I emphasize, because people had to stay injuring COVID, you know, during for quarantine purposes, as well. So, I emphasized a lot of environmental cues, like being aware of environmental cues as as a big part of achieving balance. So if you're, if an alcoholic is avoids going in the bar, it's much harder, it's much easier to avoid having a drink, right? It's much harder when you're in the bar. Because you have all the cues of the bar, you have the sights, sounds and smells, you know, the, you see a row of bottles, you see the bartender, it's like, it's very hard to drink water in a bar. And so, so what I try to help parents do, and this is kind of a extended answer to your question about how to, you know, how do you get balance, because I try to help them have like low dopamine and high dopamine zones in the house. So you start to associate cues of like what activity you should be doing. So in other words, when we were, you know, before COVID, and since since the quarantines ended, when kids do their learning, they're in a classroom, right. And so they're sitting at a desk, they've got a teacher, they got a whiteboard, they've got hopefully other kids around, like, maybe some of them at least paying attention to the teacher. And, you know, so they've got the cues around them that, hey, it's time to learn, you know, but when they were, when they were taking class during COVID, they were on the same screen, they were playing Minecraft on all day. And usually, they had another screen open with Discord on it. So like, good luck, you know, that that's really trying to drink water in a bar. So that's why I emphasize a lot, like look at what your home looks like, you know, do you have a separate area for where they do their gaming? And for where they do their studying? You know, and they're sleeping, you know, are they just do they have a cell phone and three other devices next to their bed all the time or next to where they're doing their work? Because if so, good luck, you know, they're getting the wrong cues. You know, so I tried to emphasize having a zone in the house put aside kind of like an arcade room, where, when it's time for kids to have their high dopamine activities, they can go into that sort of arcade room. And, you know, all the devices will be in there. But the catch is that when that hour or whatever is up, maybe half an hour, if they're a little kid, the devices stay in there, and they leave. And they go back into the low dopamine zone. Yeah, a little zone, because so, so that way, you know what, what happens is, you don't have to rip a device out of the kid's hand, you just have to get them to go from one location to another.Hannah Choi 24:02Right, right. Yeah. And so then if it like, say, you don't have a separate place, could you just say, like, you always have to sit? Like if you're going to be using your game, your whatever, you have to sit at this table or something?Dr. Cliff Sussman 24:16Yeah. Although although usually if it's a teenager and you say you have to do something, they'll do the opposite. So yeah. You know, kind of work on how you how you discuss it with them, but that could be the rules that you agree on, you know, and, and, you know, and if you make rules like that, you can also clarify what the sort of natural or logical consequence of breaking those rules are, because they're going to, you know, so Right. Yeah. So like if for example, if they stay in the in the high dopamine room for longer than they're supposed to, you could agree on something like okay, you were in there five minutes too long. So you lose three times five, which is 15 minutes off the next lock in there. You And then you don't need a power struggle, you know? Yeah. Right. You can even reward them for getting off on their own in time. Just not with extra screen time. Yeah.Hannah Choi 25:10Yeah, you get half an hour more.Dr. Cliff Sussman 25:14Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I that's a system that's worked for a lot of my parents.Hannah Choi 25:19And do would you say, in general, kids are open to talking with their parents about their screen use and in screen use behavior? And, and kind of discussing what it's like for them?Dr. Cliff Sussman 25:35Well, it depends on the kid, you know, and it depends on their age. And, you know, I mean, for so so that's a complicated question. You know, if you have a kid who's like really addicted to screens and kids, and really struggling with it, they may be in denial, which and so they may be get very defensive when parents tried to talk to them about it. But then at the same time, there's, there's like, it's a normal teenage thing to not want to discuss everything with your parents, and not necessarily want to share all your feelings with them, especially when you're in that early teenage, those early teenage years, like 12-13, because you're trying to like, sort out your, your identity among your peers, and you're trying to sort of push a cast aside the previous generation and join your peers. So, you know, so So I don't think parents should take it too, personally, if their kids don't want to talk about it. But you know, kids do like when their parents care about what they're interested in, you know, and if you, you know, can validate that they really enjoy their games, and that they really enjoy their computer and that they're not, you know, that, that it can be really tough for them to stop. You know, what you don't want to do as a parent and see, like I just, you know, you don't want to say to your kid, like, like that, you know, I don't understand why that's fun for you. That's, you know, that's not important. You shouldn't be doing because to them, it's very important. You know, it's, it's, you know, it's, it may be how they're socializing. It may be how, I mean, they may care a lot about how a lot more about how well they do in a video game than other things. And, you know, you may not agree with that, but you got to meet them where they are good luck reaching them,Hannah Choi 27:24you know, yeah, yeah, you can't reach them unless you validate them.Dr. Cliff Sussman 27:27Yeah. And validating a behavior is not the same as enabling it. You know, I think that's important for parents, just because you're acknowledging that a kid loves their video game, or that they're really upset about having to stop playing it. You know, rather than pretending they're not upset, you know, that that's not the same thing as saying, Oh, you can have all the games you want, you know?Hannah Choi 27:50Yeah, that's such an important point to remember.Dr. Cliff Sussman 27:55You can set limits, but then validate how, you know, the effect it's having on them, trying to abide by those limits.Hannah Choi 28:02Right. And then also, I imagine sharing your own experience with having challenges regulating your own screen use. And, you know, sharing Yeah, like, I get that, because I feel that way about whatever. And so. So for parents, those, those cues for the kids can also be the parents behavior, and just being a good role model. Right?Dr. Cliff Sussman 28:31Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, kids are much more likely to do what we do than what we say. So, you know, I think the most effective way to really influence our kids being self regulated and balanced is to be that way ourselves and to work on that ourselves as parents and actually model that behavior. You know, and maybe even like, let let your child know, look, I you know, I set a timer, and I stopped when the timer went off, and it wasn't easy for me to do I want to keep doing it, but I have to get back to work, you know. So, you know, your, your basic your being a good influence on that type of behavior.Hannah Choi 29:14Yeah. Just thinking about my own house and how, how we do things. Yeah. And it's hard. I mean, it's it's really hard. You're right, they do. They the the makers of all these things, every website, every every social media app, every game, they make it so you want it. You want it bad, it's hard. Yeah, yeah. If you're just reading the news, you just pull down and then you got a whole new news article to read.Dr. Cliff Sussman 29:42Yeah, well, there's endless scrolling. It's all you know, it's all sort of designed and coded the way they know we'll get people to stay on the longest. So you know, and even they even have AI that does that. So, and you know, and they understand like the basic psychological concepts concepts of things like gambling, that, you know, if you, if you give people a different reward every time, and sometimes no reward at all. It's the whatever, whatever it is, they're going to do a lot more of than if you just reward them the same way each time. So that's called variable ratio reinforcement. And that's why, you know, when you're scrolling down, you know, sometimes it's like, for example, you may think, Okay, well, this AI isn't very good, because they keep showing me things in my feed that I'm not interested in at all right. And occasionally, I'll like one, and I'll click on it, you know, or occasionally, I'll find something that's interesting, you know, but I have to keep scrolling and scrolling until I actually find something. Well, guess what, that's what they want. They don't want you to like everything. I mean, for one thing, they can't get any information about you, if you like everything, but for another thing, you know, that it's not as addictive if you like everything. You know, it's actually more addictive, if you're disappointed sometimes. And if there's like, maybe I'll like the next one better, right? That's why you see people in the casinos just pulling those levers over and over again, on the slot machine.Hannah Choi 31:11Yeah, right, that same action. Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:14Like mice. Hannah Choi 31:17We're all just a bunch of mice. Don't those don't the makers of like the people that that apply that psychology? Don't they have some? Gosh, some guilt or something like, oh, they have to be, uhhh, I don't get it.Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:33Ethics and money don't always go together? But, you knowHannah Choi 31:35No, no.Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:36I mean, that's the world we're in. You know, I mean, I have very little control over the tech industry, I have a lot more say, I think and you know, what messages I can send to parents and kids about the way to cope with this type of, you know, just how to play the cards were dealt the best, you know, how to really, you know, maybe that was a bad analogy.Hannah Choi 32:02Bringing us back to gambling!Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:03Yeah, bringing us back to gambling. But yeah, I mean, just how to how to deal with this challenge that we're always faced with, you know, I mean, there's always, there's always struggles and challenges for humans to survive. And this is the one we have right now.Hannah Choi 32:19This is the one we have right now. Yeah, yep. Yeah. No more saber toothed tigers. That's good.Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:26Yeah, that's right. I mean, yeah, I guess we're doing a little better.Hannah Choi 32:32So what do you like, what about, are there any trends or things? You know, speaking of now that it's just it is just part of life? Is there anything that's really important for people to know about? About this? Like, is there any additional message that you would like to share with our listeners?Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:53Well, um, a lot of parents asked me about parental control software. I, again, I think if you have the boundaries, clear on things like, you know, low dopamine and high dopamine areas, you don't need as much of that, you know, I like direct parental engagement, I think that's a good healthy thing. And I think sometimes parents rely too much on computers to do it for them. And so like parental control software, and things like that. So it goes beyond just the fact that kids can hack around it, that I that I, you know, tell parents to not completely rely on parental control software, that it's important to have clear rules laid out and consequences and to be able to interact with your kids concerning those consequences. Without having major power struggles and being able to really, again, try to meet them where they are, but also, you know, set some limits. And, you know, and find a balance as a parent between setting limits, and allowing your kids to self regulate, and, and not to micromanage them too much, and let them learn from their own natural consequences.Hannah Choi 34:14Yeah, and if you don't provide them the opportunities to do that, when they do go off to college, or go move out of the house and move on to their own, then they're not going to have any experience to draw from, or resources to draw from. Exactly. Yeah. And it is difficult because there are so many resources out there and a lot of parents not resources, but a lot of those parental control apps or programs. And also, they may be their friends or using them to feel like oh, like maybe I should use this. You're my kid and it's harder to just like rely on your own your Yeah, relationship with your child.Dr. Cliff Sussman 35:02And, and, and even if other parents are using them. They may be, like, we don't know exactly how they're using them, ya know. So if even if you get the software, you know, it's, and you find that it helps for some things you don't want, it's just that you don't want to depend on it too much, you know, you don't want to over rely on it. Like, for example, I think that like screen time, the screen time app on iPhones, for example, is a good way to just track what your kids are doing online. Like it tells you what apps they're on, but it also tells you how much time they were on their phone. Yeah. You know, to some extent, and, you know, sometimes it can, it can misread things, but but the point is that it's a good way to just have feedback on what your kids are doing. But it's not doing the policing for you. It's not, like cutting them off, it's just giving you the information, it's just giving you the information. So it helps you monitor as the parent. And that's pretty useful. You know, if you don't want to be looking over their shoulder all the time, but at the same time, I think sometimes it's good to like actually go in the room where they're studying.Hannah Choi 35:14Yeah, whatcha doing? Yeah.Dr. Cliff Sussman 36:15I mean, if every time you go in while they're doing homework, they're like minimizing, you know, an app like, you know, something's you know, the homeworks not getting done.Hannah Choi 36:25Yeah, yeah. It's also beneficial for the kid to learn how many hours they're spending on it. I think that we don't realize how quickly time flies while we're on that. I had, I had a client who I had, he had never looked at his he was in college, and he had never looked at his screen time use. And so I just encouraged him to, and oh, my god, I just, my heart broke for him, I'll never in my life forget the way that his face, his jaw just dropped. He had no idea he wouldn't tell me the time.Dr. Cliff Sussman 36:58Yeah, it's called time distortion, you know, track of real world time. And it certainly happens to me when I play video games, which is why I set a timer. You know, it's like surprised by how soon it goes off.Hannah Choi 37:11I am not really I'm not into video games, and I'm not, I'm very much a like practical person when it comes to my phone. Like I'm on it a lot, but it's just because I'm like texting or researching something. But recently, I did look at my time totals, and I realized my Instagram was kind of out of control. Yeah, so I put a time limit on there. And it really has helped. Yeah. But but that's just me. And that's, you know, that's how I am. And I know, like for my son, it's a lot harder. He's and my husband to it's they're just different. They're very different for me with how they use their phones.Dr. Cliff Sussman 37:49Yeah, and social media is a big time suck. But, you know, look, I think that there's two skills that we need to have to be able to have use our devices in a healthy way. Like, we need to be able to delay our gratification, which means we can't be like checking our Instagrams every five minutes, you know, and, and then we need to be able to put on the brakes, like we need to be able to stop when it's time to stop, you know, when the timer does go off, we have to stop and move on. And transition. And those are two skills that we wouldn't really develop at all if we were just abstinent. You know, so it's like, it's actually. So I see screentime as an opportunity to work on those skills, you know, and, and so I'll present it to kids is kind of a challenge for them. You know, you, you know, if, if they were seeing me for cocaine, they I wouldn't be saying to them, Well, you know, you could try to wait before you use your cocaine and stop using in the middle. But you can you actually have that opportunity with screens? Yeah, you know, to work on those skills. And their skills, not just for screening is there. Yeah,Hannah Choi 39:01that's what I was. Right? I was just gonna say that. Yeah. Yep. So how can we, as you know, like me as an executive function coach and protect other practitioners who might not know about handling, screen, excessive screen use or screen addiction? How can we support our clients that might be struggling that with that,Dr. Cliff Sussman 39:28Right, so there is more education out there now on the nature of this problem, and also suggestions for how to how to manage it. So you could, I have a course for example, on the Ross Center website, it's and it provides CE credits for some practitioners. But for others, it's if you're not getting the credits, and you're just taking the course it's less expensive, so and it's a very inexpensive course to begin with so, so you can get the link for that at my website or just go to the Ross Center's website. Yeah, I mean, also, I think that there's, there's a, there's a lot of good resources, I was the technical editor for Overcoming Internet Addiction for Dummies. And I think that book came out nice. That was my colleague, David Greenfield. So, there's a lot of good stuff in there. You know, I think I think clinicians have to just be aware of it and start recognizing it, and they should also know, sort of the red flags to look for. And if they're, if they don't specialize in it, when they see those red flags, they should be able to, you know, maybe refer to somebody who's an expert in that. So just, you know, know, the signs of addiction. And, you know, I'll, of course look for things like kids. You know, mental health professionals know, for example, the screen for suicide, but that you should screen for, you know, is a kid threatening to kill themselves, particularly when the parents are taking the screen away. You know, I like they're there. So there's red flags that are more directly related to screen problems, you know?Hannah Choi 41:21And then I guess a related question would be, how can at what point should parents seek help outside of the, you know, tips and ideas that we've already talked about today?Dr. Cliff Sussman 41:34Well, parents should be aware of some red flags to just like clinicians should and then that, and that's definitely when to go for help. So things like, you know, excessive lying about screen use, stealing money to use screens, and the kids I work with aren't just, like, using their hacking skills to steal their parents credit card information on the computer, they're literally going into the wallets and removing the credit cards, like, That's how desperate they are to get on as fast as possible. There. Yeah. So also things like aggression, when you try to separate the kid from their screen. You know, just a lot of irritability, when they're not on their screen. You know, a lot of a lot of parents, if they can't get help immediately, and they really suspect there's a big problem, they may want to try just having like a, say, a three to seven day screen detox, you know, like, try going on a camping trip, or going on vacation somewhere and just getting your kids disconnected from the internetHannah Choi 42:47With a natural limitation on theDr. Cliff Sussman 42:49Yeah, with a lot of structure in the environment. And, you know, you will see, a lot of parents will see huge changes just from really after, I'd say the second day, they can start seeing kids, like their personalities completely changed. And a lot of those red flags like, seemingly gone, which doesn't mean that your problem is gone, it probably just proves you have the problem that you know, me because as soon as they get their screens back, you know, those those problems will come back. So that's when you have to learn the balance. But starting out with a detox is often a good approach.Hannah Choi 43:29Yeah. And I like how you suggested like, on like going camping or something where so it's not, it's not you as the parent saying, we can't. It's the nature nature is saying you can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. Is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners that is?Dr. Cliff Sussman 43:51Well, just emphasize that that, like what you said at the beginning, that there's a lot of more information they can get on my website. So CliffordSussmanmd.com.Hannah Choi 44:06Yeah, you have to check out i'll put the link in the show notes. Cliff's website is just packed full of really, really, like useful actionable tips and ideas. And, and I have to say, looking through it made me feel better about my concerns about my own kids screen use and how that there are a lot of like, really good things that we can do. And there's a lot of support and information out there. Dr. Cliff Sussman 44:39Yeah, we need more though. We're going to and we're going to work on that we're going to work on getting a lot more support for parents struggling with this and, you know, cuz cuz more and more of us are becoming aware of how huge a crisis this is, and we're not ignoring the elephant in the room, you know.Hannah Choi 44:56Right. Yeah, it is time to tackle that elephant and to take control. Great. Well, thank you so much for joining me. It was really interesting. And, and there is some hope in there as you know, as, as we were saying we are really surrounded by it. And it is really difficult to, yeah, like you said, you can't practice abstinence. It's just not possible. But there are a lot of really great strategies that and also opportunities to learn and opportunities to connect with your kids, which are never not a good use of your time. Yeah, that's right. Great. All right. Well, thanks again for joining me. And, yes, listeners, please check out the show notes because you'll, you'll just be really glad to see all this information there. All right. Okay. Thanks. Dr. Cliff Sussman 45:48Thank you. Bye, bye.Hannah Choi 45:50And that's our show for today. You can now get back to what you were doing before I so rudely called you out on it. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. You can do whatever you want. And I sure won't judge you for it because I am over here trying to find my own screen use balance. But if you've got the time, be sure to check out those show notes for links to learn more about Dr. Sussman and the excellent work he's doing. If you're a provider of support for people who may be dealing with screen addiction, I recommend taking a look at his training materials. There are some excellent resources in there. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. Help us help others learn about executive function skills. Please share our podcast with your colleagues, your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening.

On this episode, I’m taking a look at how grief and emotional trauma impact our Executive Functioning. Grief and emotional trauma are really hard to talk about. Even though grief and emotional trauma are part of being human, they're both really hard to talk about as we all have experienced or will experience some form of each within our lives. However, not only is everyone’s reaction to grief different, but everyone’s reaction to other people’s grief is different, too. I thought that maybe by learning more about it, we can find it a little easier to talk about. Most of all, hopefully finding some answers to why we react the ways we do when we experience loss can help us discover strategies that work to orient ourselves to this new normal. After all, things won’t be the same after loss, so how can we navigate that? I reached out to Dr. Lisa Shulman who is a neurologist and a professor of Neurology at University of Maryland in Baltimore. Lisa is also a published author and wrote a book called Before and After Loss: A Neurologist's Perspective on Loss, Grief, and Our Brain. Her focus on the brain’s reaction to grief and, as you’ll hear her explain, emotional trauma, was exactly what I needed to answer the many questions I had. Lisa’s personal experience with grief and her professional experience led her to research the topic. Her extensive knowledge of the brain helped me understand it all so much more and her calming presence somehow made it easier to talk about. I hope you enjoy and learn from this conversation as much as I did and that this episode helps you in your life before or after you experience loss. Show NotesLearn more about Dr. Lisa ShulmanRead Lisa’s book Before and After Loss: A Neurologist's Perspective on Loss, Grief, and our BrainLearn More about Jody LaVoieWatch Hannah’s conversation with Jody on our YouTube ChannelResources on Grief, Loss, and EmotionsGrief Board of Directors Template by Jody LaVoieHow to Feel Your Feelings by @emilyonlife (on Instagram)Transcript from Hannah's Conversation with Jody LaVoie (continue scrolling to find the transcript of Hannah's conversation with Dr. Lisa Shulman)Hannah Choi 00:00So hi, Jody, thank you so much for joining me on my podcast today.Jody LaVoie 00:27Hi Hannah, thanks for having me. I love talking about this with you.Hannah Choi 00:31Great. So I spoke with Dr. Lisa Shulman earlier in the at the end of last year, and she and I had a great conversation about grief and emotional trauma and how that impacts executive functioning. And I wanted to talk with you because I know that you work with widows who are getting back to...Or maybe you can explain it to me, why don't you explain to me who you work with and how you support them?Jody LaVoie 01:04Yes, no, absolutely. So I am a grief and loss expert. I'm also a widow, myself. I'm a mom, and I've run a business. And I help widows learn to fall in love with their life again. And you brought up an excellent point, Hannah about when when would somebody kind of start being able to feel like they're ready to figure out how to fall in their love with their life again, and it's generally when kind of that overwhelm of grief happens, and you're just trying to check off tasks. And you wake up one day, and you're like, you know, there's got to be more I'm doing it. I'm doing the day to day stuff I'm functioning, but I'm just functioning, how can I find more?Hannah Choi 01:54So at what point would someone reach out for someone, for some support with someone like you?Jody LaVoie 02:28You know, Hannah, it's different for everyone. And I'll give a couple of examples. So when someone receives a terminal diagnosis for their spouse, they start grieving right away, even though they're hopeful. And they're working hard with experimental treatments to, you know, try to not have this person pass away, their grief starts then. So they could come work with me, you know, right. When their spouse dies, I worked with a client even before her spouse had passed away, because she had started grieving a year and a half prior. So for other widows that lose their spouse, suddenly, that's they're in shock. And it takes a little bit of time for them to get to that place of okay, I'm functioning. But I know there's gotta be more.Hannah Choi 03:22Yeah. And after talking with, with Lisa Schulman and learning about how, how loss and emotional trauma impacts our executive functioning, it, it completely makes sense that someone would have might have to wait and not be able to just start to tackle life again, when it has been what has been traumatic and sudden, imagine it. Yes. Do you have to wait? So what are some, what do you recommend to your to the people that you work with? What are some strategies that people can try?Jody LaVoie 04:00You know, and I know we're keeping to executive functioning strategies, which is so important, because obviously, we all need to be able to function our day to day lives and thrive in our day to day lives. And how can we do that better? So the really, the first and foremost thing that we work on is our thoughts, and working on where those thoughts come from. And that doesn't mean that we're ignoring grief. We're pushing the pain away. We're not feeling it just means our thoughts trigger our behaviors, which trigger emotions and it's this endless cycle. And so if you can, there's a couple strategies with your thoughts. One, one, that thought happens if you can pause, just take a breath and actually try to think about, okay, what is this thought really, and where is it coming from and what, what is my action that I'm taking guessing, based on this thought, and what should I be doing differently? So that's one way to do it. And the second thing, there's a series of four questions that I love, there is a coach, an author named Byron Katie, and she helps people really with self-inquiry. And she believes that if you ask yourself these four questions, it, it really promotes thinking and changing. And the first one is ask yourself, if that thought is really true. Is it really true? Second, Can you absolutely know, it's true? Is the second question. Third question. How do you react? And what happens when you believe that thought? And fourth question is, who would you be with out that thought, and that's really releasing and breathing. And, and you as, as the widow and as any person, or now take, taking control of your thought process. And that takes a while. And it takes practice. But just that act of recognizing, so important?Hannah Choi 06:12Yeah, I love that. I remember, one strategy that I learned for grief, that that that I that really helped me was to recognize that you're feeling it and then label the feelings that you're having or label what is happening. Instead of instead of just feeling it also just sort of identify what you're going through, and then and let it happen. And then acknowledge that it happened and sounds like a similar process.Jody LaVoie 06:47Very, very much so and it is so important to label your feelings, feel your feelings. But it's also important to put some parameters around that too, if you are able, I mean, not everybody is able. Everybody is in a different stage. But if you are in the process of okay, feeling sad, it is okay to acknowledge that I'm feeling sad, and I'm missing my person. But I'm going to sit in it for five minutes, 10 minutes, and then I'm going to get off the couch or out of my bed and go do something to move to a different place. So that's, that's, that's helpful as well.Hannah Choi 07:28Yeah. And setting parameters. And that, that requires a lot of a lot of perseverance and, and discipline, but but also, then, I imagine opens up a lot of opportunities for you once you're able to set those parameters.Jody LaVoie 07:45Absolutely. Yeah.Hannah Choi 07:47What's something else that you recommend for your?Jody LaVoie 07:51Well as a widow, and I know with Dr. Shulman, you talked a lot about that early stage grief, it's hard to just get stuff done. And all of a sudden, you've have an overwhelming amount of tasks that were just dumped on your plate, not only going through, you know all the paperwork and all of the different things that one must do after you lose a spouse, but that spouse helped around the house help do the errands, help take care of the kids, you now are doing that all on your own. So pick one thing and create a SMART goal around it. Because it's one thing to say, Okay, I am going to get to the gym five days this week. Great. Did you put it on the calendar? Do you know exactly what you're going to do with your what is your outcome you want to have until you actually take action? And put it on your calendar? Like we're not going to happen?Hannah Choi 08:48Yeah, yeah, we love those smart goals at Beyond BookSmart. And we use, we use them a lot. And I know that they really help make those goals more meaningful. So it makes sense that that that would be a really useful, useful strategy to use. Yeah. That's great. Glad to hear you use those as well.Jody LaVoie 09:07Absolutely.Hannah Choi 09:08Yeah. Do you have any other tips?Jody LaVoie 09:12You know, I do. And I love this one. And this helped me a lot. It's creating, I call it your Widow Board of Directors. And I was running a business. So therefore this board of directors concept really, really resonates with me, but these are your people that have your back. These are your people that are going to help you. This is your best friend who's going to run cover for you. If you're if you're like going out today's not a great day. And I need help getting my kids to soccer. You can reach out to this one person and have them get it done. You can have another person that's helping you with your business decisions or your career decisions or just work decisions in general because I As a grieving person, we're not firing on all cylinders, we've got a lot in our brain, and that can cause distractions. But yet, we still want to exceed at our jobs, we still want to get those things done, but have your person that you can call on to help with with that. So designate people to be active in various aspects of your life and, and tell them, here's what I need from you, I need you to check in on me weekly, or I NEED you, but be specific about their role, and the action they need to take.Hannah Choi 10:36And I imagine that can be a difficult thing for people to do. I know, I know, a lot of the clients that I work with, and just people that I've talked to in my life have do have a hard time asking for help. And that's a time when you really need to be able to do that. Do you have any ideas for people who struggle asking for help?Jody LaVoie 10:54You know, I think it's about giving yourself permission. So many of us are perfectionist out there. And you know, prior to losing our spouses, we can keep it all together, and then it all falls apart. And then one can feel embarrassed, shame. Why can't I do all of this? No, no, no, no, no, I'm giving you permission to not be perfect. And to ask for help you need it. And people want to genuinely help you and do things for you.Hannah Choi 11:29Yeah, I love that. And but without asking, they might be afraid. They might not know how to help. So if you're able to ask, then you're gonna, then they're gonna be so happy to help.Jody LaVoie 11:39It's so true. And I coach people that are trying to support grieving people. Just that, be specific, in your ask, because it's a people come to Grievers and say, How can I help and, you know, I, the needs are vast. But to be very specific of, I'd like to bring you dinner this week is Wednesday, or Thursday better. But just be specific, it's helpful.Hannah Choi 12:06 And I love that. That's great. What else you got?Jody LaVoie 12:11You know, it's very easy to forget about yourself, especially as women, we take care of everyone else first. And when we're grieving, our kids are grieving. The other people, relatives, family members are grieving. It's okay to take care of yourself. And you need to because you can't support other people, if you're not putting your oxygen mask on first. And so step one with that is just move your body, whatever that looks like for you. If you can get outside and take a walk, great. Even if you live someplace cold bundle up, just seeing sunlight and breathing in fresh air. So important starts about five minutes, just walk around the block.Hannah Choi 13:03I love that. That's great.Jody LaVoie 13:07Yeah, and one more thing that I do, Hannah. And I know Dr. Shulman talked about this a lot about journaling. And the importance of journaling, which I do what I've also tied into my journaling, gratitude. And so every day, when I get up, my very first thing after I brush my teeth is I, I journal for the day. And I probably spend 5 - 10 minutes, really just writing my thoughts. But at the end of that day's entry, I do two things. One, I write something that I'm really proud of that I did the day before, because celebrating your wins, even the small wins, yeah, are so important. It's so easy. And our brains automatically go to the negative. And there's data that that shows this, Hannah, we have about 60,000 thoughts a day. 80% of them are negative eight, zero. That's crazy. So celebrating a win is important. And then the other thing I put on my journal are three things that I'm grateful for, and getting yourself back to gratitude. Especially when you're you're sad, and you're grieving and you're, you have all of this emotion, but to focus on what is good. And it really helps your brain move to a different space.Hannah Choi 14:35I do the same thing, although I don't do what I'm proud of. And I love that I think we're gonna add that into my journaling. But I do gratitude and I actually just finished up I do it in a line a day journal, one of those like small just has a small entry for every day. And I just finished my fifth year of doing it. Thanks. And I was looking back over I was just reading out loud, my sister and brother in law were over recently and I was reading through it just to see what, you know, what I've been thankful for over the years. And during the pandemic, I noticed that I was many, many days, I was just thankful for sunshine. And, and, and I just looking back on that, I think wow, like, even in those dark days of so challenging for everybody, I was still forced myself to find something that I was thankful for. And some days it was just sunshine. But it's, it's it is possible to find something to be grateful for every day. So true.Jody LaVoie 15:35And I live in gloomy Chicago, and it's winter and the sun is out today. And yeah, just like brought a smile to my face. And that is certainly picked up my spirits. Hannah Choi 15:48Yeah, good. Great. Do you have anything else you'd like to add before we finish?Jody LaVoie 15:52You know, those are going to be my top five. I don't want to give people too many to, you know, chunk off. So if you can tackle those five listeners out there, you will be well on your way to success. Hannah Choi 16:05Yeah, that's great. And where can people find you if they're interested in learning more?Jody LaVoie 16:10Yeah, so I am very active on LinkedIn, under my business Widows in the Workplace. I have an Instagram Widows in the Workplace. And I certainly have a website widows in the workplace.com. Hannah Choi 16:26That's great. I love it. All right. Well, thank you so much, Jodi, it's been really interesting talking with you and I really appreciate everything you shared.Jody LaVoie 16:35Thanks, Hannah. I've I've enjoyed our time together as well.Transcript of Hannah's conversation with Dr. Lisa ShulmanHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:19Today I'm taking a look at how grief and emotional trauma impact our executive functioning. I really struggled to write the intro for this episode, I kept finding myself putting it off. And if you've listened to my procrastination episode, you'll know that the same thing happened with that one. So I did some reflection to figure out why. And I realized it's because of the same reason. I'm afraid I won't get it right. Grief and emotional trauma are really hard to talk about. And even though they're part of being human, we have all experienced or will experience some form of it in our lives. And everyone experiences it differently. Everyone's reaction to grief is different. Everyone's reaction to other people's grief is different. It's a big part of these beautiful and difficult lives we're living, and yet it is still so hard to talk about. I thought that maybe by learning more about it, we can find it a little easier to talk about, and maybe finding answers to why we react the ways we do when we experience loss can help us discover strategies that work to orient ourselves to this new normal. Things won't be the same after loss. So how can we navigate that? Hannah Choi 01:37I reached out to Dr. Lisa Schulman who is a neurologist and a Professor of Neurology at University of Maryland in Baltimore. Lisa is also a published author and wrote a book called before and after loss, a neurologist perspective on loss, grief and our brain. Her focus on the brain's reaction to grief, and as you'll hear her explain, emotional trauma was exactly what I needed to answer the many questions I had. Lisa's personal experience with grief and her professional experience led her to research the topic, her extensive knowledge of the brain helped me understand it all so much more. And her calming presence somehow made it easier to talk about. I hope you enjoy and learn from this conversation as much as I did, and that this episode helps you in your life before or after you experience loss. When you're done listening, please check out the show notes for more resources, including a link to Dr. Shulman's book, which I highly recommend reading and a conversation I had with Jody LaVoie, a grief coach who supports widows who are returning to work after loss. Okay, let's dive in and learn about grief, emotional trauma and the brain. Hannah Choi 02:56Hi, Lisa, thank you for joining me, could you introduce yourself to our listeners for anyone who doesn't know who you are?Dr. Lisa Shulman 03:02Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here, Hannah, thank you for inviting me. I'm a neurologist and author. I'm a Professor of Neurology at the University of Maryland School of Medicine. And I got involved in the area of emotional trauma, traumatic loss and grief through my own personal experiences. And it really has ended up being something very important to me, close to my heart. And I really looking forward to discussing it with you today.Hannah Choi 03:42Are you comfortable sharing your personal experience and telling your story about how you got to where you are today?Dr. Lisa Shulman 03:50Yeah, certainly. You know, I, I mean, I really, I think the place to start is that, you know, I I'm a sub specialist in neurology, I'm what's known as a movement disorder specialist. And most of the patients that I see have Parkinson's disease or Parkinson's related disorders, various forms of what we call neuro degenerative disorders. And I've been doing this for about 30 years now. And so, you know, I have followed many, many, many people through serious illness, you know, to points where they are quite disabled and of life. And, you know, and for those reasons, you know, I thought to myself when I confronted serious illness in my life when my husband was diagnosed with cancer, I thought that I was more prepared than the average person as somebody who counseled others going through hard times. I should vivid, my husband Bill is a neurologist too, and we work closely together. And I think that in over the experience of his illness and his decline and ultimately, his death, you know, I was taken aback or unprepared for the fact that I, you know, like so many things in life that you don't know really know what it is until you're in somebody's shoes. And, and the fact of the matter was that when he was seemingly suddenly gone, I was ill prepared, and was had a really tough time of it. As for a while I floundered, you know, because I hadn't expected to feel the way I felt all of the new precautions. And at some point, many months, many months later, well, actually, I started spontaneously to write a journal and just to get my feelings on a paper piece of paper, although I'd never done anything like that before. And then many months later, I made the connection, which wasn't as obvious as it seems to me now, between my own experience, and a personal experience I was having of loss, and my professional world, of understanding how the brain works, and the brain responds. Which really, you know, it's like one of these things where you think afterwards, you know, I, you know, because I, in my, I'm a researcher, I not only see patients, but I do research, and I write, manuscripts, and a lot of the papers I've published are about the behavioral responses, adjustment, quality of life, managing difficulty in one's life. And yeah, it took me months to, you know, Link, obvious similarities between what I was going through in my professional life. And that ultimately led me to quite a bit of research into brain function, about how the brain responds to emotional trauma and loss. And ultimately, I began to find that is a path forward for me. And then I wrote the book based on that information.Hannah Choi 07:46Yeah, I really, I really, really, really enjoyed your book, I, I be what you said just a little bit ago about you feeling like you were prepared. My personal interest in learning about grief and, and emotional trauma, and the impact on the brain comes from experience that I had in my family, and with some friends, I had a period of five years in a row, where we had some pretty traumatic and unexpected losses. And, and I now looking back on it, I feel like when that happens, again, because it is a part of life, I want to be more prepared. And that is my that's, that's kind of like the motivator for me. And but it's interesting what you said, like you don't, when it's yourself, and it's you feeling it, it's, I imagine it is harder to make that connection and realize, like, oh, wait a second.Dr. Lisa Shulman 08:50Like one of the one of the things that I often start off with when I'm giving a talk on this topic, is how Psychiatry and Neurology are the same thing. And even though as a neurologist, I will understand the brain function that governs our behavior, our mental health, our personality. But when even even though I understand that, I can't wrap my arms around it to be honest, it's like something I have to sort of intellectualize because you the texture of our lives, our experiences are so rich, and so compelling, that to think that this is related to neurotransmitters and neurons, nerve cells, you know, it boggles the mind. Yeah, even for a neurologist who studies it.Hannah Choi 09:55Yeah, and I am, I am far from that and but the little that I do know about the brain, it both helps to understand, okay, this is my brain, but then the same time, like what? It doesn't feel like it's just my brain? Yeah. So when we first when we first communicated, we and you mentioned it a little bit, just just a bit ago, I had asked to talk with you about grief and the connection between the brain and executive function skills. And you suggested that we also include emotional trauma. And I was just wondering if you could explain that in diseases? Are they different from each other? Are they the same? Does the brain react differently?Dr. Lisa Shulman 10:45Yeah, you know, I'm gonna challenge you even in the way you asked that question us, from the conventional physician, that grief has this special position and emotional trauma is different, and that I'm trying to push them together. But I would push back and say that, that is a notion about grief, having a unique position in the spectrum of emotional trauma, but that the more you understand about the way the brain behaves, what parts of the brain respond to serious traumatic loss of all types. The more you see that grief is just in the spectrum of emotional trauma, right. And that, you know, we have one of the most intriguing parts and these things will be eternally intriguing to me, is that how different we all are, in terms of the impact of different events in our lives, and you cannot pinpoint or a map, you can't predict what for one person will be emotionally traumatic, and what will not. We certainly all know people who have had significant, say, losses of loved ones in their life, but they don't go through a terrible period, not everybody does. And by the same token, we see people who suffer other losses in their life, it may be a loss of a job, it could be a breakup with some relationship, it could be the loss of a pet, it could be a, you know, a physical assault, you could go on and on. Certainly COVID, the pandemic has been a source of trauma, emotional trauma and loss in our lives. So you can't pinpoint it. And so I would just say that for every individual, imagine a spectrum or range where you have a unique range of for you what is most would be the greatest and most of your causes of emotional trauma. And that is, I think, the, for me, it's the most appropriate and accurate way to think about it. You know, I think the most important thing is to think of this is a very important point I'd like to leave with your listeners, which is that the brain is agnostic to the type of trauma, the isn't there isn't any unique area of the brain to respond to one of those forms of emotional trauma that I mentioned or another. You know, it might be that you're planning on going to graduate school, and you really, like totally crash when you're taking a test, you need it to ace and that for you is you walk out in a state of utter shock, how it's going to affect your life that you know for you is triggering the same responses as the person in fact, who might find themselves sadly, losing a loved one, it's just a matter of severity for each individual. So it's not the cause it's not the triggering event or the type of event. It's the individual personal meaning of the event that ends up triggering the same cascade of responses.Hannah Choi 14:39And, and that the actual response within the brain. It's like not necess not necessarily there, like how it looks, how it looks externally but what's going on inside of their brain. Is that right? Dr. Lisa Shulman 14:52Right. Right. Exactly. So you know all the consequences, the symptoms, the consequences, this equality It all would be the same based on the severity of the loss.Hannah Choi 15:05Yeah, you know, I was I lost my dog about four years ago. And, and that hit me harder way harder than I ever thought it would. And I found myself sometimes thinking, Oh, this is horrible, just like judging myself, like, you shouldn't, you know, she was just a dog. You know, it's but, but what you're seeing now is making me feel a lot better. I mean, and I caught myself when I said that I, you know, I said, No, she wasn't the, because if experience for me if that loss was so great, so it must have been more than she was just a dog. So it's good to hear that, that, that,Dr. Lisa Shulman 15:47You know, I would I thought a lot and done, you know, reading about why certain things are so personally, individually emotionally traumatic, and that one cannot predict that necessarily, you know, I, I believe that there is it relates to the topic of identity and the story that we have constructed for ourselves about our lives about where we fit in the world. What makes sense to us, the infrastructure of how we get up every day interact with people do our jobs are potentially a partner or parent, all the roles we take, we have a conception, the conceptual framework, and that is related to our identity. And when some piece of that is lost, or injured or at risk, that is jumping to the idea of brain function here perceived by the brain, as an actual assault on or threat to our survival. And this is another very key concept here. And it's a matter of it may sound jarring, and I think the first time I saw that, in the literature, I I thought, wow, you know, could that possibly be? But you have to think of this from an evolutionary standpoint. And from an evolutionary standpoint, I mean, this is how our brain ended up being wired, based on evolution. And our and our brains are all incredibly similar to each other, actually, we think of ourselves as individuals, but who we have the same hardwiring. So the fact is that over evolution, we all know that we were being changed by what would allow enable us to survive. And those who were poorly prepared and unable to move to vulnerable would not have survived with evolutionarily. So we the most hardwired, the most high priority, from the perspective of your brain, not your mind your brand, yes, is keeping us alive, keeping us functional, right. And that is what ends up ruling the day in terms of this of the brain to be triggered by some loss. If it's perceived as something that could be a threat to our function to our survival, then, you know, potentially even all hell could break loose as the brain kicks in with all sorts of reflexes to help us go through bad times.Hannah Choi 19:17Yeah, that's so interesting. So, I was just thinking, Oh, maybe I come from a long line of the first people who domesticated dogs. That's why I felt it so strongly. So how, how, how does the brain react to emotional trauma. What's going on in there? And, and then I don't know if you can bring anything in about executive function since that's my particular interest. But I mean, executive functioning affects all areas of our lives. So it's kind of in just naturally part of that I'm, I'm sure.19:59Yeah, well, I can certainly bring that in. So I think that when we think about how the brain reacts to emotional trauma, it's helpful to organize it from the standpoint of acute responses and chronic responses. And how acute our responses are the immediate short term responses to things in our lives in our environment to triggers. And the there are chronic effects of these acute accumulation of acute responses over and over. You know, from the standpoint of the acute responses, it's easy, because everybody understands, I think, the basic concept of fight or flight. And, you know, if we are in the crosshairs of a bear, a gun, a car, you know, the same response again, you know, there isn't a different response for a bear or the car, it is the same response, which is a survival response of fight or flight. And it is a massive brain and systemic response. That immediately jolts our mind to be vigilant and alert, as alert as we possibly can be blocks out anything extraneous, gets our heart, our lungs, our muscles, prepared to run, to fight to breathe hard, and so forth, we are totally focused on you know, somehow surviving. So that is the acute response. And the fact is that after, we want to talk about grief itself, after the loss of a loved one, our world is filled with daily triggers, that each time we are exposed to these things, sometimes it's somewhat anticipated, but sometimes it is absolutely not. We find ourselves going through that over and over and over. Now, the chronic effects of it are very interesting because it's related to something called neuroplasticity, which is not as complicated as it may sound. Because neuroplasticity is simply that the brain is continually rewiring itself, based on our experiences. You know, right at this moment, we've met each other, we're chatting together, we're going to remember this, and our brain is establishing new, great connections for us to go back to in the future. And that's neuroplasticity. So, but the neuroplastic changes that occur, based on what I just talked about the continual or petitive triggering of the alarm of trouble for the fight or flight mechanism results in the part of the brain that colloquially is called the fear center, but from a neurologic standpoint is called the amygdala, which is part of the limbic system. So the fear center is constantly being strengthened while the cortical functions which are like all of our thinking, our memory, our executive functions, our judgment, all that is being weakened. And it's very important because actually, there are scientific many, many studies, this is not speculation, it shows that the brain pathways that connect the fear center to the our intellect, are being weakened. Because the fear center is being strengthened, the effects of the judgment are being weakened, we can also see that the volume of the different parts of the brain are being altered, in that the fear center is being gets larger, literally. While the the parts of the brain we need to calm ourselves that down and why some compose ourselves are being getting smaller. And this also affects on the brain activity between the two, which is very unhealthy. Everything we do in life is some interaction between the emotional side of the brain which is very primitive, right, you know, and the cerebral cortex, which is our advanced friend, so you know, like, I don't know about you, but I'm not too crazy about roaches or spiders. You know, I like I can if I see a bad spider or roach, I could get triggered. I don't want you eat us Oh, but you know, but then like, you know, your seat of wisdom, like kicks in and goes, you know, I'm living alone now. And I don't have anybody to go. And then I just say, you know, I calm down if you're just gonna have to deal with this, because not gonna get into bed with a spider in my room, you know? So, you know, you can see that interplay between the fear center and the intellect. Yeah, it has to be a healthy balance, right. And unfortunately, based on the set of circumstances, I've described, it imbalance occurs, and you end up being, you know, like, this raw, primitive brain that's autonomously setting off the alarm. And then you know, and then what do we see amongst the people who are going through emotional trauma and or having difficulties? You know, we hear them describe feelings of anxiety, difficulty with their sleep. Flashbacks. And from your perspective, the issues of executive function are being weakened, because they're the the fear center, the primitive responses of fear are predominating.Hannah Choi 26:35Yeah, and I was I was, I remembered, in part of your book, you said that one of the strongest predictors for I'm not sure how to describe it, but for feeling, for lack of better words, feeling like, Okay, after emotional trauma is the idea of self-efficacy. And, and I imagine that feeling that cognitive self efficacy comes a lot from being able to access your executive function, and being able to use that that part of your brain.27:15Yeah, I think I'm really glad you brought that up. Because a lot of my love of my research and work has focused on self-efficacy for managing chronic illness. And, you know, in my own crazy journey, figuring out things at some point, it was another kind of like epiphany, where I went, Oh, wow, that's another? Why didn't I ever think about that, you know, this, that grief, or emotional trauma can be seen as a chronic condition? Yeah, a chronic condition, just like the chronic medical conditions I had, you know, been studying for a long time. And so from that standpoint, you're right, what we're seeking is to develop self efficacy to manage this condition, emotional trauma, traumatic loss or grief. And self-efficacy, that phrase may not be common, commonly known to some people, it simply means that you have a level of confidence, or belief in yourself that you can manage your situation. And importantly, I think of it as that you are developing a sense of control over your life. We all you know, we all seek in our daily life, a sense of control, when you don't when you're not feeling a sense of control. It's very distressing. Yeah, very.Hannah Choi 28:48So, so many of the clients and pretty much all of the clients I've ever worked with, and all of my colleagues to it comes up that that after after figuring out what strategies and tools work best for them to support the areas of executive function that challenge them, once they figure that out, and they're able to have some control over that area. They all say they feel more confident. And and that is that self efficacy right there.Dr. Lisa Shulman 29:15Right, you know, the, the kind of the pathway is that one needs to develop basic font of knowledge about your situation, and then develop skills of self management, which it sounds like you're counseling people about, and then by practicing those new skills, that every time you do it, that you start to have increasing confidence and increasing sense of control. So you sort of build on it until you reverse the cycle of feeling helpless.Hannah Choi 29:58So if you have an end unbalance in the fear center like the limbic system is kind of taking over and inhibiting the part of the brain that we're using for executive functions. What are some things that people can do to write that balance? And, and I'm sure, like right after this, that whatever traumatic incident happens, it's really difficult to get out of that. What are some things that people can can try?30:24You know, I think that that was one of the most encouraging parts of what I learned over time, because I realized that it certainly is calming and reassuring to understand the way in which the brain is responding and how it explains your experience that in and of itself is comforting to know that, you know, you're not as many people say, going crazy, that you're not having this, you know, breakdown, so to speak, but that this is a common, we're all in it together. We're all going through it together. And I think that's very reassuring. But the epiphany was when I realized that it leads to obvious interventions, I thought this is this is exciting. You know, it actually I want to start go back for a moment to what I referred to before about neuroplasticity. So what I was describing before, is a spiraling down into bad neuroplasticity, the brain has been rewired in this unhealthy Well, way. And the important part of understanding neuroplastic changes is that we can thoughtfully and deliberately rewire and create connections, brain connections, neuro connections, but those that are healthier to move the needle in reverse good neuroplasticity, you know, neurologists have a cool phrase that we use, that when things fire together, they wire together. I've heard that, yeah, great. And that is actually a great description of neuroplasticity. That, you know, it's nothing more complicated than practice makes perfect. You know, if you, if you sit down to learn a musical instrument, you can can't do a thing if you get on a bicycle for the first time. Forget it, you know, but, you know, you keep on doing it. And you know, Eureka, suddenly you're have a new skill, and oftentimes you never lose it. So what is that, it's things that fire together, wire together. And so we can use that understanding and knowledge to think about how what steps we can take to reverse the process, which is causing everything I said before the fear center to be this crazy alarm in our head. That is domineering our life over time for some of us. So what what can we do? Well, you know, actually, in my book, I just want to mention that, you know, I actually wrote my book with people, for people who are going through very difficult times, and I will never forget how disorganized my thoughts were, during that period of time. So I wrote in the book, what I called three steps, which were to organize a strategy because I felt that I needed it. I personally needed things, you know, spoon fed and so forth at the time. And so I thought, I don't want people to feel overwhelmed by what I'm saying here, and that they have to figure it out. So the three steps that I described in the book was the first one was, and I'll describe the three in a moment. The first one I called subconscious, conscious integration. And the second one is immersion and distraction. The third one is gradually opening the mind to new possibilities. So I'll briefly describe each. Subconscious conscious integration is one way to describe that what I described before that there has been a disconnect between the emotional parts of the brain and the cognitive parts of the brain. And from that standpoint, a lot of the disturbing emotions and memories from a time of trauma It ended up being suppressed in our subconscious. They're not accessible to us. Part of the reason they're not, the main reason they're not accessible to us is because it sets an alarm off every time we even go in that direction. Right? So but it's a big part, it is key to healing, to reconnect with that, because when you have a lot of disturbing stuff in your subconscious, this results in flashbacks, nightmares, or panic attacks. Well, that. So that's what that first step is, we'll talk come back and talk about how to accomplish it in a moment to is immersion and distraction. And what that refers to is that, you know, one can't do go through the angst of what some people might call grief work constantly, you have to be very aware that you need to give your mind and yourself and your brain space to chill out and have some enjoyable times. So that's what immersion and distraction means. Sometimes you're going to have to do the hard work of immersing immersing immersing immersing yourself in these difficult memories, which for me was when I was doing the journaling. But that I would plan in my day, also other times where I was going to distract myself from it. And the third ends up being after you've gone through those two steps I just mentioned, the third step is that of time will come when there's enough healing, well, you can begin to open yourself up to new possibilities, because, you know, life will not return to what it was before, after many serious losses. And so, you know, we do have to find a way to make a pivot and start to think of well, how are we going to build this new life, which, you know, take some time.Hannah Choi 37:15So, if someone has a set a sudden traumatic loss, and they haven't read your book, and they have and they, and they, you know, don't you know, know, these steps, or they don't know even where to start, where is a good place to start for people.37:32You know, in the book, I do have a chapter or more where I talk about the nuts and bolts of what you can do. And I think you know, it's really important to know that there isn't one shoe that fits everybody here, we are all very different. And we are looking for some vehicle that allows us to relax enough to get back in touch with disturbing thoughts and emotions, disturbing emotions and memories. Now, you know, for me, it was journaling and journaling. Writing is uniquely well suited to this. But there is mentioned in a moment, many other options. The reason why journaling and writing is uniquely suited is because you are, it's very personal. You can write in a more raw way, when you're writing, knowing nobody else will see this. Because in the end, I wrote a book and put it all in there. That wasn't what I was thinking when I was writing. So they never still doesn't make me comfortable. But you know, when you are writing that you're writing only for yourself and think about it. You can go to a counselor or therapist, you can speak to a dear friend, you can speak to an important clergyman in your church or synagogue or mosque you can you can do all those things. But in every one of those cases, you are sharing something deeply personal with others. And you know what? We all censor ourselves. Yeah, it's only natural and we not you know, who would lay it all out there for somebody to hear we are all censor ourselves. So when you write, you can write just for yourself. You can. It's very difficult to be honest with yourself that you can try your best to be honest with yourself that you can get it on paper, as imperfect as it is. And again, another unique part of writing is that you couldn't go back a week later a day You later a year later and read what you wrote, and annotated and continue to improve it, you know, I find that most people find you go back and read your own words and go, you know, I was, that's only part of the story. And because it teases out more Yeah. And then you can annotate now more. So that's why I think writing is really super. But there are many, many others, you know, there are so many creative outlook outlets. And I think we can think about those creative outlets that people have, whether it's music, or art, dance, all of these outlets are ways that people are expressing themselves and could find it. And it's a way it's kind of a portal into your deepest thoughts. So, all of that, and of course, faith based practices, meditation and other contemplative practices. It goes on and on. Another important source that we shouldn't overlook is getting out in the natural environment. You know, we tend to understate that, but we can all I think, relate to time how often you find yourself if you take a simple walk, or you know, you're you're seeing some beautiful mountains, you're sitting by a lake, you're at the beach, and how it how transforming it is to your thoughts. Yeah. And when you're going through a terrible time, after emotional trauma, that's a ripe moment for you to not only feel like you can exhale, but that you can relax enough to connect with thoughts that otherwise would be inaccessible. The hardest part really is looking in the mirror and understanding ourselves enough to know how to proceed. You know, I'd be the first one to tell you that when I was going through a terrible time, I was not resourceful. Again, getting back to executive function. Now. I was not resourceful. You know, it was like, years later, when I wrote the book, and people are then contacting me from different organizations and podcasts and web, web websites, and so forth. And I went, Oh, my God, there's like an endless array of resources. And I felt totally isolated. And you know, here I am a researcher, I have no difficulty looking things up. But at the time, it was not accessible to me. And I know that's true of others, because everyone has told me.Hannah Choi 42:59Yeah, yeah. I heard I heard, I listened to a podcast that you were on. With a woman who has a podcast about grief, and my working memory is my biggest executive function challenge. So I can't remember the name of it. But anyway, on that you were talking about how how the brain can actually make it so that you don't see objects that are maybe related to the to the person that you lost, or the trauma that you went through. And I thought that was so fascinating, and how that real fat right there for me really shows you that it is your brain. Your your brain. Oh, Dear Life, maybe? Sorry, just came to me, then. Yeah.Dr. Lisa Shulman 43:50Yeah, yeah, I think we should review some of the specific cognitive responses, or effects on cognition. And one of them is what you're talking about, you know, the, you can picture the we're talking before about how the brain is perceiving. This is a threat to our survival. So there are a vast number of protective reflexes and responses that are being activated. And we talked I talked already about many of the physical ones. But from a psychological or emotional standpoint, the brain is in an emotional, protective crouch all the time, which is going to serve to shield us from disturbing triggers disturbing things in our environment. And we have a whole host of psychological defense mechanisms that we all learn long ago, like dissociation, repression, denial and so forth, that are kicked into high gear. It's a subconscious reef. So we're not, we're not deciding we're going to behave that way we don't know that those reflexes are in, I've been kicked off. And this can, as you say, result in literal holes in your perspective or your your vision. And the one that you described to occurred in my life, which was that something as, obviously concrete, as my husband's cell phone, his iPhone, was sitting on our desk. And I mean, not just months, it could have been years, a long time went by, where I just didn't even know, I never saw it. Or I didn't. There was a proper word, I didn't allow myself to see it. You know, but someone actually, in the house, saw it and pointed it out. I had, like, I was shocking to me, it was shocking. I thought, My gosh, it's specific all along. And I chose to ignore it, such that it was a literal hole in my visual field. Yeah. That was just your how, how incredibly strong and powerful these things are, you know, somebody who originally described a dissociation dissociate, described dissociation is fundamental to emotional trauma. And so dissociation is a really important part of this. And my book goes into this in some depth. Resulting in that when you are confronting disturbing stressors in your environment, that your mind has this incredible protective response of just kind of turning off, or shielding you from recognizing what you saw just getting, you know, it might put you in a place for a few seconds or moments where you are, you're basically detached from your environment. Or it might be more mild than that. There can be these interruptions of awareness, it fragments, your memory, because you're having periods of the day where this is occurring, it's causing flashbacks, you can become increasingly emotionally numb, because you're not being open to everything that's really in your environment all the time. So it's a very big part of why many of us feel like something has changed fundamentally, after loss.Hannah Choi 47:53Yeah. It's, and and it's interesting that how you said it, it really just comes back to survival and protecting ourselves.48:05Right! I mean, it's a, it's actually we have to think about it as a very effective strategy that the brain is employing. In other words, if, when, when we have, if we have, you know, horribly, a terrible tragedy or catastrophe occur, we remain able to function and survive. Yeah, it would be possible that we were wired in such a way that we were not able to survive, that, you know, we that you could not function, you could not make a meal, you could not dress yourself, you could not you'd be in such a way, but he said no, the truth is, and I really want to get to this, which is that we're talking about executive function and cognition after trauma. And number one, you can remain extremely high functioning in the face of cognitive change, we are not talking about somebody developing the dementia and being unable to perform their daily activities. Speaking for myself, even in the worst of this, I was seeing patients, writing papers, writing grants, doing everything Yeah. So it just shows you how these things can be quite segregated. Another important point is that the cognitive changes are not across all domains and not across all parts of executive function that you know, as well as I that executive function has many different components. You know, what I'd like to really point to that I think is not discussed enough. And I'm really interested in your thoughts on this, Hannah. You I believe that something that's overlooked a lot is cognitive flexibility.Hannah Choi 50:08I am right there with you.Dr. Lisa Shulman 50:12So, you know, I think that during, after trauma, trauma after emotional trauma, cognitive flexibility takes a big hit for a long time, I imagine. And I just wonder, you know, how do you come across that in your own work?Hannah Choi 50:29I mean, I, I think I really believe that cognitive flexibility is that and metacognition, just understanding how we think and why we think and why we do what we do, and don't do what we don't do, I think those two together are, for me, what I see in my clients and in myself and in others are the most of the two most important, because without that cognitive flexibility, especially I imagine with when you when your life experiences such a great shift, and such a great change. And like you said before, life is not going to go back to how it was before, that cognitive flexibility is probably going to be the answer to finding new ways of doing your life now. And finding happiness and success. I mean, I can't think of another executive function that is going to be more helpful than that. 51:31And really, at the heart of, you know, being able to be successful, because, you know, it runs from the sublime to the ridiculous, you know, if somebody does, for example, reach out for or tries, I was talking before about all the kinds of methods that one strategies one could try, if someone does begin on say, Okay, I'm going to do this, I'm going to go to find a counselor, I'm going to go to a support group. And, and that doesn't have the proper chemistry, or it just doesn't feel like it's being helpful to you for some reason, you know, if you don't have cognitive flexibility and resourcefulness, you know, that it's pretty much a dead end for somebody, rather than saying, Oh, well, you know, there's 10 other ways to do this. The so I mean, that's the sublime, the ridiculous part of it can be that you can literally find yourself doing things in incredibly robotic ways. When you are in a going through a period of terrible emotional trauma, where things are being done the way they were always done very automatically, and you get kind of fixed in the spot. And then when hopefully, you do become more healed and have more insight and cognitive flexibility, you know, like, it's like, one day you think, we're gonna say, you know, I'm doing these three steps, and there's a way to do this one step, why don't I see that all? You know, and, you know, I mean, for those who have experienced the loss of a loved one, I mean, there are some of these things that are so common. The simple example I've spoken to many people, is, if you if it's somebody that you know, a partner, that you find yourself going to the supermarket and buying all the same foods, even though that person is no longer home, you are in thinking I want to buy this in honor of the memory of the lost loved one, you just automatically are buying in and you're stocking your pantry and the things that you don't ordinarily use takes actually a fair amount of time to you wake up to the fact that you're doing that. Another one I talked about on a BBC broadcast is that people oftentimes describe preparing foods that their loved ones preferred, not what they prefer, they prefer it right, right. Again, it's not something that you plan out, you're just automatically doing it. And it takes it sometimes you then in a robotic, you're doing it and you're doing it and you're doing it and you don't have the cognitive flexibility to go this is what's happening and maybe I don't need, you know, five boxes of that.Hannah Choi 54:33Yeah. And it just it really shows you that we are our habits. We are the that like you said, you know, like that, that our brains have been wired that way. So we think that way,54:45You know, one of the things I'll I'll pointed to other examples in the cognitive sphere or to other issues. One is the inattention And we talked about the dissociation and how we results in this loss of awareness and so forth. And, you know, people who have suffered serious emotional trauma are have been found to be quite vulnerable to accidents. And this is a very, it's a significant problem, you know, more falling, more car accidents, just accidents. And, you know, I read about that, but you know, I will just say, again, from pointing to my personal experience, you know, in the year following my husband's death, I fell and broke my ankle. And I was in three car accidents, fortunately, fender benders. And then since then none of that this is almost the 10th year anniversary of his death. I mean, it shows you that there is some cognitive change that you are not as alert to your environment.Hannah Choi 56:07Yeah, yeah, well, it makes sense. And I just did an episode on ADHD. And in my research, I found that people with ADHD, who struggle with attention are also more prone to accidents, car accidents and injuries.Dr. Lisa Shulman 56:23So that also also totally makes sense. Yeah. And like, the final point I don't want to overlook is the impact of our bio rhythms. And, you know, many of us know that we are either you know, morning larks or night owls. And that's just a very fixed part of our genetics. That's not something you can change. And so when you are, you know, you don't you have minimal or no reserve after emotional trauma. So therefore, from the standpoint of cognition, think about if you are, are you a morning Lark or a night owl?Hannah Choi 57:05Well, I am a night owl, I am fighting fighting that right now. I'm trying really hard to become a morning Lark. I'm a little better, but I'm trying to fake it till I make it but it's not happening.57:21So, you know, if you have are in a bad way, with minimal to no cognitive reserve, and you're you should just be aware, well, you know, if you are that morning for you, Hannah, is not going to be the optimum time for you to try to do a serious cognitive task. Right, right. Because you have to two things that are going on. And so why you why even fight it.Hannah Choi 57:53And that's so much of what what I do in my coaching is help helping people figure out when is the best time of day for you to do different things. And you know, when when are you going to be most successful, when is not a great time to try something new or even to try something challenging? Yeah, just becoming aware, learning that learning about ourselves and, and knowing that,58:16I mean, I think it has a lot to do with something important that my husband taught me, which is about being forgiving to yourself. And, you know, I think that all of us, and maybe women even more than men, you know, are, you know, filled with angst and second thoughts and remorse, recrimination, and you know, like, especially for people who are going through terrible times, after traumatic losses, it's very important to know, go gentle with yourself and think, you know, I'm doing my best. And I'm I going to keep on working on this. And sometimes, I'm going to have a longing to regress, sometimes I'm going to really handle something poorly, I'm going to make a poor decision. And that we should go well, I'm going to be forgiving to myself, because I'm going through a hard time and I'm going to learn from this and try again. I think that that's a very important part of it. And on the small side of it in terms of what you were just saying the day to day side of it. You know, you might sit down and think okay, I've set aside this time to do what I called before the subconscious conscious integration, the grief work, the inner work, and you might sit down and it might be very unsuccessful. You just simply can't find you can't find your rhythm like you had on another day? Well, I mean, it's good to acknowledge that it just go well, no, for some reason. For whatever reason, this is not the right time for me. Yeah, I'm gonna do something else. And tomorrow's another day.Hannah Choi 1:00:15yeah. We always talk about how you can't listen to those shoulds. You have to, you know, be gentle with yourself and, and do what's right in the moment. Is there anything else that you can think of? Did you want to go back to your three steps? Was there anything that you wanted to expand on there?Dr. Lisa Shulman 1:00:32You know, I think that, you know, one thing that I would say that can be quite confusing, is when we talk about this idea of subconscious conscious integration, the work to integrate, and reconnect the emotional response to the cognitive functions. And then we refer to that second step of immersion and distraction, I think one of the things that can be confusing, and is to me about exactly how to talk about it, is that the balance between the kinds of things that calm us down, and will be a source of distraction. And the kinds of things that will calm us down and enable us to do the hard work of Yeah, of reconnection of subconscious conscious integration. And that I think, can be a source of confusion. And we sort of all have to find our own balance there. And maybe identify times that are ripe, to even even if it's for a short moment, you know, say for example, in the ways we were talking before, that you might be out in a natural environment, and you feel a sense of relief, and you feel like you can think more clearly. And in that moment, a memory might drift back to you. That is maybe a sad, a sad memory. It's a sad memory. But you see, it just became accessible to you, because you had relaxed enough for that purpose. Yeah. And now, you know, one doesn't have to feel compelled to do some work around that, because you've already accomplished something, like doing that, or feeling feeling sad about it isn't necessarily enough to feel like that's a regression. It's instead, as you go through that, and you in the way we talked about self efficacy, developing confidence in yourself, that you go through, you have that moment, and you might reflect and feel sorrow. And then you go back to maybe what you were doing, and you have just had an experience where you succeeded in the face of you didn't have, you know, a break and emotional breakdown, you didn't weren't triggered, the fight or flight mechanism wasn't triggered to its nth degree, you instead had a moment of sorrow and you went through it, which is different than what would have happened before. That's, that's a success.Hannah Choi 1:03:43Yeah. And that that makes me think back to when you were talking about journaling and how, how when you when you like say, you wrote that down that you find that you this used to happen before and now this now this happens. You can look and see that that evidence that evidence of growth and progress and how that must be really empowering and and give you and bolster that self efficacy that is so helpful in getting through.Dr. Lisa Shulman 1:04:14Yes, and you know, that you're able to acknowledge is that it's a healthy mind to be able to acknowledge that that was a beautiful important part of me. It's not here anymore, you're honoring it. I mean, you you'd give anything to go back and have that person back or undo that traumatic event. But this really refers to the important field of post traumatic growth and how you achieve that. There you with time, you know, we have well, another favorite phrase is Time heals all wounds. isn't enough for most people, not everybody, but for most people, time will result in a lot of healing after traumatic loss. But if one doesn't go through the steps that we're talking about here, to reverse those bad neuroplastic changes in the brain access suppressed memories and emotions, excuse me, access suppressed memories and emotions. If you don't go through those steps, you are blocked from ever growing as fully for your to potential as you could write, you will improve, but you will be blocked from the full potential that you have,Hannah Choi 1:05:50because of the way that your brain is responding.Dr. Lisa Shulman 1:05:54Because you have never you continue to have suppressed memories and emotions that your brain has to continually protect you from. Yeah, right. No, another way we can refer to this, in terms of cognition, and it's important is that when when the when the brain is functioning in that protective mode, the fight or flight, the acute responses, the chronic effects, everything we talked about, it uses up a lot of brain power, a lot of real estate in the brain is being used up to, to shield me from seeing that iPhone, that's not just happening on its own, some portion of the brain is keeps on going, you know, alert to say no to that thing. You know, there's a part of the brain that keeps on doing that over and over. And how can that ever be compatible with full healing and optimum cognitive function? Yeah, it's not possible. No. And it's, it's a lifelong process. It's a lifelong process. It's not as if anybody is ever going to be at the end of that process. We keep on identifying things that are disturbing, and then you have to work through it again.Hannah Choi 1:07:38Which gives you that what gives you the ability to move out of what you said before that the feeling of hopelessness, and there's concrete things that you can do. Yeah. That's great. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate your talking with me. And it's fascinating and difficult to talk about at the same time.Dr. Lisa Shulman 1:08:05No, it's like anything else. So like we just said, it was very difficult to talk about it in the beginning. And now I've talked about it a lot. No longer difficult, and I really enjoyed my time with you.Hannah Choi 1:08:18Thank you. And that is our show for today. Be sure to check out those show notes for links to learn more about today's topic. And thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen, I hope you found some peace and maybe some answers in my conversation with Dr. Lisa Shulman. Help us help others to learn more about executive function skills. Please share our podcasts with your colleagues and your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Through a series of fortunate events, I was connected with Nancy Armstrong, who is the Emmy-nominated Executive Producer of "The Disruptors," the first comprehensive documentary about attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and its effect on kids, adults, and their families. I had the pleasure of sitting down with Nancy to have a conversation about her experience raising her own children who have ADHD and why she wanted to create a comprehensive film to help dispel the myths around ADHD and show the world that ADHD is about so much more than deficits.When you view the film, you may notice a star-studded cast of actors and other talented individuals. Astronaut Scott Kelly, musician Will.i.am, Paris Hilton, and more share the challenges and successes of living with ADHD. The film also features Dr. Ned Hallowell, a renowned ADHD expert and New York Times best-selling author, who's helped lead the charge on ADHD awareness for decades. If you’re listening before January 26, 2023, you can watch The Disruptors for free! (Info in the show notes) Show Notes:Learn more about “The Disruptors”Watch “The Disruptors” for free! Use code TDB-BBS. Available from 1/19/23 - 1/26/23. If you're reading this after January 26th, 2023, click here to find out how to watch.Learn more about Nancy ArmstrongDownload our free ADHD success kitTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:20Through a series of fortunate events, I was connected with Nancy Armstrong, who is the Emmy-nominated executive producer of a documentary film called The Disruptors. This film is all about attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, or ADHD, and how it can affect kids, adults and their families. I got to sit down with Nancy and have a conversation about her experience raising her own children who have ADHD, and about why she wanted to do something to help people learn about it, dispel myths about it and show the world that ADHD is about so much more than deficits, even though the name might make you think otherwise. When you view the film, you'll see a star studded cast of actors and other talented individuals. Astronaut Scott Kelly, musician will.i.am, Paris Hilton, and more share the challenges and successes of living with ADHD. Ned Hallowell, a renowned ADHD expert and author shares both his expertise on ADHD and also his personal experience living with it. Even though these people are all famous, their stories are presented in a way that is just so relatable and real to the rest of us. Gosh, you guys, this documentary is really special. Even before I talked with Nancy, I could tell that it was made with the love and attention a topic like this deserves and just hadn't been given yet. Our Podcast Producer, Sean Potts, says he deeply wishes that he had had the opportunity to watch this when he was younger. That film is powerful message is that yes, having ADHD creates challenges and frustration for people. But ADHD is much more than those challenges and frustrations. Many of the very good things in our world are here because of people with ADHD, who had the creativity, the curiosity and the energy to create them. Watching the film. And hearing this message throughout, it reminded me so much of the clients that I've worked with, who have ADHD, and who have created systems to manage the challenges and work to discover the positive sides. So I am so proud and happy to share Nancy's work with you. And I hope you get a chance to watch after listening to our conversation today. And guess what? If you're listening before January 26, 2023, go to the show notes and click on the link to register for access to view The Disruptors for free. There's a code that you'll need to enter to watch. So make sure you get that you can find that listed in the show notes too. If you're listening after January 26. Keep listening to the episode to hear Nancy share where you can find the film or just look in the show notes for those links. Okay, here we go. Hannah Choi 03:19Hi, Nancy. Thanks so much for joining me today. My thanks for having me. Could you introduce yourself to our listeners?Nancy Armstrong 03:26Sure. I'm Nancy Armstrong. I'm the executive producer of the disruptors.Hannah Choi 03:30I just want to tell all of our listeners that you should absolutely watch this documentary, it was just excellent. It made me laugh. It made me smile. It brought tears to my eyes. And it just made me feel so much hope for people with ADHD and their parents. So thank you for for making it.Nancy Armstrong 03:50Thank you for saying that. That means the world to me.Hannah Choi 03:52Oh, good. So tell me the story of how did you end up being the executive producer of an ADHD documentary? Nancy Armstrong 04:00Well, I have three children with ADHD. And my son was definitely my firstborn. And the most challenging. We sort of figured out very early on something unusual was going on with him. We couldn't figure out what it was. He seemed normal, but also incredibly active to the point of us getting kicked out of Mommy and Me class at when he was a toddler. So there were a bunch of signs in the beginning, and we couldn't quite figure out what it was. And then finally, at age eight, he was diagnosed after going through a round of tests, he was diagnosed with ADHD. And that was great that we understood it finally, but that was kind of the beginning of our journey, learning how to manage it, learning how to treat it. Also in that same office, my husband raised his hand and said I have all those symptoms. And the doctor said well, it's genetic. So that was the beginning of our journey and and it was just incredibly difficult going through the K through 12 system and also I had this idea that well, my husband has it. And he was very successful. He had all of the challenges of ADHD. But he also had some pretty impressive, impressive strengths that I didn't even tie to ADHD until I met Ned Hallowell, and talked to him about my son. And he also met my husband, Tim. And he said, Well, you know, all those strings are ADHD too. And we just kind of went, what that's there, everything is tied together. So that was the beginning. And I thought, Man, there should be a documentary on this. And so for 10 years, I waited for someone to make this documentary, and they never made it. And so finally, in 2018, I quit my job and decided to make the film because I knew it could help so many people, not only in this country, but around the world. And that we finally had to reframe ADHD from this deficit disorder model, to something that is two sides of a coin, on the one hand challenges but on the other hand, incredible strengths. And if you can maximize those, it can be a huge asset.Hannah Choi 06:00I really loved how, how Ned in in the documentary talked about how, like, let's look at the challenges and then flip them over and see what the what the positive of all of those challenges are. And, and I really loved how he worded that I love him. He's so great. Yeah.Nancy Armstrong 06:19Symptoms, you know, it's like every, for every symptom, that is an impediment. Distractibility, impulsivity and hyperactivity, you know, with Ned's analysis is you flip each one of those on its head, and you get a positive. And if you can learn to accelerate those positives, then the negatives will be less prominent, you'll you'll be motivated to be on time to get organized and to do all those things, because you'll want to accelerate your gifts.Hannah Choi 06:48Yes, yes, absolutely. And I see that a lot in the clients that I work with as, as an executive function coach, not not all of my clients have ADHD, but the ones that that do, I do notice that when they start to figure that out, they are much more motivated to start using tools and strategies, because they're excited about all these other things that I that I can take advantage of and make happen, it becomes maybe easier to do that. And then it's more, it's less challenging and more rewarding.Nancy Armstrong 07:18Yeah, and the more the world understands it that way, rather than looking at a child with ADHD and saying, Oh, you're disorganized, your homeworks not turned in, you're late, you know, all the all of these challenges to be to be addressed in a different way of, Oh, you're very curious, you're very creative, you have a lot of ideas, you have boundless energy, and to sort of approach it that way, and will work on your challenges is much more positive way to go through your formative years, and I think can make a huge difference in outcomes.Hannah Choi 07:49Absolutely. And with that confidence, it bringing that confidence piece in if you can not look at it, like from a deficit viewpoint, then that confident you're able to build that confidence back and, and or maybe not build it back, but just build it. And, and then, and then they can go so much farther with that. Yeah, I really like how, how it was addressed in the documentary that unfortunately, it ADHD is named, it brings up the deficit within the name, which is a shame, it's too bad to can't be named something else with the positive in there instead.Nancy Armstrong 08:26And we haven't figured that out yet. Yeah, I really tried. Why the will, I am said, Ada. I have my friend Kenny Dichter, who's in the film calls it a 10 Attention Deficit advantage, but really, it's not an it's a deficit of attention. It's really an abundance of attention going in too many directions. So the name is, you know, not only trivializes the diagnosis, but it's also kind of incorrect.Hannah Choi 08:51Yeah, I feel like it kind of has, its what typical society, the systems within the society needs, it needs you to in order to function smoothly and properly, it needs you to be able to focus with the appropriate amount on one thing at a time. And so it's it's harder to fit into that system that's, that's built. My family and I were talking about it about it yesterday, and we were saying, and one of my clients said this, too, he you know, he said people with ADHD, and I think it came up with the the son of the boy who likes to go fishing. I can't remember his injuries, maybe a Hogan. Yeah. You know, he, like he they were saying like if he didn't he wasn't living in today's world, then it wouldn't have been a problem. It would have been like a really great benefit. Because and that's what my clients said. He's like, if you're out in the, you know, in the bush, you want someone with ADHD because they're going to notice everything, and they're going to be able to pay attention.Nancy Armstrong 09:54Well, that's why people with ADHD are more suited to certain kinds of careers, you know? With high stimulation, so firefighters, ER doctors, you know, newsroom producers, they need environments with a ton of stimulation. It doesn't stress them out, like it might stress out a neurotypical person, it turns them on. So we tried to get as many people in the film in those kinds of careers, you know that we have many, many, well known people from different walks of life, that have used ADHD to their advantage while still managing the downsides. And they all talked about how tough it was going through school growing up. But then they've kind of turned that corner and realized what they were good at. And we're able to accelerate that into an incredible career.Hannah Choi 10:42Yeah, I love the variety of people that you had, how did you connect well, with all of them? Nancy Armstrong 10:46Some of them we knew. As soon as we got, you know, Hall of Fame astronaut, Scott Kelly on board, you know, everyone wants to be part of that group. So it was extremely helpful when he said yes, and will.i.am said yes right away. So that was incredible and a lot of people. Honestly, Howie Mandel just said, I think it's important. I think this is an important film. So I was surprised at how many people said yes, but I think it was because they knew what the mission of the film was. And they want to reframe ADHD once and for all, and because the world has it wrong, and we need to get it right.Hannah Choi 11:22 Yes, yes, I agree. I interviewed Bob Shea, who's a children's author who has ADHD. And he felt the same way. He was really happy to talk about his challenges. He was diagnosed as an adult, he was really happy to talk about his challenges, because he is for the same reason. Yeah. So did creating the documentary change anything for ADHD, about ADHD? For you, I mean, your experience change? Nancy Armstrong 11:46Well, I think it's funny. First of all, I will say the experiences are all universal. And that was really surprising to me that as we interviewed all of these families, it was the same story of our family. So it is interesting, it's a real community and the same story of all the public personalities that spoke so everyone has had this sort of shared universal experience that they don't know, it feels very isolating, like, you're the only one going through it. And you're the only one having this experience. But it's actually very universal among 10% of the population. So you're not alone. But also how difficult it is, even when you know, what it is and how it works and what you can do to help you still, as a parent, fall down every once in a while, and there's a lot of parental guilt. You know, in fact, while I was in the middle of making the film, my 16 year old daughter said to me, "You're making a film on this, and you still don't get it". And I thought, Oh, interesting. Wow, every day, and I'll still say, the dumb thing of like, What do you mean you missed 10 homework assignments, you didn't turn it? What are you doing, like, you know, it's not intentional, it's just, that's what happens. And you have to put systems in place to help them and, you know, try to avoid situations like that, but they're going to happen, that's just the nature of growing up with ADHD.Hannah Choi 13:04And, and that brings back the how important it is for parents and people to learn about ADHD so that they can recognize maybe something is going on, that their child could get help with earlier than later. The the story of Zara really just broke my heart, my heart went out to her mother, she, she's seems like it was really painful for her to remember back to before she knew that her daughter had ADHD. And just thinking, you know, there's so many families out there that are going through or have gone through that.Nancy Armstrong 13:37Oh, yeah, the story is so relatable. I mean, people have told me they watch the film, and they cry through the whole thing. Which is, means it's hitting a nerve, a very universal corner, particularly of parental guilt. And same things I should say, because these kids will really push you to the brink of your sanity and patience. Because there really, there's a relentlessness about so many kids with ADHD that is hard to parent. But I think it's so healing for parents to watch the film. And so healing for kids to watch the film to know that it's not just them. And this is the way your brain is wired. And it's okay. It will be challenging growing up, but you can harness it and make a great life for yourself.Hannah Choi 14:20 Yeah, it's yeah, it's beautiful. It really is a beautiful message in there. And you brought up the brain. I love that you had an explanation of the brain and how that works. And I've noticed in my work with people, when they find out how their brain works and how their brain causes them to do or not do things really, really helps. It really helps to just understand and feel better about it.Nancy Armstrong 14:44I thought it was important to show the brain science behind this because there is so much confusion, particularly this myth that ADHD doesn't exist. So I wanted to blow right through that with the brain science showing exactly how the brain works. Where ADHD is, you know In the brain, and you know how it's working in the brain, and also to show if people decide to use stimulant medication as one of the tools, what that's actually doing in the brain and how for people with ADHD, if there's no high that they get, it only calms them down. I mean, that's a critical thing to understand is that people with ADHD takes stimulant medication, there's no euphoria, it just brings them there, their dopamine is here, and it brings it to here. You know, with a person who is not ADHD, they're no normal dopamine level then shoots up. That's why they're getting a high because they're having something unnaturally high in their brain. So that's important to understand. And I understand there's, you know, there's an Adderall shortage, it probably it's either supply chain, or it has to do with the fact that too many doctors, regular doctors, like primary care physicians, or pediatricians are just writing prescriptions for pushy parents of kids who haven't been properly diagnosed. And that's a problem we need to solve. But that has no relationship to people who have been diagnosed properly with ADHD and need that medication because it's making a huge difference in helping them live a better life.Hannah Choi 16:13Yeah, and that's another reason why understanding that brain science is so important to help people understand that the medication is not you know, like how the medication works. Once you understand how it works, it's a lot easier to understand why someone would take it because it really does sound like quite contradictory. Why would I give stimulant medication to someone who already has a lot of energy? So but when you understand how the brain works, then it makes sense. Yeah. So in addition to that, which what are some key takeaways that you feel are really important for parents to and parents and educators? Right, and just people in the world that interact with other people that might have ADHD? What can they take away from your film?Nancy Armstrong 16:56Well, one of the messages of the film is if we could just help people understand in broader society, that these are imaginative, creative beings, that just need a little more support to get on the right track. And I'm talking mostly about children who really struggle because, you know, the very nature of a sort of assembly line, rote approach to education is anathema to the ADHD brain. So if you have children in your class that are late that are not turning in homework, it might make sense to investigate what's going on, rather than just writing them off as a bad kid. Maybe this is a child with ADHD, maybe the parents, no, maybe they don't. But as soon as you understand those children in your class that have ADHD, you can approach them differently. And there's a relationship that can happen between a teacher and a child that makes a world of difference. If the teacher writes the child off, the child knows, and they give up, and there's, that's the end of that, that's the end of eighth grade science. That's it. Or if the child can have understanding from the teacher, if the teacher can say, Okay, I know you have ADHD, so I know these things are going to be difficult for you. But these things are going to be easier for you. So let's make sure we're focusing on your strengths and some of your challenges. And that's a that creates a relationship. And, you know, I remember my son had a Spanish teacher freshman year in high school, who was so determined for him to succeed. He just said, I know you can do it, I know you can do it. And my son felt sort of an obligation to that teacher, to prove him not prove him wrong, you know, so the teachers can have an incredibly positive impact on children. And I think to empower teachers with that knowledge is a huge takeaway. And then I think for parents, you also have an incredible responsibility and ability to have such a positive impact on your child, if you can control your response to them, which is incredibly difficult day in and day out. Everyday is Groundhog Day, what we just talked about yesterday is now happening again today, as if yesterday never happened. So it does require Herculean patience, and that's a good thing to develop in life anyway for an adult way. But, you know, just love your child, even when they're, you know, really behaving badly is to just love them through those moments. You'll feel like a better person, you'll feel like a superstar person if you can do that. And your child will fare so much better under those circumstances. So I think that the the message is like parents are kind of the childhood cure for ADHD because without parents by your side fighting for you advocating for you, loving you, it's really hard to get through.Hannah Choi 19:39And I love that that message came through really strongly with the families that you interviewed the parents. You could tell they they just love their children so much and just we're trying so hard to to help them and and their hearts are just breaking for them. It was it was very moving. It was very, very moving to watch that. Nancy Armstrong 20:01Oh, thank you. And I see that in school, we do screenings, we've done screenings all over the country. And the parents, we do q&a, usually afterwards. And parents cry through that q&a. I mean, it's the same pain. It's so universal. And you know, it's interesting, they're doing, I just read, they're doing a screening in Ireland, they, so there's a screening in Ireland, and they're doing a q&a Afterward, I won't be there. But it's just amazing that all over the world, the screenings are happening, and people are having this new conversation about ADHD and, and finding community, which I think is so important. I've never had one public conversation about it, until I made the film. And, you know, the film was like a forum for those conversations.Hannah Choi 20:44Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that's, that is exactly why I'm doing this conversation. This, that's exactly why I'm doing this podcast is to have more of these conversations. And hopefully, even just one person hears the conversation and recognizes that it's okay to talk about and that it's helpful to talk about it. And it's helpful to find the community and, and, actually, that's something that that that you guys brought up in the documentary was how important it is to try to reach people because there are services and there are support supports and information and knowledge and, you know, family support and child support and medication support. But helping people learn about that and get access to that is, is the hard part. And so thank you for doing the work that you're doing and why I do what I do. Nancy Armstrong 21:36So, yeah, yeah, that's another thing that's really concerns me is that there, there's a dearth of ADHD experts in the country and around the world. So one of the things I think we really need to do is have more training for primary care physicians, more training for pediatricians, because they don't have the requisite amount of training to really deal with this. And they're going to have to because there won't, in the absence of experts, it will fall to them. And we saw in the film, you know, Bear's pediatrician told his mother to cut Concerta in half. And Concerta is a time release medication. So you can't cut time release medication in half. Bear was given a whole day's worth of, of a methylphenidate because of cutting that in one shot because of cutting that medication in half. So that's unacceptable, you know, primary care physicians prescribing this medication need to know how to prescribe it, and how to tell parents to use it because they don't know it's up to the doctors, and they're obviously under trained.Hannah Choi 22:43Yeah. And Bear's mom was, you know, had the, the, the knowledge that there was someone else she could ask that she, you know, could get more information, but not everybody realizes that a lot of people, you know, have the experience, you know, where they, they either don't trust the doctor, so they don't look for more help. Or they, they just take the doctors word for it. And they don't realize like, oh, you can ask for more you can if it doesn't feel right, you can look for help elsewhere.Nancy Armstrong 23:14So I'm glad, or if one medication doesn't work, and that is a painful process is that trial and error process. If one doesn't work, there's another one that might and, you know, good for her for sticking it out and finding I think it was focalin that finally, like, just gave bare target symptom relief with no side effects. And he, you know, his life just got so much better because he was happier. You know, no child wants to be disruptive in class. They're not doing it on purpose. Their brains are wired differently. And they're telling them to move when they're supposed to sit still. They're telling them to speak when they're supposed to be quiet. So getting that support is incredibly valuable to child because children just want to go to school every day and fit in. It's like going to school every day where everyone has blue paint, and you show up with yellow paint. It's a horrible feeling. I mean, you know, my son now is 21. But he just recalls how despairing he was how bereft he was at having that experience every day and how hopeless it made him feel. Even though we were on top of it, even though we were supporting him. It's still like they're going there for eight hours a day. And if they feel that they're out of step the entire time. That's got to be a terrible feeling.Hannah Choi 24:29Yeah, and that early, early, early experience of that, you know, all those experiences that we have, create those connections in our brains and then to unlearn those feelings about yourself and to unlearn the your expectations of how people are going to react to you. And that's that is a lifelong process. I mean, regardless of your if whether you have ADHD or not like the things that happen to us as children, you know, it's stuff we have to deal with for the rest of our lives. Nancy Armstrong 25:00They make lasting, you know, they make indelible marks on your psyche. And, you know, the other thing with kids is because they miss social cues because they're a little out of step socially. They get bullied, kids with ADHD are bullied two times more than kids without ADHD, and more than half of kids with ADHD are bullied. And that is a terrible thing to have to overcome, you know, and leaves lasting damage. And so even though I was a parent who was pretty on top of it, I mean, it was very unpopular in my town, because just golf parents up, I mean, I was pretty relentless. Trying to stop it, and you know, why would stop one and another one would pop up. But, you know, it's still it still leaves a lasting mark on their emotional development.Hannah Choi 25:46Yeah. And that brings up the importance of, of, you know, reaching out if, and getting therapy and therapy to help develop strategies to get you through your day, but also therapy to help, you know, with those emotions that come along with, like, not fitting in to, to what society expects people to, to act like. I imagined that that's really helpful. I was glad that you guys address that in the document in the documentary, and coaching as well. Is that Nancy Armstrong 26:16Yeah, very important. I mean, there's a toolbox of things that can really help manage ADHD. And I don't think the film doesn't advocate for any one of them. More specifically, it's really a multi pronged approach that is, is, you know, the best prescription for managing ADHD.Hannah Choi 26:33Yeah, absolutely. So, as an executive function, coach, I'm, you know, always curious about how you have challenges affect different people, what areas of executive function challenge you?Nancy Armstrong 26:46Well, I don't have ADHD, I think I grew up with it, I think I'm one of there's like, 25, there's 25%, or 30% of people who have symptoms in childhood, but outgrow them when their brain reaches full maturity. And my brain didn't really reach full maturity until I was 30. So that's kind of another sign of ADHD or we lag behind. But my husband definitely still has it, both the positives and the negatives. And, as do my children, and I think the biggest one for adults, that is, details. It's those details and time management and, you know, those kinds of things. So I'm a compulsive list maker, you know, which is probably my way of overcompensating for, you know, the challenges I had in my, you know, childhood and 20s. Super organized now, like psychotically, organized basically swung the pendulum from total disorganization to militant organization. So I'm probably more regimented now as a as a reaction to being so unregimented.Hannah Choi 27:55Yeah, right. Right.Nancy Armstrong 27:57It's a coping. It's a coping skill.Hannah Choi 27:59Yeah, absolutely. I, I have a terrible my working memory is, is pretty atrocious. And so I am like, crazy about writing things down and making lists and resetting reminders. And it's still forget things here and there. But yeah, I think you have to, you kind of have to go to the other side. And with that comes, that comes with maturity, right? As we get older, we can recognize the value of doing those things. And it's harder when you're little. But I loved how the kids started to say it, like, especially Zara, she mentioned that she realized that, that working a little harder and try and doing different things to make things better for herself, really, really paying off in the long run, which I loved.Nancy Armstrong 28:40And, I think for adults, too. We had an adult female in the film, and I think it was really great to see how it affects an adult's life. You know, I think a lot of adults weren't diagnosed as children and then figure it out when they have children. Because otherwise I wouldn't figure it out. You know, if you're, if your children are, it's kind of when your kids get diagnosed, that you go, "Oh, that's exactly me, too". You know, my mother, I think had a pretty serious case of ADHD. We never understood what it was. And I think she felt bad about it for so much of her life, not knowing exactly why she was the way she was, but knowing she was different. And it was, you know, just it was what it was. So I think it's super helpful for people who think they may have ADHD. And it's to the degree to which it's really causing impairment in your life. Everyone forgets who he is, and, you know, forgets things every once in a while, but it's the degree to which it becomes untenable in your life and starts to really interfere with being successful.Hannah Choi 29:37Right? Yeah, I used to work at an office for students with disabilities at a community college. And so often, like our kids would come in to get tested for learning disabilities, or they would go to an outside source to get tested for ADHD. And their parents who would always come in or call or somebody say, oh, my gosh, I realize now that that's me, like I I finally have an explanation for why I have had challenges in my life. And so, yeah, it's it's wonderful to see adults figuring that out. Nancy Armstrong 30:07Yeah, I think it's a huge relief. Absolutely. You know, you know, as Eliza said, In the film, before she found out, you know, she, where she was diagnosed, she just thought she was terrible at adulthood. Yeah. And that's, you know, it's heartbreaking, very successful. She's very successful entrepreneur, but, you know, keeping all the details and time management and all those things were really a challenge for her but big picture thinking, and, you know, creating things she was great at.Hannah Choi 30:36Yeah, yeah, one of my clients. He's an adult who actually has graduated from coaching, but he was diagnosed at 33. And he's the same way, you know, just really great at the big, the big picture and harder with the details. And, and he said, it just explained everything for him in his life. And now he's just doing so great. And he, it's really wonderful to see the progress that he's made, figuring out how his brain works, and what works and what doesn't so. So is there anything else that you want to mention? Nancy Armstrong 31:17I want to tell people where to find the film. You can find the film on iTunes, Apple TV, Google Play YouTube, Amazon Prime and Vudu.Hannah Choi 31:26Yeah, I've watched it on Amazon.Nancy Armstrong 31:28We can screen it at your schools. You know, I think we, we need to get this film in schools.Hannah Choi 31:35Absolutely. Yes, I will put all the information in the show notes for how they can find out more about screenings, and about the film itself, and the important message that it's sharing with everybody. Really appreciate it. Is there anything else that you're working on? Is this inspired you to do something else?Nancy Armstrong 31:59Right now I'm focusing on promoting the film. Whenever we, you know, reach the tipping point. It's not we're not there yet. So I want it to be ubiquitous. And I think it will be a sort of an evergreen film. I mean, we have the world's we follow a diverse number of families and, and have all these, you know, well known people speaking in the film, so I think this will be the film. And until it's out there everywhere. My work is not done.Hannah Choi 32:27Yeah. Oh, good. Great. Yes. It's, I just tell everyone, please go watch this movie, this documentary. It's, first of all, it's just so well made. It's so easy and enjoyable to watch. Heartbreaking at times. And so uplifting and full of hope at the end, and actually not even just at the end throughout. And I just, I loved it. I loved every minute of it. So thank you for that work.Nancy Armstrong 32:55Oh, well, I made the film with Atlas films. Director is Stephanie Soechtig and another producer, Kristen Lazar, and they are brilliant documentary filmmakers. And they've done, you know, a number of documentaries that have really taken a subject and turned it on its head, like, set up the Devil We Know, Under the Gun. So I was extremely excited when they said yes to working with me on this. And I think the film is is good as it is, in large part because of working with them. Hannah Choi 33:24Well, thank you so much, Nancy, for joining me today and sharing about your film and for continuing to do the work that you're doing to help people understand ADHD and understand people with ADHD it's so important to so thank you for doing it.Nancy Armstrong 33:38Oh, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.Hannah Choi 33:43And that's our show for today. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to learn more about The Disruptors. And as I mentioned before, beyond booksmart is offering free access to view the film through January 26 2023. So I really hope you get to take advantage of that. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen, I hope you found my conversation with Nancy inspiring, and that you get a chance to view the film. As Nancy aims to do with The Disruptors. We here at focus forward. I also hope to help as many people as we can with each episode. So please share our podcast with your colleagues and your friends and your family. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you listen. And if you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can give us a boost by sharing that five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcasts. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Whether it's the first day at daycare or preschool, the beginning of kindergarten, or the transition to middle or high school, sending our kids off into the world at any age is a scary thing. But for college, it can can be downright terrifying. According to both the experts and the people in my life, it’s the biggest leap of faith of all - especially these days with the high rates of depression and anxiety among college kids (both of which have doubled since 2014!) Luckily, there are people like Dr. Marcia Morris out there to support both our kids and ourselves. Marcia is a psychiatrist at the University of Florida and she provides mental health support both on campus and virtually for students at the university. Marcia and I sat down to talk about the best ways that parents can help their kids succeed in school, how medication may play a role in that success, and how kids can find joy in both their academic and social lives.Here are some resources related to the topic of college students' mental health.988 LifelineLearn More about Dr. Marcia MorrisMarcia’s websiteThe Campus Cure: A Parent's Guide to Mental Health and Wellness for College StudentsPsychology Today BlogCollege Mental Health ResourcesHealthy Minds StudyHow Colleges Today Are Supporting Student Mental HealthStudent mental health is in crisis. Campuses are rethinking their approachBefore Heading to College, Make a Mental Health ChecklistTaking a Mental Health Leave from CollegeGap YearsTaking a Gap Year Before Grad SchoolTaking a Gap Year Before CollegeLearn More About Gap Years TranscriptHannah Choi 0:04 Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges, and celebrate the wins, you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Happy New Year, everyone. We made it through another year. And I have to say I am super excited about what's to come in 2023. I'm so glad you're here with me. And I hope you continue to find this podcast useful, and relatable and easy to listen to. We're always open to new topic ideas. So if you've got anything you'd like me to explore, please reach out. Sending our kids off into the world at any age is a scary thing. Their first day at daycare or preschool, when they start kindergarten, or transition to middle or high school. Both of my kids will be starting at new schools next year, high school for my daughter and middle school for my son. So you might want to check in on me and see how I'm doing later this fall. But I think the scariest is probably going to be when they head off to college. From what I hear from friends and family is that it's the biggest leap of faith that you'll take as a parent. And especially these days when we hear that the rates of depression and anxiety among college kids have doubled since 2014. And we have way too much access to news which can really make it seem like bad stuff is happening all the time, even though it's not. But luckily there are people like Dr. Marsha Morris out there. Marsha is a psychiatrist at the University of Florida. And she provides mental health support both on campus and virtually for students at the University. She's also written a book, which she'll talk about and she writes a blog as well. Marsha and I sat down to talk about the best ways that parents can help their kids succeed in school, how medication may play a role in that success, and how kids can find joy in both their academic and social lives. Before I dive into this important conversation, I want to share a critical resource that everyone needs to know about the 988 suicide and crisis lifeline. This completely free service offers 24/7 Call, text and chat access to trained crisis counselors who can help people experiencing suicidal substance use and or mental health crisis or any other kind of emotional distress. People can also dial 988 If they are worried about a loved one who may need crisis support. Do not hesitate to reach out for help if you are struggling, or you suspect a loved one might be okay. Thank you for listening and now on to the show. Hi, Marcia. Thanks so much for joining me for today's episode.Marcia Morris, MD 3:06 I'm so glad to be here today, Hannah.Hannah Choi 3:09 Great I'm really looking forward to this conversation about supporting college kids. My kids are are not yet ready for school or college. My daughter's my eldest is in eighth grade. But I know it's gonna happen in a blink of an eye. So could you introduce yourself to our listeners? Marcia Morris, MD 3:26 Sure. My name is Dr. Marcia Morris. And I've worked as a college psychiatrist at the University of Florida for nearly 30 years. I became a college psychiatrist right after I finished my training. And I chose to work with university students because it's such an exciting age where so many changes are going on and people are finding out their path in life. So, but one thing that I've noticed over the years is it's kids are facing more challenges and having more mental health issues. And as a result of that, I'll mention a book I wrote for parents of college students called The Campus Cure: A Parent's Guide to Mental Health and Wellness for College Students. It really takes a team you need providers, parents, professors to all help students be successful in school. And I write a blog for Psychology Today called College Wellness: Promoting Happiness and Health and the College Years. Again, for parents who can be great facilitators and helping college students have a joyful college experience.Hannah Choi 4:39 Before I had my kids, I worked in the Office for Students with Disabilities at a community college in Santa Barbara, California, back when I lived where it was warm year round, and, and and a lot of the work that we did was helping parents figure out how to best support their kids. And so I'm really excited to dive into that today with you. So good. Thanks. Thank you for joining me. So what are some, I mean, let's dive right in. What are some, what's some advice that you can give to parents who have kids that are heading off to college?Marcia Morris, MD 5:16 Well, I have a an expression that is, uses four Ts. It's tell, teach, talk and take action. And the tell part is really letting your kids know that you love them, you're there for them, you support them, they can call you any time. And it's really important to say that because kids say, Oh, I go into college, I should be totally on my own, but you're a good sounding board for them. So tell them you're available, you should teach them about some of the challenges that they could face, whether it's related to availability of substances, like alcohol, and kind of setting limits for themselves, but also teach them about mental health issues. Because unfortunately, rates of depression and anxiety are going up in college. And so you, if your child is experiencing this, you want them to get help as soon as possible. So talking openly about mental health is really important teaching them about that. Talk regularly. When you go, your child goes to college, or it could be like talking on the phone doing a video chat. I know there's a lot of texting going on. But there is value to having that either phone contact or face to face contact at least once a week, if not more the first year just to see how they're doing because it's a very...the first year is a pretty vulnerable time. And take action if you think something really bad is going on. And that could be visiting your child at the school if they just sound really bad. Well, that might be the last step. The first step might be saying, Hey, I'd like to speak with your RA and check in with them and maybe talk to both of you because I I'm concerned about you. But But things can, things can be really stressful and kids can get in a vulnerable place. And sometimes kids even stopped going to class. So it's if that's happening, if something seems like your child is very depressed, it's it's time for a visit to the school. So that's the take...you hope you that that doesn't happen. Or it might be a visit that weekend to check in. It may not be that dramatic, it might be Hey, you know, you sound like you're having a tough time. I'd love to just visit over the weekend and check in. I like that. Yeah, calling every day even if you're think someone's in a bad spot. Yeah,Hannah Choi 7:49 I like the story that you shared in your book about I think the girl was called Sarah. And just her experience, how her mom kind of went through that process that you just explained. And, and I and I really I liked, I liked hearing that story, because I felt like, I felt like she supported. She She helped her daughter both figure out how to solve it by herself and gave her some actual nice support for her as well. SoMarcia Morris, MD 8:20 right and you don't want you know, you might need to come and visit but you don't want to be there all the time. But it it it just there might be some moments in the college experience where students need more help. And hopefully, when that's happening, your student is already speaking with a therapist or a psychiatrist. And it's worthwhile encouraging your student to sign a HIPPA release of information form so that you can the you your child and the psychiatrist or the therapist can talk together and problem solving. Find out what's going to help your student get through their the crisis they might be experiencing.Hannah Choi 9:04 And do you do you ever find in your experience where the student doesn't want the parent involved but still needs that support?Unknown Speaker 9:16 Sometimes if someone's having a severe problem, they don't want the parents involved at the beginning. But I would say in almost all instances if things if they're not feeling better, they're more depressed, they're having trouble functioning. Most of the time they'll allow a family member or a friend and might not be the parent but they they will allow someone someone that that but so they might say oh I can handle this on my own I'm fine. And a year later they're still struggling. And they say yeah, let's call my... dad and get him involved. So but it's you can't force it on someone and legally the only way you can call a parent with about a student's consent is if there is an immediate risk of danger to self or others. And maybe twice in 30 years, I've done that it's such a rare event. And it has to be really important to talk with other people and get even legal counsel and make sure you're not overstepping the bounds of the law, because you really want to protect people's confidentiality. But most most students at some point, recognize you they can't go at it alone. If their depression is really bad, they need to involve someone else for support.Hannah Choi 10:33 Yeah. And so that, that makes me think that the importance of maintaining a good relationship with your child when they're away at school, and so how do you what do you suggest for parents for ensuring that happen? Unknown Speaker 10:49 Well, I have another acronym. It's love. Hannah Choi 10:54 Oh, I love it. Marcia Morris, MD 10:55 So the L is laugh and enjoy. And the point of that is, you have to have a good just have a fun relationship with your child, it's not always going to be fun, you're, you're not their best friend, you're still their parent, but But you have to have that enjoyment together, because they're not going to listen to you otherwise, right? You know, a show, there might be a show you watch together, if when they're home, take a walk together, it can't be all about, you need to do this. Hannah Choi 11:22 Yeah, you need to connect with them. Unknown Speaker 11:24 We right we have to have that initial kind of bond, this the bond makes sure there's that loving bond first before you can do anything other, otherwise, your kids aren't gonna want to listen to you. But anyways, the other thing that I think it's really important for parents to is, O, part of love observe. We can get very wrapped up in our kids, and we think they're the greatest thing on earth. And sometimes we don't see when they're having an issue or they're struggling with something, we want to think everything's good. And there are some parents who are negative and just find fault. But try to find that that happy medium of just seeing your kid seeing - Are they making friends at school? Are they Is it the end of freshman year, and they're still very lonely, and they haven't made a friend and that that's a time where you might make some try to get them connected with a counseling center or encourage them to join clubs. But are they making the development are they developing academically and socially? But see, see how you think they're doing and then then also, but validate where they're really are shining and progressing. And let's say they got a C in a class and they they took a similar class next semester, and they worked hard and got a tutor and got an A, like, say, Wow, that's so you know, I saw you do that, that's, I saw you put the effort in, that's really great. And also validate when they're, they're having a tough time. And, like, I think when I went to college, it was easier than what my kids, I just in general, less stressful than when my kids went to college. So sometimes parents have a tendency said, Oh, it wasn't that bad when I went to college, but some things are just harder. Now. It's more competitive, it's harder to get into grad school. So validate that there might be struggles, but also, the last part of love is encourage, even if they're struggling and there, you still encourage them problem solve. I use that word a lot. But problem solved. If you're really stuck, say, Listen, I want to sit down with you and look at we'll go on the website of school and let's think about what resources you can do to you know, make this work. And so that it's really important to you don't want to be totally you don't want to say goodbye or going to college. But most don't. Most parents are pretty involved now. Yeah, but but it's it's important. You don't want to be overly involved either.Hannah Choi 14:00 Right? You have to find a good balance. Marcia Morris, MD 14:02 Yeah, right. But but you do. I think kids need a lot of encouragement toHannah Choi 14:08 Yeah, I mostly work with college age students, for my executive function coaching clients. And this is all sounding very familiar to me experiencing like challenges freshman year, and then heading into sophomore year with a little bit more support, you know, from a coach or from like, mom had to step in and help a little bit and now and then they then they really start to do well with a little extra support.Marcia Morris, MD 14:37 So right and I like you know and I your company does great coaching I know that and and sometimes there's something called Success Coaching on campus. It's not at every school but though they will they those coaches will take a look at students holistically and see how they're doing socially, academically and often they can access the grades. And sometimes students, if they're doing badly might not want to admit it. So they'll just sit with a student be very supportive and direct them, they might direct them to a different major, some kids start, it's actually I read something, at least 30% of students switch majors, at least one time, I've heard a range of statistics, but it's very common to switch majors. So they might have helped them switch majors, they might suggest a different club to join. So that guidance is so helpful.Hannah Choi 15:38 Yeah, right, helpful. I know, I always encourage my clients take advantage of your academic advisor. Or if you qualify for services at the Disability Resource Center, go and get to know them, even if you don't go regularly just know what they offer. And, and so is that is that something that you recommend to your students as well? Marcia Morris, MD 15:59 Absolutely, absolutely. For all the patients in our clinic, we generally encourage them to sign up for the Disability Resource Center for whether they have anxiety, depression, or ADHD. Because they you never know when they're going to need the resources. Sometimes they they register, we have to write a letter and they submit it and they register. And they may not even use it, but then there might be a point where they need it. And the accommodations could include time and a half for testing or testing in a quiet room. And then to get additional accommodations. It's more of a kind of a discussion with the Disability Resource Center about whether they can hand and work late. And and so there's Yeah, it's a process and that has benefited many students that I've worked with over the years. Yeah, very appreciative of the disability resource centers on campus.Hannah Choi 16:57 Yeah, that was that's always my one of my first questions for anyone who might qualify for services there. Have you checked in with them? Have you gotten to know them. And I saw that a lot when I worked in, in, in the office that I worked at is sometimes some semesters kids needed it, you know, for everything and other semesters they didn't. But just having itMarcia Morris, MD 17:20 Right, and with mental health issues, with some mental health issues, there could be an exacerbation of symptoms, ADHD, tends to be pretty steady. And you know, what kind of some of the issues are with depression, something might happen in someone's life, and they might have a more severe episode and need more accommodations at that moment. Get registered, and then going back in and, you know, adding accommodations can be very helpful. One thing I was going to suggest also is students should register at the very beginning of the year. We had talked before about how with COVID. It's sometimes it's there's students have been more overwhelmed, at least on our campus, they're accessing the disability resource center. Yeah. But so you want to get ahead of the line as much as possible. Because if you wait till the middle or end of the semester, it can be hard to get an appointment to discuss options. Yeah. And also counseling services. Hannah Choi 18:25 Yeah, yeah. And if you, the student, are feeling overloaded or stressed, because it's midterms, you adding an additional appointment of getting to know the place is just an additional thing to do. If you've already connected with them during the time where you're not stressed out schools just beginning, then it's, it's gonna be a little easier for you won't feel like such a hurdle.Marcia Morris, MD 18:48 That's absolutely true. Yeah. Hannah Choi 18:51 So speaking of depression and anxiety, do you are you and COVID are you seeing a difference? Pre and Post COVID?Marcia Morris, MD 19:00 Well, yes, absolutely. And but what's been interesting and unfortunate is the trend has been upwards even before COVID. But in 2020, there's a national survey called the Healthy Mind study that's been tracking rates of depression and anxiety on college campuses. And so, in 2021, the study found that 41% of students screened positive for depression. And that's what's actually high number and 34% for anxiety. It uses a screening test. And again, the students who might take the survey perhaps they might have more issues anyways, but yeah, nonetheless, the trend has been upward. And the rate that is that rate for depression is double what it was in 2014, and the rate of anxiety is up by 50%. So that's a huge, huge increase. And we actually, I worked with a research group and we did a study that showed the rate of depression combined with anxiety, like having both. We use Healthy Minds data, by the way, but it has doubled since 2013. So, so and so we see more students experiencing the symptoms. It's not just happening in college, though we've there's been an increase of depression and anxiety and high school, but it is. So the COVID certainly made things harder. And I know it's a sign of the times there are stressful things going on in the Yeah, yeah, the economy. And COVID was just hard for everyone. But there's hope people can feel better. They can do therapy, they can, if needed, take medication, they can exercise, it's not going to cure depression, but it certainly helps really. I was gonna say one other thing, though, related to the depression and anxiety. I think the biggest problem of COVID was the social isolation where kids were, for safety reasons. And we didn't know how to handle COVID like students, high school and college students were often isolated. And that in that instance, their social skills fell behind. They were lonely loneliness can increase anxiety and depression. And what's interesting is now they're back. They're in class, they're interacting. But they're having some more anxiety about the interactions. It feels different. And I think it's the same for people outside of college.Hannah Choi 21:47 Oh, absolutelyMarcia Morris, MD 21:48 We're all adjusting. So but so, I'm a big supporter of therapy, individual, group therapy. And I think I want to encourage students to take advantage of those resources, whether it's on campus or off campus to deal with any, like strong feelings of depression and anxiety. And that would be like the first line of treatment before going to medication. Yeah.Hannah Choi 22:15 Yeah. And and every campus out there is going to have some kind of support center for students. And it can be hard to take that first step of making the phone call or going and walking in the door, but or maybe it's virtual, maybe it can be held virtually now. Do you guys do virtual, which can make it easier?Marcia Morris, MD 22:39 Yes. During the, during the first year of the COVID pandemic, I was doing 100% virtual psychiatry, working from home. Yeah, I'm back in the office. But what is very interesting to me, is that a lot of students like the virtual, you're good at technology, if they don't want to drive across to the apartment and deal with parking. Yeah, they might be. I sometimes work with medical students, they're on rotations. They can go into an office and do their session and then go back to work. In my opinion that telehealth has been a silver lining of the pandemic where we've we've improved those resources.Hannah Choi 23:25 So if a student or if a parent feels like their child, or a student feels like they want to take advantage of therapy on campus, who would be their first person to go to?Marcia Morris, MD 23:39 They should call the counseling center on campus directly. And then they would generally they either might speak with someone on the phone or see someone. And what's happened on a lot of campuses, the therapy is tended to be more short term. It does vary from campus to campus, so some will do long term therapy. So this, the student needs to maybe go on the website, see what the services are, and decide what what they need. So it might be doing some short term therapy on campus in transitioning off campus or doing a telehealth kind of therapy or psychiatry. I like one of the things I like about my job on campus in particular is I get to see students from freshman year and is through. Yeah, it was psychiatry, it's hard to do short term treatment because they might be on medicine for a while, right. So so we really they really do need, you know, consistent follow up. But I do think also some students would benefit from long term therapy and I would like to see campuses make that more available to students. I know the resources are limited and they're being stretched, but I think it's so important for young adults to get therapy early on to prevent problems getting more serious. So I'd like to see more access to both therapy and psychiatry on campus. And if not on campus, and even through through community mental health centers with affordable resources, I think, nationally, we need to really get young adult mental health improved.Hannah Choi 25:23 Absolutely, I completely agree. Marcia Morris, MD 25:26 But, but parents can get involved in trying to figure out what where the resources are. And because it's, if you're depressed, it's hard to kind of work through situations. And the other thing I wanted to mention is a lot of campuses have a case manager, who might be may or may not be a social worker, but they can cut, they can help the student connect with resources. Sometimes the case manager is in the counseling center. Sometimes it's might be in the Dean of Students Office. But there's each campus runs a different site, it's very, very as you work varies tremendously. But if you need to find a helper to connect you, that's the key to and the parent can be critical in that process.Hannah Choi 26:15 And so you mentioned medication, how does? How do how do medications come into play here, and how can parents support their child if they either are on medication already, or might need to look, go down that path.Marcia Morris, MD 26:30 One way they can support the students is if they're coming to school on medicine, to try to facilitate them having continuous treatment, because one of the worst things that can happen, especially with antidepressants is stopping the medicine. Right? If someone wants to come off of a medicine, they need to taper slowly and work with a provider. So continuity of care is extremely important when they're coming to college. The other issue is the sometimes parents have doubts about the need for medicine, or they worry about side effects. And with antidepressants, by the way, there is a blackbox warning, talking about increased risk of suicidal behavior. Teenagers up until 25. The study showed that the concerning time is really under 18. But nonetheless, occasionally, when a young adult starts any antidepressant they can have kind of new suicidal thinking. So the important thing is, let's say a parent is said I don't want says to the child, I really feel uncomfortable with you starting any antidepressant, it's worthwhile to ask the child to say, you know, let's all meet with the psychiatrist so I can learn about how these medicines work. And know like we have an on-call system. So if the students having a problem, they can reach us, we're not just going to hand them a medicine and say there you go! We don't do that. But what we do do is that we do have follow up visits with the student and more at the beginning to see how are you feeling on this medicine? Are you having side effects? Is this the right dose, and I increase medicine very slowly, because you do not want to cause side effects in college students affecting concentration or energy level. So So parents, if they're having worries about the medicine, or even if they feel the student is not doing well, on the medicine can say, I want you to let the psychiatrist know that you need you need to call your psychiatrist or I'd love to meet with you and this psychiatrist because I'm observing things that concern me. But again, don't stop the medicine.Hannah Choi 28:50 That's really, that's the takeaway. And then that reminds me of like, I had a client who one thing that we were working on was making sure that he had reminders and a system to help him remember to get his refill, so that that wouldn't happen. And so that can be something that has to be learned to by the student.Marcia Morris, MD 29:14 And and you're bringing up, right. And also in the past, the parents might have picked up. The student has to, and there's an issue coming up now and hopefully it's getting better, but there's an Adderall. Sure. Yeah,Hannah Choi 29:28 I read about that. Yeah. Marcia Morris, MD 29:30 So what we're doing now with students is we're saying make sure you fill the prescription right on time. And then sometimes we end up calling around to pharmacies to see where they haven't. I hope that's gonna get better soon. And what we usually are able to find it's at somewhere, but that can be a challenge. And so let's say a student goes to the pharmacy and they don't have the Adderall they need to call the psychiatrist and sometimes there's a psychiatric nurse practitioner and my thought, like, if you need to call the clinic and say, I'm facing this challenge do I've called a few pharmacies, they don't have it, can you tell me where to go? Or what to do?Hannah Choi 30:15 Yeah. And so that's something that comes up a lot for college students is learning how to ask for help take advantage of resources. And it's and it's okay to ask for help. And there are people out there that really want to support you. So that's a good example of you might have to do that.Marcia Morris, MD 30:34 Yeah, right. And, and even for my patients, sometimes, though, they might be having a side effect. But they might wait to tell me until the next appointment, I said, you can feel free to call and we've structured our clinics. So nurses will take the preliminary call and then let let us know if there's something serious going on. So you know, we tried, we try to, you know, have a team of resources, we even train our support staff to kind of figure out where to triage different calls. That's good. And yeah, we have a really, I'm really happy with the team I work with there. It's it's a very caring team. And that's also Yeah, important to make sure your student is working with a group of people or one person who seems to, you know, care.Hannah Choi 31:20 Yeah. And then that goes back again to getting in early and meeting with the people in that office and getting to know that team and having them get to know you and your child and making sure that you that they are familiar with your case. And it can just really help in times of crisis, I imagine definitely.Marcia Morris, MD 31:42 I will add one more last thing about medicine, for antidepressants, which actually treat both depression and anxiety. The question often is asked, How long will my child be on this medicine, it's pretty hard to predict. But I can say that I've had students who, let's say, have pretty bad anxiety and depression. And they do a good course of what we call cognitive behavioral therapy, which is the gold standard treatment for depression and anxiety. And sometimes after a good course of therapy and making life changes, like finding the right major, finding the right friend group, they find they can taper off of the medicine, but with the help of a psychiatrist, and I've seen that happen. The important thing is, though, generally, if someone's on an antidepressant, they they stay on it for approximately nine months to a year, because that's the timeframe it takes to have a full recovery, particularly from depression. Okay, so, so but but it doesn't have to mean forever. It really doesn't. Because I know, and I'm sorry about that. Hannah Choi 31:42 Yeah, I was gonna say that I'm sure that's comforting to parents who are concerned about their child being on medication, that it's not a forever thing. Marcia Morris, MD 32:37 And the only time it might, it's might be forever as if someone has a more severe mental health problem, like severe bipolar disorder. Sometimes that requires lifelong medicine. And that's about 1% of the population, but, but when people do well, you can keep them on lower doses, and they'll have fewer side effects and utilize therapy along with it, though, you can do it the way in that people can function and not feel overmedicated.Hannah Choi 33:40 Yeah, that's good. Yeah, find like, again, finding that balance, and making sure that the choices that the life choices that they're making, in addition to medication are also being supportive, which reminds me you just said something about a friend group. And it reminds me of a client of mine once who had a friend group that that was, was not a healthy friend group for her. And, and so and so she changed her friend group and now and you know, and then ended up having a much better experience. And that makes me think about the social experience of kids in college. And how important that is,Marcia Morris, MD 34:20 It is equally important to the academic experience is all about your social development, deciding which friends you want to hang out deciding which romantic partners you want to be with, and learn and learning how to deal deal with people in difficult situations. And having fun, I mean, college should be fun, too. It shouldn't be a total grind. It is hard. I mean I I studied pretty hard in college, but I also had some fun. And so it's important for students to find the activities they enjoy. It might be intramural sports, it might be going to to church or temple or a mosque, it, it might be. I'm trying to think of the interesting groups, I think there was an acrobatics group one time. You know, like,Hannah Choi 35:13 There's something for everyone,Marcia Morris, MD 35:15 Some of the clubs, but but it you have to find something, it's important to have fun. And that's, that's, it's just part of life, we should all have fun. But maybe do your studying during the weekend, have fun on the weekends, don't have fun, every won't be able to you know, pass your classes. School should be fun. I think the academic part there should be joy in the academics too. And it's it's important to find what you really like. And so if you're, you know, kind of pre med and you're think that's what I should do, but you say, I really liked this. It's a long, four years undergrad and four years of medical school and four years of residency to like,Hannah Choi 36:00 yeah, that's a long time. It's really,Marcia Morris, MD 36:03 But it's really important to find things you enjoy. And I think parents worry of my kid majors in English or history, they're not going to get a job. But in reality, kids get jobs doing social media for companies after graduation when they're majoring in English. It's so interesting, all the different things they do post graduation, but I think it's important to find a major you enjoy it, but still go to a Career Resource Center started. Yeah, as a sophomore beginning of junior year and start planning. Okay, I love this major. But here's I'm also going to think about a job after school. Or maybe it might be graduate school.Hannah Choi 36:43 Yeah, I was just thinking, Gosh, I don't think I went to the Career Center once when I should have done that. I'm very happy with my, my career, how it all worked out.Marcia Morris, MD 36:53 Imagine, you know, with the experience I have working with students with my kids, I said you need to go found me a little too much sometimes, but it kind of helped to you. In terms of your that you have this resource on your campus? Use it take advantage of it.Hannah Choi 37:11 Yeah, yep. I, whenever I start working with a college student, I always say to them, okay, yes, you're in, you're in college for academics. But let's make it so that your academics are, you know, as not easy as possible. But let's figure out ways systems, let's build systems, so that you have more time for your socializing, because you're right. I mean, yes, college is about academics, but it really is also about finding about who you are as a person, and learning social skills and learning the kind of people that you'd like to be around and the kind of people you need to avoid, and learning how to ask for help and become part of a group and how to function in a group. And you can't learn all that if you just do the academic. And so you need to leave time for the, that social aspect. Marcia Morris, MD 37:46 And studies actually, so show that a sense of social belonging on campus is correlated with better grades. So parents who were worried about that say, yeah, they might actually say have time to restore themselves and have some fun. They might do better academically.Hannah Choi 38:24 Yes, yes. Yep. And that's why it's so and also how you said, the adding joy to your academics, and finding something that works for you. Yes, you're gonna have to take classes that that are in your major, that that don't work for you. But if you can build systems, and figure out the tools and the strategies that you need to use to make it more bearable to get through those classes, take advantage of your resources can just make it everything so much more enjoyable. Yeah, great. Well, thank you so much. Is there anything else that you'd like to add that we didn't cover today?Marcia Morris, MD 39:01 Yes, one one last thing. When your child is applying to colleges, again, take a close look and see what kind of what kind of coping skills they have where they thrive. Because some kid I have, I have one child who went to a small private college I have another tiles we went to a large state school because their needs were different. And they both they thrived in the those settings they were the right settings for them. So that's important as you're in that you can you know often work with the guidance counselor at school it's now popular and a high hire people to help with the whole application process. But if you do hire someone, find someone who's not just looking at all the best school your kid will get. Yeah, really look at your child and see where they're going to thrive. And um, the the last so I'm talking about kind of getting into school and I just also want to talk About the exit from school that yeah, that can be tricky time too. And sometimes the challenge is some kinds of classes for certain majors like engineering can get super hard at the very end, there might be a design project where you have to develop this whole system. And so that's a time to check in with your child to and see how they're doing. Because for some kids that last year can be pretty stressful, stressful, and there can be some tough classes to get into. And the other stress is for kids who haven't figured out what they want, right? Might want to go to medical school, but haven't fulfilled the requirements, help your child calm down and say, Listen, you can do a gap year you can apply to med school or another graduate school, you don't have to go go straight to grad school. So kind of paying attention to the transition into college. And the transition out is really, those are kind of tricky times where kids might need more support.Hannah Choi 41:00 And also helping helping kids realize that you don't have to follow the sort of traditional path that, that you feel like everyone else is following and because not everyone is following it and not and that's not the right path for everyone. And yeah, and taking the time to figure out what what would be best for me and what would be best for my happiness. And I have a friend who he did two years of college, and then he took a few years off, and now he's back as a student in his later 20s. And he's loving it so much more. He's having a completely different experience than he did when he was in his late teens and early 20s. And he's so glad that he didn't follow that sort of traditional path of you know, finishing the four years. And so it's, it's, and I've heard that from multiple people.Marcia Morris, MD 41:51 Yeah, yeah. And also you have for parents take good care of yourself. Because one thing I've observed with young people, they're not going to open up to you, if they think you're stressed out, or you're going to take some deep breaths, reassure your kids, everything's gonna be okay, reassure yourself, everything's gonna be okay. But it's really important to stay calm, because your kid cares about you a lot, too, and they don't want to stress you out, but just can handle things, and you guys will work things out together.Hannah Choi 42:22 Yeah, remember, I really liked how you address that in the book about how sometimes in your book, how sometimes kids will hold off on sharing something with their parents, because they they don't want to, you know, add out a burden to them or disappoint them or anything. And, and, yeah, and so that goes back to what we were talking before about maintaining that relationship with your child and the trust and keeping that rapport. It's so important.Marcia Morris, MD 42:52 You know, and who have been through grad school and you're in grad school, and that it's interesting, because the relationships continue. It's changes a lot as kids get into their late 20s. But that parent child relationship is really important. Yeah, we got to maintain the positive relationship.Hannah Choi 43:11 Yeah, it's what I've talked about with with a number of our other guests on the podcast is how, like, different strategies to you know, keep that relationship and how just just being with your child validating, like you said earlier, and just letting them know that you're there if if they need you, and that it's okay to share. And yeah, it's, it's, it's, I keep hearing that from everyone that I'm talking to. So it's something that's worth putting effort into and trying so. Well, thank you so much. It's just been a great conversation full of really good ideas. And I feel like there's a lot of like actionable advice in there for people. So yeah. And where can where can you mentioned a little bit in the beginning, but where can our listeners find you?Marcia Morris, MD 44:01 Well, I have a website, and my name is spelled Marcia M-a-r-c-i-a, but MarciaMorrismd.com. And my book, the campus cure is available on Amazon and other websites. But it's easiest to get it through Amazon. And I'm also if you Google college wellness Psychology Today, you can see my blog, I'm having a new blog coming out and it probably this weekend called "Dear College Student, You Deserve to Be Happy. You know, I want college students to be able to find joy in their experience, even though times are challenging right now.Hannah Choi 44:46 That's wonderful. Yeah. Life is life is more fun with joy in it. Yes. All right. Well, thank you, Marcia.Marcia Morris, MD 44:53 Right. It's great talking with you, Hannah.Hannah Choi 44:56 Yes, you too. And That's our show for today. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to Marcia's resources, plus some more that I found to share with you. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen, I hope you found my conversation with Marcia helpful. I know I will be listening again when it's time for my daughter to go off to college. We hope to help as many people as we can with the important conversations we have on focus forward. So please share our podcast with your colleagues, your friends and your family. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listeningTranscribed by https://otter.ai

