Could our inability to agree be holding us back from achieving meaningful social progress? What if AI could help us "fight better,” not by winning arguments but by resolving conflicts in ways that benefit our communities, businesses, and relationships? Flank’s innovative technology offers just that: a smarter, more empathetic approach to conflict resolution that could transform how we engage with one another. Today, we’re joined by Flank founder, CJ Tayeh, a human rights lawyer turned growth marketer turned social innovator. With a mission to address inequalities and power imbalances, especially around money, she explains how Flank’s AI companion acts as a mediator to foster trust and communication. We explore the different user experiences Flank serves, the careful research and development that went into its creation, and how joining Flank’s community can revolutionize conflict resolution. CJ also shares the challenges the startup faces, the role of interaction design in addressing them, and why high-quality data is crucial for effective AI-driven solutions. Don’t miss this fascinating conversation with serial innovator, CJ Tayeh! Key Points From This Episode: An overview of CJ’s journey into the emerging AI startup space. How growing up in a high-conflict family has informed her work as a social innovator. The problem Flank is focused on and how it aims to solve that problem with AI. Perspectives on conflict resolution and the impact of joining Flank’s community. How Flank’s AI companion acts as a mediator to foster communication and trust. Different kinds of user experiences that Flank aims to cater to. The amount of time, effort, and care that went into research and development. Challenges that Flank faces and how interaction design can address them. Why machine learning models are only as good as the data you train them with. Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Flank (https://flankdigital.org/) CJ Tayeh on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-tayeh/) CJ Tayeh on X (https://x.com/oheycj) Will Larry on X (https://x.com/will23larry) Will Larry on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-larry/) Victoria Guido on X (https://x.com/victori_ousg) Victoria Guido on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/victorialguido/) Victoria Guido Email (thoughtbot.social@vguido) thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com) thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/) thoughtbot on X (https://x.com/thoughtbot) Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/) Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email ([email protected]) Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot)

What happens when competition goes from being a driver of success to a source of division and exclusion? In today’s episode, Chad is joined by Dr. Justin Key, Founder of Black Theorem Consulting, to unpack societal divisions driven by social and economic status. Dr. Key is an accomplished consultant, speaker, and thought leader with expertise in helping organizations achieve growth and innovation through data-driven strategies. He is the founder of Black Theorem Consulting, a firm specializing in harnessing the power of diversity and technology to solve complex business challenges. In our conversation, we unpack today’s topic through the lens of the products and services developers bring to market. We discuss the hyper-competitive nature of society, the impacts of toxic competition, real-world examples of rigid and fluid drivers of division, and why we should not be afraid to discuss race. Explore how digital products and services can drive change on a global scale, how designers and developers can be a part of that change, and why developers need to check their biases when building digital technology. He shares his motivation for starting Black Theorem Consulting, what the company focuses on, and how it is helping drive change. He also shares how he stays motivated, the types of industries Black Theorem Consulting serves, and how you can contribute to a better world. Join us as we untangle systemic societal problems and how to reflect the world you serve in your product or service with Dr. Justin Key! Key Points From This Episode: Learn how social and economic status divides society and creates division. Discover how the impacts of exclusion compound into larger societal problems. Find out the difference between healthy and unhealthy competition. Uncover the common misconceptions about power and wealth in society. Hear how societal divisions have played a role in the decline of mental health. Explore how the societal structure of America compares to other countries. Find out why race cannot be ignored when discussing social divisions. Understand the significance of considering race in discussions about social division. Positive ways digital products and services can bridge the gap and drive change. Ways technology creates obstacles between different socio-economic groups. Steps developers can take to ensure that technology is inclusive and accessible. Background about Black Theorem Consulting and the services it provides. How inclusion and equity apply to developers and the development process. Final takeaways and how to find out more about Black Theorem and Dr. Key. Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Dr. Justin Key (https://www.justindkey.com/) Dr. Justin Key on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/justindkey/) Dr. Justin Key on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@JustinKey) Black Theorem Consulting (https://www.blacktheorem.com/) Gracie's Corner (www.youtube.com/@graciescorner) Chad Pytel on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/cpytel/) Chad Pytel on Mastodon (https://thoughtbot.social/@cpytel) Will Larry on X (https://x.com/will23larry) Will Larry on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-larry/) Victoria Guido on X (https://x.com/victori_ousg) Victoria Guido on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/victorialguido/) Victoria Guido Email (thoughtbot.social@vguido) thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com) thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/) thoughtbot on X (https://x.com/thoughtbot) Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/) Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email ([email protected]) Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot)

Since its inception in 2017, Sema has been improving outcomes for users, companies, and developers by providing automated tools to assess code. During this episode, we are joined by Sema Founder and CEO, Matt Van Itallie. Matt discusses five reasons why you should know how much generative AI is used in your code, from the capacity to increase the quantity, quality, and maintainability to intellectual property risk. These also include exit risks. Next, we explore how this is detected, how it can be solved, and the advantages of looking at code. Next, we explore the origins of Sema and how Matt sourced his co-founders, consider his thoughts on open source, and why it matters to know how much generative AI is used in your code. Hear advice on where to begin, how much to prioritize precision, and why it is imperative to make generative AI your own. Tune in today to hear all this and more. Key Points From This Episode: Introducing Sema CEO and Founder Matt Van Itallie. How the work is distributed among different target customers: companies, financial and strategic buyers. Why Sema is language agnostic and what it does instead. Matt’s belief that the fundamental health of a software product depends on the team. Understanding key person risk and the concept of golden handcuffs. How Matt’s background set him up to easily understand the world of coding. Why the combination of manual implementation and automation via Sema is most effective. The process behind turning the idea into a product with the University of Michigan and a Founder from AngelList. Why he does not recommend using his approach. The single biggest focus: code inspection and due diligence. Using open source code and the risks involved. Five sets of reasons why it matters to know how much generative AI is used in your code. How this is detected and how it can be solved. Advice on where to begin, how precise to be, and more. Leveraging the expertise of Co-Founder Brendan Cody-Kenny to build Sema. Why it is imperative to make generative AI your own. Free advisory AI counsels that Matt and Sema have set up. 
 Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Matt Van Itallie on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/mvi/) Matt Van Itallie on X (https://x.com/vanitallie_matt) Matt Van Itallie Email ([email protected]) Sema (https://semasoftware.com/ai-code-monitor) University of Michigan (https://umich.edu/) AngelList (https://www.angellist.com/) CoPilot (https://copilot.microsoft.com/) Chad Pytel on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/cpytel/) Will Larry on X (https://x.com/will23larry) Will Larry on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-larry/) Victoria Guido on X (https://x.com/victori_ousg) Victoria Guido on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/victorialguido/) Victoria Guido Email (thoughtbot.social@vguido) thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com) thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/) thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/) Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email ([email protected]) Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot)

What if diagnosing complex joint disorders could be as precise and personalized as a fingerprint? Today, Will sits down with Nazgol Tavabi and Mohammadreza Movahhedi to discuss their journey of transforming cutting-edge research into a revolutionary AI-powered platform for diagnosing joint disorders. Nazgol and Mohammadreza are the co-founders of BonePixel, a healthcare startup focused on using AI and big data for the diagnosis and treatment planning of joint disorders. In our conversation, we unpack the origins of BonePixel, the challenges of building a healthcare startup, and how they are leveraging AI to make patient-specific treatment planning more accurate and efficient. Explore how its data-driven process facilitates decision-making for surgeons, how they were able to commercialize the software, and the positive impact it is making on patients’ lives. They share details about BonePixel’s current state of development, the regulatory hurdles, and their surgeon-centric approach to software development. We discuss the complexities of securing funding and their approach to fostering a healthy company culture. Gain insights into how they make their software inclusive, the ethical aspects of BonePixels development, why human involvement is crucial, and more. Join us to learn how BonePixel is transforming orthopedic care and pushing the boundaries of what’s possible with AI with Nazgol Tavabi and Mohammadreza Movahhedi! Key Points From This Episode: Background about the development of BonePixel’s innovative software. Learn about BonePixel and how it leverages data to improve decision-making. Hear about BonePixel’s research origins at Harvard Medical School. How Harvard Medical School is facilitating the commercialization of BonePixel. Uncover the role that machine learning and AI play in BonePixel’s software. Find out how their collaborators have acted as data sources for their models. They share details about upcoming features and software additions. Discover the core values of BonePixel that are driving its development. What got them interested in applying their research skills in healthcare. Explore the ethical considerations that need to be taken into account. Why human involvement during BonePixels implementation is vital. Hear their opinion on regulating the development of AI-based technologies. Lessons from their careers, final takeaways, and how to get in contact with them. Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: BonePixel (https://www.bonepixel.com/) Nazgol Tavabi on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nazgoltavabi/) Mohammadreza Movahhedi on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/mohammadreza-movahhedi-phd-5aa652145/) Harvard Medical School (https://hms.harvard.edu/) Boston Children's Hospital (https://www.childrenshospital.org/) VirtualHip (https://virtualhip.childrenshospital.org/) Will Larry on X (https://x.com/will23larry) Will Larry on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-larry/) thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com) thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/) thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/) Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email (mailto:[email protected]) Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot)

Is it time to rethink how we approach hiring? The traditional recruitment process often fails to capture the true potential of candidates, relying heavily on outdated methods like résumés and generic job descriptions. In this episode, Will sits down with Brian Glover, Co-founder and CEO of Previewed, to unpack the revolutionary interplay between technology and the recruitment sector. Previewed aims to revolutionize how job seekers connect with potential employers by allowing them to showcase their skills and experiences in a more personalized and impactful way. It leverages cutting-edge technology to create a platform that helps candidates stand out in a competitive job market, ensuring that everyone has a fair shot at landing their dream job. In our conversation, we discuss how the Previewed platform creates an immersive, streamlined, and intelligent solution for recruiters and candidates. Learn about the innovative technology behind Previewed’s platform and how it is revolutionizing the traditional recruitment landscape. Discover the inspiration behind Previewed, its approach to career life-cycle, and how it empowers the candidate. We unpack the company’s skill-based assessment method, the ‘gamification’ of recruitment tools, how Previewed’s platform helps with retention, identifying gaps in a candidate’s skills, and much more. Join us as we explore where AI meets talent acquisition and how it turns purpose into a career with Brian Glover. Tune in now! Key Points From This Episode: How he uses prayer and meditation to keep him grounded as an entrepreneur. Overcoming the mental hurdles of being a founder and business owner. Previewed’s platform and how it leverages AI to enhance the recruitment process. Issues in the traditional job search and hiring process that Previewed solves. Discover why aligning a candidate’s job description with their purpose is so vital. Reasons for Previewed’s skill-based method and how it assesses candidates. The benefits of Previewed’s skill-based approach for candidates and recruiters. Brian shares how his hustler background growing up led him to become an entrepreneur. Hear about Previewed’s roots and the many challenges he overcame starting it. Recommendations for budding entrepreneurs and what Brian is currently focusing on. Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Brian Glover on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-glover-startupfounder/) Previewed (https://www.previewed.careers) Will Larry on X (https://x.com/will23larry) Will Larry on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-larry/) Victoria Guido on X (https://x.com/victori_ousg) Victoria Guido on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/victorialguido/) thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com) thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/) thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/) Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email ([email protected]) Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot)

Company culture plays a fundamental role in the success of your organization. Unfortunately, it’s not always clear what methods will lead to optimal outcomes. Top research shows an alarming gap between a company’s stated culture and what employees report about their experience working there. But what if one could harness the power of AI to close this gap? Today on the show, we’re joined by Elie Rashbass, CEO & Co-founder at ScultureAI, a startup developing innovative solutions that shape organizational culture from the ground up. He tells us about the groundbreaking work being done by ScultureAI and how they are leveraging AI to coach everyday interactions between internal staff members and external stakeholders. We discuss the endless interactions that shape company culture, why it matters, and how Elie and his team are helping companies use AI to embed their culture into actualized, organization-wide behavior. To learn more about how AI is used to transform company culture, tune in today!
 Key Points From This Episode: How Elie’s corporate background instilled an appreciation for good company culture. Co-founding ScultureAI with his father and what led them into the AI startup space. His father’s experience fostering strong company cultures and his extensive AI research. The significant gap between what companies say their culture is and what it actually is. Why company culture matters, from employee well-being to organizational success. What to consider when selecting and defining your company values. Common challenges organizations face when implementing company culture. How ScultureAI is helping companies embed company culture from the ground up. Their groundbreaking AI-powered behavioral coach and examples of its workflow integration. Key challenges they’ve encountered working with LLMs and how they’ve addressed these. What you can expect from the ScultureAI demo and how to get in touch. An overview of hiring as a potential use case for their behavioral AI coach. How ScultureAI prioritizes and safeguards user data and privacy. Overcoming challenges as innovators in the space and advice to other leaders. Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Elie Rashbass on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/elie-rashbass-cfa-b78631132/) ScultureAI (https://sculture.ai/) Donald Sull (https://mitsloan.mit.edu/faculty/directory/donald-sull) Sami Birnbaum (https://samibirnbaum.com) Sami Birnbaum on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/samibirnbaum/) Svenja Schäfer (svenjaschaefer.com) Svenja Schäfer on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/svenjaschaefer/) Will Larry on X (https://x.com/will23larry) Will Larry on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-larry/) Victoria Guido on X (https://x.com/victori_ousg) Victoria Guido on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/victorialguido/) thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com) thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/) thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/) Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email ([email protected]) Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot)

By addressing the way that families hire, manage, and pay in-home care professionals, Clara Home Care is reimagining the way that home care is delivered in America, and Jon Levinson is at the helm. He joins us today to share his personal experiences with in-home care that led him to research the industry, identify the challenges, and co-found Clara. Hear how Jon was able to draw on his background in product management for TripAdvisor and Uber to pioneer his company, what it was like to develop early iterations of the product, and how all this resulted in creating the first-ever caregiver-specific payroll platform. We touch on finding the appropriate market, creating foundational code, and the importance of setting best practices to support scaling and changing. Jon also describes the critical role of thoughtbot in setting Clara Home Care up for scaling success. To finish, Jon shares some of the exciting opportunities that exist in the realm of care management, and how Clara is already taking advantage of them. Thanks for listening! Key Points From This Episode: Introducing Jon Levinson, Co-Founder and CEO at Clara Home Care. The role of thoughtbot in bringing Clara to life. A personal experience that led Jon to pioneer Clara Home Care. Results of researching the specific problems faced in the broader industry. His background in product management at TripAdvisor, Uber, and more. The engineer who became his technical co-founder. Fundraising choices and investment during his early journey. Three consumer problems that care agencies do not adequately address. Why using an agency is still beneficial in comparison to hiring independently. Developing the first version of the product. Identifying the opportunity to pioneer the first caregiver-specific payroll platform. The challenge of finding people seeking a caregiving product. Setting foundational code structured to scale and the role of Thoughtbot in this process. Reaching a critical mass by building a strong grounding through relationships. Balancing building the marketplace, solving discovery, and investing in caregiving technology. Flexible metrics for success in a given marketplace. Why caregivers still favor agencies over independent work. Understanding how emotionally taxing the caregiver coordination role can be. Features that support the relationship with long-term care insurance providers and care management. Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Jon Levinson on X (https://x.com/levinsonjon) Jon Levinson on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonlevinson1/) Jon Levinson Email ([email protected]) Clara Home Care (https://www.clarahomecare.com/) Clara Home Care on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/HomeCareNearMe/) Clara Home Care on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/clarahomecare/) Thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com/) Will Larry on X (https://x.com/will23larry) Will Larry on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-larry/) Victoria Guido on X (https://x.com/victori_ousg) Victoria Guido on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/victorialguido/) thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com) thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/) thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/) Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email ([email protected]) Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot)

In this episode of Giant Robots Smashing into Other Giant Robots (On Tour!), hosts Sami Birnbaum and Svenja Schäfer are joined by Karishma Gupta, the Founder and CEO of Eslando Circular Fashion. Eslando is a fashion company dedicated to changing the clothing industry through circular economy principles and textile recycling. Its mission is to simplify recycling and ensure compliance with EU regulations by connecting brands, consumers, and recyclers, fostering transparency and efficiency in the fashion industry. In today’s conversation, Karishma delves into her company’s innovative Digital Product Passport and how it’s revolutionizing the fashion and textile industries. We discuss how her company helps the right material get to the right recycler using data and leveraging AI to map the process. Tune in to explore how the circular economy applies to the fashion industry, the current recycling gaps, what motivates fashion brands to be more sustainable, and how Eslando is reducing the carbon footprint of the textile supply chain! Key Points From This Episode: Background on Karishma and what led her to start a tech company. How recycling in fashion differs from other industries that recycle. An outline of the biggest recycling hurdles facing the fashion industry. The complex range of materials in clothes and the problems they create. Karishma’s transition from the fashion industry to founding a tech-based company. Some of the materials in clothes that are endlessly recyclable. Details about the Digital Product Passport and what it offers the supply chain. Benefits and costs of sustainable regulations and solutions for fashion brands. Ways that Eslando is monetizing its various solutions. The value proposition the Digital Product Passport offers consumers. How long it took to create and build a workable prototype. What Karishma has planned for the future of Eslando Circular Fashion. Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Karishma Gupta on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/karishma248/) Karishma Gupta on X (https://x.com/_karishmagupta) Eslando Circular Fashion (https://www.eslando.com) Innovate UK (https://www.ukri.org/councils/innovate-uk/) Carbon13 (https://carbonthirteen.com) Sami Birnbaum (https://samibirnbaum.com) Sami Birnbaum on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/samibirnbaum/) Svenja Schäfer (svenjaschaefer.com) Svenja Schäfer on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/svenjaschaefer/) Will Larry on X (https://x.com/will23larry) Will Larry on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-larry/) Victoria Guido on X (https://x.com/victori_ousg) Victoria Guido on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/victorialguido/) thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com) thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/) thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/) Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email ([email protected]) Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot)

Giant Robots On Tour Hosts Sami Birnbaum and Jared Turner introduce Sheng-Hung Lee, a designer, PhD researcher at MIT AgeLab, and board director at the Industrial Designers Society of America. Sheng-Hung shares his journey into design and engineering, emphasizing the importance of interpreting signals in design and the evolving role of designers from problem-solvers to culture shapers. He discusses how designers must now consider broader, systematic issues such as climate change and aging. Sheng-Hung explains that design is a teachable and essential life skill, highlighting the significance of personal experiences and failures in learning design. He elaborates on the concept of signals, explaining that they represent different perspectives and interpretations in design, which are crucial in addressing complex problems. The conversation shifts to practical design applications and Sheng-Hung's work in smart homes for aging populations. He discusses the integration of various smart systems and the importance of designing for different life stages rather than specific age groups. Jared and Sami also engage Sheng-Hung in discussing the worst and best-designed products, where Sheng-Hung mentions his initial skepticism but eventual appreciation for facial recognition technology. MIT AgeLab (https://agelab.mit.edu/) Industrial Designers Society of America (https://www.idsa.org/) Follow Sheng-Hung Lee on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/shenghunglee/). Visit his website: shenghunglee.com (https://www.shenghunglee.com/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript:  SAMI: Hello again, and this is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, the Giant Robots On Tour Series coming to you from Europe, West Asia, and Africa, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Sami Birnbaum. JARED: And I'm your other host, Jared Turner. SAMI: If you are wondering, which you might have been for a while now, where are Will or Victoria, well, make sure you find one of our previous podcasts where we introduce the Giant Robots on Tour Series, and you'll understand why you're hearing myself and Jared a little bit more frequently than before. In that podcast, we throw random icebreakers at each other, and we find out that Svenja does not like online banking. And if you haven't listened to our previous podcast with our guest, Ishani, check that out as quick as you can and find out why AI is compared to babies. Joining us today is Sheng-Hung Lee, a Designer and PhD Researcher at MIT AgeLab and Board Director at the Industrial Designers Society of America. Sheng-Hung, I'm going to level with you. I've done my research. I've done my due diligence on the guests that we have on this podcast, and I'm exhausted. SHENG-HUNG: [laughs] SAMI: I've looked through your own website, and I've read as much as I can find about you. And between education, experience, awards, scholarships, there is an incredible amount of things that you're involved in that you get up to. And it really wasn't good for my own self-esteem just to see how much you have going on. SHENG-HUNG: [laughs] SAMI: Jared, a question for you first. Bear in mind, the only thing I've ever been awarded is my own driving license. So, our guest, Sheng-Hung, how many awards do you think he has currently listed on his website? Give a guess. JARED: Oh gosh, I remember looking at the page, and I remember having to scroll. SAMI: [laughs] Yeah, you had to scroll. JARED: Let's pick 33. SAMI: 33. Do you know what? It's not even close. Okay, he's nearly double that. So, he's up at 60 awards that are currently listed. So, we're talking about a guest that you guys do not want to miss. And you want to make sure that you get into this conversation. I always like to go back to the start with my guests. So, everyone has a story. And I'm interested, Sheng-Hung, in your journey and what led you into the world of design and engineering. SHENG-HUNG: My personal definition of design is, like, decoding signals. So, everything in our lives, like, we have different types of signals. How do we interpret the signal? How do we, like, understand, or perceive different types of signals in our lives? And I feel design is more like...not just creation. It is creation, for sure, but also about curation. I feel like, for me, problem-solving or, like, problem-defining is really interesting. And especially you mentioned, like, my very early stage as a designer, the reason I submitted my work to get an award is because I want to show my problem-solving skill. And I realize nowadays, like, the problem is too complicated. It's not just about solving problems, right? I mean, I feel design is more bigger than that, especially now most of the problems are systematic and complex. Climate change, right? Like, you think about aging, and you think about all this, like, sustainable issues. I feel like designers, like, for me, starting from problem solver, as engineer, and now more I've become like a translator, curator, or even, like, a culture shaper. How do you shape the culture you want, right? Especially now, like, AI it's just, like...that really let me rethink about my role as designer, you know, because everyone can have tons of ideas, but the truth is, like, we have so many ideas, but do you know what good taste is about? Do you know what the good qualities of life's about? So, you have to have some personal experiences to really help people to understand or curate the vision in the future. SAMI: That's really interesting. I struggle to dress my kids in the morning from a design perspective, right? I don't get colors, and I don't understand necessarily how they match and how to get things working. In fact, sometimes I'll dress my kids only to find that my wife has redressed the kids. Things are that bad at home. Do you think then design is something which can be taught, or is it something, like, innate? Is it something, in your own experiences, that it's kind of part of your nature? So, you see the world differently to someone like myself or Jared sees the world. Or could that be something which we could pick up on, you know, and learn about? SHENG-HUNG: Yeah, I definitely think design can be teachable. It's skillable. And I feel like, yeah, people talk about this is, like, a hardcore skill. It's a soft skill. No, I think design is a life skill. It's a human skill. So, that includes like, for example, like, yeah, how do you choose the color? How do you choose the clothes for kids? But also about, like, how do you celebrate the quality of lives, right? How do you, like, have better, like, qualities? And I feel like, I don't know, life skill means, like, team building, creative leadership, knows people, listening to people. And, for me, that's part of design because you're decoding different signals. You understand your life. You perceive different types of noises. Or how do you resonate with other people? And that's a life skill, I think. And I also feel most of the design skills I learned is actually not from school. It's from, like, personal life failure [laughs]. SAMI: That's really interesting. I just want to jump in because I don't know if I fully understand what you mean by signals. Can you just elaborate on that a little bit more? And then, I will bring you back up on personal failures. SHENG-HUNG: Signal is like different ways of seeing things, right? So, for example, like, if I go to wait in line for a free bagel, right? You share this with your friends. What I see is it's a free bagel. But