On this week's episode, I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Sherrie All, who is a neuropsychologist who specializes in memory. She and her colleagues at the Centers for Cognitive Wellness in Chicago and the D.C. area support people who have memory challenges or are experiencing cognitive decline. Sherrie also wrote a book (which you’ll hear me gush about) called the Neuroscience of Memory. This topic is especially interesting to me because working memory is one of the core Executive Functions we use everyday. My own working memory is my biggest EF achilles heel, which is probably why math and I don’t get along and why I can’t go to the store without a list because I’ll walk out with lots of stuff I didn’t need and maybe only a couple of the things I did. I have experienced a lot of frustration and disappointment in my life because of it. But, over the years, I’ve learned what strategies help me the most. Talking with Sherrie helped me understand that it’s okay to use these external resources to remember things during the day and that there are concrete things we can do to improve our brain health, which in turn, supports our memory. Listen in to learn more about memory, the brain, and what we can do to help ourselves to live independently as long as we possibly can.Here are some resources related to our conversation: Learn more about Dr. Sherrie AllCenters for Cognitive WellnessSherrie All, PhDThe Neuroscience of Memory by Sherrie All, PhDLearn More About MemoryWorking Memory Underpins Cognitive Development, Learning, and EducationMemory - Harvard HealthCognitive Health and Older Adults | National Institute on AgingWorking Memory: Take Note of Your Child’s ChallengesHow to Memorize More Effectively (When Technology is Not an Option!)Memorization Strategies – Learning Center at UNC7 Ways to Retain More of Every Book You Read by James ClearTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18I am so excited to bring you today's episode, I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Sherrie All who is a neuropsychologist who specializes in memory. She and her colleagues at the Centers for Cognitive Wellness in Chicago and the DC area support people who have memory challenges or are experiencing cognitive decline. Sherrie also wrote a book, which you'll hear me gush about, called the Neuroscience of Memory. And this topic is especially interesting to me, because working memory is one of the executive function skills that we use pretty much all the time every single day. Working memory is the skill we use to hold information in our minds long enough to do something with it. If you run into the grocery store for just a few items, and don't bring a list, you'll use your working memory to recall that information. When you meet someone new, your working memory helps you remember their name. And if you're learning a new math formula, your working memory helps you remember the steps. My own memory has a pretty limited capacity, which is probably why math and I don't get along, why I accidentally called my friend's husband "Steve" when his name is actually Corey. And why I can't go to the store without a list because I'll walk out with lots of stuff I didn't need and maybe only a couple of the things I did. I have experienced a lot of frustration and disappointment in my life because of it. But over the years, I've learned what strategies helped me the most and talking with Sherrie really helped me understand that it's okay to use these external resources to help you remember things during the day. And that there are concrete things that we can do to improve our brain health, which in turn supports our memory. So keep listening to learn more about memory and brains and what we can do to help ourselves to live independently longer. Hannah Choi 02:13Hi, Sherrie, thanks so much for joining me.Sherrie All, PhD 02:16Thanks, Hannah. It's my pleasure. I'm so excited to be on this podcast with you.Hannah Choi 02:21I have I have a very, very vested interest in memory because mine is terrible, has always been terrible. I had the nickname of Forgetful Hannah when I was a child. But I think it's genetic. Because my parents don't remember calling me that. I remember though, I remember. So I am so excited about this conversation because of that. I'm basically ready to walk away with a better memory. So I hope you're gonna fix me. Sherrie All, PhD 02:52Oh. I'll do my best. Hannah Choi 02:56Okay. I did read your book though. And, and I I'm like a total nerd about it. Now I'm telling basically everyone I know, my poor family, I keep texting them like, Okay, you have to walk six to nine miles per day. And you have to learn new things. Just like telling them all the things that they have to do. So thank you for that book. Yeah, yeah. For our listeners. I will put all the info about her about Sherrie's book in the show notes soSherrie All, PhD 03:25But it's six to nine miles a week. Hannah Choi 03:27Oh, I mean a week not a day. Oh, yeah, let's clarify that listeners you did not have to walk six to nine miles a day,Sherrie All, PhD 03:35People jumping up and running to the treadmill. Six to nine miles a day is helpful, too.Hannah Choi 03:43It's really time consuming too, so. Alright, so could you introduce yourself a little bit for us?Sherrie All, PhD 03:51Of course yeah. I'm Dr. Sherrie All. I am neuropsychologist by background and I really developed more of an interest in cognitive rehab rehabilitation kind of through my training. I don't know if you if your listeners know this, but neuropsychology as a field has a long about a centuries old history of telling people what's wrong with their brain and neuropsychologist are really good at doing that. And it's a lovely field and it's helping lots and lots of people. But I thought that neuropsychologist did more work in actually helping people improve their memories when I was going through graduate school and, and so when I learned what a neuropsychologist did was like, "Okay, great. Now what do we do about it?" And supervisors were kind of like yeah, we don't really do that so much. And so so it was able to really kind of carve out a some training for myself in in cognitive rehabilitation and I've made it my professional mission to really take a lot of the cognitive improvement strategies that have been living in sort of the ivory tower into the private practice space. And so, exactly 10 years ago, I opened a group practice, which is now called the Centers for Cognitive Wellness. It used to be Chicago Center for Cognitive Wellness, but we've actually expanded. And we actually celebrated our 10th anniversary last night, and cool. And really with that mission of providing kind of the what's next for people after they've been diagnosed with a cognitive decline. And we've worked mainly in the adult space for the last 10 years, we're starting to work more now with kids. But it was really important to me to work with adults initially, because there are a lot of tutoring and support services for kids. Not a lot of stuff available for adults. And so, so we do psychotherapy and cognitive rehabilitation that's sort of mixed into a psychotherapy setting. We're all mental health providers, and I have a team of 12 clinicians, and we just expanded into the DC area.Hannah Choi 06:07So exciting!Sherrie All, PhD 06:08Yeah, so we're just kind of helping people help their brains and, and then I was able to fulfill kind of a lifelong goal of publishing my first book, the Neuroscience of Memory, that you're talking so fondly about it, which is a self help workbook, that is really, you know, designed to help anybody with a brain improve their memory skills, both now and as you get older, and, but also a secondary audience for clinicians to use. And we're actually using that as a tool, it came out last July, July 2021. And I hear weekly from my clinicians are like I've got, I sold another one of your books, and we've gotten using your books, they really liked this part. And they liked that part. And so that's always really nice to hear. So it's, it's easy to kind of use with clients as they, because it's got lots of different exercises in there to help help you implement the skills and, and so we're using it as kind of a treatment tool as well,Hannah Choi 07:12I'm glad you understand the brain so that you can put this good work into it.Sherrie All, PhD 07:16Well, and I think it's important to try to for all of us to understand our brains. And that's one of my goals in the book is to help people understand how memory works. Because we know that when you understand how your brain works, you're better at operating it. And so so it is a real treat to be able to kind of take that deep dive learning and then try to put that into like plain language and sort of spread that out. Because it's important for all of us to have at least some fundamental understanding about how memory works, because then you can get better at operating it. And, and then also just to really save people from a lot of this so much anxiety, right? And there's a lot of anxiety about memory loss at every, really at like the whole lifespan, especially in adulthood. But But kids or kids are hard on themselves about their brains, too. And, and so, you know, we're way too hard on ourselves about our memories. And, and so I think that if people do understand that, like forgetting is normal, and you do need strategies, then maybe we can start to kind of dial down some of that overall anxiety. And because the anxiety makes your memory worse to like in the short term, and in the long term. Yes. Oh, like, Yeah, let's let's just be like, let's be a little kinder to ourselves and take down the temperature a little bit, right?Hannah Choi 08:53Yeah, yeah. And so like, when you're when your stress hormones and other brain thing, like when your stress hormones kick in, you're your executive function skills are like the first things to go. So that makes sense that your memory would be compromised if you are stressed. So if you're walking around stressed all the time, that's gonna make it harder.Sherrie All, PhD 09:14Yeah, you can't remember what you didn't pay attention to. And and, and so I mean, attention is really like the gateway to memory. And so attention completely gets knocked out, right? If you if you're in kind of that limbic hijack you literally the blood flow goes away from your prefrontal cortex, the thinking part of your brain where you focus and pay attention to things and it and it just goes to like the survivalistic parts of your brain and, and so you can't get focus, you can't pay attention and then then you're not going to remember that whatever that thing was, right? And so, so yeah, so it's important for us to all just kind of like take a breath.Hannah Choi 09:59So Oh, that's what you just something that you just said, makes me think I, when I was reading your book, you said your memory is only as good as your attention. And I was like, "shut up". I know that. (laughter) But now you're gonna have to make me now you're gonna make me pay more attention. It was so funny when I first read that I was like, ah, ah, I know that. But now I see her. Now I see it in writing. So lots of people, I mean, lots of people, regardless of their ADHD status, lots of people have, you know, challenges with attention depending on the situation, right? Or depending on how stressed you are, or what time of day it is or what situation you're in. And so can you talk a little bit more about about that and why you said that sentence that was only as good as your attention.Sherrie All, PhD 11:01It's gratifying to hear a reaction like that. I treat other authors exactly the same way. Oh, the hell you sayHannah Choi 11:14But, I'm glad you said it. Okay, cuz it's true. Sherrie All, PhD 11:17Yeah, it was a hard. It's a hard truth. Right?Hannah Choi 11:19It was. Yes, exactly. It was a hard truth that needed to that I needed to hear and that everyone else needs to hear it too.Sherrie All, PhD 11:26Yeah, of course. Because I mean, well, let's just think about it. I mean, it's simple mechanics. Your brain stores information, like memory is like the storage of information that gets into your brain. Right? That attention is the gateway, you cannot expect yourself to remember things that you didn't notice in the first place. kind of simple. Um, and, and so, one thing I like to kind of talk about is that, like, I use this analogy of my husband. This, you know, it's been a while now, it's probably been about 15 years since this happened. But remember, when like flat screen TVs were coming out, like the plasma TVs and, and the high definition and he like, got a second job, because you know, they weren't cheap back there were like, several $1,000, right. And so you get a second job, he saves up a bunch of money, he buys the first plasma TV, and he sticks it on the wall. And he plugs it into our satellite service. And an end, the picture is garbage. It is really, really terrible. And we're like, what, what's the deal? Like, this is supposed to be like an amazing picture. It's high definition. So we call up the satellite company. And they're like, Oh, you got a new high definition television? Well, yeah, you need to pay like an extra $5 a month to get the high definition signal, you're not getting the high definition signal. And, and that's really sort of how I think about like attention and memory, that like memories, like the high def TV, right that it but it has to have a high def signal coming into it for it to function correctly. And so so all of the strategies that we know for improving attention are going to improve memory kind of down the line, because you're getting in higher quality data, more data, kind of coming in into your brain. So I usually will use this example when I'm talking about mindfulness and meditation, because that's what mindfulness does for you is that it allows you to kind of like widen your lens and just, you know, choose to be more aware of whatever's kind of happening in that moment. And, and so then you get higher definition data kind of coming into your, into your brain. And so, so it's just really important to remember that, like, if you were kind of like, not present or like, not there Ellen Langer, as a Harvard psychologist who has this really great quote, that, like, "when you're not there, you're not there to know that you're not there". Yeah. Like, you know, your thoughts are often in lala land, you know, you're thinking you're worrying about the future, you're ruminating about the past. You're not paying attention and you're not so you're not going to notice like what somebody said to you or what the news program said and, and so you may have to like, you know, ask for clarification back it up. That yeah, don't like Be nice to your memory. Don't expect it to remember things that that you didn't notice in the first place. It just yeah, that way.Hannah Choi 14:50Do you think that the lifestyle that people live and societal impact of maybe you know, social media and just How quickly information is passed to us? Do you think any of that has impacted people's perceptions that they have memory problems? When maybe when we lived like a simpler life when there were like less demands on us or less information coming in all the time? Do you think that that has increased?Sherrie All, PhD 15:20I mean, I've felt it, I don't know. I can't, I can't speak to the data on this necessarily, you know, but I think anecdotally, like, there's, there's some actually some really, one thing I have looked into, because one thing I noticed kind of early on, when I started in private practice, and that, you know, I have this habit of opening like, way too many tabs on my right, and, and then and then having to switch it. So So in neuropsychology, we call it set shifting, that if you're having to switch your attention from one to the other, you know, that colloquially, we call it multitasking. And, and it actually, there are some studies to show that that actually takes a really big toll on your performance, that they've done it with college students where they do two tasks, then their processing speed goes down by about the same as like being high on pot. And there's a big cost to kind of like switching back and forth. And but but even with, like computer usage, it's sort of this, the girls also described this thing called, like, the threshold effect, that when you cross over a threshold, like from one room to the other, that sometimes your your memory will kind of reset in and so you'll lose whatever that thing is that you are kind of holding in your working memory, it'll, it'll just kind of go away. And I'll notice that kind of on my computer screen, you know, it'd be like, I'm going to my email to look for this thing. And then I get to my email and like, something will distract me, right. And then it's like, what was that thing? You know? And so, you know, with technology, social media, like we're getting a small bits, right, like that. We're, we're switching very quickly, on a on a really regular basis. I'm sure that that takes a toll on like, sustained attention. Yeah, I think kind of the overall stress level. But the other thing that I wanted to say, kind of related to your question is that, you know, it's some of the stuff we're learning about Instagram and eating disorders and suicide. And you know, that a lot of it's perfectionism, right? And that, so I see a lot of people who suffer from cognitive perfectionism. You know, and even just socially, you know, that when people find out that I'm a memory expert, and then and then they'll find out, you know, so example of something I forgot. They're like, Oh,Hannah Choi 17:59Do you ever lie about your job? Sherrie All, PhD 18:00So sometimes I do. Hannah Choi 18:03Like "I'm in finance".Sherrie All, PhD 18:04I was at a party recently, and I made everybody else tell me what they did before I told him what I did, right. Hannah Choi 18:15That's awesome. Sherrie All, PhD 18:17But again, like, we were hard on our memories, we kind of expect it to be perfect. But the other thing is that the cost of having a bad memory is is real. In and so I don't think that people's fears are unwarranted because, you know, kind of back to your question about simpler society. You know, if you were a farmer, and you had kind of this, you did the same routine, day after day, year after year, in the cost of like, kind of losing your cognitive skills isn't quite as big as what it is for, like a tech industry. Yeah. Right. Your job is to write code. And then you can't focus anymore, you're making costly mistakes, then, you know, our incomes are really dependent on our cognitive skills now. Yeah. And then one other thing that I think is worth noting about sort of the collective fear about cognition is that rates of dementia are legitimately increasing. With the baby boomers turning 65 and aging into we're going to see an increase in the prevalence of dementia. Unlike anything that's ever happened in human history, it's going to see a lot more examples of it where people are struggling because of cognitive decline. And I think that in some, it's, it's happening on an individual level to more and more people where they're seeing family members, you know, loved ones like their old football coach, you know, Really declining and so, so people, you know, people, understandably are going to be really scared about that too.Hannah Choi 20:07Right, the more examples that they have of it in their lives, the more fear they will feel themselves.Sherrie All, PhD 20:13Yeah. And we're seeing it with concussions, right with all the media attention put on this chronic traumatic encephalopathy that, that, you know, it's pathology that we've seen in the brains of retired NFL players. But it trickles down into where, where people have kind of a misunderstanding about concussion recovery. And if they have one concussion, then they become very fearful. They think it's easy to understand that you would, by watching all the media coverage about these concussions and this neuro pathological disorder that can that can come from that, that people will automatically assume it's not a huge mental leap to think, oh, no, I bumped my head. And now I've lit the fuse on a neuro degenerative disease. That's not really the case. We don't have those kinds of links between like, a regular concussion, you know, for everyday people like ourselves, you know, compared to what's happening to these professional athletes. We all need to remember that? We're not NFL players, right? I am not an NFL player.Hannah Choi 21:33Neither am I. Yeah. I can't even watch football. Sherrie All, PhD 21:38Like, we expect we expect people to get better over time, likeHannah Choi 21:43That's good to hearSherrie All, PhD 21:45Even from more serious brain injuries, people get better. Not all the way sometimes, like with a serious brain injury. But, um, but if you, you know, if you didn't lose consciousness, and, you know, you didn't have like, extended periods of what we call post traumatic amnesia, or like, extreme mental confusion for like, a really long period of time, then, you know, odds are that you're gonna get better. And, but But what you believe about your memory makes a big difference.Hannah Choi 22:17Yeah. Right. And if you Yeah, and I think like, if we look, if we look we instead of looking for, we don't notice all the times, we do remember something, we just pay attention to the times that we don't, we look for those negative cases. What about all of this, like, I'm wearing clothes. So obviously, I remembered something today.Hannah Choi 22:20You remembered at least one thing todayHannah Choi 22:27That that's something that I've been working on myself is like, changing my identity. So I've always thought of myself, I mean, like, I was Forgetful Hannah. And so now I'm trying to change my identity. It's very difficult because I constantly just go to that, well, I'm just a forgetful person. So it's, it's, um, it's hard work. It's hard work to do. And if any of my family and friends are listening, they're probably like, yeah, your identity has not changed. But I'm trying, I'm trying to for myself, just change that. Because maybe if I stopped believing that so much about myself, I will actually come out with a better memory than I believe that I have.Hannah Choi 23:25Right? Yeah, change the narrative. You know, yeah, exactly. saying mean things to yourself, like, Stop criticizing yourself. And you people do it with all sorts of things. You know, if you say, like, I'm bad with money, you know, then that, you know, that belief leads to behaviors, and, you know, but, but you can learn how to be better at money, you know, oh, you know, I can't, I can't exercise, you know, but then you start to you shift some of that, and it like behavior and beliefs, kind of, you know, they play with each other. And, but, but they, you know, they go hand in hand. And so sometimes if you try a new behavior, then that can affect your belief. If you try to change your belief, then that can kind of lead you to a new behavior. So, it's worth doing the work because, you know, we really can rewrite those narratives.Hannah Choi 24:16Yeah, so much of so much of what I do for myself and also for my clients is, is that and so I have a question. So for myself, just speak for myself, specifically, because I'm myself and I can relate. So should I, I use a lot of strategies to help myself remember things because I know that memory is challenged for me. So I use a lot of different strategies. I use Google Tasks, Google event reminders, I have a planner I use post it notes. I put signs on the door I asked my partner, my husband to help me remember things I have people text me I mean, I have a lot of different strategies that I use. At But sometimes I feel like that's not helping my memory, it's just helping me not, it's just helping me do those things. It's not, like not like a practice to improve my actual memory. So for someone who has a challenges with memory, should is that enough or should there be additional practice to help improve my memory so that maybe I don't need to use all those tools.Sherrie All, PhD 25:31I don't think there's any evidence to date that we need to be doing anything different to specifically beef up our memory circuits. You know, I could be proven wrong with science kind of down the line. But the current state of the evidence is that there really doesn't seem to be a difference between cognitive activity, what type of cognitive activity and, and, and, and kind of preventing dementia, that like people who are cognitively active no matter what the cognitive activity is, it can be attention training, it could be processing speed, it could be problem solving, it could be memory strategies, all of those are, you know, they all of those are pretty equal in terms of the data that if you just kind of live a cognitively stimulating life, then your your risk for dementia is is mild to moderately reduced. There are some people who would say, well, oh, this this one, you know, like, I think if there is one type of training platform that maybe has outperformed some others, it's it's more kind of in like, processing speed. And so, so that said, like, I love your systems. Yeah, and, and, and that's the stuff that we would train someone who didn't have those systems and was complaining about their performance, we would actually work to try to get them to implement those types of systems. But the people who have really exceptional memories are ones that have kind of used the strategies of like, organizing information, or using visualization strategies, or just using externalizing strategies, which, you know, you use a lot of those. And so I think the goal for Functional Independence is whatever keeps you independent and doing a good job. Right. And so if you need to externalize those things, great. Right? Like, because that's what's gonna keep you you know, independent performing your job. Doing a good job, getting promoted.Hannah Choi 27:59Doing a Podcast, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, that that is great to hear. Because, I mean, that's what I do as an executive function coach is I you know, exactly that, right. We teach people strategies to level the playing field in whatever area, they feel challenged. And soSherrie All, PhD 28:21that's why we love working with the beyond booksmart executive function coaches, too, because you guys are so great at like, helping our clients implement, you know, a lot of these daily functioning strategies. And, and then there's more to it too, because if you're, if you're succeeding, then you kind of have that upward positivity spiral that's going to reduce stress. And and that's good for your brain in the long term. And then also, you know, I, I, it makes me sad, Hannah, that you actually beating yourself up about your strategies. Hannah Choi 29:05I'm not going to anymore! Sherrie All, PhD 29:06Yeah. That's kind of a layer of stress. Right like that. Hannah Choi 29:10Yeah. Right. Sherrie All, PhD 29:11Strategies. You burst out some cortisol. That's not good for your brain cells. Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. Like celebrate your strategies.Hannah Choi 29:22Okay, yeah, I'm going to and I, it feels really good to hear that because I, I don't know why, but I saw it as, like a flaw that I had to use them even though I even said to you before, like, why do people look down on on using strategies and here, I was doing that without even realizing it. And I just know that when I use those strategies, it improves everything for me, it improves. You know, my just my day to day existence. In my, my relationships with everyone, and, and my relationship with myself too, so, so I'm going to use them proudly now.Hannah Choi 30:10You're like a systems queen?Hannah Choi 30:14Well, you know, I mean I do teach people I like, I hope that I have also done that metacognition piece and figured out what works for me to know. But, what that actually reminds me what you were saying before how important that metacognition piece is, and how important it is to figure out like, how our brains work, and how, what works for us, and what doesn't work for us and why we do those things and why we don't do those other things. And it's just so important. And I feel like it, it feels like to me that that piece is not valued by everyone, because it is you're not, I don't know if I'm right. But it is not immediately valued because you are not actually producing anything when you are sitting and thinking about yourself. No, you're not. Right? You're not like creating anything, you're not making anything, but you are learning so much. And so I just hope that people recognize the value of sitting and thinking about yourself. Yeah, there's so much in there.Sherrie All, PhD 31:24And then, you know, putting those systems in place, because, I mean, it's basically like, a lot of what you're describing is like basic project management, you know, and like, I, I took a class where, you know, I had to kind of learn some project management, and I learned that I'm, like, terrible naturally, like, my natural instinct is to just like, jump right into the task, you know, and like, as a group, we're like, no, no, we're gonna, we're gonna wide now we're gonna, you know, lay out are all the steps and like, the timeline and like, oh, okay, but like, going, right? Like what you're saying, like, we put too much value on sort of the output. But if you take a step back, like when you do your, your, your task list, you're probably going to get so much more done that day, than if you hadn't if you just jumped right into the thing, because you forget all those other things like,Hannah Choi 32:27yeah, or I didn't think about like, well, let's see, I'm feeling I have a lot of energy right now. So I should do the thing that's going to be the most energy sucking and then save the other things for later or, like, I'm feeling very unmotivated right now. So I should just do that, like little things that don't take much that might make me feel better. So yeah. So yeah, so like the the same what you were just saying, like, thinking that the thinking about yourself is the same as stopping to plan a little bit before you jump in. So totally, yeah. So much value in that. So talking about strategies, what are your go to strategies for people to, to remember stuff? And I guess this can apply to anybody. I mean, a lot of us coaches work with students, but a lot of our clients are adults too. And, and I imagined that the strategies aren't really any different from between younger and older people.Sherrie All, PhD 33:22Yeah, they're pretty universal. Right? Okay, so well, because probably because I have a background in clinical neuropsychology, it's, it's important for me to first kind of diagnose the problem, right. So our strategies need to be really customized to whatever situation a person's having, right. And so, so there are kind of some universal strategies that that we can teach people. But it's, it's never a one size fits all. And, and, and so it's important to kind of match the strategy with the person, because that also, it's just not feasible. It's like, physically impossible to do all the strategies all the time. So so what I try to, you know, kind of empower my clinicians to do is to have sort of a toolbox. And I think that's kind of what beyond booksmart does a good job of too. It's like, you know, that the executive function coaches like you guys do have like a nice system and program, but but your executive function coaches have enough of kind of a toolbox to be able to kind of pick and choose to sort of match for like, Whatever, whatever the situation is. So anyway, I think go to strategies are number one, particularly when we have folks with attention problems, working memory problems, is that we try to get them to slow down a little bit. It's If they can, right, or be strategic about fast and slow, and, and so so, so will will, one of our first steps is to actually try to get them to engage in some sort of mindfulness practice. And what's nice about the world of mindfulness is that there are, you know, 50 bajillion different practices that we can, you know, choose from, because that's also not a one size fits all, there's people who really resonate with breathwork. And then there are people who love, you know, guided imagery, and then there are people, you know, you know, I think open monitoring, you know, it's sort of like, sit for one minute and just, you know, notice what's happening and be in the present moment. That can be great. For some people, I think it can be really torture for people who have attention problems and have sort of a really active Default Mode Network, where their minds are just kind of going all the time. It's what So, but, but, you know, kind of having a little bit of that cultural debate of like, okay, slow down, be present, be engaged, maybe start to notice what's happening in your body, kind of be present. Number two, would be using a lot of those externalizing interventions. So, so making lists, setting alarms, I love "can't miss reminders". This is we use a program called Cog Smart that's out of the VA system, it was originally developed for people with brain injuries and severe mental illness. And then they have a new program for people with mild cognitive impairment, which like maybe some of the earlier stages of dementia. And, and so they'll you know, put up you know, it put up like a little post it on your coffee maker that says walk the dog, you know, because you might, you might forget to walk the dog, I'm never going to forget to make coffee in the morning. So just kind of putting some of those reminders in sort of an obvious place. Another strategy they use is self-talk. And so that can kind of help you stay on target, as you're kind of going from one thing to the other. And that you kind of say, you know, I'm gonna go to the kitchen, I'm gonna get some yogurt, you know, and I'm going there, I'm gonna say, and you can say it out loud. You can say it to yourself in your head. Yogurt. Yeah. Yogurt. Yogurt. Yeah. So, so So those are some of my favorites. I think, you know, and so those are all kind of on the like, attention part of of the pathway to memory. But we also have other strategies for helping you memorize things, right. Like, and, and that's important for when the moment requires it. Like, where are you parked in a parking garage, for instance, right, like stopping and taking like a little mental snapshot and kind of rehearsing it or sort of visualizing it.Hannah Choi 38:00I loved that section of the book. It was so fun to do that, to do the list. And then to try to remember the list and then reuse the different strategies. It was very cool. Yeah, it was very convincing.Sherrie All, PhD 38:13Yeah. And so, you know, you can take some steps to get things to stick in your brain better, when that's needed. But it's not needed for everything right in. And so especially now, like, and this is something that, that we've been kind of debating in, I guess, kind of wringing your hands around since ever since humans became literate. And we just don't memorize things the same way that we used to, because we don't really have to write and so the newest iteration of that is the internet. And, and so you can even tell the difference between like Boomers and Gen Xers compared to like Millennials of like, how long I'm a Gen Xer. And I will spend a good 10 minutes trying to remember a fact about something. And my Millennial friends, like have already looked it up on their phone. Right.Hannah Choi 39:08Right. Yeah.Sherrie All, PhD 39:14Just grew up with like, you know, 10-year-old encyclopedia. Yeah.Hannah Choi 39:21Like, oh, I hope it's in the index. That's really funny.Sherrie All, PhD 39:27I mean, so that's the newest version of it, right? But as a species, we've been doing that externalizing ever since we had the ability to write things down and then go back and read them the way things are now. You don't have to memorize everything. I think you're probably going to be okay. I don't think it's causing Alzheimer's disease. The only what's causing Alzheimer's disease is that people are living way longer than they used to. You know, but so anyway, but when what when the moments right, Like when you need to memorize something like if you're an actor, and you're you have to memorize things, or you're getting a speech, or you need to, you're at a job and you need to memorize, like a certain, you know, list of steps to kind of make that automatic, then, then those those strategies can be helpful, you know, but yeah, but but I think that sometimes people assume that they have to kind of do that for everything. And then they worried because we're not doing it like we used to. It's gonna make me have Alzheimer's.Hannah Choi 40:34Okay, good to know. Not, I could be wrong,Sherrie All, PhD 40:41to always be open to being wrong. Right.Hannah Choi 40:43Right. Well, I hope you're not. So one additional thing that, that I got a very clear message in your book is that the pretty much the most important thing that we can do for our memories is exercise. And so can you talk a little bit about that?Sherrie All, PhD 41:03Yeah. So I do, I had been saying it's like the number one best thing you can do for your brain? And it probably is, although I am starting to tweak that a little bit that everything is, is memory strategies are customizable. So everybody has like a different? I think everybody actually does have like, a different probably priority. Number one. No, like, if you're a smoker, I'm gonna want you to quit smoking, before I make you get on a treadmill. I have an idea. Yeah. Like our individual, right, you know, it's Sleep, sleep is really important too. And we're learning a lot more about that. The reason that for a long time, we've been saying that exercise is the is the best strategy is because it's had the best science up to this point. And by best science, it means that we can do experiments. And so we have some really good causal data to show that when people are physically active, they get have bigger brains, the memory circuits in their brain are bigger, they grow new brain cells, and it actually increases the rate of brain cell growth. And we haven't seen that with any other type of lifestyle strategy, except for stress goes in the other direction, we know that. So the stress hormone cortisol keeps you from growing new brain cells. And, and so so, you know, managing stress may be you know, the opposite of, of, you know, kind of the same as exercise and, but, but the quality of the data is, is really, really strong. And so, so that's why we really kind of hang out, hang our hats on that one, because it lends itself to doing experiments. And, you know, whereas things like socialization,Hannah Choi 43:04It's harder to measure, harder to measureSherrie All, PhD 43:07And harder to manipulate. You know, make people get friends.Hannah Choi 43:13Just be more social. Sherrie All, PhD 43:16And like it! Hannah Choi 43:19Enjoy it don't get stressed. Meet five friends have five 10-minute conversations. measure your heart rate, or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it really shows you I mean, that's a great example for how research is really beneficial, or can be really beneficial, and why it is so important to research thingsSherrie All, PhD 43:45And also to kind of get some help. And so one of the things in the book is for people, one of the early exercises is for you to kind of gauge like what is your overall risk, right? Like where I use this brain 401k investment analogy in the book that, you know, our risk for dementia is really predicted more by how much brain cells and skills you have sort of stored in this cognitive reserve, and everybody kind of varies in those in how much reserves they have. And we can measure that by seeing how, you know, people with higher reserve have people with bigger brains have a bigger resistance to dementia. And, and that you can build your reserve throughout your life, like through these different lifestyle areas. But one of the early exercises in the book is for you to kind of do a self assessment, you kind of rate your portfolio, your brain 401k portfolio, you know, so am I, I may be doing really well in mental stimulation because I have a mentally stimulating job, but I'm not exercising a whole lot and I have a lot of stress. And so those are kind of the two areas where I need to maybe beef up my own individual efforts, right compared to somebody else, who, you know, maybe exercises a whole lot, but you know, he's just retired and it's not, you know, socializing as much as they used to maybe not learning new things and so that their own strategy is going to be different than than mine in. And so really kind of personal. It's all custom, right? We're human strengths and weaknesses, and we gotta figure it kind of focus our efforts.Hannah Choi 45:29Yeah, and that's, I guess that's, again, where that metacognition piece comes into, and really spending the time to look at your life and to look at how your memory impacts you, and how, and what areas you maybe need to, you know, like, spend more time with or, or back off on or whatever it is. So, in your book, you cover a variety of different areas like exercise, and socialization and learning new things, which are three that you've already mentioned. In addition to those, what are some others that people should consider when they're thinking about their brain health?Sherrie All, PhD 46:06So some new data that's come out about sleep is especially for the risk of Alzheimer's disease is that when when we're asleep, when you're in deep sleep, the glial cells, they're these like support cells that surround the neurons in your brain, they actually shrink by about 20%. And it allows the spinal fluid to come in and flush out toxins, oh, it's probably like the lymphatic system of the brain and clay and so it's, they call it the glymphatic system, the glial cells. And one of the things that gets flushed out is the amyloid plaque that causes Alzheimer's disease. We all make amyloid plaque and, but, but normally, it's going to be flushed out through the spinal fluid. Hannah Choi 46:58Fascinating. Sherrie All, PhD 46:59And it's only becomes problematic when it sticks in your brain and starts to kind of choke off your neurons. And so they're Matthew Walker is a neuroscientist who's written he wrote a book called Why We sleep and then he's he's runs a research lab where they are putting out papers and, and so they've actually found a correlation between people who sleep less in their 50s 60s and 70s have more amyloid plaque in their brain. We don't it's it's a correlation. So we don't know which causes which it could be that amyloid causes you to stop sleeping much or that not sleeping enough, you know, causes the amyloid to build up. But that's actually like most of our dementia prevention strategies are focused on trying to help you kind of just maintain as many neurons as you can. But this is actually a little bit more directly impacting the pathology of Alzheimer's, that, you know, if you get really good deep sleep, then, you know, you may actually be preventing the pathology of Alzheimer's like flushing that amyloid out.Hannah Choi 48:02Wow, that's so interesting.Sherrie All, PhD 48:05REM sleep is important for helping the amygdala is this little structure in your brain, that's kind of your fear detector, it's the thing that sort of sets off the fight or flight response. And it's kind of always looking out for things that it thinks might kill you. And then and then when it thinks that something might kill you, then it triggers you know, you to release all that cortisol and have those kinds of exaggerated responses. And you have the limbic hijacking, and you can't concentrate and you're, you know, you know, producing toxic chemicals to your brain cells, and you're keeping your brain from growing new brain cells. So, the amygdala if you lose one night asleep, your amygdala is 60%. more active.Hannah Choi 48:49Wow. That's not good.Sherrie All, PhD 48:56A recipe for yelling at your kid.Hannah Choi 48:58Yeah. And no wonder, right.Sherrie All, PhD 49:03And sleep is important for that kind of calming of the amygdala, most of your REM sleep later in the night, and an epic and if you have middle insomnia, if you're up for more than half an hour, the entire sleep architecture of your night sort of starts over where you don't actually won't get enough REM cycles. So you do more deep sleep early in the night. And so it's important to just try to maybe like sleep through the night. So so when we have people who talk about sleep problems, we we, as a practice, send them to a sleep center. Study. We need to know what's going on. Do you have sleep apnea? Do you have there's a cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia CBT-I that's very behaviorally based and so it's just about following kind of some simple rules to you know, make sure that you're going to bed when you're tired. And enough that you're, you know, kind of helping your body sort of reengage those natural circadian rhythms maybe not, you know, having like a caffeine curfew, not knowing what time it is at night is like a really big piece of that too, because that sticks that you go through when you make four o'clock. It's got like, two more hours.Hannah Choi 50:23Yes. You do the math, the insomnia math. Yes. My sister went through the CBT for insomnia. And it just really, really, really helped her. Sherrie All, PhD 50:36Yeah, it helped me, I did it. You know, I yeah, I got really bad insomnia during the pandemic and found out I have sleep apnea. So I went on. Yeah, and if you've ever tried CPAP, and you feel like you've tried it a few years ago, you're like, Oh, it's terrible. I can't stand it. Like, the machines are getting better and better.Hannah Choi 50:55Oh, that's good to know. Yeah. And so have you noticed? And have you noticed an impact on your on your awakening? You're Awake, awake, life,Sherrie All, PhD 51:04How I feel during the day? Yeah. One hundred percent.. Hannah Choi 51:07Yeah, that's great.Sherrie All, PhD 51:09I would walk around, like, face tired, or time focusing and have like, you know, and have kind of a hair trigger. And yeah, wait, and, and I've been able to lose it since then. But I think one of the biggest pieces, because I told this, the CBT therapist, I was like, You're not taking my phone away. It's not just I thought I was psychologist or a that makes me a really terrible patient. Right.Hannah Choi 51:37Right. Sure. I know what to do. Right? I'm only here because someone told me to.Sherrie All, PhD 51:46So, so we tell people about like, like, we'll give them information about sleep hygiene. You know, those are things like, you know, limit screens at night have, you know, that kind of stuff? I go, I go I'm not, I'm not giving up my phone. She's like, okay, that's okay. You know. So what we've devised is that because I have a really active default mode network that I think people with ADHD we're seeing, have that. And which means that when I wake up in the middle of the night, I just start thinking about all sorts of things, right. And I turn on a podcast. Like maybe right now someone is listening to us on this podcast.Hannah Choi 52:31We're happy to keep your company.Sherrie All, PhD 52:34I'll turn on a podcast, it has to be like a certain level of interesting because I'm going to fall back asleep. So maybe, maybe it's not this one.Hannah Choi 52:41Yeah, maybe it's just too engaging. They're not good for the middle of the night. Sherrie All, PhD 52:45It depends. But I have a little post it. It's a stack of post it notes that I take to my phone to cover up the clock, like, so I can turn my podcast on, but I don't know what time it is.Hannah Choi 52:58Yeah, that's so smart. I love that she told you that she let you keep it. Right. And that goes back to make the strategy work for yourself. Yeah. And, and, and it's okay. If if whatever tweak you have done to the strategy is different than what they say you should do. If it works for you, then then that's good enough. Okay. Sherrie All, PhD 53:19Yeah, it's collaborative, right? Yeah, no, none of these interventions could be to top down because people are gonna be resistant. And then they can't do it. Yeah. Right. We all have issues with authority.Hannah Choi 53:31Right. Yeah. Right. I'll just suffer instead of doing what you suggested. Well, thank you so much. This has just been such a great conversation. Is there anything else you want to add that we missed?Sherrie All, PhD 53:47Well, get the book.Hannah Choi 53:49Yes. Are sure you guys have to read this book Neuroscience of Memory by Sherrie All, Dr. Sherrie All it's so good. It's so good. And I love I just love how you wrote it. There was one thing you said like you it was a list of things that can be impacted in you. And you said you had the list. And then you said "...and stuff like that". I was like, Yes. Like you get you just wrote "and stuff like" that in a book. I was just so great. Because I feel like there's so much pressure out there to just have everything be on like super professional sounding. And that's what I want to read because that's what I can relate to. And it was just it was so accessible. Such a great book. So thank you. Sherrie All, PhD 54:34Yeah, I like to think of it as kind of like your girlfriends guide to your brain.Hannah Choi 54:37Yeah, that's what it felt like it was really it's really, really nice. So I highly recommend everybody find itSherrie All, PhD 54:44And the audio book, I got to narrate it. So you can listen to me!Hannah Choi 54:47Oh, cool.Hannah Choi 54:50That's great. You have a good voiceSherrie All, PhD 54:51And if you listen while you sleep and maybe you sleep with me.Hannah Choi 54:55I love it. And where else can our listeners find you?Sherrie All, PhD 55:01So you can find me at Sherrieall.com. That's my page that I keep for speaking and writing. And then if you want to access our clinics were at cogwellness.com. We have a location in Chicago, and then in Chevy Chase, Maryland, and hopefully some other states as we continue to grow. Because, you know, we're really passionate about helping people improve their cognition. And there are other practices that do what we do. And, you know, but, but I think that, particularly for some of the early stage dementia work, where we're one of the few people that are kind of helping people implement a lot of those recommendations from neuro psychologists. And so, you know, we just like to be able to help a lot more people. But so, so clinically, we're there for now, and but hopefully, hopefully near you soon.Hannah Choi 55:52Yeah, great. Well, thank you again, and I love I love how there are so many practical things that people can do to improve their memory and decrease or maybe not decrease, but improve the chances of living independently longer. And I love that. So thank you for all the work that you do. And I'm sure that that everyone out there that has met with you is just so with you. And your and your practitioners have been so grateful for the support. Yeah, maybe make it a little less scary, right. less scary. Yeah.Sherrie All, PhD 56:27And hire a Beyond BookSmart executive function coach. Yeah, put these things in practice.Hannah Choi 56:34Yeah. And like what we were saying earlier, you know, these, figuring out exactly what strategies are going to work for you. It is nice to have the support of someone else that has like a sort of, like a like at outset an outsider viewpoint and can help help you get out of your own head.Sherrie All, PhD 56:53Don't judge yourself for all your systems, right? Hannah Choi 56:55That's right! No judgment, this is a judgment free zone.Sherrie All, PhD 56:58That's right! Celebrate!Hannah Choi 56:59Yay. Yes, yes. I am so excited to go forth and use my strategies proudly. And I'm and I'm just going to keep continuing to spread the word that it's okay to use strategies. You do not have to remember everything on your own. Sherrie All, PhD 57:14You can't you cannot you can't. That's right. This, those five people are Sherrie All, PhD 57:18Like four or five. Hannah Choi 57:19Yeah, four, probably four. Sherrie All, PhD 57:20And they're probably probably lying anyway.Hannah Choi 57:22yeah, actually, just like quickly use some, like, they have a device in their ear. All right. Well, thank you so much.Sherrie All, PhD 57:33Likewise, this has been a pleasure. And thank you. Thank you.Hannah Choi 57:38And that's our show for today. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to all of Sherrie's resources, plus some more that I found to share with you. If you're like me and are challenged by your working memory, I really hope this episode has motivated you to find and use even more strategies that help you remember more stuff, which in turn will help you feel more confident. I know it's made a huge difference for me. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. If you like what you're hearing, please share focus forward with your colleagues and your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts, give us a boost by giving us that five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listeningEp 16_ Improve Your Memory_ Neuroscience Strategies for a He...Thu, Dec 15, 2022 10:24AM • 58:42SUMMARY KEYWORDSpeople, strategies, memory, brain, book, neuropsychologist, called, attention, dementia, learning, important, exercise, brain cells, stress, systems, helping, alzheimer, hannah, clinicians, sleepSPEAKERSSherrie All, PhD, Hannah ChoiHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18I am so excited to bring you today's episode, I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Sherrie All who is a neuropsychologist who specializes in memory. She and her colleagues at the Centers for Cognitive Wellness in Chicago and the DC area support people who have memory challenges or are experiencing cognitive decline. Sherrie also wrote a book, which you'll hear me gush about, called the Neuroscience of Memory. And this topic is especially interesting to me, because working memory is one of the executive function skills that we use pretty much all the time every single day. Working memory is the skill we use to hold information in our minds long enough to do something with it. If you run into the grocery store for just a few items, and don't bring a list, you'll use your working memory to recall that information. When you meet someone new, your working memory helps you remember their name. And if you're learning a new math formula, your working memory helps you remember the steps. My own memory has a pretty limited capacity, which is probably why math and I don't get along, why I accidentally called my friend's husband "Steve" when his name is actually Corey. And why I can't go to the store without a list because I'll walk out with lots of stuff I didn't need and maybe only a couple of the things I did. I have experienced a lot of frustration and disappointment in my life because of it. But over the years, I've learned what strategies helped me the most and talking with Sherrie really helped me understand that it's okay to use these external resources to help you remember things during the day. And that there are concrete things that we can do to improve our brain health, which in turn supports our memory. So keep listening to learn more about memory and brains and what we can do to help ourselves to live independently longer. Hannah Choi 02:13Hi, Sherrie, thanks so much for joining me.Sherrie All, PhD 02:16Thanks, Hannah. It's my pleasure. I'm so excited to be on this podcast with you.Hannah Choi 02:21I have I have a very, very vested interest in memory because mine is terrible, has always been terrible. I had the nickname of Forgetful Hannah when I was a child. But I think it's genetic. Because my parents don't remember calling me that. I remember though, I remember. So I am so excited about this conversation because of that. I'm basically ready to walk away with a better memory. So I hope you're gonna fix me. Sherrie All, PhD 02:52Oh. I'll do my best. Hannah Choi 02:56Okay. I did read your book though. And, and I I'm like a total nerd about it. Now I'm telling basically everyone I know, my poor family, I keep texting them like, Okay, you have to walk six to nine miles per day. And you have to learn new things. Just like telling them all the things that they have to do. So thank you for that book. Yeah, yeah. For our listeners. I will put all the info about her about Sherrie's book in the show notes soSherrie All, PhD 03:25But it's six to nine miles a week. Hannah Choi 03:27Oh, I mean a week not a day. Oh, yeah, let's clarify that listeners you did not have to walk six to nine miles a day,Sherrie All, PhD 03:35People jumping up and running to the treadmill. Six to nine miles a day is helpful, too.Hannah Choi 03:43It's really time consuming too, so. Alright, so could you introduce yourself a little bit for us?Sherrie All, PhD 03:51Of course yeah. I'm Dr. Sherrie All. I am neuropsychologist by background and I really developed more of an interest in cognitive rehab rehabilitation kind of through my training. I don't know if you if your listeners know this, but neuropsychology as a field has a long about a centuries old history of telling people what's wrong with their brain and neuropsychologist are really good at doing that. And it's a lovely field and it's helping lots and lots of people. But I thought that neuropsychologist did more work in actually helping people improve their memories when I was going through graduate school and, and so when I learned what a neuropsychologist did was like, "Okay, great. Now what do we do about it?" And supervisors were kind of like yeah, we don't really do that so much. And so so it was able to really kind of carve out a some training for myself in in cognitive rehabilitation and I've made it my professional mission to really take a lot of the cognitive improvement strategies that have been living in sort of the ivory tower into the private practice space. And so, exactly 10 years ago, I opened a group practice, which is now called the Centers for Cognitive Wellness. It used to be Chicago Center for Cognitive Wellness, but we've actually expanded. And we actually celebrated our 10th anniversary last night, and cool. And really with that mission of providing kind of the what's next for people after they've been diagnosed with a cognitive decline. And we've worked mainly in the adult space for the last 10 years, we're starting to work more now with kids. But it was really important to me to work with adults initially, because there are a lot of tutoring and support services for kids. Not a lot of stuff available for adults. And so, so we do psychotherapy and cognitive rehabilitation that's sort of mixed into a psychotherapy setting. We're all mental health providers, and I have a team of 12 clinicians, and we just expanded into the DC area.Hannah Choi 06:07So exciting!Sherrie All, PhD 06:08Yeah, so we're just kind of helping people help their brains and, and then I was able to fulfill kind of a lifelong goal of publishing my first book, the Neuroscience of Memory, that you're talking so fondly about it, which is a self help workbook, that is really, you know, designed to help anybody with a brain improve their memory skills, both now and as you get older, and, but also a secondary audience for clinicians to use. And we're actually using that as a tool, it came out last July, July 2021. And I hear weekly from my clinicians are like I've got, I sold another one of your books, and we've gotten using your books, they really liked this part. And they liked that part. And so that's always really nice to hear. So it's, it's easy to kind of use with clients as they, because it's got lots of different exercises in there to help help you implement the skills and, and so we're using it as kind of a treatment tool as well,Hannah Choi 07:12I'm glad you understand the brain so that you can put this good work into it.Sherrie All, PhD 07:16Well, and I think it's important to try to for all of us to understand our brains. And that's one of my goals in the book is to help people understand how memory works. Because we know that when you understand how your brain works, you're better at operating it. And so so it is a real treat to be able to kind of take that deep dive learning and then try to put that into like plain language and sort of spread that out. Because it's important for all of us to have at least some fundamental understanding about how memory works, because then you can get better at operating it. And, and then also just to really save people from a lot of this so much anxiety, right? And there's a lot of anxiety about memory loss at every, really at like the whole lifespan, especially in adulthood. But But kids or kids are hard on themselves about their brains, too. And, and so, you know, we're way too hard on ourselves about our memories. And, and so I think that if people do understand that, like forgetting is normal, and you do need strategies, then maybe we can start to kind of dial down some of that overall anxiety. And because the anxiety makes your memory worse to like in the short term, and in the long term. Yes. Oh, like, Yeah, let's let's just be like, let's be a little kinder to ourselves and take down the temperature a little bit, right?Hannah Choi 08:53Yeah, yeah. And so like, when you're when your stress hormones and other brain thing, like when your stress hormones kick in, you're your executive function skills are like the first things to go. So that makes sense that your memory would be compromised if you are stressed. So if you're walking around stressed all the time, that's gonna make it harder.Sherrie All, PhD 09:14Yeah, you can't remember what you didn't pay attention to. And and, and so I mean, attention is really like the gateway to memory. And so attention completely gets knocked out, right? If you if you're in kind of that limbic hijack you literally the blood flow goes away from your prefrontal cortex, the thinking part of your brain where you focus and pay attention to things and it and it just goes to like the survivalistic parts of your brain and, and so you can't get focus, you can't pay attention and then then you're not going to remember that whatever that thing was, right? And so, so yeah, so it's important for us to all just kind of like take a breath.Hannah Choi 09:59So Oh, that's what you just something that you just said, makes me think I, when I was reading your book, you said your memory is only as good as your attention. And I was like, "shut up". I know that. (laughter) But now you're gonna have to make me now you're gonna make me pay more attention. It was so funny when I first read that I was like, ah, ah, I know that. But now I see her. Now I see it in writing. So lots of people, I mean, lots of people, regardless of their ADHD status, lots of people have, you know, challenges with attention depending on the situation, right? Or depending on how stressed you are, or what time of day it is or what situation you're in. And so can you talk a little bit more about about that and why you said that sentence that was only as good as your attention.Sherrie All, PhD 11:01It's gratifying to hear a reaction like that. I treat other authors exactly the same way. Oh, the hell you sayHannah Choi 11:14But, I'm glad you said it. Okay, cuz it's true. Sherrie All, PhD 11:17Yeah, it was a hard. It's a hard truth. Right?Hannah Choi 11:19It was. Yes, exactly. It was a hard truth that needed to that I needed to hear and that everyone else needs to hear it too.Sherrie All, PhD 11:26Yeah, of course. Because I mean, well, let's just think about it. I mean, it's simple mechanics. Your brain stores information, like memory is like the storage of information that gets into your brain. Right? That attention is the gateway, you cannot expect yourself to remember things that you didn't notice in the first place. kind of simple. Um, and, and so, one thing I like to kind of talk about is that, like, I use this analogy of my husband. This, you know, it's been a while now, it's probably been about 15 years since this happened. But remember, when like flat screen TVs were coming out, like the plasma TVs and, and the high definition and he like, got a second job, because you know, they weren't cheap back there were like, several $1,000, right. And so you get a second job, he saves up a bunch of money, he buys the first plasma TV, and he sticks it on the wall. And he plugs it into our satellite service. And an end, the picture is garbage. It is really, really terrible. And we're like, what, what's the deal? Like, this is supposed to be like an amazing picture. It's high definition. So we call up the satellite company. And they're like, Oh, you got a new high definition television? Well, yeah, you need to pay like an extra $5 a month to get the high definition signal, you're not getting the high definition signal. And, and that's really sort of how I think about like attention and memory, that like memories, like the high def TV, right that it but it has to have a high def signal coming into it for it to function correctly. And so so all of the strategies that we know for improving attention are going to improve memory kind of down the line, because you're getting in higher quality data, more data, kind of coming in into your brain. So I usually will use this example when I'm talking about mindfulness and meditation, because that's what mindfulness does for you is that it allows you to kind of like widen your lens and just, you know, choose to be more aware of whatever's kind of happening in that moment. And, and so then you get higher definition data kind of coming into your, into your brain. And so, so it's just really important to remember that, like, if you were kind of like, not present or like, not there Ellen Langer, as a Harvard psychologist who has this really great quote, that, like, "when you're not there, you're not there to know that you're not there". Yeah. Like, you know, your thoughts are often in lala land, you know, you're thinking you're worrying about the future, you're ruminating about the past. You're not paying attention and you're not so you're not going to notice like what somebody said to you or what the news program said and, and so you may have to like, you know, ask for clarification back it up. That yeah, don't like Be nice to your memory. Don't expect it to remember things that that you didn't notice in the first place. It just yeah, that way.Hannah Choi 14:50Do you think that the lifestyle that people live and societal impact of maybe you know, social media and just How quickly information is passed to us? Do you think any of that has impacted people's perceptions that they have memory problems? When maybe when we lived like a simpler life when there were like less demands on us or less information coming in all the time? Do you think that that has increased?Sherrie All, PhD 15:20I mean, I've felt it, I don't know. I can't, I can't speak to the data on this necessarily, you know, but I think anecdotally, like, there's, there's some actually some really, one thing I have looked into, because one thing I noticed kind of early on, when I started in private practice, and that, you know, I have this habit of opening like, way too many tabs on my right, and, and then and then having to switch it. So So in neuropsychology, we call it set shifting, that if you're having to switch your attention from one to the other, you know, that colloquially, we call it multitasking. And, and it actually, there are some studies to show that that actually takes a really big toll on your performance, that they've done it with college students where they do two tasks, then their processing speed goes down by about the same as like being high on pot. And there's a big cost to kind of like switching back and forth. And but but even with, like computer usage, it's sort of this, the girls also described this thing called, like, the threshold effect, that when you cross over a threshold, like from one room to the other, that sometimes your your memory will kind of reset in and so you'll lose whatever that thing is that you are kind of holding in your working memory, it'll, it'll just kind of go away. And I'll notice that kind of on my computer screen, you know, it'd be like, I'm going to my email to look for this thing. And then I get to my email and like, something will distract me, right. And then it's like, what was that thing? You know? And so, you know, with technology, social media, like we're getting a small bits, right, like that. We're, we're switching very quickly, on a on a really regular basis. I'm sure that that takes a toll on like, sustained attention. Yeah, I think kind of the overall stress level. But the other thing that I wanted to say, kind of related to your question is that, you know, it's some of the stuff we're learning about Instagram and eating disorders and suicide. And you know, that a lot of it's perfectionism, right? And that, so I see a lot of people who suffer from cognitive perfectionism. You know, and even just socially, you know, that when people find out that I'm a memory expert, and then and then they'll find out, you know, so example of something I forgot. They're like, Oh,Hannah Choi 17:59Do you ever lie about your job? Sherrie All, PhD 18:00So sometimes I do. Hannah Choi 18:03Like "I'm in finance".Sherrie All, PhD 18:04I was at a party recently, and I made everybody else tell me what they did before I told him what I did, right. Hannah Choi 18:15That's awesome. Sherrie All, PhD 18:17But again, like, we were hard on our memories, we kind of expect it to be perfect. But the other thing is that the cost of having a bad memory is is real. In and so I don't think that people's fears are unwarranted because, you know, kind of back to your question about simpler society. You know, if you were a farmer, and you had kind of this, you did the same routine, day after day, year after year, in the cost of like, kind of losing your cognitive skills isn't quite as big as what it is for, like a tech industry. Yeah. Right. Your job is to write code. And then you can't focus anymore, you're making costly mistakes, then, you know, our incomes are really dependent on our cognitive skills now. Yeah. And then one other thing that I think is worth noting about sort of the collective fear about cognition is that rates of dementia are legitimately increasing. With the baby boomers turning 65 and aging into we're going to see an increase in the prevalence of dementia. Unlike anything that's ever happened in human history, it's going to see a lot more examples of it where people are struggling because of cognitive decline. And I think that in some, it's, it's happening on an individual level to more and more people where they're seeing family members, you know, loved ones like their old football coach, you know, Really declining and so, so people, you know, people, understandably are going to be really scared about that too.Hannah Choi 20:07Right, the more examples that they have of it in their lives, the more fear they will feel themselves.Sherrie All, PhD 20:13Yeah. And we're seeing it with concussions, right with all the media attention put on this chronic traumatic encephalopathy that, that, you know, it's pathology that we've seen in the brains of retired NFL players. But it trickles down into where, where people have kind of a misunderstanding about concussion recovery. And if they have one concussion, then they become very fearful. They think it's easy to understand that you would, by watching all the media coverage about these concussions and this neuro pathological disorder that can that can come from that, that people will automatically assume it's not a huge mental leap to think, oh, no, I bumped my head. And now I've lit the fuse on a neuro degenerative disease. That's not really the case. We don't have those kinds of links between like, a regular concussion, you know, for everyday people like ourselves, you know, compared to what's happening to these professional athletes. We all need to remember that? We're not NFL players, right? I am not an NFL player.Hannah Choi 21:33Neither am I. Yeah. I can't even watch football. Sherrie All, PhD 21:38Like, we expect we expect people to get better over time, likeHannah Choi 21:43That's good to hearSherrie All, PhD 21:45Even from more serious brain injuries, people get better. Not all the way sometimes, like with a serious brain injury. But, um, but if you, you know, if you didn't lose consciousness, and, you know, you didn't have like, extended periods of what we call post traumatic amnesia, or like, extreme mental confusion for like, a really long period of time, then, you know, odds are that you're gonna get better. And, but But what you believe about your memory makes a big difference.Hannah Choi 22:17Yeah. Right. And if you Yeah, and I think like, if we look, if we look we instead of looking for, we don't notice all the times, we do remember something, we just pay attention to the times that we don't, we look for those negative cases. What about all of this, like, I'm wearing clothes. So obviously, I remembered something today.Hannah Choi 22:20You remembered at least one thing todayHannah Choi 22:27That that's something that I've been working on myself is like, changing my identity. So I've always thought of myself, I mean, like, I was Forgetful Hannah. And so now I'm trying to change my identity. It's very difficult because I constantly just go to that, well, I'm just a forgetful person. So it's, it's, um, it's hard work. It's hard work to do. And if any of my family and friends are listening, they're probably like, yeah, your identity has not changed. But I'm trying, I'm trying to for myself, just change that. Because maybe if I stopped believing that so much about myself, I will actually come out with a better memory than I believe that I have.Hannah Choi 23:25Right? Yeah, change the narrative. You know, yeah, exactly. saying mean things to yourself, like, Stop criticizing yourself. And you people do it with all sorts of things. You know, if you say, like, I'm bad with money, you know, then that, you know, that belief leads to behaviors, and, you know, but, but you can learn how to be better at money, you know, oh, you know, I can't, I can't exercise, you know, but then you start to you shift some of that, and it like behavior and beliefs, kind of, you know, they play with each other. And, but, but they, you know, they go hand in hand. And so sometimes if you try a new behavior, then that can affect your belief. If you try to change your belief, then that can kind of lead you to a new behavior. So, it's worth doing the work because, you know, we really can rewrite those narratives.Hannah Choi 24:16Yeah, so much of so much of what I do for myself and also for my clients is, is that and so I have a question. So for myself, just speak for myself, specifically, because I'm myself and I can relate. So should I, I use a lot of strategies to help myself remember things because I know that memory is challenged for me. So I use a lot of different strategies. I use Google Tasks, Google event reminders, I have a planner I use post it notes. I put signs on the door I asked my partner, my husband to help me remember things I have people text me I mean, I have a lot of different strategies that I use. At But sometimes I feel like that's not helping my memory, it's just helping me not, it's just helping me do those things. It's not, like not like a practice to improve my actual memory. So for someone who has a challenges with memory, should is that enough or should there be additional practice to help improve my memory so that maybe I don't need to use all those tools.Sherrie All, PhD 25:31I don't think there's any evidence to date that we need to be doing anything different to specifically beef up our memory circuits. You know, I could be proven wrong with science kind of down the line. But the current state of the evidence is that there really doesn't seem to be a difference between cognitive activity, what type of cognitive activity and, and, and, and kind of preventing dementia, that like people who are cognitively active no matter what the cognitive activity is, it can be attention training, it could be processing speed, it could be problem solving, it could be memory strategies, all of those are, you know, they all of those are pretty equal in terms of the data that if you just kind of live a cognitively stimulating life, then your your risk for dementia is is mild to moderately reduced. There are some people who would say, well, oh, this this one, you know, like, I think if there is one type of training platform that maybe has outperformed some others, it's it's more kind of in like, processing speed. And so, so that said, like, I love your systems. Yeah, and, and, and that's the stuff that we would train someone who didn't have those systems and was complaining about their performance, we would actually work to try to get them to implement those types of systems. But the people who have really exceptional memories are ones that have kind of used the strategies of like, organizing information, or using visualization strategies, or just using externalizing strategies, which, you know, you use a lot of those. And so I think the goal for Functional Independence is whatever keeps you independent and doing a good job. Right. And so if you need to externalize those things, great. Right? Like, because that's what's gonna keep you you know, independent performing your job. Doing a good job, getting promoted.Hannah Choi 27:59Doing a Podcast, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, that that is great to hear. Because, I mean, that's what I do as an executive function coach is I you know, exactly that, right. We teach people strategies to level the playing field in whatever area, they feel challenged. And soSherrie All, PhD 28:21that's why we love working with the beyond booksmart executive function coaches, too, because you guys are so great at like, helping our clients implement, you know, a lot of these daily functioning strategies. And, and then there's more to it too, because if you're, if you're succeeding, then you kind of have that upward positivity spiral that's going to reduce stress. And and that's good for your brain in the long term. And then also, you know, I, I, it makes me sad, Hannah, that you actually beating yourself up about your strategies. Hannah Choi 29:05I'm not going to anymore! Sherrie All, PhD 29:06Yeah. That's kind of a layer of stress. Right like that. Hannah Choi 29:10Yeah. Right. Sherrie All, PhD 29:11Strategies. You burst out some cortisol. That's not good for your brain cells. Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. Like celebrate your strategies.Hannah Choi 29:22Okay, yeah, I'm going to and I, it feels really good to hear that because I, I don't know why, but I saw it as, like a flaw that I had to use them even though I even said to you before, like, why do people look down on on using strategies and here, I was doing that without even realizing it. And I just know that when I use those strategies, it improves everything for me, it improves. You know, my just my day to day existence. In my, my relationships with everyone, and, and my relationship with myself too, so, so I'm going to use them proudly now.Hannah Choi 30:10You're like a systems queen?Hannah Choi 30:14Well, you know, I mean I do teach people I like, I hope that I have also done that metacognition piece and figured out what works for me to know. But, what that actually reminds me what you were saying before how important that metacognition piece is, and how important it is to figure out like, how our brains work, and how, what works for us, and what doesn't work for us and why we do those things and why we don't do those other things. And it's just so important. And I feel like it, it feels like to me that that piece is not valued by everyone, because it is you're not, I don't know if I'm right. But it is not immediately valued because you are not actually producing anything when you are sitting and thinking about yourself. No, you're not. Right? You're not like creating anything, you're not making anything, but you are learning so much. And so I just hope that people recognize the value of sitting and thinking about yourself. Yeah, there's so much in there.Sherrie All, PhD 31:24And then, you know, putting those systems in place, because, I mean, it's basically like, a lot of what you're describing is like basic project management, you know, and like, I, I took a class where, you know, I had to kind of learn some project management, and I learned that I'm, like, terrible naturally, like, my natural instinct is to just like, jump right into the task, you know, and like, as a group, we're like, no, no, we're gonna, we're gonna wide now we're gonna, you know, lay out are all the steps and like, the timeline and like, oh, okay, but like, going, right? Like what you're saying, like, we put too much value on sort of the output. But if you take a step back, like when you do your, your, your task list, you're probably going to get so much more done that day, than if you hadn't if you just jumped right into the thing, because you forget all those other things like,Hannah Choi 32:27yeah, or I didn't think about like, well, let's see, I'm feeling I have a lot of energy right now. So I should do the thing that's going to be the most energy sucking and then save the other things for later or, like, I'm feeling very unmotivated right now. So I should just do that, like little things that don't take much that might make me feel better. So yeah. So yeah, so like the the same what you were just saying, like, thinking that the thinking about yourself is the same as stopping to plan a little bit before you jump in. So totally, yeah. So much value in that. So talking about strategies, what are your go to strategies for people to, to remember stuff? And I guess this can apply to anybody. I mean, a lot of us coaches work with students, but a lot of our clients are adults too. And, and I imagined that the strategies aren't really any different from between younger and older people.Sherrie All, PhD 33:22Yeah, they're pretty universal. Right? Okay, so well, because probably because I have a background in clinical neuropsychology, it's, it's important for me to first kind of diagnose the problem, right. So our strategies need to be really customized to whatever situation a person's having, right. And so, so there are kind of some universal strategies that that we can teach people. But it's, it's never a one size fits all. And, and, and so it's important to kind of match the strategy with the person, because that also, it's just not feasible. It's like, physically impossible to do all the strategies all the time. So so what I try to, you know, kind of empower my clinicians to do is to have sort of a toolbox. And I think that's kind of what beyond booksmart does a good job of too. It's like, you know, that the executive function coaches like you guys do have like a nice system and program, but but your executive function coaches have enough of kind of a toolbox to be able to kind of pick and choose to sort of match for like, Whatever, whatever the situation is. So anyway, I think go to strategies are number one, particularly when we have folks with attention problems, working memory problems, is that we try to get them to slow down a little bit. It's If they can, right, or be strategic about fast and slow, and, and so so, so will will, one of our first steps is to actually try to get them to engage in some sort of mindfulness practice. And what's nice about the world of mindfulness is that there are, you know, 50 bajillion different practices that we can, you know, choose from, because that's also not a one size fits all, there's people who really resonate with breathwork. And then there are people who love, you know, guided imagery, and then there are people, you know, you know, I think open monitoring, you know, it's sort of like, sit for one minute and just, you know, notice what's happening and be in the present moment. That can be great. For some people, I think it can be really torture for people who have attention problems and have sort of a really active Default Mode Network, where their minds are just kind of going all the time. It's what So, but, but, you know, kind of having a little bit of that cultural debate of like, okay, slow down, be present, be engaged, maybe start to notice what's happening in your body, kind of be present. Number two, would be using a lot of those externalizing interventions. So, so making lists, setting alarms, I love "can't miss reminders". This is we use a program called Cog Smart that's out of the VA system, it was originally developed for people with brain injuries and severe mental illness. And then they have a new program for people with mild cognitive impairment, which like maybe some of the earlier stages of dementia. And, and so they'll you know, put up you know, it put up like a little post it on your coffee maker that says walk the dog, you know, because you might, you might forget to walk the dog, I'm never going to forget to make coffee in the morning. So just kind of putting some of those reminders in sort of an obvious place. Another strategy they use is self-talk. And so that can kind of help you stay on target, as you're kind of going from one thing to the other. And that you kind of say, you know, I'm gonna go to the kitchen, I'm gonna get some yogurt, you know, and I'm going there, I'm gonna say, and you can say it out loud. You can say it to yourself in your head. Yogurt. Yeah. Yogurt. Yogurt. Yeah. So, so So those are some of my favorites. I think, you know, and so those are all kind of on the like, attention part of of the pathway to memory. But we also have other strategies for helping you memorize things, right. Like, and, and that's important for when the moment requires it. Like, where are you parked in a parking garage, for instance, right, like stopping and taking like a little mental snapshot and kind of rehearsing it or sort of visualizing it.Hannah Choi 38:00I loved that section of the book. It was so fun to do that, to do the list. And then to try to remember the list and then reuse the different strategies. It was very cool. Yeah, it was very convincing.Sherrie All, PhD 38:13Yeah. And so, you know, you can take some steps to get things to stick in your brain better, when that's needed. But it's not needed for everything right in. And so especially now, like, and this is something that, that we've been kind of debating in, I guess, kind of wringing your hands around since ever since humans became literate. And we just don't memorize things the same way that we used to, because we don't really have to write and so the newest iteration of that is the internet. And, and so you can even tell the difference between like Boomers and Gen Xers compared to like Millennials of like, how long I'm a Gen Xer. And I will spend a good 10 minutes trying to remember a fact about something. And my Millennial friends, like have already looked it up on their phone. Right.Hannah Choi 39:08Right. Yeah.Sherrie All, PhD 39:14Just grew up with like, you know, 10-year-old encyclopedia. Yeah.Hannah Choi 39:21Like, oh, I hope it's in the index. That's really funny.Sherrie All, PhD 39:27I mean, so that's the newest version of it, right? But as a species, we've been doing that externalizing ever since we had the ability to write things down and then go back and read them the way things are now. You don't have to memorize everything. I think you're probably going to be okay. I don't think it's causing Alzheimer's disease. The only what's causing Alzheimer's disease is that people are living way longer than they used to. You know, but so anyway, but when what when the moments right, Like when you need to memorize something like if you're an actor, and you're you have to memorize things, or you're getting a speech, or you need to, you're at a job and you need to memorize, like a certain, you know, list of steps to kind of make that automatic, then, then those those strategies can be helpful, you know, but yeah, but but I think that sometimes people assume that they have to kind of do that for everything. And then they worried because we're not doing it like we used to. It's gonna make me have Alzheimer's.Hannah Choi 40:34Okay, good to know. Not, I could be wrong,Sherrie All, PhD 40:41to always be open to being wrong. Right.Hannah Choi 40:43Right. Well, I hope you're not. So one additional thing that, that I got a very clear message in your book is that the pretty much the most important thing that we can do for our memories is exercise. And so can you talk a little bit about that?Sherrie All, PhD 41:03Yeah. So I do, I had been saying it's like the number one best thing you can do for your brain? And it probably is, although I am starting to tweak that a little bit that everything is, is memory strategies are customizable. So everybody has like a different? I think everybody actually does have like, a different probably priority. Number one. No, like, if you're a smoker, I'm gonna want you to quit smoking, before I make you get on a treadmill. I have an idea. Yeah. Like our individual, right, you know, it's Sleep, sleep is really important too. And we're learning a lot more about that. The reason that for a long time, we've been saying that exercise is the is the best strategy is because it's had the best science up to this point. And by best science, it means that we can do experiments. And so we have some really good causal data to show that when people are physically active, they get have bigger brains, the memory circuits in their brain are bigger, they grow new brain cells, and it actually increases the rate of brain cell growth. And we haven't seen that with any other type of lifestyle strategy, except for stress goes in the other direction, we know that. So the stress hormone cortisol keeps you from growing new brain cells. And, and so so, you know, managing stress may be you know, the opposite of, of, you know, kind of the same as exercise and, but, but the quality of the data is, is really, really strong. And so, so that's why we really kind of hang out, hang our hats on that one, because it lends itself to doing experiments. And, you know, whereas things like socialization,Hannah Choi 43:04It's harder to measure, harder to measureSherrie All, PhD 43:07And harder to manipulate. You know, make people get friends.Hannah Choi 43:13Just be more social. Sherrie All, PhD 43:16And like it! Hannah Choi 43:19Enjoy it don't get stressed. Meet five friends have five 10-minute conversations. measure your heart rate, or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it really shows you I mean, that's a great example for how research is really beneficial, or can be really beneficial, and why it is so important to research thingsSherrie All, PhD 43:45And also to kind of get some help. And so one of the things in the book is for people, one of the early exercises is for you to kind of gauge like what is your overall risk, right? Like where I use this brain 401k investment analogy in the book that, you know, our risk for dementia is really predicted more by how much brain cells and skills you have sort of stored in this cognitive reserve, and everybody kind of varies in those in how much reserves they have. And we can measure that by seeing how, you know, people with higher reserve have people with bigger brains have a bigger resistance to dementia. And, and that you can build your reserve throughout your life, like through these different lifestyle areas. But one of the early exercises in the book is for you to kind of do a self assessment, you kind of rate your portfolio, your brain 401k portfolio, you know, so am I, I may be doing really well in mental stimulation because I have a mentally stimulating job, but I'm not exercising a whole lot and I have a lot of stress. And so those are kind of the two areas where I need to maybe beef up my own individual efforts, right compared to somebody else, who, you know, maybe exercises a whole lot, but you know, he's just retired and it's not, you know, socializing as much as they used to maybe not learning new things and so that their own strategy is going to be different than than mine in. And so really kind of personal. It's all custom, right? We're human strengths and weaknesses, and we gotta figure it kind of focus our efforts.Hannah Choi 45:29Yeah, and that's, I guess that's, again, where that metacognition piece comes into, and really spending the time to look at your life and to look at how your memory impacts you, and how, and what areas you maybe need to, you know, like, spend more time with or, or back off on or whatever it is. So, in your book, you cover a variety of different areas like exercise, and socialization and learning new things, which are three that you've already mentioned. In addition to those, what are some others that people should consider when they're thinking about their brain health?Sherrie All, PhD 46:06So some new data that's come out about sleep is especially for the risk of Alzheimer's disease is that when when we're asleep, when you're in deep sleep, the glial cells, they're these like support cells that surround the neurons in your brain, they actually shrink by about 20%. And it allows the spinal fluid to come in and flush out toxins, oh, it's probably like the lymphatic system of the brain and clay and so it's, they call it the glymphatic system, the glial cells. And one of the things that gets flushed out is the amyloid plaque that causes Alzheimer's disease. We all make amyloid plaque and, but, but normally, it's going to be flushed out through the spinal fluid. Hannah Choi 46:58Fascinating. Sherrie All, PhD 46:59And it's only becomes problematic when it sticks in your brain and starts to kind of choke off your neurons. And so they're Matthew Walker is a neuroscientist who's written he wrote a book called Why We sleep and then he's he's runs a research lab where they are putting out papers and, and so they've actually found a correlation between people who sleep less in their 50s 60s and 70s have more amyloid plaque in their brain. We don't it's it's a correlation. So we don't know which causes which it could be that amyloid causes you to stop sleeping much or that not sleeping enough, you know, causes the amyloid to build up. But that's actually like most of our dementia prevention strategies are focused on trying to help you kind of just maintain as many neurons as you can. But this is actually a little bit more directly impacting the pathology of Alzheimer's, that, you know, if you get really good deep sleep, then, you know, you may actually be preventing the pathology of Alzheimer's like flushing that amyloid out.Hannah Choi 48:02Wow, that's so interesting.Sherrie All, PhD 48:05REM sleep is important for helping the amygdala is this little structure in your brain, that's kind of your fear detector, it's the thing that sort of sets off the fight or flight response. And it's kind of always looking out for things that it thinks might kill you. And then and then when it thinks that something might kill you, then it triggers you know, you to release all that cortisol and have those kinds of exaggerated responses. And you have the limbic hijacking, and you can't concentrate and you're, you know, you know, producing toxic chemicals to your brain cells, and you're keeping your brain from growing new brain cells. So, the amygdala if you lose one night asleep, your amygdala is 60%. more active.Hannah Choi 48:49Wow. That's not good.Sherrie All, PhD 48:56A recipe for yelling at your kid.Hannah Choi 48:58Yeah. And no wonder, right.Sherrie All, PhD 49:03And sleep is important for that kind of calming of the amygdala, most of your REM sleep later in the night, and an epic and if you have middle insomnia, if you're up for more than half an hour, the entire sleep architecture of your night sort of starts over where you don't actually won't get enough REM cycles. So you do more deep sleep early in the night. And so it's important to just try to maybe like sleep through the night. So so when we have people who talk about sleep problems, we we, as a practice, send them to a sleep center. Study. We need to know what's going on. Do you have sleep apnea? Do you have there's a cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia CBT-I that's very behaviorally based and so it's just about following kind of some simple rules to you know, make sure that you're going to bed when you're tired. And enough that you're, you know, kind of helping your body sort of reengage those natural circadian rhythms maybe not, you know, having like a caffeine curfew, not knowing what time it is at night is like a really big piece of that too, because that sticks that you go through when you make four o'clock. It's got like, two more hours.Hannah Choi 50:23Yes. You do the math, the insomnia math. Yes. My sister went through the CBT for insomnia. And it just really, really, really helped her. Sherrie All, PhD 50:36Yeah, it helped me, I did it. You know, I yeah, I got really bad insomnia during the pandemic and found out I have sleep apnea. So I went on. Yeah, and if you've ever tried CPAP, and you feel like you've tried it a few years ago, you're like, Oh, it's terrible. I can't stand it. Like, the machines are getting better and better.Hannah Choi 50:55Oh, that's good to know. Yeah. And so have you noticed? And have you noticed an impact on your on your awakening? You're Awake, awake, life,Sherrie All, PhD 51:04How I feel during the day? Yeah. One hundred percent.. Hannah Choi 51:07Yeah, that's great.Sherrie All, PhD 51:09I would walk around, like, face tired, or time focusing and have like, you know, and have kind of a hair trigger. And yeah, wait, and, and I've been able to lose it since then. But I think one of the biggest pieces, because I told this, the CBT therapist, I was like, You're not taking my phone away. It's not just I thought I was psychologist or a that makes me a really terrible patient. Right.Hannah Choi 51:37Right. Sure. I know what to do. Right? I'm only here because someone told me to.Sherrie All, PhD 51:46So, so we tell people about like, like, we'll give them information about sleep hygiene. You know, those are things like, you know, limit screens at night have, you know, that kind of stuff? I go, I go I'm not, I'm not giving up my phone. She's like, okay, that's okay. You know. So what we've devised is that because I have a really active default mode network that I think people with ADHD we're seeing, have that. And which means that when I wake up in the middle of the night, I just start thinking about all sorts of things, right. And I turn on a podcast. Like maybe right now someone is listening to us on this podcast.Hannah Choi 52:31We're happy to keep your company.Sherrie All, PhD 52:34I'll turn on a podcast, it has to be like a certain level of interesting because I'm going to fall back asleep. So maybe, maybe it's not this one.Hannah Choi 52:41Yeah, maybe it's just too engaging. They're not good for the middle of the night. Sherrie All, PhD 52:45It depends. But I have a little post it. It's a stack of post it notes that I take to my phone to cover up the clock, like, so I can turn my podcast on, but I don't know what time it is.Hannah Choi 52:58Yeah, that's so smart. I love that she told you that she let you keep it. Right. And that goes back to make the strategy work for yourself. Yeah. And, and, and it's okay. If if whatever tweak you have done to the strategy is different than what they say you should do. If it works for you, then then that's good enough. Okay. Sherrie All, PhD 53:19Yeah, it's collaborative, right? Yeah, no, none of these interventions could be to top down because people are gonna be resistant. And then they can't do it. Yeah. Right. We all have issues with authority.Hannah Choi 53:31Right. Yeah. Right. I'll just suffer instead of doing what you suggested. Well, thank you so much. This has just been such a great conversation. Is there anything else you want to add that we missed?Sherrie All, PhD 53:47Well, get the book.Hannah Choi 53:49Yes. Are sure you guys have to read this book Neuroscience of Memory by Sherrie All, Dr. Sherrie All it's so good. It's so good. And I love I just love how you wrote it. There was one thing you said like you it was a list of things that can be impacted in you. And you said you had the list. And then you said "...and stuff like that". I was like, Yes. Like you get you just wrote "and stuff like" that in a book. I was just so great. Because I feel like there's so much pressure out there to just have everything be on like super professional sounding. And that's what I want to read because that's what I can relate to. And it was just it was so accessible. Such a great book. So thank you. Sherrie All, PhD 54:34Yeah, I like to think of it as kind of like your girlfriends guide to your brain.Hannah Choi 54:37Yeah, that's what it felt like it was really it's really, really nice. So I highly recommend everybody find itSherrie All, PhD 54:44And the audio book, I got to narrate it. So you can listen to me!Hannah Choi 54:47Oh, cool.Hannah Choi 54:50That's great. You have a good voiceSherrie All, PhD 54:51And if you listen while you sleep and maybe you sleep with me.Hannah Choi 54:55I love it. And where else can our listeners find you?Sherrie All, PhD 55:01So you can find me at Sherrieall.com. That's my page that I keep for speaking and writing. And then if you want to access our clinics were at cogwellness.com. We have a location in Chicago, and then in Chevy Chase, Maryland, and hopefully some other states as we continue to grow. Because, you know, we're really passionate about helping people improve their cognition. And there are other practices that do what we do. And, you know, but, but I think that, particularly for some of the early stage dementia work, where we're one of the few people that are kind of helping people implement a lot of those recommendations from neuro psychologists. And so, you know, we just like to be able to help a lot more people. But so, so clinically, we're there for now, and but hopefully, hopefully near you soon.Hannah Choi 55:52Yeah, great. Well, thank you again, and I love I love how there are so many practical things that people can do to improve their memory and decrease or maybe not decrease, but improve the chances of living independently longer. And I love that. So thank you for all the work that you do. And I'm sure that that everyone out there that has met with you is just so with you. And your and your practitioners have been so grateful for the support. Yeah, maybe make it a little less scary, right. less scary. Yeah.Sherrie All, PhD 56:27And hire a Beyond BookSmart executive function coach. Yeah, put these things in practice.Hannah Choi 56:34Yeah. And like what we were saying earlier, you know, these, figuring out exactly what strategies are going to work for you. It is nice to have the support of someone else that has like a sort of, like a like at outset an outsider viewpoint and can help help you get out of your own head.Sherrie All, PhD 56:53Don't judge yourself for all your systems, right? Hannah Choi 56:55That's right! No judgment, this is a judgment free zone.Sherrie All, PhD 56:58That's right! Celebrate!Hannah Choi 56:59Yay. Yes, yes. I am so excited to go forth and use my strategies proudly. And I'm and I'm just going to keep continuing to spread the word that it's okay to use strategies. You do not have to remember everything on your own. Sherrie All, PhD 57:14You can't you cannot you can't. That's right. This, those five people are Sherrie All, PhD 57:18Like four or five. Hannah Choi 57:19Yeah, four, probably four. Sherrie All, PhD 57:20And they're probably probably lying anyway.Hannah Choi 57:22yeah, actually, just like quickly use some, like, they have a device in their ear. All right. Well, thank you so much.Sherrie All, PhD 57:33Likewise, this has been a pleasure. And thank you. Thank you.Hannah Choi 57:38And that's our show for today. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to all of Sherrie's resources, plus some more that I found to share with you. If you're like me and are challenged by your working memory, I really hope this episode has motivated you to find and use even more strategies that help you remember more stuff, which in turn will help you feel more confident. I know it's made a huge difference for me. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. If you like what you're hearing, please share focus forward with your colleagues and your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts, give us a boost by giving us that five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Establishing a school, writing an acclaimed book, starting a successful company - these are all extremely difficult achievements in their own right... but accomplished together by one person? That may seem near impossible for many of us, but for Michael Delman, they've just been necessary steps toward one singular goal: making Executive Function skill development more accessible to all. So how did he do it? Or more importantly, what can we learn from the trials and triumphs of his journey?In this week's episode, I talk with Michael about the essential wisdom he's learned from his 30+ year experience in education - one that includes starting the world's largest Executive Function coaching company, Beyond BookSmart, establishing a charter school, and writing critically acclaimed book for parents, "Your Kid's Gonna Be Okay". Listen to learn about Michael's journey and how you can apply his insights toward reaching your own goals (even the most ambitious ones!) Hopefully from his story, you can find inspiration to build even more meaning in your life.Show NotesBrainTracks (School training division of BBS): www.braintracks.comYour Kid’s Gonna Be Okay (Michael's book): https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/your-kids-gonna-be-okay-michael-delmanAn Hour a Week: https://anhouraweek.org/Beyond BookSmart: www.beyondbooksmart.comChan Zuckerberg Initiative: https://chanzuckerberg.com/TranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:19While you probably know by now that I am an executive function coach, you may not know that I work as a coach for a company called Beyond Booksmart. I got thinking about the story behind the company and how executive function skills are built into the running of a company that specializes in executive function. I invited our CEO Michael Delman to join me for a conversation about just that. We wound our way through a variety of topics, and Michael shared with me the wisdom that he's gained through his life experience as a student, teacher, founder of a charter school, published author and CEO of beyond booksmart. Listen to learn about how important executive function skills are to Michael, how he leads his company and how he believes that good executive function skills are the key to a successful future for the children of today. Hannah Choi 01:15Hi, Michael, thank you for joining me today. Can you just first start off by introducing yourself a little bit for anyone who doesn't know who you are?Michael Delman 01:24I'm Michael Delman. I'm the CEO of Beyond BookSmart and an educator for about 30 years now. So, in this because I love it. And dad of two girls, both of whom graduated this year - one high school, one college. You know, the usual I have a dog of course, Ultimate Frisbee aficionado and I founded a charter school. I wrote a book on I don't know, yeah, just...Hannah Choi 01:56There's got to be some great stories in there about executive function challenges and, and what led you to where you are.Michael Delman 02:04So, choosing the dog? Absolutely. Hannah Choi 02:09What do you have? Michael Delman 02:09We have a Cavapoo. Great little dog. But yeah, actually, yeah, no, actually, I'll tell you the story real quick. So my wife was a holdout on getting the dog as so often happens. And of course, now she's the dog's biggest fan. But my daughter younger daughter always wanted a dog. And we tried everything, you know, pros and cons list, what were the criteria that must be met in order to have the dog. And finally it came down to just pure psychological manipulation, where I, one day said to my wife, "What if? What if our daughter had a tragic accident, and she never had had a dog?" And my wife was like, "Okay, you win. That's it." So, when it came down to it, the rational left brain logical whatever it was just like that one image of like, our daughter being like, devastated and never having had a puppy that just did it so. So our daughter saved up money and paid for the dog herself. Even as kid and yeah, so there we go.Hannah Choi 03:20I'll have to make sure that my kids and husband don't listen to this episode, because I am the last holdout on getting another dog our dog passed away three years ago. I'm not there yet. I'm not there yet. And so we have to make sure that they don't listen to this episode.Michael Delman 03:35But you know what it's like to have a dog? So you know that? Yes, you know, the joy of it? And yes, no,Hannah Choi 03:40I do. Yeah. Yeah. So you are the CEO of an executive function skills company. So what is executive function and executive function skills mean to you?Michael Delman 03:50Yeah, it's way to make a living. Hannah Choi 03:56That's why you're in it, for the money??? Michael Delman 04:01Actually, honestly, it's the only way that anyone can make a living is with I think decent executive function skills. Hannah Choi 04:07Yeah, you got that, right. Michael Delman 04:09So we're in there to help a lot of people, definitely myself included in kind of the skills, tools, orientation that that it provides. So executive functioning skills are all about self management, the ability to regulate yourself to kind of, you know, understand how to get calm and focused, and, and organized and prioritized and then really know how to get things done. I think, I think, you know, a lot of us have ideas of what we want to do. And I know many people who have a lot more ambition or talent than I do, but I think my strength is probably making use of whatever executive function skills I do have, and then executing on on the skills you know, On on the on the vision. So that's EF skills let you, they really let you capitalize on, on whatever strengths you do have and kind of work around your challenges.Hannah Choi 05:13So what are your strengths?Michael Delman 05:16I've got probably two, maybe three. Um, the first is, I'm really good at prioritizing, I tend to clear away the BS. And there will be times where my inbox is just super loaded and just way too much in it. But that's a price I'm willing to pay to make sure I've dedicated time for my priorities, you know, a new idea, reviewing key data points, making sure someone on the team gets the support they need. So focusing on priorities really, really, really critical. The second is, I'm not afraid to work hard. So, you know, pretty good at getting started on things that I don't like the task initiation piece, and then the sustained attention. So call that one or two more. And then really the the final piece and the one that I think is probably most integral to my ability to make progress is the reflective metacognitive piece. So I make a lot of mistakes, I make more mistakes than the average person for sure. No, no, for real, I do. Foot and Mouth Disease is like they name that like, I literally they have a picture of me next to that. AndHannah Choi 06:34A.K.A. the Michael Delman disease?Michael Delman 06:36he's really good at getting the foot out and then going, you know, now that we've just done that, let's talk about how we can prevent that. Let's talk about what we could learn from that. So fortunately, people seem to be generally forgiving. When you acknowledge your your faux pas, faux pauses, I don't know what the plural for anyway. But the numerous faux pas in kind of my daily regimen, so I find that, that there's a certain humility that I have and need to have, that allows me to be an ongoing learner. And so that's that's like a real, honestly, it's a pleasure for me, like making mistakes doesn't really faze me that much.Hannah Choi 07:24And I think that when, when someone is so when a leader especially is so openly comfortable with talking about their challenges, or talking about mistakes that they've made, it, it gives, it gives, it probably gives a lot of people permission to think, oh, okay, if he, if he can make that mistake, own it and then learn from it, then then, then it probably helps people feel like, oh, okay, I can do that, too. I feel like that's...Michael Delman 07:54 Yeah, I appreciate you saying it like that, I think that's become a more conscious aspect of that kind of that tendency. Initially, for me, it was just simply almost a almost like a defensive mechanism for me, like, a necessity to, like, apologize all the time, or, you know, and then it shifted over time, from just apologizing to apologizing and trying to make improvements. Over time, it's been a conscious way to lead of, hey, we all make mistakes. Let me tell you a story, you know, and people like, you did them again. And that was that I did that. So it's I don't know if, you know, that's entirely good or not. But overall, I've found that, yeah, we all need a little bit of freedom to learn, and you can't really learn if you're constantly afraid of failing. So I think that that, I do think that that's a good thing coming from my position, as the leader of the company that I'm doing it certainly we have the greatest understanding of in total lack of judgment of any of our clients, and no, in addition to our staff, who were learning, make mistakes along the way. And we're good with that. We're okay with that. I do think that in my seat in the company, and I think for company leaders, there is a limit to what you can allow in, uh, in your staff, if they're not able to or willing to look at, you know, areas for improvement, because that is we're asking that of our clients, we truly have to be able to model it. And I you know, it's one of the things when we hire, you know, some of our core values include courage and openness, and, you know, integrity. So if you're going to live those things and be a Part of the staff, you know, like that that's really important. It may not be as absolutely critical in every place in the world, they know what matters for us and what we do.Hannah Choi 08:36So, and is that? Is that something that you have learned? Like, did you when you first started working out? Did you feel that way? Or is that something that has kind of developed and, and grown over the years of your experience what's feel which like, like feeling those those core values like those, the, you know, the asking that of your staff like to be to be to have courage and to be open.Michael Delman 10:38(coughs) I'm sorry, recovering from a joint bout of COVID and pneumonia, not a not recommended for anyone. So, I think I always felt intuitively, that those were important things they were when I was a school principal. And here, I knew that naming values was important. And humility was always there, growth was always there. I think it really took on an extensive amount of work that our leadership team did with feedback from literally our entire staff, to name the values more explicitly and simply, and to be able to kind of elucidate what each of those meant, in practice. And so I think once you've done that, and involved everybody, then holding people to that is part of your agreement is, this is just what we all we all understand. So I do think having those things explicit, is is more important, or adds a certain, you know, gives you a little more backbone to hold people to it. So, you know, that said, we're fortunate, I mean, we've we've really got, we've got the people, so it's not, that aren't huge, you know, huge problems that we need to immediately address. It's just, it does remind us all of when we and we bring up those words in our conversation, you know, like, Yeah, is that really integrity? Is that Is that does that really align? You know, are we you know, are we doing the right thing by everybody in that decision? That kind of thing?Hannah Choi 12:27 So, right. So, when you first started out, like, how did you, how did you get to where you are now? And how did you learn all the things that you've learned to be where you are, I've been with you for a while, and I it's a great company to work for? And I just like how did how did we get here?Michael Delman 12:50Well, um, I guess, kind of, I'll speed it up. As you know, I'll just start with the kind of the origin story, probably my my black lesson plan book from being a school teacher, everything I did as a teacher, every lesson, I just always would take notes afterward on what could have been better. And I think that that, that, that reflectiveness, that real eye for professional growth, professional development was really foundational. It was something where I knew I was going to, I was probably going to fail as teacher, if I didn't do that I needed to, I need to figure out things like classroom management, and good lesson planning and those sorts of things. And I was determined, because it was a dream, it was a passion. And I had a rough first year, and I was, I did not want to, I don't want to live like that. I want to have really great teaching experiences and great learning experiences. So the charter school is next. And that really emerged again, almost as a necessity because it was, I felt that there was more that I want to accomplish than could be done just under the auspices of my particular room, for example, like, kids didn't see connections between the subjects. I wanted that to be seen. Kids were kind of going through the motions a lot, just because whatever, they're just in school that because they have to be I want school to be a place where they could see like, Oh, this is exciting. I'm learning I'm doing something of value. So that was the charter school. That was super exciting partner within Outward Bound, kind of affiliated group and it was just really great. And then that wasHannah Choi 14:36Waid, can I stop you for one second? So you went from teaching what for one year to opening a charter school?Michael Delman 14:42Eight years. I taught for eight. Yeah, so though, but those eight you know, during those eight years, it was there were constant lessons and, and so much to learn. I mean, you could learn, you could teach and learn for forever, you know, decades and decades. I have friends who still teach and always learning. But for me, there came a point where I thought, I need to have a school where everybody is kind of sharing the same same values, the same enthusiasm, the same perspective on what a school is capable of. And, and so that school, which is still around doing great, it's a, you know, I love that place and what it's all about, it's really extraordinary opportunity I had there, but then to kids, you know, into it, and for years and his principal and working all sorts of hours and days of the week that are not days, and hours that you should be working, I needed something a little more sane. And, and then I also was a little bit distant from, you know, like, the actual work. And so I want to be back on the ground more. So I started beyond booksmart different name at the time thinking outside the classroom. And, you know, and I started that, because we'd had kind of, uh, you know, how the schools have typically like a bell curve of students, right, you know, in terms of, you know, these your average kids easier. I see, well, we had more of a barbell, you know, like, it was, like, you know, we had kids that were all sorts of kids were twice exceptional, as we call them now, you know, smart, but scattered, and it just seemed that we drew kids that were in a lot of ways like me, that were, they really wanted to learn, but they had something in their way. And I've always had those challenges those those executive function challenges myself, and so it was a real pleasure to kind of like, figure that out, and to build a school that would create, like, really, really rich opportunities for deep research and work, but also provide all that support the necessary support, to enable that, that level of ambition to be, you know, to kind of be potentiate it. So that was over a period of several years. And then so Beyond BookSmart, emerged as a chance to really do something special for students without all the restrictions of those nightmarish bureaucratic reports you have to do, and many, many stakeholders instead is really focus on what does this person actually need. And it really, I didn't ever anticipate in the early days that it would be as big or as popular, it was just something that I felt I had to do. And the demand kept coming. You know, we expanded from middle school and high school to elementary and then college and then adults and, you know, new division now on its way that we're built. You know, it's been done for a bit now on on schools, and, and corporations, but it's just there are a lot of opportunities that that keeps seeming to evolve, because it feels like these are the skills people most need right now.Hannah Choi 18:21It, you know, I've been picking my kids up on the playground after school for the last six years. And when I, when people asked me, you know, what do you do for work? And I tell them, they, in the beginning, they never knew what I was talking about. And now when it comes up people, so many more people know what executive function skills are. And it's been really interesting to see, to measure the awareness through rather people know what I do for my job or not. So yeah,Michael Delman 18:57It is starting to make waves and you know, like the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, you know, which, you know, Zuckerberg of Facebook, whatever. Take away all the things to talk about on that. Just focusing on on this, they chose three areas to focus on reading, mathematics, and executive function skills. So that was a real acknowledgement from a group that you know, a large, large business, one of the world's biggest saying, this is really, really going to be so the critical 21st century skills, if we're going to even make it to the 22nd century as an intact civilization with, you know, where we are wrestling with problems that require a level of insight and discipline and focus and maturity, that metacognition metacognition, the emotional regulation, the impulse control, that we we really are, you know, we're seeing a lot of breakdown in the world and in our own country. And it's hard because breakdown leads to breakdown, you know, you see other people losing it and badly behaved and all over the place, he just just watch the news. These are the skills that I think can save us. I mean, I think they're the skills are truly I mean, on a personal level, they lead to much better personal success, and that's excellent, it's good for us, you know, any of us individually that are doing well, that's great. But they also really, I think, fundamental skills to the fabric of our, of our society, people who can look at more than one side have a, you know, have an argument, and, and be calm with that, you know, and, and people who can say, you know, I'm not going to make up facts, I'm gonna go with reality, I'm going to be paced, I'm going to do what's realistic, I'm going to compromise. So for the greater good. I mean, these are things that, you know, we hope for, and often don't see in our official elected leaders, for example, but we can do it on local levels, we can do it with each other, we can do it on a community basis. And, you know, take the politics out of it, and just have, as humans kind of think thoughtfully together. And, and so I think these executive function skills are the root of the familial success are the roots of community success. And obviously, they're the root of individual success. So, you know, if we contribute to that, then that's really like, that's amazing. That's a that's, that inspires me, right?Hannah Choi 21:46Yep. Something that I've said before, in, in, on the podcast, and that's something that I know a lot of us, probably every coach feels is that when we after a client graduates and they go out into the world, we hope that they can teach, teach their friends, or teach their siblings or their parents or somebody, something that they've learned, and maybe they just teach it through modeling. But just I love thinking about them being out in the world, and, and I sharing all that,Michael Delman 22:15yeah, and I even love the stories of kids teaching their own parents, you know, like, the kid learns something in one of our sessions, like the five finger breathing and, you know, some sort of way to self regulate, or the hand model the brain or, you know, what, neuroplasticity? Is any of that. And then the parents say, you know, this is really useful for me, do you think could I get the coaching to and, you know, or whether or not they need it, they see oh, my gosh, you know, it's pretty transformative. So, yeah, so good stories.Hannah Choi 22:49That comes up a lot, where, and when I was talking with Peg Dawson, about how parent adults, they feel like there's this pressure that they're that they should just already have that all figured out. And, and, and of course, we don't, or a real realization, like, oh, that's why, like, that's why I can't do X, Y, or Z. And that it's okay. It doesn't mean you're a bad person, or you know, anything is wrong with you. But, and then there's strategies and tools and things that you can learn to make it easier.Michael Delman 23:30And you were kind enough to ask me what my strengths were early. So apparently, you know, at least anyone listening might at least temporarily believe I've got straights. But but you know, when it comes to the areas of challenge, and, you know, what's kind of driven me to work on this stuff, emotional regulation, that's always been profoundly difficult for me. You know, I struggle with that, both because of ADHD and mental illness struggles that I had growing up. And these were not things that I necessarily wanted to learn. They were things that I had to so the self reg piece, learning to manage strong feelings really, really just for me, absolutely critical. Organization. Luckily, the camera's view is limited. It's not my forte, I work around it, I It's better than it used to be. It's good enough. I do what I must, but, you know, I tend to lean on my strengths and then the weaknesses, I've tend to develop compensatory strategies to work around. But I think, for all of us, you know, we definitely need we need to acknowledge that those areas of challenge that's okay. I mean, we all have, you know, we're don't have to be perfect. Hannah Choi 24:48And I think I think some of that reflection piece that you were talking about, it really comes into play there. And if you are able to stop and reflect and think about like Who Am I? And where am I in? What do I want? And where am I going? And am I happy with with this? And, and it's really difficult to do that. And it's also it also ends up being difficult because you often don't know the answer. Like you don't know...25:13I will tell you, I'll tell you a funny story. I never shared this on a podcast before or any interview. But when I was, I think six or seven years old, is one of my earliest memories came home. I had been picked on at school for just being me being me or kids being mean, or whatever it was, and, and I, my mom sat me down on the stairs, I remember we were like three or four stairs from the bottom. And, and I told her, she very empathetically said, "Well, what do you think you could do differently?" And it's very interesting, because on the one hand, it's a little bit, you know, I'm six or seven, I have no idea. You know? Secondly, it's, it's also it's like, well, what about the Oh, poor thing? You know, that must have been so hard. Let's go, let's go beat those kids up, you know? Hey, Mom, you know, me and dad, you know, come over, we beat the crap out of this. But I'm, it is one of my earliest memories, which is trying to figure out, oh, what could I do to improve the situation? Now, I think one of the key things, one of the reasons it was successful, was, as I said, it was said with some degree of empathy, there was a, it was probably more of the tone than the words just like, ah, you know, like, it could have just been that much just a little, Oh, sweetie, you know, well, what do you think, you know, maybe we are you, you know, could do that would, you know, or might might do differently? Yeah, I think that that was kind of taught to me at an early age is, you know, what do you control? What's within your power? So I, although, you know, we talked to Beyond BookSmart a lot about "knock before entering", we talked about kind of R before T, right, you know, "reach before teach" and, you know, "relationship before task", but the Relationship was there. And yeah, and the Reach was there. So I think that that made it easier, you know, that she could teach me because she'd already reached me. And I do think that that's, I think that is what we want to develop in our in our kids is, what is within your sphere of control your sphere of influence, and, you know, and not just your sphere of worry, right, you know, those those well known sphere so far. Otherwise, it's just, well, that person's a jerk that I'll tell you a funny story. I was in college, and I found myself in therapy. I was like, Oh, my God, you know, there's so much on my mind. And, and I complained about someone who is just a complete "beep", you know, can't say the word. And therapist said, "Michael, I'll tell you some, there's never a shortage of beeps." And honestly, you know, like, honestly, have anything said to me, like in that entire therapeutic experience, that was the one that resonated was never a shortage of that was what do I.Hannah Choi 28:31So what are you going to do? When are you going to do differently? Yeah, please. Yeah. I know, that's, you know, I see that a lot with my kids, you know, if they're struggling with a teacher that they don't like, or, you know, whenever it's such a, it's a hard lesson to learn, but it's so important, because you're right, there's never a shortage of beeps, andMichael Delman 28:50never shortage in the world. I had a student I was coaching her years ago. And she was a senior, great kid. And, you know, I said, What's one of the things that you learned this term? And she said, Well, what I learned is that, at the end of the term, I am done with that teacher that I could not stand. But I'm never done with a grade that she gave me. And I was like, oh, you know what? Good for you. Yeah. And I figured it out. It doesn't really matter that you didn't love that teacher. It's, I mean, granted, it would have been a lot easier for her if it had been a teacher that understood her and empathize and connected and, you know, figured out the ways to make learning accessible for her all that stuff. But really best that she could do given that given the situation was, What could she do? So? Yeah,Hannah Choi 29:47So I'm just curious about more, to learn more about what it's like to be the leader of a company that that teaches people how to develop their executive function skills, does that impact you as a leader? And does it impact how you create your teams and how you structure the company even like down to meetings? Like, cuz I imagine you build executive function thought into all of that way more than other companies, might.Michael Delman 30:24We, we tend to hire people who have really good executive function skills. It just makes it easier because they'll do their jobs better than people that, you know, on average, you know, don't. Some of it is is, you know, some of it is really it's the people, and it's the structures, we definitely structure things. I guess, Hannah, you know, I'd probably look at a couple of aspects. The first is, we are definitely a learning organization, we're always, always inviting in like, an, you know, new consultants with new perspectives, to challenge us, because what you think, you know, and what was really effective, say, last year, or for the past two or three years, now, it needs some some rethinking, we tend to be pretty structured. And I'd say increasingly, so we've got really good dashboards to measure what are called KPIs or key performance indicators, to look at things like, you know, customer retention, and customer satisfaction, and really like predictive scores about customer health, and are we doing the things that they want and addressing their needs proactively? Those kinds of things on the one hand, so really like the right structures for, are we onboarding people in a way that they understand what this journey is, you know, that it's not a quick fix that it really is there, there's real work, and that's going to take time, those kinds of things. And then just the way we work with each other, the agendas, you know, every person I meet with, we have a color coded agenda, you know, with action items are highlighted with, you know, with due dates, etc. But then there has to be a place to keep track of all those dates. Otherwise, you have to scroll through too many places. So like with the school division, we have a pretty tight Gantt chart, you know, which are these long, measurable, you know, a lot a lot of rows on for every kind of key item key x, I'm in that initials of who's assigned it. In the core division, we use these quarterly goals, trackers, and we color code, how far along we are on each thing, each each major goal for the quarter for each department. I think it's also there's just the way that we communicate with each other, there's a lot of checking, preventing, assumption making. So you know, being sure that "Did that make sense?" Or, um, so there are a lot of pings directly from a document on clarifying questions. We use certain protocols where, you know, people present something, and then there are clarifying questions, probing questions. And then reflection from the person who did the presentation. So kind of these these tuning protocols are, there are shared mero boards where we brainstorm, and many people are working together. And then we're kind of quantifying what we have there for, like, that's how we did the core values as an example, to see which core values were consistently represented. And which ones were kind of anomalies that weren't really core? So there are I mean, there are so many tools, you know, out there, the ones I've mentioned, and, obviously, infinity, more of them. But it's, um, it's really a commitment to always figuring out how can we communicate effectively with each other. And honestly, with ourselves, like internally, like, you know, because you have all these great ambitions, and you can say, you're gonna do all these things, we can make a, you know, lengthy to do list and just not get to it. And again, that does come back to really get back to prioritizing what is it that is important enough that that's your focus, that's where you're dedicating time. And then these things are those are nice to do if you if you get to them, but it's not as critical. So yeah, I'd say that executive function skills are 100% infused into almost everything we do.Hannah Choi 34:46And that makes me think about how, how we were talking earlier about how if if everyone had access to this kind of knowledge, and even if you just think about leaders of companies, so leaders of companies See, they they know their business, but they might not know executive function skills, like your business is executive function skills. So you know that and so it's probably easier for you to build that into a company structure. So if people are like kids who, you know, don't like maybe they go to a school where, where executive function skills aren't explicitly taught, or if they, you know, I don't know, there's so many different areas, I just think I always wish that everyone could have access to it. And I know, I'm sure that's been a struggle for you, you know, wanting to provide access to everybody. But then being limited.Michael Delman 35:38While we have definitely gotten a lot of interest on the corporate side, and it's something that we will develop ultimately in a in a meaningful way. We really only do that on an, you know, on demand basis, we don't solicit it, but there is a sequence to things and the thing that is really my passion and focus right now, is our school division. That is my Yeah, I mean, it's just I know, our whole staff is behind this. Many of us come from a school background, we know that teachers are they've overwhelming jobs, anyone who was not taught really doesn't have a clue how hard teaching is. And it's, um, it you need support, to understand how you manage scraping papers, and managing 25 disparate personalities in a room at a time. You know, and it's just it's, it's a really challenging job. The other thing about the schools is it democratizes access, because schools can pay for really relatively low, low price, and amount of money that will then elevate the game, have all their teachers help all their students. You know, and again, democratizing access is a huge, huge principle, too. I started the charter school was I wanted to provide a private school quality education for those who couldn't afford it. And even though there's pushback among some in the public school community, the district's like, you know, well, you know, that's, we don't support charter schools, I've done it, and it made a huge difference. And I no regrets. And I taught in the regular District Public Schools before that, and I know, we made a difference that we improved all the schools around us. So you know, the, the chance to do this for us, like if we could have every school in the United States of America, and, you know, well beyond it to learn about executive function skills, understand how they're developed, how to help their kids develop them how to work around the challenges, I mean, you know, that's a legacy that's, that would be life complete.Hannah Choi 37:54I'm just gonna pause here to give you some information on where to find out more about BrainTracks, the school support division of Beyond BookSmart that Michael's talking about here. He believes it is so important to lay down tracks or neural pathways for executive function in the brain when our kids are young and to give teachers additional tools to support this brain development. And BrainTracks is designed to do just that. And to learn more, you can go to the website, braintracks.com or send an email to info at braintracks.com. Okay, back to the conversation. Hannah Choi 38:30Do you think that or how do you think the pandemic has impacted people's experience with their own executive function skills and just maybe awareness of them?Michael Delman 38:41It's well, definitely, the pandemic's been a challenge on all of our executive function skills. And I think it begins with that kind of that emotional challenge, right? You know, we talk a lot about like, if the two parts of the brain there are many parts, but you know, the, the emotional amygdala and that whole limbic system and all that, you know, here, and then the prefrontal cortex is where executive function skills reside right here. When you are worried about whether your job will be there, whether you can get toilet paper, whether you will live or die, because there's no vaccine. Those are, I mean, people were flipping the lid all the time. And so it was a time really where we had to regulate ourselves. First, we had to get that government money to make sure our company was stable. We had to shift everything we did go 100% online, we're about 50 60% online, but this 100% immediately, and then we had to build things that were really relevant for everybody now working from home learning from home, you know, so all those adjustments were necessary for us to stay relevant because people's problems were suddenly much bigger, everyone was struggling with mental health issues of anxiety, depression, you know, things like that, those have remained challenge less. So now that people are vaccinating able to go out and about much more, much more normally. I think we've had a permanent shift, though, in the landscape. In some ways for the better, I think a lot of us have found the benefits of working from home of getting support from home, we see that it's convenient, it can be actually super connected, we can really like talk to each other, it's, it's in some ways, less intrusive. So there's a lot of upside. But I do think that the, the, you know, the EF challenges when you are dealing with so much uncertainty is hard. And, you know, we're we're dealing with a recession, and a bear market and all those kinds of things to people worry, but kind of like, like they say, if you don't desperately need your money, and it's in the stock market, during a bad time, wait, because it'll go back up again. It's, it's also, if you can, during a difficult time, continue to do your habits, you know, meditate in the morning workout at some point during the day, you know, do your journaling, or, you know, get the coaching and the support. You know, all the things that just kind of like, keep you steady. do that because those habits are even more necessary during these times. And then they just, gosh, when as things get easier, you're just well equipped for totally capitalizing on all the opportunities that are there as as things do, you know, become more normalized and easier again.Hannah Choi 42:00And how do you what do you think about the the increase in mental health challenges that we're seeing, and especially in college kids and teens, and their connection with executive function skills there? And what are your feelings about all that?Michael Delman 42:18It's, um, it's devastating. You know, so having a daughter just graduated college, another one who just graduated high school. They are, my two girls are really, they're level headed, and they know how to get started. And they just, you know, they get their work done. That said, it's been anywhere even for them from boring to frustrating to outright depressing at times, just to deal with things. If you have genuine tendencies toward mental health challenges, anxiety and depression, things like that. These these are really, really challenging times, I do think that there are a lot of teachers and even whole institutions that are responsive, and you need that you need the institution itself to, to respond, make adjustments, I think there's a, there's a saying that's there for a reason, when all else fails, lower your standards. That is not a horrible admission of defeat. It means if you interpret a little bit differently than maybe just a negative one, it means be real with what's going on around, you look at the context, you know, maybe maybe you thought you were going to be able to do all these courses, maybe do one less course, during this time. Maybe you know, what it means is, instead of, you know, doing every single page of the reading, you learn how to read more for just getting the main ideas when you're feeling too stressed. You know, maybe it means getting support, either therapeutic support, you know, some sort of professional therapist, or coaching support to learn how to be more efficient and, you know, learn how to be more effective with your executive function skills. But I think the foolish thing would be to act as if everything is exactly the same. You know, "keep calm and carry on" and it only gets you so far. I mean, keep calm and carry on. It's a nice little thing to say. But the question is how, like, how do you keep calm how, you know, how do you carry on which things do you decide to let go of? My older daughter, she was just doing everything at school. I mean, so many things, and they were all pretty cool. And then she said one day, I think I'm gonna drop this executive committee. I'm on On for this thing is just like it's really kind of tangential in my life, it's not that it doesn't bring any joy, it's not something that really adds a lot of value to the world. It's not that relevant to my resume. And, and it's that kind of one more straw, you know? And she's like, you know, do you have any anything to say about it, which I was amazed she, you know, asked for my opinion. And I was like, you know, yeah, I have to say, I'm really proud of you, like, good for you for deciding what matters and what doesn't matter. And, again, good prioritizing. I think that that, you know, again, it's, you don't have to lower your standards on everything, what you have to do is make choices. And I think that's hard. It's hard when you're anxious, because then you're worried what if I'm making the wrong choice? You know, what, if it's a choice that's going to lower your anxiety? It's probably a good choice. What if you know, you know, or you feel, oh, you know, I'm, I'm so stupid I, I should be able to do better. So it's got nothing to do with it? You know, get those cents out of it. Yeah. Don't sit on yourself. Right? So it really is where? Where are you? Do the best you can right now. And when you're ready, you know, do more, but just try to keep up decent health, health, giving habits and, and focus on the things where you're gonna get the best return on investment. I mean, that's what it's all about. And I think what young people don't always understand that we get as adults a lot better. Is that that's what you have to do as an adult. Yeah. And what the problem is, when you're in high school, sometimes you get the message from teachers. Everything I say is important. Doesn't matter if it's on the exam, actually, it does. It does matter if it's on the exam. If it's not, you might not spend as much time reviewing it, studying it. You really do need to get good at really discerning what matters and what doesn't matter. It's really what it's all about.Hannah Choi 47:08That just reminds me so much of a a conversation that I had with a freshman in college client, we talked about diminishing returns, and how you know, as you're working, you got to pay attention. Like, are you enjoying what you're doing? Are you being efficient or effective anymore? And she said it had never really occurred to her to pay attention to that. And and we were thinking it's because when you're in high school, and all through school, and your parents are telling you, your parents are telling you what you have to do. Your teachers are telling you what you have to do. You know that like the teacher who says it's all important, even if it's not on the test. And that's a skill that you have to learn as you become more independent. And I guess it's part of becoming more independent is recognizing, okay, this being on this committee is actually no longer important to me. And yeah, and she probably your daughter probably felt like, yeah, like you said, like, she should do it. So my client felt like she, she should study for 45 minutes, because that's what the timer she set for this, you know, this topic, but then if she noticed, after 25 minutes that she was reading the same paragraph over and over again. And it's like, yeah, why wasted another 20 minutes switch to something else? Right. Right. So that's the hard thing to learn,Michael Delman 48:23I guess, you know, it's funny, I have this list of essential concepts for life. They are they're ones that apply off, you know, kind of first and foremost from a field of origin like economics, or say, you know, political science or psychology or math or whatever, you know, things. Things like diminishing returns, as you're just mentioning, or I mentioned, return on investment, you know, or opportunity cost, you know, yeah, I could do this. But what else? What am I giving up? What's the most valuable thing I could be doing during this time, it's sometimes the most valuable thing is actually resting, letting the brain reset. Sometimes it's exercising, sometimes it's reconnecting with an old friend, you know, they're all in or doing a creative creative outlet. There are many, many different things that are that are worth your time. It's not head down, or head down, you're gonna run into something ultimately, right. So quote me on that one. Head down, you're gonna run into something so good.Hannah Choi 49:31Look up every once in a while!Michael Delman 49:32Look up, pal! So but I think it's really important to look up and to and to figure out is this is this the best thing to be doing now? I'd say actually a sad but worthwhile example. I was told about a town government where they had 90 different projects that they're working on 90 projects. I think the town budget something like $200 million or something. It's it's not a small number. Um, And there was a new project brought forward really good idea. And they said, "Well, we have to get the other 90 done first, before we can add something." That's not the way you want to think. And you know, and I'm not trying to pick on government. I mean, certainly if I were I would not pick on town government at at the beginning. That's a local government. And they're still like, well, we've got this, you know, head down, head down, oh, my gosh, you've just been given something that's going to get way more return on investment, you know, and yet, you're going to give up, you're not even going to look at that, because you've got all these other things that you say you're committed to. So again, those executive function skills, whether it's individual level, family level, schools, businesses, government, I mean, it doesn't matter. Like these are the skills, that they're just going to increase everybody's productivity, it doesn't resolve the one thing EF skills don't do is resolve differences in values, right? Like, they can help clarify differences in values. But, you know, sometimes there truly are competing values, one person believes this and other believes that that's okay, then you can together figure out alright, well, given our differences in values, how do we come up with quick example? Guns, it's actually a really good example. There's probably nobody out there who's like, "it would be great if more people died from gun violence, right?" There's like, nobody thinks anyone really believes that. And, you know, probably most people are like, well, you know, some guns for some purposes, target practice, maybe some people are like, yeah, for hunting, you know, whatever it's like it. And then you got all the stuff in the middle. The problem is, things get really polarized. So you've got people that are pretty much pretty different ends of the of the of the perspective. But if you get away from some of the language of like gun control, and some of the language, it's coming out now a little better, like gun safety. That seems like a language that, okay, how do we make for better gun safety in a way that doesn't restrict the rights of people for the most part that want their guns, and manage them responsibly, and yet doesn't allow them in the hands of people that are going to be a true threat to themselves and others. And, you know, those kinds of things. There's virtually no topic that I can't, that I've never died, but I used to be a public policy major in college, where I found that there are places it's just people go to their little corners, and then they fight. And then they dig in emotionally. And you know, head down and, you know, buttheads not, you know, so maybe one side wins for a while, then another side wins for a while, but it doesn't really, you know, come up with sustainable solutions. So, and, you know, we need those.Hannah Choi 52:58Peg Dawson was talking about how she has divided the executive function skills into two groups, like foundational skills and advanced skills. And, you know, some of the last to learn that we learned are like, flexible thinking, and, and, and metacognition, and, you know, perspective taking, and those are all the skills that are that are required for exactly that, you know, even the change in vernacular, right? Someone was using flexible thinking, to, to get there, you know, and to change how we Yep, key, just a simple one word switch can change people's orientation to it. vMichael Delman 53:34Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And not to be naive. There are truly forces of money and evil, you know, in any space. But, but yeah, but when you're talking about people that are truly have just goodwill and trying to figure out things, then, you know, yeah, I mean, that, that, that open mindedness and, yeah. ability to think flexibly. That's where the solutions that probably will help us all to be a better species. We'll, we'll get there. So yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 54:05So hopefully we can improve everyone in the world their executive function skills.Michael Delman 54:10Yeah. Well, he and I just, I'll say it starts with working on ourselves. It's, you know, anyone who knows me? I mean, they have stories they have, like, like, how did you lose so many things in one weekend? Michael? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, you know, that was a it was amazing. Kind of set a record there. I mean, there are Hannah Choi 54:34I want to hear that story.Michael Delman 54:36 Skiing ski weekend with my friends. Let's just say that we weren't entirely disciplined the whole time. We were just it was just it was a party weekend with the boys. Where are my gloves? Where's my water bottle? I may see my water bottle you know, you know whatever it was there was always something missing. And you know, four guys with ADHD you know, offers weekend is A lot of fun. Sounds great. But yeah, I mean, those kinds of things, and it's all but it's, it's not a matter, you know, whatever being perfect, it's just, it's just a matter of like always, I don't know, keeping some humility and working on yourself and, and, and then maybe have something to teach other people as well given given that this is what you obsess about constantly, and document and systematize and train people in and yeah, you know, you don't have to pretend that you're the person with all the perfect skills and this all came so easily. In fact, one of the reasons I feel I can be helpful is because of the some of the personal challenges. And, you know, when, when I was in college, and I, I tried to drop out of a class because I could not keep up with the reading, it was just too much. And I was a freshman. And I thought, you know, like, I don't know, probably better to drop one course than to fail everything trying to survive this one Latin American studies course. And in a way, that was good thinking, but my professor insisted on meeting with me. And he said, Michael, why can't you know, why are you dropping? And I said, the books are too long. And he said, How do you read them? I said, I read page one. And then I go to page two, isn't that what you do? He said, No, you got to learn how to use like SQ3R - Survey, Question, Read, Recite, Review, or whatever the name was, at that time, and really how to read more like a detective and search for clues. And what I learned from that was I had been reading, so inefficiently my whole life, and still was it like, you know, Ivy League institution, in spite of that, with that tool, and that approach, and guilt free because it was taught by a professor, there you go, I became a really efficient reader. So, you know, I'm never going to be the person that can read one page to the next next as quickly as other people. It's not, you know, I don't have that scanning. And that, that a built those some of those physical abilities there. But I understand the technique, and it's made me just much more efficient. So, you know, I, I love probably almost more than anything, Hannah is when someone says, oh, my gosh, that would be so much better. That would be so much easier. You know, and I know, you get that as a coach, you just know, it's like, Oh, yeah. And then they try it. And they, you know, and they come up with their own solutions. After a while they don't even, you know, they just need to kind of run something by us. And then it becomes theirs. You know, theyHannah Choi 57:50I feel like this, this theme of we talked about it in the very beginning. And I know it comes up a lot in sessions and is the idea of almost like being given permission. Even though the permission was there all along. We just didn't know, to do things differently. And to do things in a way that works for you. Like, you have to hear that professor tell you that. And it changed everything for you. And you you grew up thinking, Okay, this is how this is how you read you read page one. And then because they always say just read one to 30. And you're like, Okay, I guess I just read pages one to 30. Now, you know, no one ever, like tells you it's okay to do it differently. And they just getting permission to do to make things your own. Yeah. And then once you have that, okay, like my client who realized she doesn't have to follow the timer, she can follow her diminishing returns instead. And how many opportunities opens up when to allow yourself to think that way?Michael Delman 58:47Because, once you've once you've stopped writing between the lines enough times, and you've, you've seen that the approach, the one and only approach is not the one and only approach and that there are many others that other people have shown you trusted resources have shown you and then you start to come up with your own, you know, boom, you know, sky's the limit, then you start to see Oh, wow. Uh, you know, it's it. Remember I said earlier about who you are, is something that doesn't have to be so perfectly defined, it can evolve, you know, this is kind of that that micro example of it, how you do it doesn't have to be Oh, it's this is how you do it. Well, that you know, it like they say, You gotta you gotta learn the rules before you can break the rules, you kind of need you need an identity before you can kind of like break free of the need to constantly have an identity.Hannah Choi 59:43But yeah, when you something to work from, a place to work from.Michael Delman 59:48But as you are, you know, as you already have developed certain certain basic fundamental skills, a certain fundamental sense of who you are. Then you have some free them to kind of move from there to bigger and in a freer way of approaching, you know, the way you do things and indeed even who you are. So yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 1:00:14So what are you? I mean, other than the new division, BrainTracks love it, what are you excited about?Michael Delman 1:00:22Um I think I think just on a personal level, I'm excited to be done with being sick and get back out and play ultimate frisbee again, which is my passion. I'm excited to see the amazing things that my kids are doing as one goes off to college, one graduates from college. And we're empty nesters and, you know, more possibilities there. That'll be interesting. I think on the professional level, it's the school division is truly, truly like, should be enough to keep me fully engaged for a long time. But there's so much talent in that division that they don't need me all the time. The core division is really full swing, really, you know, kind of self running. No, you know, just great leadership on it in the you know, those places. I actually, in talking to you today, I saw something that I hadn't seen before, it never so clearly, which is more the, the not for profit, the governmental side, the helping bring people together in a more civic oriented way. It's always been a passion, it really is deeply connected to what I majored in, in college. And it's work that I do on the side with my kind of, I'm passionate about environmental issues, addressing climate change, because, you know, it's important that we have a planet that's sustainable if we're gonna do anything else. So. So I think, I think there's another another place for me another place for me to be able to build with executive function skills for not for profits, that are making the biggest difference in the world. So that that feels like something that maybe you helped me. You know, I've thought about it before. But as we've talked, I've realized, wow, I'm talking about it a lot. And I really, it really keeps resonating. So the schools were a big step on the way there. But there are so many good organizations that could use that, that kind of help in their processes. Yeah. So thank you.Hannah Choi 1:02:56And, yeah, you're welcome. And I would love for you to share a little bit about the work that you are doing for climate change. And I know you have you started an organization. Yeah. Website. Well,Michael Delman 1:03:07yeah, so it's called an hour a week. I think it's an hour a week.org. I'm gonna make sure to get that right. Because heck, wants to check it out. Yeah, it's an houraweek.org. And the, the essence, you know, could the essential idea behind it is I wanted to lower the price point of activism, lower the price point of making a difference. There are so many people that are like, Oh, my God, you know, the world is on fire, there's terrible problems. True, you know, you feel worse about it, though, if you think about it, and you talk about it, and you worry about any complaint about it, you don't do anything about it. But if you're putting in as little as one hour a week, or even possibly less, you know, it least then you can say, hey, it's true, it's a big old shit show out there in the world is really, you know, there are a lot of problems, but I'm doing a little a, you don't carry around that guilt that you just you don't need to be, you actually start to connect to other people. We have a a once a month meeting, it's literally one hour a month, not a week, one hour a month of actually meeting in a group. And so that's amazing. And, and so you're connecting to people and it gives you a sense of hope and inspiration that, okay, there's a lot of us and it's multiply. And then third, there are very specific simple actions to do between, you know, meetings. So each week, there's a couple of actions maybe it takes you five minutes or 10 minutes. If you want to put in a full hour go for it. You know, you want to put in more that's fine too. But that I just felt like my experience with the some of the environmental groups I've been involved in, are is has been, well you got to be really committed, and you got to know everything. As I know, most people don't know that much, and they're intimidating, it's intimidating, and you don't have a ton of time and you're trying to raise a couple of kids or, or whatever it is, and you got a full time job or two jobs and, and you don't want to make it elitist, or just for people that have retired. You want people that they just care. And they see, oh, there's connections between climate and social justice, and you know, and poverty and, and people who are dispossessed, and you know, and the air that we're breathing, that's, you know, all the stuff. I want it to be a place where you don't have to be an expert, or have a huge amount of time. So, so that's what I'm, that's what I'm doing. It's, yeah, it feels feels really good to put some time into that. And, you know, use some of the executive function skills there to organize and have people name their commitments, things like that. So cool. Yeah, thanks for asking on that one.Hannah Choi 1:06:03Yeah. So if there's one thing that you could choose, for people to take away from the work that you've done from your life, from your experiences, what would you share? If it's possible, to narrow it down to one,Michael Delman 1:06:21Try not to die. Like, you'll really, the longer you get to live more, more, more fun and more of a difference you can make. Other than stay alive. You know, I'd say, I'd say it see your life is a journey. It's, you know, it's old, it's old wisdom, but there's a reason it's that wisdoms there. The Station by Hastings, this story about being, you know, you're on a train, and you can't wait to get to the station where there's going to be some big party and, and you're like, cursing the trip, because it's taking so long, and you know, what, that the station at the end, that's the end, like the station is actually the end. So don't be in a rush, like, you know, enjoy the scenery, and, you know, connect to the people on the train, you know, and stop and enjoy. And I realized that that's not really so particular to executive function skills. But I think it's, it's really fundamentally the orientation that will allow us to enjoy our lives and make the most difference in the world, which are kind of my two fundamentals is, you know, pay attention to this being a process. You know, and, and, and make revisions along the way. You know, I had a student who, and I wrote about this in my book for parents, the your kids going to be okay book, where he had a very small amount of homework to do over the weekend, it was literally half an hour. And he didn't do it, and, and ended up getting a zero. His parents were disappointed, like, we went through what were all the costs, you know, and, and he listed them out, you know, all the cons to doing it the way he did it, or didn't do it. And, and I said, Well, let me ask you to at least have a lovely weekend, you know, or did you think about he said, Oh, I thought about I said, like, once? Or twice a little bit? He's like, No, probably, like, 30 times. Yeah. And I said, Oh, so you had a choice to either just do a half an hour and be done with it? Or think about it 30 times, let it ruin your weekend. Kind of like, like, you know, yeah, like in a kind of a low level way, kind of get your weekend, all weekend. And that's what you want with it. He's like, Yeah, probably not the best choice. I think, you know, sometimes you got to bite the bullet a little bit, eat the frog, whatever. But I think if you understand, like, there's this, there's this journey, and some of it's not what I want, and I can't control that. Just take that, do that little bit. And, and then enjoy the parts that you can, you know, I think that's just, it's just a better way to be, you're just gonna enjoy your life a lot more. You know, don't, don't hang on and try to make it just so and hope that you never die. You know, just enjoy the enjoy the journey. That's what you got, you know, and, you know, except Except some of the challenges that we have along the way. So that's, that's what I got for you, Hannah.Hannah Choi 1:09:49I love it. So where can our listeners find more about you and more about what you have maybe written? You want to share a little bit about what you've written?Michael Delman 1:09:58Oh, gosh, well, Let's see, I mean, the first thing would be the book, Your Kid's Gonna Be Okay. That's, you know, building executive function skills and the age of attention. And I do think that that's a really good one, particularly for parents, sometimes for teachers, even adults could get something out of that just for themselves, because there are a lot of tools in their, their various blogs and podcasts and things right on our website beyond booksmart.com where they click on those interviews, things like that. If you know they want more, if they haven't had enough yet. There are blog posts that I've written that are that are there, you know, that I think that those are the places to begin, you know, if they're interested in working more kind of through a corporate level or you know, that they can reach out through the company and we'll we'll find a way to get in touch. All right,Hannah Choi 1:10:54and I just I want to I do want to plug your book a little bit because I love how you you wrote it in such a way that's so accessible and so easy to read. And I think so many quote unquote self help books out there are can tend to feel very heavy and, and maybe there's like a lot of jargon or you know, this topics that feel beyond our scope of knowledge, and I felt like you really made it very presentable and1:11:19meant to be conversational, but yes, yeah,Hannah Choi 1:11:21yeah. Yeah. I love that. Thanks. Appreciate it. Thank you so much, Michael.Michael Delman 1:11:25What a pleasure!Hannah Choi 1:11:26Thank you for joining me. Hannah Choi 1:11:29And that's our show for today. I want to thank Michael Delman for joining me and I hope you enjoyed his stories and wisdom and were able to find a nugget of gold in there for yourself. As Michael says, He wishes for people to be able to see their life as a journey. So thank you for taking time out of your day to listen and for including me and focus forward on your own journey. If you like what you're hearing, please share focus. Where are we with your colleagues, your family and your friends. We love it when our listeners help spread the word about the importance of executive function skills for finding satisfaction and happiness in life. You can subscribe to Focus Forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. You can sign up for our newsletter at www dot beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening!