what my friends see is like, oh, probably, like, I don't need to wait in line and so many challenges. You know, I have to, like, oh, why should I get this? But I see very clearly I want a free bagel. So, these are different. It's the same thing but different message mixed up, right? And then, for me, I see design, like, it happens every day. It's a life skill. For example, like, I saw the challenges, but what if we think another perspective to rethink about what kind of challenge [inaudible 06:38] or reframe the right questions, right? And all this, like, mixed all together, it feels like it's not just about drawing beautiful sketches or rendering sexy, you know, ideas. It's all about, like, how do you frame these challenges? How do you look at this? Can you see the question from social aspect, from cultural aspect, or you just see this as a solution-driven approach? JARED: In some cases, I feel, there is an element of subjectivity to the designs, but then we also want to measure the success of a design. Do you have any tips for, like, how you go about putting numbers to what defines success for a particular design? SHENG-HUNG: This is such a great question, especially now my research focus is really on services, you know, service design, experience design. Like, how do you quantify this, right? For example, three of us we go to the restaurant, and I feel it's really, really great restaurant. And probably some people feel no, that's not really great. And then, how do we quantify this, right? And then, I feel it's sometimes, like, really by personal preferences. It's hard to measure. Maybe there will be some sort of, like, a principle direction or criteria we can follow, so, for example, service quality metrics or something, like, based on people's life experiences. I feel it's hard to measure, especially now the design challenge the question it's really complicated. Some people talk about demographic. How do you, like, [inaudible 08:09] design? Like, for example, a participant design process, right? Or, like, inclusiveness. People talk about equity, power, power dynamic. And I think it's less of a measure or quantify. It's more about do you show your respect? Can we be more inclusive in this process? Can we really engage or integrate multiple voices in this design process? And I feel like that kind of shows the flexibility, also, the real flexibility of the design, not just that, oh, we look for one single solution. Because, most of the time, we actually want to design for a solution, but, actually, I feel now the shift is from we try to build the condition to let people land on this condition and solve the problem. So, in the end, we'll be like, yeah, we landed here, and we can solve the problem together collectively. So, something I feel a little bit different, but that's a great question. It's open-ended. Yeah. JARED: Yeah. Thank you. There's a lot to think about there. I want to bring it back to failure because this is something I think about a lot in terms of teaching and learning from history versus learning from your own failure. We have, like, thousands of years of history of failure. You think we have made all the mistakes already, and, oh, it should be easy, right? All we need to do is teach all of the young generation about all of this failure, and then they'll remember not to do it. But in reality, it doesn't really work that way. I find the strength of the argument is oftentimes weak compared to failing yourself and really deeply learning that lesson. I'm curious about your thoughts on that. And then, I'm also curious to hear about some of your, let's call them, best failures. SHENG-HUNG: I personally feel like people fail. They fail forward, not backward. So, even if you fail, you move a little bit. It depends on how crazy, right, and how fast you fail. It's an iterative process. The reason I say learning from failure because from traditional Asian family, Asian students, right? Probably in the past, I would say I raised my hand. I want to learn, or I ask senior people. I want to learn. But, actually, more than that, it says, "I want to experience. I want to be part of it," right? So, you're not becoming the manager because you learn to become a...no, you're in that position, and you learn to be a manager. So, I learned that mindset when I worked at IDEO. And one of the senior design directors told me, "No, you should say, 'I want to experience.'" So, that means that you have fully immersed experiences. And one of the best examples for me is that the first two years I worked at IDEO and IDEO Asia, supporting projects in Tokyo, Shanghai, Singapore offices, and sometimes European, like, office work; the first two years, my confidence almost collapsed. I have to collect my confidence. It's so hard because I'm eager to learn so many things. I didn't beat myself. And then, after two years, I met an amazing, like, design mentor. And I started the things I'm good at as product designer, a tangible designer. I start as product-focused and thinking about whole design process. And then, I start to collect my confidence. And I realized every single project at IDEO or in my life it's a vehicle, you know. And then, you always connect the dots when you're looking backwards. And you realize, oh, this is failure. Let me know what do you mean by client management? What do you mean by, like, teamworking? Because everyone is from so diverse background. And everyone says, "I'm a designer," but they have different interpretation. And how do you communicate it, right? And how do you keep the conversation transparent and also effective, and how do you empower people? And I feel because of that connect the dots process, also, all the things I want to learn, I want to experience it really helps me to grow at the third year or second year in IDEO. And that really makes me think about, oh, wow, I didn't know. I failed completely. And that's really healthy, for me, because you become very strong. At some point, I started to realize, oh, what do you mean by...what does it mean by design consultancy business? What we can sell. Where's our capacity, our limitation? You know, other than just, oh, everything's, like, imaginative conceptual. I kind of know what happened, and I know the boundary. And I know how can I empower people and also the client. SAMI: Yeah, embracing failure is a real strength. At thoughtbot, we kind of...if we're developing products and we're, let's say, designing or coding, whether websites or applications, we have this concept of failing fast. So, the faster you can fail, the quicker you can iterate towards the right solution. And that's something which is difficult to embrace because the first time you do it, I want this to be perfect, and I want to build it in the way that it works. But, actually, you'll spend a lot of time trying to get towards that perfection, and it's much better to ship faster, fail faster, and then get towards the solution. I noticed as well that...well, I read that the one thing you've been recently working on is designed for the aging population, so more specifically, smart homes for the aging populations. Shout out to my parents if they're looking for a smart home. Sorry, mom and dad. SHENG-HUNG: [laughs] SAMI: I've always found, especially my generation, so I'm about...I'm not about; I am 32 years [chuckles] old. So yeah, there's always been, like, a big gap between kind of my generation, the way we've engaged with technology products, the way my parents' generation have been able to. And I imagine a future where my kids are running around in VR headsets, and I'm still, you know, using a basic laptop. I would love to know more about your work kind of in this area and designing for a different sector of the population. SHENG-HUNG: My master thesis and my master project is focused on redesigning, like, smart footwear for aging population, and then that's part of the smart home ecosystem. And I was actually impressed and surprised. It's like most of the sponsors or clients we talk about, like, people [inaudible 14:38] to think about just the product level, so smart like [inaudible 14:43], smart like a door, or smart like, you know, like a bed or a smart, like, alarm clock. People start to think about how can we integrate all this system together? Because, like, for example, if you bought Amazon, you know, versus Apple and all these different devices, the platform is really a problem because the products cannot communicate with each other. And we want to make sure all the products can communicate and support you, or, like, they can at least receive your data or information to give the appropriate response. So, the smart home project starts to think about from ideas to become more like platform integration. IKEA is the best example, right? Like, I think two years ago, they talk about, yeah, they launched their first app, right? Everything is, yeah, it seems like, oh, what's the big deal about this, right? No, but you think of this from the intention perspective to actually connect the whole system together because they want to make sure their internal designer, developer they really can think through their own internal system to make sure everything's connected, interconnected, not just, oh, you do a part of this. We sell this to a certain Asian, and it didn't really connect. So, I feel like when we designed it, it's really from the system perspective to talk about a smart home. And then, regarding of, like, design across [inaudible 16:04] generation, that's really important, actually, because especially now I'm focused on design for retirement. And I shifted to design for longevity. And then, the cool thing about this is, like, we think about our life in terms of age, but, actually, now we need to think about our life in terms of different life stages, different lifestyle. The book called "Stage (Not Age)", means, like, now we cannot even describe people above 100 years old or 85 years. So, we call them future hood, right? So, like, different life stages. And I feel like that really impacts, as designers, the way we design products or interfaces, right? And it has to evolve with people. When you say, for example, if we have, like, a smart, like, a robot in our home, they have to know your personal routine. And you kind of grow, right? For example, oh, I get older. I move slower, or my mobility is different, and it changes. How does that mean to our product or our smart services? And I feel like across different generations, it's really thinking about design for different people in different life stages. And that's really important, not just about financial planning or about your future education, family, community, right? Now people are probably thinking about aging in place. My parents just bought a second home. They're thinking about retirement life. And so, these are things that really impact all aspects of life. And I feel like the idea of one solution for all the era is kind of over because we have to think about not just one solution, multiple solution tailor-made for multiple different people in different life stages. MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you’re tight on time and investment, which is why we’ve created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product’s next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at: tbot.io/entrepreneurs. JARED: And, Sheng-Hung, in one of your articles that I was reading about design for longevity, you sort of say that design for aging isn't just about designing for older people, but rather, I think one of your colleagues asked this question, which I really liked, which is, how can inclusive methods build elegant design solutions that work for all? And I find that a really aspirational goal. But one of the things, say, at thoughtbot, when they're building a product, so we often talk about targeting a specific niche or a specific user base because then we can really optimize for them. And so, you're designing something that's elegant, and that works for all. It doesn't sound very easy. It sounds like a good challenge. And I'm curious about how do you go about that, and do you have any examples you can you can share? SHENG-HUNG: Design for all elegantly also seamlessly. Optimize everyone's needs or, like, design process. I feel...because my topic is focused on financial planning, right? And I think about everyone's income level is different. Their investable income asset is also different. We have a different situation, right? Our family issue, the healthcare condition is also different. And I feel like that, also, if we look at this question, we should think about, okay, how do we define design for all, right? Is it universal design, or is it inclusive design? I think there are definitely some, like, basic or fundamental, like, foundation or criteria we need to meet. Like, for example, human-centered, right? Or, like, we think about accessibility for certain technology. What's the threshold for a certain way of use the technology or product? That could be, like, a universal or, like, basic. Like I said, people's life stages are so different. And can we really make sure our product or interfaces is always dynamic, always change? Design for transformation, right? And I feel the ideas of changing is kind of scaring for most people. Because you don't want to, like, you woke up, and you realize your iPhone just update the whole interfaces, and you suddenly don't know how to use it [laughs]. It changed too dramatically. What I mean by change is like, it's a gradual integration process. And I feel that's kind of beautiful. Like, for example, the way I use my bicycle, the biking, right? They can ultimately adjust my speed, recharging, or understand my personal preferences. That could be something I think is powerful for future for providing the right solution, yeah. But also, it's a benefit of this, but also, there's downsides. Like, maybe because of that, we all live our own personal bubbles pretty well, right? Like, oh, yeah, yeah, I read a newspaper. No, you read the newspaper that I curated for you. So, somehow, the information started different [laughs]. So, there's a gap, but I don't know. It's very cool. It's very great, great question. I think there's still...I don't have the exact same answer, but I feel that could be potential for now. Yeah. JARED: Yeah, I really like that. So, it's not just a one-size-fits-all-all, but, like, it's a sort of an elegant transformation over the course of someone's life. We've discussed a few different things like design for longevity. You touched on there, as we were speaking, human-centered design. I know you've made a distinction of humanity-centered design as well, and there's also life-centered design. I wonder if you could give us and our listeners a little rapid-fire explainer of each of them. SHENG-HUNG: Like, when we talk about human-centered design, right? Like, it's, like, a buzzword. And everyone talks about HCD, and most people think, oh, if you got a post-it note, you're, like, a HCD designer. No, like, what does that mean, right [laughs]? It's very cliché. And they're like, oh, yeah, all these, like, HCD designers bring the post-it notes with Sharpies and go to facilitate tons of workshops, and they sit and know people. And I feel it's more than that, right? Human-centered is really, like, put yourself, designers, in the shoes of clients, users, customers, and participants to know their needs, their desire and address their pain point. And I think for human-centered design like Don Norman said in his latest book, it's not just about design as a discipline. It also covers, like, politics, covers, like, ethical issue, culture. It's broader. And, for me, the simplest version is, like, you design with care. You design with human temperature. We create technology with human temperature. That means that we're now for this technology to [inaudible 23:13] technology. We know why we need that technology. So, for example, if you provide the, like, the cell phone to the developing countries, you probably don't want to send, like, the latest cell phone. You want to send them, like, the adequate technology. What I mean by that is like, it's very, like, stereotype, but I'm trying to explain the idea is like, oh, Nokia could be a great option at this point, for example. You can communicate. You don't need, like, crazy, like, AR VR function. You at least can communicate. So, it's adequate. I think that kind of lens is, like, you think about the culture, the needs, economic, social status. And then, you can start to move on and upgrade the devices. And I feel like life-centered is even broader. It's like, can you design something to the lens of cats, your pets, your animals? So, it's really like, it's really...it sounds a little bit like a speculative design. But the truth is, like, we can shift our perspective to different kinds of species, cross-species, not just focus on human, because everything we design definitely starts from also for a human being. But now life-centered is like, it's longer, broader. And then, for me, it also means like, we just talk about life-centered. It's like, really think through all different stages of life, not just, like, focus on one single age or a single stage, too specific, too narrow. It's, like, broader. So, when we talk about life-centered design, LCD, we really think about a lot of different systems, framework. What's the model we can follow? You know, so we're also thinking about policy, about power dynamic, government, ethical issues. So, this, I think, like, it's broader, and it's really large. Sometimes it's pretty vague, for sure. We have to use some cases or really think about in different contexts. Context is really important, designed for different contextual knowledges and needs. SAMI: Yeah, I think that is actually a really helpful understanding. Myself I don't know anything about those concepts, so to kind of get that theoretical understanding and explanation from yourself is really helpful. In a more practical sense, I have a question, which is a very selfish question. The reason it's a selfish question is because I want to know what do you think? When you look at the world through your designer lenses, what do you think is the worst-designed product you've ever seen or come across? And I think I know the answer to this. I think there is a right answer. While you have a think, I'll share my answer. I don't know if you have this because you said you're based in Boston at the moment. And I'm showing you because we're on camera, but I will describe it to the listeners as well is what they've done with bottles now is when you open, like, a Coke bottle, for example, all other beverages are available...Coke, if you want to sponsor us [laughter], we're happy just to mention you. When you take the bottle cap off, it's now connected to the top of the bottle. So, someone has decided...now, I understand the reason behind it. They're saying that it's for recycling. So, when you throw your bottle away, make sure the cap goes with the bottle. But someone has sat there, and they've designed the bottles. So, when you take off the cap, it's still connected to the top of the bottle. And countless times, I'm either pouring into a cup or pouring into my mouth. And that cap is getting in the way. So, the liquid kind of goes into that cap, and it spills on me, or it spills on the table. This is an absolute design failure, a catastrophe in my eyes. That's my worst design that I've come across in real life. Do you have anything you can think of that you look at, and you're like, who designed this? SHENG-HUNG: This is such a great example because I did have similar experiences when I went to Milan Design Week last year. All the plastic bottle is, like, connected. The cap connects with the bottle. And I didn't know that it's on purpose at the very beginning. I thought, how come it's, like, connected? I want to take it out because it's easier for me to drink. And I realized it's not just this one; all of them is the same [laughs]. Yeah, that's a great example. I think, for me, design for failure adapter, for example, you know, adapter, like dongle, right? Like, we have so many different...this guy HDMI cable, the cable for iPhone, and the magnet for my Apple MacBook Pro. That's painful because you try to find, like, when you go to, like, a talk or a speech or try to present something, I think, for me, the easiest way is, like, AirPlay, right, Wi-Fi or Bluetooth to connect to the projector. But in reality, you always need this HDMI cable. And this guy connects with my Mac. There's some problem. It depends on...now I always bring my adapter with me. It's just like, we have that [inaudible 28:04] like, you know, it almost, like, very frequently, if we're meeting, you have to show your screen. How can we design less physical but it's user-friendly, right? People use Mac. People use Apple, use, like, Microsoft. How do you design something like a universal adaptable to everyones, just sharing screen? This is what I need. So, I think this could be one bad design, I think, at this moment [laughs]. SAMI: Yeah, that's a great example as well, and so frustrating. And I wonder if it's, like, a money-making scheme, you know, everyone has their own chargers. And that's a way kind of they make some income as well on the side. Jared, what have you seen in the world? What's your pet peeve? What really grinds your gears? JARED: This was easy for me. It came to me straight away. Any door that has a handle that you can wrap your hand around which signifies it should be pulled that is push. It's just, I mean, what is going on there? It drives me bonkers. SHENG-HUNG: [laughs] SAMI: That is brilliant. I think it's only fair if we flip the question, right? And then, we say, what's the best thing you've seen designed, right? There must be something out there where you've gone, "Oh, that is so useful. That makes so much sense. Why haven't we done that until now?" And have you kind of...I guess this is for Sheng-Hung, like, have you got any inspiration from that sort of thing? SHENG-HUNG: I have to be honest. Like, I really feel like in the past, I'm kind of scared about, like, use your face to unlock your phone. But the more I use it, I feel like, oh my God, this is so convenient. You just look at it. I know it's a bit scary because they have all your biometric data information. I know even you protect under the regular law, but still, I feel like, yeah, it's so seamless connected. And I feel maybe the better answer is like, I feel a great design is, like, to reduce the friction between the transition of devices by devices, right? So, for me, I mean, so interface by interface. So, when I share the data on my phone, what does that mean? From phone to my computer or phone to other people, right? All the different interfaces changing. The less friction, the better. I feel seamless connected. So, you know, AirDrop, super convenient, photos, videos with people, Mac users. But what does that mean for, like, Windows users, right? And so, every platform has their own, like, spec, or criteria. And I feel if the user can feel the seamless friction between these interfaces, for me, that could be a great design solution. JARED: I love that answer. And I love that description of reducing friction. It reminds me a little bit of, I think, my favorite book on UX is by Steve Krug, which is "Don't Make Me Think." And it's just all about doing the simplest thing, reducing confusion, overcoming objections, and reducing friction. So, I really love that. I do have an answer for this one as well. It's a little bit selfish or focused on my own life. So, I have a dog. She's a Welsh Terrier called Rosie. She's just turned one. Whenever we used to go out, you've got to take water for her if it's a hot day. I always used to take a bottle, whether you could unscrew the top or not, I'm not sure, Sami, and, like, a little bowl to put that in, or you use your hands. And, invariably, she's not going to drink all of the water, so you've got waste. You throw that out. The bag gets wet, all of that. Someone has designed this really cool bottle where the top is actually the bowl. It's an all-in-one. And you press a button; the water goes into the bowl. She drinks. Whatever's left, you press the button again, turn it upright. And the water just flows back in into the rest of the bottle. It's such a simple thing. But, like you say, it just reduces that friction. Anytime a problem no longer exists, manual to automatic cars, fight me, I'm all for it. Well, that's a problem solved. That's less friction. That's beauty in the world. SAMI: Yeah, I think it's amazing. When you think about these examples, it really brings out how much of an impact design has. So, you can have the best product in the world, but if you don't get that frictionless design, or you don't get that design that's going to really bring that improvement, it's going to be difficult to make that product a success. And I think there's some, like, when I think about leaders and innovators in this kind of space, so I know you already mentioned IKEA and I think of Apple. And I don't know the answer to this, and maybe our listeners also wonder, like, how do these companies...they seem to keep getting it right. No matter what happens, they seem to set the trends, and they get their design spot-on, and they innovate in that space. How are they so successful in their design? SHENG-HUNG: I think a recent example is like, you know, like, Apple just recently launched the Vision Pro, right? The XR, the goggles. And put the demo time 30 minutes to get in-store experiences. You're booking the demo time with them, the 30 minutes. For me, I wrote an article about it. It is less about the goggle itself. It is about the whole experiences. The time you enter the store, right, and then you're waiting there, who guiding you? The Genius Bar people guiding you. You sit down. You have the prescription and your glasses that get measured, scan the QR code, and find the match [inaudible 33:35] pair of goggles that fit your [inaudible 33:37] of your face. And they put it on. They sit on the side, use the iPad to guiding you, and tell personal experiences or stories. These companies are very design-driven, vision-driven company. They really think about the whole experiences of users, right? And, for me, it's too pricey, for me, the product, obviously, right now. But I have very delightful, positive experiences because of that 30-minute demo. So, I kind of plant the seeds in my heart. Oh, if the second generation or something have discount, I would definitely want to get one for myself. Not really because...it's a great design for sure, but also, the impression I have. And I feel that really, really, like, make a difference, right? It's tiny. It's very subtle. They can, "No, we don't have, like, demo experiences." They can just purely sell the product. But I think they sell something bigger than just product. Branding user experiences, delightful experiences. And I can really feel that, and that's really powerful in the end. JARED: Do you think that that sort of level of design is limited to the companies that can afford it like the big names? Like, obviously, there is a cost dedicated to having the time and to putting the resources to that. Is it always just going to be the big players, or are there things we can do to democratize that availability for the startups, for the SMEs? SHENG-HUNG: I actually think it's about a company's culture. So, another example I would love to share is, like, when we did, like, an inspiration trip in Tokyo, and there's a very famous, like, chain bookstore called Tsutaya bookstore or Tsutaya electrics. So, to my surprise, like, yeah, it's a big bookstore, and we probably think bookstore selling books. No, they're actually selling a lifestyle. So, for example, like, if I want to buy the book around how to use a camera, right, the way they curate it, it's like, yeah, we do have the books around camera, but also, we'll put the real camera, like, near the book. So, they curate the whole experiences. You flip the book. Oh, this is so cool. Thanks, I want to try it. You probably, in the end, you got both. So, very interesting and also very human-centered, like, retail experiences. Why did I say culture? Because when I entered the store, I asked for one book I was looking for. The staff came to me, and she bring two books to me. One is the book I want, unpack. And one is the book...it's the same book, but without the plastic cover. It's brand new. And why she brought two books to me because if I want to buy this book, I not only read inside, but also, I can just get the new one with me to check out. And this is so subtle, right? Because they're not just bringing you, like, the sample. They also bring the final product with you. So, I feel that kind of culture is, like, very strong, customer-centered, think about your needs, think about your next step. So, they kind of plan ahead, and this is so strong message to me. Oh my God, this is such a great design culture, or at least a human-centered culture to think about my needs, my decision-making process. So, I feel connected with that, and I feel like, yes, they have money, but also, like, they really cultivate that culture within the...not just...they also send a message to their customers. SAMI: I feel like, Sheng-Hung, we could speak to you for hours. I mean, you are opening my world and my eyes to a different world of design. I've got one final question for you before we wrap up that I wanted to cover. I've seen from your website, like, you've personally designed products. So, out of all the products you've either designed yourself or you've been involved with, what would you say, and could you describe for us your favorite product that you've designed yourself? SHENG-HUNG: I think my favorite product is, like, I help and re-design, like, Shanghai Library Innovation Space that, for me, is OMG. Oh my God. It's crazy. Like, one single team, my side project and collaborate with the full staff, librarian, the leadership team. What is powerful is, like, library for them in Shanghai, it's a local hub to connect the community and also to teach, to learn for the younger generation how to use the space. For sure, most people use that space for, like, self-studying, you know, activity and all this stuff. But, for me, like, it's so impactful because every single change that means a lot of impact because it's a public space. And also, it's really, really powerful. Like, you think about the decision-making process. You have to think about feasibility, viability, and also desirability, all things to connect together. And it's really hard, not easy process. It took me about a year-long project. And I'm really happy because, in the end, it's really from sketches, concept, prototyping models, all the way they rebuild, modify the design, integrated. And now the new library they build on another area of Shanghai is really based on this model and framework. I'm very happy, and I also feel like, yeah, design can make a positive impact. It's not like a concept. It's real. And it's nice. It's painful, but it's really satisfying, yeah [laughs]. SAMI: That's really cool when you get to a point where you've done something, and then you see people using what you've designed and, like, enjoying that space and benefiting from all that hard work that you've put into. I have to thank you so much for joining us and giving us time today on the Giant Robots On Tour Series of the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast. Our listeners don't know, but you've had about two hours of sleep. SHENG-HUNG: [laughs] Yeah. SAMI: So, it's probably time for you to get back into bed yourself. But that is your dedication to us. It's been an incredible episode and an incredible chat. I finally understand why Jared does not like doors. I myself, you will understand if you see me in the street and I'm tearing a bottle cap off of a bottle, you'll understand why. And we need to sort Sheng-Hung out with more adapters with just a single charger for all his devices. If people want to get a hold of you, Sheng-Hung, where's the best place they can reach out after listening to this podcast? SHENG-HUNG: Yeah, definitely, you can reach out through my personal website portfolio. Yeah, shenghunglee.com. And I'm happy to respond and discuss about design-related topic. Thanks for having me on this podcast. It's very exciting, and hope we can create all the great stuff for our society. SAMI: Pleasure. There's always a challenge I give to my listeners at the end, and it normally is just please hit that subscribe button. Jared has promised me that he will do a shoey if we can double our subscribers by the end of the series. If you don't know what a shoey is, my only advice to you is do not Google it because you do not want to know. You can find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have any questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected]. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See ya. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.

In this episode of the "Giant Robots On Tour" podcast, hosts Sami Birnbaum and Rémy Hannequin interview Dan Clark, the Founder and CEO of MindJam, an innovative platform providing emotional and SEN (Special Educational Needs) support for young people through gaming, game design, and digital skills. Sami shares a personal story about how his mother, an educational psychologist, introduced him to MindJam, highlighting its impact and relevance. Dan explains that MindJam was born out of the need to support young people who feel out of place in traditional educational settings, particularly those with ADHD, autism, and other neurodivergent conditions. By leveraging popular games like Minecraft, MindJam builds trust and engages young people in a medium they enjoy, transforming therapeutic support into a more effective and engaging process. Dan discusses the inception and growth of MindJam, which started during the pandemic when traditional in-person support became impossible. This shift to online sessions via gaming platforms provided a new avenue to connect with young people, enabling them to open up and build trust in a familiar and enjoyable environment. Dan emphasizes that gaming offers numerous benefits, such as enhancing cognitive abilities, fostering social connections, and providing a safe space for expression. Despite the negative stigma around gaming, he points out that it can be a powerful tool for personal development and emotional support. MindJam has grown significantly, now with 110 mentors supporting over 2,000 young people globally, showcasing the scalability and effectiveness of this approach. The conversation also touches on the broader implications and challenges of integrating gaming into therapeutic and educational contexts. Dan highlights the need for societal perception shifts to recognize the positive aspects of gaming, counteracting the negative media portrayal. He underscores the importance of educating parents, educators, and social services about the benefits of gaming and how it can be used constructively. Dan shares inspiring success stories from MindJam, illustrating how gaming can lead to real-world achievements and personal growth. MindJam (https://mindjam.org.uk/) Follw MindJam on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/MindJamOfficial), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/mindjam/), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/mindjamofficial/). Follow Dan Clark on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dan-clark-58533220b/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript:  SAMI: Right, we are back again. And this is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, the Giant Robots on Tour series coming to you from Europe, West Asia, and Africa, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host Sami Birnbaum. RÉMY: And I'm your other host, Rémy Hannequin. SAMI: Let's get into it, Rémy. Joining us today is Dan Clark, the Founder and CEO of MindJam, a platform that provides online one-to-one sessions, providing emotional and SEN support for young people through gaming, game design, and digital skills. Dan, full disclosure on this one: so, about a month ago, right? I get an email from my mom. Now [laughs], this email says, "You've got to check this guy out. Go and take a look at MindJam." And I'm thinking, mom, I don't get these emails from you. This is not the normal sort of thing I'd get from my mom on your average weekday. And I know in the past, like, I've told her that I'm kind of doing this podcast thing, and I'm starting to regret, like, telling her this. Like, what is she throwing my way? But I get into some research...and maybe for some context, actually, which is helpful because my mom isn't just doing research for the podcast, my mom's an educational psychologist. So, she's been doing that ever since I can remember. I remember growing up as a kid, and that was, I mean, she assessed me numerous times. And she works, I guess, similar kind of to the children or people that you're working with, people with ADHD, autism, neurodivergent children, just often who are struggling in school and trying to find where they fit. And I start doing my research. I look into it, hit the website, hit your LinkedIn. And I'll be, like, totally honest with you: We were both just blown away by what you are doing. And this is coming not only from me, and I work in the tech industry, and I've got a history of slight gaming addictions, which we might touch on, but also coming from my mom who works on the other side and works with all the local authorities. She does the kind of tribunals that they have to do to try and get people into the right schools and kids into the right schools. And, literally, we were blown away, and I nearly got lost as well on your website. I found some kind of gaming streams that you do, and I feel almost like we missed a trick here, Rémy, because we could have done this podcast on Minecraft. It's such a nice flow, right, when you're streaming. DAN: Yeah, it makes it easier when you've got that distraction there as well. You can just chat about it. Thank you so much for inviting me on. It's a pleasure being here and, yeah, I'm glad you kind of understand what we're doing here. MindJam itself is four years old now. But I was doing things before in the pandemic, similar. But once the pandemic hit, that was the key moment where everything went online for my support with young people. And, suddenly, the light bulb came on, and I was like, this is a way in. You know, there are so many young people that are struggling, lost, feel they're stupid, and don't fit in. Yet, actually, they're amazing. But, you know, a standard way of sitting in front of them going, "Tell me why you can't go to school. Why can't you do this?" you know, it doesn't work. They don't trust that person. They've got trauma. They've been, you know, battered down by education and by health services. And so, to suddenly have someone who comes in and goes, "Oh, so you love Minecraft. Oh, I love Minecraft, too. Let's join in. Let's go in a world." And then, you can build that trust to then go, "How's your week been then?" Or, you know, and start talking, and you're just on the same wavelength. And, for me, it was something as soon as I sort of realized, it was like, this is...of course, this makes perfect sense. And then, I looked and saw nobody else is doing it [laughs]. So, I started off MindJam just on my own. At first, very quickly, we got working with lots of...in the UK, we have local authorities, which is the councils around, so seeing there is a real, you know, thing that they would work with us. So, that was great, to be recognized as actually a real service, rather than just someone playing games with kids. It's like, no, this is real. This really works. And then, it quickly got bigger than me, and now we are at 110 mentors working for us, and we're supporting over 2,000 young people all over the world. SAMI: That's incredible. DAN: It's a mission of mine, you know, we'll go more into my sort of history, but I've got two neurodivergent children: both autistic, one's ADHD as well. When you see something that you think is going to work for your child, to then suddenly see it's got, like, a two-year waiting list, which most have, it's heartbreaking, and you know it's going to be too late. So, it's always been my mission with MindJam to keep that waiting list as small as I can, but also, obviously, expanding with quality mentors and all that. So, you know, we generally tend to always say about three months before we can sort of get that support for young people. But yeah, it's something very close to my heart that I'm so passionate about and, yeah, it's been a great journey so far. SAMI: You can tell. It's so interesting because, like you say, when you find something that works for your kids. Because when I was younger, I struggled with separation anxiety a lot in school. So, I would have days when I would really struggle to go to school. During my high school period, I went to the Royal Free, which is down in Hampstead, so not too far from where I grew up and not too far from my school. And my parents...I tried to engage with a therapist. But it's almost like, I don't know if I wasn't cognitively or intellectually developed enough to engage in that way, but it didn't work. Ultimately, I did kind of one or two sessions. I remember filling in some questionnaire and thinking, like, I don't get this. This doesn't make sense. And what you're talking about, if I understand correctly, is you're coming to where the child is at. You're coming to a safe space for them, a place where they feel comfortable. It's almost like a world which is predictable. Whereas the outside world is very scary, right? Especially for people who have generalized anxiety disorder, like I said, autism. It's very challenging. And so, you come to their level, and you say, "Right, let's find a place where we all feel comfortable." And then, we can start to engage. And you say, like, you know, the pandemic was a little bit of a light bulb moment. What's been the biggest barrier then? So, you've found yourself kind of going into this and saying, right, this is something which works. It works for my kids. I want to make this available, accessible. What's been your biggest barrier to getting this off the ground and getting it working? DAN: It's the negative thoughts and the way the media portrays and education portrays gaming, basically. That has been the hardest thing is most parents are on board, but they still feel a little bit ashamed of how social media is on gaming and screen time. And they're very worried that they're not doing the right thing. And we come in a way of also educating. We educate the educators. We do training plans for schools, and for social services, and all sorts because there are so many benefits to gaming that aren't recognized. And, you know, gaming is still generally quite new. It's evolved so much in the last even 10 years. It's insane the way the characters have evolved. And the emotional nature of games now is really complex and, you know, young people and older people can get so much from them. But gaming still, in general, people are still like, "Well, get off that. Do something actually worthwhile." It's like, it's so worthwhile. There's so much, you know, strategy game you've got so much from it. And a fast-paced shooting you've got cognitive abilities. The perfect example I've got is, did you hear a couple of months ago a young lad, I think he was 13, he beat Tetris. SAMI: Yes. DAN: He completed Tetris, which is incredible, you know, it's like, oh, wow. And the first thing the newsreader said to them, the media person interviewing him went, "You should get out more." That's the way she portrayed it, rather than going, "What an achievement it is. You should get outside more." I'm literally like, what? What's going on? You know, again, this kid, you know, he's in the Guinness World of Records. What an achievement. He's famous around the world for doing it. It's like, why is that not seen as such a good thing? You know, so yeah, so that was the hard thing was especially schools, you know, they're very frightened of gaming and of change. And so, trying to help them see that, actually, if you meet a young person where they're at in something they love, then you can help inspire them and help find out why they can't deal with the things, why they can't engage with school, and also inspire them for future learning careers. Even healthy gaming comes from having that understanding of how they're gaming. So, if someone's sat up all night gaming, yeah, we all know it's not great for them. But if you just say, "Gaming's evil. Get off it. You're wasting your time. I'm turning that off," they're going to want to rebel against that. Yet if you come in and go, "Oh, wow, I can see why you were sat up all night doing that. But have you noticed that you're not as good at playing when you're really tired or really hungry?" And if you look at the top e-sports players, they're athletes. They exercise; they eat well; they sleep well. So, you know, if you embrace gaming a bit more, you can get that trust and that bond to then help inspire in other ways. RÉMY: I mean, I could talk about it for a long time. It's really refreshing to hear someone talk about video games in such a positive way and talking about the benefits. And you even mentioned strong players like athletes. It's really refreshing. And I'm wondering, how did this knowledge come up to you in the first place? So, I bet you might be someone enjoying playing games yourself. But how did you see all these benefits yourself? Because, unfortunately, it's not something we talk a lot about. As you mentioned, in the press, we hear about all the negativity. Every time there is a strong event, we blame video games, all that. And we forgot all the stories where the video games enhance people, if they have trouble or not. It can be very beneficial to a lot of people. So, how did you see this value yourself? DAN: Yeah, well, yeah, I've always been a gamer, you know, ever since Spectrum 48K, I think you had. I'm showing my age now, but it was mainly when the Sega Megadrive, and from then, PlayStation onwards were my days. And me and my brother used to have great times together on that as well. You know, it was our bonding. But then I think the biggest light bulb to me...before the pandemic, I was a teacher. And I used to teach music and ICT and computers as well, and having my children as well, and both in school connecting with the young people. Because I was a gamer, I could talk about the games that they're playing with them and to see their eyes light up...and you're on a different wavelength with that young person. They suddenly got this trust in you, and they want to tell you all about what they've done on Minecraft, or what the new season of Fortnite's about. And it was having such a beneficial effect on them and same with my family as well. We, you know, both my children are autistic, and we've got, you know, we have a lot of difficulties around that of bonding together as a family, yet our closest moments have been through gaming together. So, Mario 3D World was the first one I remember with my children playing, and we could play at all levels. So, my son was about four and, you know, he was often in a bubble, killed, and floating back onto the screen again. But, you know, we had a great time. And I was suddenly, like, looking, thinking, this is amazing. You know, nobody hears about this side of it that it's bringing us together. And so, from there, I then started doing after-school gaming clubs, so not coding clubs, nothing like that. It was gaming. And the young people they loved it. It was oversubscribed. Masses of kids came to it. We had all sorts of things from Super Smash Bros, if you know that, to, you know, to PlayStation games, Go Simulator, and everything playing. And we just had a whale of a time, and they could really relax and make friends. And, again, it was all coming from the joy of gaming together, basically. And it's, you know, as much as some people might not like it, it's bigger and bigger. It's the biggest entertainment industry now. And, you know, on the other side of it, there are so many careers in it. If your young person has an interest in gaming, see what they're interested, help it, champion it because it's, yeah, you know, there's such a future there. But yeah, that's my story, basically, and where that sort of light bulb came from. And then, I've done a lot of research into the benefits of gaming and how you can use that for connecting with young people. And, you know, so many games now have characters with, you know, emotional things going off, or, you know, you can talk about feelings even in games like Minecraft where the characters don't talk. But you can be like, how must that person be feeling there? And, you know, you can really bring in real-life situations while gaming and also have a lot of fun, which I think is super important as well, which sometimes gets forgotten about. But, you know, real life is really enhanced by having loads of fun, and gaming's fun. SAMI: Yeah. It's so fascinating. As you're speaking, I'm having this internal dilemma, right? Because, in my head, everything you're saying is true and makes sense. And I believe it, and I've seen it. And then, I probably still harbor those feelings that are almost entrenched, like you're saying, in the media with, you know, the person who completed Tetris. And those sorts of feelings are still, like, a little bit entrenched to me in terms of the negative sides of gaming. Like, I guess I grew up probably similar to you, where it was like, "Well, why aren't you outside more?" and the negative aspect of it. I spoke about this in a different podcast, which I've apologized to my parents for mentioning in public. But when I was in university, it's too late now, I also kind of developed, I would call it probably, like, a small gaming addiction. I don't know where it would sit, but I was doing all-nighters Playing Call of Duty, Modern Warfare. And so, there definitely is a negative side. But I like what you say about, well, actually, you can address that in a healthy way. But then, this week, just this week, which is quite uncanny, my seven-year-old comes, and he says, "Daddy, I really want to get an Xbox, you know, my friend's got one." And he's just starting to get to that cusp of gaming. So, in my head, I say, yeah, like that makes total sense, and I imagine the benefits and the fun time me and him could have on an Xbox. But I still struggle with those feelings of...maybe they're my own worries of, well, but what if he neglects his other stuff? What if he goes into like, yeah, with ADHD, he goes into hyperfocus, and that's all he does? How [laughs] can you counsel me out of this concern? DAN: Well, no, I completely understand, and that is where all our fears come from, especially our generation and how it's put through. But I think young people more and more connect through gaming, whereas I think when we were gamers as young, a lot of stuff wasn't online. So, we weren't playing with our friends. We were playing on our own a lot of the time, whereas it's very social now. Platforms like Roblox and Minecraft are the things that are super social, working together as a team, things like that. But also screen time, I can show you that we've got a whole list of benefits of gaming, actually, that I'll share with you because there's studies that even screen time has been proven not to be detrimental the way we're told it is. And I think we must know that through how we work. Most of us work on screens these days, so. SAMI: Yeah, that's such a point of contention in the house because we currently do only on Fridays. So, they get, like, two hours of screen time. I don't know if that's strict. I don't know where I am on that. Do you have, like, with your own kids, or how do you handle that discipline? So, let's say I get the console, right? I bring it into the house to my seven-year-old. Do I limit it with screen time? How would you approach that sort of thing? DAN: Obviously, with a seven-year-old, it's a little bit different from...mine are now 17 and 14. So, we discuss it more, but yeah, definitely, you know, have boundaries. And also, if you're worried about how they're gaming, maybe have the Xbox in the living room, so instead of gaming in their bedroom, they're gaming when you're around, and it's a shared family activity. And then, it's easier to say, "Well, we're going to be having food in a minute. So, finish up on that game." And you can have all that understanding. But I think also, you know, that other side of things of coming from seeing what they're playing. I talk to parents a lot about this, and they get, you know, they see frustrations in their young people when they're trying to get them off. But they don't realize that maybe they're playing something like Fortnite or something that's a bit more online team-based, where if they pulled them off the game in the middle of the match, it could be detrimental to the team they're working with, their rankings. You know, they could even get banned from the game for a few days, you know. So, understanding and them being able to work time management together, being like, "Well, after this game is finished, this is where we're going, you know, we've got to go out. We've got to do this," you know, there is a give and take there. And I'm not saying there isn't negatives to gaming. We need, you know, everybody needs a break as well. But, again, through the understanding of what they're playing, you can have those conversations. If you're not playing them or watching them and don't understand what the game is about, and what the joy is about, there's going to be a gap between you, you know, where the young person is going to be like, "You don't understand me. You don't understand why I want to play this." My kids, you know, we went from the other [inaudible 17:37] because they've had severe problems at school, both of them, through their neurodivergency, and gaming has really helped them both to regulate. And maybe when you're saying about yourself when you had problems, and maybe there was something else going on. And then, the gaming was a way for you to cope, that safe space to go to that was actually working in a way as a little bit of therapy and keeping you grounded, you know, as well. So, you know, there's two sides to see it. But yeah, definitely, I can understand the worries of staying up all night playing it or not doing your homework and playing it, although I have different things to say about homework. But to say it's not actually beneficial is wrong because, you know, you just got to look at something like Minecraft and the amount a young person can learn, everything from biomes, and blocks, and diamonds, or ores to actual mathematics and things. And it naturally leads onto PCs and learning how to code things and who knows where that's going to lead, to creating something completely new. So, I worry for the ones that are heavily restricted on screen time. I worry that they're being held a little bit back. You know, that might sound a bit controversial for some people. But when most jobs are digital and you're not allowed to learn, I mean, the young people I see they're so gifted at such a young age in understanding digital things that they're going to be at the forefront of the new technology. So, it's almost like, yeah, I think it should be embraced with both hands. RÉMY: There's an incredible opportunity to learn new things through video games and to be happy and to share, like you said. And I bet our audience is already quite open to video games, but we never know it. I think it could be interesting if you could provide, like, a very simple, not comprehensive list of famous games and the kind of skills and benefits they provide you. You mentioned Minecraft; you mentioned creativity. But what kind of games and skills benefits you? You could say for our audience to understand more about the opportunity that is out there. DAN: Yeah, I mean, there are so many. But yeah, so, if we look at your normal shooter game like Call of Duty, and Fortnite, and things like that, that is for cognitive ability. You know, getting those dexterity in your hands and learning those [inaudible 20:11] of pressing buttons is more than you think. It's really training that brain and getting that brain working really quick. It's proven to boost your brain power, your gray matter. It's actually proven that gaming, in general, just boosts your gray matter. I mean, we all know about doing brain training games, but all games using that brain, you know, it's much more advanced than sitting watching TV. But then if you go into more things like puzzle games, so things from your Tetris all the way through to more advanced ones like Portal or strategy games like Civilization and things, there is so much you're doing. You're boosting that brainpower, and you're thinking all the time. But then you can get into...yeah, back onto the shooter games as well, they help with spatial recognition. So, it's actually helping to spot things from a distance: dangers or things to collect. You can see them, and it actually enhances eyesight. It is proven to enhance eyesight, which is great. Decision-making and leadership skills, which is a key thing people talk about for business, is all there when you're in your team of shooters. You're playing Overwatch or you're playing, you know, any game like that. You know, there's always somebody leading or, you know, saying what should be best, seeing the best strategies in there. Problem-solving comes into all sorts so, obviously, in shooters and things again, I'd- say, but also your Minecraft. You know, you've got to create a certain thing to defeat the dragon or whatever you're doing. There's always something, or if you're building something. But then, of course, your high-end puzzle games and even things like Mario. I mean, they get so complex in the problem-solving to overcome a level. Again, the brain power, and the brain power seeing these young people that they're way more advanced than we were playing games. The games are so intricate and so hard now. One you never hear about is social skills until...I think the pandemic helped that a bit. People started to see, oh, Animal Crossing, it's a great way to connect with people. And, you know, and Roblox as much as it gets a lot of bad press, for young people to connect and play, and lot of it is almost like playground role playing play, and they're playing together. You know, there's games just based in Ikea, and they're shopping, and [laughs] things like that. It's really good for them to be doing that. And health and fitness surprisingly, of course, is in gaming. So, obviously, a lot of Nintendo Switch games are sort of standing up, you know, playing switch sports and things, but then virtual reality is huge for that. And if you've ever tried Beat Saber, that's a real workout, which is really good. But there's loads of boxing ones. There's one that kids play now called Gorilla Tag, where, oh my God, that is such a workout. I have mentees that I work with, and then we'll be like, "Oh, Gorilla Tag," an hour of that, I am exhausted. Because you're just flinging your arms around like a gorilla trying to move fast. It's amazing. SAMI: I saw a post you did recently about there's, like, a Greek mythology level on Fortnite, like, an educational aspect [laughs]. It's so funny because I remember playing God of War on the PS2, and I learned so much about Greek mythology. Everything I know comes from God of War. And so, there's also that educational aspect. DAN: Yeah, exactly. You get this deep dive into something, and you really find what you're interested in. So, I've got a kid, and he loves this game called War Thunder, which is all about planes, World War planes, and he can tell me everything about every plane and what country it's made. He can spot it a mile off. You know, "Oh, that's a Russian plane from so and so. Its weak points are here. It was built by so and so." And it's like, you're a genius, and it's all come from, you know, this game's sparked this real interest. And, you know, like I said, Fortnite brings it in, God of War, of course. Assassin's Creed is amazing for things like that, history, it goes from Egypt times. And they even now have walkthroughs in the game where...this needs to be used in schools. I don't know if schools embrace it yet, but you don't have any of this story and the killings and stuff. You just are going through history and walking through the towns and things like that, which is brilliant. The latest one for Assassin's Creed was Vikings, wasn't it? And that was brilliant because that brought in the UK and how it was when the Vikings came over. There's so much stuff. I've got a young person, and he loves this game called For Honor, which is all about medieval sword fights. And he got such an interest in weapons that he's then become a blacksmith. He's enrolled onto a college course apprenticeship being a blacksmith. He wants to be making armory and swords for movies. You know, he said like, "Look, Lord of the Rings, that's all made properly, isn't it?" I mean, that's [inaudible 24:50] SAMI: Wow. DAN: Yeah, it's amazing. One other thing that the games bring, which I think is amazing, is mindfulness as well. There's a huge thing of that. Yeah, like I said, going back to maybe yourself when you were gaming at night, and you maybe needed to destress and maybe take your mind off something, you can get into a game and almost...there's a thing called the grind in the game. Minecraft has it a lot, where you've just got to get yourself a hundred diamonds, or whatever [laughs]. So, it's like, you can almost turn your brain off and just do that, you know, and it can be so super relaxing. And you can get into this thing called flow state. A lot of driving games are like that. If you hit every corner perfectly, you're kind of just in this dream-like state where you just...everything's going well. And that brings a euphoria, too. There's so many good things. But now there's loads of games that are actually based around mindfulness. Tetris is one that's been proven for that. But I don't know if you've heard a more recent one called PowerWash Simulator. Now, this game was one of my most favorite for the last couple of years. All you're doing is washing stuff with a power washer. But the way it works, it gives you a little ding when you've cleaned something properly, like a [vocalization]. And it just...you stand back and look at your job. Honestly, it's amazing. But now Oxford University are doing a full study on it because