In today’s episode, we're exploring the Fxecutive function skill of time management. Peg Dawson, my favorite executive function guru and a former guest on Focus Forward, defines the skill of time management as “the capacity to estimate how much time one has, how to allocate it, and how to stay within time limits and deadlines”. She continues by arguing that this process starts with one simple insight: understanding that time is important in the first place! As an Executive Function coach, time management is a skill that comes up as a challenge for pretty much all of my clients. Over the years, my clients and I have worked together to develop systems that help them take control over time and how it impacts their lives. Today, I’m going to share with you a 4-step system that I’ve developed that can help you build time-management strategies that you'll be able to use for life.Time Management BasicsHow To Master Time Management – ADHD Skills Part 1 - Dr. Tracey Marks6 Simple Motivation Hacks for a More Productive LifeTime Management Tip: The UnscheduleTransition from High School to College: Time Management is Key15 Practical Ways to Improve Time Management Skills - Lifehack3 Time Management Tips That Actually Work - James ClearBig Rocks Video with Stephen CoveyEisenhower Matrix/Covey QuadrantsHow to Use Covey's 4 Quadrants Matrix for Effective Time ManagementThe Eisenhower Matrix: How to prioritize your to-do listAvoid the "Urgency Trap" with the Eisenhower MatrixLearn how to use Stephen Covey's 4 time quadrants to maximize your productivityHow to be More Productive and Eliminate Time Wasting Activities by Using the “Eisenhower Box” - James ClearManaging Phone DistractionThese simple steps will help you stop checking your phone so much10 Strategies to Limit Your Teen's Screen TimeOfftimeDial D for Distracted | The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie SantosScreen Use and Screen Addiction Resource PageTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an Executive Function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Before I dive into this episode, I wanted to let you know that you can listen and subscribe with ease to Focus Forward on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify, and all the others. We'd love your help and sharing our podcasts too. So if you know someone who would benefit from our content, please share it with them. Our goal is to provide useful tips and life changing inspiration to as many people as possible, so thanks for your help. Hannah Choi 00:46In today's episode, I'm exploring the executive function skill of time management. Peg Dawson, my favorite executive function guru and a former guest on Focus Forward defines the skill of time management as the capacity to estimate how much time one has, how to allocate it, and how to stay within time limits and deadlines. She says it also involves a sense that time is important. As an executive function coach, time management is a skill that comes up as a challenge for pretty much all of my clients. Over the years, my clients and I have worked together to develop systems that help them take control over time, and how it impacts their lives. Hannah Choi 01:32Today, I'm going to share with you a system that I've developed that can help with this, it's got four components. First, figure out your relationship with time. Second, learn how to prioritize and then do some prioritizing. Third, implement tools and strategies that support your time management. And lastly, and most importantly, reflect on what you've done and modify your approach as needed. Hannah Choi 02:01If you're like, Man, I don't want to do all four steps, I just want to skip ahead to the tools and strategy section. That's okay, I get it. But hear me out for one sec. Yes, diving in and implementing tools and strategies right now will help in the short term, it will. But I truly believe that in order to make lasting change, and improve your time management skills for the long run, and you know, just like make it easier for your future self, you got to put in the time to do the other work. That being said, if you're still not convinced, skip ahead to about 12 minutes to hear the section on tools and strategies, I fully support your decision. And this next section will be waiting for you if you decide to come back for more. Hannah Choi 02:44All right, so if you're still with me, yay. Before we start, you just might want to get a pen and paper so you can write some ideas down. Taking notes is not just for students, it saves a ton of time for your future self and can absolutely help with being more effective with your time. Okay, so let's start with my first step, which as I said, is figuring out your relationship with time. And I don't mean that like weird part of a relationship where you're not sure if you're just friends, or if you've moved into them more-than-friends zone. Or you can actually just introduced them now as your boyfriend or girlfriend. I just mean how do you experience time? When you're doing stuff? Do you run out of time? Do you think things will take way longer than they actually do? Do you have a good idea of how time passes? Or do you have no idea that time is the thing at all. Learning about your relationship with time is valuable because it can help you plan and prioritize your day. If you know that you always run out of time when you're doing work for a particular class, then you know, you have to budget a little more time for those assignments. For example, I noticed that while I am actually quite good at time management, I do get overwhelmed when I have many things to do that are back to back. So I learned to always add 15 minutes to something to give me a little break before switching to a new activity. There are some good tools you can use to figure out this whole time relationship business. One of our favorites here at beyond booksmart is the BVA, which stands for budgeted versus actual. And this tool can help you figure out pretty darn quickly if you are an over or an under estimator of time. All right, so what you do is you pick a task. Well, ideally, you do this with a bunch of different tasks in different areas of your life. But if that feels like too much, that's okay. Just pick one thing. Okay, let's pick unloading the dishwasher. So you make a guess at how long it'll take you to unload the dishwasher. The then like start a timer and unload it at your regular speed but no rushing here, just regular speed. And then you remember to stop the timer. This is where I always get hung up and check the time was your guests over or under the actual time it took you, and by how much it can really help to be scientific about this. So if you can get yourself to time other tasks, I really encourage you to do it. But if not, just try to pay attention to whether you seem to run out of time or have time left over. It can also help to pay attention to what kind of tasks seem to take longer than you think they will. For example, tasks that require deep thinking and concentration, maybe physical tasks, and enjoyable or dreaded tasks. You might experience time differently with different things. So noticing these patterns can really help. Hannah Choi 05:44Okay, so that's how we can use a BVA to test our relationship with time. And later on, I'll explain how we can use a BVA to help us prioritize and plan. Some other quick ideas for learning how you experience time, you could wear a watch with a timer function, or use a visual timer. You can find them online that they're called time timers. And those can show you the visual passing of time. And then you can see how you feel when you really see that time passing. You can also look at your phone usage data. I had a client whose jaw literally dropped when I had him look at this, he had no idea he had been spending that much time on his phone. I will never forget the look on his face the poor guy. You can also ask the people in your life that you trust to see what their opinion is about your relationship with time. I admit this can put you in a very vulnerable spot, but it might be a worthwhile exercise. Hannah Choi 06:43Okay, so now that we figured out if time is our boyfriend or not, let's learn how to prioritize. Prioritizing is extremely important if you want to be better at time management. When you learn to prioritize, you can more easily plan your day with intention. Doing this will help you find it easier to focus and be more present. As you go through your day, you'll likely be more efficient, and hopefully, you'll feel less overwhelmed by all the things you have to do. Hannah Choi 07:14Before I dive into some tools for learning how to prioritize let's take a nerdy look at the word priority. The etymology of the word priority is pretty interesting. It comes from the word prioritize, which basically means the most important thing. And up until the mid 20th century, the word had no plural, you could just have one most important thing. Over time, people began having more than one most important thing. And when we have too many most important things life can become hard to manage, it can be hard to focus and we might lose sight of what truly is important. Hannah Choi 07:56There are two great activities that can help you figure out what your most important things are, and how to make sure that you can fit them into your day. The first is the big rocks activity. You may have seen the video of the professor showing his class how you can fit more rocks, pebbles and sand into a jar if you start with the big rocks first. These rocks represent your most important things, which we plan first because as you can see, if you put the smaller things in life first, in this situation, the pebbles in the sand, you won't be able to fit your rocks. If you have no idea what I'm talking about. You can find the link to this video in the show notes. Hannah Choi 08:43Another fantastic exercise for figuring out priorities is the Eisenhower matrix. It's also known as Covey quadrants. This tool helps you figure out what things in life are urgent, not urgent, important and not important. Covey assigned quadrant numbers to the matrix. So in quadrant one, you have important and urgent tasks like studying for a test. Finishing up that presentation for your boss or signing up your child for that art class that usually fills up in minutes. In quadrant two are your important but not urgent tasks, such as exercising and spending time with your family. Quadrant three are the dreaded urgent but not important to you tasks. Phone calls that interrupt your work time emails are just things you feel like you should do because someone else asked you to do them. And then quadrant four is not urgent and not important. Doom scrolling, binge watching TV getting lost in social media. Those are all in this quadrant. Hannah Choi 09:52I could do a whole separate episode on strategies for managing the tasks within each quadrant. So unfortunately there is no way I can cover it all in today's episode. But I encourage you to try this exercise, assign the things you do all day into each quadrant and see where your priorities lie. And then check out the show notes for more ideas on how to manage them. Basically, it comes down to doing the quadrant one things, delegating the quadrant three things so that you can have more time for the quadrant two things. And quadrant four, that quadrant can actually be really helpful. If you find yourself spending a ton of time on quadrant four things, it might be your brains way of telling you it doesn't like how things are escaping to quadrant four may mean that you need to pay attention to what's going on in the other quadrants and maybe make some major shifts in your life. I've also heard of this matrix used with the qualities of productive, unproductive, necessary and unnecessary if these terms resonate with you more try this exercise using those qualities instead. Hannah Choi 11:07In addition to figuring out your priorities, there are some simple tricks you can use to prioritize and plan your day. A simple to do list with the most important task written at the top can work wonders. Some people like to start with the easy things to get the ball rolling. Usually I start with the worst thing first. Because if I don't get that worst thing out of the way, it just stares at me from my to do list with its beady little eyes and just ruins the rest of my day. Regardless of whether you start with the easy stuff, or the hard, the key is just to be realistic and not put too many things on that list. Hannah Choi 11:44You can also use that BVA I mentioned earlier when prioritizing the things you need to do in your day. When you use the BVA to time yourself, you'll then know how long things will take. And you'll know if you need to add extra time. And this will help you know when you can fit them into your day. Hannah Choi 12:03Once you know what your most important things are, how long things will take and what your relationship with time is like you can build routines into your day that are based on all this information. The more we can learn about ourselves and how we prioritize and plan, the more effective our time management will be. And we don't have to do this alone. There are tons of tools and strategies and resources out there that can support you in your quest to manage your time more effectively. Like I've said in pretty much every episode, there's no way I can cover every time management tool in this one episode. So I'll highlight a few and then I encourage you to check out the show notes for more ideas. Hannah Choi 12:46The first thing I recommend is to consider using a planner or a digital calendar if you're not already using one. Some people use them just for remembering things like dentist appointments, work schedules or other commitments like that. They can be especially useful for families or groups who are managing multiple people's schedules. Some people find planners and calendars helpful for scheduling what they'll do during their entire day. Ally, who shared her calendar strategy in our episode all about ADHD does this. She said she doesn't always follow it exactly. But she likes having it as a guide, and definitely gets more done on those days than on the days that she doesn't schedule it out. Hannah Choi 13:28Two really simple tools that can be used together are the to do list that I just mentioned, and the Pomodoro Technique as you work through that list. The Pomodoro Technique is a method of working in chunks of time. For example, you would work for 25 minutes, take a five minute break, and then go back to work. I also encourage my clients to pay attention to diminishing returns if they prefer not to use a timer. Diminishing Returns is an economic principle that can be applied here. In this situation, it means that the effort you're putting in no longer benefits you as it did when you first started the activity. So say you're reading and you realize that you have read the same line over and over again, it's probably time to take a break or switch activities. Hannah Choi 14:18There are a lot of tech options out there for supporting your time management. I am a big fan of timers and alarms. In addition to using a timer for the Pomodoro Technique, I use it to remind me of the passage of time. If I have a big project that I'm enjoying working on and I know that I need to stop at a certain point to go pick up one of my kids or attend a meeting, and I don't want to be interrupted by repeatedly checking the clock. I'll set an alarm for when I should stop working. I can then work without looking at the clock. Hannah Choi 14:51I also use calendar alerts to help myself as well. You can change the default Event Reminder to whatever works best for you. I have mine set for one hour, 30 minutes and 10 minutes, which sounds like a lot, but it really works for me. And in addition to calendar alerts, you can use digital reminders or tasks. both Apple and Google have these features. So if you're not already using them, I encourage you to check them out. And if you wear a smartwatch, you can configure it so that your calendar and task notifications pop up on your watch. This can be super helpful because you can see the notification without picking up your phone. Hannah Choi 15:31And speaking of phones, being mindful of your phone use, and keeping that in check is a big part of time management these days. Falling into the Instagram trap or getting stuck in some other Quadrant for activity is an annoyingly effective way of derailing your time management progress. Take a look at your phone usage and consider setting limits on how much time you can spend in apps that feel like time sucks. Research shows that just having your phone near you, even if you can't see it can impact your productivity. Try to experiment and leave your phone in the other room. Are you more productive and manage your time better when your phone's not around? Hannah Choi 16:10My last suggestion is to create a SMART goal for situations where you need to be very efficient with your time. If you aren't familiar with smart goals, I'll explain them for you here. SMART goals are an organized and thoughtful way of creating a system to help you reach a goal by making that goal more meaningful. Making goals more meaningful increases the chance of achieving them. SMART is an acronym and stands for specific, measurable, achievable, yet ambitious, relevant and realistic, and time bound. You thoughtfully consider each step in the process and write down details about each. First you define your specific goal. Then you determine how you will measure your progress. Then you'll describe how it's both achievable and also ambitious. Then you explain how it is relevant in your life and how it is realistic for you to attempt this goal right now. And lastly, you'll set a time goal a deadline. Once you've completed this process, you use other tools and strategies to support yourself as you work towards your goal and executive function coaching colleague of mine here at Beyond BookSmart has used SMART goals to help her clients create routines that make mornings easier. Working through a SMART goal in this situation has multiple benefits. At the most basic level, her clients have a less stressful morning, which is just a much better way to start the day. Filling out each step of the SMART goal helps our clients explore their relationship with time, and they can use it to reflect on the strategies that they're using to make their mornings more efficient. Hannah Choi 18:02Reflecting on what we're working on is critical to making lasting change. And this is my last step in learning how to master your own time management. Reflecting on your efforts helps you learn about what works and what doesn't. figuring all this out helps you fine tune the strategies that you're using. And this reflection process can look different for everyone. If you're more of a data person, the scientific thinker, you might want to track your progress using a habit tracker. You can learn about this in episode three of Focus Forward. You can take notes, or just write down your thoughts about your experience using different tools, you could revisit that BVA and retime yourself to see if things are taking a different amount of time than they used to. Hannah Choi 18:51If being scientific about it feels like too much. And that's okay, because not everyone thinks that way. You can just kind of pay attention to how you feel. Do you feel less tired at the end of the day? Because you're managing your time better? Do you notice that you're crossing off more things on your to do list? Are you arriving at meetings or appointments on time more often than you were before? Do you feel like a better friend or partner because you have more time to spend with your loved ones? There are lots of things you can notice just by paying a little more attention to how things are going for you. And once you've made some observations about your time management, you might want to tweak certain tools or add a new one or maybe even abandon a tool altogether. Or you might find that your system is working great. And then you can take yourself out for some ice cream as a reward. However you do it, do whatever is right for yourself. And that's what reflection is all about - learning about yourself and doing things the way they work for you.Hannah Choi 19:49And that is our show for today. I really hope you found some strategies in this episode that help you improve your time management skills. Even just taking a little step towards improvement will make a big difference. And thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying focus forward, please share it. As I said before, we would love that, you can subscribe to our podcast on Apple podcast, Google podcast, Spotify, and more. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast will let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share topics and information related to the episode. Thanks for listening!