they realize how beneficial it is to relaxing and chilling out, you know, and just making yourself just feeling happy when you need to just de-stress. It's amazing. RÉMY: I can totally relate. I remember a few years ago, I played GTA 5, and GTA 5 is the kind of game famous for arbitrary violence or all this kind of stuff we hear in the media. But I remember me playing and sometimes I wanted to play just to take a bike and to go on the road and to see a sunset. And, of course, we could argue that I can see the sunset out there, but, in a game, it's just a piece of art. At work, recently, we just had a conversation about beautiful games. So, we weren't interested in all the features or how the game would work but just how beautiful it is. And sometimes we just play video games because they're beautiful. And so, they could provide so much on the intellectual level, on the skills, but also, just as piece of art, just beautiful things made by beautiful artists. DAN: Yeah, it is amazing when you see that. And yeah, I get that completely with GTA. It gets a lot of bad reputation, you know, and story-wise, it is very adult. But, you know, it's the biggest game in the world for a reason. And, you know, like you said, you climb the mountain, you look at the view, you know, it is such a lovely thing to do. There was a game, Red Dead Redemption. I had a young lady I was mentoring, and she was situationally mute, which means, you know, she couldn't talk to anybody. She used to type her responses to me. But she loved Red Dead Redemption, loved horses. And she actually created a group from all around the world, where they would all meet her on a Friday in the game, and she would take them on horse trails. And so, this is all in the game, and she would just take them around to beautiful spots, do nice little jumps with the horses, setting up camp, you know, and, I mean, that's [inaudible 28:08]. It's amazing. And yeah, she ended up making a horse game on Roblox, and that doing really well, and her actually working for Roblox themselves. So, yeah, you know, it all inspires them to work on that. And, I think, sorry, I'm going on tangents here, but also, as you say, appreciating art. There are so many different sides to gaming. A lot of people used to think gaming is just coding, and I don't want to be a coder. That's confusing. I don't want to do that. If you look at the credits that roll on a main game, and they go on for, like, about an hour. There are so many different jobs from artists, storyboard writers, level designers, musicians. There's everything there. The coders are just one part of it. So, as I said before, there are so many career opportunities there, either starting up your own business as a self-employed person or getting involved in it. One I love...a lot of the neurodivergent people I work with [inaudible 29:07] is being a games tester. Because the first thing my son ever does is, if he gets a game, he tries to break it. He tries to find where he can walk through a wall, or something like that. So, it's like that job would be ideal for you. It's like, it's amazing. And that's a job. That's a really important job as well. SAMI: Yeah. When you talk about these stories, they are inspirational. Like, I feel like almost, like, a flutter in my heart as you talk about this kid who maybe felt he has kind of no hope or very little opportunities to actually honing in on this Viking game and then being able to go and become a blacksmith, or this other person you mentioned who's now with Roblox. Yeah, I almost wish, like, they had more publicity around them. And maybe we're kind of doing some of that work now. What would you say is your biggest success story? DAN: I guess MindJam in itself I think is just, I mean, it's way bigger than me now. Obviously, it was born from this idea of giving young people the time and the respect. They are doing something that they love to do and is beneficial. That's what I found was everybody...even when I was teaching, we used to have this connection with the kids, and I used to work one-to-one with the, you know, special education needs, young ones. And a great connection talking about gaming, and their eyes would light up. They would talk about their week, and how they were feeling, and what they achieved. But then it would always be, in the back of my mind, we need to get back onto what we're supposed to be doing and, you know, I need to tick these boxes. And there's always something wanted from them. And it's the same if they go and see a health service. There's always something that they want from that young person. Yet if you just approach them and say, "You know, let's do what you want to do." It's child-led. It's low demand, and let's see where that takes us. That's where we got to discovering about the blacksmith thing. And that's why we've got young people making albums and things with MindJam. You know, it goes anywhere. I've got one young person who shows me Tai Chi, you know, that's our MindJam session. It started off from Rocket League. So, it can really go anywhere. But yeah, sorry, going back to the big success, it is every day now I get a message saying how one of my mentors has helped a young person to help the whole family. That is just the best thing in the world. You know, this is something we've created, and we work hard. We work really hard to make sure we've got the best people. You know, and we're well-trained, and informed, and everything. To hear that it's really making such a difference, and, you know, some people say we're saving lives, and, you know, I just have to pinch myself. Me and my wife we were just like, we can't believe it really how amazing it is. But we're just on a mission now to make sure it's accessible for as many people who need it. SAMI: Yeah, I've seen some of the reviews on your website, and they're heartwarming. But, like, it kind of makes sense, right? Like, for some people, this is the only place that they feel safe. They feel comfortable. You imagine all the cortisol that's going through someone when they're in that fight or flight moment, and there's lots of stress and anxiety. And they enter into a gaming world, and they can escape. And all of a sudden, that reduces. You're dealing with a different person. You're dealing with someone who feels happy, who feels content. And then, you're opening up their mind to have other conversations, you know, like you say. I really recommend it to our listeners. Go and check out the stream. You do kind of...I've seen you've done a few episodes of streaming with other mentors. And it's fascinating to see how all of you, whilst you're playing, are in a conversation about, "Oh, how was your week? And how's that been going?" And, you know, something happened over there. And it's like, you're just in a more of a relaxed state to have those conversations. DAN: Yeah, you know, it's been used before, you know, LEGO therapy is kind of like that. You know, that's what MindJam is in a way is play therapy, but there's so much more you can do with the digital platform. And we're at an amazing age as well, where most bits of software are free. I'll click on like, you know, if they want to look into 3D modeling, it's easy to get a copy of Blender. If you want to get into Unity or Unreal Engine, I mean, there's always into...and it's all, you know, what a wonderful time. When we were younger, if I wanted to get into game design, it was so complicated. You didn't know where to start where, you know, so yeah, it's really amazing. And another thing that I love as well is the mentors that work for us. Most of them are really [inaudible 33:28]. I struggled when I was in my early twenties, and I remember seeing a counselor. And it felt like they had no idea what they were...yeah, they're reading from a textbook, you know, and I remember just really patronizing me. And I was just like, you've got no clue. Whereas I think all the mentors we have all said, "I wish MindJam was around when I was a young person." And I thought, that's the key thing for me, their empathy, their understanding. We don't have to solve it straight away. It's just being there and going, "Yeah, that is hard. Yeah, you know, you'll be okay though. And there's, you know, you're not on your own here." And, you know, I think that is...so many people seem to have to try and heal people straight away. And it's like, no, people just need time to talk, and it's the same as adults as well. Yeah, it could just carry on really to all ages really, couldn't it? SAMI: Yeah. And you've also got that buy-in, right? Whereas, you know, I think of myself perhaps going to therapy at that young age. I didn't really buy into it because I was sitting there with an adult who I didn't really know what we were doing. And I was just kind of there for a conversation. And here you've got...you're doing something that they like, and they enjoy. To put my parent and adult hat back on [laughs] because it's something I want to pick your brains on, right? So, working in the tech industry and working in coding, I've read articles about games, which kind of it says that they're more and more...you see it maybe more on the games on the mobile phone. So, they're employing, like, these kind of gambling tactics, so a lot of the stuff where it's treasure chests. And what is it? On Fortnite, it's the packs. On FIFA, it's also, like, you open up the pack and you see what players you get. So, that sort of stuff I also find scary where I feel like you have from the industry...so, whilst you're using the industry in this way, is the industry itself there to promote and perpetuate the benefits that come from games? Or are they looking, I want to get people in; I want to get them hooked; I want to use these gambling techniques, A/B testing, whatever it is? DAN: From all big companies, we get both sides, obviously. So, you got your unscrupulous ones that, oh, go for it. You loot boxes. But I think more and more, especially with young people, they're more and more aware. They're far more savvy than we are in these things. And the good one is EA with, you know, FIFA. They get review bombed because as soon as someone's putting in loot boxes and things, people are just like, you're just after our money. This is a con. It's pay to win. Mobile games are the worst for it, of course. You know, they're quick cash-making things. Again, instead of, like, saying, "All gaming is evil. We should never do it," it's being aware and being aware of what these games are trying to do, which, again, when you're looking at a young child, is having shared gaming experiences. So, you can go, "Ah, can you see what they're doing here? You know, they've hooked us in. We've played this for two minutes, and we've had free play. And now they're asking us to pay five pounds for extra things. That's a bit of a con, isn't it?" And, you know, you can actually bring that awareness, and then they're not going to fall for things like that. But at the other side of it, I see firsthand...I've luckily enough to work closely with Sony. One of their great companies is called Media Molecule. I don't know if you've heard of them. They did LittleBigPlanet, and lately, they had a game called Dreams, which is actually making games on a PlayStation, which is really cool. But they're so accessible. It's all about, you know, making everybody happy, giving people the keys to creativity, and really help making everything accessible. Again, they worked with this wonderful, wonderful artist who created characters, character designs. They'd never met her. She was so socially anxious. She never could leave her house but was actually one of their top artists that they would send the work, send the brief. She'd send this amazing art back, and then they'd pay her. They didn't have to come into the office nine till five for no reason whatsoever. And there's a lovely side, and, of course, there's a business unscrupulous side. And yeah, again, bring that education of that. This is what I think should be in schools. Instead of avoiding the whole issue, is actually talk about being toxic gamers and what that means, and how to deal with toxic gamers, and how not to be a toxic gamer yourself. For those that don't know toxic gamers, it's just people that are really, really mean to everybody, which seems to be a set thing that people do, especially to a new player. It's like, learn how to encourage people in. And there's now games coming out where they ban people straight away if they're being toxic, and it's all about helping that new player feel like part of the team. But again, yeah, let's say if this was actually brought into education, so then we learn about loot boxes and, you know, pay-to-win type games, then young people would be on that same wavelength. They would get it, either that or it would make gaming so lame that no one would play gaming anymore because it's in schools [laughs]. Like, oh, it sucks now [laughs]. SAMI: Yeah, I think that that way that you embrace kind of what gaming is and you say, well, actually, we can see that it's got a benefit. We can see that it's positive. How do we get the absolute most out of this? How can we not hide, stick our heads in the sand to the issues that might be there? And how can we then say, "Let's use this?" And I think, I mean, my mom will be listening to this podcast for sure. But I think it's something which it's quite disruptive what you're doing. I really do feel that way kind of dabbling in gaming, working as a consultant in the coding industry. I actually teach neurodivergent kids as well on the side. And I'm actually mentoring another kid in coding as well. And what you're doing, as I said at the beginning, it's mind-blowing, and we could talk to you for hours. We have a little chat on this podcast, which listeners can't see. And I asked Rémy, like, "Do you have any questions before you want to wrap up?" And Rémy was just like, "I just want to keep listening. I'm loving it." And I'm exactly...I feel like we can listen to...I think me and Rémy game and we dabble here and there as well ourselves. So, it's definitely something which speaks to us so much. But I've got to thank you so much for your time, for taking the time to jump on with us, give us such an insight into the work that you're doing with MindJam. Let's talk about the BAFTA Young Game Designers Award Ceremony Open Day. Give us some info. DAN: Oh yeah. Well, this is a lovely thing. I've luckily enough to be involved with BAFTA on this for a few years. An early success of MindJam was I was nominated as Mentor of The Year and finalist for Mentor of The Year for BAFTA in 2021. And they run this thing called Young Games Designers every year, and it's brilliant because they do...it's two sides to it. One is actually making a game, but then, of course, not all young people are ready to make a game. And, you know, so the other side is a games concept where you could just send in sketches, ideas, things like that. And that's really accessible for lots of young people we work with, of course. But yeah, in July, I don't have the date; it's early July, we have the award ceremony, which is on this Saturday. But then on the Sunday at BAFTA in London, it's an open day for families to come. You have to apply and get a ticket. I'm sure you guys can put the link on here later on. But yeah, MindJam will be there, but there's loads of game places. I think TT Games will be there who make the LEGO games. And there's all sorts of...we have D&D there. We have all sorts and talks on how to get into the industry and things like that. So, it's really a great thing to come to if you're a young person who's interested in gaming. SAMI: That's really cool. So, parents, if you're listening, save up all that screen time so you can use it. A month's worth of screen time [chuckles] at the BAFTA Awards, Young Game Designers Awards Ceremony in the Open Day in London. If people want to get hold of you, Dan, where's the best place? They've heard this. They're inspired. They feel like they've got someone who would benefit from your services. Where's the best place to get in touch? DAN: If you go to our website, it's mindjam.org.uk, and you can email us at [email protected]. And I think you said this podcast is international, isn't it? So, we do offer sessions all around the world. We have mentors in America, in Australia, in Japan, all over the place basically. MindJam is universal. So, wherever you are, get in touch. And if you're interested in being a mentor as well, get in touch as well, so... SAMI: Definitely, I highly recommend. And I've already got people I can think of that I'm going to be passing your details on to. Listeners, listeners, listeners, our lovely listeners, no one likes missing out on things. Remember that flight you missed? The train that passed you by? Your partner's birthday? I've been there, by the way; I missed one recently. It's a horrible feeling. I cannot deal with you missing out on these things, but I can make sure that this feeling doesn't come about when it comes to our podcast. So, move your thumb. Yes, you, move your thumb. Hit that subscribe button. I can guarantee you, you will never miss one of our podcasts. And you'll hear amazing guests, just like Dan, as we get them in, and we have great chats together on the Giant Robots on Tour podcast. You can find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected]. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Check her out at mandymoore.tech. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Bye.   AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.

In the latest episode of the "Giant Robots On Tour" podcast, hosts Rémy Hannequin and Sami Birnbaum welcome Marc G. Gauthier, a solopreneur and startup coach, who shares his journey from software development to becoming the founder and developer of The Shadow Boxing App. Marc describes how his interest in software engineering began at a young age with QBasic and evolved through various leadership roles at companies like Drivy (now Getaround) and Back Market. His early passion for gaming led him to learn coding, and over time, he naturally transitioned into management roles, finding excitement in organizing and leading teams while maintaining his love for building products. During the episode, Marc discusses the challenges and intricacies of scaling startups, emphasizing the importance of balancing speed and reliability in software development. He recounts his experiences in leadership positions, where he faced the dual task of managing rapid team growth and maintaining software efficiency. Marc also shares insights into the startup ecosystem, noting that most startups struggle to achieve success due to a combination of market timing, team dynamics, and resource management. His own venture, The Shadow Boxing App, represents his attempt to return to hands-on coding while leveraging his extensive experience in startup coaching and advising. Marc also touches on the role of AI in the future of software development, expressing cautious optimism about its potential to augment human workflows and automate repetitive tasks. He advises current and aspiring developers to embrace AI as a tool to enhance their capabilities rather than a replacement for human ingenuity. Marc concludes by highlighting the importance of realistic expectations in the startup world and the need for continuous learning and adaptation in the ever-evolving tech landscape. Getaround (https://getaround.com/) Follow Getaround on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/getaround/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/getaround), X (https://twitter.com/getaround), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/getaround), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/getaround/). Back Market (https://www.backmarket.com/en-us) Follow Back Market on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/back-market/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/BackMarketCom), X (https://x.com/backmarket), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/backmarket). The Shadow Boxing App (https://shadowboxingapp.com/) Follow Marc Gauthier on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcggauthier/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript: RÉMY:  This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, the Giant Robots on Tour series coming to you from Europe, West Asia, and Africa, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Rémy Hannequin. SAMI: And I'm your other host, Sami Birnbaum. RÉMY: If you are wondering who we are, make sure you find the previous podcast where we introduced the Giant Robots on Tour series by throwing random icebreakers at each other. And find out that Jared likes it when someone takes the time to understand someone else's point of view. Joining us today is Marc G Gauthier, a Solopreneur and Startup Coach. Marc, you used to be VP of Engineering at Drivy, now known as Getaround, and also Director of Engineering at Back Market. You also have been a coach and advisor to a startup for over a decade. Currently, your current adventure is being the Founder and Developer of The Shadow Boxing App available on the Apple App Store. We always like to go back to the start with our guests. Everyone has a story, and we are interested in your journey. So, Marc, what led you into the world of software engineering in the first place? MARC: Hello. Well, happy to be here. And, yeah, I started getting into software development quite a long time ago. I actually learned software development with QBasic when I was something like seven. And, from there, I just kept on learning, learning, and learning and got into school for it, then worked in different startups, and then moved into more leadership position management. And I'm now, like, coaching people and building my own product. What do you want to get? Because it's broad. I've been doing it for quite a while. Like, I don't think the QBasic days are that insightful. The only thing I remember from that time is being confused by the print comment that I would expect it to print on my printer or something, but it didn't; it just printed on the screen. That's the only thing I have from back then. SAMI: Why at seven years old? And I'm taking you back too far, but at seven years old, I was probably collecting Pokémon cards and possibly like, you know, those football stickers. I don't know if you had the Panini stickers. MARC: Oh yeah, I was doing that as well. SAMI: But you were doing that as well. But then what drove you at that age? What do you think it was that made you think, I want to start learning to code, or play around with the computer, or get into tech? MARC: [laughs] Yeah. Well, I remember, back then, I really wanted a computer to play games. Like, I had a friend who had a computer. He was playing games, and I wanted to do that. So, I was asking my mom to have a computer, and she told me, "Yeah, you can have one." And she found a really old computer she bought from a neighbor, I think. But she told me like, "I don't know anything about it. So, you have to figure it out and set it up." And she just found someone to kind of help me. And this person told me to, like, take the computer apart. She taught me a bit of software development, and I kind of liked it. And I was always trying to change the games. Back then, it was way easier. You could just edit a sound file, and you would just edit the sound file in the game, so yeah, just learning like this. It wasn't really my intent to learn programming. It just kind of happened because I wanted to play video games really. SAMI: That's really cool. It's really interesting. Rémy, do you remember how...how did you first get...do you remember your first computer, Rémy? RÉMY: My first computer, I think I remember, but the first one I used it was, first, a very long time ago. I discovered that it was an Apple computer way, way later when I discovered what Apple was and what computers were actually. And I just remember playing SimCity 2000 on it, and it was amazing. And we had to, you know, cancel people from making phone calls while we were on the computer because of the internet and all the way we had to connect to the internet back then. And after that, just, I think, Windows 95 at home. Yeah, that's the only thing I can remember actually. Because I think I was lucky, so I got one quite early. And I don't really remember not having one, so I was quite lucky with that. And so, I was always kind of in the computer game without being too much [inaudible 05:02] [laughs]. SAMI: Yeah, I think that's similar to me as well. Like, it's interesting because my initial introduction to computers would have been watching my older brothers kind of play computer games and actually being told to get out the room, or like, you know, "We're busy now. Don't bother us." And then, what actually happened is when they left the room, I managed to play what they were playing, which was the first ever GTA. I don't know if anyone ever played this, but it is so cool if you look back on it. You could probably find emulators online, but it was, like, a bird's eye view, like, way of operating. And it was probably also that drive where you get frustrated on a computer because you want to do something, so, like you were saying, Marc, where you went to edit the sound files because you want to change something. You want to do something. I definitely think that is something which I felt as well is that frustration of I want to change this thing. And then, that kind of gets into well, how does it work? And if I know how it works, then I can probably change it. MARC: Yeah. And once you figure out how things work, it's also really exciting. Like, once you figure out the initialization file on Windows, like, you can edit, like, what level is unlocked right away. It's kind of cheat codes but not really. And there are some really fun ones. Like, I would edit sound files for racing games. And, usually, it's just a base sound file, and then they would pitch shift the sound to make it sound like an engine. So, if you record your voice, it's just really funny. RÉMY: So, Marc, you mentioned moving to management positions quite early. Do you remember what made you do this move? Was it for, like, a natural path in your career, or was it something you really wanted from the first part of your career as a developer? What happened at this moment? MARC: Yeah, that was not completely planned. Like, I don't think I really plan my career precisely. It's just something that happens. So, I joined Drivy after, like, I was already a software engineer for, like, five years at that point. I joined as a lead backend engineer. I did that for three years. And after three years, the company went from...I think there was, like, three software engineers to a dozen. There was a need for more structure, and the CTO, at the time so, Nicolas, wanted to focus more on products. And it was hard to do both, like do the product side, the design, the data, and do the engineering, the software, and so on. So, he wanted to get a bit away from software engineering and more into product. So, there was a gap in the organization. I was there. I was interested to try, and I was already doing some more things on the human side, so talking to people, organizing, internal communication. I kind of liked it. So, I was excited to try, give it a try. It was really interesting. I found that it was a different way to have an impact on the team. I just kept doing it. And my plan was to keep doing it until I'm bored with it. And I'm still not bored with it, even though you kind of miss just actually building the software yourselves, actually coding. So, that's also why I'm trying something different right now with my mobile app adventure. SAMI: Right. So, on the side, you've got this Shadow Boxing App, which, in my dedicated research, I downloaded and had a go with it. MARC: Did you actually try it, or did you just click around? SAMI: I did a proper workout, mate. I did. I put myself as, like, the absolute beginner. I did it on my MacBook Pro. I know it's built for iPad or iPhone, but it still worked amazingly well. And it kind of reminded me why I stopped doing boxing because it's hard work. MARC: [laughs] Yeah, it is. SAMI: It's not a gimmick this thing, right? So, it's like, the best way to describe it is it's essentially replacing if I was to go to the gym and have a trainer who's telling me kind of the moves to make or how to do it, then this kind of replaces that trainer. So, it's something you can do at home. It was really cool. I was surprised, actually. I thought, at the beginning, it's not going to be that interactive, or it won't actually be as hard or difficult as a workout, and it really was. So, it's, yeah, it was really cool, really interesting to try it. And going into that, you say you wanted to get back more into coding, and that's why you are doing this kind of, like, app on the side, or it allowed you to kind of do a bit more coding away from the people management. You've been involved in a lot of startups, and I actually often get...as consultants, when we work at thoughtbot, we get a lot of people who come with different startup ideas. When you look back at all the startups you've been involved with, do you think more startups are successful than those that fail? Or have you seen a lot of startups...actually, people come with these great ideas; they want to build this amazing product, but it's actually really hard to be a successful product? MARC: I think it's [inaudible 10:22] how to have the right idea, be at the right spot at the right time, build the right team, get enough momentum. I think most startups fail, and even startups that are successful often can be the result of a pivot. Like, I know companies that pivoted a bunch of times before finding any success. So, it's really hard actually...if I take my past four companies, only two are still alive. Like, the first two went under. Actually, there's even more companies that went under after I left. Yeah, it's just really hard to get anything off the ground. So, yeah, it's complicated, and I have a lot of respect for all the founders that go through it. For The Shadow Boxing App, I worked on it for the past three years, but I'm only working on it almost full-time for the past two months. And it was way safer. I could check the product-market fit. I could check if I enjoyed working on it. So, I guess it was easier. I had the luxury of having a full-time job. Building the app didn't take that much time. But to answer your question, I think, from my experience, most startups fail. And the ones that succeed it's kind of lightning in a bottle, or, like, there's a lot of factors that get into it. It's hard to replicate. A lot of people try to replicate some science, some ideas. They go, oh, we'll do this, and we'll do that. And we use this technique that Google uses and so on, but it's never that straightforward. SAMI: Yeah, I'm so happy you said that because I think it's a real brutal truth that I'd also say most of the startup projects that I've worked on probably have failed. Like, there's very few that actually make it. It's such a saturated market. And I think, I guess, in your role as advising startups, it's really good to come in with that honesty at the beginning and to say, "It's a big investment if you want to build something. Most people probably aren't successful." And then, when you work from that perspective, you can have, like, way more transparent and open discussions from the get-go. Because when you're outside of tech...and a lot of people have this idea of if I could just get an app to do my idea, I'm going to be the next Facebook. I'm going to be the next, you know, Amazon Marketplace. And it just kind of isn't like that. You've got these massive leaders in Facebook, Amazon, Google, Netflix. But below that, there's a lot of failures and a massively saturated market. So, yeah, just, it's so interesting that you also see it in a similar way. MARC: What I saw evolve in the past 10 years is the fact that people got more realistic with it. So, maybe 10 years ago, I would have people coming to me with just the most ridiculous idea, like, you know, I'll do Airbnb for cats. And really think, yeah, I just need a good idea, and that's it. But now I feel like people kind of understand that it's more complicated. There's way more resources online. People are more educated. They also see way more successes. Failures are also a bit more advertised. We saw a bunch of startups just go under. It feels like every month I get an email from a tool I used in the past saying, "Oh, we're shutting down," and so on. So, I think it's not as bad as 10 years ago where weekly I would have just people asking me, "I want to build this app," and the app would be just the most ridiculous thing or something that would be really smart, but it's really like, "Oh, I want to do, like, food delivery but better than what exists." It's like, yeah, that's a really good idea, but then you need...it's not only software. There's logistics. There's so much behind it that you don't seem to understand just yet. But, as a coach, so, what I'm doing is I'm helping startups that are usually before or after series A but not too large of startups just go to the next stage. And people are really aware of that and really worried. Like, they see money going down, market fit not necessarily being there. And they know, like, their company is at risk. And especially when you talk to founders, they're really aware that, you know, everything could be collapsing really quickly. If they make, like, three really bad decisions in a row, you're basically done. Obviously, it depends on the company, but yeah, people are more aware than before, especially nowadays where money is a bit harder to get. Let's say two years ago, there was infinite money, it felt like. Now it's more tight. People are more looking at the unit economics precisely. So, people need to be more realistic to succeed. RÉMY: What's the kind of recurrent struggle the startups you coach usually face? Apparently, it quite changed in the past decade, but maybe what are the current struggles they face? MARC: It really depends. It's kind of broad. But, usually, it would be, let's say, a startup after their first round of funding, let's say, if you take startups that are looking for funding. So, you usually have a group of founders, two to four, usually two or three, that are really entrepreneurs that want to bootstrap some things. They're builders. They're hacking things together, and they're really excited about the product. And, suddenly, fast forward a few years, they're starting to be successful, and they have to lead a team of, you know, like, 50 people, 100 people, and they weren't prepared for that. They were really prepared to, like, build software. Like, especially the CTOs, they are usually really great hackers. They can, like, create a product really quickly. But, suddenly, they need to manage 30 engineers, and it's completely different, and they're struggling with that. So, that's a common problem for CTOs. And then, it creates a bunch of problems. Like, you would have CEOs and CTOs not agreeing on how to approach the strategy, how to approach building a thing. What should be the methodology? Something that worked with 3 engineers around the table doesn't work with 50 engineers distributed in 5 countries. And if it's your first time being a CTO, and often founders of early-stage startups are first-time CTOs, it can be really hard to figure out. MID-ROLL AD: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops. RÉMY: In your past companies, so you've been VP and CTO. So, in your opinion, what's the best a VP or a CTO can bring to a scaling startup? What are your best tips to share? MARC: I guess it depends [laughs], obviously, like, depending on the stage of the company, the size of the company. For instance, when I was at Drivy, at some point, the most important thing was scaling the team hiring, and so on. But, at some point, we got acquired by Getaround, and the priorities got shifted. It was more like, okay, how do you figure out this new setup for the company and the team? Like, what is good? What is bad? How do you communicate with the team? How do you get people to stay motivated when everything is changing? How do you make sure you make the right decisions? And then, when I joined Back Market, Back Market when I joined, I had a team of a bit less than 12 engineers reporting directly to me. And after a bit more than a year, I had 60, and I hired most of them. So, here the challenge was just scaling insanely fast. Like, the company is really successful. Like, Back Market is selling refurbished electronics in a mission to, you know, provide a viable alternative to buying new electronics. So, it's basically, do you want a smartphone that is both cheaper and more ecologically viable? And most people would say yes to that. So, a company is insanely successful, but it's really hard to scale. So, at that point, the role was, okay, how do you make sure you scale as well as possible with a lot of pressure while still leaving the team in a state that they're able to still build software? Because it's just really chaotic. Like, you can't, like, 5X your team without chaos. But how do you minimize that but still go really fast? SAMI: Yeah. So, not only did I try that Shadow App. I actually went on that Backup website. What's it called? It's not called Backup. What's it called again? MARC: Back Market. SAMI: Back Market. Thank you. Yeah, it was really cool. I checked my old iPhone SE from 2020, which I've kept for about...over three years, I've had this iPhone. And they said they would give me $72 for it, which was really cool. So, it sounds like a really cool idea. MARC: That's something we worked on, which is, basically, if you have any old phones in your drawer, it's a really bad spot for them. And so, there's a service. You go on the website. You say, "I have this, I have that; I have this, I have that." And either we buy it from you, or we just take it away from you, and we recycle them, which is much better than just having them collect dust. SAMI: Yeah, no, it's a great idea. What interested me when you were speaking about kind of these different positions that you've been in, I was almost expecting you to talk about maybe, like, a technical challenge or code complexity difficulty. But, actually, what you've described is more people problems. And how do we scale with regards to people, and how do we keep people motivated? So, I guess using that experience, and this might be counterintuitive to what a lot of people think, but what do you think is the hardest thing about software development? I know there could be many things. But if you had to pick something that is the most difficult, and maybe we can all have an answer to what we think this is, but starting with you, Marc, what do you think is the hardest thing about software development then? MARC: What I saw is how do you build something that works for enough time to bring value to the customers? So, it's easy to hack something together pretty quickly and get it in front of people, but then it might not be reliable. It might break down. Or you could decide to build something perfect and spend, like, two years on it and then ship it, and then it's really stable, but maybe it's not what people want. And finding this balance between shipping something fast, but shipping something that is reliable enough for what you're building. Obviously, if you're building a health care system, you will have more, like, the bar will be higher than if you build, like, Airbnb for cats. Finding this balance and adjusting as you go is really hard. So, for instance, when do you introduce caching? Because, obviously, caching is hard to do right. If you don't do it, your site will be slow, which can be okay for a time. But then if you introduce it too late, then it's really hard to just retrofit into whatever you already have. So, finding the right moment to introduce a new practice, introduce a new technology is tricky. And then, like, I talked a lot about the people, and it's also because I spent quite a bit of time in leadership position. But, at the end of the day, it will be the people writing the code that gets the software to exist and run. So, having people aligned and agreeing on the vision is also key because unless I'm the only developer on the project, I can't really make all decisions on things that are going to get built. So, figuring out how to get people motivated, interested in just building in the same direction is really important. It's really easy. Like, one thing with Drivy, when I was there, that was really fun to see, like, many people have this reaction, especially the more senior people joining the company. They would see the engineering team, and they were really, really surprised by how small it was because we were being really, really efficient. Like, we were paying really close attention to what we would work on. So, kind of technology we would introduce would be quite conservative on both to really be able to deliver what is the most important. So, we were able to do a lot with, honestly, not a lot of people. And I think this is a great mark for success. You don't need a thousand people to build your software if you ask the right question, like, "Do I need to build X or Y?" and always having these discussions. RÉMY: What's your opinion on that, Sami? SAMI: Yeah, I guess it changes. Like, for example, today, the hardest thing about software development was just getting Jira to work. That has literally ruined my whole day. But I've found, for me, what I find is the most difficult thing to do is making code resilient to change. What I mean by that is writing code that's easy to change. And a lot of that, I guess, we try to work on at thoughtbot, as consultants, is following kind of design principles and best practices and certain design patterns that really make the code easy to change. Because that, I think, when I'm writing code is the biggest challenge. And where I feel when I'm working with our clients one of the biggest things they can invest in, which is difficult because there's not a lot of visibility around it or metrics, is ensuring that code that's written is easy to change because, at some point, it will. And I've also worked on systems which are bigger, and when you can't change them, conversations start happening about the cost of change. Do we rewrite it from the ground up again? And that opens a whole different can of worms. So, that, for me, I think, is definitely one of the hardest things. How about yourself, Rémy? RÉMY: I don't know about the most difficult. I mean, there are many things difficult. But I remember something that I had to put extra effort, so maybe it was one of the most difficult for me. When I started being a consultant, when I joined thoughtbot was to understand what's the boundary between executing and giving an advice? So, basically, I discovered that when you're a consultant, but it works also when you're a developer in a team, you know, you're not just only the one who is going to write the code. You're supposed to be also someone with expertise, experience to share it and to make the project and the team benefit from it. So, at some point, I discovered that I should not just listen to what the client would say they want. Obviously, that's what they want, but it's more interesting and more difficult to understand why they want it and why they actually need, which could be different from what they want. So, it's a whole different conversation to discover together what is actually the necessary thing to build, and with your expertise and experience, try to find the thing that is going to be the most efficient, reliable, and making both the client and the customers happy. MARC: Yeah. And as software engineers, it's really easy to get excited about a problem and just go, "Oh, I could solve it this way." But then you need to step back and go, "Well, maybe it doesn't need fixing, or we should do something completely different." At some point, I was working with a customer service organization. In their workflows, they had to go on, let's say, five different pages and click on the button to get something to do one action. And so, what they asked for is to have those five buttons on one single page, and so, they could go, click, click, click, click, click. But after looking at it, what they needed is just automation of that, not five buttons on the page. But it's really easy to go, oh, and we could make those buttons, like, kind of generic and have a button creator thing and make it really fancy. When you step back, you go, oh, they shouldn't be clicking that many buttons. SAMI: Yeah, that makes so much sense because just in that example...I can't remember where I read this, but every line of code you write has to be maintained. So, in that example where you've got five buttons, you're kind of maintaining probably a lot more code than when you've got the single button, which goes to, I don't know, a single action or a method that will handle kind of all the automation for you. And that's also, you know, driving at simplicity. So, sometimes, like, you see this really cool problem, and there's a really cool way to solve it. But if you can solve it, you mentioned, like, being conservative with the type of frameworks maybe you used in a previous company, like, solve it in the most simple way, and you'll thank yourself later. Because, at some point, you have to come back to it, and maintain it, change it. Yeah, so it makes a lot of sense. And, Marc, you said you started when you were 7, which is really young. Through that amount of time, you've probably seen massive changes in the way websites look, feel, and how they work. In that time, what's the biggest change you actually think you've seen? MARC: The biggest thing I saw is, when I started, internet didn't exist or at least wasn't available. Like, I remember being at school and the teacher would ask like, "How many people have a computer at home?" And we'd be like, two or three people. So, people didn't have internet until I was like 14, 15, I'd say. So, that's the biggest one. But, let's say, after it started, they just got more complicated. Like, so, the complexity is getting crazy. Like, I remember, at some point, where I saw I think it was called Aviary. It was basically Photoshop in the browser, and I was just insanely impressed by just the fact that you could do this in the browser. And, nowadays, like, you've got Figma, and you've got so many tools that are insanely impressive. Back then, it was just text, images, and that's it. I actually wrote a blog post a few years ago about how I used to build websites just using frames. So, I don't know if you're familiar with just frames, but I didn't really know how to do divs. So, I would just do frames because that's what I understood back then, again, little kid. But it was kind of working. You were dealing with IE 5 or, like, I remember, like, professionally fixing bugs for IE 5.5 or, like, AOL, like, 9, something ridiculous like this. So, building a website just got way easier but also way more complicated, if that makes sense. Like, it's way easier to do most things. For instance, I don't know, like, 20 years ago, you wanted a rounded corner; you would have to create images and kind of overlay them in a weird way. It would break in many cases. Nowadays, you want rounded corners? That's a non-topic. But now you need, like, offline capabilities of your website. And, in a lot of cases, there's really complex features that are expected from users. So, the bar is getting raised to crazy levels. SAMI: Yeah, I always wonder about this. Like, when you look at how the internet used to be and how people develop for the internet, and, like you're saying, now it's more complex but easier to do some things. I don't know if as developers we're making things harder or easier for ourselves. Like, if you look at the amount of technology someone needs to know to get started, it grows constantly. To do this, you have to add this framework, and you need to have this library, and maybe even a different language, and then, to even host something now, the amount of technologies you need to know. Do you think we're making things harder for ourselves, or do you think easier? MARC: Well, I guess there's always back and forth, like, regarding complexity. So, things will get really, really complex, and then someone will go, "Well, let's stop that and simplify." That's why, like, I'm seeing some people not rejecting React and so on, but going a simpler route like Rails has options like this. There's people using HTMX, which is really simple. So, just going back to something simpler. I think a lot of the really complex solutions also come from the fact that now we have massive teams building websites, and you need that complexity to be able to handle the team size. But it's kind of, then you need more people to handle the complexity, and it's just getting crazy. Yeah, honestly, I don't know. I'm seeing a lot of things that feel too complex for...like, the technology feels really complicated to accomplish some things that should be simple or at least feel simple. But, at the same time, there are things that got so simple that it's ridiculous like just accepting payment. I remember, like, if you wanted to accept payment on a site, it would be months of work, and now it takes a minute. You just plug in Stripe, and it works. And it's often cheaper than what it used to be. So, it's kind of...or deploying. You mentioned deploying can be really hard. Well, you don't need to have a physical server in your room just eating your place up to have your website, your personal website running. You just push it to Vercel, or Heroku, or whatever, or just a static page on S3. So, this got simpler, but then, yeah, you can get it to be so much more crazy. So, if you host your static website on S3, fairly simple. But then if you try to understand permissions on S3, then, you know, it's over. RÉMY: I don't know if it's really in the path of our discussion. I just wanted to ask you, so this is the on tour series, where we...so, usually, the Giant Robots podcast used to be a little bit more American-centric, and this on tour is moving back to the other side of the Atlantic with, again, Europe, West Asia, and Africa. You've been part of a company, Drivy, which expanded from France to neighboring countries in Europe. What could you tell our listeners about how to expand a business internationally? MARC: That's a tough question, especially in Europe. Because I know looking from the outside, like, if you're from the U.S. and you look at Europe, it feels like, you know, a uniform continent, but really, it's very different. Like, just payment methods are different. Culture is very different. For instance, when I was working at Back Market in France, one of the branding aspects of Back Market was its humor. Like, we would be making a lot of jokes on the website, and it would work really well in France. Like, people would love the brand. But then you expand to other countries, and they just don't find that funny at all. Like, it's not helping at all, and they're expecting a different tone of voice. So, it's not just, okay, I need to translate my own page; it's I need to internationalize for this market. I guess my advice is do it country by country. Sometimes I see companies going like, oh, we opened in 20 different countries, and you go, how even do you do that? And spend some time understanding how people are using your product or, like, a similar product locally because you would be surprised by what you learn. Sometimes there's different capabilities. For instance, when Drivy went to the UK, there's so much more you can learn. There's the government database that you can look up, and it really helps with managing risk. If people are known to steal cars, you can kind of figure it out. I'm simplifying a bit, but you can use this. You don't have that in France because we just don't have this solution. But if you go to Nordic countries, for instance, they have way more electric vehicles, so maybe the product doesn't work as well. So, it's really understanding what's different locally and being willing to invest, to adapt. Because if you go, okay, I'm going to open in the Netherlands but you don't adopt the payment methods that are used in the Netherlands, you might as well not open at all. So, it's either you do it properly and you kind of figure out what properly means for your product, or you postpone, and you do it well later. Like, right now, I'm struggling a bit with my app because it's open. So, it's on the App Store, so it's open globally. And it's a SaaS, so it's simpler, but I struggle with language. So, it's in French and English. I spoke both of this language, obviously, French better than English. But I think I'm doing okay with both. But I also built it in Spanish because I speak some Spanish fairly poorly, and I wanted to try to hit a different market like the Mexican market that are doing boxing quite a lot. But the quality doesn't seem there. Like, I don't have the specific boxing lingo, so I'm contemplating just rolling it back, like, removing the Spanish language until I get it really well, maybe with a translator dedicated to it that knows boxing in Spanish. Because I work with translators that would translate, but they don't really know that, yeah, like a jab in boxing. In Spanish, they might also say, "Jab." They won't translate it to, like, [inaudible 38:31]. SAMI: Yeah. At thoughtbot, we have one of our clients they wanted to release their app also internationally. And so, we had also kind of a lot of these problems. We even had to handle...so, in some languages, you go from left to right, right to left. So, that kind of also changed a lot of the way you would design things is mainly for people who are going from left to right. I mean, that's thinking kind of more Europe, U.S.-centric. And then, you could be releasing your app into a different country where they read the other direction. So, yeah, a lot of this stuff is really interesting, especially the culture, like you're saying. Do they find this humor funny? And then, how do they translate things? Which, in my head, I think, could you use AI to do that. Which is a nice segue into, like, the mandatory question about AI, which we can't let you go until we ask you. MARC: [laughs] SAMI: So, okay, obviously, I'm going to ask you about your thoughts on AI and where you think we're headed. But I've seen something interesting, which I don't know if this is something that resonates with you as well. I've seen a bit of a trend where the more experienced developers or more senior developers I talk to seem to be a bit more calm and less concerned. Whereas I would consider myself as less experienced, and I feel, like, kind of more anxious, more nervous, more jumping on the bandwagon sort of feeling of keeping an eye on it. So, I guess, with your experience, what are your thoughts on AI? Where do you think we are headed? MARC: That's a big question, and it feels like it's changing month to month. It feels way more interesting than other trends before. Like, I'm way more excited about the capabilities of AI than, like, NFTs or stuff like this. I'm actively using AI tooling in my app. I was using some AI at Back Market. So, it's interesting. There's a bunch of things you can be doing. Personally, I don't think that it's going to, like, make programming irrelevant, for instance. It will just change a bit how you will build things just like...so, we talked about what changed in the past. For instance, at some point, you would need a team of people moving around physical computers and servers and just hooking them up to be able to have a website. But now, most people would just use a cloud provider. So, all those people either they work for the cloud provider, or they're out of a job. But really what happened is most shifted into something different, and then we focused on something different. Instead of learning how to handle a farm of servers, we learned how to, I don't know, handle more concurrency in our models. And I think when I look back, I feel like, technically, maybe, I don't know, 70%, 80% of what I learned is now useless. Like, I spent years getting really good at handling Internet Explorer as a web developer. Now it's just gone, so it's just gone forever. And it feels like there's some practice that we're having right now that will be gone forever thanks to AI or because of AI, depending on how you look at it. But then there'll be new things to do. I'm not sure yet what it will be, but it will create new opportunities. There are some things that look a bit scary, like, or creepy. But I'm not worried about jobs or things like this. I'm a bit concerned about people learning programming right now because, yeah, there's a lot of hand-holding, and there's a lot of tools that you have to pay to get access to this hand-holding. So, if you're a student right now in school learning programming and your school is giving you some AI assistant, like Copilot or whatever, and this assistant is really good, but suddenly it goes away because you're not paying anymore, or, like, the model change, if you don't know how to code anymore, then it's a problem. Or maybe you're not struggling as much. And you're not digging deep enough, and so you're learning slower. And you're being a bit robbed of the opportunity to learn by the AI. So, it's just giving you the solution. But it's just, like, the way I use it right now, so I don't have an assistant enabled, but I usually have, like, a ChatGPT window open somewhere. It's more like a better Stack Overflow or a more precise Stack Overflow. And that helps me a lot, and that's really convenient. Like, right now, I'm building mostly using Swift and Swift UI, but I'm mainly a Ruby and JavaScript developer. So, I'm struggling a lot and being able to ask really simple questions. I had a case just this morning where I asked how to handle loading of images without using the assets folder in Xcode. I just couldn't figure it out, but it's really simple. So, it was able to tell me, like, right away, like, five options on how to do it, and I was able to pick the one that would fit. So, yeah, really interesting, but yeah, I'm not that worried. The only part I would be worried is if people are learning right now and relying way too much on AI. RÉMY: Well, at least it's positive for our job. Thank you for making us believe in a bright future, Marc. MARC: [laughs] RÉMY: All right. Thank you so much, Marc, for joining us. It was a real pleasure. Before we leave, Marc, if you want to be contacted, if people want to get a hold of you, how can you be contacted? MARC: There's two ways: either LinkedIn, look up Marc G Gauthier. Like, the middle initial is important because Marc Gauthier is basically John Smith in France. My website, which is marcgg.com. You can find my blog. You can find a way to hire me as a coach or advisor. That's the best way to reach out to me. RÉMY: Thank you so much. And thank you, Sami, as well. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have any questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected]. You can find me on social media as rhannequin. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening, and see you next time.  AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.