October is ADHD awareness month, and given that half of our clients have ADHD, I knew there was something important we could offer the ADHD community this month with the podcast.From educators to parents, mental health specialists to doctors, too many people in all areas of society may not be fully aware of just how much ADHD can impact an individual’s life in ways both good and bad. So in today’s episode, I’ll be exploring many dimensions of ADHD in hopes of providing the wisdom you need to both overcome the challenges of ADHD, but also harness its hidden superpowers. We’ll dive into the unique qualities of the ADHD brain, how both ADHD medication and other non-medication activities may help, and how pairing them with tools and strategies that support executive function can change life with ADHD in incredible ways. Best of all, I’ll be sharing clips from conversations I had with three people who have learned to be successful alongside ADHD. Their experiences prove that ADHD can be a blessing instead of a curse - all it takes is the right approach and mindset. A big thank you to Dr. Theresa Cerulli for sharing her expertise on medication’s role in ADHD treatment, and Bob Shea for coloring the episode with his warmth, wit, and story. You can see more of their work in the show notes.Speaking of which... here are the show notes!ADHD FundamentalsADHD Success Kit by Beyond BookSmartFact Sheet: Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) TopicsWhat is ADHD? | CDC5 things parents and teachers need to know about ADHD - Harvard HealthADHD Fundamentals: What you need to succeed after a diagnosis, Beyond BookSmart Webinar with Thersa Cerulli, MDSchool Success Kit for Kids With ADHD - Child Mind Institute ADHD BrainsIt's All in Your Brain: The Structure of ADHDDefault Mode Network - an overview | ScienceDirect TopicsNorepinephrine: Dopamine’s Less Glamorous Wonder Twin | Psychology TodayIt's All in Your Brain: the Structure of ADHDADHD & the Brain2-Minute Neuroscience: ADHD - Youtube VideoThe Default Mode Network, Motivation, and AttentionThe ADHD Brain: Neuroscience Behind Attention DeficitADHD ResearchThe World Federation of ADHD International Consensus Statement: 208 Evidence-based conclusions about the disorderADHD and GenderADHD in girls and boys – gender differences in co-existing symptoms and executive function measuresThe Intersection of ADHD and Gender Diversity - Mental Health Therapy, Psychotherapy, Counseling, Coaching, Psychiatry Blog Post By Holly MilesA Review of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder in Women and Girls: Uncovering This Hidden Diagnosis - PMCADHD and Gender Identity: How They're Linked and Tips for ParentsADHD Diagnosis SupportHow to Get an ADHD Diagnosis - Child Mind InstituteSymptoms and Diagnosis of ADHD | CDCADHD Symptom ManagementThe Exercise Prescription for ADHD What Should You Treat First: ADHD or Mental Health Challenges?Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy and ADHD - CHADDCognitive Behavioral Therapy for ADHD: Techniques and OptionsNon-drug treatments for adult ADHD - Harvard HealthShout-outs to our guests!Theresa's PracticeBob Shea's WorkTranscriptHannah Choi 00:01So what's something positive about having ADHD?Andrew 00:04So many things! Honestly, I feel like personally, my brain has allowed me to experience the world in ways that most other people don't. Because I don't focus on the things that people asked me to focus on. And I focus on the things that I want to focus on and my focus can be drawn to many different things. And so having a brain that's able to fire off that quickly, has been truly a gift.Hannah Choi 00:36Hi, everyone, and welcome to focus forward and executive function podcast, where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi, the person you just heard speaking is Andrew, a client of mine who has ADHD. October is ADHD Awareness Month. And this episode is all about that. I'm going to explore a bunch of different aspects of ADHD. And I hope this episode answers any questions you might have about it. Today we will learn about what happens in ADHD brains that makes them function differently. I'll also share some information about ADHD medication and other non medication activities, and how pairing them with tools and strategies that support executive function can really help give people with ADHD some confidence. These days, more and more people are finding answers in receiving an ADHD diagnosis. They're getting explanations for some of the challenges they have faced in their lives. If you've been wondering if you or your child may have ADHD, I'll give you some tips on where to start if you're interested in pursuing testing. Hannah Choi 01:48Throughout the episode, I'll be sharing clips from conversations that I had with three people who have ADHD. Andrew, who you heard in the beginning of the episode is an executive function coaching client of mine. He lives outside of New York City and he's 35 years old. He was diagnosed with ADHD about two years ago. Ally is a coaching client of my colleague Christine Keller. Ally is attending college in Europe, and she was diagnosed when she was 16. I'll also share some clips from my conversation with Bob Shea, who is a children's author who has ADHD. I interviewed him for episode 10 of focus forward. If you haven't listened to that one yet, check it out. He's hilarious and super honest about his life with ADHD. Hannah Choi 02:35Before I show my nerdy side by exploring how the ADHD brain works, let's look at the symptoms of ADHD. ADHD can be broken down into three types, all of which have slightly different and sometimes overlapping symptoms. Okay, so first, we have predominantly hyperactive people with this type of ADHD might fidget and talk a lot, they may have trouble sitting still for long and waiting their turn. They may be impulsive, interrupt others or grab things from people. Interestingly, they may also have more accidents and injuries than those without this type of ADHD. Next up, is inattentive type ADHD. And this often shows up as mainly challenges with the executive function skill of attention. It may be hard for people with this type of ADHD to finish tasks, and they may miss details. It can be difficult for them to follow instructions or keep up with what's happening in a conversation. And they might be easily distracted and lose things or forget the details of their daily routines. You know that term add it's an older and now outdated term for this inattentive type of ADHD. Lastly, is what's called combined ADHD. People with this type have characteristics from both of the other types. Hannah Choi 04:00Okay, Yay, it's brain time. I think it's really, really important to understand the ADHD brain, because ADHD truly does start in the brain. And for many people, just knowing what's going on in their brain can help them feel better about their challenges. ADHD is not the result of laziness is not the result of how you were raised by your parents, or your socio economic level. And many studies have been done to determine what causes ADHD. And for most people, it's likely a combination of mostly genetics and maybe some environmental causes. But there's really no way to determine exactly what caused it for each person. And only correlations can be made from the results of the studies that have been done. So no exact cause has been or probably ever will be determined. You can find out more about this research in the show notes. Hannah Choi 04:58So, now that we know that ADHD is a brain thing, let's find out exactly what's going on in there. People with ADHD have challenges with executive function skills. executive function skills originate in the prefrontal cortex in our brain. And if you've listened to the procrastination episode, you might remember some of this brain science lesson. So the neurotransmitters norepinephrine and dopamine play a role in causing ADHD symptoms. Dopamine is more well known because it's the brain's pleasure chemical. And norepinephrine is the chemical that gets your brain going, kind of like adrenaline. But for the brain, the transmitters, norepinephrine and dopamine play a role in causing ADHD symptoms. Norepinephrine is the chemical that gets your brain going. It's kind of like adrenaline, but for the brain, it tells our brain to start paying attention. Dopamine is well known because it's the brain's pleasure chemical. As you may remember, from the procrastination episode, when we do something pleasurable, dopamine is released and makes us want to do the thing again. So if we put hard work and effort into something, and we get rewarded, dopamine is produced. And then this dopamine makes us want to put the effort in again, because the reward feels good. For people with ADHD, less dopamine and less norepinephrine make it to the regions of the brain involved with motivation and attention. And that makes it harder to stay motivated and focused. Hannah Choi 06:36Let's dig a little deeper into the ADHD brain. So we have this network of regions in our brain called the default mode network. And this network is active when we're daydreaming, you know, when you're like not focused on anything. It's also active when we think about ourselves or others. And it's active when we plan for the future or remember the past. And then when it's time to focus on something, we inhibit this default mode network, and then turn on the networks that are used for attention and cognitive control. So studies have shown that it may be that people with ADHD have dysregulation in the default mode network, and just have a more difficult time turning it off when it's time to focus. And what do you know, these networks are all located in or involved the frontal lobe or the prefrontal cortex, which as we know, is where our executive function skills originate from. Hannah Choi 07:37Gender also comes into play with ADHD symptoms and diagnosis. Three to one, gender comes into play with ADHD symptoms and diagnosis. ADHD can show up differently in cisgender males and females. Unfortunately, there is a severe lack of research on how ADHD impacts people who do not identify as their birth gender. And there absolutely needs to be more diversity of gender within the research done in the field of ADHD, well in all research, really, and I think especially mental health and related topics. So today, I will do my best to share what has been learned in the research thus far. And I really encourage you to reach out to your state representatives and ask them for more research to be done for the underresearched population.Hannah Choi 08:31Okay, so for convenience, I'm gonna say boys and girls, but please know that I also mean cisgender men and women, more boys are diagnosed with ADHD than girls. This may be because the symptoms that boys usually have, such as hyperactivity and impulsivity are more external, and they more obviously impact their day to day lives and the people around them. Girls usually have more internal behaviors such as difficulty maintaining attention and remembering things, and they often develop strategies to hide these challenges. Sometimes girls also have anxiety and depression. So ADHD behaviors are missed, and then the child is misdiagnosed. Sometimes girls who are misdiagnosed don't find out until much later in life that ADHD was actually the cause of their childhood challenges. societal expectations can also come into play here as well. How many times have you heard or maybe you even said so yourself that those rowdy boys over there are just boys being boys, hyperactive or impulsive behavior in boys is more accepted, and in general, society expects girls to be more controlled, so they develop coping skills to fit into these expectations. Again, here's another reason why many women are not diagnosed until adulthood. In regards to the impact on executive function skills, studies have found that in general, there are not too many differences between boys and girls with ADHD. executive function skills seem to be similarly influenced by it in both. Hannah Choi 10:19So now that we know the brain science behind ADHD, and the common symptoms that may appear in those with ADHD, and how it can affect girls and boys differently, it's time to take a look at some strategies people can use to manage it. First, I'm going to talk about medication. And then we'll dive into some non medication strategies you can use to level the playing field for your ADHD brain. As I've said before, and I will say again, and again, using medication is a personal choice. And whatever choice people make about medication is okay. As an executive function coach, I work with a lot of people who have ADHD, and I always support my clients' decisions about medication, whatever they are without judgment. We recently held a webinar on what to do after a diagnosis of ADHD. And our guest was Theresa Cerrulli and Teresa is a psychiatrist and an expert in ADHD diagnosis. Theresa helped us understand the ins and outs of ADHD medication. Remember how we talked earlier about how the ADHD brain works differently? Theresa explained that since people with ADHD have underactive frontal lobe circuits, their brains require a higher level of stimulation to function properly. And here's where the role of medication comes in to provide that stimulation. And you might be wondering, why would you want to stimulate a person who already has high energy? And Teresa shares how this works:Theresa Cerulli, MD 11:50I get this question all the time. Why in the world, would you talk about stimulant medications for somebody who's already hyperactive and impulsive? That's kind of counterintuitive. And the reason is, because you're not trying to stimulate the whole person, you want to stimulate that frontal part of the brain that Its job is to help us focus, concentrate, built around, filter out background noises, organize, and plan, your trying to turn it on to do its job most efficiently and effectively.Hannah Choi 12:22Now that we know how ADHD medication works, let's listen to what Teresa has to say about the choice to use medication.Theresa Cerulli, MD 12:29So medications, I will say it should be something to at least discuss with your providers medication isn't for everyone, but should at least be considered for everyone is how I would how I would think about it. And mostly because of the data looking in this was these were NIMH funded studies, not pharmaceutical funded studies years ago, looking at the role of behavioral interventions versus motivate medication intervention interventions versus combined in treating ADHD. And the so the surprise was that medication interventions, compared with behavioral interventions alone, medication invent interventions were more significantly impactful. And then we all made the assumption that the combined medication and behavioral treatment would be even more impactful and which was true, but not to the extent that they had anticipated. So it does look like a main a main part of the treatment intervention should be medication should at least be considered this is neural neuro biologically based. And the sometimes it's hard to make headway in your behavioral strategies. Those strategies become hard to learn, and or utilize if you're also not not working from the inside out and helping with the neurobiological aspects in terms of what's happening in the brain.Hannah Choi 13:55Some people may be okay without medication, and others might rely on it. And like I said, before, whatever your choice is, that's your choice. I really encourage you to do what works best for you and your family. And like Teresa said, at least have the conversation with your doctor about medication before making a decision either way to learn a lot more about ADHD, three to one. To learn a lot more about ADHD medication, including non stimulant medications, you can listen to the full webinar in which Theresa explains the different options that are available. And you can find the link to that in the show notes. When I asked Andrew and Ally about what role medication plays in their lives, they both said that it helps them by allowing them to focus and making it easier to take advantage of the non medication strategies that they use. They both also feel that the medication alone is not the answer.Andrew 14:54I was immediately prescribed Adderall and I was like, I don't want Adderall. I was like give me strategies. I won't come Watching I want like something that I can like learn and apply. I don't want to have to just like take a drug because I knew the problems weren't going to go away just because I was taking Adderall. Right? If anything, Adderall is going to make it worse, because I was just I was going to focus, but I was going to be focusing in the wrong ways. And so the combination of the strategies and the medication have been really powerful. And I think for me, the medication, it's just clarity, I go on Tik Tok every once in a while, and like, there's the ADHD memes, where it's like the five songs playing at one time, right? Like, that's what it feels like. And sometimes that's where I need to be, that's a great place for my head to be, right. But sometimes, I don't, sometimes I just, I need to get stuff done. And it's just nice to know that it's there. I would say, I don't take medication every day. But I've changed my perspective on medication. And I think having having the strategies to fall back on, and then having the medication to fall back on that that kind of double layer of protection, if you will. It's been it's been huge.Ally 16:09I mean, I didn't get on medication until later in the high school game, when I think it could have helped me a bit earlier. So I was in my senior year of high school, when I started taking medication. And it really was a game changer for me, in the sense where I think it was one of the first times in my life, I felt like actual focus. I was like, oh my god, this is the hype like this is what people have been talking about, like sitting down for a few hours and getting work done and feeling like I'm like tunnel vision doing my work right now. And it was a really, I think, a really great feeling to feel that you kind of have control of that. And kind of taking that into your own hands again, and not letting like concentration problems, manifest that for you and being like, okay, I can do a workout with this. But I do I mean, I'm a believer that with most problems that can be treated with medication, it has to be supplemented through a holistic approach. I mean, maybe it's just that my mom is from Latin America. So I think there's different ideas that are on medication. I mean, anywhere outside of the US even living here, I've realized medication is very much like a last resort situation. And I used to be very against that when I was trying to get medication, I was like, just give me it like helped me out. But now I really, really see the benefit of having a holistic approach. Because I don't think I would be able to do many of the things that I do today without the help that I get from beyond booksmart, for example, or other executive function skills that I've developed outside of medication. And also I mean, I think this is a good thing to clarify. But I the medication I take I don't take it I think in normal way people do with ADHD I have short release, and I only take it when I need to. So on days I really need to study or like exams. So it only ends up being like one or two times a week at most. Definitely more concentrated towards like the studying weeks and final exam weeks. But yeah, I just think a supplemental approaches like they have to go hand in hand if not I don't think the total thing will ever be resolved.Hannah Choi 18:29Bob Shea, the children's author that I interviewed for episode 10 shared a similar experience. He explained that before he started taking ADHD medication, he would really miss out on experiences with his family, because he was always trying to play catch up with what he had missed at work all week. So we didn't get to hang out with him on the weekends. He shared with me how the medication made a huge difference for him.Bob Shea 18:53The medication allowed me to make use of the systems I had been trying to put in place because it was always planners, it's always calendars, planners. How do I do this? How do I do this. And once I took the medication, I was able to do all the things. And everything fell into place. It's all it's all a bit. It's not just oh, it took a pill and I was fun. It was it was a framework of things. And knowing that you're even now I'm like, You're bad at this. So you have to do this more than other people do.Hannah Choi 19:31The most important takeaway from all three of these people is that they did not use the medication alone. The medication helps them take advantage of and be better about using the non medication strategies they've learned. And there are an infinite number of strategies out there to support the areas that challenge people with ADHD. So in the interest of time, and my sanity, I'm just going to explore a few of these strategies today. And not all of them that I'm going to talk about are going to be helpful to everyone But if you have ADHD actually, if you're just a person, you might find these helpful. But if you have ADHD, they'll likely be extra helpful. And please have a listen to our previous episodes, especially the one on procrastination and the one on habit tracking for some other ideas. And then in my next episode, I'm going to be coming at you with ideas for improving your time management skills.Hannah Choi 20:25But back to this episode. Before we dive into specific tools and strategies, we need to talk about two really important things that people with ADHD should consider adding to their lives - therapy and exercise. Therapy is definitely something to look into because it can help with anxiety and depression. And it can also reduce ADHD symptoms. Cognitive behavior therapy, which is also called CBT, has especially been shown in studies to be very helpful in reducing symptoms. You can learn more about the benefits of therapy in our show notes. And I encourage you to ask your doctor for support in identifying a therapist who has some experience supporting people with ADHD. Hannah Choi 21:09All right now about that exercise. Ally, Bob and Andrew all shared that exercise, it makes a huge difference for them in managing their ADHD symptoms. It makes sense to me, exercise increases neurotransmitters in the brain, including dopamine and norepinephrine. So in addition to all the other benefits that exercise provides, your brain also gets a nice boost of those chemicals involved with motivation and attention. Studies have shown that exercise improved executive function in kids with ADHD and more research needs to be done on adults with ADHD. But the consensus seems to be that exercise is pretty much the number one thing you can do for yourself. It improves your memory and provides opportunities to add structure to your day, and just gives you something to focus on. And it even gives you a chance to practice some mindfulness. Ally shared with me how running has benefitted her life greatly.Ally 22:08I really like running both as like a place to put in my energy but also a place to kind of practice mindfulness, especially as someone with ADHD like it's a great way to like process emotions and feelings and everything you're taking in throughout the day. I mean, I think it also applies for someone without ADHD as well. I mean, I'm very pro-running.Hannah Choi 22:27Okay, so we now know that medicine, should you choose to use it, therapy and exercise are all super helpful. In addition to these, I think building systems to support planning and time management for people with ADHD is also critical for success and satisfaction in their lives. My colleagues and I see evidence of this in our clients all the time. My Podcast Producer and editor Sean Potts, who joined me in Episode Four to contribute his experience with ADHD as a child shared with me that he relies on Google Calendar and an STM. And the STM is a tool I talked about in our episode on procrastination. And it helps you break down the individual steps or tasks that are involved in a project, or things that you need to do in your day. And then once you've created a list of those steps, or tasks, you figure out how long each one will probably take. And then you map it out on your calendar or your planner, Allie shared a similar love for planning things ahead of time and using her Google Calendar.Ally 23:33Just those tools and those kind of like systems and plays have helped me tremendously just add structure and add clarity to things that can just seem like a lot. Just for example, like organizing, study work just writing down. I mean, before every semester, I will write down like all the assignments I will need to do by week, just so that I know that when it hits like week four, and I don't want to look up what work I have in the syllabus. I already have it there. Or for me like recently, Google calendaring has been a game changer like total game changer. Just having like, kind of a list of like, Okay, at this time I have breakfast at this time, I will go to the gym at this time, I will shower it seems a bit extreme. But I think the big thing is if I get off track, not blaming myself at all, but having it more as a guide and a resource to look back to because getting off track is fine. And it's kind of like a natural thing anyone would do with or without ADHD. But being able to return to a routine is the thing that I think a lot of people struggle with that it's been super helpful.Hannah Choi 24:43Andrew also uses his calendar for part of the system that he's created, which starts with the process of breaking large tasks down into smaller chunks. For him, this is the key to success, so he spends much of his time breaking things down. He then and adds those smaller tasks that he's created to his calendar. And he has found a great side benefit to doing that.Andrew 25:07The amount of energy it saves me in the long run is massive, and the amount of burnout that it saves me from two. And I think that's the other thing. allowing myself to rest, right knowing that when I have something on the calendar and be like, you can work on this tomorrow, you have time to work on this tomorrow. And if you're not here tomorrow, it's not gonna matter. Right. So like, you don't have to finish this today. You have time to work on it tomorrow. And if for whatever reason you can't, then you can't write but. But that has really allowed me to incorporate rest into what I do. Which has also been just hugely powerful.Hannah Choi 25:54Timers are very helpful for people with ADHD. Using a timer can both remind you of the passing of time, and also help you to focus knowing that there's an end coming up when that timer goes off. Bob loves using timers and shared with me how he uses them.Bob Shea 26:11I'll tell you something that timers are the key to everything. If if I use the timers, the days I'm I'm diligent about using the timers, that's a good day. If I'm just like, oh, just freestyle it today, it's like it's not a bad day, it's the works falls apart a lot easier those timers, because it gives you a little deadline.Hannah Choi 26:32Andrew uses timers to make a dreaded task easier. When he and I first met, he shared with me that there was nothing he hated more than doing the dishes, we work together to figure out a way to make doing them less awful for him. And to he shared this update with me about it. Andrew 26:51I think one of the biggest things for me has been dishes, right? Like that has been, for the longest time, just the hardest thing for me, and I would do it, I would do the dishes. But it was always just like, physically painful for me to do the dishes. But I think like doing a bunch of different things, I think timing myself for a while and realizing that it actually doesn't take that long for me to do the dishes. And then I think setting a timer has also been helpful be like, you know, just do it for five minutes, and then stop if you don't want to keep doing it. And also realizing now that like I do feel better when I do it. So reminding myself of that.Hannah Choi 27:27Whatever strategies you use to create a system that supports you and your executive function challenges, it's important to remember that you own this process, and you can make it work for you. It may be different from other people's systems and you made needs more support in areas that your friends don't, you might have to ask for help more often. And that's okay. I loved what Ally had to say about this.Ally 27:51The biggest thing for me is overall finding what works, but not having shame and it being different than everyone else. Because I think the biggest thing I had to overcome in ADHD help and support was kind of the shame that I it wasn't the same that all my friends were going to do. And it wasn't the natural route I thought it should be. But ultimately, it's what helps me be successful and what helps me feel good about myself. And I don't think there should be any shame in that whatsoever. And I think kind of piecing that together for myself, at one point was super, super beneficial.Hannah Choi 28:34Ally and Andrew have both found invaluable support by working with an executive function coach. We coaches are trained to support people with executive function challenges by meeting them where they are, and helping them build these systems and habits into their day to day lives. And then they allow them to feel more confident in their ability to reach their goals. And having someone there that's on your side and understands your challenges can really help to make lasting change. You can find out more about our coaching on the beyond booksmart website, or you can just do a general search for executive function coaching on the internet. Hannah Choi 29:11Okay, so the last thing I'm going to cover today is the topic of how to get tested. If you think you or your child has ADHD, a good place to start is your child's pediatrician or your own primary physician. Testing can also be done by clinical psychologists, licensed social workers and psychiatrists. You can talk with the school psychologist at your child's school for help to there are more resources in the show notes for how to get the testing process started. It can be scary to put your kiddo or yourself out there, but it can also be the answer to many, many questions. Andrew shared his experience receiving his diagnosis. Andrew 29:51Being diagnosed was the greatest thing that ever happened to me because it allowed me to take action. I talked to a nurse practitioner and then I went and sat for like, it's very long, and you have to answer like 1000s of questions, go back to like, talk about your family history and all of that stuff. But I remember at the end of it, the woman that interviewed me for the diagnosis, she was like, oh, yeah, you, you clearly have ADHD. And she was like, let me kind of walk you through kind of what it is and how it works. And she walked me through, like, the brain structure and like, what happens in your brain and what ADHD is, and that was huge. That was massive. And I think that's what led me to coaching. And that's what, what enabled me to be like, Okay, I know what my problems are. But now I know what the source of the problem is. So I can do something about it. And I think being diagnosed has now allowed me to find some semblance of peace with the challenges that I face.Hannah Choi 30:53And Ally had a similar experience.Ally 30:55I wasn't diagnosed until I was 16, more or less, but I had experienced all the symptoms, I mean, more severely when I was younger, and kind of as it progressed more academically, through my whole life, so when I looked at the symptoms, and I wasn't really educated on ADHD, I genuinely and this is a bit sad, but I genuinely thought I was like, I'm just stupid. Like, I thought I had like some sort of IQ cap on myself. I was like, that's the only logical explanation. And once I got that diagnosis, I think I was able to do my own research and find sort of just validation in the diagnosis so that a lot of things clicked. And it just felt like, Okay, this is not like me being an intelligent in any way, whatever that means. It's just me, going down a different individual path and everyone else. And over time, I learned that there's no shame in that whatsoever, it actually makes you much, I think, well, much more well rounded and decent human.Hannah Choi 32:01Bob shared with me that the diagnosis explained everything for him. He said, This revelation, and the medication changed his life completely. Hannah Choi 32:11Before I go, I wanted to share that all three of my guests see some really positive aspects of their ADHD. Bob feels like his sense of humor is unique because of the unexpected ways his ADHD brain allows him to think. And Ally is really proud of the positive ways that ADHD affects her socially.Ally 32:31On a more positive note, I think it's affected my life with socially, I think I'm a very social person, I think, because I kind of have a lot of things going on in my head, I think I can be witty at times. And I don't know, it makes me feel like happy that I have this ability to kind of think on my feet a lot. And then kind of adding on to that problem solving. I think people with ADHD are inherently more creative. And I think people will learn any learning differences than the norm, are always going to have more creative thoughts and ideas. So I think when presented with a problem, I am proud that I can often think outside of the box a bit and think very much on my feet, which is something I'm proud of, with havingHannah Choi 33:16ADHD. Andrew shared a story about how he feels that ADHD is his superpower.Andrew 33:23I mean, it's my superpower in so many ways. And it's also my kryptonite. But I think understanding how to apply it has been has been key. So like an example of that. We went to the business partner and I went to the bank. And we were trying to open up our business account. And I was bored. We were waiting. And I was just I was sitting and I was just like waiting. And I was looking around and I was this was in New York City. And so I was just watching the people, right? And this guy like was standing outside the bank and like, he had his pants down below his bought no underwear. And I was just like, what the hell I was like, welcome to New York City. But very quickly, he came back. And because I had noticed them before, and I noticed him again. He came back and he started harassing a girl outside the bank. And I just immediately just ran up and, like, stopped the guy and like, chased him off. And but it was like, if I was if I was able to just focus on the bank account, I would have never even known the guy was there. I would have never even known that happened. I would have never seen it. But I feel like because I was bored because I was distracted because I was looking at all the things that were going on. I noticed that and I think like that, to me was a solidifying moment of like, you know what, there might be some sort of evolutionary adaptation purpose to this that we don't really recognize and appreciate in modern society. But like, I mean, think about it. If you're in the bush with somebody with ADHD, and every sound and every, like, you know, smell can trigger them. And they'll be like, what was that? That's probably somebody you want with.Hannah Choi 35:13And that is our show for today, I want to thank Ally, Andrew and Bob for openly sharing their experiences living with ADHD. They were all very happy to do so. And they really hope that their stories will help normalize both neurodivergent learners and show the world that having these conversations about ADHD is really important.Ally 35:34I mean, podcasts like these are so important and just like general work on informing the masses on ADHD, because I think when you believe that, like a neuro normative way of going about life is the only way it really makes you so confused for so many things. And you just feel very separated from the rest of the world when there's genuinely no need for that whatsoever.Hannah Choi 36:02We'll be back with more important conversations about topics that affect us every day, because executive functioning affects every aspect of our lives. I personally feel very, very grateful to be able to be part of enabling these conversations, and sharing useful information so that we can all improve our executive functioning skills and in turn, improve our lives. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying focus forward, please share it with your friends, you can subscribe to our podcast on Apple podcast, Google podcasts, Spotify, and more. And be sure to check out the show notes for this episode because there's a ton and I mean a ton of good info in there. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to our podcast newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcasts will let you know when new episodes drop, and we'll share topics and information related to the episode. Thanks for listening!

We’re back! Didya miss me? I missed you all and it's so great to be back with new episodes of the podcast. As this new season of Focus Forward begins, I’m diving right in to tackle the difficult subject of transitions, its impact on personal growth, and what can be done to better cope. To inform this conversation, I invited Rachel Hulstein-Lowe, a licensed independent clinical social worker in the Boston area. Rachel and I talked about supporting ourselves and our kids through challenging transitions, especially back to school. If you are listening to this episode months after school has started or you are not even a parent or caregiver of children, don’t worry because the ideas that Rachel shared can be used at any time, by anyone, in any transition. We also talked about mindfulness and some easy ways to introduce mindfulness into your life. While the topics are heavy, this conversation is full of good ideas and hope. Here are some relevant resources related to our conversationLearn more about Rachel Hulstein-Lowe.Learn more about Lisa Damour.Mindfulness ResourcesGetting started with mindfulnessSmiling Mind AppThe impact of the pandemic on childrenThe Stolen Year by Anya KamenetzEffects of COVID-19 pandemic on mental health of children and adolescents: A systematic review of survey studiesSnapshot of pandemic’s mental health impact on childrenBack to School SupportBack to School AnxietyStudent Stress: Untangling the Anxiety & Executive Function ConnectionExhausted by the School Year (already)? How to Get Back on TrackCan You Help My Anxious Kid?Hannah Choi 00:04Hi, everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins, you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi, and we're back. Did you miss me? I miss you. And I am so excited to be back in the podcast Oh sphere. Okay. I think I may have just invented that word. But I'm going with it. We took two months off from dropping new episodes, and boy did it fly by. If you ever catch yourself saying two months is a nice long amount of time. Stop yourself right there. Because that is a lie. Two months is basically two seconds, so you better get going right away. If you want to accomplish anything in that amount of time. Well, I guess first, you could listen to episode 11 In our first season, which was all about procrastination, and how to make it a little easier to get going. But once you're done with that, get off your butt and get going. Would you believe me when I say that that's only the first time you'll hear me say "butt" in this episode? Hannah Choi 01:15As this new season of focus forward begins. I'm diving right in to tackle some tough stuff with Rachel Holstein-Lowe, who is a licensed independent clinical social worker in the Boston area. Rachel and I talked about supporting ourselves and our kids through challenging transitions, especially back to school. If you're listening to this episode, months after school has started or you're not even a parent or a caregiver of children, don't change the channel, because the ideas that Rachel shared can be used at any time by anyone in any transition. We also talked about mindfulness and some easy ways to introduce mindfulness into your life. And we also touched upon both how to talk with our kids and support ourselves when incomprehensibly sad and complicated situations are happening in our country and in the world. And while the topics are heavy, this conversation is full of good ideas and hope.Hannah Choi 02:16Alright. Well. Hi, Rachel, thank you so much for joining me today.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 02:20Oh, thank you, Hannah. It's really nice to be here. I'm really glad we were able to come together.Hannah Choi 02:26Me too. It took us a while we had starts and stops there my family with COVID. And there was summer traveling. But yes, it happened. Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 02:35Yes, I'm glad we persevered.Hannah Choi 02:38Well, would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 02:41Sure. So I'm Rachel Holstein-Lowe and I'm a licensed independent clinical social worker. I'm based in the Metro West Boston area, and I have a private practice there. I've been in private practice for 12 years here. But I've been a clinician for nearly 20 years. And I work with a lot of kids and teens and their parents around all kinds of issues, executive functioning being one of many. And certainly that's that that cluster of skills is so impacted by kind of what whatever else is going on, in a young person's life that I think honestly, probably any client, I see kid and adult, like we're talking about those things, whether or not we're using that language,Hannah Choi 03:33right? There's something that you said made me just think about, like the why they're called executive function skills, right. They're just skills that help us execute our day. And so it makes sense that they're tied up with everything. And, and like you said, Me, you might not use that language, but learning how our mental health impacts our executive function skills, and vice versa, is such a valuable skill. And I love that more and more conversations are being had around executive function. And more and more people are learning those words and what that means and how important they are. And it's not just, you know, organization and time management, it's the emotions that are involved with how you feel when you are disorganized, or when you can't manage your time, or how you feel when you figure out how to get organized and how to maintain that organization and how to like if you finally figure out a way to not forget to go to appointments or you finally get to your appointments on time. How what a huge impact that has on your how you feel about yourself. Yeah. That that, that I love how that you said that it comes up in their conversations and yet you recognize as a practitioner, that that is what's that is what's being talked about whether you use those wordsRachel Hulstein-Lowe 04:55I think there's a kind of a growing awareness that these aren't things that we Just have right there skills that we have to develop and work at. And similarly, and I think also going what what societally speaking is that we're, we're increasingly aware that there's not that the mind and the body are actually connected. And not right, the mind isn't just being transported by the body. So I feel like that there's a growing awareness and understanding about about that, that allows for us to have a different kind of conversation and a different way of working.Hannah Choi 05:35Yeah, well, yeah. Similarly, I find, I see a look of almost relief, I would say, on my clients, when I explain, or when we talk about how the brain is causing the challenges that that they that they're having. And so I feel like, I see this relief, like, oh, it's not me, it's my brain. And so like learning that connection between the brain and the body, and and why we do what we do, and don't do what we don't do. All comes from the brain. I don't know, for me, it really helps me understand it. And I do see like, oh, okay, so I'm not just like, bad at something. My brain, there's something going on in my brain that makes it more challenging.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 06:27Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right. And also, what I see with people when they learn about how the brain works, or how and then more specifically how their own brain might be working, right it how it might be processing information, or being triggered, right? How the stress response gets triggered, like, the more they understand that the more agency, yeah, they feel like they have, like, oh, there's actually something I could do in that moment, that might not take the stressor away, but I could feel a little bit better, I can feel a little calmer, I can feel a little more, you know, capable in that moment. And and that that is really exciting to see how quickly somebody can go from a place of just being like, Oh, this is the way it's going to be to oh, oh, I can actually that actually worked. So like we do a breath technique and like, oh, well, I actually do feel different. Like I can actually send a difference in my, in my brain and in my body. And that allows me to make a different choice. And that's just I think that's, that's really exciting. That's, that's an that's an exciting part of the work right? When you see somebody unlock thatHannah Choi 07:41Yeah, yeah. And so that makes me think about the idea of this practice, right? So they call it like a meditation practice or a mindfulness practice. And so that means that we have to do these things over and over again, to get better at them, right. And so it makes me think of all these strategies that we use to support ourselves in areas where we might struggle, you can't just do it once, right, you can do it once and experience the benefit of that one time. But you need to do it again. And again. And it makes me think of how at the beginning of the, like, beginning of any kind of transition, any kind of change, we might feel like super organized, and we've got our like ducks in a row, like at the beginning of the school year, like Yeah, I don't know, with my my kids, right? They've, they've got their checklists, and they're, you know, and they've got their backpacks already, and they know exactly what they're going to do. And so the first week of school, they've kind of got it together, and they remember to do the things they're going to do. And then already this week, I'm seeing we started last week, and already this week, I'm seeing it starting to fall apart. And, and, and on my end to like my, my, the energy that I have to help them maintain the system that we're trying to build is challenging. So do you how do you support your your clients are just what do you recommend for people to once they start to try to set up that practice? Whatever it is practice of fill in the blank? How do you help people keep that going and not experience what I'm already experiencing? Only in week two?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 09:17Yeah. When we're starting, like when we're kind of entering these big transition moments. I think there can be a lot of hope that kids and parents alike have about the new year and you know, we got to clean the slate and there's all this opportunity. And we're going to you're going to learn so much you're going to grow so much you're going to try new things. And that that can all be true. But there's also you know, plenty of kids and parents who are thinking, oh man, not again. Right, and are really expecting it to be hard because it has been or because they're tough. Tired, right? And just like the idea of having to like get up and go like they did, like they don't write, they don't have it. Don't feel like they have it.Hannah Choi 10:12Or there's or there's other situations in their life other circumstances in their life that exactly literally makes it challenging, like if they work at night or if you're stressed in some other in the financial way, or if they don't feel like they have support.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 10:26Right. Yeah. Right. So I mean, I think we can, I'm both cases, we want to be looking at kind of setting some, some realistic expectations.Hannah Choi 10:36So what are some questions in interactions that parents can have to support their kids to get to a place of seeing situations in a more kind of realistic way?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 10:49I think sometimes parents, ah, you know, we're often handicapped because we often ask the question, how was your day? And we hear crickets? Guilty? I think there's a lot of reasons for that, and understandable reasons for that. I think so sometimes I think there's there's also like, how we go about it matters a lot. How much we're asking when we're asking what we're expecting to get back. So the timing, waiting until we're in the car, that we're not right, like those and those kinds of tactics, I think of becoming more and more like people kind of get like, oh, yeah, if we're not making direct eye contact, maybe if we're just sitting next to each other in the car or on the couch, it might be an easier interaction.Hannah Choi 11:35Yeah, I've heard, I've heard lots of suggestions about having difficult conversations in the car. Because you as a driver are slightly distracted, you're not going to be able to be like super, super involved in the conversation. You don't have to look at each other. You can pause and pretend that you're concentrating driving when really you're like, Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 11:55Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. You can clench the wheel if need be? Yeah. The other I think it's, I think it could actually be really useful. In terms of timing, but then I think, also, as parents, you know, I have a unique position with the young people I see. And you know, you do too, and that I'm going to interact with them for at best 45 to 60 minutes a week. Yeah, yeah. And then they're going to, and then they're gonna go, they're gonna plop into my office, or I'm going to meet them virtually. And I'm, I'm gonna get some stuff, and we're gonna have a nice conversation, but they don't really they don't owe me anything beyond that. Nor do I owe them. And that's a, that's a really unique experience, I really try hard to let parents know like they, because of that they are going to share something with me that I think is fundamentally different. But the ways that parents can maybe maximize conversation is to really start to use the therapeutic models in terms of like, really starting from a place of, I want to show you that I get and understand your emotional world. Or at least, maybe I don't know all the details. And I can't pretend that I've lived that experience myself. But I know what it's like to be anxious. I know what it's like to be mad. I know what it's like to be jilted. I know what it's like to worry about a test, like I know those things. So when our kid is showing that emotion, we're joining with that. And we're starting from that place. So rath- So right, so we're really starting with a place of letting our kid know, I get that feeling state.Hannah Choi 13:43This, this reminds me of a conversation that I had earlier in last season of the podcast with Sherry Fleydervish, who is a therapist in the Chicago area, and she was talking about the idea of co-regulation, and how, how just even just share like, as much as you can, as a parent sharing in the emotion with your child can show them like you said, validate their feelings and can help them work through it or just, it shows them it's okay to feel this way. And to just it's okay to just sit in that feeling. And yeah, just being physically near them can help or Yeah, and then one thing that she said that, that really resonated with me is like, I I noticed, like, I don't I don't want to get it wrong when I'm interacting with my kids or my clients. Like I don't want to Well, up until I talked with her, I didn't want to get it wrong. I didn't want to. I wanted to be able to guess their emotion and get it right. And, and then so so I would hesitate to try to to try to help them figure out what they're feeling because, yeah, I didn't want to be wrong. And she said it's okay to be wrong. Yeah, because it can one it can help them. It just shows them that you're trying to connect with them. And to it can actually help them figure out what they are really feeling. Yeah. And because they can, if you guess wrong, then they can say, Oh, well, no, it's not actually that it's and then it gets them to think about Yes. Yeah. So as parents, we might be hesitant to engage with our children about emotion. In case we get it wrong, or in case, they don't want to talk about it, but maybe just showing them that we are open to talking about it, and that we have feelings, too. Must be very validating for kidsRachel Hulstein-Lowe 15:34Absolutely. I think it I think all of us are looking for that sense of being seen and heard. And when we really experienced that, that there's it can't be beat. Right? Regardless, regardless of age, but we are we're so hungry to be seen and heard. And understood. Yeah, we really want it all we really want to be known. We want to be known. Yeah.Hannah Choi 15:57You just see people's reactions. Like sometimes you see a silly meme. And, and, and then and oftentimes people's response is "I feel seen". One was like, you know, I use my microwave as my as my coffee storage. And I was just like, Yeah, me too. That's where I keep my tea.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 16:16Love it. Yes. Yes, exactly.Hannah Choi 16:20Yeah. So no matter what it is, it does feel good to be seen, and how, what a great opportunity to enrich your relationship with your child.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 16:30And I think what often happens if we don't feel validated and known and understood, if our kid doesn't? Then they're gonna keep throwing things out? To try to get you to get it. Yeah. And what that typically looks like, is dysregulation and protest and resistance, right? That's how we experience it. But I think what they're actually trying to communicate is, can you could you please see me see me? See me? Yeah. And once we see them, we what we tend to see more often than not, is that really drops down. And then we can then we can have a conversation about well, what, what happened? And what do you want to do next? Yeah. And is there a way? Is there a way for me as your parent to do to be a part of that? Or is it more that you just needed me to know this is going on?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 17:25And that's a great question to ask.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 17:26And it sucks, right? I can't do anything. And I'm here for you. I think the our older, right, as our kids get older, our role more and more, really, is to take more of a backseat and allow them to try things and probably not always do it correctly. But to say I got your back here, no matter what. And, you know, you can go out and try those things and come back and tell me about them. And try again, you know, that's, that's, that's what we that's what we hope for. That is not an easy task as a parent. No, that's really, it can be excruciating.Hannah Choi 18:08And also, I feel like, you know, as when our kids are little we can, the things that we do for them are very tangible, right? Like we get we fill their cereal bowl with milk. Yeah, you're hungry. I'll pour the milk for you. You've grown out of your clothes. Here's some new clothes that fit. Yeah. But then as they get older, that connecting with someone emotionally is not like a thing you can hold. It's not, you know, it's not milk you can pour. And so it's a I imagine, I know for myself, but I imagine for the people that transition from helping in a real tangible way to helping in just like a sort of invisible support ways is different. It's hard. Yeah, it's hard to back off like that.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 18:54It is. It is it is I think, particularly as parents, I will say, I've had one client in particular, I think of who I've worked with for a long time. And through a lot of a lot of life. This this this 19 year old has seen a lot. But something she shared with me recently was very early on in her work. It was just excruciatingly painful for her to articulate really what was going on internally. I could see it we could, we could see it, but we didn't know. There weren't words. And she said one of the one of the things that allowed her to keep coming back was that I just sat I literally sat with her. We didn't I didn't force conversations. Sometimes we passed a notebook back and forth to each other. And sometimes those were drawings, those weren't always words. But that went on for a while. But I went you know what it? The message she got was it was okay. I can hold it. And I think that's that that's really that's really the intention here is to say, I can handle it. As a parent, I can handle it. I don't like it. It's really yucky. But I can handle and I think that speaks to what you were talking about with this other therapist talking about that co-regulation piece. Yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 20:19And what a nice if you can get if you as a parent can get to a place where you can do that and feel comfortable doing that such a gift for you, your child and your relationship. Yeah. And future relationshipRachel Hulstein-Lowe 20:31Because I think what we forget, sometimes, either as parents or as providers, frankly, is that sometimes the people we're working with or our kids already have the answers, and then they just are so overwhelmed that they can't access them in that moment. But if we provide them space, right to sit with it, yeah. And feel it. And it's okay. And it passes as emotions do, right? They're not temp, they're not permanent. They're temporary, the cloud moves, right, the sun comes out again. And then oh, right, a solution appears. Right? Or maybe no solution, but at least something to try. I think another really cool thing to try is to is doing some imagery or doing some just some imagining around the this event being a success. Right, and like kind of step by step. So really, it can be a little bit painstaking. But really breaking it down until like, I'm going to, I'm going to get dressed, I'm going to walk out the door, I'm going to take these steps into the into the school like really like, at all those moments where there might be a seizing up that that we're imagining, well, what can I do in that moment? What's that going to feel like in my body? And what? Who am I going to need what connection? You know, what can I remember? What can I have with me? What can I hold in my hand, like all kinds of ways of imagining each step of that transition, or that moment being a success?Hannah Choi 22:13Hearing that is very validating for me because I struggle with some anxiety and and when I'm lying in bed the night before a day where I know that I'm going to be doing some things that that I'm anxious about. I will envision my day I make myself like I imagined myself getting up getting ready. You know, doing like I walk myself doing through all of your things. Awesome. Yeah. And yeah, I usually don't even make it to the end of the day, because I fall asleep before I get there. But it has been the, it has been one of the most helpful things that I've done for myself dealing with an upcoming stressor.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 22:56Uh huh. Yeah. So one other thing to be thinking about when we're thinking about these big transition moments, right. So there's, there's all kinds of things to be keeping in mind. But I do want to say kind of the importance of routines. So we know, kids sleep is really crucial. And I'm you know, I don't want to be judge and jury on that. I just want to say like, having a regular bedtime and wake up time, regardless of age is really important in terms of good sleep hygiene, and in terms of maximizing brain capacity, and, and overall health benefits, like the data is undeniable. It's just undeniable. So the more we can support, that kind of routine is, is going to, we're going to see a better regulated and a more ready kid for the day. Yeah, so whatever we can do to support that. Um, and nutrition. I don't you know, I'm not a dietitian. So I'm not getting I'm not going to get into the details of that. But what I will say that falls under that umbrella is there's also very strong data about family dinner. And in our world, and in a lot of family systems, people have a lot of competing schedules and the idea of having family dinner. Are you nuts? I am not in any way saying it needs to happen every night, if it is like gold star. However, having some sacredness having some having some having some way of saying this night is family dinner night and we honor that and we respect That and that doesn't mean that I have to spend an hour making said family dinner, but that we sat down, and maybe we sat down at, we didn't sit down, maybe we ate at the counter because somebody has to go in 20 minutes. But we came together as a family. And we had that slice of pizza together. And I made eye contact with you. And I had an opportunity to say, this happened to me today. Or, huh, hey, I remember now you or something was gonna You were telling me about so and so what ended up happening was so and so. Having a chance to do that. A it reinforces it the family as a team. And we can we need each other. We need each other so so much. It, it reinforces the idea that I got your back. I got your back. I'm here, even though I'm places I am here. So now. Yeah, that routine. If it's not there. I think that could go a long way towards building your kids emotional health.Hannah Choi 26:13Yeah, and I that was something that I heard a lot about, like during the height of the pandemic, when there was a lot of, you know, when we were all stuck at home, that that we ate dinner together. And it was so nice. I heard that from so many people. Yeah. Yeah. And is there anything else you'd like to add about managing transitions and dealing with all the feelings around those?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 26:36I think we've said it, but it bears repeating that I think it's important to normalize that these transitions are stressful. So the more we can actively say, yep, starting school is right. Like there's parts of it that are really hard. Starting something new is usually hard change is usually hard. We as humans don't usually like to go from one thing to a new thing, like there's an adjustment, there's an adjustment to that the more we can normalize it, there's going to be stress for that there's going to be stress for everybody in the family, not just the kid going to, to school,Hannah Choi 27:19you know, the past two years, two and a half years has added a level of stress that maybe now it's not as overt. Right. It's not as in our face now. But the that low level vibration of stress that we are still all feeling whether we are aware of it or not, I imagine makes everything just like a little bit or a lot harder. Yeah. Depending on the person.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 27:48Oh, I think there's so much yet to come out about all of this. Right. I think there was a book released maybe in the last month, right about the negative impacts educationally academically, which is kind of scathing, it's it's, it's, it's a little brutal. And that I'm sure that's the first of many, what what I'm seeing kids across the board, struggle with it that was always there. But I I you know, in terms of the Android, like you're talking about that little little vibration, so for some it's a low level of vibration, and others it's like it was before the pandemic. And now it's a full fledged problem. Our social skills, yes. Right. And that that covers a whole lot of ground. So I can get more specific about that. Very low lowered distress tolerance. I'm going to define that. As you know, Life is stressful. We wake up in the morning, like, if we're going to get out of bed, we're going to experience some stress. Plain and simple. I don't know if you're familiar with the work of Dr. Lisa Damour.Hannah Choi 28:59Oh, yes. I actually have one of her books. I haven't read it yet. But uh, yeah, she's,Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 29:03I just think she's great. I've had the good fortune of being in an audience, hearing her talk a couple of times, actually. And she's the one who said, you know, like, if you're going to get out of bed in the morning, you're going to experience stress, like that's just a given. But then the body in the mind's capacity then to like, manage that and kind of get on with it and deal with the day is a measure of your tolerance of that stress. And what I'm seeing, I think profoundly, actually, is it doesn't take much, yeah, to feel pretty overwhelmed. Pretty ready to say, yeah, no, I'm not doing that. That's not happening today. I don't want to talk to this person, you know, in a way that it wasn't. It's different. Yeah,Hannah Choi 29:59I mean, If my sister and I were just talking recently about how, before the pandemic, like me, I'm an extrovert and I love socializing. I love planning parties, and I love planning a chance to go out with friends or to, you know, connect with other people. And I find it difficult now, which is crazy, because it was something that I craved doing before. And I have to force myself to do now. Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's getting better getting much. Yeah. I had a party this weekend!Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 30:28Yeah, that does kind of make you go, wow. Like, yeah, yeah. And you don't know what's happening to you. But then, yeah, yeah. The third thing that it saddens me to say it, but I I, and I don't know, honestly, how much of this is truly actually anxiety, but it gets it manifests as cynicism. But that kind of like writing things off? Um, is there's an awareness of the world that I think is like inevitable. Like, I think it just like I don't think there was any way to avoid that and for for our kids and our teens. But I think what what I'm seeing coming with that is a cynicism. That is that is new. And I find that really sad.Hannah Choi 31:15Yeah. And how does that manifest like, how do you? What do you see that?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 31:20I guess maybe a better word, maybe a more clinical word to use was, would be more more hopelessness, more more sense of doom, more sense of like, what's the point? More apathy? Yeah, and that it's heartbreaking. Yeah. That is heartbreaking. Yeah. Yeah.Hannah Choi 31:40Yeah. And I suppose the repeated exposure to things not working out? Yes. You know, make sense that Yeah. Start to believe that that's true.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 31:49Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, we've we've lived through a very challenging health crisis, but we have many, many other you know, you know, the, the meme of the the dumpster on fire. Yeah. You know, that we connect with that. And our kids do, too. And I, how then how does how does a kid brain process that? What did you know? When Where did where did they go from there?Hannah Choi 32:19I have struggled, well not struggled. But for much of my adult life, I would like to become someone who meditates. It's something that I I like I've read a lot about the science, and I understand why it's good for us. And I have experienced the benefits of it the few times that I have gotten myself to meditate, but I cannot. Yet I have not yet yet. I'm trying to use theRachel Hulstein-Lowe 32:39growth mindset, language, open mindset, because I have notHannah Choi 32:43yet built it into a built a practice of it into my life, which I'm sure would help me deal with the fallout of the pandemic. You know, how do you how do you from your perspective, how do you support someone who, you know, is open to trying something does try it and then wants to, you know, feels the benefit of it, and then wants to keep that as a practice that they that they do in their life?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 33:09Well, if we're talking specifically about, like, a mindfulness or meditation practice, something I really encourage my clients to think about and honestly, myself, right, is that mindfulness doesn't have to be sitting in full lotus on a mat. Being quiet. It can be, it can be, but not everybody's going to gonna do that. And that and that's fine. That's, that's, I don't, I don't think that was anybody's intention, right of kind of, like expanding this idea of, of, of mindfulness and meditation practice. So there's a lot of ways to come at it, that might be more palatable, depending on who you are. Um, so one of the ways I really like to introduce it to people who are like, yeah, that's not me. Because I hear that a lot. And that makes sense. It isn't, yeah, that that particular way that isn't that isn't everybody, um, is the idea of taking something that you do habitually, every day, maybe even multiple times a day and do it slightly differently. So an example of that could be brushing your hair, brushing your teeth, getting out of the shower. Okay, these habitual acts, and I say habitual in very intentionally because it has to be something that you are doing really on autopilot. HannahChoi 34:45Yeah, where you don't think you don't think about it.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 34:48 You just do it, and then it's done. And if anybody asks you, how did you do that? You'd be like, I don't know.Hannah Choi 34:55I don't know. I just did it.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 34:58I just do it. So, how do you change it up? So, here's a silly one. You know, like, if you put makeup on, let's say you put on mascara, you start on the on the opposite. Or you hold the one with the other hand. Yeah. Oh God, oh, or you brush your teeth, you brush your teeth, you probably start on the same side. Every time. Don't be stopped and thought about it, you would have to go to a different place.Hannah Choi 35:31Okay, okay, or like dry your body off in a different order? Yeah. Ah, okay.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 35:37Exactly. Exactly. So it's really simple. It's just so so so simple, basic stuff.Hannah Choi 35:49And there's that and it works because it makes you bring your attention back to the thing that you're doing. Like, you start to wander off. And then you're like, wait, as I'm drying my arm, I'm drying at this point, when normally I'd be at my leg or whatever.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 36:01Yeah, yeah. Okay. And thanks for saying that. Because mindfulness again is not about like, OmmmmmHannah Choi 36:07yeah, right. Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 36:09Oh, that's the image we had. Right, right - mindfulness. Really, I think the way I think about a mindfulness practice is that I'm present moment focused. And my, I'm bringing as many of my senses into that present moment as possible. So I'm right here right now. I'm not rehashing the conversation I had before logging in with you. Any more than I'm anticipating the session? I have at one o'clock. Yeah, I'm right here. Yeah, so in my body. I'm in this I'm in this moment. Um, and so again, like did that doesn't have to be this. So yeah. So if I have to think about that, where that towel is, then I'm thinking about my hand. I'm feeling the towel. Right? I am. I'm very aware of what I'm doing right now. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't have to last a long period of time. And every time like you, you're you're very naturally you're our we have monkey brains like we do. They jump around. That's what they do. That doesn't mean we're doing it wrong. It means every time we catch that we have a monkey brain. Every time we realize, Oh, I'm not thinking about toweling myself off anymore. Right. We were mindful. Like success done. Yeah. Right. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. You just practice mindfulness. Which I, you know, I, I hope that that approach, that that approach for me when I was taught that way, to me, it was like it totally demystified it and made it like, oh, I can do that.Hannah Choi 37:59Right. Right. Yeah. I feel like I'm feeling really, it's funny. This conversation does actually, like, make me feel a little bit a little bit better about my about myself, because I do see it as like a sitting and, and breathing and bringing myself back to my feeling the pressure of my, you know, butt on the floor, whatever. Like they always say, but, but it doesn't have to be that way.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 38:26No, yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, no one is going to argue the value of having a dedicated meditative practice. Yeah, there is. I mean, there is data, it is phenomenal. Actually, it's phenomenal. So I would in no way discourage you from working towards that.Hannah Choi 38:48Yes. Right. And that's my point. I guess that's my point is that I am I am going to use the our idea of of switching things up and seeing that and valuing that as mindfulness to see the benefit to help me get to sit and feel my butt on the floor.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 39:07Yeah. Yeah. I want to add one other really critical piece. Yeah. And that is non judgment.Hannah Choi 39:16Yes. Yes.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 39:19So I think that one gets missed. Because we, we don't do a meditation perfection. We do a meditation practice, right? These philosophies. These ideas are based, right, like a basic tenant of them is that we're present moment focused non judgmentally. So however, I'm showing up whatever's going on however many times I have to catch myself right. Right in in in a 60 minute is 60 seconds. My mind wanders 60 times. Right? Who cares? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So that's not something that we come to immediately. Right that, that I think, honestly, I think that piece of it is harder. Yeah. Then the redirecting the brain, yeah.Hannah Choi 40:19Right. Right. Especially because we get, you know, throughout our lives, we get so many messages that say, we are being judged. You know, we are told that with grades and at work, and, yeah, it's, so separating yourself from that kind of thinking is challenging is really hard, you what you what you just said about how it's not just the pandemic that we've been dealing with, but a whole lot of other really deeply emotional and traumatic events that have happened, you know, for people at and, you know, related directly to the pandemic, like death and illness and long COVID. And then the really sad stuff that's going on, you know, with racism, and, and school shootings, and just, you know, the stress of the government and climate, you know, that that kind of stuff really impacts us as adults, because we are much more cognizant of what's going on, we really, you know, we're aware of it, we are exposed much more directly to it than our children are. But our children can also be exposed to it in ways that we can't regulate, like, we don't know exactly what they're being exposed to and how they're how they're getting the information, like, we know how we're getting it, but we don't know how they're getting it. Yes. So what are some things that we as parents and also as caregivers, because I'm sure there are people listening that are not parents, but they are there they interact with children? And in some way, how do we approach that those interactions in a developmentally appropriate way, in a way that we are comfortable with, and a way that, you know, both supports them meets their needs and protects them at the same time? Sounds pretty daunting to me, I know, as a parent with my own kids, I, it's yeah, it's hard.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 42:13It is daunting. And what that reminds me of not to go too far off on a tangent, but I do think it's really relevant is, is, you know, we were just talking about this common denominator of living through of living through this pandemic, and how that's been this equalizer in terms of like, it's all something that we can talk about, we've all struggled with it, we've all had our own lives impacted, literally every person, right? So and there's a real opportunity to kind of come together through that in terms of that shared experience. So what that has meant for me as a provider, and where I think this is so relevant than when we're talking about, you know, as a parent, or as an adult, interacting with a kid about these other world events, is having a decent way of like checking in with myself, like, where am I at, with this, and am I regulated. And to be able to have this conversation to be able to kind of step in to this space with this, this person. And at times, having to, you know, being being able to say, while this is really hard for me to talk about, or I haven't quite wrapped my head around where I'm at, with this, I, I'm really sad about this, this really makes me angry, like being able to name what we have as adults, hopefully, as we've got a little more skill in being able to recognize what our own emotional state is, and a little more capacity to be able to verbalize that in an appropriate way. So that's not only like, just like good human behavior, but it's also really good modeling for kids. So I think like, that's got to be our starting place is like, Am I like, Am I okay, enough? If I checked my own ideas about this, have I had an opportunity to process this? And digest it enough that I can, you know, have a conversation about it? Yeah. And if I if I'm not, then do I have time to do that work? Or can I say, Wow, I don't you know, I want to talk about this? This is important and it's really bothering me to like maybe that's like maybe that's enough. I have been really pleasantly surprised but surprised about how much of this content has been coming up for my my kid in particular in high in high school that the vast majority of their knowing is coming from is coming from class. So it's been really like a very personal it's been really used We'll just say, Okay, well tell me about that class discussion, because then I at least I have a, I know where their starting place is. Right. But I think it can be useful to just say that, you know, there might be a lot of other ways of looking at it. Hannah Choi 45:15Mm hmm. Yeah. Teaching some of that perspective-taking andRachel Hulstein-Lowe 45:19yeah, that's some of that perspective taking, um, and sometimes our kids may have already taken a side on it. And it's, you know, it's worth kind of understanding where where they're at, they might just be really, really activated, they might be really scared. And again, like, that goes back to kind of where we started this whole conversation of like, well, let's, let's focus in on that. What's that emotional piece like, and under showing that understanding and Pat and compassion for, you know, whatever the fear is, it's coming up, or the anger that's coming up, the outrage is coming up.Hannah Choi 45:55And that we we have feelings about it too. And we can have different feelings about it, or we can share feelings about Yeah, I think it's such a great opportunity, something that you said, it's made me think that it's conversations around challenging topics, like this is such a great opportunity to teach kids the value of not having black and white thinking, and not even just the value of not doing black and white thinking but how, like how to not think that way. And you reminds me of the conversation that I had with Jackie Wolfman, who is a dialectical behavior therapist. And the whole idea of being able to hold opposite feelings about one thing at the same time. And, and also that extends to relationship with your family, like you might feel differently about something than your child or than your parent, but you can still connect and love each other and right, have a relationship.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 46:59So another kind of another example of that, in my own in my own household, is my daughter getting a lot of information about about political things, and having very strong opinions, and having classmates with very opposing opinions. And that was an opportunity to to have kind of that dialectical. Right conversation about, you can agree and still be respectful. Yeah, you can agree and actually still like this, you can disagree and actually still like this person?Hannah Choi 47:33Yeah. Well, I lived it, because I'm a Red Sox fan. And I married a Yankees fan. So yeah.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 47:42Well, you're living it every day. Hannah Choi 47:44I am, I am. Before we go, can you share with our listeners where they can find you?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 47:54Yeah, so I'm physically located in Needham, Massachusetts. So for anyone who's in the in local to me in the metro west Boston area, they can find me at the phone number 617-470-9035. But I also have a lot of digital content and plan on offering more in terms of guaranteeing webinars, anxiety classes and strategies for kiddos. And you can find all that on my website and register for upcoming stuff at www.parentcoach.info. In fact, I've got a in person class for kids called fear busters for kids this Thursday, October 6, and I have a parenting webinar the following day, Friday, October 7. And people literally can log in from anywhere for that. Yeah. So thanks again, Hannah.Hannah Choi 48:54Thank you so much, Rachel. Wonderful conversation. I feel like I could talk to you all day. It's really, really interesting.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 49:03Wow, it's been really nice.Hannah Choi 49:07And that's our show. For today. We'll be back with more interesting conversations, tips and tricks for improving your executive function skills, and stories of success from people who are working on their own executive function skills. Thank you for being here for our second season and taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics we cover in each episode of Focus forward, please share it with your friends, and be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop, and we'll share topics and information related to the topic. You can now find us on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts and Spotify so be sure to add us. Thanks for listening

People often think of procrastination as a time management problem, but studies show that it's actually about something much different - avoiding uncomfortable emotions. In 2013, procrastination researchers found that people procrastinate to regulate their emotions in the short term and let their “future selves” deal with the consequences, somehow believing that their future selves will be able to handle it better. Despite the fact that putting things off may protect us from discomfort temporarily, it’s rarely the best idea to pass unfinished things on to the future versions of ourselves. The potential consequences are endless and it can become a habit that holds us back form reaching our potential. That's why in this week's episode, I'm going to share a few pieces of critical information about procrastination and explore some coach-approved strategies that will hopefully help you combat this common issue. Throughout the episode, I also talk to a number of people in my life about their procrastination habits to help provide first person context to our exploration. I'm sure you'll be able to relate to many of their experiences with procrastination! This is also the last episode in our first season of Focus Forward. We will return on October 5th and bring you more relevant topics, fascinating guests, and useful support for you as you work to develop your Executive Function skills. If I’ve learned anything over the course of the last 11 episodes of this podcast, it is to embrace my fear of failure. One of my favorite quotes ever is from psychologist Susan David. She says, “discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life”. Hopefully, you can find power in this quote to do the things you want to do - regardless of how scary it might be. Thanks for supporting the show and please feel free to email me at [email protected] if you have any suggestions for future episodes! Here are some relevant resources related to this episode:Why We ProcrastinateSirois, F. and Pychyl, T. (2013) Procrastination and the Priority of Short-Term Mood Regulation: Consequences for Future SelfWhy People with ADHD Procrastinate - YouTube Video with Tracey MarksInside the mind of a master procrastinator - a TED Talk with Tim UrbanThis is the real reason you procrastinate — and how to break the habit - Read about and find the link to Adam Grant's WorkLife podcast episode on procrastination.Tips and TricksPeg Dawson’s Task Initiation Obstacles WorksheetsFor StudentsFor AdultsSteps, Time, Mapping (STM) Project Planning Worksheet A template to use for inspiration when creating your own STM.Do You Shine Under Pressure? How to Manufacture a Sense of Urgency Tips from ADDitude on how to create fake urgency.The Power of Imperfect Starts James Clear's article on getting started and figuring out what is necessary vs. what is optimal.BooksIt’s About Time: The Six Styles of Procrastination and How to Overcome Them by Dr. Linda SapadinAtomic Habits by James ClearEat that Frog! 21 Great Ways to Stop Procrastinating and Get More Done in Less Time by Brian TracyList of Books by Russell BarkleyMusic credits: Aso - Sunsetsleavv - VoyageAmbient Guitar - WestlakePurpose - Jonny EastonGateKeeper - The Piano SaysInto the Light - Chill Acoustic GuitarAcoustic Folk Instrumental - HydeTranscriptHannah Choi 00:00Do you procrastinate? Procrastination Consultant 1 00:01Sometimes. Hannah Choi 00:02Do you know why you procrastinate? Procrastination Consultant 1 00:04I think I procrastinate because I just don't want to do it. And I know it's, I think it's gonna be hard. Hannah Choi 00:09And what do you do to get yourself going? Procrastination Consultant 1 00:12I pair it with something that I like doing. Like, I don't like eating spinach. So I always eat or the rice so I can't taste it. Hannah Choi 00:22Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. And as you just heard, I am tackling the idea of procrastination in today's episode. That cutie patootie I was just talking with is my 10 year old son, and he is one of the procrastination consultants I interviewed for this episode. Throughout it, you'll hear clips of people in my life who procrastinate and if you stick around until the end, you'll hear from the one person of everyone I asked who does not procrastinate ever? I know! I was surprised to. Hannah Choi 01:06I was talking with my sister Julia about writing this episode. And we both agreed that there are definitely opportunities within an episode on procrastination. I make a lot of jokes about putting stuff off. You know, I could joke about procrastinating about writing this episode. Well, turns out it's no joke, I have actually found getting going on writing this episode harder than most anything else I've written. And when I thought about why this was because you know me, I love a little bit of reflection, I realized it's because I really, really want to get it right. And I have to admit that I'm afraid I won't. I mean, you're all gonna be listening to me chatter on about procrastination. And there are just so many aspects to it. And I definitely can't cover them all in one episode. And there are so many other amazing resources out there already created by all these amazing people. So how can I make sure that I'm creating and contributing something new? It's a lot. Oh, by the way, I've included some of these amazing resources in the show notes. So maybe you can procrastinate from doing your work by checking them out after you're done listening to me. Anyway, my point is that I continually put off working on the episode because of a fear of not getting it right, not getting it perfect. And fear doesn't feel good. So it makes sense that I would avoid a situation that might cause that right. People often think of procrastination as a time management problem. But studies show that it actually often comes down to doing what I did, avoiding uncomfortable emotions. In 2013. And academic study done by some procrastination, researchers found that people procrastinate to regulate their emotions in the short term, and then let their future selves deal with the consequences. Somehow believing that these future selves will be able to handle it better. I can for sure relate to this and definitely have said, "That's a problem for Future Hannah". While it's a funny thing to say, and humor eases the decision to procrastinate a little, it's not always the best idea to pass unfinished things on to the future versions of ourselves. And today, I'm going to share some ideas about procrastination and some strategies that you will hopefully find useful. Hannah Choi 03:28But first, let's take a quick look at the brain science behind why we avoid things. Procrastination is essentially a result of challenges with task initiation, which is the executive function skill that helps us start doing the things we need to do to get through our day. There are other EF skills that come into play here as well, such as self regulation, the ability to manage our emotions, and metacognition, which helps us understand why we do what we do or don't do in this case. As you may know, these EF skills are managed by the prefrontal cortex, which is located in the front part of our brains, tap on your forehead. It's right in there. Alright, so that's great. If we've got these prefrontal cortexes that are supposed to be helping us, why is it still so hard to get started? And this is where the helpful but sometimes ill-timed limbic system comes into the picture and starts causing havoc. One of the main things the limbic system is responsible for is helping us react quickly to situations that are dangerous or cause discomfort. And this is a good thing when you have just grabbed a hot cast iron frying pan handle. (I did this the other day!) but not so helpful when you're just trying to get your math homework started. The limbic system says, "Alert alert! Get out of here because this does not feel good". So let's check in with my procrastination consultants on this topic and see what they have to say about it.Procrastination Consultant 2 04:58Um, I procrastinate because As I mean, after I've had a long day at school, I have lots of homework and outside responsibilities from other things I'm a part of, and I just kind of want a break. And so I want to move my brain on to other things and not think about all that stuff because it makes me anxious, stressed out.Procrastination Consultant 3 05:15Often if what I need to do involves calling somebody on the telephone, or talking to somebody, I'm not always comfortable in those situations. So I'll often put off doing that.Procrastination Consultant 4 05:30I think I tend to procrastinate when I'm hungry or tired. Because when I do activities, when I'm hungry or tired, I'm often very hard on myself. So then I don't I don't enjoy the activity. Hannah Choi 05:44Okay, you can hear them say that they avoid things that cause discomfort. This is their limbic system talking. When they finally do get going. It's because their prefrontal cortex is finally stepping in and taking over the situation. The limbic system has been around since birth, and our prefrontal cortex develops last. So it kind of makes sense that our limbic systems get first dibs on our reaction to stuff we need to do. The brain chemical or neurotransmitter dopamine also plays a big part in motivation, and it can explain why we don't want to do things that are boring. It also explains why people with ADHD often have major struggles with task initiation. When we do something pleasurable, dopamine is released and makes us want to do the thing again. So if we put hard work and effort into something, and I'm not saying that this hard work and effort is always pleasurable, but what is pleasurable is that we received praise or good grades or some other reward, and then dopamine is produced. This dopamine makes us want to put the effort in again, because the reward feels good. For people with ADHD, less dopamine makes it to the regions of the brain involved with motivation, so they do not feel that motivating pleasurable feeling as much as people without ADHD. Something else interesting that I learned from reading Russell Barkley, a renowned ADHD expert, who's written a ton of books on the topic is that people with ADHD have a difficult time seeing time other than right now. So why not put off the sucky stuff and do something that gives you a nice boost of dopamine instead? If this is resonating with you, regardless of your ADHD status, you are not alone. My procrastination consultants shared that boredom was often a reason for putting off tasks. Hannah Choi 07:36Do you procrastinate?Procrastination Consultant 5 07:37100%? Absolutely. All the time!Hannah Choi 07:40Do you know why? Procrastination Consultant 5 07:43So for me, if it's not fun and creative, it's pretty much gets put on the backburner every single time. I just get bored of it. And I don't want to do it. So I won't do it.Hannah Choi 07:53Do you know why you procrastinate? Procrastination Consultant 6 07:55Because I don't want to do it because it's boring.Procrastination Consultant 7 07:59And generally speaking, the task itself is usually not anything incredibly difficult. But for whatever reason, it's perceived by myself as something that's dreaded. Either it's boring, or I'm not willing to devote the time to sit down and actually started.Procrastination Consultant 8 08:26Like, I always put bills at the top of my list. But do bills always get done. No, they never get done. Hannah Choi 08:33Why not? Procrastination Consultant 8 08:33 I because I procrastinate because I hate it.Hannah Choi 08:36Okay, thanks for sticking with a while, explored the brain a bit. So what can we do about this? How can we battle our brains? How can we overcome that boredom? These brands of ours learn these reactions over years and years from childhood really. So it makes sense that we would react the same over time and find it difficult to change? Is there any way we can ease those uncomfortable emotions and then hack these tasks, so they're not quite so awful, and stop leaving so much undone for those future versions of ourselves. Hannah Choi 09:08So the other day, I counted, and there are about 5 million approaches to help with task initiation. And while I would love to share all of those 5 million ideas with you, I wouldn't have any time left to spend watching my Korean dramas instead of doing the things on my own to do list. And it would also leave you no time to do the things that you like to do instead of what you're supposed to be doing. So I've narrowed my list down from 5 million to five. I'd love to hear from you. So if you've got a strategy or approach that works well for you that I don't mention in this episode, shoot me an email and I'll try to share them in a future episode, which I'm sure I'll procrastinate about, and you'll have to wait until 2024 to listen to it. Hannah Choi 09:52Okay. Anyway, so onto my five strategies to make task initiation a little easier and a little less painful. I'll also explain some of the EF skills that you might use for each strategy. First up, make a plan. Practicing the EF skill of planning and prioritizing is always helpful. And for some, it can really make a difference when it comes to getting started. Something we coaches hear often is that the reason our clients don't start something is because it feels so big, sometimes overwhelmingly huge, and they just don't know where to start. I bet you've probably felt that way about something before I know I should have. I really felt this writing this episode. Anyway, the simple act of breaking tasks down into steps is often the nudge that's needed just to get going. And it can also help you find a good place to start. But how do you do this in an organized and effective way. One of my favorite tools that I share with every client I've ever worked with, is called STM or steps time mapping. And I'd be willing to wager that this tool is a favorite in every EF coaches toolbox. You can find a link to a visual for this tool in the show notes. But for now, I'll just describe it to you. To create an STM you write down all the steps involved in your project. And you can get as granular as you'd like here. And then make some guesses about how much time you'll need for each. And then map it out when and maybe even where you'll do the things. Be sure to build in breaks, and maybe even some buffer time at the end, just in case something comes up and you're not able to work on the thing when you thought you'd be able to because I promise you that will happen. It can help to work backwards from the due date to figure out how much buffer time you can actually give yourself and try to be honest with yourself and realistic about how much you're likely to get done in a day. I always ask myself and my clients is this a reasonable amount of work you're asking yourself to do at this time. Hannah Choi 11:54And this idea leads right into my second tip for making it easier to get going. Using the EF skill of metacognition and checking in with yourself to either see how you're feeling or to figure out what barriers are keeping you from getting started can be really helpful. Take some time to figure out what time of day you're most likely to be successful in completing these tasks. In addition to the question about whether it's a reasonable amount of work, I also like to ask when are you most likely to be successful doing this thing. And it may be that you do your best work at unconventional hours so be open to considering working when most others aren't. You might be like my dear friend Bonnie, who finds two in the morning a prime time for getting work done. A tool that can be used to check in with ourselves before starting to work on something we don't want to work on is the halt strategy. And halt was originally developed to help addicts predict when they might relapse at beyond booksmart. We teach this tool to our clients to help them assess how they're doing before starting something. Okay, so H stands for hungry. A is for angry or anxious. L stands for lonely and T for tired. If you're feeling any of these things, taking care of them before getting started might help. And speaking of a for anxious, feeling anxious about doing nothing can really get in the way of getting started. If you're experiencing a lot of anxiety, it might be helpful to get some support from a therapist. If you're not sure where to start, reach out to your doctor and they can provide some guidance. It can also be helpful to do some reflection and ask why you're procrastinating at this particular moment. What is stopping you? Peg Dawson, the author of Smart but Scattered and a guest on a previous episode of this podcast has an excellent activity that might help you figure out why you're procrastinating and come up with a plan to get past that stuck feeling. Her tool is linked in the show notes. So please check it out. Hannah Choi 13:58Okay, so next up is to be sure to create a good environment, it's worthwhile to take some time to consider steps that you can take to set yourself up for success. The EF skills of self regulation, flexible thinking and organization come into play here. So you could pair the thing that you don't want to do with something that you do like to do. You could fold that dreaded laundry while watching a show. You might want to consider choosing a show you've seen before or when that you won't get sucked into. You could listen to music or an audio book while you mow the lawn or try out a new podcast on your morning run.Hannah Choi 14:35You can work with a buddy this strategy is called body doubling. Make sure it's someone who won't distract you from your work or give you a hard time if you're struggling to stay focused. A college client of mine has identified two friends of hers with whom she can study and they're motivated to study which helps her get into it. You can make sure you have a special snack that comforts you or one that you can just use as a reward. Maybe every time you finish A paragraph or even just a sentence on that paper you've been struggling with, you get to eat some m&ms. It can also help to take some time to set up a good workspace. Make sure you've got the supplies you need and good lighting. Wearing noise cancelling headphones can help if you're in a noisy area, or you have to share a workspace and maybe try putting up a Do Not Disturb sign. This can let others know that you're trying to get stuff done. For some people changing up your location can help. So maybe try working at the public library or at a friend's house, or even just out on your back deck. Hannah Choi 15:32Okay, next up, start small and stay small! The tool I mentioned before that STM that's a great example of starting small, the first step of using that tool is to break your big task down into small tasks. Time management, planning and prioritizing are the EF skills that come up most of this strategy. If I'm having trouble getting started on something I'm writing like this episode, for example, I always make an outline. And my outline doesn't even start off looking like an actual outline, I just do a messy brain dump. And I type some words that come to me on the page. And actually, you don't even have to type. You can use voice recognition software. If you're working in Google Docs, turn on the Google Voice type in the Tools menu. And you can just dump the contents of your brain right onto the paper without even lifting a finger. You can also use a speech to text app right on your phone. Another great strategy that many Beyond BookSmart coaches share with their clients is the beloved Five-Minute Goals. This is such a great strategy because it both gets you to do the thing, but it also gives you an out. You only have to do the thing for five minutes or even two minutes if five feels like too long. Okay, so you set a timer and do the thing when the timer goes off, I'm willing to bet you that you'll experience what my daughter shared. Procrastination Consultant 4 16:57Well, sometimes I like to say just do it for a minute, because then eventually I'll forget about it and just keep going. Hannah Choi 17:06Okay, if I'm wrong, and you can't relate to what she said, and you find yourself praising the timer gods and being glad that the five minutes is over, maybe it's not a great time for you to do the thing anyway. We know that starting small is essential and so is continuing this approach while you work. Continually breaking things down into small chunks is a great way to help yourself get through the things you don't want to do. Don't expect your effort to be effective for hours without a break. And if you discover a new task within the larger thing that you're doing, be sure to break that down toHannah Choi 17:43Okay, My fifth tip goes back to what I was talking about earlier, how I was struggling to get started on this podcast because I wasn't sure if I could do it the right way. So my advice is to try to be okay with imperfection, which to some of you is gonna sound impossible. I know. I totally get it. This is personally what often gets in the way of me getting started. self regulation and flexible thinking are two of the EF skills that can help one of my favorite books about procrastination. It's about time by Linda Sapadin. In it Dr. Sapadin writes about how perfectionist procrastinators are aiming for you guessed it perfection. And since they know that the risk of failing to reach perfection is extremely high, they may put the thing off entirely to avoid failure, or wait until last minute so they can blame what they see as an imperfect product on something else other than themselves. If this resonates with you, you might try working on striving for excellence instead of perfection. High performing successful athletes are coached for this and it works. So go for really great not perfect. Hannah Choi 18:56Dr. Sapadin suggests changing your language, instead of saying "I should do this thing". Try saying "I could do this thing". This shifts your thinking from seeing the thing that you have to do as a burden to seeing it from a viewpoint of realism and choice. I feel like you could use this change in language as an opportunity to throw in some of the other strategies here too. "I should write this episode on procrastination" becomes "I could write this episode on procrastination sitting on the back deck rewarding myself with five m&ms after I finished a sentence". Excuse me while I go raid my kids' Halloween candy. Hannah Choi 19:36I think a lot of perfectionist procrastinators would likely benefit from some reflection on their relationship with failure. Like I said in the episode on failure, when scientists do experiments to create or test something they don't look for perfection right away. If they did, nothing would ever get invented. Right? One of my favorites, James Clear who is the author of Atomic Habits wrote a great article on his blog about this idea, you can find the link to the article in the show notes. And in it, he encourages us to be honest with ourselves and figure out what is needed versus what is optimal. Yeah, of course, we'd love to be able to dive into something with everything all perfect. So we can have this perfect outcome, but it's just not realistic. And it's also not as interesting, we learn a heck of a lot more about the thing that we're tackling and about ourselves. And we actually allow ourselves to create without fear of imperfection, the results of this are actually just beautifully messy iterations of the thing we're working towards, they're stepping stones towards something we can be happy with. And creating space for these iterations can't happen if we leave things to the last minute, right. Many of my procrastination consultants said they rely on urgency. Procrastination Consultant 2 20:55Most of the time, it's deadlines. And like a sense of urgency that makes me makes me want to do it.Procrastination Consultant 5 21:02Deadlines. Usually, that's what motivates me, I just have no more time left to put it off. And then I have to do it. And I also just like to work under pressure. It just gives me that adrenaline to get it done.Procrastination Consultant 3 21:15What I do to get going, is either come up against a deadline where I have no choice, and I simply have to do it. No excuses.Procrastination Consultant 9 21:25I think it's because I'm motivated by deadlines and I only will start to start a project or something. If I'm moving close that deadline, and I get anxiety inducing effects of that. And that motivates me to then start.Procrastination Consultant 10 21:40I think deadlines approaching faster, like I will absolutely do it. When it's like okay, I can do this, and it's due in 10 minutes, or I need to do this by tomorrow, then I'll finally, that's what forces me honestly, nothing else will get me to do it. Unless the deadline is like, right there. Hannah Choi 21:58I'm guessing that many of you listening are nodding your head saying Yep, that's me. You may like working this way. And if you do, you'll hear no judgement from me. I do encourage you to keep listening though there may be a way to break free from the urgency reliance. Hannah Choi 22:13Okay, let's jump back into our brains for a sec. Remember that limbic system from the beginning of this episode? Well, the amygdala is part of the limbic system, and it's responsible for the flight or fight response you've likely heard of, and probably experienced, well, waiting till the last minute and relying on urgency to get stuff done is stressful, whether we realize it or not. And it causes our brains to be hijacked by the amygdala. And during an amygdala hijack, our bodies release stress hormones, which are not great. So out of concern for your beautiful brains and your healthy bodies, I challenge those of you who use urgency as a motivator to experiment with not relying on urgency with not waiting for that adrenaline to kick in and force you to get the work done. I totally get that this may seem utterly impossible to you. Or you might not even be interested in trying, but at least hear me out. If you feel like you must absolutely rely on urgency, you might try building in fake urgency. Of course, this requires you to basically trick yourself into thinking the thing needs to be done earlier than it truly does, which I admit sounds pretty difficult. But try just try starting something just like a tiny bit earlier than you normally would use some of the strategies I just explored, especially the ones where you work to break the large tasks down into smaller tasks. These mini deadlines can help. And this is also why building in that buffer time I mentioned earlier in the episode is so helpful. With buffer time, we can adjust how small our steps are. Some days you're going to be feeling ultra-productive and others will just be a slog. giving ourselves the space to keep things small can really help on those days. But leaving it to the last minute doesn't allow for that and then we have to push through regardless of how we feel. This strategy is what works well for me. If I leave things to the last minute my anxiety takes over and makes it so I can't even do a task at all. One of my consultants shared that she experiences this too. Procrastination Consultant 10 24:25Packing and stuff? I knew I needed to start packing I didn't procrastinate because I'm like, oh, that's gonna stress me out if I wait too late. I don't know I'd like selective procrastination. Hannah Choi 24:34If you aren't able to break free from urgency and start even just a tiny bit earlier, use your metacognition to notice how you feel and notice the quality of your work. I'm willing to wager a good amount of m&ms that you'll have a better experience feel better about your work and in turn feel better about yourself. Hannah Choi 24:57This is the last episode of our first You send a focus forward, and we will return on October 5, and will bring you more interesting topics, fascinating guests and support for you as you work to develop your executive function skills. If I have learned anything over the course of the last 11 episodes of this podcast it is to embrace my fear of failure. It has taken a lot of work and it will continue to take a lot of work. One of my favorite quotes ever is from psychologist Susan David. And Susan says "Discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life". And this podcast has added more meaning to my life than I ever imagined and it was one of the hardest and most uncomfortable things I've ever done. I have to admit that this episode in particular was originally scheduled for much earlier in this podcast season. But in an ironic twist due to scheduling changes, and my own perfectionist procrastination tendencies, it ended up being the perfect topic for the last episode of the season. I know my lesson here is to not go for perfection, but sometimes you end up with it when you just try for excellence.Hannah Choi 26:13I can't even begin to thank you, our listeners enough for all the support you've given me and my podcast team over the past 11 episodes. I want to personally thank Sean Potts, Justice Abbott, Mimi Fernandez and Jackie Hebert for all of their help from the beginning. And special thanks to Annabel Furber, Barbara Garvin-Kester, Denise McMahon, John Frank and Michael Delman for their help on this episode. And a very, very special shout out for my procrastination consultants who also happen to be very special people in my life: Graham, Eliza, Bonnie, Isabelle, Nikolai, Justice, Maura, Julia, Aidan, Lynette, and William. And as always, thank you for being here and taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics we've covered in each episode of Focus Forward, please share it with the special people in your life. And be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when the first episode of the new season drops and we'll share topics and information related to the episode. Thanks for listening. Oh, and I didn't forget - here's Maura sharing her experience with procrastination, or should I say not procrastinating? Hannah Choi 27:34Do you procrastinate?Procrastination Consultant 11 27:35Never, never. No, no, no, I'm like the kind of person. If I have something to do, I have to do. Why, why I do tomorrow if I can do now or today?

Despite being a common diagnosis, many people with ADHD may go most of their lives without ever officially being diagnosed. Although there are a number of challenges that this presents, one of the most frustrating is that the longer ADHD is left untreated, the more difficult it becomes to change our habits. Even so, that doesn't mean it's impossible - and our guest today proves it!For this week's episode, I invited Bob Shea - a renowned children's author who only recently received an ADHD diagnosis at age 52 - to talk about the trials and triumphs he experienced living with hidden ADHD for so long. Although Bob has some legitimate regrets about not getting diagnosed sooner, he's worked hard to address his challenge areas and make meaningful transformations in his habits. As a result, Bob has seen major improvements in both his personal and professional life that he's excited to share with our listeners. He also reveals the tools, systems, and interventions that helped him along the way. His contributions to the podcast reveal an important lesson - it's never too late to get the support we need to become the best version of ourselves. I know you'll enjoy listening to Bob's advice, wit, and humor just as much as I did during our conversation.Here are some relevant resources related to our conversation:ADHD ResourcesOn-Demand Webinar: ADHD Fundamentals - What you need to succeed after diagnosis: This is the link to a webinar Beyond BookSmart held recently. If you register, you’ll gain instant access to the webinar. 8 Things You Need to Know About ADHD After a Diagnosis: A blog that summarizes key points from the webinar linked above.ADHD Information for Adults: This website includes information on medication and non-medication approaches to managing ADHD.How To ADHD YouTube Channel: An amazing channel that tries to both normalize and help support the trials and tribulations of living with ADHD. Dr. Tracey Marks - Skills Training for ADHD Playlist: A fantastic psychologist and content creator with invaluable insights on living with ADHD. Other Stuff We DiscussedBob's Planning and Time Management Strategy Here's a pic of Bob's notebook so you can see how he lays out his tasks and week.The Sam Harris Meditation App: This is the meditation app that Bob likes to use every morning.Jetpens.com: Bob's favorite place to shop for pens online. The Pomodoro Technique: 25 Minutes to Increase Productivity: This is the time management approach called the Pomodoro Method that Bob uses. We also use it as coaches!Leuchtturm1917 Notebook: This is the notebook I use for my bullet journal.Time Timer Visual Clock: This is the visual timer that I asked Bob about and then he showed me his which he had on the desk next to him.River Fox BuJo: My daughter’s Pinterest account I mentioned in the episodeBob Shea's Instagram and WebsiteTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. When my kids were little, we spent hours at our local library and we'd go home with 50 or so books at a time. We especially loved picture books that made us laugh. And one day we discovered an author called Bob Shea, and Bob's books quickly became some of our favorites. Thanks to the internet, we found out that Bob also lived in our home state of Connecticut. We followed him on Instagram and really enjoyed his drawing tutorials and quirky posts. And Bob started inviting other children's authors and illustrators to have a conversation with him on Instagram Live every Friday. And one day he had author and illustrator Charles Santoso on for a chat. And Bob openly and very candidly shared about his experience having ADHD. He talked about the time management strategies that he uses, and how important they are for him. I knew at that very moment that I just had to invite Bob on to be a guest on the podcast. So today, I've got you a very entertaining and very real conversation about how ADHD impacts his life, how medication really helped and the tools and strategies that he uses to find satisfaction in his life. And I'm really thrilled to share Bob's story with you today. Before we jump in, I want to acknowledge that not everyone with ADHD uses medication. And whatever choice people make about medication is theirs and theirs alone. There are alternative options for those who choose not to use it. And for those who do use it, they likely find that it doesn't work well just on its own. As you'll hear Bob say it works well for him because he combines it with other non medication strategies. If you are interested in learning more, check out the show notes for more reading and resources on this topic. Okay, now on to the show. Okay. Hi, Bob. Thanks for joining me today. Do you wanna introduce yourself to our listeners? Bob Shea 02:10Sure. My name is Bob Shea. I'm a children's book author and illustrator. And I found out that I had ADHD when I was 52.Hannah Choi 02:24Did you, did you won...have you had you wondered before in your life?Bob Shea 02:30I not in a serious way. It was probably the six months before I was diagnosed that I really started to think that it was more than just character flaws.Hannah Choi 02:51Did something happen? Was there like a some kind of shift in your thinking or something that got you to start with questioning that?Bob Shea 03:00There were two things I did start following some ADHD accounts on Instagram. That was one thing. So that put it on my radar pretty strong. And what would happen was or what happened I remember specifically, someone did a real that had symptoms of ADHD that I had never known would have been things and it was exactly how my brain works like exactly. And it wasn't the traditional. This is what ADHD is why because my the one of the reasons I one of the reasons I didn't think that I had it was because I know people who you know, in five minutes, you're like, Man, this conversation is 20 different subjects. And my my brothers both have it in and in the three of us it presents differently. So that was difficult. I'm not hyperactive, I don't have any of the traditional things. My my thoughts about ADHD were Bart Simpson, bad student acting up can't sit still. I was I did well in school. I wasn't a troublemaker at all. None of those things. So I was like, I don't have any of that stuff. And then there was a day when I was trying to finish a project I was trying to finish a book that I had do. And I couldn't do it like I couldn't pick up my iPad and open up the file and start... like it was due it was like that safety net of, of a looming deadline did not fail to ignite the fire. And I was scrolling on the Instagram instead. Like, compulsively. I was like I can't stop doing this. I'm look I was like I need some kind of stimulation that and the the I was I'm looking forward to doing the book. Like it was not like Yay, I'm gonna do this book and I'm excited finally gonna get to dig in. I've avoided it and I, I made an appointment for the next day with my, with my doctor with a physician's assistant. I went home and told my wife and she was like, Yeah, that's a really good idea.Hannah Choi 05:23She's like, finally the day has come.Bob Shea 05:24She was like, yeah, she was like, Man, she got the worst of it over the years, I'll tell you. So, yeah, so then I went to the, you know, when I went to this appointment, and I almost cancelled it. I was like, you know, just do your work. I'm sure you're fine. She's gonna let I had gone to her one time for Xanax because I had to go on tour. And I didn't want to talk to people that asked for like, I'm like, Look, I just need, I don't take it normally. Like, she has my records. Like, I'm not a drug seeker. But I was like, I'm traveling, I got to talk to people. I need some Xanax. And she was reluctant to give it to me, and like really gave me a hard time about it. And so I was like, she's not going to do anything for this ADHD, she's gonna laugh at me. She's like, come back when you break an arm. That's what I thought it was gonna be when you have when you're bleeding. Give me a call, like not for this. Boo hoo hoo, you can't get your work done. But she was really, really empathetic. And I had I had in the three months prior stop drinking, because it was a pandemic, and I was getting really heavy. Yeah. I was exercising every day. And I was, I had cut sugar out. And I was meditating a lot. I'm a big meditator. And so I went down the litany of what was happening, and that I had that I had and hadn't been doing these things in the last three months. And she said, everything you just said is what I would have told you to do. I would have said, eat better exercise and meditate. She said, if you're doing that stuff, and then she gave me an assessment, and I was laughing, because it was like, they were watching me during my day. I was like, Yes. Like, that's what I do every time. Yeah, they're like, do you like not? Do you get really close to the end of a project and not finish? I'm like, there's something new to do here. Like, right? I'm like, Yeah, you know, like everybody does that like, no, not everybody. And she put me on Adderall right away. And it was flipped, like flipping a switch. It was great. It's wonderful. I know it doesn't work for everyone. And everyone has their own way of treating it. But for me, my wife was like, thank God.Hannah Choi 07:48That's awesome. Yeah, that's so great. It's so great that you that you didn't let the part of you that wanted to not go that that part didn't get its chance. And you just went anyway and talked with her. Yeah. Well, I mean, I actually know that a lot of people are afraid to find out because they don't want to find out that that, that they have X, Y or Z. And but I'm sure it has been your experience. Once you find out it actually can really open up a lot of doors and opportunities and possibilities and totally different way of thinking about yourself.Bob Shea 08:23Just Yeah, I saw my, the past 50 years of my life and an entirely different light. And I was like, Man, why did anybody put up with that guy? He was the worst. I was, I was so glad I actually was birth because I was like, man, like,my life would have been so much different. Had I known that I could have been fixed. But you know, and then the other thing is like, both of my brothers have it. They don't want to do anything about it. Like they like it. And I'm like, really? I'm like I would I can't get rid of it fast enough. I'm like this is I don't I don't spin this into a positive thing at all. For me personally, I'm like, I have I could get I could have been high. Who knows what my life would be like, if I didn't have it? It's not it's not some secret power that I have.Hannah Choi 09:18Right? Right. But like we were talking before we started recording, don't you feel like it has given you some of the creativity that you've needed to to create the do the stuff that you've done, create the books that you've done andBob Shea 09:34yeah, I'm, I'm hesitant to give that so much credit because, but I'll tell you I think that that's true. I think that it allowed me to say, see to make connections I wouldn't have made otherwise when I was coming up with things and what it did was it gave me a unique voice creatively, my sense of humor is very unique to me, for good or for bad. I'm not saying that it's better or worse than anyone. But I'm saying when I write jokes or make a joke, it's comes out of left field. And it's not, Oh, I see what he's doing when he's doing this. It's very strange, for better or worse, but I'll tell you all the things that it didn't wear me all the things that it did for me, I would trade it to be have had a normal life, because I think it was a million times a detriment than it was, then then whatever it gave me.Hannah Choi 10:39Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah,Bob Shea 10:41If I was sitting right now in my office up in Hartford, Connecticut, as executive of insurance company, in the HR department being like, you know, we have a lot of events coming up. And we have to do these things in a nice, neat desk. I'd love nothing more.Hannah Choi 11:00Well, I have to say that I'm really glad that you did not discover your ADHD until you were 52. And I think that there are lots and lots of children in the world that are really glad you didn't. And lots of parents.Bob Shea 11:12Well, I appreciate you saying that. But you know,Hannah Choi 11:15So if you look at your life, since you were diagnosed, since you started, like, you know, taking Adderall and just being okay, I have a diagnosis. This is this is why do you see Have you seen the change? Could you compare the like before and after?Bob Shea 11:33It's night and day, I mean, that there's there's work things like like right now, I'm as busy as I've ever been in my career. Right now, for the last two months, and probably going into the next couple of weeks, I have so much to do. And it's fine. Like, it's not, I'll have to work this evening, I'll have to get up early in work. But it's fine. I can. I can see it for what it is. I it's not overwhelming things. I was overwhelmed. I was overwhelmed all the time. And that affected my relationship with my family. Because nobody can talk to me. Because you have so much going on in your head. That is all equally important. That was the thing. Everything you had to do was just as important as the other next thing, which actually wasn't as important. So when my wife would come in the room and go, Hey, what should we have for dinner? I'd be like, how can you come in here and add another thing to this pile that's in my head, right? And now I'm just I'm so much more pleasant to be around. I was irritable all the time. I was I thought I thought it was over. I thought I thought I was going to I thought we were going to split up because it may like we didn't talk about it. But in my head. I was like head in my head. I was like, I don't know what's wrong with me. But I can't be around people.Hannah Choi 13:04Do you think that it was it's mostly that medicine that has changed things for you?Bob Shea 13:11Yes, you know, yeah, because, but that but there's I have to explain that a little bit. I do think that that's the case because I wanted to change. I didn't want to be like that. I knew that I was I knew that I was a jerk. And I knew that I was impatient, and that I couldn't she on the weekends. She'd be honest. She's like, you know, when you're home on the weekend, all you want to do is be at work. I know that you're I know that you're not happy. I couldn't, I couldn't relax. I couldn't go just do something. And it was because I thought I had failed the previous week, getting things done. And so I was trying to always try to catch up. I was always trying to catch up. The medication allowed me to make use of the systems I had been trying to put in place because it was always planners. So always had calendars, planners. How do I do this? How do I do this? And once I took the medication, I was able to do all the things. And everything fell into place. It's all it's all a bit. It's not just oh, it took a pill. I was fun. It was it was a framework of things. And knowing that you're even now I'm like, You're bad at this. So you have to do this more than other people do. Because you're so bad at it. Yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 14:32So what's what kind of systems and strategies do work for you?Bob Shea 14:36It's sort of a it's sort of a mix of a lot of different systems that I had found. But But basically, it's capturing all the information in your head. So I I just did it this morning because it's Monday. I usually do it on Sundays. I write down everything I have to do that week like and it's all in a big pile. So it can be work on this illustration. And the next thing could be make an appointment for a haircut. Like it's not there's no over here you put work and over here you put it it's it's a, it's a messy list on the page next to that I put big blocks because I have to see things and I can't do this on the computer, I have to write it down with my hands, or else. It all looks the same on the computer. It's just like typed words. It could be anything. Yep. And now, because a draw, we're like writing a list, you can draw a little picture of something. Oh, yeah. Whatever. Yeah. So then I, so then I do the days of the week next to that, just horizontal bars of Monday through Friday. And then I drop in roughly, where what I'm going to do on what day really rough like not like you at three o'clock are going to do this. Yes. Then when the day comes...this all sounds so complicated. And it's not. Then on the day I draw a box for every half hour of the day, I make a list, I make a list, I'm going to I'm like, I'm going to work on this. And I'm going to work on this and I make a box for every half hour of the day and I write in the box, what I'm going to work on at what time and it's it is very flexible. If I don't, I'm okay with that. But I have to just know that I have a plan. I will not make this punitive because I will be mad at it. So it's to help me it is not to punish me ever. And one of the things that I did it first, or one of the things that helped the time while blindness was so bad because I'd be like I have a book to I'll take me two days, I don't know, that's fine. You know what I mean? Like, I had no concept. So what, so what I do is I write what I plan to do in that in those blocks time. Then when they pass, I go, and I don't do it immediately. Like at the end of the day, I'll say, Boy, I thought that thing was going to take me an hour and a half took me three hours. That's awesome. So I'm training myself to know what things really take like, oh, going to the post office, that's probably negative 20 minutes. Like, really, you gotta get an envelope, gotta find the right size envelope, you got to pick up the address the person gave you you got to seal it, you got to walk down, there's probably going to be aligned, you know, you're gonna get a coffee after because you did an errand and you need a treat. And then you know, by the time you get back, like how long did that trip to the post office, it takes an hour. And then you have to be like, alright, you have to go to the post office today that costs an hour. Like and then you know, because then you're like, then you're not, you overestimate what you can get done. And then at the end of the day, you feel terrible. You're like, you beat yourself up and you're like, what's wrong with me? And you're like, Yeah, you know?Hannah Choi 17:48Yeah, time blindness is a really big. It can, it can really impact so many aspects of your life like, like actually just running out of time. But then also the your opinion that you have it yourself. Yeah, if you constantly are not estimating the time correctly, then you're just gonna feel like you can't get anything done.Bob Shea 18:12Yeah, yeah. And as a result as a result of doing that. And the medication I don't take on as much. Yeah, ever. Because now when I see so if I'm sitting here, and I go online, or whatever, and I go, Hey, look at little felted animals, looks fun. I could get some felt. And I'm gonna make little, like penguins and foxes. It'll be adorable. I'm a children's book author. I should be doing this whimsical stuff all day. And then you go and you look that stuff up. And you buy felts and you got felting needles and stuff. And then you're like, how am I going to do this? And then the reality hits.Hannah Choi 18:55It's just so funny because my other my other job is I, I teach fiber arts classes with a friend of mine and that's like exactly what we do!Bob Shea 19:07Right? But it looks really fun. I have the needles here. I in my closet, I have the needles. But now I see that and I go Yeah, that'd be fun if you have time because and the only reason I say this because I'm like, Well, what are you going to do the other 20 things I taught myself that. Agreeing to do something means you're saying you're not going to do something else. Right? And I'm talking to the guitar in my corner. Okay?Hannah Choi 19:37Just this morning, I was talking to a client and he, he is an adult who was also recently diagnosed with ADHD. And he was talking about how, like for work he's doing really great like staying on to on on track and not taking on too much. You know, and checking like, Is this realistic? Like if my you know, am I is it realistic to take on another client or whatever. And then and then we were talking about how you also have to kind of do that in your, you know, in the in the fun things. Like you, you, you might want to make the felted animals and play the guitar and you know, be really good at all these things. But if you would you ask you have to ask yourself the same thing you ask yourself with your work, like, is it realistic to take on all of these things? If you if you take on too much, you can't do it all and then you just beat yourself up?Bob Shea 20:29Yeah, that's the thing. I could enjoy none of the things. Yeah. And all it was was another source of tension with my wife, because it's like, my half done projects were all over the place. And she was like, can you just throw this out? Now just bring it to Goodwill, or give it to somebody throw it away? And she was right. But I mean, I was like, I was like, I'm gonna make that it's gonna be great. And that's the other thing too with ADHD, you can't be bad at things. Like if I played guitar, I was like, I'm gonna be really good at it. So I didn't say that with guitar, but with most most things. I'm like, I don't want to just, I don't want to do this half measure. I want to be good at it. It's like, Well, yeah. And again, with the paying attention to how long things take. I'm like, I can't do anything else.Hannah Choi 21:15Yeah, right.Bob Shea 21:16I'm full! Like even with work, I'm like, when are you gonna do all these amazing?Hannah Choi 21:21There's only so many hours in a day. Yeah. And you have to sleep and you have to eat and you have to have some downtime.Bob Shea 21:27Yeah, I belong to a Makerspace in New Haven. And it's good and it's bad, because it's great because I can go there for the day. And I'm like, I'm just doing this and I enjoy it. And I I said to my... I stopped putting up requirements on myself. I'm like, when I go in, you're gonna fail at all the things and not walk out with a wooden, whatever you were making. You're going to walk out with your materials all ruin that you paid for. And just and but I'm like, That's the day that's fine. And the other thing, the other other reason it's bad is because they keep getting new stuff, which Oh, wow, you guys gotta chill. So I could do pottery? Oh, my gosh, I'm looking at slip casting. And what do I need? What do I need to buy for this? Man, I'm like that. So now I'm like, ignore that, don't learn how to use the tablesawHannah Choi 22:23You're getting a lot of practice of saying no.Bob Shea 22:25I am! I'm just ignoring stuff. I'm like, I let me tell you, I hate Pre-Adderall Guy so much, that I'm saying no out of spite. I'm like, you don't deserve to make pottery. Help bring another thing into the house. You. I see you back there. You know, because it's still I'm still the same thing. Like my brain still is seeking those that stimulation to like, it's still dopamine, when I'm like, a new thing to learn. There's a lot of dopamine in that goldmine of dopamine. So passing that up as Adderall makes you say, you've got enough to get by. You don't need to go look for other places, even social media. I'm on social media so much less. I used to be on Twitter all the time.Hannah Choi 23:17So going back to the strategies that you use, how did you develop those? How'd you come up with those?Bob Shea 23:22Even before the Adderall, I was obsessed with time management. Always, always, always, always, unsuccessfully. I remember in the 90s, A long time ago, I went and did a Franklin Planner thing. And I think I kept a Franklin Planner for a while, like for a year, probably about a year and then I had to refill it. And I'm like, fellas, I'm gonna have to do that anymore. But I always remember the sort of the principles and stuff. And I remember now thinking back, like it's not ADHD friendly. Like they're very, it's very, like, it's for people who already have their act together. And it's just a way to clean up their act.Hannah Choi 24:08Those linear thinkersBob Shea 24:09It's so I always thought it's always like, something wrong with me. I thought I always thought it was like a character failing that I had, I was like, Well, you know, I was like, You know what, I always hated sports. When I was growing up, I probably just don't have discipline. And that's a now that's why they always wanted you to do that, so that you could do a boring task that you didn't want to do. And then, so I had an even I was even going back to the makerspace I was designing all these electronics, things that were all about how to remind me to do things. Every one thing, I had a thing where I'm still making this one, and that's not me lying, it's my first project. I was gonna have more successful authors than may record a message to me like, "Hey, how's that book coming you were telling me about?" Yeah, and then randomly during the day, it would announce that whatever I was doing was like, Oh, I was looking at felted animals. Back to work, yeah. I had I have it all sketched out, like, how it works. And the components I need, but everything I did everything I was like, seriously, I was like, I'm going to film, because I didn't know how the day worked. I'm going to film this was an idea of flowers, drying and decaying and falling off the thing. And then I'm going to play it fast during the day over eight hours, so that when I looked up, I go, Oh, the things are starting to fall. That means I have this much time. I was trying to, I was trying to find ways to look at time visually that I'd understand and not like just a clock, which I'm like, that's just the number I don't know. Because you come in in the beginning of the day, and you're like, I have all day. You know, and you're like, well, and then you're like, Well, I'm gonna go get a cup of coffee. I'm gonna go take a walk. And then I'm like, Jesus running out real quick.Hannah Choi 26:06Yeah, like half a day now. Have you heard of the Time timers were like shows a red...like, It's like, it looks like a clock. And yeah. That right there. Do you use it?Bob Shea 26:19Sorry about that noise. That's part of my thing with with the, with the blocks that I draw out the half hour blocks, 25 minutes, because it's the Pomodoro Technique, basically. Yeah. Yeah. Are you if that is the I'll tell you something. The timers are the key to everything. If if I use the timers, the days I'm I'm, I'm diligent about using the timers. That's a good day. If I'm just like, oh, just freestyle it today. It's like it's not a bad day, it still works falls apart a lot easier. Those timers, because it gives you a little deadline. Yep. And you look at that thing. And you're right, like the visual thing for me was huge. And so for that deadline, I go, I tell myself, you can't look at your phone, because you're working. And so then that way I go, Well, there's only 15 minutes, I can not look at my phone for 15 minutes. But if I don't have the time, or it's every three minutes up, pick it up. Yeah, I'm better about it now, but that's how it works. I also blocked Instagram on everything but my laptop so that when I sit down, it's intentional. Like I'm gonna go on Instagram now. Look at messages I do. scroll a little bit. It's boring on your laptop. You're not on the sofa looking at TV and doing it. So I'm out faster. I'm in and out faster. And and then on my devices for work. Like my iPad. No. No social media. Still the news? I still look at the news all the time. But no social media. Yeah. Pinterest is great. I like Pinterest. Yes.Hannah Choi 27:57It is great. My daughter is like slowly racking up a whole bunch of followers. She does bullet journaling. Yeah, she does. She does bullet journal. She has this bullet journal. She's 13 years old. And she's really starting everyday. She's like, Oh, I have like 20 more followers. She's up to 350! Yeah, it's so cool. But she like shares like her that art the art that she did it for the week and how she laid it out. AndBob Shea 28:24Does she get this she get... she's been to like JetPens, right? And she gets all this stuff fromHannah Choi 28:29I don't know what JetPens is. But she's got all the pens. Bob Shea 28:32Sorry, I told you because oh, there's a whole other world of pens you don't know aboutHannah Choi 28:38JetPens, okay, I gotta write that down. Bob Shea 28:39So good. I love I love that stuff. And like pencil cases and like pencil sharpeners that look like pandas. Hannah Choi 28:48And you guys could talk for hours. She's totally into it. Bob Shea 28:52So So I give her a lot of credit, because I couldn't keep up with a bullet journal. My thing is like black ink and then read for like, what I really did, because I'm like, I had to pare it down to a simpler.Hannah Choi 29:04Yeah. Well, I keep a bullet journal too. But mine is also like, super. It's just like, there's nothing fancyBob Shea 29:11Yeah, that's what mine looks like. Yeah. And you have the same you have that kind to Yeah. Yeah, my wife made minus 10 or something.Hannah Choi 29:20Yeah, yeah. IBob Shea 29:20don't know how you say it. I use those a lot for other things. But I don't but I use a different I just use a grid. Very simple one because I go through so many of them.Hannah Choi 29:30Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So keeping systems like that requires some practice. It requires quite a bit of perseverance and quite a bit of, you know, discipline. What motivates you to stick with it?Bob Shea 29:49This I think what, what motivates me to stick with it is that, like I said before, it's not punitive. It's not it's not it's here to help me not make me feel bad. So as I use it things that don't work for me, it was a little more not complicated. There were more, there was more to it when I first started doing it, anything that didn't sort of serve me I got rid of. So now it's like, it's a way to collect my thoughts. It's not a way to to be a taskmaster that you have to do these things. At the end of the day, a lot of times, I'll have gotten made a lot of progress on things, but maybe not even the things I thought I was going to do. And then I'm like, that's still a good day, I made a lot of progress. And I'm proud of what I did. Like, I'm glad that I moved the needle on this project. The other project can wait a day, because I have long deadlines. You know, like, I don't usually I think, like when I was doing graphic design, like maybe I didn't notice it much because it was like That thing's due in two days, like and it would be like in the next week, something else would be due now. It's like months at a time. That's bad for people like me.Hannah Choi 31:01Long term planning is like a whole different set of skills thatBob Shea 31:04I'm still working on that that is like, time makes no sense to me. Three months, like, that's never gonna happen. It's never gonna be here.Hannah Choi 31:14Have you ever watched inside the mind of a master procrastinator with Tim Urban? He, it's a TED Talk that...Bob Shea 31:22Yes, I think so! He has he does his thesis in the last day. That was hilarious. Yeah. So good. Before I knew I had ADHD. Yeah, it's hilarious!Hannah Choi 31:35it's a great, that's such a great example of exactly what you just.Bob Shea 31:41Yeah, yeah. It's like, and it's, I'm not. I so I just turned in a book. A couple of, I'm in the revision process of it now. And I was proud of myself. Because it was only two weeks late, instead of three months, like yeah, I was real- And I'm sure they are, but it was a new art director and I don't think that they were as proud of me as I am.Hannah Choi 32:05You're like, you don't know what this means.Bob Shea 32:08Like, I'm like, checking outside to see if the UPS guys bring in like, you know, a Harry and David box gift basket. Two weeks late, two weeks late, not three months. Like, oh, look, guess who's almost like a normal person?Hannah Choi 32:26That's so great.Bob Shea 32:27I have friends who are like, Yeah, this isn't due till September. So I finished it early, so I could get out some other things. I'm like, What are you talking about? I've never, ever done that. Ever. That's the thing. I had a friend who told me he did that. And then I was telling him about the ADHD. And he's like, maybe I have ADHD. I said, let's take a step back. Yeah. Remember how you told me? You just finished something up? That's not due for three months? No, no, no, no. I'm not a medical professional, but no.Hannah Choi 33:01So funny. What do you think would happen if you turned something in on time?Bob Shea 33:06I might have no, I don't know. I have no idea what that's like, I think that I'm gonna tell you though, I see the I see the benefit of doing that. This sounds so dumb. This sounds like such a, Are you new to being in the world? Like, if I so working alone and making up my own projects and things it's like, it's it's so much more helpful to me to have a system and try to get in on time. Because that frees up time for other things. Not felted animals, other projects that could maybe make money, right? Like there's, I mean, it's a balance with the kids books, because I can't, I can't have people be like, Man, he's cranking these things out once again. You right, you know what I mean? Like, Hannah Choi 33:57Can't be too productive! Bob Shea 33:58Good, right, like, have a side hustle. I can drive for Uber in those two weeks. That's what I could have been doing.Hannah Choi 34:08No, no, Bob. Bob Shea 34:10I don't think that's not a good idea. Hannah Choi 34:11You obviously did something different to get your three week overdue and a three month overdueness down to two week, two weeks overdue. What do you do different?Bob Shea 34:20That was that that's the last piece that I'm working on now. What is the long term plan? I can't I don't understand how time works. I don't get that. You know, I don't get that. Laters not does not a thing. Laters Not a thing. And it's not better than now. Like the way I behave now? Yeah, I'm gonna behave like that tomorrow. Like, I'm like, I can be like, Oh, tomorrow when I wake up, I'm gonna be all put together. You know what I mean? So now this machine that I've made that can kind of not a very fast moving thing. It's it's constantly pressing forward, which is good and not speedy. But so it's only recently that I've acknowledged that the future is going to happen, whether I like it or not. So I start to use. So now I am using a calendar. On my computer, which I don't like to do, I should actually get a physical one. And I'm writing in dates things are due so that I can see them approach. Yeah, that's good. I know that I have something due on August 1. And I'm already obsessed about it not obsessed. But I'm already like, if you don't get started on July 1, you're never going to get that done. I know that that's and I'm like, I can't. Last minute panic. It gets old after 50 years. Yeah.Hannah Choi 35:47Takes the wear and tear on your body. Yeah. What if instead of... what if you put the deadline- So you have the deadline that it's due on August 1? What if on the calendar on July 1, you wrote, like, start the thing?Bob Shea 36:04Yeah, that's, that's what I should do. And I did. I did that. The one that was two weeks late, I put in every day like you are supposed to be working on this thing. I am the worst employee. I just, I That stuff's easy. If I'm like, if it's due in 30 days, I'm like, Well, I can go to MakeHaven today. You know what I mean? Because it's 30, I still got 29 days - work a little harder.Hannah Choi 36:36And I suppose thinking, well, if I just do it all now and I get it done five days before the due date, then I could spend five full days in a row at MakeHaven.Bob Shea 36:46that sounds like a wonderful world that I do. You know, I'll tell you, I have that conversation with myself in a very convincing manner. executing that plan, to a degree where all the steps are taken care of in a in a timely way. And let me tell you something, too. It's not me. It's not me blowing it off. It's, it takes longer than I guess. So even with this thing, even. And then things happen that you don't anticipate. You know, that's the other thingHannah Choi 37:19Yeah. And the unpredictable variables of life,Bob Shea 37:22That and that's even going back to the boxes, and it applies to the month to going back to the boxes. If you write down what really happens. You can look back and go, oh, there's all these things that I didn't know in the morning were going to happen that I had to deal with. And so you don't feel bad. At the end of the day. You're like, well, it wasn't my fault. I wasn't I wasn't like googling what movie was Nicolas Cage in in the 90s was the thing and they switched faces. You know what I mean? You're like, you don't you don't stop to do that. As long as I'm like working and not like, just looking at, you know, woodworking videos. What I like to do - keep that to my personal time.Hannah Choi 38:05Yeah, having some flexibility, like, like, flexibility both in what we do during the day and also like recognizing that, that we cannot be rigid all the time. We cannot. As much as we want to stick to whatever we have planned for that day, it just doesn't. Yeah, definitely gonna happen.Bob Shea 38:25Yeah, it's, it's, it's about being honest with yourself about how you work, and then saying, Look, you work this way. Here's what'll work with that without you beating yourself up because I because I couldn't figure it out. Because I was like, I did all this stuff in my career to get to the point where I'm have autonomy. I can work by myself. I come up with my own projects. Great, great, great. And I'm like, and then you ruin it because you're on stupid Twitter. Why would you do that? You have you? Here's everything that you wanted. And you undermine yourself. It's awful. It wasHannah Choi 39:10How much do you think that had to do with fear? The fear that you weren't going to be do it do it right or fear that it was going to be uncomfortable while you were doing whatever it was.Bob Shea 39:22That's a big part of it because I would - the books - I can't look at books that I did already. From the past. Somebody's using an angle grinder outside. So I can't look at Yeah, so good. It's like, I hope I hope they're making a playground. Something good.Hannah Choi 39:45I never found out what my neighbors were doing.Bob Shea 39:48Right. Hold on. Let me look real quick. Oh, soft serve ice cream. It's gonna be good. Yeah,Hannah Choi 39:55Wait! That's another distraction. Now, I think they're building a brand location of the makerspaceBob Shea 40:02Oh, that's good. Right there. Right? They are. It's they're putting in a table saw. More noise, Great. Yeah, you know, you get so excited for these projects. And in your head, it's perfect. It's the best thing you've ever done. And then you can then you put it down on paper, and there it is going through the filter of your abilities.Hannah Choi 40:25And your own self criticism, I'm sureBob Shea 40:27I can't I was saying before, before they were making the ice cream stand outside, but I can't look at my old books. I can't open them up. People are like, Oh, what was that thing? And I'm like, I'm not going I'm not opening that again. All you see is the things you did wrong. And and in my case, all I see is Yeah, you did that at the last minute, didn't you? Yeah, you're a champ. You're a prince. Look at that, aren't you Like, aren't you professional?Hannah Choi 40:53I'm so curious. I want I kind of want to follow up with you in a couple of years and see, like, if you, like see how your thought processes about your own work have changed? Yeah, I'd be interesting to see that.Bob Shea 41:07I think that I think that I'm managing expectations about that. And as long as I can be comfortable with myself, I'm fine. Like I said, like the overwhelm went away. So I'm not always like, yeah, I sort of can just accept things the way they are and be like, yeah, that's okay. And I'll tell you, that is so huge. Like, it's so huge.Hannah Choi 41:35Yeah. So I'm, I'm doing an episode on procrastination. So would you say you are a procrastinator?Bob Shea 41:46Yep. Yeah, more. So before the Adderall for sure. Yeah, yeah, I still do it. And now when I do it, I can stop if I want to. But also, if I'm doing it, and I know that I'm doing it, I'm like, give yourself a break. You're okay. It's not that big a deal. Because what the other thing is about understanding how you work. So I write this grid during the day, the last couple of hours, like probably from from four to four to six. You're not getting anything done. Like you're not, you get it you get an ice cube of creativity every day, you get like, here's this, you can you have this for like an hour and a half, and then you're not gonna get anything good. Stop. So I know from four to six, I'm like, Alright, clean up your office, which is still a mess from ADHD, I'm still working on that. Clean your office reply to emails, low cognitive load things. Yeah. Because that's the time when I'll be like, looking at Instagram or something. Because I'm, I'm out, I'm out, I'm out of stuff, you know.Hannah Choi 42:53So something that I try to work a lot with my clients on is is exactly that, like noticing, diminishing returns, noticing when your effort is not, is not being effective anymore. And so that's so great that you, you know that about yourself, and you know, what the things that you can do, instead of just messing around, like, you know, you can still do some things, which is going to make you feel better about yourself by the end of the day, like, oh, like, like all these other things that I did? Yeah, I may not have like, written more or drawn more, but I did make my space more usable,Bob Shea 43:30Which is another goal. Like it's one of the things so it's like, yeah, I can I can move piles around for the next hour from one spot to the next. Just which is another thing I can't I bet it. I can't see. I'm clutter-blind as well. Anyway, but uh, but yeah, that's, that's the thing is to just be easy. Go easy on yourself. And if you if you know that you're diligently trying don't like I'm like, yeah, they know. It's all working out. Okay, it's all from everything's for my benefit. So I don't mind it so much.Hannah Choi 44:04Yeah, that's great. And being able to do that self reflection is so important. And, and, and recognizing, like, what your strengths are and what's challenging, and how you can use both of those. Bob Shea 44:17Yeah, a lot of that, too. I mentioned before I'm a big meditator meditation has allowed me to understand my thoughts as they're happening, and to recognize thought patterns and be like, alright, I see what it is you're doing now. And you take your level you're a little distanced from you don't become your thoughts. You're able to like observe them and go, alright, you you don't want to do this. Why not? Yeah. And then think about what else can I do instead? And that lets me shift and then that way I'm not hooked on the well you back off other thought because I'm getting some dopamine from this Instagram and then I'm gonna ride this for a while.Hannah Choi 45:05So how do you? How did you get into meditation? And how do you keep yourself? How do you? How do you keep up with the practice?Bob Shea 45:13I, you know, my, my mother in the 70s was into back when it was a super popular thing. She was into Tm. It's a transcendental meditation because it was like on the Merv Griffin Show. You know,Hannah Choi 45:26I remember people talking about that when I was little.Bob Shea 45:28Yeah, you know, I was like, That guy was on TV all the time. It was super like it was a pop culture thing. And then she would do it, she went to some meditation thing, tried to get us boys to do it, we laughed, and we're like, I'm not doing this. We tried once. You can't make people meditate, you cannot make them do it. But I always remembered that she did you know. And so I think when I was like, in my 20s, I started doing it again, late, my late 20s, I did it. And I did it in a different way. I didn't do TM, but I would just do it with the real. And again, I had to do the ADHD, I'm like, You need to build this muscle of focus. And so I did it that way for a while. And it was fine. It was fine. It was good. I didn't really know what I was getting out of it. And then I started to use the Sam Harris app a couple of years ago. And that's really the thing where he walks you through why you're doing it and how to do it and all this stuff. And that and he's like, he comes at it from a point of view of not like it's a spiritual thing. It's other goes my my cuckoo clock to did let me know that an hour has passed in my head. So I have an understanding of time. I've 10 clocks all around the thing. I'm obsessed with clocks now. It's a good one. Yeah, and I'll let the bird keep talking for a second. There it goes. And that the keeping up on the practice is, all of these things work in tandem, I have to, I can tell when I'm eating poorly, if I'm not exercising, if I'm not doing meditation. Life's worse. Like even with the medication life's worse. So if I try to try to ride my bike in every day, I usually when I you know, and this is more of a habit forming than anything else. Usually what I'll do is when I get in right away, I'll sit and meditate. When I walk in the door, put my stuff down, sit on the cushion. There's on the app, it's a meditation everyday 20 minutes do it and it's over. Like when I wake up when I wake up. I try to write for a while. Then I'll exercise that I might go for a run. I'm in, meditate, set, it all sounds wonderful. It sounds like you have this wonderful thing. It's all it's all tension. It's all motivated by fear. So that's the foundation is fear. So but it all helps me stay focused a little bit.Hannah Choi 47:54Yeah, right. It's a fear of not feeling good, right? I feel a fear of failing, you know, those strategies are to help you be successful.Bob Shea 48:02I can feel better. I feel better. If I get sleep. I have to get enough sleep. And then I just I feel so much better. I'm so much more able to deal with things.Hannah Choi 48:13Yeah, I I really feel that with exercise. Like for me, I really need to exercise if I don't exercise then I tend to really beat myself up a lot. And when I exercise I'm much gentler myself. And I actually just ran a half marathon yesterday I ran the Fairfield half marathon. Yeah. It wasn't my first half marathon but was my first time during the Fairfield one. It was really fun. Two more questions for you. They're not long. What are you excited about?Bob Shea 48:43What am I excited about? Me personally? In the world? Because nothingHannah Choi 48:52Okay, personally? Yeah, I know the world is awful, right? PersonallyBob Shea 48:59I'm excited about my son's graduating high school, he's gonna go to college in the fall. I'm pretty excited about that. I'm, I'm doing I'm - because I do one thing at a time now. I'm doing some I have some good projects at the makerspace that I'm excited about. I'm excited, just even about running and riding my bike. I'm so excited that it's nice outside. It's all very simple things that I do. And I write down gratitude stuff at the end of the day. And it's always the same thing. It's always like my wife, something delicious, and out and my bicycle.Hannah Choi 49:35I have been keeping a gratitude journal for - I'm in my fifth year now. It has, I have to say like I think that has made one of the biggest impacts on my life. Bob Shea 49:39For real? Hannah Choi 49:39Oh, yeah. It's amazing Bob Shea 49:42Do you do it in the evening or in the morning to start your day and set your intention kind of thing.Hannah Choi 49:54Yeah, that's a great question. I do it in the evening and I also sometimes end up doing it in the morning for the previous day, because I forgot to do it. But what I have found, it has helped me so much with negative thinking. And, and I find myself throughout the day going, Oh, that's something I can write about. I automatically think that way now. And it also at the end of if I have like a particularly hard day, it forces me to look back on it in and look for the even if I can be grateful for the challenge of that hard day. I made it through or, or whatever, like my kids made me happy or, you know, something.Bob Shea 50:43This day is over. I'm grateful. Yeah.Hannah Choi 50:47During the pandemic, I often just wrote, "I'm just glad this day is over". Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. So that's been a huge thing for me. So I'm glad you're doing it too. Yeah.Bob Shea 50:58That's good. I'll start to - I'm not mindful of things during the day. To to jot down that's a great idea. That's good. That brings it into the whole day.Hannah Choi 51:08Yeah, yeah, it's been really nice. And it's cool too, because the one that I use as a line a day journal, so it's actually got five years on each day. So I can look back on that, that day from the previous and so I'm in my fifth year now. So I can look back on on all of them before and it's really interesting to see that I do tend to be thankful for a lot of the same stuff. And so that makes me feel really good. Like, Oh, those are those are things that I should be doing. Like I do kickboxing, and I'm very often thankful for kickboxing. And, sadly, the place where we do it at is closing. But umBob Shea 51:43Oh, really? Hannah Choi 51:44Yeah. It's a real bummer. But it's it is it's really nice to look back on that. And just, it's like evidence. I just I love looking for evidence. And there's a lot of evidence in that book.Bob Shea 51:56Yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 51:59All right, one more question. How do people find you even though you're not too much on social media?Bob Shea 52:05On social media, on Instagram, I'm Bob Shea books. And then I do have Bobshea.com. That's my books website. But those are really the two main places the main thing is is Instagram, @BobsheabooksHannah Choi 52:22and on your local children's library bookshelves.Bob Shea 52:25Oh, yeah, exactly. Wherever, from your local independent bookseller. Yeah, just go in and go in and demand my books. And if they don't carry them there, they usually have a display in the center of the store, like new releases or whatever. If they don't have it, just flip that over. Flip it over, run out.Hannah Choi 52:45Well, that's that's how we found you, my kids. When my kids were little, we can't remember how we maybe they had one of your books up on like the, like the top, they put like one of the books up on the top?Bob Shea 52:56And oh, okay. Yeah, good I hope so.Hannah Choi 52:58So every time we found out you had a new book, we are super excited. So thank you for being a part of my children's childhood.Bob Shea 53:04Oh, sure. Thank you.Hannah Choi 53:08All right. Well, thanks again, Bob. This is great. It's really interesting to hear different people's perspectives. And and I'm so glad that you found strategies that are working for you. And I wish you luck on figuring out long term strategy planning, I think that I was thinking about it, like, just the fact that you're very good at doing your daily stuff is probably why you ended up with only being two weeks late and not three months, like, Yeah, I think that daily practice, probably just made you more aware of time and just made you more productive at, you know, the only thing I was, I was wondering, do you work backwards? Like, do you ever do start at the finish? And then figure out like, Okay, well, I know that they want it, like this amount of time ahead of time. And then and then okay, that means it takes me usually takes me about five days to do whatever and then schedule that there. And then it's like, all of that, all of that time blindness that you're conquering, can be so useful, right? Because, you know, you know how long things take now. So then it makes it easier when you're working backwards to budget in time. So yes, yeah, I think take now,Bob Shea 54:25I would I, I know I should. I should do it that way. In fact, I used to use Gantt charts, you know, again, you know those things. So again, a Gantt chart. I, this is my pre ADHD like, I was so obsessed with them. Like I gotta come up with a way that I can do this. Basically, it's a timeline, and then you hang like a string that moves along with for every day. But on that chart, you have the different things that you're different tasks that have to get done, so you can see where you are and whatever tasks and then So But what ends up happening is you just keep moving the task, like the Gantt chart is, so that is a quick visual, like, if you have five things going on where you are and all those five things.Hannah Choi 55:10Yeah, that's cool.Bob Shea 55:12Yeah, no, yeah.Hannah Choi 55:14I recommend looking at how long things take you and trying to, trying to figure out and adding in buffer time and adding in time for all those variables that we can't predict.Bob Shea 55:28I do. I try to add 50% more than my guess. And I'm getting better at it, but not still can't do like I'm never spot on.Hannah Choi 55:40Have you ever read Atomic Habits by James Clear?Bob Shea 55:43I did. I did. That's where I got the sit down and meditate as soon as you come in.Hannah Choi 55:47Yeah. Habits stacking. Yeah, I was meant to. I meant to mention that earlier when you were talking about that. But I like his idea of just 1% better. It obviously adds up over time, like you have you have proof. You have proof that a little bit better does add up over time.Bob Shea 56:05Yeah. And then the other the other thing I do in the book with the boxes, the next day, I look at how I did the day before. And I go Yeah, you know, you kind of were messing around too much at this time. And you know, you went for that walk was longer than you thought. So then that day, I can be like, Yeah, that's what I say. I'm like, I'm going to be a little bit better today than I was yesterday.Hannah Choi 56:27Yeah, that's so great. Oh, you're like a dream client. Oh my gosh.Bob Shea 56:31I'm too introspective. Hannah Choi 56:34Nah. No such thing. Well, thanks so much, Bob. This has been great.Bob Shea 56:39Thank you. That was fun.Hannah Choi 56:43And that's our show for today. I really hope that you had a chuckle and learn something useful from Bob. Or maybe you could just really relate to his story. More and more adults are being diagnosed with ADHD, so this feels like a really relatable and important story to share. Check out the show notes for a link to see some of Bob's time management strategies. And thank you for being here and taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics we're covering in each episode of Focus Forward, please share it with your friends, and be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyondbooksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and you can easily find the resources we share on each topic. Thanks for listening

In today’s episode, we’re looking at another set of helpful skills - especially for teens and young adults - and those are coping skills. The transition to college or work from high school has its own special set of challenges and practicing some coping skills can really help feel more successful during this time. The executive function skill of emotional regulation, which is also called self-regulation, plays a really big part in coping with challenging situations. Emotional regulation is all about recognizing, managing, and responding to our emotions. I think this is one of the most challenging EF skills for us to learn and also one of the most important because it directly affects all areas of our lives. From the moment we wake up until we fall asleep, emotions influence our…well, everything! And learning to develop our emotional regulation from a young age will have a hugely positive impact on our lives.To learn more about emotional regulation and what coping skills might be particularly useful to teens and young adults, I invited Jackie Wolfman, a therapist in the Boston area, to join me for a conversation about this. Jackie teaches these coping skills to her clients through DBT, which stands for dialectical behavior therapy. I know, it’s a mouthful and also something you may not have heard of before. I myself had only seen the acronym but had no idea what it was, so I had to do a little research before my conversation with Jackie. DBT is related to CBT which you may have heard of before. If you haven’t, CBT stands for cognitive behavior therapy. In this type of therapy, you learn to recognize negative or unhelpful thought patterns and then challenge them and change them through certain actions, such as facing your fears and increasing your awareness of your behaviors. I’ll let Jackie explain more about DBT and how emotional regulation strategies used in this type of therapy are so effective for teaching teens and young adults these coping skills.Here are some helpful resources from our conversation:DBT® Skills Training Handouts and Worksheets, Second Edition, by Marsha LinehanAnd Then They Stopped Talking to Me: Making Sense of Middle School by Judith WarnerVillage Psychology - Jackie Wolfman’s practiceWhat Is Dialectical Behavior Therapy for Adolescents - The YouTube video I watched to learn more about DBT before I talked with JackieTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. In the last episode, I spoke with Nadine Briggs about the connection between social skills and EF skills. We talked about different strategies and tools that kids and parents can use to develop these skills. In today's episode, we're looking at another set of skills that are helpful for kids, especially teens and young adults. And those are coping skills. The transition to college or work from high school has its own special set of challenges and practicing some coping skills can really help feel more successful during this time. The executive functions skill of emotional regulation, which is also called self-regulation plays a really big part in coping with challenging situations. Emotional regulation is all about recognizing, managing and then appropriately responding to our emotions. I think that this is one of the most challenging EF skills for us to learn. And it's also one of the most important because it directly affects all areas of our lives. From the moment we wake up until we fall asleep, emotions influence our...well, everything! And learning to develop our emotional regulation from a young age can have a hugely positive impact on our lives. To learn more about emotional regulation, and what coping skills might be particularly useful, I invited Jackie Wolfman, a therapist in the Boston area to join me for a conversation about this. Jackie teaches these coping skills to her clients through DBT, which stands for dialectical behavior therapy. I know it's a mouthful, and might also be something that you have not heard of before. I myself had only seen the acronym, but I had no idea what it was. So I had to do a little research before my conversation with Jackie, you can check out the show notes for the stuff that I found. DBT is related to CBT, which you may have heard of before. And if you haven't, CBT stands for cognitive behavior therapy. And in this type of therapy, you learn to recognize certain negative or unhelpful thought patterns, and then challenge them and change them through certain actions, such as facing your fears, and increasing your awareness of your behaviors. I'll let Jackie explain more about DBT and how emotional regulation strategies used in this type of therapy are so effective for teaching teens and young adults these coping skills. Okay, now on to the show. Hi, Jackie, thanks for joining me today. And there's your dog! (dog barking in background)Jackie Wolfman 02:57Right on cue! Thank you so much for having me. It's really a pleasure to be here to talk with you.Hannah Choi 03:03Yeah. Do you want to introduce yourself to our listeners a little bit?Jackie Wolfman 03:07Sure. So my name is Jackie Wolfman. I'm a clinical psychologist. And I've really focused my career on helping both college students and young adults in their early adulthood who might be struggling with anxiety, trauma, impulsivity, relationship difficulties, a whole host of things. And so, more recently, I founded a mental health private practice called Village Psychology that's dedicated to providing evidence based therapy groups, workshops and other programs to help college students and young adults really find relief from suffering and, you know, hopefully begin to create lives that they're truly excited about and really love. So, I spent 10 years in New York training and doing my education there. And then I moved to Boston about 10 years ago now, to do a postdoc in dialectical behavior therapy at McLean Hospital and Harvard Medical School. So that's where I got really the bulk of my DBT training, which I can talk about later. I'm certified, I'm a certified DBT clinician by the DBT Linehan Board of Certification. And I have a background in the arts. So I really like to think of myself as someone who tries to combine, you know, creativity and innovation and, you know, a strong grounding in science and evidence based practice to develop these programs, you know, to work with young people. Hannah Choi 04:42Oh, that's wonderful. I love that. Can you explain to our listeners what DBT is?Jackie Wolfman 04:45Absolutely. So DBT stands for dialectical behavior therapy. It is a form of CBT cognitive behavioral therapy that includes a focus on individual therapy, on-call skills coaching, and also skills training groups, so groups where people are learning to develop coping skills in different areas. Hannah Choi 05:12So dialectical, that's not a word that you hear every day. Can you tell me a little bit about what it means and why it might be important? Jackie Wolfman 05:19Sure. So it's definitely important, it's the name of the therapy. And a dialectic really refers to this idea that we can have two things that seem like opposites, and they can both be true at the same time. So some different examples could be I am tough, and I am gentle. Or I like school and I don't like school. Right? And so, dialectics is important for a lot of reasons. One is that it really helps us get away from all or nothing thinking. So all or nothing thinking is either, you know, something like, I got an A on this test, or I'm a total failure, right? That would be all or nothing, or either you're my best friend, or you're my enemy. Right. And so when we get stuck in these all or nothing types of thought patterns, dialectics dialectics can help us find balance and move out of that. So maybe instead of, you know, either I get an A, or I'm a failure, it's something like, you know, that test was really hard for me, and I'm going to study in a different way next time, or I'm disappointed with how that went. And I can ask for help to see what I can do differently, right. So helping us find that middle ground, so that we're not stuck in these all or nothing types of ways of seeing ourselves or other people or even the world.Hannah Choi 06:51Something that has just been trending for me lately is this idea of identity and who we are. And so I imagine dialectical thinking is helpful in, in figuring out who our identity is, and how I imagine, like, you can say, like, like I did poorly on that test, and I'm still a good student, or whatever.Jackie Wolfman 07:15Absolutely, yeah, It really can inform how you talk to yourself about yourself, right? And then how you view yourself, and what different things mean to you that I can see this as a, you know, I did poorly on the test, or I didn't study as much as I could have is a problem that can be solved, right, that can be addressed. And you can also hold in your mind, like you're saying this idea that I'm still a good student, right. And I'm still smart. And I'm still curious and passionate about what I care about. So it's not just one or the other.Hannah Choi 07:48Who's a good candidate for DBT? Jackie Wolfman 07:50Yeah, so people come to DBT, to work on a range of difficulties, it was initially developed to work with people who are really at high risk of hurting themselves and having difficulties in a number of different areas. And since it's been expanded to apply to many different types of problems. But I would say a common factor in terms of people who come to DBT treatment and really benefit from it, or is some sort of difficulty with regulating their emotions. So that might look like anxiety, depression, it could be rapid mood changes, it could be feeling num or empty, impulsive behaviors, or really any combination of those.Hannah Choi 08:34Would you say there's, like I hadn't, I hadn't really heard of it. I mean, I'd seen the acronym. And I know about CBT. But I hadn't really didn't, I had to do a little research to learn about it myself, you find that people are, is there? Is there more awareness about it now? And also, is there a stigma about it if it used to be used for people who are at risk of hurting themselves, but now it could be for anybody really?Jackie Wolfman 09:03Yeah, I think there is increasing awareness about dialectical behavior therapy, and certainly has, you know, been considered really the gold standard for people who do have high risk behaviors, whether that's, you know, suicidal thoughts or self harm or other types of risky behaviors. And so sometimes people do have that question - "Is this really for me?" because I don't fit into that category. And so I think it just requires more education to tell people yes, it might be, you know, let's look at what the what the therapy offers and what you're looking for help with. And, you know, see if this if this makes sense, because, like you said, I mean, these are skills that I think pretty much we all could use. I mean, I use them all the time and continue to practice them. So it's not necessarily for everyone, but it really can benefit a wide range of people I think. Hannah Choi 09:58Yeah. So if you are if you are listening and you don't feel like you fall into the category of that, there are still lots of, what I'm getting is there are still a lot of coping skills and strategies that you might learn in DBT that can help. So it sounds like DBT is from the research that the reading that I did about it, and I watched a YouTube video, which was really helpful as well. Yeah. It sounds like it's very holistic, like it, it includes the families, the person who's the person who is at the highest risk the and their families. And then I love how the skills groups are involved. And then also, the skills practice and how, how available, you as the therapist are to the person who's in therapy, so that they can make sure that they are completely supported when they're trying to learn these new coping skills. Jackie Wolfman 10:56Yeah, so the, I think your you know, part of what you're talking about is what we call skills coaching, where your individual, usually your individual therapist, sometimes it could be the group therapist, but your therapist is available to you in between sessions for short, coaching calls. And this is because it's really one thing to learn the skills in the group. And that's terrific, but it's a whole nother thing to be able to apply them in the moment that you need it. And so sometimes that's during a therapy session, but most of our lives, were not in our therapy sessions, that might be for one hour a week at most, potentially. And so that's what the skills coaching is for that you can contact your therapist, you can say, "This is the problem I'm having, these are the emotions I'm feeling. This is my goal. This is what I've already tried." Usually, your therapist prompts you to answer these questions, of course, and what what else can I do, you know, help me figure out how to use these skills now when I really need it. And I just find that that really goes such a long way in terms of people's ability to use it and start to use them eventually more independently. So they don't necessarily need to call their therapist, but at first, it really makes just a world of difference and being able to apply the skills in the time that that you really need it.Hannah Choi 12:09So I imagine developing a really strong trust between your client and your therapy, the client and the therapist is really important, so that they feel comfortable reaching out because they I mean, I imagine they might feel like they're interrupting you.Jackie Wolfman 12:23Absolutely. So some people will say that, you know, oh, you know, isn't it hard to be on-call because people are calling you all the time. And actually, what I find is exactly what you're saying that actually people don't want to interrupt my life. They don't want to bother me, they don't know if it's worth it or you know, things like that. And so really, I have to help people encourage them to, to reach out. And you're absolutely right, the relationship between the therapist and the client is the most important thing in terms of really any therapy being successful, I think, because that's the foundation upon which you can do all the other work. Hannah Choi 12:56Yeah, I mean, we find the same thing with with executive function skills coaching. And we also do the same thing - we check in with our clients during the week. And I always encourage my clients to reach out like if you're struggling and you are like not sure what to do in a situation where you're trying to, I don't know, plan for the week or something, reach out! But you're right, people don't do it very often. So hopefully, anyone's listening, I hope they reach out to their therapist or reach out to their coaches now.Jackie Wolfman 13:22That's one of the skills to learn in practice really, is to be able to ask for help. Hannah Choi 13:28Yeah, I mean, even Yeah, that's definitely something that I've been working on and, and doing this podcast has actually been part of that, you know, like, have, I've had to ask for a lot of help. I've had to ask people to explain things that I don't understand. And it's, it's a scary thing to put yourself out there. But you can learn so much and grow so much. Jackie Wolfman 13:49Oh, absolutely. Hannah Choi 13:50That's great. So you said you work, um you do group? Like group? What do you call them group? Is it group therapy or group sessions?Jackie Wolfman 14:03You know, I do call it group therapy, because it is group therapy. But I also explained to people that a DBT group is in a lot of ways a little a little bit more like a class than other types of group therapy. So we there's different types of group therapy. And that can be benefit beneficial in different ways, you know, for different people at different times. But these groups that would the DBT skills, training groups, it really does, in some ways feel a little bit more like a class because there is a workbook, there's a curriculum on teaching a different skill each week, there's homework practice. So it's not an open ended discussion group, although there are many opportunities to connect and share with other group members. But it's much more structured.Hannah Choi 14:45And so do you. You offer these groups for young adults, right?Jackie Wolfman 14:53Yes, so I never know what to call, you know what young adult means? Because to some people that's too In other words, it's older so. So I have I have groups that are specifically for college students, which tend to be traditional college age, maybe 18 to 22. Ish. And then I also have separate groups, which I do call the young adult groups, but those are ages typically 22 to 30. Ish. I have both.Hannah Choi 15:18Yeah. Oh, that's great. And so what if? And I imagine there's also DBT, for kids who are in high school?Jackie Wolfman 15:26Yeah, absolutely. And I've done that as well. Yeah.Hannah Choi 15:30So speaking of kids who are in high school, I have a client right now who is graduating, and he's going to be going to college in the fall. And so it makes me think about what kids can do to kind of get ready for, for being a grown up. And, and and the differences that they're going to encounter when they get to school, and they're going to be away from their regular environment. Do you, do you ever work with kids prior to college?Jackie Wolfman 16:01I do. And in fact, I'm working on developing a more specific program for sort of like the pre-college prep, but from the mental health and wellness perspective, and to help people kind of identify what are the skills that they need to learn in practice before starting college.Hannah Choi 16:25Yeah, so what are they? What should people work on?Jackie Wolfman 16:30Yeah. So there's four main categories of skills that we cover in DBT. And I think those map on really well to some of the skills that are needed for college. So the core skill is mindfulness. And one of my favorite quotes about mindfulness is that it sounds simple. And it is, but it's not easy. So when I'm talking about mindfulness, I'm really talking about two things, your ability to focus your mind where you want it to go. Instead of, you know, feeling like you have no control over that. And also increasing awareness, both of what's going on around you, but really, also what's happening internally, your own thoughts and your own feelings. And so a mindfulness practice can be again, super simple, like for the next 30 to 60 seconds, notice whatever sounds you notice, it's a very simple practice. And if we start to do that, usually what we notice is it's not easy, it's really hard, right? I start thinking about when I'm going to have for lunch or a conversation I had yesterday, or all the things on my to do list, right to just kind of bring myself to the moment and focus on those sounds. It takes a lot of practice. And so I think it has a lot of applications for everyone, but in particular for college students, because they have so much going on, to be able to focus where you need to focus is a real challenge. And being able to identify what you're feeling in the moment has so many benefits for being able to figure out what else you need. Hannah Choi 18:02Yeah, and what's so interesting, like, if you look at sort of the brain science behind mindfulness and awareness of how we are feeling is the executive function skill of metacognition, and like, how can you like, can you figure out what you're feeling? And can you figure out like, why you do what you do and why you don't do what you do? And so that seems, and it's also the last executive function skill to develop, and the trajectory of the development of that. And so that's interesting, because that's about the time when people start to get better at that. So that's good timing. If you think about it from like, a brain science side of it.Jackie Wolfman 18:42Yeah. And I think it's something we can continue to develop our whole lives.Hannah Choi 18:46Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, especially with how busy and pulled and how, in many directions people are being able to. Yeah, recognize how you're feeling and, and like you said, the attention piece of it is, so this can be so challenging when there's so much going on. Great. So what's the next the next core skill?Jackie Wolfman 19:10Yeah, so the next core core skill has to do with relationships. So in DBT, we call this interpersonal effectiveness. So really having strategies for maintaining relationships, while also being able to ask for what you need, whether that's asking for help, and saying no turning down a request and keeping your self respect. So being able to balance maintaining relationships with these two other factors of asking for what you need, and also saying no, are very important you can imagine for a college student.Hannah Choi 19:47Yeah. Wow. I hadn't thought about that, like asking you for what you need and also saying no, because in a way that's asking for what you need. Jackie Wolfman 19:56Yes, absolutely. So being able to identify and understand your own limits. And taking the risk to set them can be very hard to practice, especially we don't want to make people upset, or we're afraid people won't like us, or we just don't have practice doing that. But we've so many demands of college students, it can be really, really helpful to be able to say, You know what, I have all these things on my plate right now, I'm not going to take on this other thing, or to be able to say, you know, what, what you're asking you to do actually crosses my values. So I'm going to decline.Hannah Choi 20:32But you're saying reminds me of something I read in a book once? I think it was And Then They Stopped Talking to Me by Judith Warner. Oh, don't quote me on that. But anyway, if it is that book, she writes about how important it is for kids to check in with how they feel after they hang out with someone. Jackie Wolfman 20:52Yeah, I love that. Because I think so much of our focus can be on does the other person like me? How am I coming across, right? And we all might feel that way at times or a lot of the time. But they'd be able to kind of switch that narrative and ask, well, actually, how do I feel around this person? And is this someone I want to be spending time with? is really, really important to be able to, again, it's that mindfulness piece, I think of checking in with yourself and seeing how do I feel? What is my reaction? Hannah Choi 21:19Yeah, and checking in with you, and figuring that out, might give you the confidence that you need to say to the person No, I'm not comfortable doing this or asking for what you need. Great! So what's next? So excited? Jackie Wolfman 21:35Yeah. So next, we have emotion regulation. So emotion regulation has a lot to do with being able to identify emotions, and really understand what in the world they're doing there and what they're doing for you. So like, what is the function? What is the purpose? What good are emotions? So having some understanding of that, and then having some tools to change the emotion when that's your goal. So obviously, that's not always going to be the goal, there's often times where it's very useful to sit with your feelings, tolerate them experience them, but there are times where you do want to change the intensity of what you're feeling, or how long that it's lasting. And so this is also a very important skill for college students, when who might get very overwhelmed by exam week, or things going on socially, or, you know, conflict with family or whatever it might be dealing with a pandemic, right? There's just so many, so many things, affecting people every day. So having some tools to feel like, okay, you know, I'm feeling overwhelmed. And I know some things that I can do to bring the intensity down. It can also apply to feeling numb or empty, right? If someone's feeling that lack of feeling or experiencing a lack of feeling, what can I do to get myself back into experiencing my, my emotions?Hannah Choi 23:01What strategies are do people find most useful for both of those situations?Jackie Wolfman 23:06Yeah, well, there's a really cool strategy in DBT, called opposite action. And basically, what that means is you identify what you're feeling, the feeling that you want to change, you identify what is the action urge, meaning, what is this emotion telling me to do? Right? Am I feeling angry? And I feel like yelling and screaming, am I feeling sad, and I want to climb in bed and pull the covers up over my head? What is the urge, and then you identify the opposite. And then you do that. And you're like, wow, so if I want to reduce feeling sad in the moment, and my urges to, you know, pull the covers over my head, if my goal is to change the feeling. If the goal is not to change my feeling, then, you know, go to bed and pull the covers over my head, there's a time and a place for that. But if my goal is to change the feeling that I would do the opposite, I would get active, I would be around other people, right? I would go for a brisk walk something like that. And that can really change how you're feeling. Hannah Choi 24:06I love that. And, gosh, I wish I had learned all these things when I remember being in college. And I think a lot of these strategies would have been really helpful. Jackie Wolfman 24:15No, I think that all the time. It would have been really nice to have some of these tools.Hannah Choi 24:19Okay, and then that was three. So what's the fourth?Jackie Wolfman 24:23So the fourth is called distress tolerance. And what this means is having skills for crisis or just really challenging situations where you can't fix it, or at least you can't solve it right away. But you don't want to do something to make it worse, right? Like we've all been in that situation where it's a tough situation, challenging situation and then you know, I go ahead and do something that just makes it all worse for myself. And so these are kind of what you think of usually what comes to mind when you think of like traditional coping skills like maybe distraction, maybe self soothing yourself in the moment because you can't solve it in that moment. But you can prevent yourself from doing something impulsive or risky or just, you know, not helpful, that sometimes, you know, we have those urges and those difficult moments because we want to fix it, or we don't want to feel that way anymore. So these are tools that can really help us to get through and even do well, in the most challenging situations.Hannah Choi 25:24So for kids who are going off to college, or who are kids who are in college, or anybody, really any adults, if they're listening, if if you don't have access to DBT, and you but you want to benefit from some of the strategies that are used in DBT, are there resources or ways to access that information that that people can find?Jackie Wolfman 25:52 Yes, absolutely. So anyone can get the workbook it's, it's has both handouts that you can read through and then it has worksheets, so that gives you assignments, basically, of how to go and practice some of these skills. So and there's a lot of information online as well. And there are some free resources, I can send you some of that information, if you want to put it in the notes for people, but there's some nice resources for parents as well, to be able to get support around some of these skills so that they can kind of identify them and help their children to learn and practice them, as well.Hannah Choi 26:32And would you say there's like an optimal age to start this kind of stuff?Jackie Wolfman 26:38It's such an interesting question, because now there's DBT-C, which is for children. Right? So. So there's any age, I think, can benefit from these skills? I've certainly mostly, you know, most worked often with adolescents, you know, starting as young as 13, 14. On up, but I know there's lots of people doing good work with, with kids even younger.Hannah Choi 27:04So, what can parents do, like in addition to those resources, what can parents do to support their kids?Jackie Wolfman 27:12Yeah, absolutely. So the first thing parents can do is, well, there's three things that parents can do, there's probably more but I would say parents can model, they can validate, and they can reinforce. So in terms of modeling, what I mean is parents can learn and practice some of these skills themselves. Because that will demonstrate to their children how to how to use some of these skills. And children learn from watching what their parents do when they're feeling strong emotions or having a difficult time. So I think that's a huge benefit. If you're learning and practicing these skills yourself, your children will benefit from that. The second skill for parents that I think is really, really core, to supporting college student high school students, and then who be them become college students is to learn and practice validation. So often, when children are younger parents are major problem solvers, right? They come in, they help their kids, they solve their problems for them to a large degree. But as kids get older, parents have less of a role in terms of problem solving, which can be a hard transition for parents. But it's an important one as their children get older and get more independent are going to be solving more problems on their own or with the help of others. So validation, is still something that parents can do. So reflecting back the emotions, or experiences or perspective of their child, communicating how their emotions and experience makes sense, and really providing that kind of warm, compassionate ear. While doing that they can say, you know, would you like some suggestions? Would you like some help with this? And if they say yes, offer them, but I think a lot of parents have had the experience of trying to jump in and, and solve the problem with some merit, very, some maybe very good ideas, but then their child is like "Naw, won't work, that don't work that well, you know, I don't want your help". Right. So I think validation is really, really, really important.Hannah Choi 29:23That's a that's a like a when, when we're working with a client who's new to coaching. We always ask first, like, Would you like, Would you like some ideas for this? And I think yeah, if someone says no, then they're not going to be receptive to it. If they say yes, then they're going to be receptive. And but if you don't ask, you don't know what you're gonna get, and you might end up ruining the relationship. Well, you're not ruining it. Jackie Wolfman 29:50But yeah, it becomes more challenging. You want to you want to kind of have that collaboration, that you're working on something together.Hannah Choi 29:59And it's hard as pair aren't too, cuz of course, we just want to fix everything for our kids. But it's it's got, especially when they're older, that's got to be up to them to be a part of it if they're if... I imagine that it is more effective if the child is like, "Yes, I want your help."Jackie Wolfman 30:18Yeah, I think so. I mean, it makes so much sense. I mean, nobody wants to see their child suffering and in pain, and if there's something they can do to help solve it, you want to do it. And so sometimes I remind parents that validation is doing something, right? You're helping your child understand their experience, realize what makes sense about it. And then support them and figuring out what to do next.Hannah Choi 30:42What are some good questions that parents can ask in a situation where the child is really having a hard time? Jackie Wolfman 30:50Hmmm..."Tell me more about that." "It sounds like you're feeling blank. Is that right?" Right. So checking in with them. And I think, I think it's a good indication that you're being validating. If you get more information, right, if they're talking more, that's often a sign that they're feeling understood. So I think the simple questions are sometimes the most effective.Hannah Choi 31:21What you, one thing that you said, when you said, I think you're feeling this? Is that right? Reminds me of what previous guests of mine Sherry Fleydervish said, she said, "It's okay to be wrong. You know, it's okay to guess your child's feeling and be wrong". Because that can actually that can help them, figure it, help them figure out what they are feeling. And figuring out our feelings is a really big part of of that emotional regulation and awareness,Jackie Wolfman 31:49I completely agree, I can help them figure out what they're feeling. And also, it's the effort that matters, right? If I'm validating someone else, I don't have to get it right 100% of the time, but usually the other person, or at least when someone's validating me, I appreciate that they're trying. And if I say, you know, that's not quite it, and they say, Okay, it's all good, right? If they say, No, you are feeling what I think you're feeling, then it doesn't usually go that that great. But, you know, if you continue to roll with it, then then you know, I appreciate when someone's trying, they don't have to get it perfectly.Hannah Choi 32:23Yeah, so if you're the person who's validating someone else, you have to be okay with possibly being wrong. Exactly. Yeah. And then, and then allowing yourself to be wrong in that moment, and letting them tell you, hopefully, they'll tell you what they are feeling.Jackie Wolfman 32:37Exactly right. And then going with that. And even as a therapist, I do this, right. So I might, I might have missed the mark on something and then I and then I'll say, oh, okay, you know, help me understand what did I miss? And go from there?Hannah Choi 32:50Yeah, and it really helps them figure it out, I'm sure. Cool. And what's the third thing?Jackie Wolfman 32:57So, reinforce, so this means catching your child doing something effective, and pointing it out? Right. So in whatever way you think if you know your, you know, your child, they would respond to so noticing them using a skill, a coping skill, and maybe mentioning that, like I noticed, when you had an argument with your friend, you really took some time to think about what you were going to say before you texted them back back. And I you know, I really think that helped you communicate your point of view more clearly, right? Something like, you know, can be very simple. But to be able to notice them using a skill and then support that either by pointing it out by to being specific about what you think the benefit was. Maybe just gently noticing it, right? So anything like that, where you're you're focusing on drawing out those positive coping skills can be very supportive. Hannah Choi 33:54And that's very cool. So I imagine that in DBT, the parent portion of it is maybe bigger than in other in other types of therapy. Am I right?Jackie Wolfman 34:08Yes, especially with adolescents. So there are some DBT groups where you have adolescents in their own group and parents in their own group. And there are other groups where the adolescents and their parents are together and what we call multifamily groups. So you have multiple families in the same group, and everyone is learning and practicing the skills together. So it really reinforces this idea that this is not just for the student. This is also for the parents to be learning and practicing these skills as well and really working together. There also can be DBT parent guidance where parents or caregivers are meeting with a DBT therapists themselves to get help and coaching on how to use the skills with their children. So it does tend to be a big part of the treatment especially with younger folks.Hannah Choi 35:02And I imagine that if a if a child is at high risk than their parents are probably going to want to be involved. Jackie Wolfman 35:12Yes, yes. Yeah, it's absolutely important.Hannah Choi 35:17Yeah, we even see that in coaching kids, we have coaching coordinators, which are the family connection. So that the coach works with the client. And then the coaching coordinator works with the families and answers any questions that they have. And yeah, it's not like full on coaching sessions, but they're available to help, you know, parents understand the process of change, and you know, why their child might be resisting, or you know, just how the coach is approaching?Jackie Wolfman 35:48Yeah, that's so important, because I think how parents understand their child's behavior really informs how they respond to their child, and just having a different understanding of what might be going on might really make a big change. And I think I've seen a lot of parents really appreciate that to be able to, you know, be given some different perspective on what's going on.Hannah Choi 36:09Yeah, especially when you as the parent can't relate to the child's behaviors, their just approach to life. Like if you're really different from them, yeah, it's nice to have to feel like you're being supported as well. So you can really support your child. Jackie Wolfman 36:23Yeah, yeah, I see that a lot as well.Hannah Choi 36:26Great. So speaking of executive function, would you would you say do you see? I mean, we know the research shows that there is a connection between executive function skills challenges and Melton mental health. Do you see? How does that show up in your practice?Jackie Wolfman 36:45I see it in my practice, because I see people come to work with me, because they're having difficulty with their emotions, or trouble in relationships, or other types of behaviors that they want to work on, that have been getting in their way. And then it comes to light, but they may also have ADHD, or that they're having a hard time organizing themselves. And that's part of what's maybe increasing their anxiety about their classes, or, you know, being able to maintain an internship. And so there's just and there's also a lot of overlap, I think, between things that you can see with executive functioning difficulties and some different mental health diagnoses. So you know, difficulty focusing cognitive difficulties, impulsivity. And so some of the skills that were initially maybe developed to help people with their moods or their emotions can also really help people who are having these types of executive functioning difficulties too, because a lot of the there's just so much overlap there. But I think the emphasis that we have in DBT on emotions can be very helpful, because when emotions are high, we all know, it's much more difficult to think clearly. And we think very differently, emotions are lower. And so having those tools to reduce the intensity of what you're feeling, understand it not feel like you're crazy for having these reactions can then help you think more clearly, and, you know, execute some of those skills much more effectively than when emotions are high and running the show.Hannah Choi 38:27I just, I just recently sat down with Peg Dawson, the author of Smart but Scattered and, yeah, it was great. And she and she said something in her book, which really, really resonated with me and, and she said it, once you know the executive function skills, areas that you struggle with, if you notice that you are really struggling with them, and those things are really giving you a hard time, it's, it's a sign that you need to stop and pay attention to what's going on. And maybe you have too much on your plate, or maybe there's like a larger thing that needs to be addressed. And I just loved that, that advice and I use it for myself all the time. Like I have a terrible memory as the listeners now I've talked about this before and I noticed when I'm when I'm extra forgetful, I know that it means that I just have too much going on and I need to do something I need to do something needs to change.Jackie Wolfman 39:22I love that this idea that that it's telling you something important that you need to pay attention to. And I think emotions act in a similar way, right? Like what is this emotion telling me what is what is? What is it signaling to me about myself or the situation that I'm in? And then we know that can help figure out what to do from there. Hannah Choi 39:42Yeah, there's so much so much evidence and information and in our behaviors and are, how we feel. Yeah, I love it. I really approach my coaching that way. Like I love to ask "why?", like, let's really ask why. And you can ask why and get one answer and then you can ask why again for the whatever answer that was, and then you kind of really get down to the, the base of it. Like what's really, really, really going on? It reminds me of my parents used to call me the "why bird" when I was little because I asked why all the time? Practicing. Practicing for now. Jackie Wolfman 40:19Yeah, being curious. Hannah Choi 40:20Yeah, being curious is so it's such a, it can be a difficult thing to do because sometimes you don't like the answer you come up with. But it's so informative and just can really change your life. Yeah. So yeah. So you have anything else that you want to share, anything else that you think our listeners would, would benefit from?Jackie Wolfman 40:46I think one thing is that if you're going to be starting practicing some of these skills, to start with what feels easiest, start with something that you're drawn to. It doesn't have to be the biggest, most difficult thing that you can tackle at first. And like we said earlier, it's okay to make mistakes. And it's not always going to be easy. So I think, you know, that's something that's important to communicate. And, and really, just to having that respect for your own emotions and feelings and noticing if you're someone who judges yourself a lot for how you feel that that is also going to be an important thing to work on to really try to get back to that validation. Even that self validation of what is this I'm feeling and how does it actually make sense? Even when I feel like I don't like?Hannah Choi 41:37Yeah, it was it Walt Whitman, who said, Be curious, without judgment or something like, I'm sure whoever it was much more eloquent than that. But yeah, that's great. That's great advice. I guess, if you're just trying to change, do anything new, it's good to start with something that is small and feels like something that you're interested in that I don't think any change has ever been made by chewing, biting off the biggest piece and, and trying to make it happen. Yeah. All in all at once. That's great. And do you have anything going on that you're excited about?Jackie Wolfman 42:14I do. So next summer, we're going to be starting the pre-college, mental health prep. And then also coming up this fall, in addition to the DBT groups, I'm developing groups for those same age group range, so the college students and then the young adults up to age 30, groups for anxiety, and then a group for trauma. So I'm really excited to add those groups to what we're doing. Because I really believe in group therapy. And that experience is being so helpful for people and just really adding that extra support, in addition to you know, maybe their individual therapy that they have every week. Hannah Choi 42:54Have you noticed any change? I mean, you've been you've been in the business for a while now, have you noticed any change over the years with people's openness to therapy and talking about therapy?Jackie Wolfman 43:07I have, I think people have become more open to talking about therapy and willing to share that they're in therapy with other people. And I think even you know, maybe in part because of the pandemic, and how pervasive the difficulties with isolation have been for so many of us that it's it feels a little bit less stigmatized to ask for help around these things, because we just see so many people around us struggling in different ways. So, you know, it's it's possible that that has been helpful in that sense in terms of maybe reducing some stigma around it.Hannah Choi 43:48Have, do you notice a difference in the kids who are in your groups today post pandemic as compared to the kids that were in your groups before?Jackie Wolfman 43:57I think I think that just the real emphasis on feeling isolated, or feeling like things aren't going according to plan. Because they're not that you know, none of us expected this or planned for this or wanted this. So those are kinds of the themes that come up now that weren't as, that did come up before but weren't as strong before, that there was sort of this expectation of go to college I would spend a certain amount of time there. I would have my full senior year. I get to be with my friends right. And now there's just a such a uncertainty about the present and the future that is really hard to manage.Hannah Choi 44:40I was just want thinking like I wonder if maybe it maybe you've noticed this but I wonder if there's so this going through the pandemic is this collective shared experience that we've all had, and it is a form of trauma, right? Because it's like this small repeated exposure to difficult things over and over and over. And and I wonder if groups, people within groups therapy groups feel closer than they did before the pandemic? Because everyone's gone through the shared experience. I mean, I don't know if there's any way to measure that. But would you say?Jackie Wolfman 45:16I don't know. But anecdotally, I would agree, because I think it can be very validating to be in a space with people who have gone through similar things, which is what I hear a lot about the college groups that people really like, being in a group with other college students because of that shared experience. And because you're seeing that you're not alone with some of the things that you're struggling with. And if there's other people who are similar to you, in some ways, who might also be struggling. And so I think having that shared experience can be very validating, and comforting. And I do see people more seeking out groups, because they're looking for that connection with other people. Hannah Choi 45:54Yeah, right, right. And how wonderful is that they get the they get the social connection, and they get the side benefit of, or the side benefit of the social connection and the skills, the skills that they're learning with them. 46:05Yeah, I think they're equally important, I really do being able to connect with other people and, and differentiate, you know, where we're different and where we're similar and have those types of conversations. There's not always a ton of spaces where we can do that. So it's really fun, actually, to be able to provide that. Because it's very helpful and supportive and exciting when you see people using skills. And then it's not just me as a therapist who's encouraging them. But you they start to encourage each other and rely on each other for, you know, being more skillful using more of these tools. And it's just, it's really fun to see that develop.Hannah Choi 46:42And Jackie, can you share with our listeners where they can find you and more about your work?Jackie Wolfman 46:48Absolutely. So they can go to the Village Psychology website, which is villagepsych.com. So it's village p-s-y-c-h.com. And you'll find a lot of more information about the groups that we offer, my background and also ways to get in touch. Hannah Choi 47:05All right. Well, thanks so much, Jackie. I'm so glad you were here today. And you shared everything with us. This has been really, really fascinating and really interesting. I'd love to have you back to talk about more.Jackie Wolfman 47:16Thanks so much for having me. I'd love to come back.Hannah Choi 47:20And that's our show for today. I really hope that you found something useful in my conversation with Jackie, thank you so much for being here and taking time out of your day to listen. Jackie is about to have her first baby so we send her all the best wishes from Beyond BookSmart. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics we're covering in each episode of Focus Forward, please share our podcasts and be sure to check out the show notes for this episode on our website. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and you can easily find the resources we share on each topic. Thanks for listening