In this podcast episode of "Giant Robots On Tour," hosts Sami Birnbaum and Rémy Hannequin explore mental health in the age of artificial intelligence with Sara Wilder, a Therapeutic Life Consultant and Licensed Clinical Social Worker. Sami shares his own brief foray into psychotherapy before transitioning to tech, highlighting the relevance of mental health in today's rapidly evolving technological landscape. Sara, whose path to therapy was influenced by her personal struggles and a desire to help others, discusses her unique approach as a Therapeutic Life Consultant, which blends traditional therapy with direct coaching and consulting. Sara elaborates on her journey and how the COVID-19 pandemic pushed her towards integrating technology into her practice. She transitioned from in-person sessions to virtual consultations, emphasizing the impact of this shift on mental health and brain function. Sara's interest in AI stemmed from her need to scale her business and her desire to use technology to aid her clients. She discusses her experience with AI tools like ChatGPT, both the benefits and challenges, such as generating relatable content and addressing AI "hallucinations." Sara highlights the importance of using AI ethically and maintaining human oversight to ensure the authenticity and accuracy of AI-generated outputs. The conversation also delves into broader concerns about the impact of AI and technology on mental health. Sami and Rémy discuss the addictive nature of technology and its parallels with substance addiction, emphasizing the need for self-imposed boundaries and emotional intelligence. Sara shares insights into how AI can be a valuable tool in therapy, such as using AI for social anxiety role-playing or to generate conversation prompts. The episode concludes with a discussion on the balance between leveraging AI for efficiency and maintaining human connection, stressing the need for ongoing education and ethical considerations in AI development and deployment. Follow Sara Wilder on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sara-wilder-lcsw-lcas-ccs-9753517b/). Visit her website: sarawilderlcsw.com (https://sarawilderlcsw.com/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript:  SAMI: Yes, and we are back. And this is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, the Giant Robots on Tour series coming to you from Europe, West Asia, and Africa, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Sami Birnbaum. RÉMY: And I'm your other host, Rémy Hannequin. SAMI: Okay, if you're wondering where Jared is, we finally got rid of him. No, that's a joke, Jared, if you're listening. He was my previous co-host. You can go back to our other podcasts. But we've got Rémy on board today. And you could take a look at our previous podcast, where we introduce the Giant Robots on Tour series, where you'll find out about all the different co-hosts. And you can learn more about Rémy's sourdough bread. Joining us today is Sara Wilder, a Therapeutic Life Consultant, Licensed Clinical Social Worker, and Clinical Addictions Specialist. Okay, Sara, this is going to sound a little bit strange, but, actually, once upon a time in my own life, I kind of wanted to be you, not exactly you because that would be even more strange. SARA: [chuckles] SAMI: But before I got into coding and tech, I was interested in psychotherapy. And I started a course and, for different reasons, it didn't work out, and I never pursued that career. But what's really interested us about you is the work and research you're doing around mental health in this new world of AI, artificial intelligence. You have a really interesting talk coming up at the CreativeVerse Conference in North Carolina. And we actually have Fatima from thoughtbot who's going to be presenting at the same conference. And you're specifically talking about prioritizing mental health in the age of AI. And there is so much we want to ask you about this. But before we do, I always like to go back to the start with my guests. Everyone has a story, and I'm interested in your journey. What led you into the world of therapy? SARA: Well, to unpack that, it's, like, probably way too long for this podcast, but in a nutshell, I had no idea what...I did not want to be a therapist when I grew up, so thank you for wanting that more than me. But I landed here, I think, partly just because of, you know, I always wanted to help people. I never really knew what that was going to look like. I thought it maybe was going into nursing or more of the medical side. But really what landed me here and made me stay here and really choose to stay in my profession...because, at one point, I was like, no, I'm not sure I could do this for the rest of my life; this is a lot. But it was really my own suffering. I had to take a really hard look at where I came from, what I had gone through, and why I wanted to just, you know, like, help people, but then try to keep changing how I did that. And I'm glad I chose to stay put in this kind of therapeutic, you know, life. Therapeutic life consultant is a term that I kind of formulated myself because I'm not quite a traditional therapist anymore. I'm not sitting in an office with the couch. We talk a lot about our relationship with our mothers. But I have more of a personality that's direct and kind of coaching. And I want to go more into consulting and help people understand how to do their own healing work using my clinical background of being in diagnostics in different hospital settings, stuff like that. And because I had to do my own work, and I had to understand how to make sense of how my pain and my suffering was holding me back, and how I could turn that really into something that could help me thrive. SAMI: Yeah, I think that's really powerful. I think that's a really powerful place to be able to come from, you know, to be able to kind of take your own challenges and the things that you've struggled with. And it's kind of like almost sometimes you have...the best teachers are the people who've gone through it themselves. And I can imagine that's been quite a journey. If only we had a longer podcast, right? SARA: [chuckles] SAMI: We could go into all our journeys. But it's super interesting. And, specifically, what has then kind of propelled you more towards looking into the tech aspect of it, right? So, I'm assuming...well, AI, at least, is relatively recent. And so, I'm assuming when you started out, it was more, like you're saying, a therapeutic setting, a life coaching setting, and now there's this sort of other angle, which is kind of coming into it. So, how did you end up getting involved or interested in the tech or the AI side? SARA: I am an entrepreneur myself. When we go into what we call private practice, there is an element of business that most of us don't know. They don't really teach you business in social work school, and I kind of had to figure it out. But what really pushed me off that ledge to just figure it out and fly was COVID. And I, you know, went from a traditional office with the couch to being virtual. And it was going to be temporary, but I made the decision, and it was quite a difficult decision, given what I had already experienced in helping people through that transition, you know, going from traditional office spaces to at-home working. But it was, yeah, I really had to understand the impact of technology on my practice, let alone my life. Working from home is a very different lifestyle when it comes to understanding what mental health means. You know, working from home and brain health is a big focus of, you know, what I discuss with my clients and educate them on. But more recently, and this is kind of how I got into the conference, when I started realizing that a lot of my own mental health was...I needed an outlet of creativity of something to be able to help me cope. I realized my business, and my content, and my passion could be that. So, I had to figure out how to scale myself. And I'm still learning AI. I have an assistant, and she helps me. I have to use her to help me use ChatGPT because it is a beast if you don't know not only just learning the program but learning how to use it and also for it to really be authentic and not necessarily something that, you know, the bot just develops content for you, and you don't make it your own. So, it's a big old brain twister. And the concept of perception is very delicate, let alone with AI. But when you bring it into the tech world, it's a completely different type of language. RÉMY: Since you started working with AI, you mentioned ChatGPT, have you noticed answers or generated content that is either incredibly useful and accurate, and, on the other side, other content that might be, I won't say disturbing, but at least not exactly what you would expect from a human? SARA: Yeah, absolutely. It kind of weirds me out to, like...because I use it to kind of help my creative flow, like, if I have a blog post that I need to write. And it's very important for me to, you know, bring myself into my writing. So, when I started with ChatGPT, and it brings up something, and I'm like, who ever says that? Like, no one says that. Like, that's completely maybe like, you know, just it's a little bit unrelatable and a little stiff, I guess, is the best word I can use. And then, I go through the processing of like, okay, let me figure out how I would write this. I feel like it does help me. It does prolong the process a little bit more. But I have also, yeah, so just kind of relatability factor, for me, is the first thing that sticks out. But the other thing that I've learned a little bit more about listening to, you know, other podcasts and just trying to educate myself, which is a funny term because we use this, you know, in my field of mental health all the time, is it comes up with hallucination. So, it will fill in gaps of, you know, whether it be data, or in a statistic, or whether it's just a concept that it kind of makes up to kind of fill and have fillers in what it produces, which I'm still new to understanding what that really means. Like, yeah, it definitely can be some...and it needs to be something that we fact-check as well since it's just pulling from the general abyss of the internet, and that's not always the most accurate, you know, place of reference in general. SAMI: Yeah, I can vouch for the abyss of the internet not always being the best place to find yourself [laughs]. There's some rabbit holes we've probably all been down. But it's so interesting because I find that the world has woken up to the impact that social media has had on everyone's mental health. And it almost feels like that was our first experiment with how tech can really impact us as a society and as individuals. And so, we've kind of seen that experiment and how that's played out, and I would argue we've probably failed. We've probably had this social media wave. And whether you'd look at it from a government perspective or a healthcare perspective, I don't actually think we've handled it well. And it's almost, like, now we're on the cusp of our second experiment, right? This is now, okay, no longer social media. I mean, that is still relevant but put that to the side for a second. And you've got AI coming out with all these chatbots, generative AI, whether that's across images, text, and the impact that is going to have. So, I feel like the space that you're in is huge. I think you spoke before we started recording about, like, there's a mental health crisis. What do you see, or what concerns do you have given what we've seen with social media, the impact AI can have on our mental health? SARA: You know, there's a lot of different points here, but I think I'll just go with the first thing that comes to my mind is the limits. There are not many limits, let alone...so, tech in itself, but just in our own natural human world, as individuals, we have to learn what boundaries are. We have to learn self-imposed limitations or else someone else is going to impose them on us, and that just doesn't feel as good when someone puts their own limitations on our reality. So, when we bring this into tech,...and I also include...since my background is in addictions, I started realizing that correlation between, like, technology, the boom of access to information is really...it's a pleasure concept, is that when we have a thought and we can just go get information about the answer and it's immediate, that immediate gratification teaches the brain like, oh, I can do this. I can handle this myself. We're not looking at the by-product of that anymore. And I think because we're dealing with it, we can't really...we're so in it now. We can't see that like, oh, this could potentially be a problem, because it is. We have become an immediate access world. I mean, even in rural...like, kids in Africa have a TikTok dancing. And they don't have running water in their communities, but they have a cell phone where they can get support. Like, I'm glad they can because that's great access. But they're not necessarily realizing the addictive aspect of what just being interconnected this way has on the brain, let alone the foundational understanding of what boundaries, and self-discipline, or just mental discipline would look like. So, then when you bring this, I think, into the, you know, the AI world, we're already on a shaky ground of abuse of information and having too much information and not knowing how to process it. And I think that's probably been...I know an issue, for me, is that when I have too much information, I can't necessarily ask questions very well because I'm like, what is the question? Like, I know my brain is oversaturated, essentially, with information as well as potentially chemicals at this point because I'm just working so fast, so fast, so fast. And I'm in my mid-thirties at this point. So, a teenager who's already dealing with impulse control issues because they're naturally developing, that gets really complicated very quickly. And that's what, in turn, we call attention deficit disorder, anxiety, autism spectrum. That's a little bit more complicated, but a lot of that intersects to be like, well, what are we dealing with? We're dealing with immediate gratification and a sensory processing issue because we're looking at screens, and our brains don't know how to adapt to that let alone regulate that. SAMI: That makes so much sense. I guess it's because it's kind of a world that we all inhabit, right? As much as we talk about this and sometimes we like to think of the other like we're talking about someone else, I've found this in my own life as well. I'm addicted to my phone in ways, and I'm also seeking that immediate gratification. And it's almost, like you said, that dopamine hit, right? If there's a piece of information I want or there's a video that I want to see, it's there, and it's immediate. And when you say these things, I guess it's kind of...it's a bit scary. And then, I wonder, on a more macro level, why, as a society, do we do this to ourselves? I don't expect anyone on this podcast [chuckles] to have the answer, right? But I'm always interested, like, if we're aware of this and we're cognizant of what's going on, and, Rémy, feel free to jump in on this as well, like, as a society, why are we doing this to ourselves? SARA: Now, by no means is this...like, this is just my answer, and I don't have the answer for everything. But I've had...sometimes as a therapist, you have to fill space and come up with an answer. So, my hypothesis is that it's natural human behavior. I think our brains...we are, you know, survival of the fittest. That's natural. Like, at the end of the day, we're going to fight for our life. And life really comes down, in my perspective, it comes down to, like, we have suffering, and we have pleasure. However, we've learned now that as an evolving, you know, species, that we are one of the only species that can build executive functioning skills in our brains and have different parts of that that we have to kind of understand the baseline. Survival has gotten us so far, and we've made a lot of great headway with that. But pleasure is not sustainable. Pleasure is a beautiful concept to have in life. But when we talk about what's the goal of life, we want to be happy. Happy and pleasure are actually two very different things to the brain. And a lot of it is just a matter of space being used. Pleasure and dopamine is actually a very small part of the brain, whereas happiness expands and is able to circulate chemicals, and synapses, and energy throughout the rest of the brain but that it has to be a conscious choice. And I think a lot of people don't realize, yeah, you're making choices. I'm not saying, like, no one doesn't have, you know, some degree of free will, but if you're dealing with any degree of stress, emotions, cognitive bias in general, you're not making an actual, like, expansive choice about what options you have to expand your consciousness and your brain capacity. RÉMY: I like the way that today we realized that a lot of things related to this is chemicals that we all have, which remove a little bit the guilt when you are addicted, you know, because it can happen to anyone. But also, it's a reminder that it can happen to anyone. So, nobody is immune to that because that's how we're built. And I really like this approach. It's just natural, which means it's okay to feel it. But it's also dangerous to anyone, so anyone should address it. And, again, if you feel like you're losing it and losing to addiction, it feels good to just know that everybody is entitled to, unfortunately, to feel that at some point in their life. SARA: I love that you mentioned that, and that's absolutely one of my goals is to break down the stigma of...when I use the word addiction...and I don't do small talk that well because I'm just like, let's talk about some real things here. This is what's going on. And it's scary to think of, like, addiction and what that means because of how we've seen it. And I don't know what it looks like particularly in the countries that you're from...a little bit. But I know, here in America, it's messy. It's hurtful. It's a lot of suffering. It doesn't make us feel good to even think about that, which is why I try to teach my clients how to manage and regulate that because it does not discriminate. It's your brain. It's doing its natural thing and how you have to train and just learn how to train that. And it can get better, for sure. But yeah, I really try to break through, like, it's not something that we need to keep being scared about because that is actually what gives it its power. It gives that restrictiveness and that isolation and breaks that connection from each other. And that's ultimately what brings us out of an active addictive cycle is connection. SAMI: Yeah, it's really interesting because technology it almost masks that by making you feel really connected. Like, I'm connected to all these people and all these things, but I don't feel that connection. And that really resonates with me when you talk about the difference between pleasure and happiness. So, I hope my parents don't listen to this. But when I was in university, I'm pretty sure I had a gaming addiction. So, I used to live in the loft in my house. I don't know what you'd call it in America. Maybe it's called the attic. I was at the top floor. So, essentially, I had...oh, back then, it would have been a PS3, and I was seriously addicted to Call of Duty, playing online. And I remember doing just all-nighters, like, really often. I remember it got to a point where I would almost have to reset my whole sleep cycle because I ended up in a situation where I'd be awake in the night kind of always playing all night because I couldn't put the game down, and then sleeping during the day. And to get myself back into a normal rhythm, I'd have to force myself to stay awake for 24 hours. And I would even consider myself someone who doesn't have an addictive personality. But when you were saying about the difference between pleasure and happiness, like, it was definitely hitting that dopamine, and it was pleasurable, but I didn't feel happy. Like, once I stopped, then there was all those feelings that Rémy described, which is, oh no, what have I done? I've wasted so much time and all that guilt that comes with it. So, it's really interesting. And I guess it's also a bit like a codependency, which is something I've seen that you've touched on in your work as well, which I understand to be an unhealthy reliance on a human relationship. But I'm guessing we're probably seeing more of that and unhealthy reliance on tech software products and AI. Is that something you're seeing in your therapeutic work as well? SARA: Oh, absolutely. Codependency it's a big topic to unpack. And I'll say it's a balance. We're never going to not be codependent on something because it literally...we're supposed to work together. We need each other to survive and to grow. But the unhealthy parts of it is, I think, because...I'll just speak from my own experience. I was never taught what emotional intelligence was when I was a kid. I grew up in a very middle-class, non-diverse part of the United States, where I didn't understand the foundational, like, what are boundaries? What are emotions? They try to teach you. And I think that's been something that is going to take people a while to understand. But there is an unhealthy part of it because it's just mixed with...and confuse people of what do we actually need to need other people for. And it naturally sends us...I think this is primarily where relationships become a point of the discussion is relationships are necessary. But they're less successful if you don't have a relationship with yourself as a foundation because that's naturally going to help you realize that you don't need this one person. And you don't attach to a person out of necessity and out of survival or else, yeah, you're going to lose a huge aspect of your identity because you didn't have much of one to begin with. And so, that's ultimately what I teach and educate people on when I work with them in session is just what codependency really is. We're going to be codependent on something. I'd rather you be aware of it. Denial is just dangerous in general. But being aware of how these things show up, you have a better of a choice now. And free will comes back to really in your control without less consequence over time or less negative consequence over time. [inaudible 20:44] my brother, though, Rémy. Call of Duty...[inaudible 20:48] the attic, it was the basement, but yeah. It doesn't discriminate against gender, but for men...he's also in the military. So, it was a very good outlet for him before he went, you know, active duty or [inaudible 21:02] and just self-expression. You don't have to talk about things. I don't think this discriminates against country by any means, but I know for America, I try to stay in my lane with just speaking about Americans, is that men have been put in a very tough position when it comes to mental health because society reinforces: keep it together; be the provider; just deal with it, and painted this picture of, like, you don't have and can't express emotions. And then, we wonder why guns are an issue. We wonder why drinking and alcoholism is an issue and, you know, in the male population. MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you’re tight on time and investment, which is why we’ve created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product’s next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at: tbot.io/entrepreneurs. SAMI: So, there's a lot of concerns. There's a lot of worries, and there's, I guess, negativity around tech and AI. Is there any silver lining? You know, some things we're getting from tech as we already know it, perhaps social media but also AI. Is there anything that we can look at and be like, actually, that will enhance our mental health, improve our society? Are there any positive things that you see coming from it? SARA: I love that question because it is a heavy conversation. I tell people, if you're considering therapy, like, you got to consider it's a full-time job to intentionally lean into the heaviness of the reality that we live in. There's a lot going on right now. I kind of surprise myself every day as to why I do have some degree of hope. But I think that's also just because I see people recover every day. I am grateful for that because not everyone gets that experience. If you're working more of a tech job and you're looking more at coding, and data, and screens all day, you don't see change from the human perspective. And if anything, if you go outside these days, it's just tense. We're extremely inflamed. I don't care what country you live in. We're all experiencing the sensory, like, I see it as...I was not good at chemistry, but one's like, when you heat up molecules and they move really fast, like, that's combustion. And it's about to be summer, so it's about to even be literally hotter. I'm not going to say it's going to get worse. But I say that to say I do believe there is a degree of hope because not only do I see it, but I also see...I'm connected to communities who are doing work from what I kind of...is stealth and, like, covert. You're not really going to see goodness and kindness in the abundance of negativity and darkness, but it is there. And I also like to say that I educate people every day where it changes...maybe not everyone's going to change in that regard. But as an individual in a network and a system, if one person's changed, the system automatically changes. And little by little, over time, I think the pendulum will swing back in a place where it's like, oh yeah, no, it really is happening. And I also kind of see it in this mental health crisis. Change comes out of crisis. It's unfortunate, but if we don't have a big enough reason to look at something, then we tend not to fix it, you know, be proactive. I mean, one of my goals is to get from this reactive place into a proactive and preemptive, you know, wellness space for people, but that also does have to be choice. But I think it really has to start with people understanding and committing to themselves and taking care of themselves, which is why I also am hopeful is because that's a lot easier than trying to get other people to change for you. If you can commit and commit to yourself, and taking care of yourself, and prioritizing you being self-focused, not necessarily selfish because a lot of that gets a bad rap of like, oh, I'm being selfish. We do it a lot out of defense, which is why I think it's not that effective. And so, like, oh, I'm just going to be selfish. I'm going to do what's best for me. You're also locking...you're doing that out of reaction typically because you're not realizing like, oh, I feel hurt because this person didn't prioritize me, so now I'm not going to prioritize them. I'm going to prioritize me. And what I mean intention and recovery comes down to like, when people hurt you, you still have to choose not to hurt them and not pull away. And so, I think if we can all understand...and it's a tough concept to stay in your lane. It really is. But if we can all try to stay in our lane and focus on taking care of ourselves, that is what I believe is going to make the most impact. SAMI: And do you feel AI could help with that? Could we use AI? I'm interested how, like, specifically with regards to the tech, could that be part of this? SARA: Absolutely. I think there's some foundational knowledge that needs to be done and work that needs to be done in each individual before AI can just kind of come in without creating, like, more intense dependency on it. But I know there are agencies here locally. I can't remember the name of...I was trying to remember this earlier. I met them at a networking event recently, but an agency who uses AI to help with social anxiety and role-playing when it comes to situational circumstances and exposure. So, me as a therapist, I love doing exposure. I, for the most part, am an exposure exercise for some people is, you know, we open up and talk about, like, these things that people don't feel safe to talk about with their general networks. But AI, I've started kind of dabbling in, you know, I have some clients who deal with, you know, some, like, delusional disorders, schizoaffective disorder, where they didn't grow up in families where any of the, like, really important foundational concepts were discussed, or they were shut down. So, they're naturally trained to just stay in their head. And, in turn, you build a distrust with all the thoughts you have in your brain. And I encourage my clients to have conversations with ChatGPT just to be like, "Hey, what's up? What's going on?" And telling it what it is that they need, to just normalize the communication of being like, okay, I'm a little nervous to go on a date. I don't know what to say. Can you help me with some ideas of what questions to ask to get to know someone? That, I think, is a lot less intimidating sometimes talking with me because my energy is easily transferable. And that can scare some people because I can get quite excited about, like, "Yo, you did that. That's great." And they're like, "Whoa, that's a lot." SAMI: I'm loving your vibes. SARA: Oh [laughs]. SAMI: It's good energy. I'm enjoying it. SARA: Well, thank you. But I have a couple of clients that...talk about an investment, and I've told them this, and I was like, "I am going to pour into you." Because they just never had certain experiences at the right time to build a degree of confidence that would get them to the next place in life, where they realized like, oh, I can do that. Failure is not that bad, and it's different for everyone. But I do think AI can help in that regard. It also can become a little bit challenging. I had a discussion on this with a colleague of mine who works in cybersecurity, and we were talking about AI and the intersection in relationships and the impact on intimacy in relationships, mostly with heterosexual relationships. But there, yeah, it can go a very different direction than hopeful. And it can cause harm or conflict in some relationships because it's easier to talk to a very structured computer bot than it is to a woman per se. But I think it can help as well to build a foundation for people to get to those points where you can be assertive and reflective in your experiences, build emotional intelligence over time to help relationships. RÉMY: At thoughtbot, we have worked on projects that implement AI, and we are becoming more familiar with training models. One thing that concerns us is doing this in an ethical and safe way. What tips would you have for people who are actually creating models and driving change in this space? SARA: I'd say the first thing that comes to my mind, though, and this is kind of going to go into my talk during the conference, how do you know you're connected with your own reality? I think that's the hardest