Something we've wanted to explore more deeply on the show is how much of an impact Executive Function skills can have on our social lives. All of those EF challenges that can make aspects of school or home life hard can also really affect how easily we can make friends and our ability to maintain those friendships. To learn more, I sat down with Nadine Briggs - a social skills expert. CEO of Simply Social Kids, and mother of an adult son with ADHD. Nadine joined me to talk about how social skills and executive function skills are connected and how working on them can make a huge difference in our happiness and ability to function in the world. We also dive into the importance of building resilience and explore some practical strategies to develop a mindset that allows us to overcome the inevitable challenges and roadblocks we face in life.Related ResourcesSimply Social Kids - Nadine’s social skills company websiteYour Kids Can Achieve Social Success this Summer (With Your Help)!ConversationHQ - Conversation starter resourceResilience Training: How to Master Mental Toughness and ThriveThe Social Executive Function Skills That Elude Kids with ADHDTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Something I find very interesting is how interconnected these EF skills are with every single aspect of our lives. We feel their effects at school, at work and at home. If we struggle with organization, our backpacks or kitchen counters might be classified as disaster zones. If our working memory is not strong, we may forget that we have a quiz today or forget to go to the grocery store after we go to the gym. If cognitive flexibility is difficult for us, coming up with an essay topic or figuring out a different way to get to work when the car won't start might feel impossible. And what we mostly read about and hear about is how these EF skill challenges affect our academic performance or affect how we work or manage our homes and families. And something that I wanted to explore more deeply is how much of an impact executive function skills can have on our social lives. All of these EF challenges that can make aspects of school or home life hard, can also really affect how easily we can make friends and our ability to maintain those friendships. To learn more, I sat down with Nadine Briggs, who is a social skills expert, and also a mom of an adult son with ADHD. Nadine joins me to talk about exactly this, how social skills and executive function skills are connected, and how working on them can make a huge difference in our happiness and our ability to function in the world. Life is short, and it can be a lot more fun with friends. So taking the time to do a little bit here and there to improve our social skills through working on our executive function skills can make a huge difference. Hmm, okay, well, this is easy for me to say as an extrovert. You might be listening to me and rolling your eyes thinking No thanks. I'll just stay at home and snuggle with my Netflix. But hear me out because you introverts might have a partner or kids who have more social needs than you. And this episode is packed full of really useful tips and strategies to help both ourselves and our kids, find more meaningful interactions with people and hopefully make and maintain friendships that enrich our lives. Okay, so onto the show. Hi, Nadine, thanks so much for joining me today.Nadine Briggs 02:43Thanks for having me.Hannah Choi 02:45Would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners?Nadine Briggs 02:48Sure. I'm Nadine Griggs, I'm CEO of Simply Social Kids. And we have a social skills program where we work with ages eight to 28. And we have our in-person groups that are in Tyngsboro, Massachusetts, but we also have an online program for people who are not in our local area. We run weekly social skills groups to help them to make friend connections and just learn how to be more social.Hannah Choi 03:09That's great. So I guess through the lens that I'm always looking through is executive function skills, and maybe you know, kids with ADHD, anxiety, high functioning autism, how are those kids empower the social skills of those kids impacted?Nadine Briggs 03:29That's exactly who we work with - kids with high functioning autism, ADHD, anxiety, or just general awkwardness. They might not have a diagnosis at all, they just can't quite make friends. And they do struggle a lot. Because a lot of times, they're not able to really figure out how to initiate a social interaction, or they don't know how to get together with people like they want to hang out. And I usually and we'll talk mostly about teenagers today, I think in terms of that's, that's kind of the population that is struggling a lot with this. Because they're, they're no longer relying on their parents to schedule their playdates for them. And so it's really hard. They, they need the help, but they don't really know how to get that help. And they don't know how to initiate. So what often happens with teenagers is they're just alone. And they and they don't know how to get get out of their own way in that, in that sense. They don't know how to schedule time with other people. And some of the parents I've talked to more recently, we've had conversations about how they think that their kids are okay alone. And that's actually not true at all. They're not okay alone. They're really lonely. They just don't know how to initiate getting together with people. Or they might do it and it's a little bit awkward, or they don't have anybody they even know what a call or they're anxious about calling people. You know, a lot of times kids will say to me, he'll say, you know, what do you do over the weekend, they'll say, oh, I didn't do anything. And then they'll say, you know, nobody ever calls me to do anything with them. And I'll always ask them, Well, how many people did you call to do something with and when I flip that script, they always say no one because they just don't know how to really organize that and get that going for them and, and reach out to people. And they, a lot of it is their, their memory like they don't think about it, they forget, if I say, you know, a lot of times I'll write on the on the whiteboard at my center, I'll write up "text somebody on the drive home today". So it's fresh in their minds, or you know, is they don't think about it, and they then they get upset that they don't have anything going on. So it's kind of this lack of, of action that they they struggle with. So that's a huge piece.Hannah Choi 05:29Something that you said earlier, makes makes me think about, like you said, so up until the teenage years, or maybe tweens, parents have been the people that have helped them set up playdates and purely just because kids don't have little kids don't have phones, they don't have ways to, you know, to connect with their friends. So they need to use their parents, how can we - What are some things that we can do as parents to help kids shift from a from us, arranging those playdates to them, arranging them?Nadine Briggs 06:03This is where smartphones are really helpful for that, you know, one of the things that we suggest to parents a lot is just to create, like a social plan for your kid with your kid, I should say, not for your kid, because when you create a social plan, basically you sit down with your your teen and you say, How often would you like to see people? You know, you might have a kid on the spectrum who's fine with once a month or you know, a couple times a month might be fine. Or maybe when they do get together? It's a shorter amount of time than somebody who didn't have that diagnosis, they get they do get some social fatigue sometimes. So maybe it's a couple hours, rather than a four hour thing? Is it just how often should they get together? And then figure out okay, well, let's let's put something kind of in our minds or on the calendar of every other Friday or every other weekend, we're going to try to do something with people. See, you have that structure of in a month, this is how often I'm going to see people or, or maybe look at the clubs that are offered at their middle schools and high schools and say, Oh, how many of these do you think we should sign up for? And then kind of get again, getting those things on the calendar? You know, I think that's really important to figure that part out, well, how much socialization do we need? And then thinking about it? Who would I socialize with, who's who's kind of my shortlist of people, a lot of times, I'll take a, you just do like a circle within a circle within a circle kind of a diagram. With kids I work with, it's okay, who's in that inner inner circle? Who is in that next circle out that maybe you want to bring into your Inner Inner Circle and kind of create that list of people. So you have a focus of, I'm going to focus on this one to three people rather than, you know, 12 people here to give it something a little bit more manageable for them to focus on those people? And then figure out well, what do they like to do? You know, how do we get together with them? Where do I see them most often? Am I on a sports team with them? Are they in my class? You know, are they in scouts with me, you know, what, where do I see this person, and then start to figure out how you can spend time with that person and share like interest with them. So kind of chunking it down into smaller pieces, just like you would do with academic stuff, or executive functioning right and make it feel more manageable. If it's if it's too much, if you're trying to be friends with like everybody at the lunch table, rather than just the people on either side of you, that's when that anxiety can kick in. And once that happens, then they start to act out a little bit, they might either they might shut down. Or they might get overly silly, he might want to try to be really funny and humorous, and really show off he kind of thing. And when that happens, that puts people off too. And so when that starts to kick in, we get all sorts of things happen. And so we're trying to keep them them calm and just, you know, think about it more in a more organized fashion. And they just to be more deliberate in those ways, I think, yeah, right.Hannah Choi 08:53I had never really thought about that. Like, this is sounds silly. Again, it's switching gears a little bit to adults, but like my husband and I have very opposite social demands, needs. Like I'm very social, and he prefers to not socialize as much. And so I love that idea of sitting down and kind of breaking down like, well, this is what I need. And this is how I can reach that. And this is what you need and how you can reach that. So I imagine with within families that, that that does happen a lot, but between kids and parents and between siblings as well. So maybe everyone sitting down and doing a social plan and seeing how the family plans can fulfill that need for some people. And and maybe family plans won't fulfill that need for one of the kids and they need to have additional, like additional social interaction with friends or I meanNadine Briggs 09:46you bring up a great point too, because a lot of the the apples don't fall too far from the tree sometimes. And so you might have parents who are really not that social. In here you have a kid who's not that social and they don't have any more of an idea how to help their child with socialization because they're not particularly social people. And that's where it you know, obviously having a social skills coach and getting some outside help can really be beneficial because they don't know how, and they don't know what's getting in their way.Hannah Choi 10:12Right? That's so interesting. Yeah. And so if their parents aren't comfortable with it themselves, and they're not going to be, it's going to be difficult for them to helpNadine Briggs 10:22Their kids don't have that role model. They don't if their parents don't have friends over for barbecues and things on the weekend, they're not seeing that, how that should look Yeah. So they're not really getting that in the home. Right. So they may be getting that at school. It depends who they're hanging out with at school, if that's a good role model, and maybe not a good role model.Hannah Choi 10:42Yeah, that's so interesting. I was just talking with my niece the other day, and we were asking her, and she doesn't have any siblings, and we're asking her how she felt about school ending. And she said that she was glad it was ending, because you know, it's tiring, school is tiring. She's in fifth grade. But then she said, but I'm going to be lonely, because I'm not going to be able to be with my friends all the time. And so and, and her mom is not she is a social person, but she's not super social. So I, I imagine that, that it's, yeah, I don't know, I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say here. Nadine Briggs 11:19It still might be a little bit on her to kind of say, Yeah, I'd like to meet some friends at the park or go to a, you know, an amusement park or mini golf. And, you know, in all those things in the summer, which are great ways to get together with people. But yeah, it is, it's very difficult if the parent isn't that social. And like I always suggest to parents to kind of think about where you might go, and then invite a bunch of people to join you at that date and time. And you might go and no one shows or you might go and maybe a few people come a park or something just saying we're going to be there's a park called Friendship Park near us and thinking about friendship. So it comes to my Friendship Park, you know, three o'clock on Saturday, you know, who wants to come and you hope you other kids will be there. But then you don't really have that pressure of, I've asked this one person and me. So they could just show up at the same time. I used to do that a lot with my kids when they were little, like so we're all going to go to the movies at this time on this day. Who wants to come with us? You know, we're going to be in this we're going to be in this row. That was before you had to really Yeah, exactly. No know, but then that we would just other people like, yeah, we'll meet you there, you know, and it would took a little bit of the pressure off of, you know, inviting those individual person and then having them reject you.Hannah Choi 12:35Yeah, right. I love that. And I love what you what you said about how you can use like the same skills that you use to break down academics into smaller chunks, you can apply that to social skills. So what are some other ways that kids can work on, maybe not work on their executive function skills, but use their emerging executive function skills to support their social skill development? Nadine Briggs 13:01You know, one of the big issues is the the memory challenge. A lot of these guys don't have great memory. And, and that's a problem because you think about when you socialize with somebody, let's say you're gonna go to, you're gonna go to the market, you're gonna bump into somebody you haven't seen in several months. Right away, you're gonna go, your mind is gonna go okay, what do I know about this person? What I know about their life? What is the last time I saw them? What was going on with them? And you're filtering that out? Geez, what was the thing that I just last knew about them? And you might have maybe their kids studied abroad, or you know, to ask, Oh, how was Italy or something, you'll remember those things. Kids who have that, that challenge. They don't necessarily remember those things about people. So they don't know how to find that information about that person, retrieve it, and come up with it. And so, a lot of times what we'll do, if that's a random example, that you're going to bump into somebody at the market, but if you're going to get together with somebody you haven't seen in a while, spend some time deliberately thinking about what you remember about that person. Give yourself that opportunity to say, All right, I'm gonna get together with Susie, what do I know about Susie? Susie just got a new puppy. You know, last time I saw her. Okay, well, let's ask about the puppy. Those types of things. So I think they need to think about some of that stuff before they go. And then sometimes even to, to prepare them for socializing. They can put a few little notes in their phone and the contact for that person likes Fortnight, you know, just got a puppy, whatever information they have about that person. Now they have to remember to put the note in the phones. So we can have that challenge. Yeah, that is a great way to have just a couple little things. I'm not gonna put a big dossier on the person your phone, there's a couple little things about them, and then even go through like a conversation starter website. There's one that we like called Conversation HQ. And I'll see the kids just scroll through the conversation starters on conversation HQ. And don't ask them verbatim and say "where do you where would you be five years from now?" or whatever it is, like, look through them and find one that is something you might actually say. Or maybe it triggers something that you can change it to something you'd actually say. So it's not that you're going to sit there. And you're basically, you know, interview the person with all these conversation starters, you're going to just kind of get ideas for what you might want to talk about. And then you use it in your own words, using your own language so that it's more natural for you. And it's something that you'd actually say, but you have those topics in your head. Right, like, like it, let's say they love nature. And we had a, I don't know, the meteor shower the other night, which it was cloudy where I was, and then we got to see it. And let's say that, you know, you've had that conversation with somebody, they also like space, right? You could say, "Hey, you happen to catch the meteor shower." "Oh, it was cloudy near me." Did you happen to see it? Or do you think there's life on other planets, you start to get in a conversation perhaps like that, if that's something you know, that they like, I wouldn't just randomly walk up to somebody, and say "Do you believe in life on other planets?" But if that's your thing, you just start so they go through and you might scroll, scroll through a lot of them before you have some that are something you like. And if you think you'll forget, put a couple little notes in your phone. And on the drive there, review some some of the notes that you have about that person to help spark those memories for them.Hannah Choi 16:17It reminds me of like test prep, right, like getting ready for tests, prior knowledge and like doing a little research. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. It actually reminds me, I remember my husband once. He was he said to me, oh, yeah, I was just thinking, we're getting together with so and so you know, tonight or whatever. And so he was he was trying to remember like, what sports teams that that person liked. And he was reading up on the articles about the those teams. Nadine Briggs 16:52Yeah, it helps. Because then you're, then you feel less anxious. And you might not end up even talking about sports. But that helps your anxiety. Yeah, kind of, you're in check. You feel more prepared that you've I mean, I believe because I'm a very social person, I'm a lot, My husband and I are a lot like you and your husband. I'm the social one. He said, "you just saw people, do you really need to see people again?"Hannah Choi 17:12Yes, yes, I do.Nadine Briggs 17:14You know, but I don't even do that. If I'm gonna go to a barbecue where maybe I only know the people hosting it. And I might know of the other people and seeing them in a while, or I know them, but I'm not really friends with them. And we're just more acquaintances, you know, I will do the same thing and start to think what do I know about that person? What is last time I saw them? What are some things I might be able to talk to that person about and prepare myself so that I don't feel uncomfortable going to a place where I don't really know that many people? So I think it's a pretty good strategy and for, for kids with executive functioning challenges, I think that it calms their anxiety and it prepares them with some topics, and they can even make some notes in their phone and just go to the bathroom and review. me look at my notes on some kids might do. It's I work with, you have to tell them to not necessarily, yeah, do it verbatim, or they write a little bit black and white in their thinking and a little bit literal. So you have to tell them, it just wouldn't just go to the bathroom and take a look at your notes in there. Don't do it in front of the person. Yeah, believe it or not, that's one of the things we need to do is just connect those dots that are obvious to other people aren't necessarily obvious to the people that we work with. So we have to say things that aren't normally said out loud, like things like that.Hannah Choi 18:25Right? Right. But how wonderful that you're teaching the kids that and because if they're if they don't have anyone in their life that either feels comfortable telling them that or it just doesn't, they just don't know what to tell them that then then that's, that's so great. And I'm sure that they feel comfortable with you telling them that because you've created a safe space and, and they're, you know, they're18:48That relationship with the kid is really important, because we are the ones if they tell a joke that's not funny, you know, we're not going to do the polite laugh. Yeah. And that's what most people will do is it's my job to not do the polite laugh. And to tell you why that feels funny, because most people will do that, especially if they're feeling uncomfortable. They, you know, the social norm is to just laugh a little bit and hope they stop talking about the thing that's, you know, that's creepy, or whatever the topic is that they're talking about. And, you know, it's, it's our job to say, that's not a great thing to talk about with your friends. And so you do have to have a good relationship with somebody before you can be that brutally honest with them. Yeah. Right. And, and then they know that what the role is to it, they know that all our goal is is to help them make those connections so they can have those deep, meaningful friendships and not be lonely anymore. Yeah. And so once they know that, and that's what our motivation is, and they take it really well. I mean, they're great about it, and they, they do apply it to their lives. Sometimes they need to be reminded because they do have difficulty sometimes taking it on themselves taking responsibility for what they do. And so a lot of times we'll preface it by saying, are you ready to take what I'm about to tell you and apply it to your own life? Sometimes if we just prime them with that, then you get that buy in Yes, I'm about to take what you say and apply it to my own life, then that then you they're ready to receive what you're saying and really take it in. In sometimes that's needed for some kids.Hannah Choi 20:17And we do that with coaching to write like you like, you always just have to meet someone where they are. And you have to find out like, like, are you ready for this? Is this Yeah? Is this something that like you said, are you ready to take it on? So how can so so your you know, your, the social skills work that you do with your clients happens, like, like, they take that with them home, and they practice it, practice it at home, I'm sure how can parents support their kids that are that might be socially awkward, and might need to be working on these skills.Nadine Briggs 20:51Yeah, they practice it in our program, too, which I think is a big piece of it, because we coach them in the moment. So we teach them and then they get to, they hang out with other people their age, that they practice it there. So for parents, you know, there's an education for a lot of them, if they're, if they're naturally social, they're probably already coaching their kids quite well, because they know how to be social. If they're not, though, and they tend to be a little bit awkward. Either leave it to the professionals, or, or study up on it, there's a lot of really great books, there's a lot of, you know, good podcasts, and there's different resources and, and take that on as something that they need to educate themselves on. And they might need to look at all the different types of things that we would coach on, like conversation skills, flexibility, you know, perspective taking, not trying to control what other people do. And that's a biggie, and all the different pieces that go into socialization and figure out what are the things that your their kids struggle with the most, and then study those things, and help them with those things. Because again, trying to tackle everything at once is really hard. Social skills is vast, there are so many different pieces to socialization. And we coach on social skills, but also resiliency. And that's a whole other big topic of that. But I think they need that as well, because they do get some level of rejection in their lives. And they need to be able to bounce back from that. But they have to study up on it, and then help them apply it to their own lives and even have them apply, have the parents become more social tooHannah Choi 22:15Yeah, it might even help and might help them might help the parents.Nadine Briggs 22:19It's funny. We have a parent support group that we run for people who are enrolled in our program, they're welcome to come on every week for an hour. And we've had people come on who make friends with other people, as parents, and I'd had I'd one day I had this dad come sit at my desk and the nicest funniest dad, he's such a great guy, I mean, of all the people you want to be friends with, and you'd want to go out and have a beer with this guy. He's just that person. And he sat at my desk. And he said, Nadine, I gotta tell you, I don't have any friends. Oh, and it broke my heart. Of all the people in my program of all the parents who would have friends, it would be this guy. It's like, I feel I feel jealous of my wife. She's got friends from college, and they go what every Friday night and, and I sit home and my kids a teenager, and he's, he's in his room. And he doesn't talk to me and sit there by myself. But you know, we talked about how he could get out and you join like, the Lions Club or Kiwanis, or get involved in community service and, and get himself out there to meet people and socialized you, which is also going to give you know more of a role model for his kid who needed that.Hannah Choi 23:26Hmm. So was he able to?23:28He did, he did, he actually became friends with another dad, in our program. So we had before the pandemic, we had a parent waiting room, where they were able to socialize. And that was good for the parents to make friends with each other. And actually, what used to happen then, too, is I would go back and I would tell them what we did in the group, the lesson that we taught to all of the parents and they would talk about it themselves. Now we have to write a summary because I'm not allowing as many people in the building, but they still they get the lessons that we do in person that we tell them what we did and what we coached on. So then they can carry that forward with their kids. And they're using the same language and all of that, because they have it all in a written report every week. Yeah.Hannah Choi 24:08So something you said earlier, it makes me realize, but it really is so clear how connected executive function skills are to social skills, like the perspective taking and cognitive flexibility and emotional regulation. Those are really, really tied together. So I guess, I guess when kids are practicing working on their social skills, they are going to naturally end up working on executive function skills. And do you think the reverse happens like when kids work specifically on executive function skills, maybe in school or with a coach like if they're in executive function coaching, do you think then it then has a positive impact on their social skills?Nadine Briggs 24:47I absolutely do because you think about just even just taking like tasks and initiation. One of the biggest struggles with the kids that I work with is just going over to somebody and starting a conversation, right? They don't know how to do that. And so they tend not to do that. And even getting together, like I said, you know, here comes summer with all this fun stuff to do, let's say they all want to go to like an amusement park, you know, being able to kind of figure out all the details around that, and get that off the ground. So they actually go and it actually happens, you know, they're, they're using all kinds of executive functioning skills for that. So some of the kids I work with, I actually have a, an event planner that I give them, it's like this one pager and it's like our parents involved, well, how much time is going to be needed? Who's going to drive? Who am I inviting? Here's the website, what do you do if there's rain? You know, is there a plan B, like all of these details, in an event planner, and again, I have to say to them, you use the event planner, with your parents, you don't tell your friends that used an event, right to figure out how to go to amusement park, yeah. But those things are really, really very helpful to them. Because those are the details that they have a lot of trouble with. They don't know how to do all of that and figure out a day at a time and especially when parents are involved, and you're going to have a big group that goes, all of those things are really difficult for them. But yes, I think they, they learn and as you know, as kids get older, and they do start to learn, and they practice those executive functioning skills. It gets better as they get older. Right? Yes. And I see that with my own son, he's 22. Now he's almost 23. And he has ADHD, and for sure, his executive functioning has gotten much, much better as a young man than it was certainly when he was a teenager in middle school. Right? Socially and academically,Hannah Choi 26:30Yeah, all of those, all of those more advanced executive function skills are really just starting to emerge, at the same time that kids are starting to crave that independence and wanting to be friends have friends and interact outside of their parents. So that's this kind of an interesting crossover time where they're craving that independence, but they're also not really consistent yet, with all of those executive functions,26:57Righ, and teenagers get can get very upset if parents try to help them with their executive functions. There's a thing about it that's very triggering,Hannah Choi 27:07Right? I was actually just going to say that what I love about that event planner is that it, it gets the parent out of it. So that, that we see this a lot like it actually, when I was in my conversation with Fran, we were talking about how, when you can get yourself out of an executive function or a social skills challenge, like friction, then it can help your relationship with your child, it also gives your kid such a great opportunity to really develop those things independently, and practice those skills independently. But the event planner worksheet has all the things that they really need to be considering to have a safe and fun experience. That and those are all the things that a parent would say, like don't forget this. Don't forget that. Don't forget that. But then the parent doesn't have to because the event planner, maybe the parent just has to remind this their kid to use the event planner, but they don't have to say like well, you know, what are all the details?Nadine Briggs 28:11Exactly? Yeah. And they're gonna forget them anyway, even if they did,Hannah Choi 28:14Right. It's gonna be written down. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, like I would love to work on that. You know, like use like I'm just thinking about like coaching like how how what an awesome activity to do in an executive function coaching session is to work on an event planning activity becauseNadine Briggs 28:35Yeah, the kids that work on that all their friends benefit greatly from that time because I'm putting together all these events I'm doing the apple picking and the go visit the castle. And you know, and there's one young woman that I work with, and like her friends had it made, they were doing all kinds of stuff. They were going to Boston and they were shopping and be-bopping around Faneuil Hall and it was because I'm like I'm on the other end, you know with that event planner, saying "mom dad can they do this you?" know and then the other friends are just getting invited. They're like this is great. They don't have to do anything!Hannah Choi 29:10I love that and then and then the child who's who's arranging it gets such satisfaction now just seeing all her friends having fun and and having like I made this happen I did this. someone who like I bet there's ton of a ton of opportunities for them to see evidence like to look back on - like a year ago, I I could not have done this and now when I'm going to Fanueil hall with my girlfriends.Nadine Briggs 29:37Well the thing about that too is those experiences are so important because those are the bonding things right like when you're I was talking to a family last night they live out in like the Chicago area and I'm working with their their teen. And it's like you know when you let's say you have an ice cream social at your house, right and you have you know, the chocolate and vanilla and all these different things. When the kids start throwing marshmallows at each other. They're, and they're belly laughing over like, what somebody's got hit me I and all those little things that happen when you when you create those moments, and that's that bonding stuff obviously "if you belly laugh with somebody, you're pretty much gonna be friends for life". Yes. Those experiences where you had a little food fight and it was harmless and maybe one you know, fell under something and we had an ant problem six months later and mom got all upset that was totally worth it. Teenagers love that stuff. So then they then they remember that or they see a marshmallow and go, "remember this?", you know, and then all of a sudden, they're all laughing again. So it's, that's the stuff that really bonds them in that meaningful way. Those types of things. And that's why it's so important to create those moments in or have them create the moments eventually, when they're old enough to do it, and have the executive function skills to do it. So that stuff happens for them. Because that's, that's the bonding stuff. That's what creates lifelong friendships. Right?Hannah Choi 30:56I love that. It reminds me of something that my sister was telling me that she heard about was like, there's like three types of fun, like, type one fun, which is, I don't know, I'm gonna get them wrong. But one of one of the funds is where you end up in like a flow state where you you'd like lose track of time, you don't notice the passage of time and your belly laughing and you're just like, totally in it and having so much fun. And I think that's probably where like, not inside jokes come from, but, you know, like, just share these like shared common experiences that that kids like, like you said, like they find a marshmallow and everyone burst out laughing. Just seeing a marshmallow. And from an outsider perspective, you're like, what's so funny about a marshmallow?Nadine Briggs 31:36Right, exactly. Yeah, that's the bonding stuff. Those are those are the those are the really precious moments.Hannah Choi 31:42Yeah. And so if you, if you if it's, if it's challenging for you to get into social to create those social opportunities for you, then you're not good, then you're going to miss out on that. So I love that what good work you're doing. It's so wonderful.Nadine Briggs 31:59It's so much fun. Yeah, it'sHannah Choi 32:01fun with the kids. So I have, like, I'm gonna disc kind of repeating myself, but I'm just thinking about as a coach for executive function skills, a lot of the work that our coaches do is on academics, because you know, that's what kids spend a lot of their time doing. But then when we move into the summer months, it's a great opportunity to work on other things. So like that event planner is a good idea. Do you have any other ideas that that kids could work on during the summer?Nadine Briggs 32:30I like things, like socializing, I like things that are out in the community, because you can go to the thing, and you can leave when you're ready to leave. When you're, when you're at someone's house, there's pressure to, you need to make sure you have enough that entertains that person and there's going to be a drop off and a pickup time, that's going to be set. And what if you're done and there's 45 minutes left of your time, that can feel awkward and uncomfortable. And so you don't want to have negative social experiences, you want to have positive social experiences. So like at my center, there's actually a ice cream stand that's one mile down the road. And I say to kids all the time, my team groups is like into their parents, like bring an extra five bucks, and go get an ice cream. At this place. It's a mile down the road. And I know there's kids who go every time every single week after group, they go with their parents. But that way you go you have an ice cream, you're there for half an hour, you socialize for a bit, or maybe you're there longer if you're having good conversation, it's up to you at that point, and you leave when you're ready to leave. That's great. So those it anytime that you're doing something that you're you have that as a conversation topic. So you're going to an amusement park, and you can talk about your favorite rides and things you like things you don't like, what are you going to get for lunch? What prizes Do you want to try to win? There's all these these points of conversation that you can have when you do that. Or if even if you go bowling or a mini golf or anything like that bumper boats, those types of things that are available in the summer, then then you can talk about the golfing, right. Oh, look at that shot. Oh, I can't believe I got in the water that time and you have those things to help them to connect and bond over. It's a lot harder. When you're just someone's at your house. And you're you'll have to have conversation with them the whole time. And you've got to find things that entertain them the whole time is a lot more pressure. Yeah, that's so interesting. If you for adults, you think about you go out with another couple and you sit there at dinner. Yeah, you have to talk topics for that whole time at dinner, right? So if you go out to dinner with somebody new, you might be a little anxious because you're like, oh gosh, what if we run out of stuff to say before the check comes?Hannah Choi 34:39Maybe just drinks?Nadine Briggs 34:41Exactly. For appsHannah Choi 34:45So in our basement, we when we refinished our basement and when the kids were little we were trying to decide what to do with the space. And and I said we're saying let's just leave it open and so we have like, like a Big beanbag, and we have swings that hang from the joists. And just like a lot of like gross motor fun things. And so when my, my friends have kids over, and I can tell they're like, it's kind of like, they're not really sure what to do, obviously go downstairs and play, you know, if they haven't already gone down. And it's fun to like, have just something to be silly with. So I imagine, you know, like going to the park or I don't know, like going for a walk or something where you're being physical is can kind of give you something to do with your body while you're trying to talk. 35:38Yeah, this air hockey table that is at our center is enormous. Because when we think about this awkward teenage boy, let's say he's 14 and he walks in. He's anxious, he's socially awkward. He doesn't know anybody. He doesn't know me. He doesn't know any of the staff. He doesn't know any of the kids and he walks into a room with like, 10 other kids. Wow. That's a that's an ask. Yeah, that's a big ask. So when they walk in, I mean, obviously, we're there to greet them and everything. But one of the things I love them to do is to start playing air hockey. That's because then you're actively engaged in a social, you know, item, basically your game. Yeah, but you don't really have to talk.Hannah Choi 36:12 Yeah. And it's one on one.Nadine Briggs 36:15One on one or two on two. Yeah. And you can talk about the shot, you can talk about a good shot, you know, we're almost got that one in. And then you already have that conversation starter right there. But you're engaged without just standing there awkwardly waiting for somebody to come talk to you. Yeah, you know, it's such a nice way to break in. Now. I do have to watch that table to make sure they don't stay at the table we can. There are some kids who will do that. And I have to say I need you to branch out from the table and go do something. I've tried something else. But yeah, we watch it. But it's a great way for them to start because they're again, they're busy, They're engaged. They're socializing, but they don't have to say too much yet.Hannah Choi 36:53That's great. So that makes that leads into a really good question that I have for you is, where do you start? Like if, like, where's a great place to start for someone who is struggling socially?Nadine Briggs 37:05Well, like I said, I would start with that plan, that social plan. And I would figure out what are what are their biggest hang ups for socialization is? Is it anxiety? Is it conversation skills? Is it that they don't have access to people that they would be friends with? Do you need to go join scouts or a youth group? Or you know, get yourself out there in some other way? So kind of narrow down? What is it we need? Do we need to work on anxiety? Do we conversation skills, do we need to find your people and they are way down that way and start start that way and the lowest lowest hanging fruit, you know, who is who are your people, and let's go find them and then start to ingratiate ourselves to those people, it kind of depends on the kid. There are some kids who who don't even realize even as teenagers, that they need to put themselves physically near someone else. Even in my center, I'll have a bunch of kids playing air hockey, and they're all watching the air hockey and one kid on the other side of the room. He doesn't necessarily understand that the signal you're giving is that you don't want to really be friends with people, when really it's your anxiety, just stand with everybody else. Put your body there and and be in that group, you know, those types of things. So that's where I would start is just to kind of break down? Where do we think the biggest issue is, and then if they need social coaching, and they need an intervention of some sort to seek that out, I think this summer, you know, we're, we're crazy busy this summer, I think because it is such a good time to get people kind of caught up, you know, from the pandemic, you know, a lot of people felt like they lost a couple years. And so this is an opportunity for them to just focus on the skills, and you know, things that they might not have been able to work on for the last couple and get ready for the next school year. You know, so if they're not able to do it, if the parent is kind of lost, and they don't know how to narrow down that list of friends and figure out where the problem spots are, and either study it up on their own, or get some outside help to do better with those areas that are making it difficult for them, you know, get help to do that so that their kids are moving forward, particularly teenagers, teenagers developmentally start to separate from their parents from at about age 11 ish, so that they can eventually leave the nest when they're right after high school. And when they start to separate from parents, they need to be able to latch on to peers. And if they don't have that peer group, they're just kind of floating out there without being tethered to anything. And that that's what that concerns me because they do need tethering to other teens. And they need to find that place where they're okay. They're accepted there. They belong. So it's really important for parents to find that. Otherwise, they're very unsettled. And you might even find that they don't want to pursue anything outside of high school, they want to stay home and we don't we don't want to have that basement of yours be used for a 35 year old. No, no, no. So right. You want you want that separation, you know, and so you have to help that happen because developmentally they they really crave and need that to be able to become a functional adult. Yeah, so it's critically important that they find that. And, you know, it's, it can be really difficult if somebody has super unique interests and all these other things. So you really have to help them find their way, one way or the other, if they can't do it, get outside help to help them do it.Hannah Choi 40:18Yeah. And I imagine as parents, I mean, it's, it's hard enough to, to let your kid you know, start to move away from you and out into the world when you when you're confident about your child's social skills. So I imagine that, that for parents whose kids do struggle with social skills, it is even harder to to, to support that or allow that to happen. And to do it's almost like you're like pushing them out of the nest. Nadine Briggs 40:50But well, I always say prepare them for whatever their next big phases. So if they're, if they're in elementary school, you're preparing them for middle school, you're in middle school, you're preparing for high school, when you're in high school, you're preparing for whatever's after high school. And if after high school is college for you, you have to be ready to live in a dorm. And so when you think unless you're going to commute or whatever, if you're gonna live in that dorm, you're gonna be just a few feet away from some other person you don't know. And you might even be in a forced triple and a little tiny room. That's a lot of socialization and connectedness to other people that you may or may not do well at. And so that can really affect kind of how you are over your overall well being if you're not able to do well in those settings. So I always look at if you're in middle school, and you're super socially awkward, let's get on it now, and get you ready for you know, if you if you think you're a college bound person, or even if you're not, you're even in the military, they have lived in close quarters. If you're working with people, you decide to go to trade school and you go to work, you know, a job, you need to still be able to get along with people, right? You know, and even in your first jobs, you know, when you're old enough to work, a lot of times your boss is maybe a power hungry teenager. That's right, you're not necessarily going to have some 40 year old seasoned manager knows how to handle you're right, you're gonna get somebody who's maybe not that great at managing people and in their own communication skills around your employment. Yeah, you know, those are all challenges they need to be ready for. So it is really important to get on all of these soft skills as best we can early as possible so they can be more competent.Hannah Choi 42:29Yeah, those transitions are huge. And I and I think it's, it can be difficult to be that forward thinking when you're in the middle of, you know, the, the difficulty of high school or the you know, the, the the challenges of middle school, it can be hard, it can be hard to be so forward thinking and but it sure does help if you're able to, I know that's something that we coaches work a lot a lot on is like the transition transitions, yeah, transition from from school to work, or from school to college and working on all the associated executive function skills that come with that and turns out there's a whole bunch of social skills, too.Nadine Briggs 43:09Finding your voice, finding your confidence, you know, if someone says something to you being able to kind of report back or say something back to them that feels comfortable to you. And those types of things are important, like I that one of the young women I work with, she's super shy, and people will say things like, Oh, I can't believe she talked, you know, and I tell her I say yeah, I did. Yeah, just like of course I did. I did that like, Yeah, you bet I did! you know, to get her from oh my gosh, I can't believe they said that, too. Yeah, I did is a journey, you know, and but by the time they're done with high school, we want them to be in the Yeah, I did. And yeah, I am, you know, here I am worlds, you know, are you ready for me and have that kind of confidence in themselves. And then that takes time to build that up if they don't have that now and then so it's a it's a process to get there.Hannah Choi 44:01And it takes a lot of being brave and putting yourself out there and being vulnerable and trying new things, which is super scary. And I'm sure that the kids that come to you are so grateful for for what you do and the parents of the kids too, because it is so scary to try new things and to have a coach or you know, some kind of support person along with for the ride is invaluableNadine Briggs 44:25yeah, we need to have resiliency is huge. The Resiliency is huge. You need to be able to work through these things and if they don't go your way. Yeah, you need to be able to find the silver linings on things.Hannah Choi 44:37Gold directed persistance gotta stick with it. Nadine Briggs 44:40You do, you do and it's all you got to train your brain to think that way. And so there's a lot of things we do to teach them how to do those exercises to get your brain in the right frame of mind around all of this. Yeah.Hannah Choi 44:54It's it's just, I just wish that I could give For every child, all of the things that they need, you know, I wish that every child could every parent could know about, you know, these kinds of support and get access to them. And it's wonderful to be able to do that. Nadine Briggs 45:12I agree, if you try to get the word out there as best you can, and you know, shout from the rooftops and hope that they hear you, you know, because it is so important, and it's life-changing stuff. And, you know, there should be a focus on academics. I know there is a big focus on academics, but this other stuff is just so so important, too. Yeah. And it's not enough to be smart. You need to have these other skills as well.Hannah Choi 45:33 I do think that there is more, more conversation about it these days. And like we were talking, before we got on about the pandemic has created more opportunities to talk about challenges that people have, and more people are more open to being flexible. So I guess that's one good benefit about side benefit of the pandemic, is allowing these conversations to happen more.Nadine Briggs 45:35Absolutely. I mean, you know, I tend to be more of an optimistic person, I look at the silver lining of things. And honestly, with the pandemic, we went online. Yeah. And had we not, I mean, we serve kids from, you know, 11 different states and get kids from Canada. Yeah. They make friends. Yeah, we have a kid in Florida, I was friends with the kid and Long Island. And, and you know, and that never would have happened before. And so you have to look at those things, as difficult as creating a whole new program online was, you know, when it worked in the end, I mean, there were some bumps, so we had to figure things out. But you got to look at the silver lining of things, no matter what you're faced with and focus your brain on the things that are going well, versus the things that don't go well.Hannah Choi 46:45And what a great attitude to go into learning social skills with, you know, you can look for the little tiny thing, little tiny win that you have that you know that you weren't able to do yesterday, I said hi to somebody, and yesterday, I couldn't even look at them.Nadine Briggs 46:58So yeah, exactly, exactly.Hannah Choi 47:02That's great. So what are you excited about or looking forward to in the field of social skills development for kids?Nadine Briggs 47:10I am really excited that in the social skills development, that there is a really big movement on teaching the resiliency piece of things. I think that's a really big missing element to it. But what it what it is, it's more with this kind of building the muscles in your mind that are focused on things that are going well, versus the things that are not going well. So it's kind of like if you're thinking if you're focusing on the woe is me all the time, though, that's the the firings in your brain that are going to they're going to solidify for you. If you're thinking about the things that go well, those are going to be the things that you bring that get the most strength, it's kind of like going to the gym and lifting weights, right? You, you want to lift your optimism weights and not your negative weight, like that has some has some weight. Yeah. And so we do that with kids all the time. And like if I hear from from a parent, so for example, I have this one kid whose parent will email me and say, Oh, my gosh, the change in my kid, I hear him when we carpool with other people making conversation now in the backseat with the kid, rather than just being quiet the whole ride. The next time I see that kid, I'll go, I heard you're a rock star on those carpooling trips, and that you're now making conversation with people where you didn't used to make conversation before. And I'm really impressed by that. So by saying that to him, he's all like, oh, wow, like, I, she's reinforcing what I'm doing. I'm really taking what she taught me and doing it, she sees me. And that encourages him to do it even more not to mention the fact that he's made a connection with that person. So it's all that kind of stuff. Like I'll say things to kids, like, I'm really impressed by you, or I like the way you think. People never get told they like the way they think. So there's little, there's little phrases and things like that, that that are, they're just embedded into the into how we interact with people. We do things with kids, we have these things called "I CAN" cans. And basically like I'll take like a Crystal Light container that has those those packets in it, you know, that plastic container when it's all gone. And we'll put like, colorful paper around it and just say "I Can" on it. And, and so those are a nice little tool for parents to use in their homes. It's probably from a little bit more for your younger kids than teenagers. But just you know, the things that you can do, like, you know, I can do this, like I know, I can get my homework done on time, or I can be a good friend of somebody who's sad. And when they see evidence of the things they're doing well, right, you put the little note, you can do this and you put it in the can. And it's like it's kind of like never giving an empty compliment to somebody. Yeah, you saying like, Oh, you're such a nice person. Now you're such a nice person. Because when I saw this kid struggling with how to play that game, you'd pull them aside and you explained it to him with a lot of patience. That that's a that's a loaded compliment where I'm telling this person exactly why I'm saying they're a good friend. I'm not just saying it because I want to say something Nice, I'm saying it because I mean it. And here's the evidence that I saw, that shows me what a good friend you are to that person. And so that that's the power of that sort of thing is like, you're not just, you're not just blown fluff at somebody, you do have an evidence based reason for saying what you're saying to them. And I think that's really powerful for them, because they can really latch on to that, and it doesn't feel like left to them, it feels really meaningful. And then you're gonna get more of the same from that person, because it was acknowledged in a really positive way.Hannah Choi 50:31 Right? That's so great. Well, I hope that continues to be used in in schools and different environments where kids are over the coming year.Nadine Briggs 50:44And I think that's the challenge schools are overwhelmed. So you say, oh, let's bring in you know, positive education and resiliency training and well being it that that's the challenge right now, I think, to the, to the people who are really interested in spreading the word about this stuff. That's, that's the challenge is that it almost needs to come from the children. And I think that's, that's programs like mine, where we're teaching it, and then they're showing other people the power of it, like a little army of Optimists out.Hannah Choi 51:15Well, that's something that I've talked about on the podcast before and just something that, you know, as a coach, I try, like, my, my ultimate goal is that my clients will go out and into the world and, you know, share what they've learned in their coaching sessions and, and help others with their own executive function, skill development. So it's the Yeah, same idea. And I'm sure that, you know, just like we as parents model things for our kids, our kids can model the model for their friends. Nadine Briggs 51:43So it's sometimes for their parents. Hannah Choi 51:45And yes, that's right. Yeah, right.Nadine Briggs 51:49I have a six year old who is who sometimes will, social coach his mom.Hannah Choi 51:54Great. I love it. Well, thank you so much. This has just been fascinating. Nadine Briggs 52:01I thank you for having me. Hannah Choi 52:02Yeah. Where can our listeners find out about you and your program is available? Worldwide? Sounds like so. Yeah, just share with share where people can find you.Nadine Briggs 52:13Yeah, simplysocialkids.com is the website. And usually we do as an intake for for new families so we can determine if the program is a good fit for their child or their teen or their young adult. And then we do free trials. So with they'll set them up for a free trial, they can take it for a spin. So they think of it and then if they're interested, they can enroll.Hannah Choi 52:30That's great. Oh, good. Well, best of luck to you. And, and I'm sure there's, like you said an army of kids out there that are spreading the spreading the good social skills that they've learned from you. Nadine Briggs 52:42Let's, let's hope so, that's the goal! Hannah Choi 52:46All right. Well, thanks again, for talking with me. I really appreciate it.Nadine Briggs 52:51Thanks for having me.Hannah Choi 52:54And that's our show for today. I really hope that you found something useful in my conversation with Nadine. And hopefully you learned something that will empower you or your kids to enrich your social lives. I'm truly so glad you're here and that you took time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics that we cover in each episode of Focus Forward, please share our podcasts with all those new friends you're gonna make. And be sure to check out the show notes for this episode on our website. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop, and you can easily find the resources that we share on each topic. Thanks for listening

Support based around Executive Function improvement promises a lot, but is there any evidence that you can actually improve your Executive Function skills? And if you can, what does the process look like and how can you truly measure you or your child's Executive Function improvement? In today's episode, we explore these questions and more with thought-leader Peg Dawson - an esteemed psychologist, expert in Executive Functions, and the co-author of the acclaimed book "Smart But Scattered" which she wrote with her colleague. Richard Guare, and has become essential readings for ADHD and Executive Function skill development.I had an incredible time talking with Peg and learning from her wisdom. I also know you'll find endless amounts of valuable insight that you can use from our conversation in your own life.Related ResourcesExecutive Skill Questionnaire-RevisedESQ-R Self-Report Assessment Tool -This is the tool that Peg and I discuss in this episode. You can take it here, free!Beyond BookSmart Reviews & Our Results - How Beyond BookSmart used the ESQ-RSmart But Scattered books by Peg Dawson, EdD and Richard GuareSmart But Scattered - The Smart But Scattered websiteHelping Children and Teens Strengthen Executive Skills To Reach Their Full Potential (Parent Webinar) - This is the video I mention towards the end of the episode. A fantastic resource for learning more about EF skills. Old Enough! - A Netflix show about Japanese toddlers who go out on errands.TranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. I heard from one of our listeners, Margy, who shared that she is really enjoying listening and would also like to learn a little bit more about executive function skills and deepen her understanding of how they impact us. Well, Margy will get her wish today, because for this episode, I got to have a conversation with Peg Dawson. Peg is an expert in the field of executive function skills, and the co-author of Smart but Scattered, which she wrote with her colleague Dick Guare. Smart but Scattered is one of the leading books on ADHD and executive function skills. I'll let her tell you more about herself and the work she does. But before I dive into her conversation, I wanted to share that you'll hear us mention the 11 executive function skills throughout the podcast. If you're not familiar with all of them, I thought it might be helpful if I did a quick review. But before I do that, I wanted to mention one other thing that you might find interesting and valuable. You can discover your own strengths and challenges when it comes to executive function skills by using the Executive Skills Questionnaire, which is a tool that Peg and Dick developed. At Beyond BookSmart we also use this tool to help our clients measure their own executive function skills before and after working with their coach for some time. You'll hear Peg and I discuss the findings which I have to say are pretty promising. And definitely give hope to those of us who are forgetful, disorganized, or inattentive. Check out the show notes to find the link to this questionnaire. Okay, so back to that review of executive function skills I told you I'd share. If you already know them, you are welcome to skip ahead about three minutes and jump straight to my conversation with Peg. Okay, so here we go. Executive function skills are the skills that we use to get through, or execute our days. These skills emerge and develop over the period of time from birth until about mid to late 20s. But like I just mentioned, it is possible to improve these skills beyond that age. I'm going to use Peg and Dick's list of executive function skills, which they have categorized into two groups, foundational skills, and advanced skills. If you'd like to learn even more about these skills, please check out the resources in the show notes for today's episode. Okay, so first up are the foundational skills that are the first to emerge as kids grow. We've got response inhibition. And this is just a fancy way of describing impulse control. You know, being able to patiently wait your turn in the grocery store and holding back when you really just want to bag the guy's groceries for him because he is just taking too long. All right, next up, we've got working memory. And our working memory is what helps us hold on to information and then use it later on. And emotional control or emotional regulation. And that's the ability to manage and respond to our emotions in ways that are appropriate for the situation. And sustained attention is being able to stay focused on something that you're doing, even if you're distracted or bored or tired. And task initiation is just a big word that means getting yourself going on something, getting started. And cognitive flexibility, which is the last of the foundational skills is also known as flexible thinking and that's just being able to think of new solutions or being okay with last minute changes to plans. Okay, so those are the foundational skills and next up the advanced skills. And according to Peg, these start to emerge in most kids around middle school, but they don't really get a good handle on them until much later. First up, we've got planning and prioritizing, and this is being able to figure out a good way to reach a goal or complete a task. And organization is well exactly what it sounds like. Time management is the ability to estimate how much time something will take and also figure out the best way to stay within set time limits. Goal directed persistence is basically just not giving up while you're working towards a goal. And metacognition is a very long word that means thinking about how we think. And this executive function skill helps us reflect on why we do what we do or don't do, and then use that reflection to come up with some ideas to help ourselves change. And the last EF skill which I love and Peg recently added to her list is stress tolerance and this is the ability to thrive in stressful situations and cope with change and uncertainty. Okay, so now that I've successfully used my ability to maintain attention to the task of reading that list, maybe you can use your working memory to remember some of these skills while you're listening to our conversation. And perhaps this episode will inspire you to use cognitive flexibility and metacognition to come up with some ideas for how you can have a positive impact on your own executive function skill development. Alright, this is getting out of hand. Okay, now on to the show. Hi, Peg. Thanks so much for joining me today. Do you want to introduce yourself a little bit to our listeners who don't know who you are?Peg Dawson 05:41Sure. Sure. Yeah. So my name is Peg Dawson. I worked as a school psychologist for many years in the public schools in Maine and New Hampshire. And then I, I went into a private practice with my colleague and ultimately my co author, guy named Dick Guare, Dr. Guare. And in that practice, we focused on kids and adults with learning and attention disorders. So I started working with kids with ADHD in particular a whole lot more once I left the public schools and started working in a clinic setting. And as I worked with that population, I pretty quickly realized that the American Psychiatric Association's diagnostic criteria for ADHD which is problems with attention or problems, or hyperactivity, impulsivity, or both, really didn't begin to describe the problems. I said, these kids having a huge problems with time management and planning and organization and those kinds of things. And I remember talking to my colleague Dick about at the time, he and I both did our doctoral work at the University of Virginia though we were there at different times. But he went on to do a postdoc in neuro psychology at Children's Hospital in Boston. So as I was describing these issues, these are, those are executive skills. So this is the late 80s, early 90s. And people were not using that term much in those days. So he and I decided we really wanted to understand these skills better, what are they? How do they develop? What's going on in the brain? How do they impact school performance? And of course, most importantly, how do you help kids with weak executive skills become more successful students. So that's what led to our writing. We wrote a book for professionals first, and then realized there was a huge role for parents in all this. So that's what led us to write Smart, but Scattered and more recently Smart, but Scattered Teens. We've written a book for adults as well called the Smart but Scattered Guide to Success. And we wrote a book on coaching quite a few years ago now, which we're just now revising, the revision should probably come out next year, I would guess. So that's my domain. And in more recent years, I've diminished, I've minimized my private practice in my clinical work and to emphasize doing webinars and trainings and professional development. So I work for some professional development companies, but I also get invited by schools to come in and talk with teachers about executive skills. And I teach an online coaching seminar every year, which attracts people from all over the world, actually. So. So that's, that's sort of where I ended up mostly during professional development training. That all started from working with kids with ADHD with executive so talented.Hannah Choi 08:18I love that. I love that trajectory. How wonderful. And I'm sure that there are just so many people in your past that have been so positively affected by all the work that you've done.Peg Dawson 08:28Yeah, no, I like to think so. I used to when I was a school psychologist, my husband used to tease me about trying to save the world one child at a time. I think he was onto something. Once I once I wrote books and realized so I can reach lots of kids by reaching their parents. So yeah, it feels like the work I've done has has stretched beyond saving the world one kid at a time.Hannah Choi 08:53Well, I have to say I just I had heard about your book, but I hadn't, I hadn't read it. And I am I am in the middle of it right now. And I my kids are 10 and 13 now and I sure wish that i i am using I am using it and going to use it and I'm a coach, so I know a lot of the strategies anyway but I just I love how you presented everything and it just it it I felt like it gave me a lot of permission as a parent to be okay with my own executive function challenges my own those skills that I am not so great at and it was really great to read that part. So if there's any parents listening right now and you feel like you're struggling with your own executive skill challenges, I recommend Peg's book because it really has made me feel better and like I said, my kids are a little bit older. And I'm still it's still getting benefit from it. So although I think my teenager could have also, like could have like co authored the book with you. She's got she's got incredible executive skills. I don't really understand it. Oh, yeah, it's, it's but you know, what's interesting is that I was looking at how you break them down into foundational skills and advanced skills. And, and you're right, like she's really got the foundational skills down. And I was just telling my husband the other day before I, before I learned about how you broke them down into the two categories, and I was telling him like, well, she still struggles with like metacognition and cognitive flexibility. And I'm like, oh, that's why, because they just haven't developed yet. So,Peg Dawson 10:31yeah, yeah, it's, it's really reaffirming to hear that. Again, we used to talk about all 11 skills. And we talked about them roughly in the order in which we think they emerged developmentally and then it's, it finally dawned on me. Now, there's a distinct difference between those advanced skills and those foundational skills. And I just find it particularly when I'm talking with, with parents, and teachers of middle school kids, in particular, to tell them, these skills are just emerging at this age. So let's understand that if you've got a kid who's struggling with planning, or organization and time management, that is totally age appropriate. Because so many people have this sort of expectation that kids are going to be proficient at that age, and they're just not soHannah Choi 11:16yeah, I just just in the most recent podcast episode that we released, a, it was a conversation that I had between the mom of one of my clients, just me, and, and she, when I met her, she was in fourth grade, and now she's in eighth grade. And, and I've been working with her the whole time. And it's really neat to see, to see those executive skills emerging as the time has, has gone on. And also, you know, like, just maturity and all that, that goes hand in hand with all of that. And, and just yesterday, she's really, really demo- In our session yesterday, she really demonstrated that, that she's really moving into the some of the more advanced, advanced skills us it's exciting to see.Peg Dawson 12:00Yeah that's really gratifying to see. And, you know, for for kids with ADHD, again, I'm always preaching patients to parents. I don't know how many both kids themselves as young adults, but also parents of kids with ADHD, when they reached young adulthood, you said, you said, you know, wasn't till their their mid 20s. And it felt like this light went off or the switch changed or something. And so that's why I'm always saying you can't judge your child at 14 and make assumptions or predictions or what they're going to be like, at 24, 25. Because there are radical changes that occur in that time. And I think it gives some parents...Hannah Choi 12:43Yeah, right. I was just going to say like, what do you what do you say to someone who feels like, their child is never going to, you know, get to the point where they can do X, Y, and Z? You know, how do you how do you support parents who feel like, they're not changing fast enough? Or they're not, you know, becoming what they want them to be fast? Yeah,Peg Dawson 13:02yeah. Well, one of the things I say over and over again, is it progresses measured in years and not months with these kids. And yeah, and in fact, I had a school counselor who actually printed that cut it, printed it out, framed it put it on the wall in her office, because so many parents, middle school counselor, of course, so many parents coming in saying Why can't my kid do this, that or the other thing? And so I sometimes say to think back a year ago, can you see progress since a year ago? Because that's a more reasonable timeframe than to look at the child's six weeks ago. And and assume that they're not moving fast enough? Because we're talking about these are habits. I mean, I call executive skills, habits of mind, but we know it takes a long time to acquire a habit. And that's under normal conditions when the brain is not still developing. So so in a developing brain on top of that, and no wonder it takes time.Hannah Choi 14:05Yeah, no wonder that the progress is measured in years, not months. Reminds me of the other saying like progress, not perfection, right? We're just, we nobody's no one, even us adults, none of us are perfect in our executive function skills. Right? I'm sure that you, you have some that you don't feel confident about. And I do so.Peg Dawson 14:24Absolutely. And I do occasionally I do presentations for, for adults, or for companies in particular. In fact, my son works in North Carolina, and he's working in an organization that consults to textile co ops. And he asked me to come in and talk about executive skills last week, and I mean, it was simultaneously translated into Spanish because half the people were there were Guatemalan immigrants. And the other half are native English speakers, but everyone just gave them the questionnaire I said, talk about your strengths. How does that help you in the job? Talk about one of your challenges. How does that get in the way? And I haven't think a little about So what could you do to get better at it. But I've done this a couple of times my son, he's worked for a couple of different companies. And each time he reports afterwards, that people just feel much more comfortable talking about the things they struggle with. And it absolutely is true. And I have to say, this is where the work Dick and I did really opened our eyes. Because when we started writing and talking about executive skills, I think the general assumption was once you reach adulthood, your skills are should be all evenly and well developed across the board. As soon as we developed our questionnaire and started giving it out to audiences, we realized no, that's not true. In fact, we could have just looked at ourselves. And so I, I just, again, I find people sort of relaxed when they realize Oh, you mean, I'm not supposed to be perfect that anything was that's more like the exception than the rule. So yeah,Hannah Choi 15:59yeah, definitely. So the questionnaire that you're talking about? Could you explain a little bit about that? It's in your I know, it's in your book. And I know, we use it here at Beyond BookSmart to, to have our clients kind of check in with their own executive skill development. So can you tell us a little bit more about that.Peg Dawson 16:16So there are a bunch of different versions out there. There are versions for adults versions for parents and teachers to pull out on kids and we have versions for kids to go out. And so the original version, the one that's used the most identifies it had lists three items for executive skill and you basically - It's a very simple rating scale to take because if you're doing it by hand, you fill out the the items, you figure out what's the total score for each and you look at your high scores, those are your strengths, you look at your low scores, and those your weaknesses. The ESQ-R, which is the version that Beyond BookSmart uses, is a shortened version, it has 25 items, but they've been subjected to psychometric analysis to make them the best measures they can be. And from that, although we talked about 11 different skills, it really ends up that there are five primary skill sets that are all our items sort of fall into. And they think I can just get in them quickly. It's it's plan management, time management, organization, behavior regulation, and emotion regulation. And so this is now a survey which Beyond BookSmart uses, you can also find it on our website, you can actually take the questionnaire on our website, if you want to, which is smartbutscatteredkids.com. And we developed in part because we were hoping people would use it as a research instrument. I mean, we're using it now both mostly to educate people and to help them learn about themselves and learn about their kids with their students. But we really thought if we had something was a little more psychometrically sound, then it could be used for research purposes. And that's what started happening in part because it's free. Yeah, and I get I get letters from people in India and people in Malaysia asking to use it, and can they translate it into their language? And so it's now gotten a lot of use. And I think, and with some interesting results, in fact, the Beyond BookSmart results were as interesting as, as anything I've seen, in part because what Beyond BookSmart did was they look use it as a pretest and a post test. So before kids started coaching, and then after they'd been coaching for 16 weeks, to look to see if there were differences did any of their those five domains I described earlier, did they get stronger, and they found some really encouraging results starting with elementary aged kids. And so they broke it down into elementary, middle high school, college and adults. And across the board, they found some changes with some of the skills not all of them, but they would be the skills you would expect to see change through coaching. So it's Plan Management and time management in particular, as well as the composite score, the total score changes as well. But the other interesting thing is because I was just looking at the the report before we went on this podcast, I was just looking at it again. And what I found was that this this strongest the biggest impact is with college students and adults.Hannah Choi 19:29I saw that too.Peg Dawson 19:30So here's what I find this so encouraging, because people will say to me often I'm an adult, is it too late? No, it's not too late. And I've just recently started, I've been coaching and I haven't coached for years, but I've been coaching a couple of adults with different issues. And it's just it's been so much fun to see how quickly they can sort of grasp your ideas and your strategies and put them into effect and we're report back to you. I know it's fun to coach kids. But it's really those of us who coach adults find it to be really gratifying.Hannah Choi 20:08Yeah, I might Skyla my, my now eighth grader, she's my only school-aged client and all of my others are college and adults. So I get the satisfaction of working with college and adult students, it's really fun. That's really fun. Yeah, and a lot of them have sought out coaching on their own. So they're more more motivated, which actually makes me think of something, if you if a little bit shifting gears, but just had this idea, if so, when when when clients come to someone like me that, you know, mostly works with college and adult, they've sought it out themselves, they're not resistant to it, because they, they're oftentimes they're paying for it too. Or they're, you know, they're investing their own time and their own, you know, resources into it. But some of these kids come in reluctantly, and feel pretty frustrated on, like having to work on their executive skills. And I'm sure you've had a lot of experience with kids who are not interested in making any change, right? What do you like? How do you support kids like that? And how do you support the parents of those kids?Peg Dawson 21:18So our coaching process, and we felt this from the start, I mean, it's been it's evolved over the years. But right from the start, we felt like this has to be a voluntary process. This is not something where you can coerce a kid into to do I mean, you might be able to make a kid go see a tutor. And since the tutor is teaching academic subjects, maybe the kid will realize this will benefit me. Because it's clear, you know, I need help an algebra, here's the help, see, I do better on my tests, one of their executive skills issues involved, they tend to be not as clear cut to kids anyway. And they don't necessarily make a direct connection between my problems getting started on tasks, and what I might do with a coach. And so kids tend to, so we, early on, we said, we have to sort those out. And, and if you're looking to coach a kid, step one is to make sure they're voluntarily participating. Now, we have refined that over the years in that we found ways to persuade kids sometimes that coaching might be helpful, and our thought is well, and good coaches are able to do this with many kids that are reluctant kid, if they're willing to give it a shot for a few weeks, then they see the benefit. And then they're on board.Hannah Choi 22:44Yeah. And so soon as you develop that good rapport with them exactly. Get their buy in. Yeah.Peg Dawson 22:49And that's something that I think Beyond BookSmart is particularly good at, I think that's an emphasis in in how your your coaches work. And maybe how your training goes is, first of all, you try to match the kid with a coach that you think would be compatible. And and then you work at that relationship. And you recognize that that relationship is we especially with reluctant kids is going to be the key. If that relationship clicks, it'll work. If it doesn't click, it won't work. We've started also just in the last couple of years, putting a greater emphasis on training our coaches to use motivational interviewing techniques. And those are in motivational interviewing is just what it says interviewing in a way to help the individual feel motivated to want to change. And, and so once you incorporate that into the coaching process, then that to helps you sort out who's a good candidate for coaching and who's not. Because as you go through that motivational interviewing process, if the kid keeps putting up roadblocks, and you can't figure out how to get them to start taking down the roadblocks, then it's really probably a waste of time for for the kid and a waste of money for for the parent. And so I think and again, you probably do this to be on Bookstart we're, we're fairly, we recommend being fairly honest with parents upfront, both to try to assess them that I remember a few years ago, I had an eighth grader come in to see me and the parents thought he wasn't doing as well in school as they thought he should be. And so they thought they came in to see whether I could recommend a coach for them. And my first question was, does your kid want to work with a coach? Oh, no, no, he's dead set against it. I talked to the kid and I found out what his goals were. He had some goals so I sort of began the coaching process within like, what grades would you like to be earning? What do you think you need to do differently to earn those grades? And what we ended up and then Since I knew he didn't want to work with a coach, I said, So you think you need to bring your grades up? I've got a process for that. But you probably can't do it alone, you're gonna need help from someone so your mom could help you study for tests, or he was identified, he had a resource from teacher or your researcher and teacher could have been studied, as well with resource from teacher really didn't want the mom involved at all. So I contacted the resource from teachers that got this great template for studying for tests. Are you willing to do this with this kid? And she said, Sure, absolutely. So the deal I made with the kid was that if he brought his grades up to the level he wanted them to be, and it was A/Bs and he was capable of that. At the first marking period, at the first progress report, we would look at his grades. And if he had met his goal, I would not make recommended, I would not give the parents name, but coach. And then at the end of the marking period, again, if his grades were one, I still wouldn't get the parents name coach. I mean, the ironic thing was, the resource room teacher was his coach. And that was basically what she was doing. But in his mind, the coach was someone that you'd have to meet outside someone else on his own time as a stranger. So that's, you know, again, sometimes we can make deals with kids, too, to have that, but it won't last over time, if they're really not invested in the deals will work for a short period of time, but they won't work.Hannah Choi 26:22Right? It reminds me the idea of just meeting people where they are and and that you can't, you know, what does that like leading a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. And it just, I was thinking in your book, I loved how you how you talked about how, instead of trying to impose these things on the kids than it just set the situation up for them to find some success. And, and for you to as the parent to find some success, and just kind of meeting the kid, where are the, where are they where they are at that time. And I think just as humans, that works really well for all of us, even adults. So yeah,Peg Dawson 27:03Yeah, I'm always struck by how so every year I, I trained? Well, I have this past year and 50 people sign up for my coaching seminar, probably about 25 of them were were real, invested participants. And and so they did all the homework. And they did, they coached a kid and they gave me feedback. And I'm always struck by for some of these, and many of the people taking my coaching class are teachers. So they're used to being in the classroom, and they're used to being in charge and telling kids what to do. And when the light bulb goes off, and they say, well, it works a whole lot better when the kid is the one who's making the goal and the kid is one is deciding how they're gonna, strategy they're gonna use. So it's always, but it feels like we don't do that with kids enough, we don't empower them to understand that they can change and that they can take control. And they can be effective.Hannah Choi 28:00Yeah, somewhat related, but just the idea of empowering kids. I teach sewing lessons. And some of the parents I talked to are surprised to find out that the kids are going to use real sewing machines and real needles and real irons. And you know, they could get poked, and they got to be really careful. And I don't know if it's this day and age, but I do find that it seems like parents are afraid and like they want to protect their kids. So it often ends up that the kids are not being challenged with opportunities to learn these real skills.Peg Dawson 28:33Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting. I've, my son sent me this amazing map of years ago that was printed in some British magazine newspaper, which showed three or four generations of one family and in England, somewhere in the middle of England. And it basically showed it drew a circle around the area in which each generation at the age of seven was allowed to travel on their own. And it went from this giant space, like seven miles for the grandfather, whereas the current generation, it was this tiny little space. Okay, you can walk across the street. Yeah, across the street. Yeah, we definitely. And I actually blame the fact that there's so much media attention anytime something goes wrong. It's that and so we all have this catastrophe in our head that we think is just waiting to happen to our kids.Hannah Choi 29:30And it's cognitive distortion has a powerful grip on on our brains when we are exposed to so much media. My son is actually walking home from school by himself today for the first time. Three quarters of a mile, he's 10 is three quarters of a mile. He's in fourth grade. He's got a great sense of direction, so I know he'll be fine. SoPeg Dawson 29:50I have my, my younger son lives in Japan and they have a son, who's seven and starting at age six When he was in first grade, he switched from a international school to a Japanese school. Starting in first grade, he, they, they shaped it gradually over time. But he now walks to the train station takes the train gets off, one train gets on another one gets to the school, takes a bus to the school, he does that all independently. And we visit. We've been in Japan several times. And it's amazing, you know, seven o'clock at night, and you see these tiny little kids on the subway because they've gone to after-school after school. Yeah. By themselves. So it's suchHannah Choi 30:33If you did that here someone would call the cops on you. Yeah.Peg Dawson 30:36It's such a cultural influence. Yeah, actually an executive skill development. You know, among other things, it's what we allow kids to explore, and to experience because executive skills don't have to be explicitly taught, if we give kids the opportunity to learn them, as they interact with their world in their environment.Hannah Choi 30:59Yeah, I spend. So my my client Skyla. You know, over four years, many of our sessions were just us talking, and me, modeling, you know, modeling cognitive flexibility or modeling, how I was going to plan my day. And I never said, this is how I'm going to do it, this is how you should do it. And I just hoped that, you know, the, that, that what I was trying to teach her was getting through, and it takes a long time, but you're truly meeting them where they are, when you do it that way, you know, you're not forcing anything on them. Yeah, and that's what I love about, about how executive skills can be taught to anyone in with any, by any means, you know, like for kids, it makes sense, okay, like, Let's practice some skills with schoolwork. Because that's the work that you do that is, you know, how you what you do to get through your day, you know, you do schoolwork. And then so for adults, you know, you can you know, their job or their managing their home or something. And I just I love that. I love that about it.Peg Dawson 32:09Yeah, I also think that when we explicitly label the skills for kids or for adults, that can actually speed up the learning process. So I get one of the women I'm one of the people I'm coaching now is a woman very bright in her 40s I think who she's had some medical issues. So she's out of work at the moment, trying to work her way back into work, grew up with an attention disorder, now went to an Ivy League college obviously worked really hard, but she ended up with this residual sense of she can't do things as well as other people can. And so when we meet, whenever I can, I point out that, you know, that's metacognition and that is one of your strengths. In fact, that's probably what got you to the level you're at in your job is that she just needs to hear that because she just thinks of herself as being terrible task initiation, terrible a time management, terrible a planning, saying, Yeah, but let's look at possibility. Let's look at metacognition. SoHannah Choi 33:08yeah, yeah. I that always makes me think it means I think in every conversation that I've had for this podcast, that talk, the idea of confidence has come up, and how working on executive skills really can boost your confidence. And for her, hearing that about her metacognition probably had a positive impact on her on the other areas that she feels like she's weak in. Right,Peg Dawson 33:34right. Yeah, I think it did is if you're good at metacognition, you can get planning eventually. Is such a huge component of metacognition and planning. So, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.Hannah Choi 33:46So that makes me think about this idea of, like, you know, just going back to parents in their own kids. And I feel like so much of the information out there articles that you read, and, you know, knowledge that's out there is for kids, and executive skill development, because of course, kids, kids frontal lobes are still developing, you know, we just, they just, they're not there yet. But, you know, just because, like you said before, just because we're adult adults doesn't mean our, you know, we're like, perfect and everything. So for parents that have areas that they struggle with, like, do you recommend that they work on their own along with their children's executive skill development? I've had some parents do that very effectively. And both parents was sort of the parent will share the profile with the kid. And whether it's a, they're struggling with the same executive skill or a different one. If they both agree, they're going to tackle whatever their challenges then the kid feels like, they're not the only one, you know, putting in all the work here. And several years ago, I saw a kid from the UK. And I had met the coach who was working with him at the time in the UK, but they spent their summers in Maine. And so he arranged, they arranged for the kid to come and be evaluated by me. He was 14. So I had him take the executive skills questionnaire. And he said, have you given this to my dad? Because the dad was the one who brought up? And I said, No, I said, Oh, I want my dad to take this. And so that ended up being a great conversation when I had, at the end of the session brought the data and then they could talk about because the kid and if you ask any kid, they can probably tell you, once they understand exactly what the dad strengths and weaknesses are, oh, yeah, but I do have, you know, a piece of advice that I give. And when I first started giving this to parents, or anybody in my workshops, I thought it was kind of whimsical, I thought, well, it's worth a shot. I don't know whether this will work or not, but I'll throw it out there. And so when I started building into my workshops, is when I consider the perfect intervention for executive skills. And this really helps adults who are dealing with their own executive skill challenges, because I again, I get that question from parents all the time, "I have the same issues. You know, I'm not consistent. I can't, I can't maintain an intervention over time. So what can I do?" So here's the perfect intervention. The perfect interventions for executive skill development, and there are two pieces to it is one that takes no more than five or 10 minutes a day, and that you're willing to do forever. So those two, okay, those two go hand in hand, if it took more than five or 10 minutes today, you couldn't keep it up. And I can guarantee you it won't take forever. But I can also guarantee you, it'll take longer than you think it should. But that doesn't mean you double the amount of time. No, it really. And so once I started talking about that, then I had all these parents sharing who they are, you know, I put in place a getting ready for school routine with my kid on the spectrum. I started in first grade. He's now in seventh grade. He's following that routine completely independently. It took six years, but he's there. And then I thought about how I got my own. So I have a son with ADHD, who's he's now in his 40s. But I thought about how I got him through high school. And that was every day when he came home from school, I asked them two questions, what do you have to do when you're going to do it? It was a five minute conversation. And as an adult. That's exactly what I ask my son every day, he still tells me that's how he basically plans his day, what do I have to do when will I do it? And so it really, if you if you're willing to play the long game, and you're willing to be patient, so now we're going back to patients again, then putting in place an intervention that you consistently follow? Five minutes a day for as long as it takes. It pays off. It really does. It reminds me of I'm I'm also reading at the same time, Atomic Habits by James Clear, and he is he says, you know, if you just like Do 1% every day, when you're eventually just gonna get better at it. Yeah. So yeah. Reminds me of that. Yeah, it doesn't have to be some grand, huge overhaul. And in fact, we you know, if you do the grand, huge overhaul, it's not sustainable. Yeah. Yeah. It might look pretty for a day but and then you're gonna feel bad about yourself. So not being able to do it.Peg Dawson 38:27I mean, looking back on my own sons who neither were a great students in middle school in high school. With each them, I put in one relatively elaborate system to get them to change, you know, it's like offering them rewards for oh, I remember my younger son was starting his homework before nine o'clock at night, and not complaining about it. And if he could go for six weeks, and I gave him a point for each one of those, and we could go for six weeks, if he had this many points, and he could buy the video game he wanted. That worked really well. I could never redo it, though. I remember when he was like a junior in high school, I said, I said, Can we work out a system where you know, you can earn something you want? I mean, you said, Mom, I gotta want to do it myself. I mean, that just basically. So can you say that I had to back off. You're saying you can't force me. I gotta want to do it myself. So yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 39:29Well, that's great that he, I mean, that shows right, his metacognition.Peg Dawson 39:34Yeah, absolutely. And he knew what worked and what didn't work for him.Hannah Choi 39:37Do you have any questions for me?Peg Dawson 39:39So how long have you been coaching?Hannah Choi 39:41I started coaching in 2017 with Beyond BookSmart. Yep. And I had like a kind of a similar job before. I worked at a community college and the Office for Students with Disabilities and I helped kids take advantage of the services that they were that were, you know that were or given to them for whatever accommodations that they needed. So that's where I discovered my love for working with college kids.Peg Dawson 40:05Right, right. Yep. And so over the years since you started coaching, what? How has that practice evolved for? You mean? What is?Hannah Choi 40:19That's such a great question. And I know exactly how it has evolved, I have learned to trust the process. And I have learned to trust my relationship with the client. And that, and that if they trust me, and if I just relax and let go and let it happen naturally, that's where we're going to have the most success. And I remember when I first started coaching, feeling like, I put this pressure on myself to like, you know, teach a new, new strategy in each session, and you know, and like, have some kind of evidence of, you know, of improvement. And now I realize, looking back on it, like I was looking for really grand evidence, and all I needed was these little tiny, tiny shifts that are actually the nuggets of gold that you're looking for. And that's when you know, okay, now I can maybe push a little harder and ask for something else. And I think I was just expecting it to go faster, even though I had learned and I knew for my own kids and for myself, that, that it takes a really long time. And that it's not like a It's not like a switch that happens. So I would say like, for me, mostly, that's what I've learned, which has been good for my mental health, because I used to really put a lot of pressure on myself with my clients. If I didn't feel like my clients were making enough progress quickly enough. And, and so I'm much more relaxed now as a coach, and I think I'm a better coach. Right?Peg Dawson 42:02Yeah. I mean, that was the one of the dangers of wanting to see that kind of progress in whoever you're coaching is that that person feels that that pressure as well.Hannah Choi 42:15They pick up on it. In my experience, that's when they start lying. Did you follow your plan? They said no, yeah. No they didn't. They just didn't want to make you feel bad. Yeah, that's right. I shouldn't admit this. But one of my first clients, he lied to me and his parents for an entire semester that he was doing well in school. Yeah. He got a D and one class, but the rest he was failing. So it was Yeah, yeah, you've really you. You have to suss it out. Yeah. And a lot of that comes down to just trust.Peg Dawson 42:56I think one of the coaches that I trained in that I get together with frequently via zoom, and she says, she, one of the things she makes clear to kids is this is a no blame zone and a no shame zone. So yeah, if you communicate that in a way that the kid trusts that, that you're honest about that, then they're going to be able to come in and say, Yeah, I was intending to do that. But andHannah Choi 43:19so that's what I started doing. I think probably around the time that that that happened with that student, I started telling every time for the first few few sessions, just to remind them that this is a judgment-free zone. And I And if I ask a question, it comes out of completely out of curiosity. No judgment. Yeah. Yeah. That's nice. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no judgement at all. Yeah. And it's hard. I think, like, inside, right, we just naturally judge people, we have to for survival. You know, it's like a thing that we've just evolutionary, like, have done like, for 1000s of years. And I think that it's, you just like, we know, internally, we're judging people, whether we want to or not, that bias is just there. And so we know that we are doing that. So we kind of might assume someone else is doing it. And so it's hard. It's hard to learn to trust someone that you can really be honest with them. Especially like if there's an age difference, right. Oh, like, are you just another parent? Or can I actually truly just not that they can't trust their parents? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's just so important. And I guess with any relationship, right? Any relationship that you develop with anybody is developing that trust. Cool, well, what if you could choose one thing for people to take away from all the work that you've done over the course of your, your career? What would it be? If it's possible to choose one?Peg Dawson 44:55But I guess the message I want people to understand it. And this may be more for teachers and parents, but I think there's some overlap there is that executive skills are the skills that support learning. And if we don't peel away the the surface learning to understand the skills that require that are required to get there, then we're missing the opportunity to help kids understand the learning process better. And so that combined with it takes time progress is measured. Yeah those are the two things.Hannah Choi 45:40And that's, that's a really hard, it's, it's hard, I think. I mean, I would, if I could guess I bet that's that, the biggest part that's hard for people is that making any kind of change, I mean, if you even if you're just exercising, like I'm training for a half marathon right now, and it takes I was take a break in between races, and he's take so long to get back into it. And, and even though I know, like, I know, because I've done it before I've done it so many times before I know I'm gonna get there is still so hard to just relax and say, It's okay, Hannah, it's gonna happen, you're gonna be able to run 13.1 miles. But it's hard to trust that. And so especially when it's your kids, you just want them to be successful in the world, and you don't have to worry about them, and you don't want to have to friction with them. And you just want them to be what be themselves in, you know, in in a successful way. And it's so hard to, to just trust that eventually that'll happen.Peg Dawson 46:44And I think it's also made harder by the fact that unfortunately, school emphasizes getting things right. As opposed to getting things. We're not focusing on learning. We're, we're focusing on passing tests, and not making mistakes. And we all know, that's not the way you learn, you learn from your mistakes. And so, and I, my guess, is if we've looked at all the education systems out there, the ones where, where kids are at the top in terms of how they're acquiring academic skills, it's those where that's what teachers are emphasizing then. So for instance, I'm sure in Japanese schools, they might teach math by giving kids a tough math problem to do that, just at the limits of their understanding of them. They put them together in a group and the kids say, Okay, now solve this problem. And they check in on them periodically, but there's no stress that you got to get it right. It's, can you figure out the process? And it's just, I think that's one of my biggest issues with how American education and it's not just American education and a lot of education system,Hannah Choi 47:55if that's what you know, because yeah, yeah, my, my kids are both going through standardized testing right now, like today, as we speak, and it's really stressful for them. And they're both good students, and they don't find school difficult. But the the, the action of being tested, is stressful, especially for my son, he is very concerned about getting it right. And I've, we've told him so many times, you know, we don't care, we you know, we don't if it's if it's stressful for you, we don't want it to be stressful for you, you just go in and do your best. And, you know, it's hard for him. And that just just kills me to, to see them going through that. So do you have anything that you're excited about that you'd like to share with everyone?Peg Dawson 48:41No, I just, I guess, I mean, I'm 72 years old. So the question is, when am I going to retire? My husband's already retired. So he keeps talking to me about something, when are you going to retire? And and I guess, the fact that I'm still working just tells you that I'm excited about what I'm doing, because I don't need to be working. I mean, I am planning for retirement, and I am trying to think about so how, how can what I've done continue without me so that when people write and say, Can you do this? I say no, I'm retired now.Hannah Choi 49:19But I have this fabulous person who can do it for me. So yeah, yeah. Well, what a legacy you're you'll you'll leave when you are able to transition into that period of your life. So and where can our listeners find you and your work?Peg Dawson 49:34So we have a website smartbutscatteredkids.com. And so there are a number of resources on that website, as well as links to some trainings I've done. There's a parent, a one hour, maybe a little over that. When our parent presentation that I do that was recorded when I was in San Diego last year, which they didn't.Hannah Choi 49:57I watched that! I thought it was GREAT. I loved it! Peg Dawson 50:00Didn't they do a nice job with editing it?Hannah Choi 50:02They really did. It was so good. It was classy classy production. And you looked great. And you sounded great. It was really interesting. Peg Dawson 50:13And in fact, if possible, I'd like to put a link from my website to Beyond BookSmart for this interview, so that because that's another way that people could could discover.Hannah Choi 50:25Yeah, for our listeners, I'll put everything. I'll put everything in the show notes. So you can find Peg and everything that she's done, and definitely watch that presentation that she's talking about. Thanks. High quality good stuff. Great. All right. Well, thank you so much.Peg Dawson 50:40Thank you. This was fun.Hannah Choi 50:44And that's our show for today. I really hope you found something useful in my conversation with Peg. And I hope that you learned something that you didn't know about executive function skills. I'm truly so glad you're here and that you took time out of your day to listen, be sure to check out the show notes for this episode on our website and subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools we mentioned. And if you have a minute, please help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends. Thanks for listening!

When we look to a professional for support, we may be looking to improve our mental health or confidence, but at a fundamental level, we're really hoping to change our lives. So what does that mean when it comes to Executive Function support? In past episodes, I spoke with parents of kiddos who are in coaching now and have made great progress in their own executive function journeys. If you’ve listened to those episodes already, you’ll have heard them share that while it hasn’t been an easy or quick journey, the rewards for both their children and themselves have been tremendously life-changing. I really wanted to explore another perspective on the coaching journey, so I reached out to Fran Havard, who is a mom of four kids, two of whom have executive function challenges. Fran knows a lot about EF coaching because she’s one of Beyond BookSmart’s EF coaches and she also shares her knowledge with families in the role of coaching coordinator or, as you’ll hear her call it “CC”, by providing support by answering questions and sharing additional information about the process of change to help families and clients navigate their way through coaching. Fran and I sat down to talk about what she’s learned and how she manages all of this. Here are the show notes for this episode: Helping our Kids Learn EF SkillsActivities Guide: Enhancing and Practicing Executive Function Skills with Children from Infancy to AdolescenceHelping Kids Who Struggle With Executive FunctionsSmart But Scattered Kids book by Peg Dawson, Ph.D.A Day in the Life of an Elementary Schooler with Executive Function ChallengesFinch App for Android or Apple devicesHelping Ourselves Practice EF SkillsExecutive Skill Challenges: Adults Have Them, Too!Executive Functioning in Adults: The Science Behind Adult CapabilitiesSupport for Adults: New Ebook from an Executive Function Expert by Michael Delman, Beyond BookSmart CEOHow to ADHD YouTube ChannelHow to Work or Study in a Noisy EnvironmentStaying Focused in a Noisy Open Office6 Ways to Minimize Distractions in a Noisy Work EnvironmentWhy Are Power Tools So Loud?TranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. In past episodes, I spoke with parents of kiddos who are in coaching now, and have made great progress in their own executive function journeys. If you've listened to these episodes already, you'll have heard them share that well. It hasn't been an easy or quick journey, the rewards for both their children and themselves have been tremendously life-changing. I really wanted to explore another perspective on the coaching journey.So I reached out to Fran Havard who is a mom of four kids, two of whom who have executive function challenges. And Fran knows a lot about EF coaching because she is one of Beyond BookSmart's coaches, and she also shares her knowledge with families in the role of coaching coordinator, or as you'll hear her call it "CC" by providing support by answering questions and sharing additional information about the process of change to help families and clients navigate their way through coaching. Fran and I sat down to talk about what she's learned and how she manages all of this. I don't want to give too much away. But as you listen today, you'll hear that recording this episode challenged my attention and cognitive flexibility executive function skills like no other. This episode is authenticity in practice, we are truly keeping it real. Now on to the show. Hi, Fran, thank you so much for being here today. Do you want to start off by telling our listeners a little bit about you and your background?Fran Havard 01:48Sure. My name is Fran and I'm a parent first. I've joked with a lot of people around me that I wear many hats. So when they're interacting with me, they got to make sure I'm wearing the right hat. So if I go to meetings, and I'm in my journalist hat, I have to announce that ahead of time, if I'm in my doctoral classes, I announce that ahead of time. I am a parent first though, for children ages 5, 8, 9, 8? I think he's about to turn nine. So nine and 10 and 12. I have worked with adolescents most of my life. I coach, older us adolescents, usually at 19 starting college. And that is my favorite age group to work with.Hannah Choi 02:34Can you explain a little bit more about the roles that you've played at Beyond BookSmart? Just so we can kind of get a little more understanding about your perspective when it comes to executive function challenges.Fran Havard 02:46So I play two roles at beyond booksmart. One is I work with families as a coaching coordinator. So I sort of as a support with the coaching process, but not in the role of coach. I answer I, you know, explain or narrate the growth process to families and I you know, celebrate the successes when we've met another part of the change process. And we're in a different phase of development, I, you know, communicate what's happening in coaching, I answer questions about, you know, if there's resistance to coaching, what that means and how we overcome those hurdles. And I'm also a coach, so I work, I'm also living the challenges that our coaches are living with and living the successes that we're seeing through this process.Hannah Choi 03:35And, and you're also a parent, do you like I know myself being a parent, I, I bring a lot of what I what I've learned about executive function into my parenting, how does how does, being a coach and a coaching coordinator affect you as a parent?Fran Havard 03:56So actually, how I started coaching is an interesting story. I knew, you know, I was a stay at home parent, I had left teaching. And I was sort of working in virtual ed. And I had a child who was she was, I didn't know what it was, I'd been in teaching for a decade. She was messy. Everything was messy, like the hair, the books, the backpack, everything was all over the place. And I just started like, I mean, like the emotions, everything was just and I had an older daughter who was neat and tidy, right? And then the second daughter came along, and I couldn't believe how different they were and I thought that's strange. So I started like googling like anything else just seeking out why is like, literally Why is my kid so messy? And somehow I stumbled across this language called executive function. It was like new at the time. I don't know it was like it felt like new language that I hadn't even heard as a teacher as a veteran teacher. And so I started to look more about it, and then all of a sudden, I hit the on Beyond BookSmart. And I said, Well, you know, at that point I'm not working, but I applied for the job because I thought if I could learn what they're doing, and I could try it, maybe I could help this really messy kid I have. And that's how I started Beyond BookSmart. And it turned out that I ended up out of four kids, two are very messy. And what I realized the most through asking you like, your question is, what do I learn, I learned the language to communicate with them, you know, that I wouldn't, didn't, that I wouldn't have had without, you know, being an executive function coach, like, how to help them reflect on their experiences to help them grow, you know, and learn how to listen more to them, rather than trying to force them into a mold that they, they're, you know, like squeezing them, but you know, you can't put them I've learned how to accept that they're not going to be neat and tidy. And that, either I get them to, you know, through that messiness articulate their authentic selves, or, you know, I'm forever nagging and yelling at them. And I think executive function coaching, which you think, Oh, you must be so perfect and organized to do this job. But, you know, that's how I learned I had ADHD, that's how I learned my children had ADHD, you know, I learned what it was, through my interaction with it, it's a learning, you know, it's a, it's a different style of learning, and being and observing and knowing. And we just have to find how you can be that person in another environment that wants you to be a certain way. And then through reflection, through questioning, and I would say, you know, as a coach, and as a parent, that's what I've learned how to coach my kids.Hannah Choi 07:02Is I one thing that we hear a lot from parents, and I'm sure you have to is parents feeling like, like, I didn't know, like, I didn't know what was going on, or like, I knew something was off, but I didn't know what it was. And then, you know, like, I wish I had done something differently, or I wish I had found, you know, about executive function, just executive functions earlier. Did you go through any of that?Fran Havard 07:30Oh, absolutely. It was like, there's this expression, if you can name it, you can tame it. Yeah. And I found when I could name those EF executive function areas, like, you know, metacognition, or planning, prioritizing time management, task initiation, if I could name it, see the strategies that I could bring in. But before I could break it down and see those parts, I just saw a big mess. Once I can name the parts, I was able to analyze how those pieces were coming together to create what I was seeing in front of me. And that's knowledge feature, every parent, every kid needs to know. Because if you can say, task initiation is my struggle right? Now, I know I don't want to do this, but I'm going to give myself a five minute goal to get over this hurdle, you will find that they are the awareness to know what their drag is use that tool to get through it. And then it's not failure. That's why I love executive function coaching because these messy kids meet failure again, and again, because they don't know how to name the pieces. So it just seems like a giant mess. And if anything that I've learned from working this job, it's like it's and I always say this with clients. It's a constant unraveling, like this braid on the back of your head, and you're pulling apart the strands, and you're rebraiding it. So that it's, you know, how they want it braided but it has shape, it has definition and the parts are recognizable.Hannah Choi 09:15I love that. So when you're working with families, and you're working with the you know, so say the child is in coaching, and the child has you know, been identified as someone who is not like fitting in to the mold I mean, really they are they just haven't found the strategies that work for them to fit into society as it is. Now I'm sure there's like a world somewhere where messy people would just be like embraced and welcomed Fran Havard 09:44In their their messy world right? Yeah. children's book writer that has that messy character it's like this blob of color and you know, the sunshine guy he's got Mr. Messy is my favorite character of all because it's like You're just like, what is it? It's like, I wish I had a piece of paper, but it's like this big scribble guy walking around with.10:08I think I remember that10:08He reminds me of my daughter, you know, use that metaphor we use that. I use that with her so that she laughs about it, because, and you gotta you gotta have laughter right?Hannah Choi 10:20Yes. Speaking, I don't know if you can hear it, but there's some kind of loud noise going on Fran Havard 10:25Is someone serenading me? What's happening out there?Hannah Choi 10:28I don't know. There's like a loud drill or a saw, like people don't realize I'm recording right now? (laughter)Fran Havard 10:34I thought that was a song I was like, kids playing instrument out the window. (laughter)Hannah Choi 10:39No, it's the neighbors. Okay. A big part of parenting, at least I know, for me, and many of my friends is this guilt that we that we feel. Regardless, like, regardless of what the topic is, what area of life it is we're bound to like find some, you know, something that we fault ourselves for. Do you? Does that come up in your conversations with parents?Fran Havard 11:02Yeah, I mean, I think it's really important that, you know, me having had the experience of not knowing what was happening and having an experience where I was yelling at my kid, you know, to get them to put their shoes on, or find their backpack or wonder why one morning, she grabs a backpack, puts it on her back and gets ready for school. And it's not even her backpack or you know, I've had those experiences, where you can't understand why they just don't get it. So for me to have made changes to my own behavior, such as: This is your hook. This is your backpack. For me to have made changes to how I parent and my expectations for her and how I can better support her and the youngest son made a world of difference on conflict in the house. So whenever I work with parents, I some part of the conversation that I'm listening to what they're saying, I'm hearing that your son is not filling out a Google Calendar. But what I'm saying to you is, what can we do to sort of support that process? How can we help? Because telling my daughter to pick up her backpack and put it on her back? Doesn't mean she's gonna know which backpack. And so just because your son has a Google Calendar, how can we increase the our interest in it, get engagement, you know, engage with that tool, as a family. And I feel like a lot of my experiences as CC is translating.Hannah Choi 12:44I know for myself, like my son is very forgetful. He's he's very much like me. And so. So every morning, it would it was this constant thing of me saying like, did you get this? Did you get that? Did you get this? Did you get that? And I'm like, What are you doing? Hannah, you need to you need to approach this like a coach. So we made a list. And we have a list on the door that goes out to the, we leave from our garage, so there's a door that goes out there. And so there's a list on there. And he's gotten so good every morning, he stands there in front of it. And he's 10. And he stands there in front of it and reads everything off and then scampers off to get the one thing that he forgot. And it and it's totally taken the stress out of the mornings. For us. It's, it's absolutely, it's taken the pressure off of me, it's removed that from my role, which is great for him and for our relationship.Fran Havard 13:33Exactly, because it gives them I know exactly what you're saying. Because there's this tool that I used with one of my children, I just started using an app where it's one of my clients actually showed me this, they said they use this little character, and you set goals for yourself. And you design your character and you set goals like brush your teeth in the morning, make sure your math homework is packed, wear underwear. Your parents of kids with executive function issues, like the first thing you're like is you put the underwear on, you know, because that step they miss. So like we have tags like that on this app. And then they he comes in the morning, and he'll slide that he did these things. And then the character will get moving. And the character goes on an adventure. And you don't know that's adventure. It's just it's little penguin walking. And and when you do more, it shortens the journey. So they, he will come home from school and he'll pick up his iPad to look at his penguin and what the penguin found on the journey because it's usually a four hour journey or five, he'll make find coconut milk, he's like, "Ma, I found coconut milk". And I'll be like "that's amazing!", but it all stems from him having done those acts and that's tied to the metaphor of task initiation. Right, right.Hannah Choi 14:51 Yeah. I love that. That's great. We will include more about that app in the show notes if anybody wants to get in We have that. So if any, any of our listeners hear this noise in the background, the house next to me is apparently undergoing some kind of alteration, there's some wild saw or drill or something going on. My apologiesFran Havard 15:13 I'm a bit nervous about the timber part, when whatever they're sawing falls down. Hannah Choi 15:20Okay, they obviously do not see the big red Record sign that I have, that I should have. Something that I write about a lot. And I, I struggle with myself a lot is this expectation that just because we are executive function coaches, we kind of put this pressure on ourselves, like, oh, maybe we are also supposed to be excellent in all of our executive functions. And I think executive function coaches are such great examples of how no one on this earth has perfect executive functions. And so where, what if What areas do you have to work on and what challenges do you find? Fran Havard 15:56You know it's funny because when I think about executive functioning coach, we're just having strong executive function, it doesn't always have to look neat and tidy. Like, I have a friend who is, I mean, counters are sparkling, everything is white, got three kids, right? Everything's still white, even with the three kids running around the house, everything has a container, I'll never be that person. So what executive function skills look like, for me, are not what they look like for other people. And for me, it's become like, it's about knowing how to prioritize what's important. That's strong executive, you know, how many projects we deal with every day, when we sit down? If you have four kids, three of those kids are classified special ed. I mean, that alone is a bucket, that alone is a task list. Yeah, that's how I think in those terms, you know, I think I have to do X, Y, and Z, my house doesn't look perfect. My purse, I, I haven't carried one in a very long time. Because I, I lose it, you know, like, but what I've gotten really good at is thinking in categories, and then sub categorizing. And I can, you know, I've gotten good at a planner or, you know, things like, things like that, when it comes to executive function, but and that's what I say, like, we have this image of what's perfect, what has very strong executive function skills. And if there is like, anything that I've learned as a coach, and as a parent, there's no perfect, there's no perfect if you can figure out like, you know, this is all about the change process, if you can figure out what you want to change, and own that and want that and that's the hardest part. And that is the hardest part of executive functioning as a, you know, strength. It's most people that are good at it, either a going through the motions, or B, they know what they want. And that that's nuts. That's the difference. So you know, if my friend has a perfect pristine house, she prioritizes that executive function area, all right, I don't. I mean, I literally went to bed last night with dishes in the sink. My friend would have a mini heart attack if that happened. Like she she says and understand she I called her once and I was like, What color should I paint for these cabinets? And she's like, I can't watch that video. I was like, Why can't you watch the video? She goes, You left all your cabinet doors open, who leaves the cabinet doors open? You know, like for her executive function coaching is everything neat and tidy.Hannah Choi 18:38My god, I seriously think there's someone. Also, there's like someone here.Fran Havard 18:45In your house? I didn't notice, I feel like you're doing great. But I'm like trying I'm like, I could tell there's a lot happening!Hannah Choi 18:55There's like someone in my house. My husband is working from home as well. Okay. Hey, you know what we said we were gonna go into this being really authentic. Well, listeners, I am treating you to authenticity today. Welcome to my life.Fran Havard 19:15Well, Hannah, you know executive function coaching is a lot about how you respond to things, right?Hannah Choi 19:20It is. It really is. Yes, I'm just gonna get through it. And I'm gonna just love it. And I'm just so happy that I'm talking to you. You can go through this with me. So something so two things that I wanted to talk about. One is you said something earlier about comparison and I feel like that comes up a lot. We have these assumptions in our head about how we are or our children are like supposed to be and how other like other kids It's other are like our friends, kids are a certain way. And oh, like my kids are supposed to be that way. And I think that I'm, I wouldn't be surprised if many of the parents of our kiddos that are going through executive function coaching are feeling this way. And it's just so important to recognize that everyone has strengths. Everyone has challenges, your kid is not the same as as someone else's kid, you are not the same. There's going to be things about your kid that are you know, that they're better at something than someone else's kid. And I don't know, that's just something that comes up a lot. I've noticed in conversations with friends and just conversations with other coaches and parents. That comparison is it's tempting to go down that road. And it's can be a little dicey. If you do.Fran Havard 20:56Well, I find that I have to fight that as both a coaching coordinator and as a parent, this idea of what's right. Fix my kid, you know, this is not what coaching is about, I always find I have a definite focus on what's your authentic self. Because these kids have learning differences. And it's not so much that they have learning differences, how they engage and see the world is different. That's why the result, what you see on the other side is different. Because the kids that we work with the ADHD kids, and other learning difference, kids don't see the same world. And I have to temper the expectation right away that that's a beautiful thing. They will never see the same world that x sees it or Y sees it. They interact in a very unique way. And that is something to celebrate. And so, I had a line with parents, that is where I go, allowing parents to understand that it is okay, that your child engages in different way with the world. Congratulations, you've birthed an individual with a unique perspective on the world. Yes, Well done for cultivating that through their early childhood. Well done for keeping that special bit of them right through, you know, school, and yeah, they might not have straight A's in high school, but we'll help them find a way to be successful.Hannah Choi 22:40Oooh, you're giving me the chills.Fran Havard 22:41I mean, like, yes, it's so true. Hannah Choi 22:48I, one of my adult clients and I were having a similar conversation, he was recently diagnosed with ADHD, and he did a project for grad school where they interviewed educators and just people from all different aspects of education, and about how so, so many people don't fit into this, you know, the mold of, of education, as it is today of most schools. And, and then we were saying that, but it's the people who don't fit in, that are the ones that you know, can really end up making change. And it's the people that are different, that see the world in a different way. And that, you know, that that interpret the world in a different ways. They're the ones that keep things interesting and keep us on our toes. And we need more people that think that way. And then in order for them to reach their goals, yeah, they need to develop some executive functions, strategies that support the areas that, that make it maybe make it hard for them to do X, Y, and Z.Fran Havard 23:53Yeah, I, the other day, a little I was in my son's third grade classroom. And we were doing a word search. And like, I've always been a sort of outside the box thinker. And it, I took the word search, and I started doing it with his class. And then I turned the paper to the side, because for me, I could look at letters, you know, turn around, I can all of a sudden see a pattern that I didn't see before. And I and I, all of a sudden, everybody's sitting at my son's table, turn their paper to the side because they had never thought and I thought and I always think when I work with kids who are, you know, have learning differences. They always have their paper to the side helped me see things a little bit differently, you know?Hannah Choi 24:32Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was talking with someone she was, I can't remember who it was, but she was saying, you know, like, if you walk into a special education classroom in an elementary school, you might see someone like lying on the floor and doing their work or someone you know, using some kind of manipulative or you know, sitting in some kind of unique chair or something. And that's what we need in every classroom. Like it should be just sort of accepted and standard. Some people work on the floor. Some people hold their paper sideways. Yeah. And that's, that's one thing that I love about coaching is helping people find what works for them. And I always say, like, I'm gonna make this suggestion, but I don't want you to think, oh, I have to do it this way. Like, I want you to say like, I want you to tell me when it doesn't work, I want you to tell me what you didn't like about it. I always start my question. Okay, you tried this? What did you not like about it? That's it's super valuable, really valuable information. I'm sure that you've had conversations with parents, when they say it feels like it's taking a long time. Because a common thing that we talked about with clients all the time, I'm sure you've talked about it with your clients. And I know it comes up a lot is like how long it takes to make change. I mean, there's 1000s of books on, you know, developing new habits, there's, you know, podcasts and executive function coaches and everything. And it just takes a long time. What do you how do you, how do you help parents understand that and how do you yourself manage it, when, when either one of your clients is taking a long time, or if you're taking a long time, or one of your kids.Fran Havard 26:11I'm a firm believer that you have to get underneath, you got to get up underneath the resistance to change. So you remember, we we learned a lot about friction when we that when we read the article I sent and you have to understand as a parent, as a coach, what's creating that friction, that resistance to change. And I think a lot about problem solving in those terms. Now, because change is slow because of this friction. And then when you look at like a kid who's, you know, 17 in pre contemplation, which is there, they don't even realize they have to change, they're so over it, they're so detached, and how to bring them to that line, that takes a long time, relationship building, and a lot of making that child feel like they can be successful. And then the more that you can reshape that perception they have of themselves, so that they can see I'm a person capable of doing good things, I am a person capable of having a conversation, then you get the wheel starts to spin. So you have less of that, you know, that friction, and you have more of that's what we're going for the snowball, where one good idea feeds another good idea. It takes it takes a lot of verbal unpacking, we have to change the narrative inside the head. And when we do that, then changes quicker. But and that friction causes that slowness then causes the rate of change to slow down. Like we use physics as we use Newton's law of motion in this company, in Beyond BookSmart to talk about, you know, force and change in the process. It's not always the carrot, I'll give you this and you'll do it. Right. That's artificial. We've learned as coaches that that doesn't work. What Works is how we change this.Hannah Choi 28:19Yep. And so much of that is confidence, right? The how you were saying like, like, if you are at the point where you've like, say, you've been labeled something, you know, you've been labeled, you know, disorganized or you just have, the messages that have been given to you growing up is that you are incapable of doing this thing in a way that people like, and so your confidence has been eroded. And so I imagine that a lot of the friction that we that we do experience is for is not necessarily being able to believe that we could change, right?Fran Havard 29:03That's exactly it. This is me Take it or leave it. That's pre-contemplation. This is who I am. I'm not capable of change. Right? Yeah, that mindset, that's what you're working with. That's what you're changing. You're you are, you know, Emily Dickinson said "Hope is the Thing With Feathers that perches in the soul", like you are giving them that hope that purchases in the soul and then grows so that they can feel that they are more than this label.Hannah Choi 29:32Yeah, yep. It's a it can be hard. It can be hard waiting for someone to, you know, or walking away. ItFran Havard 29:40can be hard because there's a lot of conflicting messages and you makes you think I need to fix everything. And that's why that's why the executive function pieces so great, because it's about the parts, right? Yeah. What are we going to fix this week? We're going to fix we're going to try to and see if we're ready to fix task initiation. We're gonna try by, by getting over this hurdle of going to the gym, or dealing with my physics teacher, or writing this English assignment, Hannah, you know, writing for me is, you know, where my energy mostly lies when it comes through executive function coaching and getting a kid over that hurdle of you write the first sentence, then that's huge. We can get the first sentence written when you know, if we can isolate those parts, then we're not taking on everything. And then those quick wins those small successes that you're feeling, I wrote a sentence. Great. You weren't or you had nothing before that. AndHannah Choi 30:43I opened the doc. Sometimes it's just opening the doc. Yeah, yeah. Yep. And I think that as an outsider, as an observer of someone who struggles like you said, you can you find yourself saying, like, why can't they just that without breaking it down like that so small into such small, tiny little goals can be challenging for the observer. Because it's, you know, we just don't understand. But for the person who is learning better strategies to support themselves, that's the key. And that's kind of why it takes so long right?Fran Havard 31:26To unravel the mess so they can see what they want to work on. Yeah. So they can realize it's not really a mess. It's just a beautiful bunch of parts looking different.Hannah Choi 31:36Yes, that's right. Yeah, it's all there.Fran Havard 31:40It's all there. You would necessarily want to see it or not how they feel that they should show it, you know?Hannah Choi 31:50Yeah. Do you have any questions for me?Fran Havard 31:52Why don't you tell us a little bit about how starting this podcast challenged your EF skills?Hannah Choi 31:58Oh, yeah. Well, that's a great question. As you know, I really love to write, if writer, if listeners don't know, I write quite a bit for Beyond BookSmart. Internally, mostly internally. And so I was super excited about doing this, because I knew that I was going to be able to write a lot. But that also meant I had to be extremely organized. We have a lot of working parts, we have the audio, the writing, the planning, there are so many executive functions that are tied up with planning a podcast. So I would say for me, mostly, it has been task initiation, getting myself to make sure that I do the things that I need to do, because there's a lot of things on the list. Writing everything down. Absolutely. So I don't forget. And organization, keeping it all organized. So yeah.Fran Havard 32:54But thinking what are you going to do next?Hannah Choi 32:56Yeah, right, right. And cognitive flexibility,Fran Havard 32:59right. Next steps is the most important executive function skill you could have.Hannah Choi 33:03It is yeah. So next steps is - we end every meeting with the next steps, you know, what are we all going to do next? I end every writing session. If I sit down to write I end, every single writing session with what's next. I think, Oh, I think if I were to give one tip to anyone in the world, would be to use Next Steps. What is your next step when you stop doing the thing? What is your next step saves a whole bunch of heartache when you can't remember what you're gonna do,Fran Havard 33:33What you're gonna do, like you get up a podcast, most people get up and Chuck their stuff, they go upstairs and drink a cup of coffee. If you sit there for 30 seconds, and take a quick note, you save all those ideas flooding your brain, it's like it's a time window, you got to grab it.Hannah Choi 33:48Yeah, it's so true. And a huge thing that I talk a lot about with my clients is frontloading and doing as much as you can upfront to save yourself a whole bunch of grief later on. And, and that is for me, too, is that like you were saying earlier to the whole reflection piece, like quick, like if you do our little reflection session after anything that you've just done, then you are frontloading a whole bunch of work for next time.Fran Havard 34:15Exactly. And it's like, it's like a flood after you're in one of these and you just got to gotta get it down. Got to capture. Yep. Well, thank you, Hannah. Hannah Choi 34:25Oh, thank you, Fran. I really hope that our listeners can hear it. And that's our show for today. I really hope that you found something useful in today's episode and maybe even had a little chuckle listening to our attempts to maintain focus while the house next door was attacked with a power tool. Here at Focus Forward, we aim to bring you authentic stories and give you opportunities to learn and also be entertained. So hopefully today's episode did just that. I'm so glad you're here and you took time out of your day to listen, be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. On our website and subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast we send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools we mentioned thanks for listening

*Mental Health & ADHD/Executive Dysfunction section starts at 20:21*When we talk about Executive Function, we also need to talk about mental health. Taking care of our mental health is important for everyone and studies show that there is a connection between executive function challenges and mental health diagnoses like depression and anxiety. There are many, many ways that executive function challenges affect mental health. In today’s episode, I’ll explore just two of these: emotional regulation for kids and the impact that ADHD can have on kids’ mental health. I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with two guests to talk about these interesting topics. Sherry Fleydervish joined me from Chicago and Sean Potts joined me from Brooklyn, NY. Sherry is a child and family therapist who is trained in many therapeutic areas, including theraplay, dyadic developmental therapy, art and play therapy, and cognitive behavioral therapy. Her areas of expertise and interests include anxiety, depression, ADHD, parent support, family transition, divorce, and separation support, trauma, attachment issues, and social and relational skills. Learn all about her work with Best Self Inc. here. Sean is one of Beyond BookSmart's earliest coaching clients as well as the producer for this podcast. Now, as an adult, Sean has developed a passion for raising awareness around ADHD and is especially interested the increased risk for mental health disorders and the societal stigma associated with ADHD. He uses that passion every day as a driving force in the work he does as Beyond BookSmart's Marketing Specialist  Check out some of that work on BBS's Facebook page and blog. ---Here are some readings and resources for topics that came up in my conversation with Sherry & Sean.You can find more about Sherry and her work at https://www.bestselfinc.com/Mental Health and Executive Function Challenge ConnectionExecutive Functions in Students With Depression, Anxiety, and Stress SymptomsWhat Should You Treat First? ADHD or Mental Health Challenges?Executive Functioning: How Does It Relate To Anxiety?Academic Anxiety: How Perfectionism and Executive Dysfunction Collide3 Ways ADHD Makes You Think About YourselfSelf-Regulation and Co-RegulationExecutive Function & Self-RegulationWhat is Co-Regulation? | Best Self Family PostDeveloping Kids' Executive Function, Self-Regulation SkillsHow Can We Help Kids With Transitions? - Child Mind InstituteTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. When we talk about executive function, we also need to talk about mental health. Taking care of our mental health is really important for everyone. And studies show that there is a connection between executive function challenges, and mental health diagnoses like depression and anxiety. There are many, many ways that executive function challenges affect mental health and vice versa. And in today's episode, I'll explore just two of these: emotional regulation for kids and the impact that ADHD can have on kids' mental health. I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with two guests to talk about these interesting topics. Sherry Fleydervish joins me from Chicago and Sean Potts joined me from Brooklyn, New York. Sherry is a child and family therapist who works with infants through adults, and also supports the parents and families of these children. She is trained in many therapeutic areas, including theraplay dyadic, developmental psychotherapy, mindfulness, sandtray, and cognitive behavioral therapy. Her areas of expertise include anxiety, depression, ADHD, parent support, and family transition, divorce and separation support, trauma, attachment issues and social skills. And Sean is one of Beyond BookSmart's earliest coaching clients. And now as an adult, Sean has developed a passion for raising awareness around ADHD, and is especially interested in the increased risk for mental health disorders, and the societal stigma associated with ADHD. He uses that passion every day as a driving force in the work he does as Beyond BookSmart's Marketing Specialist, and it's the reason why I thought he'd be a great fit for today's topic. I also need to mention that Sean is my partner in crime for this podcast, he does all the editing and all the sound, which is good, since I can't stand that kind of stuff. So without him, this podcast would not exist. Thanks, Sean. Okay, so keep listening to hear my conversation with Sherry and Sean, and learn some great strategies to support both our own emotional regulation and that of our kids, and to hear how ADHD impacts the mental health of students, and how we can help support kiddos with ADHD. Okay, now on to the show. So today, I would love to talk about two topics that are really, really important to me as a coach, and also to, I think everyone, the first is emotional regulation. And that's how we manage our emotions. And emotional regulation can be challenging for everybody. And it is especially challenging for kids, because they don't have a lot of experience, yet their executive functions are not completely developed yet. And they just haven't had a lot of opportunities to practice emotional regulation. So I'd love to talk about some, you know, ideas that you have shared from your perspective. And and then I would love to cover the idea of the connection between executive function and mental health. Because we see that a lot that there's a lot of challenges by people who have executive function challenges, often go hand have some also some mental health challenges along with them. So if we could cover those two topics today, that'd be fabulous.Sherry Fleydervish 03:48Absolutely. You know, something that I talk about, every single family session, every child session intake is just emotion regulation. You know, a lot of times I've see, I start my intakes with parents, and they come in, and they tell me what's been going on. And oftentimes I hear, you know, these behaviors are showing up and these labels and these things that kids are experiencing, and my mind immediately goes to regulation and where they got in their, in their ability to do that, and their ability to regulate and then the parents ability to help them co regulate to, which is something I talked about. But all of that comes from a deeper lower part of our brains that take so much time and years and experiences and everything to start to build. And so that's that's oftentimes regulation is oftentimes the first place that I really start with families.Hannah Choi 04:43And I feel like so many of us, at least in the generation that is old enough to have kids and then then the generation before us. There wasn't a lot of education about about self-regulation, emotional regulation, and especially co-regulation. I think, maybe even a lot of our listeners don't know what co-regulation is. Would you like to explain that a little bit? Sherry Fleydervish 05:03Yeah, absolutely. So what I often say is that we are sharing our nervous systems, especially with our children. And when they're little and they're babies, we're really doing everything for them, we're rocking them to regulate them, even when they're in our bellies, we're rocking them, we're regulating that, then we're feeding them, we're watering them, we're doing all of those things for them. And then as children get older, we start to help them use build their own ability to regulate themselves, but you know, even, we're even co-regulating with, with our high schoolers to, you know, instead of, maybe before you would pack their lunch for them, but, you know, now you're just putting things in the right spot in the, in the fridge for them instead. And so all those little pieces are helping them regulate, you know, instead of maybe holding them, you're just sitting next to them while they do their homework now, instead of really being there, but it really is just sharing your nervous system and sharing your regulation with your child. And I'm also always, you know, talking about how different energy states require a different type of regulation. So if you have a child who was really upset and sad, you can mirror that with your body, you can get lower with them, and you can talk to them at a lower level and put your hand on your on their shoulder. But if you have a child who's really angry and frustrated, "My brother just ripped apart my favorite stuffed animal!" and, you know, I, I invite parents to match that same energy with their child and get bigger and meet their effect and just tell them how frustrated it is that they this just happened. That's co-regulating, it's showing through your body through or voice through your aspect that I hear you, I see you. And then a child begins to be able to regulate themselves as we, as we kind of practice and learn and model that.Hannah Choi 07:03So so much of, of helping our kids is learning first, for ourselves what we need to do to help ourselves and then through that we can help our kids.Sherry Fleydervish 07:16That conversation invites a lot to understand our own systems, you know, I help parents understand what comes up for them as their child moves through different things that maybe, maybe transitions are really difficult. And so I invite them to wonder what does that feel like for you to when that is happening. And so the first step is regulating yourself, you can't help you can't help your child you can't help them regulate when you are in that state of dysregulation as well. So it really starts with just taking, taking a deep breath, and being you know, taking care of yourself first.Hannah Choi 07:52And it's so hard to do that. It's so hard to, at least I personally find myself feeling like well, that whole idea of putting your putting that mask on the oxygen mask on first, it's so hard in the moment, or just in the busyness of life, it's so hard to remember to do that. And, and that's, that's why I am always I think anybody who knows me, well, I'm always talking about self-care. And, and I think part of it is because I'm trying to remind myself like Hannah, you have to do that too. But it's so important to to take care of ourselves first. Sherry Fleydervish 08:28I think even just hearing that it's okay to pause and put your mask on. And model that's, that's a modeling moment. You know, mom needs a break, mom needs 10 seconds before she can figure out how to help solve this problem. That's, that's everything. And your kiddo feels like they can do that, too.Hannah Choi 08:43You mentioned transitions. And I know that's a really big, that's something that a lot of our clients find challenging. And I just know kids in general, and even adults can find transitions challenging. What what do you suggest for parents or ourselves? If we struggle with transitions? Do you have some kind of go to strategies that you'd like to suggest?Sherry Fleydervish 09:08Transitions are so so hard, and especially ones where we're moving from something that we're really enjoying and really liking and maybe can be regulating for us too, for example, you know, if your kid's playing video games that is actually really regulating and then they're, we're asking them to move to homework or dinnertime or whatever it might be - bedtime, that isn't so regulating for them. And so, just being mindful of that piece, too, when we're supporting our kids through a transition, it's just how you're approaching it and your own. You know, I talked about expectations a lot - the expectations that you don't even realize you have as you're leading up to a transition, what you want it to be like, even if you're expecting it to be abrupt because maybe it has been in the past and then tying in this topic of Co-regulation, how can you use yourself to help your kid get from A to B? Does, you know if the video game is super regulating, can you come in and say, "Okay, you have five minutes left. And then as soon as you turn off, we're going to pass the ball outside. Or as soon as you turn off, we're going to go, you can pick up your favorite game, and we're going to play it for five minutes before we move to dinner", or get out the house or whatever it is. You are offering yourself up to play into be almost like the little train to get from regulation to task that I don't really like so much. But just use yourself as a tool to do that. And that's in the moment. And then before it's trying to set up for structure and as much as as much as you can you have a plan for how often or how long you're going to be playing each game or doing each activity or whatever it might be, so that your child feels as as prepared as they possibly can for the next for the next things.Hannah Choi 11:08Transitions are so hard. I see just parents struggling with them on the playground after school. When the kids are they've come out of school and they're going on to the playground to play and then it's time to go. And I often hear parents say like, "Oh, I don't want to tell them it's time to go because then I know what I'm going to have to deal with". So what could a parent do in a situation like that?Sherry Fleydervish 11:34Oh my gosh, notice that notice that dread? Notice that worry? You know Where's where's this gonna go today? Are we gonna get to the car, are we gonna have a dragging, screaming kid to the car. Just be mindful of that. First off, take a deep breath before you're going. And then how? How can you enter that same playful state that they're in right out there on the playground? They're playing. They're having so much fun. And then they hear time to go right now? What if it was, "Hey, this seems like such a fun game of tag. Can you go and tag whoever it is that's next. And then we're going to head out". It's - you enter, join in the play join in even if it's for a minute, I bet that that minute ends up being more worth it than the potential 10 minutes or the potential screaming, you know, just join in notice what they're playing and then kind of come out together to the car.Hannah Choi 12:40That's so smart. Seems like co-regulation is I mean, it probably doesn't work every time I imagine. But if it sounds like it's a great strategy to practice a lot.Sherry Fleydervish 12:51It might not, you might get, "I don't want to I don't want to go. This is too much fun. I don't want to leave". You can still co-regulate, right? You could say "Yes, I know you're having so much fun. And you don't want to go to piano. You think piano sucks. And this is so much more fun". That's still you're still entering and you're still like meeting them for that really frustration. But we do have to go so like I'm, I want to help you I want to problem solve right now how to make this easier.Hannah Choi 13:19So sure, that read that makes me think of this idea that we should just stay calm, you know, and so that kind of makes me think maybe we shouldn't just stay calm. Maybe we like you said we need to meet them where they are. And it feels a little strange for me to think Oh, wow. Okay, yeah, to get angry with them. But, but then it really shows them that we understand where they are. Sherry Fleydervish 13:43I hear this so often, it's um, I tried to stay so calm, I stay so calm, I have, you know, me as calm as I can with my voice and all of these pieces. And that's incredible if you can, if you can be there. But that idea of mirroring your child's emotion, emotional state, it's okay to not be cool as a cucumber, you know, because if you hear a child to saying, you know, I'm just I'm so so sad. I'm so bummed out or I'm so angry and I'm so frustrated. Kind of like what we said earlier, it's, it's okay to meet them with that with that same emotion it shows mom and dad or whoever feels can feel that way too. SoHannah Choi 14:30I remember my mom when I first started working with kids as a teenager, my mom gave me some advice. And she said, when a kid is upset or just won't stop talking to you just say back to them what they have said to you, just repeat back to them what they've just said to you. And and it's and they just sometimes just want to be heard. So this idea of it's almost like this idea of co-regulation like they you are acknowledging their feelings. You're not You're telling them through your behavior that these feelings are okay. Is that would you say that's an accurate description?Sherry Fleydervish 15:07I love that I love that advice so much because it just shows a child it shows your child that it's it is okay to have all of these feelings. And later on, you know, addressing the behaviors and the way that you express them. That's that's a different story. But you you're modeling that it's okay to have have all of those different emotions, and they're welcome here, too.Hannah Choi 15:28Yeah great, thanks, Mom!! One time I was in a store and there was this little boy and he was probably three or four. And he kept saying he was with his grandparents and he kept saying over and over and over again. Like, I want Mommy, I want Mommy and they were they were yah. Yah, yah, yah, yah, yah, yah, yah, you'll see her later. Mommy's busy or whatever, and I want mommy he kept saying, I went up to him, and I said, you want your mommy? He said, Yeah. And then he stopped yelling about it. Like, see, you just need to say back to him, He just wants someone to acknowledge that.Sherry Fleydervish 16:11Sometimes we just we miss that piece. And, and, and it's almost out of the moment, it seems so simple or from, from that, from the observer, you saw that, like, that kid just wants his mom, you just want your mom so bad. You're so you just miss her. You know, and it stepped him right? Back into right back into it like, well, this adult just heard me okay.Hannah Choi 16:35But I guess it shows that when you are the parent or the caregiver in the moment, it's hard to, to step out and say, and like look at it, like an observer. Look at it like that crazy lady who just talked to my grandkid.Sherry Fleydervish 16:52It's a lot easier not in the moment to do that. Yeah.Hannah Choi 16:55So do you have any strategies for when you are in the moment, and it's hard, and you're having trouble getting out of it as as, as an adult.17:03The first step, it's just it's noticing, and maybe taking a step back, and maybe even getting lower getting on your child's level. And just even if, if it just means, you know, just looking at them in the eye and saying, you're just, you know, you're so worried about, you know, the test that you have tomorrow at school, if your kid just won't stop talking about I have to study I have to do this, I have to do this, I have to prepare this way. And my my advice is, is not so much to focus on the behavior, but to focus on the emotion underneath of what your child is saying. And just get curious with them, they might not be able to tell you how they feel. But they're communicating through even that little boy in the grocery store was probably feeling worried or missing, or just wanted, wanted his mom. And that's an opportunity for us to say and wonder, I wonder if you're feeling worried right now you don't know where Mommy is. Or I wonder if you're just nervous for your test tomorrow, we can pull the emotion out of the over and over and over talk that we hear. Notice maybe what it's bringing up for you, that might be the same feeling that your kids feeling, and isn't able to communicate it.Hannah Choi 18:22Being able to label your emotions is so important. And I feel like I and I think that is a skill that goes along with emotion with executive function. And just sort of that emotional awareness. And that's a big part of emotional regulation is labeling your emotions? Do you have any strategies for all ages for little kids up to adults for helping to figure out what you're feeling or maybe helping someone else to figure out what they're feeling? Because I imagine a lot of our coaches might need to help their clients figure out what they're feeling and maybe the client doesn't know what they're feeling, and they're hoping to figure that out.Sherry Fleydervish 19:04I always say as the whether you are the that whatever adult you are that's in that child's life, or that teenagers like it's, it's okay to guess and it's okay to guess wrong. You know, if you're noticing that a child is something just changed, you can just say, Oh, I just noticed something changed now. What happened for you, but what's going on right now, and it might not come out as a feeling. It might be I'm thinking this or you can you can still use that to be curious about the moment and if they can't connect to what they're what they're feeling, then maybe you can help them connect with what's going on in their body and I invite all ages, clients of all ages to do that. And if they can't express to me what they're feeling then I asked them to just draw it you know, can you pick a color can you draw what that what that feeling feels like in your body? Can you identify it somewhere inside write up your body right now. Or where that change just happened. It doesn't have to be through communication through through verbally, we can find other outlets. And maybe it's just a quick journal for a teenager or for us to just, I don't really know what's going on. But I'm just going to write for a minute and see what kind of comes out.Hannah Choi 20:20So something that that comes up a lot for, for us as coaches and I think just us as humans, and is what I talked about in our first episode is this idea of failure. And I the emotions that go along with that, and how I think with for people with executive function challenges, we, you know, people can often feel like failures, and there's a lot of emotions there and anxiety that might come up. And do you do have any, what's your insight on that, like the connection between between executive function and feelings, emotions,Sherry Fleydervish 21:05To follow up on the conversation about failure that you bring up is just how I loved the first episode that you released when we were talking about failure, because it is an it is a learning opportunity. But in the moment, it sure doesn't feel that way. It was really, really, really bad. And we have our own self beliefs that show up and start spiraling. And then we have all the messages that we've heard, you know, and if you're a kid or teenager struggling with some executive functions as well, then at school, you're probably oftentimes getting redirected and reminded and something wrong. And it's really hard not to internalize all of that, and end up with these negative thoughts about ourselves kind of swirling.Hannah Choi 21:56Well, I was just going to ask Sean, if he was comfortable sharing your own experience growing up, I know that you can relate personally to some of what Sherry was just saying, you want to share any of your experience.Sean Potts 22:09Yeah, I, I grew up most of my life, not really knowing I had had ADHD, it was one of those things where I would never really love going to school, it was very hard for me to sit still, it was very hard for me to like, have that sort of rigid, structured time. And that, you know, there was definitely a lot of friction that happens when I was younger around that, you know, and my parents noticed it at a fairly young age. And that led to me getting my first ADHD diagnosis tests when I was probably in fourth grade. And for whatever reason, I didn't get diagnosed at that time. So the problems continued to get worse. And until about halfway through middle school, when it was just sort of kind of hard to ignore the level of executive dysfunction that I was experiencing. I mean, I was a C/D student and I, you know, could never sit still, I was constantly getting kicked out of the classroom for whatever annoyance my 12 year old self was contributing to the classroom and distracting from learning. So I eventually at that age, was able to get diagnosed with ADHD. And that was sort of the beginning of my journey to treating it. I mean, of course, getting that diagnosis is huge. So from there, very soon after, you know, we started doing trials with medication. And also, I mean, that was a big component. But the biggest for me, it was definitely the executive function coaching. I got, I started working with a coach when I was at this point about 13, 14. You know, it took a little while, probably a year after my diagnosis before I really got moving forward with coaching. And for me, the transformation that happened was just like, was unbelievable. You know, within six months, I would say I was coaching, I was almost a completely different student I was, I was getting A's, which was the first time in my life and you know, I, there was no C's to be found on my report card. But more importantly, I rebuilt this confidence that I felt like I had lost from my years of going to school with untreated ADHD and just feeling like I was so different. That was huge. All of a sudden, I was like, teachers were complimenting me and I was, you know, like, the, my parents didn't have to nag me about homework. And I was feeling really confident in my abilities. And it was a big revelation. I think that confidence was sort of the the boost I needed moving forward. And now looking back, it's been what? Over 10 years since I had started coaching at this point. I'm 25 and the you know, I still am so grateful for the experience I had then, but I also recognize a lot of the problems that I had are not isolated incidents that I only experienced. I mean people all over the world have on untreated ADHD and the consequences of that can be really substantial, both on their mental health, their sense of self and their, you know, future prospects. So I'm have become very passionate about that. It's why I also love my job now working as Beyond BookSmart's Marketing Specialist, where I'm able to educate and spread awareness and advocate for a lot of the stuff that I struggled with and so many other people struggle with. So it's really cool to be here and talking to both of you about this, it's really, it's kind of an amazing, full circle to be here and be able to talk about it in the way that I am.Sherry Fleydervish 25:35Oh, that's, it's a really important piece to bring up. And I appreciate you sharing a little bit about that diagnosis coming a little bit later in adolescence too and what that must be like to experience or go through all of those years of school and not really understand what's different about how your brain works, and what your brain needs, until later on. And when we tie in mental health. And what we know about regulation, as well, is that we can't really access those thinking decision-making parts of our brains when we're not emotionally regulated. And so mental health, and if we're struggling with, even if it's stress, or anxiety, or depression, or whatever it might be our whole, we aren't able to plan and organize and our memories impacted. All those pieces that we need to be successful are, it just makes it harder to do that to get there.Hannah Choi 26:36And I imagine if you have grown up with this continuous message that you're hearing over and over and over again, that you're a failure, I mean, that maybe that's not the words they're using. But that's might be the message you're receiving. And imagine that that causes an amazing amount of stress on the brain, and then makes it even more challenging to access the executive function skills that that are already challenging.Sherry Fleydervish 26:59Absolutely. Yeah. You. It's, you know, those beliefs and your own perception of your own abilities, and can lead to some of those thoughts. And then that I can imagine how then having those feelings, and maybe leading to that either leading to avoidance or anxiety and not wanting to go to school or not wanting to go certain places where maybe those feelings have come up in the past and all of those things, kind of becoming comorbid and leading to each other.Sean Potts 27:33Yeah, absolutely. That's totally true. And I think, from my own experience, and from the research that's been done, I think there was something that said that by the time someone with ADHD turns 10, they've heard, I think, 10,000 more corrective messages than their neurotypical peers, which is, I find very sad, because that has a big ripple effect that impacts someone with ADHD's perception of themselves, first and foremost, but also of their capacity to do things and their confidence. And that, again, it has a ripple effect later in life that really impacts your mental health, your sense of self, your, again, your confidence. And I find that to be one of the saddest things about untreated ADHD is the fact that there's this coexisting mental health risk that people with ADHD also have. This leads me to my first real question, which is for you, Sherry. And it's that I'm very interested from the work that you've done, how you've seen some of the impact that that type of corrective messaging or other challenges that people with ADHD have, how that's manifested into mental health challenges, and the clients that you work with, would love to hear anything you have to say on that subject?Sherry Fleydervish 28:53I'm just thinking about the first thing that comes to mind is this environment, the environment of school, and what is expected of students, and how if you're not fitting in, maybe because of your ADHD diagnosis, executive functioning challenges, you're not fitting in with what is expected. And where I start, oftentimes, I do collaborate with schools, and I'll kind of talk about how I do that with my clients. But it's first starting with, with my clients and with their families, and recognizing that maybe these pieces of the environment actually aren't working with me or for my brain or for how I needed and so not necessarily adapting yourself in that moment, but I'm more wondering how can the teachers support the state that you have, and how can we adjust this expectation to fit in with what you what you need and talking with teachers and maybe even providing some education to about how oftentimes these students are experiencing redirections? And how can we You help them without constantly correcting correcting their behaviors. Instead, working with teachers has been really, really validating for for all the families and the clients that I work with. Because just knowing just a student going into school knowing that my teacher gets it, you know, she knows that I'm not trying to misbehave, or trying to be a bad kid, or whatever it is that had been coming up in the past is is not the case and knows that, you know, I'm trying to try and make the best that I can.Hannah Choi 30:36Have you noticed an increase in opportunities to work with teachers? Like are, is there more of a, are educators becoming more aware of kind of like a holistic approach to teaching?Sherry Fleydervish 30:52Absolutely, I, I really, really appreciate all of the teachers that I that I'm able to collaborate with, and that they're able to take the time to speak with me for, you know, 15, 20 minutes about one of their 30 students, and there is so much more social emotional learning going on in the classroom these days, it's truly incredible. And then that insight is so helpful for therapy, I use everything that the teachers are giving me all those observations, and bringing them into the room. And then life on on the flip side, as well, I feel that teachers are craving this piece and needing it and wanting to know what works best for each student. And they're so willing to implement it, because that's all they want is the success of their students. And then unfortunately, a lot of times, it's you know, what, if you're not supporting my kid, you're not doing what they need. And teachers are self-internalizing, to, like, I can't connect with this kid. And this is so hard, where, you know, I try so hard to just let teachers know you're doing the best that you can. And it's not, you know, some kids have different needs, and how, how open they are to having those vulnerable conversations, something I'm really grateful for.Hannah Choi 32:03And I imagine that there's also it also varies from school, depending on the, you know, the the leadership, and how aware of the leadership is of, of the importance of social emotional regulation, and just how important that piece is, I was just talking recently with our, my, my children's elementary school principal. And, and she was saying that, that for her, that's number one that's, that comes first. And the happiness of her teachers, you know, is just so important, and that she sees mental health as the most important thing first for everybody. I love. I just loved hearing that. And, and so that's great that you're seeing a lot of partnership between schools and mental health providers.Sean Potts 32:48Yeah, that's a great point, Hannah. And Sherry, I'm just curious, I just have a quick question for you, too. Do you find in the work that you do, that teachers have become more aware or perceptive to the, to these issues around ADHD and executive function than they were, let's say 10 years ago, because from my experience growing up, it really felt like, almost no fault of their own, teachers just didn't really know about these challenges, they didn't really know how to handle them. And because of that, oftentimes, you know, that would manifest into frustration or other areas like that. And I'm just, I'm just curious, if you think that's changed at all, in the last 10 years, in the work that you've been doing,Sherry Fleydervish 33:27I think, you know, to Hannah's point, it definitely depends on the administration, the higher-ups and what that, you know, the different environments and of each school as well. But overall, I definitely see teachers were invested on that mental health, emotional piece, I think, because there's so much more education out there on it, the stigma is decreasing, and so many more people are open to therapy, and there isn't this huge stigma on it, for lack of a better word, that it seeps into education, and it seeps into the teachers as well, you know, they are recognizing that they have their own things going on too, then it's so much easier to see and to connect with students who are also experiencing that. And so, I think overall, just it's, it's a lot easier to have those conversations and teachers are really willing to go there.Hannah Choi 34:27And breaking down that stigma around mental health and therapists and you know, taking care of our mental health is so important. And and why continuing to have these conversations and normalizing the idea of having a therapist normalizing the idea of, yes, everyone has executive function challenges like I am the first one to admit Yeah, I'm a coach and I love helping people and I also really struggle with in certain areas of executive function, and you and just just having these conversations and showing people You can talk about it, and it's okay. And talking about it is going to help, it will help, it'll help someone. Oh, that's great to hear that that conversation is happening more.Sherry Fleydervish 35:13And sometimes even just talking to teachers on that note of acknowledging your own challenges, whatever, whatever it might be, you know, that is such a great way to connect with your kid, you know, or your student, whoever it might be that, you know, I have a really hard time organizing my stuff to, here's something that has helped me or let's problem solve together, let's, let's work through this, let's figure out how to do it. Just that little piece, that little nugget, I'll have kids come in, and just tell me that they had this great talk with their teacher, and the teacher might not have even noticed that it was just this little piece little thing that they connected on, you know, I felt this way before. That's everything can be everything.Hannah Choi 35:50I see that a lot in my clients, whenever I you know, if I share something that I've really struggled with, I see, like visible relief on their face, like, wow, this person who's supposedly, you know, obviously, she knows something about executive function. She has struggled with it, too. And it's, yeah, it's so important to share that. Although it can be scary to be open about your own struggles, your own challenges. But I think it gives everyone else permission to think, oh, I actually feel that way too sometimes. And that's okay.Sherry Fleydervish 36:24I've worked through that over the years as a therapist, and how to self-disclose and learning how to disclose in a way that's really validating, and opening up this place of, of comfort. And it sounds like you're working on that same thing, too. And just showing, no, I have, I have these struggles, too. And I have these feelings. And these eyes open up so wide, some of these kids like, well, you know, adults that I model also experience struggles.Hannah Choi 36:56And it's okay. Something that reminds me of the idea, I can't remember what it's called, you probably know, the, the idea where you can feel two different two opposing feelings about the same thing at the same time. So the idea of replacing but with and then so that reminded me of Sean, your your experience growing up? And how, if you had, maybe you've received the message, like, you know, you, you are, you need to work on your organization or whatever, and you're, you're a great student, or you're a good, you know, you might have heard like, yeah, you're smart, but you, you know, need to work on this. And it kind of negates everything that was said first. So do you is that a strategy that you have shared with people? Or is that something that's coming up for you lately?Sherry Fleydervish 37:56I think that when you're when you're offering that opportunity of learning, right, that's usually what what we're doing, at the end of the day, when you're offering criticism, or you're offering your observation or whatever it might be, it's an opportunity for that other person to, to learn or in your mind get better at whatever that challenge is. And so we have to sandwich those pieces with, obviously, things that will make them feel proud of themselves and feel accomplished. And then when you're adding in these pieces of but you can do this next time or but whatever it might be, you know, here's the place, sometimes I'll say it like this, you know, your brain works really, really good at your, you have a great memory, you're very creative. And you have an ability to see all these little details that everybody else may not be able to see, but your brain at, or I don't even want to say but your brain has a little bit of a harder time with shifting attention from this to this or from whatever activity we're doing before to this one. And so maybe connecting with, with that actual piece that they're struggling with. And saying, you know, I'm here with you, I want to help. I want to help you strengthen this part of your brain, I want to help this not be so hard for you. And connecting with you know how hard it is for them feeling that comes up for them. And then working together to be kind of kind of like a consultant or that you know, how can we problem solve together?Hannah Choi 39:36And that makes me think of the idea of meeting someone where they are and and not asking more of them that they are then they're ready for and figuring out what their strengths are and how they can use those strengths. Sean, do you remember do you think have you ever thought about that concept of like, of, of you can be this One of the thing and the and the kind of opposite at the same time. And do you think that any of the messaging that you received growing up as a kid with ADHD, do you think if you had been told this message of you have challenges, and you're like, you're this and you're that instead of you're this, but you're that, do you think that would have made a difference for you?Sean Potts 40:21Oh, yeah, I think that would have made a huge difference. Particularly around when I was maybe nine years old, I remember I just had this one teacher that just never really understood or got me beyond the surface level challenges that she saw. And my mom often recalls this one parent teacher conference, or the typical one that would happen near the end of the year, where she, you know, once the conference with my dad, and you know, for the next 20, 30 minutes, my teacher just kept listening, all these negative things I was doing wrong. And eventually she just snapped and was like, "Do you have anything positive to say about my son?" And I think that's the best example of what it was really like for me being in the classroom every day with the teacher who saw me in that way. And I remember the next year, I had just such a an upgrade, where I had a teacher who immediately got me and saw some things that I didn't even see in myself, particularly around writing and creativity and some things that I've since learned that I really like. And the first time the parents come into the classroom, she mentioned how the first thing she said to my mom, when she came up to her was your son, so creative. He's such a great writer, and my mom tells me that she just started crying, because from her perspective, she had been hearing these negative things. And that was in stark contrast to what she knew about me. But at a deeper level, it was a stark contrast to it, I felt like I knew about myself, but I had really impacted me hearing all the things I had heard that year before from that one teacher, and some of the ways that she approached my challenges. So, you know, I really think it would have been a huge help to have had that earlier. And I think, you know, overcoming that was a huge part of my journey with my ADHD and the executive dysfunction I was experiencing. So no, absolutely, I think that would have made a huge difference. But I also do recognize that I was lucky to have had a teacher like that. And I also recognize that there are a lot of students who don't. And that's really, really sad and unfortunate, because I think anyone growing up with those types of challenges, needs to needs to meet somebody who can see you as an individual beyond just those sorts of those surface level challenges. So that you can realize that they're really just that surface level challenges. They're not some inherent character flaws that makes you you know, irrevocably messed up are different. They're a challenge that you have a whole lifetime to be able to overcome. But within that, you also have your strengths. And if you can have a teacher or somebody in your life who can help you realize that as someone who's young with ADHD, I think that is one of the most important ingredients for future success. And I again, I feel very lucky to have had that both in that teacher but also in my coach.Hannah Choi 43:07Yeah, and then what you said about confidence, I mean, that keeps coming up in every conversation that I have had, I feel like about everything recently, but especially these conversations for the podcast is it all seems to come back to confidence. And I imagine share, you see that a lot in both your clients and the parents of your clients. And that when you learn the skills, then you become more confident, which then helps in I imagine more ways than we will ever know for people.Sherry Fleydervish 43:39That is something that comes up in almost every intake, "I just I want my kid to feel more confident". And that shows up in every aspect, then up up their identity. And when I bring kids into my office, that is one of the first things that I work on is Where do you feel your best? Because these are not, kind of to Sean's point, these are not conversations or things that kids just inherently think about, you know, where my where am I? Where do I feel the best? Where do I feel strong? Where do I feel empowered, and confident? I bet you every kid you speak to will actually have an example of it. But then and offering your own piece if they don't you know why see how how focused you are whenever you're drawing in session. Or seems like you're three steps ahead when we're playing Connect 4 for every single week. Those are these little pieces where you're starting to notice other their notice there's their confidence when they might not even be seeing it themselves. And then using that to work towards some of the challenges and the pieces the things that they want to see different in their own lives. Even five year olds can tell me "I want to feel less of this feeling and more of this feeling". Like, Okay, great. Well, using the things that I know where you feel competent, we're going to, we're going to build on those pieces that feelings you don't want to have any more the challenges you're having at school. You're not just this one thing.Hannah Choi 45:17That reminds me of a conversation I had with my family recently, we went around the room, and we challenged each other to come up with five things that we were really good at, we had to say it about ourselves. It was so hard. It was such a hard thing to do. And I think you're right, we don't naturally think that way. And, and so how great to start off, you know, a conversation with someone that way i when I've meet for when I first meet a new client, I always ask them, so what are you good at? And it's it's hard to think that way. But it's important. Yeah. Great to have any. Sean, do you have any other questions for sherry?Sean Potts 45:59Yeah, so for the clients that you work with that have, let's say, anxiety and depression, but also have ADHD where these two, these two, or maybe even three things are existing simultaneously? How do you assess where to start treatment? Do you start with the ADHD? Do you start with the depression, anxiety, what's the focal point for treatment, and why?Sherry Fleydervish 46:23This happens often, right? Where a client is experiencing symptoms of different diagnoses, and maybe if it has comorbid diagnoses already coming into, into my session. And I start by just really, really, really, for a moment, putting aside that diagnosis, and noticing what is what is showing up the most, and what is the most symptomatic, and what is getting in the way most for this client. You know, if they have dual diagnosis, then maybe we need to first focus on that anxiety. And that is the most important and to figure out how to calm your mind calm, your body be a little bit more regulated. So then you can tackle some of those some of those pieces and those thoughts. And then we can dive into the other diagnoses or the other symptoms, you know, that the diagnosis is important and really validating for so many people. And for me, too, and it helps with treatment, but just kind of looking at a client and a person as a whole, and parsing out what is what is really the most important thing to support in the beginning. And everything else will eventually fall into place.Hannah Choi 47:36I find that to with coaching, you know, we always start off like, what's the thing that's the hardest for you right now? Like, what's the thing that's causing the most stress for you, and the thing that, that that's keeping you up at night, and just starting there, and you're right, I do find that the other things kind of end up naturally just getting involved and and leading into them. And then and then I do notice also that some of the challenges that came up, once we address those challenges, they actually were associated with some of the other stuff too. So then it makes the other stuff that used to be super challenging, also a little bit less challenging, just by working on this one other thing.Sherry Fleydervish 48:19I wonder if it's that they're building on their strengths, or they're starting to feel more competent in one area, and it kind of just even without even that conversation happening. It's just starting to morph into those other places. Other things.Hannah Choi 48:32It's pretty magical to see. So I imagine you have that experience as well. Yeah, thank you so much, Sherry. It's just so interesting to listen to you talk and and you have such a calm manner about yourself. I bet your clients just love talking with you.Sherry Fleydervish 48:51I loved this conversation, I feel like we just I wish it happened more. I wish these conversations were out there more just kind of normalizing therapy and parenting support. You know, it's just, you need the space, you know, and it's not just a drop-off service. I won't let that happen. I don't let that happen in my office. I make sure parents know from the beginning. I don't care if your, you know, your kiddos coming in here, five or 17. You know, I want to work together so that what's going on in my sessions is is coming and translating at home, too.Hannah Choi 49:32When when my kids were little I lived on Cape Cod and I have to give a shout out to Cindy Horgan at the Cape Cod Children's Place. It's a an organization that provides support for young families on the outer and lower cape. And my kids went or my Yeah, my kids went to preschool there and she approaches it like that when you. Yes, your kids go to school there, but she supports the parents so much and you could just make an appointment to go talk with her about any parenting challenges that you're having, and she just wrapped you right up in her, you know, figurative arms and just kept you, you know, gate gave you great strategies and and, and she was so great she was so open about her own challenges and just normalized everything so much. And just what you were saying right there just reminds me so much of that experience and I wish that every, every child, and every parent would have an opportunity to work with someone like Cindy Horgan. So. So thanks, Sherry, could you share with our listeners, where we where they can find you if they're interested in asking you more questions or learning more about you? Sherry Fleydervish 50:42Absolutely. So you can find my profile on bestselfinc.com. And you can also find a whole lot of other resources for children, teens, parents, families of logs, and resources are all on our website. You can even subscribe to our family newsletter. And we often will send blogs through that updates, anything that we've written.Hannah Choi 51:08I'll be sure to include all of that information in our show notes, too. So if you're listening, check out the show notes. And you can find it there too. Thank you so much to both of you for joining me today. I just I loved every second of this conversation. I feel like I could have talked for a whole nother hour, but maybe maybe another day.Sean Potts 51:28Absolutely. Thank you both. This has been such a pleasure to join this conversation.Sherry Fleydervish 51:33Thank you so much. It's been really wonderful to be here.Hannah Choi 51:38And that's our show for today. Thank you for joining me and taking time out of your day to listen, I really hope that you found something useful in today's episode. As Sherry said, it's so important to have these conversations about mental health, executive function challenges and parenting support. The more we talk about these so called stigmas, the more we normalize them, and by normalizing them more and more people will be able to access the support they need without negative reactions from the people around them. And here at Focus Forward, we will continue to have these important and sometimes difficult conversations in the hopes that we help someone, somewhere. If you are interested in normalizing these topics, please check out the show notes for some tips on how you can help. Oh, and hey, you can start off by sharing our podcast with your friends. If you haven't yet, subscribe to this podcast app beyond booksmart.com/podcast. You'll get an email about every episode with links to resources and tools we mentioned. Thanks for listening