part about the tech world is like, it's the boundary. Your brain does not know the difference between a computer screen and your reality. The biggest difference is your senses. And that's kind of been the...it's what's caused a lot of the problem with tech is that, you know, here we're having this conversation. I can see y'all. I can generally take into account what your environment is like, but I can't experience it the same way as if I was not sitting in the room with you. And I think that is when you teach people how to activate their own realities, you know, teach them about their body and the somatic work, especially with trauma. When trauma is involved, is you have to know how to activate the here and now and train your brain to know what your reality is or else you're going to get lost in the sauce of, like, everyone else's reality, let alone opinions, but especially in the virtual world. So, being able to know your sensory activation, how mindfulness is, that's a huge term, honestly. We could unpack that for 30 minutes itself. But that sensory activation is a huge part of mindfulness is being able to experience a thought that can trigger something of a reaction and being able to effectively detach from it without judgment, you know, it's training. It takes a lot of training, but senses are huge, and being able to, I think, ethically venture into that world of, you know, using the virtual space, using AI to train and be effective. SAMI: Yeah, I want to pick up on something you said before because it kind of scared me [laughs], which I don't mind [laughs] saying that to you, right? Because I've got this fear that probably other people have also considered as well is people say about AI taking jobs. So, as a coder, we know AI is becoming more proficient at coding. Maybe other designers, other people in the tech world have this fear as well so much so I actually mentioned this in a previous podcast. I taught myself some, like, real physical skills because I thought when AI takes my job completely, well, at least I'll be able to do something. I actually taught myself to silicone a bathroom. And if you know, you have those silicone beads that kind of go around a bathroom, so the water doesn't get in between the grating and the tiles. So, I remember when I was learning it, thinking, well, if AI does take our jobs, at least I'll be able to do this. But that's where my brain goes sometimes. And then, when you were mentioning about using it in a therapeutic setting, like, oh, well, it can actually be helpful to chat to an AI bot about certain scenarios that you might be trying to work through in therapy. So, I guess the question is twofold. Number one, do you see AI having a big impact in a therapeutic setting and coming in and almost disrupting that industry? And also, what tips do you have for the majority of people who are now concerned that what is life going to look like, and what is it going to be? And will we all have jobs? SARA: I think what's important is to understand what happens to the individual when fear is at play before we can even get to the bigger question of like, will AI take our jobs? But I'll start from the end. There will be some jobs that are taken by AI. But what you're talking about Rémy is, yes, there is a huge power to know how you can connect with your own life and AI. Even if you have a job that is in tech and can be overrun by AI, you still have value as a human being. However, you're not going to feel that way, one, if you have a lot of fear because we have to understand why you can't connect with that. But because value is an invariant, to value something, you have to be quite intentional with training your brain to understand value, and you can do that if you know what fear does to your brain, and it's...quite simply, we've all heard it. It's the stress response: fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. So, when you're having a perceived threat, it doesn't mean...external is not the only threat. We threaten ourselves all the time with our own thought process based off of the experiences that we've had and trigger our own fear. And your brain essentially is like, hold up, no, we're not going any further. There's a risk here. We're going to stop you. So, this is where a lot of people, like, have those moments. I could stare at a wall for, like, 10 minutes, but it's actually, like, almost two hours if I'm stressed out to the point...because I'm processing too much information, but it's also triggering a stress response for my brain. And we just get saturated and stuck in that moment. So, being able to know, okay, this is happening, then we can actually come back online. So, I use the brain as a computer metaphor quite often. And when we know that we're in that fight or flight response mode, we can in turn engage so that...I actually have an acronym for fear that I'm going to be debuting at this conference. I'll just go ahead and debut it for y'all, a little sneak peek since you guys may or may not be able to be there. So, that fear is...we usually as an acronym, if you've ever heard this, is F everything and run. And I'm going to define it as the F would be the fight response, fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. So, if you know that's going on, you can address it. The E would be engage. So, engage with your present moment, and that's where your body is, the one thing that tends to be in that present moment. And then, the A is accept. A lot of times we have to accept that we're maybe stuck. We may be at a problem. We may need to take a break. Accepting the things that we can't change in that moment is going to make a big difference on how we come back online on our brains and be able to understand, like, AI is a threat, but it's not going to take over everything, right? And then, the R is redirect. So, redirect to something that is going to change your perception of what the original trigger was. And so, I think if people can understand how they work and how the brain is actually self-protecting, it's very, like, it's like, whoa, we're not going to let you do something completely destructive. But it cannot distinguish the severity of the threat, let alone can it not...actually, there's a lot of people who've trained their brain to not experience fear. Fear is what is supposed to keep us safe. So, it is just perceiving like, hey, AI could take our jobs, but it's also not giving you the context that you brought up, Rémy, about it's not going to take everything from us. It's actually supposed to be here to help us in [inaudible 36:23]. And it's also dependent on us. So, if we're creating fear in the AI, then yeah, it's going to learn that, and it, could, I don't know, I can't tell the future in that regard. But we have plenty of things that don't have to be tech-related that AI won't take from us. And a lot of that is the natural world if we can keep it alive and value it enough. RÉMY: I have one question for you. It might not be very in sync with the train of thought we're having because it's more related to the beginning of the episode. But you mentioned sometimes rebuilding confidence with people and building confidence and building the ability to trust yourself and to make your own good decisions. It feels like, to some extent, it can be rebuilding yourself. How do you deal with such a big action, such a big project? I mean, it's something that could take life to do so. SARA: That's a great question. And sometimes it will take people's lives. I don't handle the whole rest of their life. I tell people like, "I'm going to give you some foundational things." And I do a lot of training. I'm very direct, which is why I have that therapeutic life consultant of like, I'm going to take my vast amount of experience, things that people are probably not going to experience and help them build a security in themselves and, over time, prepare them for when they deviate from that. I tell people, like, especially if you have loved ones still living, depression is never going to just leave. The concept...there's no cure. It's being able to be prepared for when things happen in life versus feel completely unprepared. I just came out of a season of grief of, you know, I walked away from a relationship, as well as then trying to still maintain my business, still trying to maintain my clients and those relationships, let alone the relationship with myself, and then put my cat down, you know, like, you know, he was a child. I had him for 14 years. So, like, life is going to continuously happen. So, I'm not trying to figure it all out, but I'm trying to get people back to a point where they can understand how to find security for themselves. Since mental health has been such a taboo topic for a long time, there is quite a bit of backlog, and that's what we're seeing. I don't know what it looks like in y'alls countries, but here in America, there is this rush of people. I need a therapist. I need to go to therapy. And we're at a shortage. Therapists can't necessarily help all, like, at once. And we also have to maintain our own mental health, or we're not going to be very helpful to people. But really, it comes down to how you build that security with yourself and know and not anticipate, but be prepared for when there's something else that happens that disturbs your own peace. Because if you have an understanding of what peace looks like for you, and you can't necessarily control it, but you can influence it, and facilitate it in your life, then you have a stronger foundation to be able to endure, you know, potential loss of a loved one, hopefully, no time soon for anyone here, or out, or listening, but it's just the reality. And that's part of, you know, my story of, I experienced a lot of loss from a young age, and it worked against me for a long time because I had no idea how to process and regulate energy and emotion in my body. And so, what it looked like was me holding on to repressing anger, not having a relationship with the natural emotions that we can't get rid of. You can't get rid of emotions. I wish I could just, you know, vomit them out and just be done with it and be like, okay, cool. We can all be stable. That's just not...that's not going to happen. I think that also is what makes us, you know, a great species and building, you know, great things in this world is emotion. Tech was built off of passion and emotion. Did it cause some disarray and probably hurt some people in the process? Yeah. But I think we can reduce that from happening if people understand emotional intelligence and not just work, work, work, work, work. It's a new age coming to that. And I've, hopefully, been working on myself enough to be able to sustain helping people understand and shifting over to that new type of perspective of we can't do things the way that we've been doing them. We just can't. It's not sustainable. The human species will suffer from it and the earth will as well. SAMI: Yeah, thank you so much, and just for bringing that level of transparency and honesty. It resonates with myself, and I'm sure it will help so many other people who are listening. We could talk to you for hours. I mean, there is so much. And some things we just did not have time to get into. But thank you so much for the time that you've given us. And it's been really insightful to look at AI and tech that we work with as consultants at thoughtbot on a daily basis from this perspective and look at it from this angle. If people want to get a hold of you, where would be the best place? SARA: Finding my website is a big thing. That's just, you know, kind of the portal. So, that's sarawilderlcsw.com. Sara with an out an H. And then, also, venturing into this tech world, I have an app interface now that I have put together to kind of be a centerpiece for mental health resources, not only just, like, hotlines. That information is on my website as well. But if you want to start doing your own work little by little, you know, having a centralized spot as well as not too much information. There's plenty of stuff you can Google about mental health. But this is vetted by me and organized to a point where they can, you know, one worksheet can make a difference, where you're just reflecting and taking, you know, 10-15 minutes to read through it and see how you can apply it in your life. It's called Power in Perspective. SAMI: That's great. Definitely, I recommend go and check it out and check out Sara on her website. And if you can get down to that conference, that is, again, North Carolina called CreativeVerse, and you'll have the opportunity to hear Sara in person as well as Fatima from thoughtbot who's also presenting. If you learned nothing else from today, then just remember: fear has an acronym for F everything and run. I guess that's my big takeaway. You also got a chance to hear about my gaming addiction. No one tell my parents. And you can find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected]. I always leave you the same challenge, and that challenge is to subscribe. We've got some great guests lined up, and you'll hear about it first if you subscribe. And feel free to leave any comments on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. We do check them all, and they're really helpful. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Check her out at mandymoore.tech. Thanks for listening. See ya. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.

Hosts Will Larry and Chad Pytel interview Brock Dubbels, Principal UX and AI Researcher at CareTrainer.ai. Brock discusses how CareTrainer.ai leverages AI to address the current care crisis in elderly populations. He highlights the growing demographic of individuals over 70 and the significant shortage of caregivers, exacerbated by COVID-19. CareTrainer.ai aims to alleviate this by automating routine tasks, allowing caregivers to focus on building meaningful relationships and providing personalized, compassionate care. The platform utilizes AI to manage tasks such as documentation, communication, and monitoring, which helps caregivers spend more time engaging with patients, ultimately enhancing the quality of care and reducing caregiver burnout. Brock elaborates on the specific tasks that CareTrainer.ai automates, using an example from his own experience. He explains how AI can transform transactional interactions into conversational ones, fostering trust and authenticity between caregivers and patients. By automating repetitive tasks, caregivers are freed to engage more deeply with patients, encouraging them to participate in their own care. This not only improves patient outcomes but also increases job satisfaction and retention among caregivers. Brock mentions the alarming attrition rates in caregiving jobs and how CareTrainer.ai’s approach can help mitigate this by creating more rewarding and relational caregiving roles. Additionally, Brock discusses the apprenticeship model CareTrainer.ai employs to train caregivers. This model allows new caregivers to learn on the job with AI assistance, accelerating their training and integrating them more quickly into the workforce. He emphasizes the importance of designing AI tools that are user-friendly and enhance the caregiving experience rather than replace human interaction, and by focusing on customer obsession and continuously iterating based on feedback, CareTrainer.ai aims to create AI solutions that are not only effective but also enrich the entire caregiving profession. CareTrainer.ai (https://www.caretrainer.ai/) Follow CareTrainer.ai on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/caretraining-ai/). Follow Brock Dubbels on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/brockdubbels/). Visit his website: brockdubbels.com (https://brockdubbels.com/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript: WILL:  This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. CHAD: And I'm your other host, Chad Pytel. And with us today is Brock Dubbels, Principal UX and AI Researcher at CareTrainer.ai, which is transforming health care and caregiving with a human-first approach to artificial intelligence. Brock, thank you for joining us. BROCK: Hey, thanks for having me, guys. I'm excited to talk about this. CHAD: Brock, let's get started with just diving into what CareTrainer.ai actually does. You know, so many businesses today are getting started with or incorporating artificial intelligence into their product offerings. And I know that it's been something that you've been working on for a long time. So, what is CareTrainer? BROCK: Well, CareTrainer is an opportunity in the midst of a crisis. So, right now, we have what's called a care crisis for the elderly populations. If you were to look at the age of the North American population and look at it over the next 10 years, about 65% of our population will be over the age of 70. And right now, we are understaffed in caregiving by almost 20%. Caregivers, especially after COVID, are leaving at about a 40% clip. And enrollment in these care programs is down 9%, but yet that older population is growing. And in the midst of this, we've just recently had an executive order called the Older Americans Act, which states that we actually have to reduce the ratio of caregivers to patients, and we need to give more humane interaction to the patients in these facilities, in homes and help them to retain their dignity. Many of them lose their identity to diagnosis, and they're often referred to as the tasks associated with them. And what CareTrainer attempts to do is take many of the tasks out of the hands of the caregivers so that they can focus on what they're good at, which is building relationships, learning and understanding, acting with curiosity and compassion, and demonstrating expert knowledge in the service to caring for patients, either in homes, facilities or even post-acute care. WILL: You mentioned your hope is to take some of the tasks away from the caregivers. Can you go a little bit deeper into that? What tasks are you referring to? BROCK: Let's think about an example. My mom was a public health nurse, and she worked in child maternal health. And these were oftentimes reluctant counseling sessions between she and a young mother or a potential mother. And if she were sitting there with a clipboard or behind a computer screen and looking at the screen, or the clipboard, and doing the interview with questions, she would probably not get a very good interview because she's not making a relationship. It's not conversational; it's transactional. And when we have these transactional relationships, oftentimes, we're not building trust. We're not expressing authenticity. We're not building relationships. It's not conversational. And we don't get to know the person, and they don't trust us. So, when we have these transactional relationships, we don't actually build the loyalty or the motivation. And when we can free people of the tasks associated with the people that they care for by automating those tasks, we can free them up to build relationships, to build trust, and, in many cases, become more playful, expose their own vulnerability, their own past, their own history, and, hopefully, help these patients feel a little bit more of their worth. Many of these people worked meaningful lives as school teachers, working at the fire department, working at the hardware store. And they had a lot of friends, and they did a lot for their community. And now they're in a place where maybe there's somebody taking care of them that doesn't know anything about them, and they just become a person in a chair that, you know, needs to be fed at noon. And I think that's very sad. So, what we help to do is generate the conversations people like to have, learn the stories. But more importantly, we do what's called restorative care, which is, when we have a patient who becomes much more invested in their own self-care, the caregiver can actually be more autonomous. So, let's say it's an elderly person, and, in the past, they wouldn't dress themselves. But because they've been able to build trust in a relationship, they're actually putting on their own blouse and slacks now. For example, a certified nursing assistant or a home health aide can actually make the bed while they're up dressing because the home health aide or certified nursing assistant is not dressing them or is not putting the toothpaste on the toothbrush. So, what we're doing is we're saying, "Let's get you involved in helping with restorative care." And this also increases retention amongst the caregivers. One of the things that I learned in doing an ethnography of a five-state regional healthcare system was that these caregivers there was an attrition rate of about 45% of these workers within the first 30 days of work. So, it's a huge expense for the facility, that attrition rate. One of the reasons why they said they were leaving is because they felt like they weren't building any relationships with the people that they were caring for, and it was more like a task than it was a care or a relationship. And, in fact, in many cases, they described it as maid service with bedpans for grumpy people [chuckles]. And many of them said, "I know there's somebody nice down there, but I think that they've just become a little bit hesitant to engage because of the huge number of people that come through this job, and the lack of continuity, the lack of relationship, the lack of understanding that comes from building a relationship and getting to know each other." And when we're talking about taking the tasks away, we're helping with communication. We're actually helping with diagnosis and charting. We're helping with keeping the care plan updated and having more data for the care plan so that nurse practitioners and MDs can have a much more robust set of data to make decisions upon when they meet with this patient. And this actually reduces the cost for the care facilities because there's less catastrophic care in the form of emergency rooms, prescriptions, assisted care, as well as they actually retain their help. The caregivers stay there because it's a good quality of life. And when those other costs go down, some of the institutions that I work for actually put that money back into more patient care, hiring more people to have more meaningful, humane interactions. And that's what I mean about taking the tasks off of the caregiver so that they can have the conversations and the relational interactions, rather than the transactional interactions. CHAD: One thing I've heard from past guests and clients that we've had in this space, too, is, to speak more to the problem, the lack of staff and the decline in the quality of care and feeling like it's very impersonal causes families to take on that burden or family members to take on that burden, but they're not necessarily equipped to do it. And it sort of causes this downward spiral of stress and quality of care that impacts much bigger than just the individual person who needs the care. It often impacts entire families. BROCK: Oh yeah. Currently, they're estimating that family, friends, and communities are providing between $90 and $260,000 worth of care per person per year. And this is leading to, you know, major financial investments that many of these people don't have. It leads to negative health outcomes. So, in a lot of ways, what I just described is providing caregiver respite, and that is providing time for a caregiver to actually engage with a person that they're caring for, teaching them communication skills. And one of the big things here is many of these institutions and families are having a hard time finding caregivers. Part of that is because we're using old systems of education in new days that require new approaches to the problem. And the key thing that CareTrainer does is it provides a guided apprenticeship, which means that you can earn while you learn. And what I mean by that is, rather than sitting in a chair in front of a screen doing computer-based training off of a modified PowerPoint with multiple-choice tests, you can actually be in the context of care and earning while you learn rather than learning to earn. CHAD: Well, at thoughtbot, we're a big believer in apprenticeships as a really solid way of learning quickly from an experienced mentor in a structured way. I was excited to hear about the apprenticeship model that you have. BROCK: Well, it's really exciting, isn't it? I mean, when you begin looking at what AI can do as...let's call it a copilot. I thought some of the numbers that Ethan Mollick at Wharton Business School shared on his blog and his study with Boston Consulting Group, which is that an AI copilot can actually raise the quality of work, raise the floor to 82%, what he calls mediocrity. 82% was a pretty good grade for a lot of kids in my classes back when I was a Montessori teacher. But, in this case, what it does is it raises the floor to care by guiding through apprenticeship, and it allows people to learn through observation and trial and error. And people who are already at that 82nd percentile, according to Mollick's numbers, increase their productivity by 40%. The thing that we're not clear on is if certain people have a greater natural proficiency or proclivity for using these care pilots or if it's a learned behavior. CHAD: So, the impact that CareTrainer can have is huge. The surface area of the problem and the size of the industry is huge. But often, from a product perspective, what we're trying to do is get to market, figure out the smallest addressable, minimum viable product. Was that a challenge for you to figure out, okay, what's the first thing that we do, and how do we bring that to market and without getting overwhelmed with all the potential possibilities that you have? BROCK: Yeah, of course. I start out with what I call a GRITS model. I start out with, what are my goals? Then R, let's review the market. How is this problem being addressed now? I, what are my ideas for addressing these goals, and what's currently being done? And T, what tasks need to be completed in order to test these ideas? And what steps will I take to test them and iterate as far as a roadmap? And what that allowed me to do is to begin saying, okay, let's take the ideas that I can bring together first that are going to have the first initial impact because we're bootstrapping. And what we need to be able to do is get into a room with somebody who realizes that training caregivers and nursing is something that needs a review, maybe some fresh ideas. And getting that in front of them, understanding that that's our MVP 1 was really important. And what was really interesting is our MVP 2 through 5, we've begun to see that the technology is just exponential, the growth and progress. Our MVP 2 we thought we're going to be doing a heck of a lot of stuff with multimedia reinforcement learning. But now we're finding that some of the AI giants have actually done the work for us. So, I have just been very happy that we started out simple. And we looked at what is our core problem, which is, you know, what's the best way to train people? And how do we do that with the least amount of effort and the most amount of impact? And the key to it is customer obsession. And this is something I learned at Amazon as their first principle. And many of the experiences that I brought from places like Amazon and other big tech is, how do I understand the needs of the customer? What problems do they have, and what would make this a more playful experience? And, in this case, I wanted to design for curiosity. And the thing that I like to say about that is AI chose its symbol of the spark really smartly. And I think the spark is what people want in life. And the spark is exploring, and it's finding something. And you see this kind of spark of life, this learning, and you discover it. You create more from it. You share it. It's enlightening. It's inspirational. It makes people excited. It's something that they want to share. It's inventing. It's creation. I think that's what we wanted to have people experience in our learning, rather than my own experience in computer-based training, which was sitting in front of a flashified PowerPoint with multiple choice questions and having the text read to me. And, you know, spending 40 hours doing that was kind of soul-killing. And what I really wanted to do was be engaged and start learning through experience. And that's what came down to our MVP 1 is, how do we begin to change the way that training occurs? How can we change the student experience and still provide for the institutional needs to get people on the floor and caring for people? And that was our first priority. And that's how we began to make hard decisions about how we were going to develop from MVP 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 because we had all the big ideas immediately. And part of that is because I had created a package like this back in 2004 for a five-state regional care provider in the Midwest. Back then, I was designing what could only be called a finite game. I'm designing in Flash for web. I'm doing decision trees with dialogue, and it's much like a video game, but a serious game. It's getting the assessment correct in the interactions and embedding the learning in the interaction and then being able to judge that and provide useful feedback for the player. And what this did was it made it possible for them to have interactive learning through doing in the form of a video game, which was a little bit more fun than studying a textbook or taking a computer-based test. It also allowed the health system a little bit more focus on the patients because what was happening is that they would be taking their best people off the floor and taking a partial schedule to train these new people. But 45% of those that they were training were leaving within the first 30 days. So, the game was actually an approach to providing that interaction as a guided apprenticeship without taking their best people off the floor into part-time schedules and the idea that they might not even be there in 30 days. So, that's kind of a lot to describe, but I would say that the focus on the MVP 1 was, this is the problem that we're going to help you with. We're going to get people out of the seats and onto the floor, off the screen, caring for people. And we're going to guide them through this guided apprenticeship, which allows for contextual computing and interaction, as we've worked with comparing across, like, OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, Mistral, Grok, trying these different approaches to AI, figuring out which models work best within this context. And, hopefully, when we walk in and we're sitting with an exec, we get a "Wow," [laughs]. And that's the big thing with our initial technology. We really want a wow. I shared this with a former instructor at the University of Minnesota, Joe Gaugler, and I said...I showed him, and he's like, "Wow, why isn't anybody doing this with nursing and such?" And I said, "Well, we are," you