Supporting kids with Executive Function challenges is hard enough, but what happens when they're feeling resistance towards changing their habits? How can parents and key support systems work together to inspire real change - even in those who may not see the value in it just yet? On this week's episode, I sat down with one of my favorite people, Kim - the mom of one of my long-time coaching clients, Skyla. As you’ll hear in today’s episode, our first session together four years ago was just one step within a long and challenging journey that has blossomed into a truly amazing story about the transformational power of love, consistency, support, and trust. I have always wanted to share my experience as Skyla’s coach and I can’t quite believe that I finally have the opportunity. So listen in to hear her mom Kim and I tell our story of Skyla’s success. I hope you enjoy it as much as I have enjoyed the journey and that you leave feeling inspired in your own Executive Function journey.Here are some readings and resources for topics that came up in my conversation with Kim about her and her daughter’s journey.Test Prep and Managing Test AnxietyUnderstanding Test Anxiety How to Overcome Test AnxietyStudent Stress: Untangling the Anxiety and Executive Function ConnectionOrganization ResourcesClutterbug - Find out what kind of organization strategies work best for youUnderstanding why kids struggle with organizationEmotional RegulationSelf-Reg with Stuart ShankerPermission to Feel by Marc Brackett, Ph.D.Whole-Brain Child by Daniel J. Siegel, M.D. and Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D.Foster Care and AdoptionAdopt US KidsChildwelfare League of AmericaInternatonal AdoptionResources for Foster FamiliesNational Foster Parent Association ResourcesTranscriptHannah Choi 00:03Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins, you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. So four years ago, I was paired with a new client, and her name was Skyla. And at the time, she was a fourth-grader who was in the process of being adopted, and she was being adopted with her younger sister by a woman called Kim. And the first day we met, it was a sunny day in March of 2018. And we met up at a local public library for our first coaching session. This was BC, you know, before COVID, before we switched to entirely online coaching. Anyway, I knew from the start that this was going to be a unique experience for me as a coach. As you'll hear in today's episode, that first day was just one step within a long and challenging journey that has blossomed into a truly amazing story about the transformational power of love and consistency and support and trust. I have always wanted to share my experience as Skyla's coach, and I can't quite believe that I finally have the opportunity to do this. So keep listening to hear her mom cam and I tell our story of Skyla's success, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I have enjoyed the journey. Hi, Kim, this is so great having you here today? Could you start off by introducing yourself and sharing your family's journey to executive function coaching? And before you start, I just want to say thank you again for talking with me today.Kim 01:51No problem, happy, happy to do it for you, Hannah. Yes, so I mean, I my journeys started, geez, it was probably 2016 in in, you know, looking to adopt children and going through the process of becoming a foster parent, and then identifying two girls, young girls that were in need of a permanent home. And so, you know, Desi and Skyla, came into my life and began living with me in 2017, February of 2017. And, you know, certainly in foster care for reason, their background was was quite a difficult one and a challenging one. And they had a lot to sort of work through and had missed, you know, a lot of, you know, critical academic aspects of of learning, because of their biological home and the circumstances, they're so sort of coming in and putting them into a parochial school with a hope that, you know, some structure would would help them be able to, you know, advance in their studies and catch up quite a bit. But, you know, became clear that additional supports are going to be needed. And so I think I found Beyond BookSmart on just doing a Google search, I feel like that's the way I came across it. And it turned out to be great. Uh, you know, I was hooked up with you, Hannah, and, you know, I think starting in March of 2018. And from that point forward, you've been working with Skyla, and, you know, amazing progress. I mean, really, just, like I said, from, you know, night, today day to night, it has, it has been really a, a real metamorphosis, so to speak. And in terms of her approach her thinking, her emotional regulation, her, you know, confidence is incredible as to where it started. So it's been, it's just been so helpful. And, you know, I think that it's, it's not just about the work and, you know, helping her with the work she needs to do. It really is more of the emotional and organizational skills that I think she she just had no idea how to do those things. And so, this was a huge, huge step in the right direction for her. Hannah Choi 04:47So I know it's been four years. But do you remember how you felt?Kim 04:53Yes, I do. I remember being just frustrated and had no idea how to handle some of the issues that were coming up. You know, there was significant meltdowns, you know, at homework time that carried on for hours hours of, of her just crying, "I don't know what to do. I'm stupid. I don't know how to do this". And, you know, was it a, an attempt to avoid actually doing the work? Or did she really feel that she didn't know how to do it? And I think, you know, looking back, it was a combination of the two. But yeah, it was really frustrating, like, how do you help her when, you know, she's so clearly emotional, and upset and unable to even like, get to a starting point, and then try to go through it. So it was, I was, I was very frustrated. And, you know, she was very frustrated too. So was really looking for some help, just how do we, how do we make this better? How do we help her focus more and, you know, understand that school is something you're going to have to do, you're not going to get out of it. But, you know, let's just try to try to take this emotion out of it. And try to get the work done.Hannah Choi 06:33I, I remember, really vividly once working with her in the beginning when she was still in fourth grade, and she was doing something, something with math and and it was really hard for her. And I think, like I remember the session ended, she was really upset. And, and then a few weeks ago, I was talking with her about math, and she was doing an online math thing that in the past has really challenged her emotional regulations. And I and I asked her, "What do you do now when you are working on that math and it's really hard." And she said, "Well, I just notice that if I'm starting to get upset and frustrated, I walk away from it, I just take a break. And I go back to it later". And I was just I told you I was gonna cry. I mean, it brings tears to my eyes to think about how, what a gift that is for her to have figured that out after so long that now when she's in a frustrating, frustrating situation, she knows how to manage her emotions. And yeah, and like how that is applicable to so many things. It doesn't just have to be math.Kim 07:54No, everything, everything. Yeah, yeah, no, I made it. And I know you really hammered that home with her like throughout many of your, your sessions with her and, and that, you know, that ability to just stop pause, whether it's breathe, walk away, just take take a mental break from this for a minute, rather than continue to get more and more frustrated and overwhelmed by what's in front of you. And you know, she definitely has picked that up and has taken it and it's just, it's great to see. I mean, like you said, it's a great life skill. I think probably I could do that at work and that might help me, too.Hannah Choi 08:39We can all we can all learn from Skyla. Yeah. Every every time I think about her, your I should say your like yours and hers, journey through this through coaching and just through and not even just coaching but just through the process of adopting them and having them you guys become a family and, and you know, watching both girls really change and blossom and grow and is the idea of just trust, like trust, just like trusting the process trusting that people that you have welcomed into your life as a support system. And, and I just think that this is like her your story is such a great example of of that. Because in even my own experience as her coach, I had to keep telling myself like, trust that trust that what you are, the messages that you are giving to her. They're getting through. And it just it was it was hard sometimes to trust that. Yeah, it was really hard. And it took a really long time. Like I've been trying to get her to breathe, to use breathing as an emotional regulation tool for four years. And she used it in when she took her test. And she said it you know and and she said that was the Is your side system ever taken? And I'm like, I know, there's a lot of factors involved there. And I know that breathing is one of them. And, and so trusting that process like, Have you felt that? through it? Yeah.Kim 10:13I mean, you know, I feel like I was in such dire straits when she initially started that I felt like I had no choice. You know, clearly as time has gone on, and I've seen her, you know, make positive, you know, move in a positive direction. It's, it's been, okay, like, you know, we hung in here, she's hung in here, she's starting to take what Hannah's telling her and apply it, and it's, it's just creating much more positive outcome for her and, you know, for for us for everyone. So, yeah, no, I mean, it's, trust is not my strong suit.Hannah Choi 11:02It's hard. It's hard to do.Kim 11:04Yeah. But, you know, I think that, you know, I, you and I had talked about the plan and what you were gonna focus on with her, and they were all the right things that she needed, as she's gone through the process. So it just made it easy to trust it. And then, you know, seeing it work, but it took a lot of time. I mean, I give you a lot of credit. I mean, this is a kid that, you know, did not come from traditional circumstances. And, you know, it just made everything far more challenging. And but she's, I mean, really just an amazing, in an amazing place right now. I mean, she is, you know, putting in extra effort, rather than the bare minimum. She is, you know, going above and beyond. She comes home, she does her homework before she does anything else. I don't have to ask, I don't even have to worry whether or not she's getting her work done. Because I know she is. And she is so much more confident now. Than where she was. I mean, it's, it's really, I mean, it's so incredible to see. And her grades have have come to a good place. And this year is 8th grade. It's really challenging.Hannah Choi 12:30And her school does not make school easy, though. Yeah, confidence is, I would say the one thing that has been the biggest change I've noticed in her and I remember when she was in fourth grade her saying to me, there's no point in getting excited about anything because it probably won't work out. And that just broke my heart. And now I see her excited about stuff even though she's so school is so boring. You know, of course, every kid every kid says yeah, it is. It's boring. Like work is boring for us. Right? Exactly. Yeah, I mean, not all the time. Yeah. But now I just like I remember she didn't ever want to handwrite anything but she also never wanted to type anything. And because she felt like she was too slow of a of a typer but she also felt like her handwriting was so poor. And so so that was there was always so much friction with anything that whenever she had to produce anything, and now she's like, bopping the keys with like, no problem. And her handwriting is gorgeous. And her notes are beautiful13:45They are! they're all color coded and highlighted and I mean she's got little little sticky notes in her books with notes in them it's unbelievable. Yeah.Hannah Choi 14:00She is such a good student it's incredible and she just uses all the all the tools and she's so organized you I don't know if you remember but when when she first I'm sure you do when she first started coaching she was very resistant to folders and oh yeah, no, it was more into like the shove method just like shove it into the backpack14:20Balls of paper in the backpack? Yeah, not no organization whatsoever. It was. Yeah, somewhat horrifying. Could you be that disorganized? Yeah. But now she has like an accordion folder with like everything neatly placed inside. It's it's a total 180 It reallyHannah Choi 14:44 I remember just talking about organization was really stressful for her. She would have really big emotions around changing her organizational style. And now she likes to talk about it. Yeah, yeah, off. So great. Well I love it. So, were there times where you? And I don't know, you can be honest with me, because I know how difficult it is as a parent to trust the people that we, you know, that we bring into our children's lives. But were there times where you where you questioned that? Did I make the right decision with coaching? Kim 15:19Yeah, I mean, yeah, of course, there's always like, a doubt, like, you know, I think we all want to hit the easy button and like, have things just magically change. And they didn't magically change it. It took a long time. And, you know, I, you know, I think we all want to see progress happen faster. But the, she's a child, children are children, and, you know, they're, they're not working at our pace they're working at at theirs, and it's very different. So, yeah, of course, you know, everyone wants things to happen faster, especially when you know, you're a parent. And, you know, it's not just Skyla I have her sister too, and trying to balance both of them and trying to get them up to speed and get them in a better place. So that they can be successful. You know, there were times where I was like, ah, is this working? Is it not? I don't know. But, you know, I think just hanging in there. And then, you know, continuing to see over time that progress. I mean, it really has, it does take time. It does, it's there's no immediate silver bullet to solve these things. You do have to hang in there. And, you know, but four years, and we've seen incredible progress fromHannah Choi 16:51Tremendous, I know. Yeah, you know, yeah. And I think that her story, at least for me, as a coach has been such a great example of looking for these, like, beautiful, small moments, where I see a shift, and I see oh, like she reacted in this tiny little bit different way. And it's like, okay, I'm making some progress. And it is, so it was so minuscule. Like, so tiny. But I saw that, and, and so those tiny little things became, in my, like, in my mind, and my heart became these, like, huge wins. And I, like, I know, typing in my portal notes or emailing you or texting you and being like, yes. Right. Like this thing happened. And it seems like such a small thing, but it's, I've been waiting two years for this or whatever.Kim 17:48Right? Yeah. No, I mean, it's, it's, it's those small, iterative steps and wins and, you know, changes in her mindset, or just being open to like trying a tool you suggest or, you know, thinking about something a different way, or, you know, it, it takes it takes time to get kids comfortable with that stuff. And, you know, I mean, clearly, you built a great rapport with her from early on. And I think, you know, building that trust with her, allowed a lot to happen, of course, right. Because that's, that's the first step in any process in any human interaction is, is building trust between the coach and the child.Hannah Choi 18:39Yeah, yeah, that yeah, that was my I mean, I could tell the, the second I met her, I thought, okay, like, this is, this is not going to be easy, but I was, I was just, I just fell in love with her that first day and I, I just was so excited to, to have the chance to, to, you know, to work with her and, yeah, it. I mean, I, I know, I've told you this 100 times, and I'll continue to tell you it but it's just such a gift for me. I'm so grateful for it. I am just so overwhelmed sometimes by how lucky I feel that I've had her in my life. And I know that I will, like even if our coaching our coach client relationship ends, I know that will stay close because I just I think that I just can't imagine not having her in my lifeKim 19:32is an amazing girl. And she's a really special child. I mean, she really is in so many ways. And you know, just kind of thoughtful and caring. I honestly she's, she's a gift to you and me.Hannah Choi 19:53Right, right. Yeah. So What would it present day Kim, tell tell Kim from 2015 or 2016, like when you first started, you know, thinking about adoption andKim 20:11yeah. You know, I think that it's, you know, I, I went into it, honestly, you know, adopting two children as a single parent, which is a challenge. And then also working quite a number of hours per week. So it, it's been a, it was a really hard adjustment for me early on, I have to admit, like really hard from, you know, spending 40 plus years of your life as a, essentially a single person, and then all of a sudden, there's two little beings in your home all the time.Hannah Choi 20:54And they've come from challenging situation. Kim 20:58That's right. Yeah. And, you know, it was, I mean, I would never change the circumstances for the world. Never. It was such an amazing, you know, I don't even know what the term to use for it, but just that we found each other, and that we came together as a family, and that they are both, you know, really doing well, and going to, you know, a great private school next year, I would say, do do it, go ahead and adopt those girls and try to make a positive influence on their lives and help them any way you can. So, I think that, yeah, I think that, you know, had I know, now how successful this would have been for, you know, or this has been for Skyla. It would have been so easy going into it, because I would have been like, okay, all right, it's gonna be a few years, I know exactly when this is all going to shake out and be better. But yeah, it was stressful. There's been stressful on the way but it's, it's happening. I mean, like, things are improving, and they're really, really thriving. So it's wonderful to see.Hannah Choi 22:28really is, it's, it's, I love your story I love I love everything. I don't, I don't want to think about what would have happened if you hadn't found them. And it's, and also for yourself to like, what a beautiful thing that you've gotten for yourself to?Kim 22:43Absolutely, ya know, by far I'm the I'm the person that's getting the most, I thinkHannah Choi 22:51and what are you looking forward to, for you and for them?Kim 22:55Ah, she's, I mean, well, so Skyla starts high school in the fall, I mean, like, I can't even like where did time go crazy, is crazy. And I'm excited for her to be, you know, in a school, it is going to be more challenging than where she has been. And, but I think, you know, she's up for the challenge now. And I think that she's going to do she's gonna do really well. And I think she's going to be surrounded by people that are motivated, and, you know, are going to push her maybe a bit more than where she is now. And I think that will be good for you know, not too much. Right? So but, but definitely a healthy push towards more academic kind of excelling more of an academic from an academic perspective. And, you know, the school also has a lot of sports, and art and theater. And so I really want to see her participate in a lot of those things as well because she loves her painting and she loves, you know, acting, she still threatens that she's gonna go for an audition and become an actress, we'll see.Hannah Choi 24:14I could just I could totally see it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.Kim 24:18So you know, I think that the school is going to offer a lot for her in terms of lots of different things academics, but also socially as well as other courses that I think will be will be great and then my goodness, I can't even think like, she'll be driving at some point. And then off to college. So it's, it's exciting. I think she has a really solid future in front of her and I'm really happy for the help that you've given us. Certainly through this process. I could not have done it. Honestly with without you would have been, Ah, you have so much patience? And I have almost none, so...Hannah Choi 25:07Well, you're doing something right, because it can't just be me. Yeah. Well, do you have any questions for me?Kim 25:19Right, let's see, what can I ask you? I know it was it was definitely walked into something that was unusual in terms of the circumstances, just given her background. Was it? Was it the hardest child you've ever had to work with?Hannah Choi 25:39No way. Although I don't know why me she definitely was very, it was very challenging. But she just kept coming back. Right. Like, like, even when we would have a frustrating session, and she would leave in tears. Or, like, if we had tech problems. It's, you know, and it didn't end well. When we met again, it was like, it never happened. And she was just back. You know, just back to her chip herself. I remember we would have corn parties. Like she would come on to a session if she hadn't eaten yet. It was just like a little dicey. And so I'd be like, alright, what can I get her to eat? And so, so we started this thing. And we still do it today, actually, where if, if like, she's eating something, I will ask her for some. And she gives it to me, like by putting it up to the camera. And we do it without even like, there's no laughter. Yeah, it is as if she is giving me the thing. And we have done this in sessions over the past four years, just the other day, she was eating Maltesers. And I was I love those. And I was like, Oh, can I can I have one? And she very seriously said, Sure, and picked it up and put it up to the camera, and I took it and ate it. And we've been doing that since I think since the first corn party where we both ate corn. I was like, I'm gonna just like get her to eat anything. Yeah, so I like ran upstairs and grabbed myself a bowl of frozen corn, just like eating frozen corn. Well, yeah. And I just, I don't know, I just felt like I said, I just fell for her right away. And I was just so happy to do whatever it took to, to get her to, you know, to do buy in to buy into it and to trust me. Yeah. And that I that I wasn't leaving. I'm not gonna leave. You can give me the hardest day and I'm not going to leave. I'm going to come back next week. Whether you want me to or not? Yes. And so maybe that maybe that is something that strengthened our relationship is that she recognized like that I wasn't gonna give up.Kim 28:03Yeah, most definitely. I mean, I, you know, clearly she came from, you know, a background where people did give up, you know, she got moved to different homes. You know, and I, it's funny, as we've talked, you know, she's admitted, like, I, you know, when you came and said you were going to adopt us. She's like, I didn't think like, this was going to be it for me. Like, I really didn't think this, that I was going to stay in one place. I thought I was gonna go somewhere else. And what a horrible I mean, what a horrible way to think but yes, she's stuck with me now. So28:51Yeah. And do you remember when the adoption was final? And we both notice, we noticed a really big difference.Kim 28:58That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.Hannah Choi 29:03Oh, yeah. Remember, like one session to the next. It was there was a big change with the adoption in between. That's right. Yeah. And she still has challenging days, right. Like there was we had a session a few months ago, where she just complained about school the entire time. And then the next session, she was like, Oh, look, I got I got 100 on this and I got 100 on that, and I'm gonna do this project. And so we just all have bad days, some days. Just really great at communicating how bad of a day it was.Kim 29:32That's right. Yes. No, she's she's very vocal on her bad days. Yeah.Hannah Choi 29:37Which is actually really good. Like talking through your stuff is important. Better than holding it in.Kim 29:43Absolutely. Yeah. What's What's the longest you've worked with a client?Hannah Choi 29:53Skyla Kim 29:54is it really? Wow. Wow. Yeah. You Okay.Hannah Choi 30:01Yeah, that's, that's wonderful. Yeah. And I'm so excited to go to her graduation, her eighth grade. She showed me a picture of the dress she's wearing. So oh, do I have to dress up? 30:15She's, she's got quite a dress for this. Yeah.Hannah Choi 30:22Cool. Well, I, you answered all my questions. Do you have anything else? Anything else you want to say? Or?30:30Like, how much time does it take to make meaningful change with with kids? Like, is it? I mean, it's been for years for us. But like, I can't imagine you can do it in six months, or a year or even two year, it has to be an extended period of time. Right.Hannah Choi 30:53My sister is also a coach for beyond booksmart. And she has a client she's been working with for six years. He's a senior in high school now. Yeah, it just, it takes a really long time. And I think part of it is just because change is hard. You know, even adults, like most of my clients are adult clients. And, and a lot of them come in thinking like, oh, I'll just do this for six, you know, six months. And you know, here, you know, a year and a half, two years later, they're still still getting a lot of benefit from it. But I think because your executive function skills are not finished developing, that part of your brain is not finished developing until you're in your mid 20s. So there's a lot of learning to be done. And kids who already have challenges in that area, it just makes it even harder. Yeah, yeah, it just takes a really long time. It really does. Especially when, you know, there's other stuff going on, you know, like, like, like, for example, like, schuyler's background, you know, and or just personality. Right. You know, there's, there's so much that ties into it, and then throw in a pandemic,Kim 31:59right. Oh, my God.Hannah Choi 32:01Right. That messed everything up!Kim 32:04Yeah, exactly. It's like two years of this. SoHannah Choi 32:10yeah, it's been really hard for most everybody. Almost everyone. Yeah,Kim 32:16yeah. Especially the kids. I mean, fortunately, I mean, she was able to be in school, the majority of the time, but yeah, it's still still hard. Or tough two years.Hannah Choi 32:32Yeah. Yeah. But I don't think that. I think that. I think that, yes, it's taken a long time for Skyla to make a lot of make change. But, but I don't think it's, that's like not, it's not unusual. And it's not It doesn't surprise me, what is the best thing about it is that you have been able to allow her to take her time to do it in in the time that that she needed. And that, you know that you know that she was you that you were in a situation that allowed her to, you know, to just take her time and be herself and find that for herself. And, and I really feel like because it was because we had the patients with her. And because we allowed her to learn that in her own way at her own speed. We met her where she was always right to me, we know that about her, you cannot force anything on her. You know, we just continually had to meet her where she was. But through that process, she's learned so much about herself, and she's learned what will work and we've learned what will work and what won't work. And so now, like, that's all really solid for her now. So like all of these things that she's learned about herself and strategies and tools and what's going to work and what's not going to work and what you've learned about her now. It's so solid in her it's so it's like become part of her because it was allowed to develop naturally. And it was allowed to develop in its own time. And so I think it'll, that that will, like serve her so well over the course of her life. Because it's she's learning them now in this, like formative years, you know, and that she wasn't forced to be anyone but herself. And and as hard as it was. We trusted her and we trusted the process that eventually she would figure it out. Yeah. Kim 34:33Yeah, it's been great. I mean, what a story. I Yeah. I was looking at our notes from like, the earlier sessions. And and sort of like after a year after two years after three years and just the different focus areas and the progress and you know, the good days the bad days, but Overall, she's she's just come so far.Hannah Choi 35:03I know, it's amazing. That's our story for today. Before I go, I wanted to share that just last week I took Skyla, her sister and my daughter out to lunch, I found myself just mesmerized by the beauty and the intelligence and sense of humor of these three girls. I'm so excited for their futures. And I don't know if I'll ever know how to put into words how lucky I feel to have met Skyla and been given the chance to become someone she trusts. So thank you, Kim, for trusting me. And thank you all for joining me today and taking time out of your day to listen. I really hope that you found something meaningful or inspiring in today's episode. I know for me, it was a really moving and special experience and I feel very fortunate to have been able to share it all with you. Be sure to check out the show notes for this episode on our website and subscribe to this podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools we mentioned. Thanks for listening

Changing habits is at the core of all personal transformations. However, as we all know, it can be really difficult to stay consistent and disciplined when trying to build new habits. Why is it so hard and how can you actually follow through on new habit goals?Habit tracking is the practice of choosing habits that you’d like to add to or remove from your life and keeping track of whether you do them or not. Listen to this week’s episode to learn about how tracking habits can help you. You’ll hear some ideas for how to build habit tracking into your life and will hopefully find inspiration to track some habits of your own!Bullet Journalswww.bulletjournal.com The original, by Ryder CarrollRiver Fox BuJo on Pinterest This is my daughter’s bullet journal Pinterest account.Little Coffee Fox Bullet Journal - Getting fancy with your bullet journalLittle Coffee Fox Minimalist Bullet Journal - Keeping it simpleHabit Tracking Articles for Further ReadingThe Ultimate Habit Tracker Guide: Why and How to Track Your Habits by James ClearHabit Tracker Ideas List - A very long list of things you can trackWhy You Should Be Tracking Your Habits and How To Do It from lifehacker.comHow long does it take to form a habit? The explanation of the data of the habit formation study I mention in the episodeHabit Tracking AppsThese were all recommended to me by people who like using them. I have only used Habit Loop myself (which I love). Habit List - for iPhonesStreaks - for iPhonesHabit Loop - for AndroidHabitica - for AndroidBooksAtomic Habits by James ClearHabit Stacking by SJ ScottReadings on Habit Building Strategies18 Tricks to Make New Habits Stick - A good list from Life HackHow to Build New Habits that Stick from Developing Good Habits website by SJ ScottHow to Build a New Habit: This is Your Strategy Guide - from James Clear’s websiteAnd, last but not least, here’s my Chocolate Banana Peanut Butter Smoothie Recipe!TranscriptHi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Today I'm diving into the topic of habit tracking. In my episode about managing our emotions around failure, I talked a little bit about thinking like a scientist. Well, habit tracking is an excellent way to put this idea into action. By the way, this episode is packed full of habit tracking ideas and suggestions, so you might want to pause me and grab a pen and paper to write down anything that inspires you. I'll wait. Okay, so what is habit tracking? You may have heard of it already. But just in case you haven't yet, habit tracking is a practice of choosing the habits that you'd like to add to or remove from your life and then keeping track of whether you do them or not. In today's episode, I'll share five ways that habit tracking can be beneficial, and then I'll explain five different methods of tracking your habits. Before I get started, I want to mention that habit tracking is just one way to support yourself while you're trying to build or break habits. In a future episode, I'll cover some more ideas for making habit building a little easier. If you're too excited to wait for that episode, check out the show notes for this episode. I've listed some useful resources in there for you. Okay, so let's talk about habit tracking and why we might want to do it. So you can use habit tracking to see your progress. Collecting data over a period of time, even a week can be helpful. But hopefully you can do it for longer. And then over time, you might start to see change happening. And this can be super helpful. And along with seeing progress, you might also notice trends in your data, you can then adjust how you approach that habit. For example, a few years ago, I wanted to reduce my sugar intake because of some health stuff I was dealing with. So I used a habit tracker. I noticed that I always seem to eat sweets on Saturdays, no matter how hard I tried not to I just always ended up eating them on Saturdays. So instead of beating myself up about it, I just said, "Okay, let's just eat a little sugar on Saturdays and see about eliminating it on the other days". And this really made a huge difference for me. I stopped feeling bad about eating sweets on Saturdays. And interestingly, looking forward to eating sweets on that day actually helped me eat less during the week. I think an overlooked but really important part of habit tracking is figuring out what habits aren't actually all that important to you in whatever season of life you're in. And I often talk with my clients about the power of the shoulds you know, the things that we feel like we should do. So sometimes, we might decide to track a habit that is something that we feel like we should do. I recently read an article about how great green smoothies are for you, right? You know what, they are tons of leafy greens and some kind of citrus or a banana all blended up. And I thought all right, okay, I should add a green smoothie to my morning routine. Yeah, I just couldn't make it stick. It's cool, whatever. So I don't start my day with a green smoothie. I do start it with a chocolate banana peanut butter one though. So anyway, if we repeatedly do not do the new habit, perhaps it's not the right time to introduce it into our lives. Again, this idea of failure being informative comes up. Failing to do these habits gives us a lot of info. So ask yourself, why aren't you doing them? Are they truly important to you? Okay, next up motivation. Habit trackers can be highly motivating for some people. Personally, I only find them really useful for the data that they provide. In fact, this data is what motivates me to actually remember to track them in the first place. But my teenage daughter loves doing the thing. So she can fill out the box in her pretty hand-drawn habit tracker that she has in her bullet journal. If you're like Hannah, what's a bullet journal? Just hold on a sec, and I'll explain them in a bit. Okay, next up, sometimes we need to build in a new habit because of a health reason, a change in diet like maybe we need to cut out morning coffee. Or maybe we've started taking new meds or doing exercises for physical therapy, we might want to use a habit tracker to reinforce the addition of these new things into our lives. We may even be feeling a little stressed about these new required habits. So a tracker might help us to remember to do them, which in turn will ease some of that stress.Okay, so hopefully I've convinced you of all the great reasons to track some habits. And now we have to figure out the best way to do it. Keep in mind that everything I recommend today can be modified to, you know, fit your own needs. I always encourage my coaching clients to take the tools that I teach them, and then tweak them until they work for their situation. If you're not sure which one to use, just try the one that kind of resonates with the most with you, and then approach it like an experiment. They might not work well for you at first, and that's totally okay. Right? Just see what part of it is working for you and what part isn't, and then change it up to suit your needs. Alright, so tracking tools. First up is that bullet journal that I mentioned earlier, the idea of bullet journaling was created by a guy called Ryder Carroll. And a bullet journal is simply a planner that you create to fit your own needs. And this customizable aspect of it is actually what I really love about them. Mine, it's very simple. It's just a plain notebook, I've got a few things in it, mostly just my weekly calendar and a meal planning page. My daughter, on the other hand, has a bullet journal and it's truly a work of art. She has her weekly calendar and an exercise tracker, she's got book lists and gratitude practice and a habit tracker. So you can add easily add a habit tracker to your bullet journal just like she did. If I went more into detail with how to use a bullet journal and how to track habits within one, I'd keep you here all day. And that's not what any of us wants. So be sure to check out the show notes for more bullet journal resources. And if you don't use a bullet journal already, I highly recommend checking them out. I've had a few clients that have had a lot of success using them. Okay, next on my list is spreadsheets. My sister Julia is the queen of tracking things with a spreadsheet. I envy the data that she's collected over the years. Well, I say that I envy it. But I don't actually envy it so much that I'm actually going to start using spreadsheets. But if spreadsheets are your thing, you can build one that tracks your habits or anything you want to collect data on. All right, Fitbits and other smartwatches. Fitbits can track your steps and other habits like exercise or how much water you drink. And there are apps that you can add to your Apple or your Android watch. You can check out the show notes for some suggestions for apps. I personally don't wear a watch. But I know that for the people that do they really love them. There are a ton of apps out there for both iPhones and Android phones that can make habit tracking easier. Something that I really like about the apps is that they have built in Notifications, and you can modify them as needed. And I personally found the notification super helpful to get me to do the actual habit. And if you are a parent, you might be familiar with the strategy of sticker charts. You know, grownups can use them too. I actually use this sticker chart when I'm training for a half marathon. I got this idea from my other sister, Maria. So I print out the training plan I'm going to use and then I put a sticker in each box after I complete that day's training challenge. And usually just covering the chart with stickers is rewarding enough for me. But sometimes I'll build like a small prize or reward into it for a little extra motivation. Talking about sticker charts reminds me of when my kids were little. And I always felt like I needed a sticker chart to help me remember to use my kids sticker charts. Anybody relate to that feeling? So this actually brings up a good point. It's all well and good to have this idea of tracking habits, right? So let's track them. But how can you actually remember to track them, especially when you're first starting out. So to help yourself, you basically just have to really support yourself, you have to build a really strong scaffold. To do this, you could set reminders on your phone, you could use the notification feature in the habit tracking app, you could put sticky notes around that remind you to track the thing. For example, if you're tracking how much water you drink, you could put a note right on your water bottle. Or if you're tracking exercise, you could put a sign up in the area of your home where you exercise. Or you could stick it in, you know with your stuff that you put in your gym bag. There's a million ways to do it. So get creative and see what works for you. It might take a bit for the habit of tracking habits to stick. But with good support, hopefully you'll find success.And like I've said before, and I'll say again, and again change takes time. And learning how to look for small wins can really help keep you motivated through this challenge of making change. And habit tracking is a great way to look for these wins. In fact, if you're just starting out with habit tracking, I encourage you to pick only one or two habits at first. Diving in and optimistically picking a whole bunch might be exciting and promising and a little bit crazy. But it's likely that it'll end up feeling like there are just too many habits to track, and you're a lot less likely to be successful with those new habits. So just pick a couple that you think are realistic, you know, realistic to add to your life right now and give it a shot. And as we know, habits can take a very long time to form or break. I think I read a study that said it takes on average 66 days. So like I said earlier, having a record of your progress over time, can help support that habit as you're building or breaking it. If you're working with a coach, you can ask them to support you as you track your progress. Maybe have them checking with you at the beginning of each session or during the week. Are you using the habit tracker that you chose? And if not, why? Maybe have a conversation with your coach to figure that out. And no worries if you don't have a coach, try and listing a friend or another trusted person, share your new habit tracking, experiment with them and ask them to hold you accountable. Maybe you guys could even track something together. My family loves creating Fitbit contests with the other people in my extended family who were Fitbits as well. You could create family sticker charts for family goals. Or you could hold yourself accountable by creating text chat groups of like minded people who are also trying to reach goals. So that's it for today. Wow. Who knew there was so much to say about habit tracking, I'd actually taken a break from tracking my own habits. But in writing this episode, I found a renewed zest for tracking habits. So I'm back on the wagon. I'm so glad you're here and you took time out of your day to listen, I really hope that you found something useful in this episode. Before I go, I wanted to share some listener feedback about my episode on failure. In that episode, I mentioned the commitments or goals that executive function coaching clients make after each session. And Neal, one of our coaches suggested that instead of saying they were commitments or goals we coaches give to our clients. Perhaps I could have said they were commitments and goals made with our clients. I love that this small change in prepositions makes such a huge difference in meaning. Thank you, Neil, for making this suggestion. And I completely agree. If you've subscribed to the podcast, you'll be getting an email with some resources related to today's episode on habit tracking. If you haven't subscribed yet, you can do so at our website, www dot beyond bookstart.com/podcast. And we send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools that we mentioned. Thanks for listening

Building on the theme of failure from episode one, I sat down with Jodi for this week's episode - the mom of a young adult who had serious Executive Functioning challenges during his transition to college that impacted his grades, mental health, and overall quality of life. He has since made an inspiring transformation working with an EF coach over this past year and is now doing remarkably well. This episode explores what the tumultuous process looked like in all its glorious imperfection from Jodi's perspective.Jodi is very open about her son’s challenges with Executive Functions, the pandemic, and the transition to college, and how all of these factors made life exceedingly stressful for them both as Jodi wrestled with wanting to help but not knowing what to do.Listen to this episode to hear Jodi’s inspirational story about how she and her son are thriving after what felt like a huge failure. Hopefully, if you or your child are struggling with your own Executive Functions, this episode will give you some inspiration that with hard work, time, and the right support, massive transformations are possible.Some readings and resources related to topics & themes that came up in my interview with Jodi:Resources for Parents with Children Who Have ADHDChild Mind Institute - Complete Guide to ADHDParenting a Child with ADHDAmerican Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry - ADHD Resource CenterTransition from High School to College or WorkCollege Readiness Checklist - from BBS Tools LibraryTransition to College Checklist - from FAME Main12 Steps for Easing the Transition to Work - from understood.orgAsking for Help4 Tips to Effectively Ask for Help—and Get a YesTeaching Students How to Ask for HelpBeyond BookSmart ResourcesOverwhelmed by College? Here's How to Regain Control (blog)How to Help Overwhelmed College Students (webinar)College Executive Function CoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.In the last episode, I covered the idea of failure and how it isn't actually failure. Many of our listeners are either executive function coaching clients or their parents, we know that both clients and parents of clients can feel like they're failing, both before they reach out for coaching and then even during coaching. But as we know, this isn't actually failing, right? It's just part of the process of finding what works. I wanted to explore this more and look at it from the perspective of someone who knows this feeling well. So I sat down with Jodi, she's a mom of a young adult who is working on improving his executive function skills. He's working with an executive function coach. And Jodi also spent some of her time talking with families who are interested in coaching for their own kiddos. So I'll let her tell you more about herself and share her unique perspective on brains and parenting and just share her inspirational story about coming back from what felt like a huge failure. And just a short note, before we dive into my conversation with Jodi, this is our first interview for this brand new podcast. And as you'll hear in the first few minutes, we're still working out some of the audio kinks. But we're not seeing this as a failure. Nope, it's been an excellent opportunity to learn how we can make it the best it can be. And it's just a little bit of a bumpy ride along the way. All right on to the show. Hi, Jodi, thanks so much for joining me today. Could you introduce yourself and share a little bit about your family's journey to executive function coaching?Jodi 01:58Yeah. So I'm Jodi. I'm a mom of young while a freshman/sophomore son in college. And I have a junior daughter in college and my daughter actually has multiple sclerosis, which is an autoimmune disorder that attacks your brain or spinal cord. So she got diagnosed at 16. So she was just young in high school when she got that. She was really high high executive functioning. I'm I feel like the only thing I can say I'm a genius at is executive functioning. And maybe empathy. It but um, and she was the same, but now she has MS. So she's she's struggled with a lot of those challenges. She's not the person who's with Beyond BookSmart, interestingly enough. In my career I work as a nurse and actually in an insurance company, but I work with our brain spinal cord injuries. So I spent the last 10 or 11 years working with very closely with brain injuries from their original right acute out of the injury and through the rehab and, you know, throughout their life of the injury until they're, you know, outside of our claim and workman's comp. So I have a lot of knowledge about how brains work differently. And what happens when brains don't work the way they used to work. And I have a son who has was diagnosed with ADHD when he was very little and the biggest reason why he was diagnosed with it was because he had a lot of trouble managing his emotions, so he had a lot of emotional dysregulation. I used to always say like, you can't take them off the train tracks, you gotta let them know, we're gonna be switching tracks, give him a little time advance notice. And then obviously, the typical ADHD stuff where, you know, they're, they're distracted, they don't focus, they seem like they're not listening. Um, so, so my son who has the ADHD diagnosis is the one who is in. We're just about I think a year somewhere around our year anniversary here with I think we're just maybe a month shy of that with Beyond BookSmart in through his life when he was little, it was always a challenge. I did bring him to a neuropsychologist who when he was maybe in second grade, and she said, "Wow, he needs some help". You know, it was it was pretty it was pretty significant not you know, very significant and so we did a lot with that we tried to avoid medications we weren't able to avoid medications and you know, he he grew up you got to better better hand handle with his with his emotions and regulating emotions and, but still all of the typical challenges that we see with our ADHD kids and learning and today's learning environment, which is so different than my learning environment I got to play when we were in lower grades, you know, they don't get to play anymore. No. Oh, so um, so he did he, you know, we did alright in our school system were very remote. We're kind of out in the woods in Western Massachusetts and we have a regional school and great teachers and great education. His teachers were really committed to him and understanding his differences and helping us with that. So the school system was really great. But when he hit high school, he was done with meds. He didn't like the way they made him feel. So all of a sudden, we're in a situation where the meds were helping him and he never learned any tools. So we did a lot of tripping through high school as far as like, falling behind getting ahead, falling behind getting ahead. He had a 504 plan, where you know, and I would constantly have team meetings, I would collect the team meetings right, and sit down and say, why can't we all work together? I can't, I can't bring it home if I don't know what it is that I'm trying to you know, do it at home. And so we got through it, but he ended up being a on top of all this he in in, you know, as we see a lot, very smart intellectual kid and... COVID. Senior year. So he wouldn't know what's happening all sudden, everybody's home, he lost prom, he lost senior trip, he lost graduation, he lost senior track, you know, just, and he lost his friends, which he's always had a hard time with friends. And he finally got this really great group that just really melded probably his junior year. And then he lost that group of friends. So we went into video gaming, because that's where everybody was, right? We couldn't see anybody. So we went into video gaming, he had zero structure. Time of day came and went, No, no, nobody had structured school. Nobody knew what to do. There wasn't planned like it is now. They're a little bit better at that remote teaching. So we kind of lost him. So we already had those struggles, and then I kind of lost him. So hoping that college would be better, he dove right into college into robotic engineering college. Remote robotic engineering. Yeah, no. Well, and they didn't really know. Hannah Choi 07:30Yeah, they were figuring it out, too. Jodi 07:33Yeah. Yeah, they really had a good grasp already, you know, on that kind of situation. But obviously switching to everybody being remote. He was very isolated. So he went to his dorm. And he didn't, he had a roommate who was never there. And so he sat in his room alone all day and all night and had classes that he never attended, because they were on his computer. And, you know, so that's sort of when he failed every single class. Or they do quarters there. So weHannah Choi 08:05That's fast. Those quarters are fast. My grad school, I went to UC Santa Barbara in California and its quarters there. It was, it was Yeah, but is it nine weeks or something goes by fast?Jodi 08:16It's um, it's they I think it's seven, seven and a half week much. Yeah. reclass is seven and a half week. Yes. Four days a week. Yeah,Hannah Choi 08:25I know. You basically start and then all of a sudden it's midterms. Yes.Jodi 08:29Yeah. Yeah. And you know, by midterms, he still hasn't done any of his homework because it's only two weeks in right and so it all catch up. Don't worry about it. It's all good and not so much not so much. Yeah. So he is and he wouldn't take help and our relationship started to get I'm really close with my kids. Both of them and our relationship was really getting hurt because I was having to you know, I was having to be the I can't I can't regulate his college and manage him at college and be mom without him just eating me you know so it was it was really really tough and in high school I was looking for executive functioning coaches in the area right and ever thought to that remote one option Hannah Choi 09:17right, that was before COVID Before we thought that way Yeah, we didn't thinkJodi 09:21that way at all everything is better in person better in person and although it is better in person remote gives us some really fantastic opportunity.Hannah Choi 09:28 Look at you and I, we're having this conversation. Jodi 09:30Yeah, I know! We're having conversation. We aren't that far away but we still aren't next door. So so you know earlier there was really no executive functioning coaches out here the school didn't know anybody and you know, he got he went to like executive functioning specialty therapists but it's very different. You know, your coach.Hannah Choi 09:51It's not the same thing. Yeah.Jodi 09:53So so the school actually said Beyond BookSmart is not anything on our list. We can't tell you how it goes. But what I do know is we have kids doing. So that's the only one I've heard of, if you want to give them a call and give it a try. So that's how we got cool. That's a little history on me. 10:11Yeah, I'm so glad for for him and for you and your relationship that they knew about that they knew about executive function coaching? Because it's not it's, I mean, first of all, that people even know what executive functions are. That's, that's really common. When, when people like, if it ever comes up, like, Oh, what do you do for work? And then I tell them, they nine times out of 10, I think that I work with executives. And so they're like, Jodi 10:39Oh, I would have never thought that.Hannah Choi 10:42And so and so then I'm like, well, some coaches work with executives, because some executives need executive function coaching. But the majority of our clients don't are not executives. So yeah, so that's wonderful that they that they, that they knew about it, and were able to connect to Jodi 11:01Well, his his school is really, the school is full of a whole bunch of kids on the spectrum. I mean, in I guess you maybe you probably see that a lot of engineering schools. Yeah. But they, they have a whole department that works with these kids for this reason. And so I thought that were going to be okay, because of them. But then realized, I think maybe we would have been if it wasn't for COVID. But there was it COVID just changed, right, everybody, everybody, you know, they just, it just blew up. Yeah, anything that was difficult was soHannah Choi 11:37that's the story that I personally have heard from so many people. And I know a lot of my colleagues have heard and just other people that I've talked to, I was just talking to a friend of mine recently. And she was just saying, like, she felt like she had everything together. And then when COVID hit, she realized she actually didn't, it's so much of our success is built is supported by the structures that we have, right? And so when those structures are there, and they're solid, and they're working and and we can kind of like relax, and so then then it's like, okay, then I don't have to worry about all that other stuff. So now I can, I can, you know, I can, like the parts, the parts that are challenging for me are not as challenging because I'd have to worry about all those other things. And so then when you do have to worry about them, and you're you've never managed them like that before. So like, you don't know what to do. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's the story that I'm hearing. And I think that a lot of us coaches are hearing from pretty much everyone.Jodi 12:37I'm even seeing it. I mean, like I say, and I know what executive functioning is, right? Because I work with brain injuries. So yeah, what happens when everybody falls on their head, they hit their frontal lobe and boom, that's, you know, sort of, that's where it goes. But, um, so yeah, so they, they, they knew of it. I mean, that's, I spoke to them with those terms. And they were like, Yeah, you know, this place we hear, you know, it's in Boston, whatever. And so and so here we are. But now it's just and even some of the parents that I talked to now, because between the his school, I'm on the parent Facebook site on his school, so between his school and then doing a little bit of liason, so I guess, liaison work type thing here, you know, just talking to other parents to let them know what my experience is. It's just there are a lot of questions still about... Well, it's, you know, remote and, you know, we're already doing so much on a computer. Do you feel like the remote can be successful? I feel like somebody needs to sit next to my kid. And I'm like, these, these these kids have been staring at screens for three years.Hannah Choi 13:47It's nothing new for them. No,Jodi 13:50they actually don't know how to sit down next to a person.Hannah Choi 13:52Haha, yeah! "What do you doing so close to me?"Jodi 13:56Yeah, which is actually kind of interesting even saying that because COVID You know, I think we find kids on the spectrum are not necessarily kids with ADHD but my son is definitely has his his levels of socially awkwardness. I mean, there are there he has a hard time reading social cues, but he's himself is very social once it becomes integrated, very chatty and social. But he was really hard to engage in, initially with as parents, we're reaching out on Facebook together saying, "my kids are struggling, my kids suffering, my kids not passing, my kids depressed", you know, and trying to get our kids together, which was like, herding ants. You know, like, I mean, when you know, there's fruit all over the place. There's like it possible, you know, and they're like, oh, yeah, sure. Okay. Well, yeah, my I'll reach out later, later, like later later. And then finally, somehow, I'm pretty aggressive. So you know, I definitely helicoptered that one. And you know, there were a handful of us parents who did and we sort of forced them to get together a little bit, a few of them. And what did they talk about? Are their moms! Great! We worked so hard to get them together. But now, now I'm you know, there's still that conversation is still going on. This is happening with COVID or without COVID. And so I'm always speaking up and saying, Look, you know, send me a private message and I'll let you know what's going on for me. So I've spoken to a lot of parents at the school and actually, some of them directed here, but also just some saying, "Look, I'll have my kid reach out to you". And I'll tell you, in I can say it's, it has a it's a direct effect from the coaching that he's been receiving. As much as we're doing this coaching for a lot of executive functioning skills, he is getting so much more confident in himself and aware of like, who he is, and that he's different in different is okay, okay. So he's reaching out to these kids. He's like, "Oh, yeah, no problem, Mom". And then I'm like, hey, you know, gently, did you ever reach out to the kid? He's like, "Oh, yeah, we reached out, we spoke, we talked, we're on Discord together. And I've met him for dinner." And I'm like,Hannah Choi 16:19When I, when I think about working with my clients, my dream for them. And I'm sure like all other coaches feel this way, or anyone that works with someone in this kind of capacity is that is that when you're done working with them, they then take what they've learned, and bring it out into the world and share it and help other people. And what a great example of that!Jodi 16:40Well, let me tell you another one, which is this is really like jumping ahead in in sort of missing the point here. Well, I guess not missing a point, right. We're here to talk. But jumping out of the executive functioning, which I'm sure that people who are listening want to hear, right. But taking a pause on that, since it's kind of going in this direction. He one of the parents, I was speaking to who was trying to get a feel for you know, talking to me about you know, what's it like to be to have a kid in this and, you know, a lot of parents are, you know, we have to sign up and for so many months, and you're worried about that, right? You know, we can deal with it. And, you know, my biggest thing is, it takes six, nine, twelve months to create a behavior. So you got to commit for six months. It's not going to work at three. It's probably not going to work at six. we're gonna say, you know, if you're here, it's because somebody's hit bottom. But with all that being said, the dad was like, would your son mind talking to my son, because, you know, I can't convince him that this is the thing. I'm willing to take the jump, but he needs to take the jump. And I'm like, Yeah, sure. never talked to my son about it. Yeah sure! He'll be home this weekend. So, you know, I go into his room. And I'm like, and he goes, Mom, what? He's like, what? And so I asked him if he would talk to him. He's like, Yeah, sure you have his phone number is a discord. So I give him his phone number. As I'm talking to him. Now, you're a coach, you've got to know and anybody listening who has a parent, or maybe is even in it themselves? Perseveration. Like, wait till later, is there a common denominator? And he's like, sure picks up his phone to (makes dialing sound) "What should I say?" I say something. And he's like, ah, that doesn't really sound like me since this thing. So then he shows it to me. He's like, What do you think about this? I'm like, just hit send. Hit Send. The kid responds right back 15 minutes later, they're on the phone. And, and, and I and I had to share this with his coach, because I think this is kind of exactly what you're saying. Like, you're hoping that not only are they going to benefit from this and find a better way to find themselves, their fit their way to fit and be successful in this crazy world they've been dumped into because we got to slowly progress right with, we didn't have executive functioning, we slowly learned the technology. They just woke up. We're born into the technology they didn't get to like, figure it out. So he says he's talking to this kid for at least 45 minutes and you know, pacing all over the house and stuttering through his words and trying to get his thoughts out and all that. And eventually he gets rolling. And he is the stuff he's saying. He's like, look, he's like, it's hard work. It's really it sucks. It sucks in the beginning. And I was at rock bottom. So I knew I had to do it because I there was nowhere else to go. And I didn't want to and I lied to my mom and I lied to my coach and and he's like, it's kind of hard to lie to him because they're on your computer and they're looking at what's going on. And he's like, You got to share your stuff. If you're not going to share your stuff. It's not even going to work like this is what he's saying. You know, and there's pauses the other kids like asking questions and uh huh. You know, and then he's like, you know, going on and on and on. Had to have been 45 minutes, I was talking to this kid, and I'm in the living room in tears. Yeah, I would want to cry the stuff the coach and I have been saying, you know, he's coming out of his mouth, he's like, You have to be really, I don't think he used the word transparent. But he basically said, you know, you have to be transparent. If you lie, you're only hurting yourself. Because guess what they're gonna find out, your parents are paying for it, they're gonna be mad, the coach is gonna tell your parents, you know, you've got to let them talk to your parents. And he's like, look, my coach talks to my mom. So now my mom doesn't bother me. So let your coach talk to your dad. Let your coach talk to your mom. Yeah. You know, he's like, let them all talk. And but he's, but it was the coolest piece about it was he was like, it sounds like you really should do it. He's like, it's gonna be really hard work. He goes, but you know, this, this is this is it's getting me through on passing. I'm learning. And what was one of the things he had said, I can't. He was talking about. You know, that? Oh, one of the other pieces he was saying. So the whole lying part. I mean, we literally just went back through that, right? He goes, it's gonna feel like you're not making any progress. Wow. Like, I feel like sometimes why am I wasting my time, I should just quit. I'm not making any progress. And then he's like, and then I think about where I was, and I pass this many classes, I failed some classes. I didn't lie, and I got really ahead, then I got excited. And then I fell behind. And he's like, like, and then the other thing he said, which I could not believe, is, "you have to be honest with yourself". I was like, is this kid eading from the book, you know, he's like, You have to be honest for yourself. And you have to ask for help. Right? In his coach has been like, and we both been like "Coby, until you have to ask for help." Guess what, you can't do it. Just acknowledge that this is your your he hates he won't use the word pattern anymore, because he has changed. And to him, he doesn't have the same patterns, even though looks that way to me. So but it's just like listening to him say all the things that his coach and I have been saying over and over and over again, coming out of his mouth. I want him to keep talking to his kids. Because the more he says it right, the more it becomes real for him. And he holds up the phone. And he was so pumped. He said, I think he's gonna sign up. I feel like he's gonna get help, like, I'm getting help. And it feels so good not to have all of that. He was also alone, because I don't get it. I have executive functioning. I've really good executive functioning. That makes no sense to me. You know, so Wow, that was that was a huge off the track.Hannah Choi 23:04Oh, I love it, though. It makes me think about like, if you were to, if you were to to check in with how you felt like when you heard that conversation, and think about back to when he first started and how you felt when he first started coaching. Like, at like, if you if if present day Jodi could tell past Jodi, like beginning of coaching Jodi, what would you tell yourself?Jodi 23:34I would say you're right to stick with it, you know, go the beaten path, because when we started, it was painful. He was depressed. And he has a therapist now. And he has his coach. And any a support group at school, like all these kids are now a support group to each other. And it was so painful because he started he ended up dropping out the fourth quarter, he had to withdraw from school. So he didn't get suspended for a year because he hadn't passed any classes. And so he was just he couldn't have been more bottom and he looked like, like, he looked like a cancer patient, the circles under his eyes, you know? And he said, he said "I need, I think I need help". And I said and so we did some research. We had a couple of things that we were looking at in this from you know, the school had not recommended you guys won't give me your name not solely recommended. And and so he was at rock bottom and he owned that he was at rock bottom before he just still kept thinking he was going to be able to do it. He was going to be able to catch up. He was going to be able to figure it out. And so we started we started a little bit he started a little bit of coaching really got to know his coach and they hit it off like good so well. Yeah. And we didn't need to go on to a second one or anything. It was a fantastically perfect match and still remains that way. But so he took a summer class so so the the last quarter he just went up, he worked like regular job worked and worked with the coach and we just did sort of life skills type stuff. They did, he did with them. And then we started a summer class. So summer classes were seven weeks. Okay. And it was community college, but it was still seven weeks and it was one class. One class seven weeks history. All writing okay. Oh, no, take that back. It wasn't history. It was psychology. All writing. I think it's his favorite classes ever taken. He hates writing any any doesn't like to look at himself. Right? It was incredible. You got an A in that class, right. So that was awesome. And then we roll into, but it was a great start. And then in the middle, he was crashing and burning. And then from that crash and burn trying to catch back up and getting an A, the teacher was so great with him, which is surprisingly, because the teacher really appeared to be really narcissistic. It was it the way he wrote the way he spoke the way his syllabus was written. It was very, it was like, I was like, this is interesting, but he loved my like the retrospect he just was like looking at himself and all of it. Yeah. So but the painful part was, as we went through those really, as we got that we did the second semester in the summer with two classes. I remember what they were. But he ended up getting a B and a C in those classes. And that that was that's where today's God, I wish I could go back and just like tap myself on the shoulder and give myself a hug and say, this is a right stick with it. Because I wasn't sleeping. He wasn't sleeping. He was it was it was painfully hard for him. His brain hurt, he couldn't sleep, he had headaches. I mean, it is a complete roto root of the way they function. You know, it's it's, it was it was so hard. It was so hard to watch. And I find that a lot of the parents that I'm talking to their kids are the earliest they don't think that their kids need that much help. But he needed that much help. And he's he was working through depression, but it was he has zero executive functioning. He doesn't understand time, how long will take you to get this done? Not even how long does it take you to go grocery store, which he's gone to 100,000 times now. He doesn't know how to organize himself. He doesn't know where to start. He doesn't know how to what comes first what comes second, none of it. So it was a lot to learn and implement and get graded on all the same time. Yeah, that is in he again. He just looked like a very, very ill person. And I knew I knew he had to stick with it. And but it was very painful. And so for any parents who do go into this in and see that, stick with it, support your kid, tell him they're doing a great job, he would consistently take one step forward, and two steps backwards. And one step forward. And one set, you know, it was like, it almost seemed like he was never getting any for traction. But then he did. Yeah. You know,Hannah Choi 28:32so what, like, for you, how did you? How did you handle that? Like how, like, what are strategies that you use for yourself? To when you like when you saw him take, you know, like one step forward and two steps back orJodi 28:50I didn't? I didn't always handle it. Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean,Hannah Choi 28:55it's like, as a coach, it is. It's, it is so hard when you see that, but they're not our children. I mean, sometimes they feel like they're our children, but they're not. And I know like for myself when I see a client who's you know, struggling like that. It's really hard. And, and, and it requires so much patience. And it requires like so much looking for these tiny little wins and recognizing like, oh, wait, okay, so we're like not doing well in all these other areas. But this one little tiny nugget of gold has been found. So like, what, what what did you like for yourself to get through thatJodi 29:40you handed in one out of three homeworks in a week? That's better than zero and a three homeworks I mean, that's what we were celebrating. Yeah. And he got up and went to class, online live and didn't watch the recording once this week. I was like, This is what like yeah, Ah, it was it, it was so hard. But for in for me, I didn't do it graciously. So any parents out there who aren't I would, I would handle it horribly in in fall into my own patterns, which is, which, you know, we talked about before we started recording, I was watching this, listening to this other podcast one day and I was crying because I thought, oh my god, I'm the worst parent in the world, I have alienated my child, trying to make him like me. And treating them like he was just a bad kid who didn't want wasn't motivated or, you know, was lazy, they get these lazy labels, they don't have the skill. So. So I went back and forth just like he did, I took two steps forward, one step backwards and one step forward and half step backwards, you know, I would support him one day, and the next day, I would get frustrated and be like, how could you not have had it in your homework? And so that's where the coach came in.Hannah Choi 31:00Oh, and so how did how did that change it for you.Jodi 31:05So I still communicated with I communicate with a coach. And so once he established a relationship with my son, and he established a relationship with me, and I was very clear with him, you need to call me out, you need to call me out. And it doesn't matter if feelings get hurt, I'm not gonna go tattling to, you know, to anybody to say, your main we want a new coach said you need to call me out, I need you to point to me and say back off back off, not your role. And he did. And he actually had a very long phone call with me where I was in tears. And he was just very honest. And I appreciated it. And I think without really he knew he could do that. I would imagine that you guys can't do that with everybody. 31:54No, yeah, and my experience actually, my I mostly work with college and adults. And, and the parents of the kids that I have worked with, have in general not been involved. And so it, but what you said is so important how like your like your coach, the relationship between the coach, and the person being coached is so important. But the network, the support network of the person being coached, in a lot of situations is a big part of it. And so you have a trust and rapport with your coach with your child's coach, or, you know, or whoever. I mean, it could be your partner's coach, like if you're an adult, if you're, you know, if you're an adult and you have a partner, the partner might, you know, also need to be get some reassurance from the coach. So, right, it's right, it depending on the needs of the people in the support network of the person being coached. So that's wonderful that you are able to get that.Jodi 32:55Yeah, so he's been fantastic. I didn't really think about that. And I know some of the parents that I've talked to, they're just like, I don't really know what my son does, but I just found out that he's not passing any of his classes. And I thought to myself, Oh, yeah. Oh, you know, but then that parents like, Oh my God, how could you be so into your kids stuff? Like back off, you know? So,Hannah Choi 33:15And there's no right way to do it? And right, and what you said, like about listening to the podcast, and then crying and feeling like, you know, what am I doing? Like, how much of parenting is this guilt? Right? This like, guilt that we put on ourselves? No matter what, we're not doing it right. I mean, I don't know about you, but I that's something that I struggle with as a parent often. And yeah, and it's it's...Jodi 33:39You just hope in the end, you didn't screw them up too bad.Hannah Choi 33:45Meanwhile, here we all are here we all are going to therapy. Yeah, yeah. Jodi 33:53But the coach, I am, I am, again, super close with my kids. And in you know, you could label it helicopter parenting, I would say I am not the Nancy helicopter parent, but I am definitely in there trying to recognize where they need help and helping them acknowledge that they have deficits and that I'm here to give them resources. Like with my daughter, she needed resources with coaching and soccer and she didn't really need we needed medical resources when she got diagnosed, and my son has been, you know, social environments. What kind of sport can we get him into where he doesn't feel like he's getting bullied and I created a robotics program at the high school so that he could get into robotics and ran that, you know, so that's the kind of involvement I have. I try not to like overly, you know, manage your schedule, all that it's definitely what they want. And then I help them find the resources and move in that direction, but very emotionally involved with my kids and our coach is just incredible. He knows that he can just, say "this is your role, mom. You know, I talked to Coby today you've overstepped" You need to support them, you need to support them in this way. Yeah, this is the best way to support them. Not this stuff. Don't ask any of these questions ever, ever, ever, ever? Yeah, these are your questions that you can ask, this is your role in the supporting. And so I think that we've gotten there really gotten there, I, I'm very backed off, and I'm just my role is to watch his phone to make sure he goes to classes. Now that's my role.Hannah Choi 35:24There you go, that's great. Jodi 35:26His role is to have his fingers in his work, know what he's doing, you know, criticize, or whatever it is that you guys do when they don't do the right thing and help to redirect them and all that, but it's, it's, um, it's really, it's just, in the parents that I talked to, some of them are just like, well, we don't need that much. I'm like, then you don't doesn't matter. They're giving me what we need. They're gonna give you anyway. Yeah, yeah. And one of the things I tell the parents, when I talk to them is like, Look, your contacts are there to hear your honest, whatever it might be. And if you're a helicopter parent, and you're doing too much your contacts are gonna say, this might be why this isn't working, it might actually be the coach, we might need to work with you a little bit, you know, or they, you might, it might not be a good match, and you don't like the communication and they'll change that. That's the great thing about you guys is you're like if there's something wrong, yeah, you'll make it work.Hannah Choi 36:19 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think something that you said earlier made me think about a conversation I was just having with one of my adult clients who were talking about trust, and how, how so much of going through executive function coaching is about trust and about trusting yourself, and about trusting your coach, and just trusting the process. And like you said, in the very beginning, and which is something that I feel like I say, like a broken record is it takes a really long time. And so trusting all of the parts of it yourself and your coach and, and the process and, and the tools that you try and everything, it's and that's such a huge part of it. And ah, I forgot what I was going to say - where I was going with that. But anyway, it's a big deal. Jodi 36:45I have one parent who at at my son's school, who I directed to you guys who has, I don't know where she's at right now. But she had gone to the matching coach matching process. And she called me and she goes, this is how it went for me. Is this, is this how it went for you? And I said, Well, no, but when you're in that meeting, did you say, Hey, I feel like you glazed over A, B and C? And that's really important to me? Well, no, I didn't know if I could37:39You gotta speak up!37:39Yeah, be honest, the kids have to be honest, the moms have to be honest. Like all of that. Let them know how you feel. This isn't personal. At all. Yeah, if you if you don't like your contact, let let somebody know that you need to change. And this is why or talk to your contact about why you feel you're not in touch. These people are all about matching and functioning and making it work and trust, right? There's no trust, even if they're they did nothing wrong. It's just not the right match or there isn't trust. So they need to find a new person that there will be trust with and it might not have anything to do with either. Yeah. So she's like, okay, all right. I'm gonna call it that. That's better than not calling back and just walking away from itHannah Choi 38:30You know, everything you're saying is just making me so glad that we're that we decided to do this podcast because it, it's it, it's showing me like how valuable hearing someone else's story is, and how that right there is such a huge part of asking for help, like what your son said, you know, like, I think I need some help. And in and reaching out and asking, like, can you tell me your story so that I can figure out like, where mine fits in, you know, and what my needs are and everything. So that's wonderful. Thanks for sharing all that. Jodi 39:04Yeah, of course. Hannah Choi 39:07I love I, I was thinking about something else that you said. And you were saying, you are really involved with your kids. And but I was thinking about how you have you, you really have had to be since the beginning with your son being diagnosed so early with ADHD. And then with your daughter becoming having such high, you know, intense medical needs. You can't you as a parent of a child with you know, those medically fragile, you you need to be involved. You know, you can't. You don't have the choice of, of being hands off. So, so it doesn't surprise me that you continue to be like that, because that's just how you have always parented and thank goodness you are because your son knew that he could go to you and say that Like, I need help, and that you recognized it that you saw it in him. And you realize, like, something's off here.Jodi 40:08Yeah, yeah. Well, that was worried before we even started, you know, so but yeah, like, you know, part of part of my career and in what I do, even on the side, you know, I've had a couple of friends, one whose son ended up fell down the stairs, in his 20s, you know, fell down the stairs or got a brain injury. And, you know, the system right now, especially with COVID, you know, and another friend who's, whose good friend was dying of cancer. So we have these two situations where they're in the hospital system, and nobody's giving them any information. And they think that that's okay. So it's, it's sort of the same thing, teaching them working with them as as a case manager type liaison to help get their answers and move things in the right direction, get the person with cancer discharged home, get the kid, you know, the right care, and, you know, communicate the home needs and rehab and things like that, and just educating the family. Do that with my kids, like we all. That's, that's how I roll. And that's how they roll. And everything is very, everything's very open in our family in regards to anything going on. There's there's no issue, you know, my kids will tell anybody who puts them on a podcast. So go ahead and put my son on a podcast, my mom needs to butt out. I'm just like, Look, guys, you can't go from having all these years of needing me and asking me for help, to all the sudden "Thanks a lot, we got this!" I'm like, Look, I need a transition.Hannah Choi 41:41Yeah, I need that too!Jodi 41:44I need to transition out as well. For myself, I actually have been working with a life coach, to balance myself with all the stuff going on with my kids don't my kids growing up not needing me that I'm getting all the resources, my daughter is taking over all of her own medical care. My son has a coach who's taking care of him and a therapist. So just finding that balance and finding me because me has just been helping these kids with all these needs. Yeah, who are you want to yours? Right? Yeah. And so I'm like, Well, what do I do if I'm not helping you if I'm not up in your business, and so when they're like, You got to get out of our business. So the coach is my life coach has been great. She's, she's got me to start reading again. She had me create a reading nook in my house and bedroom that's like my no phone, no TV, no, nothing. Mom's you know, and even my son will come in and he'll be like, Oh, you're already reading. Hannah Choi 42:41Wonderful, and how important that self care is. Right? And when we are caught up in all the busyness of, of the challenges of life. Yeah, it's it's that's like the first thing that we that I think a lot of people like, oh, and it's probably actually the last thing we should like. Right. But it's so hard. It's so hard to prioritize that. That's wonderful. I'm so happy for you. So great.Jodi 43:07Thanks. We're all a work in progress.Hannah Choi 43:09It's true. We really are. And, and I'm, I am very, I personally am very open talking about the things that I have challenges with. And I think that when you can be open like that, and recognize like, no one is perfect. And everyone needs help. In whatever form it is. It's it's so freeing. It's so freeing to just be like, Yeah, this is me.Jodi 43:35This is me. I'm not perfect. I need help, too. And we're all different. And that's okay.Hannah Choi 43:41We need to be different. Yeah, otherwise, be weird.Jodi 43:46Yeah, who don't want to be the same drone walking around?Hannah Choi 43:49Yeah. That's so great. Um, let me see. So what are you looking forward to like, for your son for yourself? For like, you know, I mean, obviously, you are thinking about yourself in the future, because you, you know, you got yourself a life coach, and you're reading again, and you know, and you're taking time for yourself, but what are you looking for forward, forward to?Jodi 44:17I, you know, I my, my big thing is just when, and I just started sort of looking at like, what am I you know, what does my life look like? And I think this happens with everybody who's who's empty nesting even. But for for my son and for my daughter, I mean, she is really moving in a place where she is she's really taking control of herself recognizing her deficits understanding that she can't move as fast as everybody else and she's really finding finding her place and she's gonna have challenges her whole life even if she didn't have MS. You know, so she's really going into she's really gotten herself sort of in that direction now, which is exciting. So I'm just looking forward to when my son Coby is, is doing that same thing. And he's moving in that direction. Yeah. And I think the first glimpse of it was was this past week listening to him talk to that other kid. I was like, Oh, my God, it's happening. Hannah Choi 45:15It's happening. It's really happening. It's happening.Jodi 45:17Yeah. And there's no particular like, check the box. Okay, it's been done. It's been done, I can move on. Yeah, but there they, I didn't think that it would ever be happening with him. He's just always just so I'm, is his father is a lot similar. And his father has to have a - We're divorced. But we've been divorced for a long time. So and and, he really has to have a wife and a secretary to be successful. Right? He needs the wife for the regular life stuff, and kids and everything else. And he needs the Secretary, because of the executive functioning, right? So the wife not. And so my thing is, I don't want my son to need a wife. And that's a big reason why we I would have to say, we've probably got divorced because for me, it felt like he was just lazy and wouldn't do anything. And I was doing everything right. Yeah, he needs that wife for that. And then he's the secretary. So I want my son to not need that. I want him to be able to give what he has to give to somebody without them feeling like they're, they're giving everything right, you know, and he's taking and so and I see him doing that.Hannah Choi 46:27I was just gonna say he's on his way to that. Jodi 46:30Already started that. Yeah. That's what I'm, that's what I want. And it's going there. So we're sticking we are sticking with it. I was just gonna say and he, I mean, he even has plans as much as I think one of the things that you guys always say is the point is not to stay on forever, right? The point is not to stay an executive coach with this person forever. It's to teach them the tools and let them go free. And that takes a while and parents will ask me how long does that take? Like? It's just like, my brain injuries. Everyone's different. But it's gonna take over a year. I really don't have a whole lot. Yeah, yeah. Like my son's always already like, okay, so when I've got this going, I still want to work with you on public speaking, I still want to work with you on better healthy lifestyles and activities. And so he's already planning. When I'm perfect. This is what we're gonna work on next.Hannah Choi 47:25So he's really thinking into the future for himself, too, which is so that's so beautiful. Yeah, I love that. How wonderful. Yeah, I have, like I mentioned before, when before we started recording, I'm my I'm coming up on four years with one of my clients, and she's in eighth grade. Now, I started working with her when she was in fourth grade. And with my, the session we had on Monday, it was just like the entire session was this gift of all of these things that that I have been working with her on over the years. And she just like, did all the things. Like she tried something new, and she was gonna ask your teacher for help. And she, she, like, breathe. She like we're working on breathing before, like during taking a test because she rushes through tests. And she told me, I breathed before every question. And she said, you know, that was the easiest science test I've ever taken. I'm like, Oh my gosh, yeah. And it's, I mean, yeah, it's taken a long time for us to get there. But it's just so wonderful seeing her taking these skills that she's learning. And she's already thinking about, well, how can I apply them in the future? And that he's doing that too. It's just48:40You've like, just turned a leaf. It's like you, and there's possible you'll roll back or whatever? Hannah Choi 48:46Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Jodi 48:47And how lucky she is to have had you for four years at that age. 48:51How lucky am I? Oh, my gosh. It's just she is lodged in my heart, man. She's just she's just such an amazing person. I'm actually going to be interviewing her mom in a couple of weeks. And it's just yeah, it's it's beautiful to see as a coach, and I imagine that your son's coach has has had a similar emotional experience watching him, you know, just to go through what he's gone through. And how long has I can't remember if you said this before, but how long have they been coaching together?Jodi 49:25I think we're just we're we're close to a year where I think we're just under a year because he it was after he made it through three quarters. Right. So finals are this week of the third quarter. So that took me a couple of weeks to find you guys so so we're coming very close to just a year just to your he's got a lot of work ahead of him. Yeah. So you know and is Coach isn't going anywhere. I'm not gonna let him go on and Yeah, yeah, they have such a respect. You know, like there's there's such a respect I'm just I, what we've seen in a year how hard, it's so hard for him still, but I just can't say this enough where he's come already, you know, you could look at him on a big global and be like, he hasn't really gotten anywhere. But that's just not true. He's off academic probation, he didn't get suspended. He, you know, like those, that's a big deal. Yeah.Hannah Choi 50:19And, you know, you mentioned in the beginning confidence and how, like, that comes up all the time, parents will say, you know, like, I just want my child to feel more confident. And I think I think feeling better about your own executive function skills makes you just just just naturally you feel more confident. Like I know, for myself, like I told you in the beginning, I have terrible memory. And and I used to not use a planner, or anything, I wouldn't, I would just like occasionally write have to do no to do lists and write stuff down. But I would just try to rely on my terrible memory. And yeah, it was like, not a great decision.51:00That would stress me out so much. I have to write everything down.Hannah Choi 51:03Yeah, now I'm like obsessively checking my planner. But when I went, I guess when I was in grad school, like when I was in college in high school and grad school, then I wrote I did I kept a planner during then. But then I think I just thought, like, Oh, I'm not in school anymore. So I don't have to have a planner anymore. But, but my confidence, just like went down the toilet. Because I just started thinking, Oh, well, I'm just like, not a good friend. And I'm not a good partner, because I'm forgetting these things. And then I realized, wait, I just need to write them down. And then I'm not gonna forget them anymore. And, and it, it gave me my confidence back. And so for kids who, especially for kids who have challenges in many executive function areas, you can you can imagine how that would erode your confidence pretty darn quick.Jodi 51:53You're a failure every minute of the day. Yeah, no matter what you do, every minute of the day, he was a failure. That's what I had me crying when I was listening to other podcasts. Yeah, he was basically a failure constantly. And then he started lying. Because, right. He's failing. And so it gets you off his back for totally. Yeah. Hannah Choi 52:10You know, it's a protective a protective action. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. And, and like he said, You can't lie. That's so wonderful. So he went from lying to saying, like, you can't lie. Yeah, that's great. Not doesn't mean he's still not going to. And this is a kid who used to never be able to lie. He had the worst face. Everybody could tell, you know, he got good at it as he got further into high school. And it was a skill. But yeah, I mean, not to say he's not going to do it. But I'm just like, Oh, my God, keep the kids coming for him to talk to because the more he says this out, yes, the more he'll stop before he does it. Because it's, you know, it's being repeated. And it's being shared. And it's, what if that kid calls him back later? Because he said, you have my number anyway. I Yeah. And if it's a year from now, give me a call if you need me. What's he gonna say? I don't lie to my coach the whole year. No, I Yeah. I lied to you, too. You know, just kidding. Yeah, I think, I think, like when I think about my client that I've been working with for four years, and I think about the messages that I've given to her over the years, and it's taken a really long time for those to sink in. And I think like, like how you said that you want that you hope that he, you know, continues to have those conversations with those kids, and continues to say that, because I think whether we tell ourselves the same message over and over again, or someone else tells it like someone that we trust, and that we that doesn't sound like nagging or whatever, that eventually it does sink in, and it does, you know, it you like, like she said to me, because I've always said to her, you know, where we're just, you know, if you can do these things, it will make your life easier, you know, things won't be so hard. And, and we've, you know, we've been saying that for I've been saying that for years to her. And she said to me on Monday night, while school is still boring, but it's so much easier. Oh, yeah.Jodi 54:15That is like, that is like the moment where you just celebrate.Hannah Choi 54:19Yeah, and you'd but I think just you have to hear it. You have to hear it from yourself. And you have to hear it from the people around you that you trust again and again. And I think that's kind of why coaching takes so long is because it just takes a long time for those message for you to like truly believe those messages. And then once you believe them, you have to put actions with them.Jodi 54:40Right? Right. Once you're like wait, it works. Now you have to make that intention happen over and over.54:46Yeah, and now he's got all this great evidence that he can do things. And so when he does slide back, which he will I mean, we all do you know, like even you and executive function Master, I'm sure there are times where you're like, Oh, I really screwed that up. You know? Oh, yeah, yeah, we're notJodi 55:07Because all the things you don't prioritize, like, whatever. And you know, afterwards you're like, I knew better. Yeah, I knew better. But in the moment, it felt easier.Hannah Choi 55:17Yeah, I'm so glad that's just such a wonderful story. Thank you so much for sharing today and for sharing with the other parents, I'm sure that you have, you know, made such a difference in, like, if you think about if you can change one parent or not change one parent, but give one parent the confidence to hook their kid up with a coach. And then, and then that kid then has the success that their son is experiencing? And then he then goes on and talks to someone else. Like, that's wonderful. Like, how many ripples that we create? 55:54So yeah, so many ripples. Yeah, yeah, in, in that whole point is just parents get definitely some of the ones I've been talking to. And you've obviously probably talked to them too, like, some of the timeline is really a focus for some of them. And I'm like,Hannah Choi 56:09Yeah, and it's hard. I mean, it's expensive. It's, you know, it's definitely not like a, but, you know, I just said to someone the other day, actually a friend of mine, who was who is interested in, in coaching, and, you know, we were talking about how it's, it's actually it's an investment, it is very expensive, but it's an investment that will not stop paying off when you're done it, you know, it will continue to pay off. I mean, I know myself just like, being a coach, like I have, I don't have great executive function skills, but I have I have been able to, you know, I know, like a ton of strategies, I know what works for me. And, and I continue to see, like, how challenging it is to keep them keep up with it. But how, in doing in doing it, and in improving my own executive function skills, how it has such a positive impact on all aspects of my life. And it's just so great.Jodi 57:10So yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I and him talking to the kids. I mean, I just can't, like, you're right. It's the Pay It Forward, just keeps going and keeps going. And if one parent joins and sticks with it, and does it, and the financial piece of it, is it I'm a single mom in, in, my son goes to a private engineering school. And we don't get any financial aid. Well, like I he gets loans. I happen to make just enough money, that we don't get to get any financial aid.57:45Yeah, so you're like, right in between? 57:47Yeah, exactly. So you know, it's, it's, it's a struggle to pay it. But the reality is, you know, my daughter's treatment is like, $300,000, twice a year. And it's covered by insurance, right? Yeah. But if it wasn't covered by insurance, I would be in debt up to my ears, because she can't be your brain can't be decompensating, she's 22 years old. So you know, I feel the same about my son, you know, some for a period of time, it was a huge struggle. And sometimes I get caught up and I, the coach, might his coach knows that the extra time is always approved. He never would have used extra time with my son and it's always on like, you need extra day you need to, it's always approved. So you know, for me, there is no dollar amount I could put on my child and you can't always say that, you know, you can only come up with so much money, right? Right. Yep. But it is expensive. But I if you can make ends meet and make it happen, it's worth it. In the end, lots of time, sometimes lots of pain, lots of patience and lots of money, but it will always keep paying it forward for your kid or for yourself, always.Hannah Choi 59:08So that's it for today. I'm so glad you're here and you took time out of your day to listen, I really hope that you found something useful and something that resonated with you and Jodi's story. If you've subscribed to the podcast, you'll be getting an email with some resources related to today's episode. If you haven't subscribed yet, you can do so at our website, www dot beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We send out an email after every episode with links to the resources and tools I mentioned. Thanks for listening

“I have not failed. I’ve just found 10,000 ways that won’t work.” - Thomas EdisonSome of my favorite readings on the topics I covered in today’s episode on managing failure. Reframing Failure as a Success- Permission to Feel by Marc Brackett, PhD- How Reframing Your Failures Will Actually Bring Success from LifeHackSelf-Talk- Third Person Self-Talk Is An Effective Way To Reduce Anxiety And Regulate Emotions- 4 Ways to Stop Beating Yourself Up, Once and For AllThinking Like a ScientistAtomic Habits by James ClearWhat Are You Measuring in Your Life?7 Habits That Can Help You Think Like a ScientistTranscriptHi, everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins, you'll experience as you change your life through improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. And today we're asking the question, how can we manage our feelings when we think we failed. So as you heard in the intro, I'm going to talk about failure today. Failure is something I think we can all say we've experienced. And as you'll see, in today's episode, the main message I want you to take away from this is that when you try something new, and it doesn't work out the way you expected or wanted to, you're not failing, you have not failed. If you try something in your EF coaching journey, and it doesn't work for you, you haven't failed, your coach hasn't failed. If you try something that I suggest in this podcast, and it doesn't work for you, you haven't failed. And the same goes for me. Creating this podcast is a risk, right? I'm taking a chance that I will fail to make something that is useful for people. But if I say something that you don't like, or you try something and it doesn't work for you, I haven't failed. I've just found an opportunity to try to find something else that might work. Of course, this totally sounds Pollyanna ish, right? It's way easier said than done. If everything we tried worked, or we all felt totally fine with failure. I wouldn't be here talking about this today. EF coaches, therapists we they wouldn't have jobs. We'd all be on some tropical island drinking pina coladas and getting our feet massaged. Wait a second. Okay, nevermind. Sorry. That's just my dream. Okay, back to reality, talking about failure. Okay, so what's the definition of failure? If you look online, or in a dictionary, you'll find something along the lines of a lack of success, or the inability to meet an expectation. So this definition might be the same for everyone. But how failure feels is going to be different. And as EF coaches, we often find that many people, when they first start on their coaching journey, are already feeling stressed about failing. We noticed a strong connection between failure and executive function challenges. Maybe we've labeled ourselves or maybe our children have been labeled as disorganized, or forgetful or bad at planning. But the way that I see it, is that you or your child just hasn't found the strategy that works best yet. So if you're in coaching right now, or actually, if you're just a human being, you might already be feeling sensitive to the idea of failing. And maybe that's why you decided to listen to me today about talk about failure. So I'm going to share some ideas for managing this so called failure, as we always say, in coaching, small steps lead to big changes. So please don't feel any pressure to like, dive right into any of these strategies. Maybe just try one, or even just part of one, or maybe just think about it, write it down somewhere, tell someone you're thinking about it. I'm really not asking for a big commitment at all, just hear me out and maybe give something a shot in whatever way like feels right to you right now. There are a ton of different ways to manage how we react to failure. And I really don't want to overwhelm you. That's not what I'm here for. So I've chosen three to cover today than those are reframing your failure as a success, self talk, and thinking like a scientist, these three strategies are kind of all interconnected. And trying one will often naturally just involve one or both of the others. So I'll do my best to explain each one. And like I just said, you can try them out and see what sticks. Okay, so first up reframing. So you may have heard the quote by Thomas Edison, he said, I have not failed, I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. So instead of seeing failure as a lack of success, like the dictionary says, try to see it as that you successfully found a way that doesn't work. So last week, I was working with an adult client of mine who has a strategy that he uses to manage his anxiety about the week to come. So on Sunday night, he takes some time to look over and plan for the upcoming week. He has a bullet journal. So he writes down his appointments and his classes and for the work for his job. And last week, he didn't do this. He got busy, and he just decided that he wasn't going to do it. And as his coach, I was glad that he hadn't done it. And so we did some reflection in our session. We meet Monday mornings, so it was good timing. But we did some reflection and saw how and he saw how effective that Sunday night planning actually is. So So technically, this was a failure, right? He did not meet his expectation of Sunday night planning, but not doing it was actually super informative for him. So if we can change our view to see these failures as actually highly valuable, it can be so beneficial. It's hard work. I'm not saying it's easy, it is hard work to do this. But if you can try it, you might end up actually end up like being more open to new ideas than you ever thought you would be. So get excited when it fails. I kind of think there's almost more value in discovering what doesn't work than what does. I believe that we learn more about ourselves. And we're really forced to think creatively, right? The strategies that we end up using after we failed are more solid, because they're built from your response to what didn't work, a strategy that you try and works on the first time, I don't think is as rock solid, because you haven't encountered any variables that will test it. So failing, while trying new strategies in the end, I think makes it more durable system that can survive long term. That being said, if you do find something that works for you, on your first try, that's awesome is so great. Just know that it might not always be there for you, it might not always work, just depending on what's going on in your life. And that's totally okay. I really like to think that these strategies that we know work for us but aren't currently working for us, are just patiently waiting. They're waiting for us when we're ready to go back to them. So keep that in mind. All right, so next up self talk. So you can combine the reframing strategy that I just covered with self talk, and self talk, is the thoughts or the speech that we direct towards ourselves. So, you know, I know you know what this is when you talk to yourself either out loud or in your head. So and it can be positive and motivational? Like, yes, I did this, I can do this. I'm great at this. Or it can end up being negative. Oh, why did I choose that? Oh, I'm so stupid. So there are some strategies for managing this one that surprised me as being actually super useful for myself. And I really hope you guys try this, because I was really surprised at how well it worked for me, is talking to myself and the third person. And they've done research on this. And they found that it's actually super effective, it helps put a little distance between what you're saying and yourself. And it kind of separates out some of the emotions that are tied up in that self talk. And so for myself, and my own experience, I find that like motivational self talk is way more effective when I refer to myself as a third person, when I'm motivating myself with self talk. So for example, I'm a runner, and I'm not a fast runner. And when I'm trying to get myself going, I used to say I can do this, I can keep going and I recently changed it to Hannah, you can do this, Hannah, you can keep going. And I realized it's kind of like someone's on the sidelines, like on the sidewalk watching the race. And they're calling that out to me. And it just feels more motivating than me just telling myself that. So give it a shot, see what you think. I also find that it can help cut down on negative self talk. So like if I say to myself, ah, you know, why did I make that stupid decision or whatever. If I had said to me, if I say to myself, Hannah, why did you make that stupid decision, I realized I would never see that to another human being, you know, I would never use that word towards them. And I wouldn't ever talk like that with with someone else. So referring to myself in the third person has really cut back on negative self talk. So naming how you feel in your self talk can also be really helpful. So, you know, saying, I'm feeling very angry right now. Or Hannah, I think you're feeling very angry right now. So give it a shot, email me or send me a message and tell me what you think. All right, next up, thinking like a scientist. This is one of my favorite strategies, and I really love working on this with my clients. So approaching something new by thinking like a scientist and approaching the new thing like an experiment. It lowers the stakes, it can be kind of fun. We know experiments often fail. All the things that have been invented in the world didn't magically work the first time. So these failures led the scientists to figure out what might work next time, it gives it gave them really useful information. So if we think like this, when we're trying new things, it can help us develop really great strong strategies. Another coach that I work with has this strategy that she uses with her clients when they're setting their weekly commitments. So if you're not familiar with executive function coaching with Beyond BookSmart, we have weekly commitments that we give our clients. So these are like a goal that they're working on for the week. Instead of calling it a weekly commitment, she calls it a weekly experiment, which like I said before, lowers the stakes, makes it feel less, makes it feel just less serious. So trying something new is really important, right? So we have to get brave to try the new thing. But I believe the most important thing, the most valuable thing that we can do after we try the new thing is to reflect on it after you try. So when scientists run experiments, they don't just run the experiment, and then run it again. They ask questions. Why ask why get curious? Why did this happen? How did it feel? Did you notice anything? What worked about it? Most importantly, what didn't work about it. So those are the three that I'm covering today, as you'll hear me say, over and over again, in pretty much every episode, that change is super hard, it takes a long time. And it's going to be filled with many of these so called failures. So to manage this, it can help to accept that it takes time, it can help to reframe these failures as a positive thing. And also reach out for help, whether it's from your executive function Coach, your friend, their mom on the playground, after school, your running buddy, whoever you know, will be there for you can be really helpful. If you do have a coach, that is a great person to support you through these new changes, of course, these new strategies that you're trying, it's really nice to have someone acknowledge your effort, you have someone going through the journey with you, it's also having that outside observer and that person is holding space for you, in this judgment free zone, have a coaching session, you know, they're not going to get upset with you. If you try something and it doesn't work, they're going to be excited for you. So take advantage of your coach, take advantage of the person in your life that you have that can support you, you know, as you learn and grow and find what works for you and discover what doesn't work for you. And then through that, find out what does. I really hope that you found something useful in today's episode, I am now going to listen back on it and probably find a bunch of things I wish I had explained more clearly. Or I'll remember another idea that I should have included, but I'm not going to beat myself up about it. And if I do, I'm going to talk about it in third person. And I'm gonna write down those ideas that I forgot and I'll be sure to include them in a future episode. So that's it for today. I'm so glad you're here and that you took time out of your day to listen. Be sure to check out the show notes for each episode on our website and subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools that we mentioned. Thanks for listening

TranscriptHello, and welcome everybody to the very first episode of Focus Forward, executive function podcast. My name is Hannah Choi, and I am so glad to be your host as we embark on this journey of executive function improvement together. Before we dive into what this podcast is all about, I thought you might want to know a little bit about who the heck you're listening to. I am an executive function coach for Beyond BookSmart. And I have been coaching people since 2017. I live in Connecticut with my family. And if I'm not coaching, you'll probably either find me at my sewing machine or doing something fun outside. If you're listening to this, you might already know the term executive function. But just in case you're not familiar with it, or you want a little refresher, I'll explain it briefly. Our executive functions are these mental skills that we use to get through each day, with greater or less success depending on where our strengths and challenges lie. For example, I'm awesome at time management and prioritizing, but my memory is horrible. Guys, it's really bad. My husband, on the other hand, has no idea what time it is ever, or how long anything will take. But he is way more organized than anyone else I know. Luckily, we make a really good pair. Executive function is a bit of a mouthful, so we usually call it EF for short. So when you hear me refer to it as EF, you'll know what I mean. So about the podcasts, some episodes will be a quick bite, a small introduction to a topic related to executive functions. I'll offer some suggestions for strategies, maybe something you can try in your own life if you're feeling up to it. Other episodes will be more of a deep dive into habits and behaviors and the nature of transformative thinking. I'll interview some parents whose children have gone through or are currently working with an executive function coach, I'll chat with college and adult clients who have a coach still or who have graduated from EF coaching. And I'll check in with them and see how they're doing. I'll ask some executive function experts to talk about their own experiences and share what works for them. Some of you may be working with an executive function coach yourself. And some of you may be the parent or guardian of a young person in coaching. Or maybe you just stumbled across this podcast and you're wondering what the heck executive functions are. Whatever situation you're in, listen to these episodes to pick up tips, strategies and more support for you or your child's executive function skill development journey. Something I've been working on myself is getting better at asking for help, and being open to new ideas. So as hard as it has been for me to seek help, I do have to say that my life is richer for it. So kudos to you for listening, for being open to new ideas and asking for help in whatever form that is for you. If you get anything out of these podcasts, I hope that it's that you remember that change is really, really hard. And it can take a really, really long time. Being gentle with yourself, and your child can be a really helpful place to start. We're all just doing our best right? Having a coach for some support is an effective way to make change in your life. But you can do this even if you're working on improving your executive function skills without a coach. Consider what your priorities and your goals are. Find strategies that resonate with you and work on them consistently and thoughtfully. Personally, I am super excited to be hosting this podcast. Just because I'm an EF coach does not mean I have stellar executive functions. I have to work daily to support my own EF challenges. So I am super excited to see what I'm going to learn on this podcast journey. And this is a podcast for everybody. Whether you're part of the Beyond book smart family or not, I am just so glad you're here and you're taking time out of your day to listen, thank you. Be sure to check out the show notes for each episode on our website, and subscribe at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools that we mentioned. Thanks for listening everybody. Bye