know, that's what I was hoping he would say. And that's the thing that we want to see when we walk into somebody's office, and we show them, and they say, "Wow, this is cool." "Wow, we think it's cool. And we hope you're going to want to go on this journey with us." And that's what MVP 1 should do for us is solve what seems like a little problem, which is a finite game-type technology, but turn it into an infinite game technology, which is what's possible with AI and machine learning. WILL: I love, you know, you're talking about your background, being a teacher, and in gaming, and I can see that in your product, which is awesome. Because training can be boring, especially if it's just reading or any of those things. But when you make it real life, when you put someone, I guess that's where the quote comes from, you put them in the game, it's so much better. So, for you, with your teacher background and your gaming background, was there a personal experience that you had that brought out your passion for caregiving? BROCK: You know, my mom is a nurse. She has always been into personal development. By the time I was in sixth grade, I was going to CPR classes with her while she was [inaudible 19:22] her nursing thing [laughs]. So, I was invited to propose a solution for the first version of CareTrainer, which had a different name back in 2004, which we sold. That led to an invitation to work and support the virtual clinic for the University of Minnesota Medical School, which is no longer a thing. The virtual clinic that is the medical school is still one of the best in the country, a virtual stethoscope writing grants as an academic for elder care. And I would have to say my personal story is that at the end of their lives, I took care of both my maternal grandmother in her home while I was going to college. And then, I took care of my paternal grandfather while I was going to college. And, you know, those experiences were profound for me because I was able to sit down and have coffee with them, tell jokes, learn about their lives. I saw the stories that went with the pictures. And I think one of the greatest fears that I saw in many of the potential customers that I've spoken to is at the end of a loved one's life that they didn't learn some of the things that they had hoped from them. And they didn't have the stories that went with all the pictures in the box, and that's just an opportunity missed. So, I think those are some of the things that drive me. It's just that connection to people. And I think that's what makes us humane is that compassion, that wanting to understand, and, also, I think a desire to have compassion and to be understood. And I think that's where gaming and play are really important because making mistakes is part of play. And you can make lots of mistakes and have lots of ways to solve a problem in a game. Whereas in computer-based training and standardized tests, which I used to address as a teacher, there's typically one right answer, and, in life, there is rarely a right answer [laughs]. CHAD: Well, and not really an opportunity to learn from mistakes either. Like, you don't necessarily get an opportunity on a standardized test to review the answers you got wrong in any meaningful way and try to learn from that experience. BROCK: Have you ever taken one of those tests and you're like, well, that's kind of right, but I think my answer is better, but it's not here [laughter]? I think what we really want from schools is creativity and innovation. And when we're showing kids that there's just a right answer, we kind of take the steam out of their engine, which is, you know, well, what if I just explore this and make mistakes? And I remember, in high school, I had an art teacher who said, "Explore your mistakes." Maybe you'll find out that their best is intentional. Maybe it's a feature, not a bug [laughs]. I think when I say inculcate play or inspire play, there's a feeling of psychological safety that we can be vulnerable, that we can explore, we can discover; we can create, and we can share. And when people say, "Oh, well, that's stupid," and you can say, "Well, I was just playing. I'm just exploring. I discovered this. I kind of messed around with a little bit, and I wanted to show you." And, hopefully, the person backs off a little bit from their strong statement and says, "Oh, I can see this and that." And, hopefully, that's the start of a conversation and maybe a startup, right [laughs]? CHAD: Well, there are so many opportunities in so many different industries to have an impact by introducing play. Because, in some ways, I feel like that may have been lost a little bit in so many sort of like addressing problems at scale or when scaling up to particular challenges. I think we trend towards standardization and lose a little bit of that. BROCK: I agree. I think humans do like continuity and predictability. But what we find in product is that when we can pleasantly surprise, we're going to build a customer base, you know, that doesn't come from, you know, doing the same thing all the time that everybody else does. That's kind of the table stakes, right? It works. But somebody is going to come along that does it in a more interesting way. And people are going to say, "Oh." It's like the arts and crafts effect in industrialization, right? Everybody needs a spoon to eat soup, a lot of soup [laughs]. And somebody can make a lot of spoons. And somebody else says, "Well, I can make spoons, too." "And how do I differentiate?" "Well, I've put a nice scrollwork design on my spoon. And it's beautiful, versus this other very plain spoon. I'll sell it to you for a penny more." And most people will take the designed thing, the well-designed thing that provides some beauty and some pleasure in their life. And I think that's part of what I described as the spark is that realization that we live in beauty, that we live in this kind of amazing place that inspires wonder when we're open to it. MID-ROLL AD: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don’t have all year to do extended research. In just a few weeks, thoughtbot’s Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We’ll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts. Maximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint. WILL: You mentioned gamifying the training and how users are more involved. It's interesting because I'm actually going through this with my five-year-old. We're trying to put him in kindergarten, and he loves to play. And so, if you put him around a game, he'll learn it. He loves it. But most of the schools are like, workbooks, sit down; focus, all of those things. And it probably speaks to your background as being a Montessori teacher, but how did you come up with gamifying it for the trainee, I guess you could say? Like, how did you come up with that plan? Because I feel like in the school systems, a lot of that is missing because it's like, like you said, worksheets equal that boring PowerPoint that we have to sit down and read and stuff like that. So, how did you come up with the gamifying it when society is saying, "Worksheets, PowerPoints. Do it this way." BROCK: I think that is something I call the adult convenience model. Who's it better for: the person who has to do the grading and the curriculum design, or the kid doing the learning? And I think that, in those cases, the kid doing the learning misses out. And the way that we validate that behavior is by saying, "Well, you've got to learn how to conform. You've got to learn how to put your own interests and drives aside and just learn how to focus on this because I'm telling you to do it." And I think that's important, to be able to do what you're asked to do in a way that you're asked to do it. But I think that the instructional model that I'm talking about takes much more up-front thought. And where I came from with it is studying the way that I like to learn. I struggled in school. I really did. I was a high school dropout. I went to junior college in Cupertino, and I was very surprised to find out that I could actually go to college, even though I hadn't finished high school. And I began to understand that it's very different when you get to college, so much more of it is about giving you an unstructured problem that you have to address. And this is the criteria under which you're going to solve the problem and how I'm going to grade you. And these are the qualities of the criteria, and what this is, is basically a rubric. We actually see these rubrics and such in products. So, for example, when I was at American Family, we had this matrix of different insurance policies and all the different things in the column based upon rows that you would get underneath either economy, standard, or performance. And I think it was said by somebody at Netflix years ago; there's only two ways to sell bundled and unbundled. The idea is that there were these qualities that changed as a gradient or a ratio as you moved across this matrix. And the price went up a little bit for each one of those qualities that you added into the next row or column, and that's basically a rubric. And when we begin to create a rubric for learning, what we're really doing is moving into a moment where we say, "This is the criteria under which I'm going to assess you. These are the qualities that inform the numbers that you're going to be graded with or the letter A, B, or C, or 4, 3, 2, 1. What does it mean to have a 4? Well, let me give you some qualities." And one of the things that I do in training companies and training teams is Clapping Academy. You want to do that together? WILL: Yeah, I would love to. BROCK: Would you like to try it here? Okay. Which one of you would like to be the judge? WILL: I'll do it. BROCK: Okay. As the judge, you're going to tell me thumbs up or thumbs down. I'm going to clap for you. Ready? [Claps] Thumbs up or thumbs down? CHAD: [laughs] WILL: I say thumbs up. It was a clap [laughs]. BROCK: Okay. Is it what you were expecting? WILL: No, it wasn't. BROCK: Ah. What are some of the qualities of clapping that we could probably tease out of what you were expecting? Like, could volume or dynamics be one? WILL: Yeah, definitely. And then, like, I guess, rhythm of it like music, like a music rhythm of it. BROCK: Okay. In some cases, you know, like at jazz and some churches, people actually snap. They don't clap. So, hands or fingers or style. So, if we were to take these three categories and we were to break them 4, 3, 2, 1 for each one, would a 4 be high volume, or would it be middle volume for you? WILL: Oh, wow. For that, high volume. BROCK: Okay. How about rhythm? Would it be 4 would be really fast; 1 would be really slow? I think slow would be...we have this cultural term called slow clapping, right [laughter]? So, maybe that would be bad, right [laughter]? A 1 [laughter]? And then, style maybe this could be a non-numerical category, where it could just be a 1 or a 2, and maybe hands or slapping a thigh or snapping knuckles. What do you think? WILL: I'm going off of what I know. I guess a clap is technically described as with hands. So, I'll go with that. BROCK: Okay, so a 4 would be a clap. A 3 might be a thigh slap [laughter]. A 2 might be a snap, and a 1 would be air clap [laughter]. WILL: Yep. BROCK: Okay. So, you can't see this right now. But let's see, if I were to ask you what constitutes a 12 out of 12 possible, we would have loud, fast, hand-to-hand clap. I think we could all do it together, right [Clapping]? And that is how it works. What I've just done is I've created criteria. I've created gradients or qualities. And then, we've talked about what those qualities mean, and then you have an idea of what it might look like into the future. You have previewed it. And there's a difference here in video games. A simulation is where I copy you step by step, and I demonstrate, in performance, what's been shown to me to be accurate to what's been shown to me. Most humans don't learn like that. Most of us learn through emulation, which is we see that there's an outcome that we want to achieve, and we see how it starts. But we have to improvise between the start and the end. In a book by Michael Tomasello on being human...he's an anthropologist, and he studies humans, and he studied other primates like great apes. And he talks about emulation as like the mother using a blade of grass, licking it, and putting it down a hole to collect ants so that she can eat the ants. And oftentimes, the mother may have their back to her babies. And the babies will see the grass, and they'll see that she's putting it in her mouth, but they won't see the whole act. So, they've just [inaudible 33:29] through trial and error, see if they can do it. And this is the way an earlier paper that I wrote in studying kids playing video games was. We start with trial and error. We find a tactic that works for us. And then, in a real situation, there might be multiple tactics that we can use, and that becomes a strategy. And then, we might choose different strategies for different economic benefits. So, for example, do I want to pay for something with pennies or a dollar, or do I want a hundred pennies to carry around? Or would I rather have a dollar in a game, right? We have to make this decision of, what is the value of it, and what is the encumbrance of it? Or if it's a shooting game, am I going to take out a road sign with a bazooka when I might need that bazooka later on? And that becomes economic decision-making. And then, eventually, we might have what's called top site, which is, I understand that the game has these different rules, opportunities, roles, and experiences. How do I want to play? For example, Fallout 4 was a game that I really enjoyed. And I was blown away when I found out that a player had actually gone through the Final Boss and never injured another non-player character in the game. They had just done the whole thing in stealth. And I thought that is an artistic way to play. It's an expression. It's creative. It's an intentional way of moving through the game. And I think that when we provide that type of independent, individual expression of learning, we're allowing people to have a unique identity, to express it creatively, and to connect in ways that are interesting to other people so that we can learn from each other. And I think that's what games can do. And one of the hurdles that I faced back in 2004 was I was creating a finite game, where what I had coded in decision trees, in dialogue, in video interactions, once that was there, that was done. Where we're at now is, I can create an infinite game because I've learned how to leverage machine learning in order to generate lots of different contexts using the type of criteria and qualities that I described to you in Clapping Academy, that allow me to evaluate many different variations of a situation, but with the same level of expectation for professionalism, knowledge and expertise, communication, compassion, curiosity. You know, these are part of the eight elements of what is valued in the nursing profession. And when we have those rubrics, when we have that matrix, we begin to move into a new paradigm in teaching and learning because there's a much greater latitude and variety of how we get up the mountain. And that's one of the things that I learned as a teacher is that every kid comes in differently, but they're just as good. And every kid has a set of gifts that we can have them, you know, celebrate in service to warming up cold spots. And I think that sometimes kids are put into situations, and so are adults, where they're told to overcome this cold spot without actually leveraging the things that they're good at. And the problem with that is, in learning sciences, it's a transfer problem, which is if I learn it to pass the test, am I ever going to apply it in life, or is it just going to be something that I forget right away? And my follow-ups on doing classroom and learning research is that it is usually that. They learned it for the test. They forgot it, and they don't even remember ever having learned it. And the greatest gift that I got, having been a teacher, was when my wife and I would, I don't know, we'd be somewhere like the grocery store or walking out of a Target, and a couple of young people would come up and say, "Yo, Mr. Dubbs," And I'd be like, "Hey [laughs]!" And they're like, "Hey, man, you remember when we did that video game class and all that?" And I was like, "Yeah, you were so good at that." Or "Remember when we made those boats, and we raced them across the pool?" "Yeah, yeah, that was a lot of fun, wasn't it?" And I think part of it was that I was having as much fun doing the classes and the lessons as they were doing it. And it's kind of like a stealth learning, where they are getting the experience to populate these abstract concepts, which are usually tested on these standardized choice tests. And it's the same problem that we have with scaling a technology. Oftentimes, the way that we scale is based on conformity and limited variation when we're really scaling the wrong things. And I think it's good to be able to scale a lot of the tasks but provide great variety in the way that we can be human-supported around them. So, sure, let's scale sales and operations, but let's also make sure that we can scope out variation in how we do sales, and how we do customer service, and how we do present our product experience. So, how do we begin to personalize in scope and still be able to scale? And I think that's what I'm getting at as far as how I'm approaching CareTrainer, and how I'm approaching a lot of the knowledge translation that we're doing for startups, and consulting with larger and medium-sized businesses on how they can use AI. CHAD: That's awesome. Bringing it back to CareTrainer, what are some of the hurdles or cold spots that are in front of you and the business? What are the next steps and challenges in front of you? BROCK: I think the big thing is that I spend a good two to three [laughs] hours a day reading about the advances in the tech, you know, staying ahead of the knowledge translation and the possible applications. I mean, it's hard to actually find time to do the work because the technology is moving so fast. And, like I said, we were starting to build MVP 2, and we realized, you know what, this is going to be done for us in a little while. You know, it'd be cool if we can do this bespoke. But why not buy the thing that's already there rather than creating it from scratch, unless we're going to do something really different? I think that the biggest hurdle is helping people to think differently. And with the elder care crisis and the care crisis, I think that we really have to help people think differently about the things that we've done. I think regulation is really important, especially when it comes to health care, treatment, prescription safety. I think, though, that there are a lot of ways that we can help people to understand those regulations rather than put them in a seat in front of a monitor. CHAD: I think people respond to, you know, when there's a crisis, different people respond in different ways. And it's a natural tendency to not want to rock the boat, not introduce new things because that's scary. And adding more, you know, something that is scary to a difficult situation already is hard for some people. Whereas other people react to a crisis realizing that we got into the crisis for a reason. And the old ways of doing things might not necessarily be the thing to get us out of it. BROCK: Yeah, I totally agree. When I run into that, the first thought that comes to my head is, when did you stop learning [laughs]? When did you stop seeking learning? Because, for me, if I were to ever stop learning, I'd realize that I'd started dying. And that's what I mean by the spark, is, no matter what your age, as long as you're engaged in seeking out learning opportunities, life is exciting. It's an adventure. You're discovering new frontiers, and, you know, that's the spark. I think when people become complacent, and they say, "Well, this is the way we've always done it," okay, has that always served us well? And there are a lot of cultural issues that go with this. So, for example, there are cultural expectations about the way kids learn in class. Like, kids who come from blue-collar families might say, "Hey, you know what? My kid is going to be doing drywall, or he's going to be working fixing cars, or he's going to be in construction, or why does he need to do this? Or why does she need to do that? And, as a parent, I don't even understand the homework." And then, there are the middle-class folks who say, "You know what? I'm given these things. They need to be correct, accurate, and easy to read. And that's my job. And I don't see this in my kids' curriculum." And then, there are the creatives who say, "Hey, you know, this has nothing to do with where my kid is going. My kids are creative. They're going to have ambiguous problems that they have to come up with creative solutions for." Then you get to the executive class where, like, these elite private schools, where they say, "My kid is going to be a leader in the industry, and what they should be doing is leading groups of people through an activity in order to accomplish a goal." And those are four different pedagogical approaches to learning. So, I'm wondering, what is it that we expect from our caregivers? And I've got kind of a crazy story from that, where this young woman, [SP] Gemma, who was a middle school student, I gave her the option, along with my other kids, to either take a standardized test on Greek myths, or they could write their own myth. And she wrote this myth about a mortal who fell in love with a young goddess. Whenever they would wrap and embrace and kiss, a flame would occur. One day the mother found out and says, "Oh, you've fallen in love with a mortal. Well, here you shall stay. This shall be your penance." And she wrapped her in this thread, this rope, and dipped them in wax so they would be there forever. But then the flame jumped to the top, and that is how candles were created. And I read that, and I was...and this is, like, you know, 30 years ago, and I still have this at the top of my head. And I was like, "Gemma, that was amazing. Are you going to go to college?" And she says, "No." "No? Really? What are you going to do?" "I want to be a hairstylist." And, in my mind, my teacher mind is like, oh no, no, no, no. You [laughs] need to go to college. But then I thought about it. I thought, why wouldn't I want a smart, skilled, creative person cutting my hair? And, you know, people who cut hair make really good money [laughter]. And the whole idea is, are we actually, you know, empowering people to become their best selves and be able to explore those things? Or are we, you know, scaring them out of their futures with, you know, fear? Those are the big hurdles, which is, I'm afraid of the future. And the promise is, well, it's going to be different. But I can't assure you that it's not going to come without problems that we're going to have to figure out how to solve. And there are some who don't want the problems. They just want how it's always been. And I think that's the biggest hurdle we face is innovation and convincing people that trying something new it may not be perfect, but it's a step in the right direction. And I think Hans Rosling in Factfulness said it very well. He said, "Things are better than they were before, but they're not great." Can we go from good to great? Sure. And what do we need to do? But we always are getting better, as long as we're continuing to adapt and create and be playful and look at different ways of doing things because now people are different, but just as good. CHAD: Brock, I really appreciate you stopping by and bringing your creativity, and energy, and playfulness to this difficult problem of caregiving. I'm excited for what the future holds for not only CareTrainer but the impact that you're going to have on the world. I really appreciate it. BROCK: Well, thank you for having me and letting me tell these stories, and, also, thanks for participating in Clapping Academy [laughter]. WILL: It was great. CHAD: If folks want to get in touch with you or follow along with you, or if they work in a healthcare organization where they think CareTrainer might be right for them, where are all the places that they can do that? BROCK: You can reach me at [email protected]. They can express interest on our website at caretrainer.ai. They can reach me at my personal website, brockdubbels.com, or connect with me on LinkedIn, because, you know, life is too short not to have friends. So, let's be friends [laughs]. CHAD: You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this entire episode along with a complete transcript at giantrobots.fm. WILL: If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. CHAD: You can find me on Mastodon at [email protected]. WILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHAD: Thank you again, Brock. And thank you all for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.

Host Chad Pytel interviews Monik Pamecha, the Co-Founder and CEO of Toma, a company specializing in AI for the automotive industry. Monik discusses how Toma automates phone calls for car dealerships, enhancing customer service and streamlining interactions. Despite advancements in digital communication, phone calls remain crucial in the automotive sector, and Toma leverages AI to improve these experiences significantly. Monik shares his journey in the tech industry, detailing Toma's evolution from experimenting with different AI applications to focusing on voice AI. He explains the challenges and successes faced along the way, highlighting how AI technology has matured since his early work with chatbots in 2016. The conversation reveals how Toma's voice AI quickly gained user traction, validating their focus on this innovative technology. The episode also delves into the practical implementation of Toma's AI solutions in the automotive industry. Monik emphasizes the importance of integrating AI with existing dealership software and the gradual rollout process to ensure effectiveness. He discusses the need for clear communication about AI's role in customer interactions, reflecting diverse responses across different demographics. Monik's insights provide a compelling look at the future of AI in automotive customer service. Toma (https://www.toma.so/) Follw Toma on X (https://twitter.com/toma_voice), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/tomavoice/), or Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/tomavoiceai/). Follow Monik Pamecha on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/monikp/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript:  CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And I'm joined today by Monik Pamecha, Co-Founder and CEO of Toma, which provides AI for the automotive industry. Monik, thanks for joining me. MONIK: Hey, Chad, thanks for having me. CHAD: Obviously, in fact, as evidenced by the guest list that we've had over the last few months, a lot of companies are either integrating AI into their products or starting new companies. And you've been around doing AI for quite a while now. Tell us about Toma. MONIK: Yeah. So, Toma automates phone calls for the automotive industry right now, and we build a lot of different AI products as well. It's an interesting market, but one of the leading users of phone calls for doing business. So, a lot of the business, which is buying cars, you know, the first touch happens over the phone, you know, people bringing in their cars for service, getting updates, and all that, like, mostly happens over the phone, even though you have had websites and apps and all of these around. And to give you, like, an idea of scale, like, there are 290 million cars in the U.S. alone, which is, like, about 90% of the population has at least one car. So, scale is massive, and Toma is making that experience of getting service and just dealing with anything related to automotive, like, 100 times better. CHAD: So, I would encourage people to go to the website and check it out, because, I have to admit, I was a little skeptical, at first, about how good the phone call could actually be. And I was impressed by how natural it was, how it was able to respond in the video demos that I saw. So, how did you know that this was going to be possible? MONIK: I think a lot of it comes from our own experiences, I mean, not with automotive, but with technology. So, I've been in tech for a long time. I mean, I started writing code when I was, I think, 11 or 12, a similar story for my co-founders as well. But I've been doing machine learning research as well in the past. In fact, this was in 2016 when I wrote a paper on this as well, and we built a chatbot that was based on generative models. And, at the time, in 2016, it was really funky. Like, Google had come up with something called Sequence to Sequence, and we were using that to train it on a little bit of data that we had, and we had something that kind of worked. And, at the time, I was thinking that, I mean, when you were working with that, you'd see it, like, go off the rails and, like, do something really stupid. It couldn't even get grammar right. And, at the time, I saw all the holes that I was like, if somebody plugged these, like, you know, this would be phenomenal. Like, this is what it takes for it to work, you know, these are the places, more from a practical experience, right? Like, if you had to take it to production, like, what would you need to fix? And then, six years later, I see that things actually started picking up, right, like, they actually fixed all those holes. And it came back to me, and I was like, all right, this is the time. You know, those were the issues. They're all fixed. Now you can go ahead and build. So, I think a lot of it came from experience as to like, all right, this is what we should build, or this is why we should build, like, in terms of the technology. But we didn't really arrive at this idea, so to speak, you know, at least as a founding team. It was a lot of pivots. CHAD: What was the original sort of idea that you said, okay, we're going to start a company to do this? MONIK: Well, that was very different from this very, very different. So, my co-founder and I, like, most founders, like, the first thing they do is they try to look for problems that they themselves have. And we're like, huh, looks like...what do we have in common? We have some chronic conditions, and we've used diet to, you know, manage them. So, maybe let's build a tool to help, you know, patients manage conditions with, you know, diet recommendations. And we spent six months on that, and it went absolutely nowhere. Also, I think consumer products are just different. They require a different kind of thinking. But, you know, we were just trying to throw something on the wall and pray it sticks. And, you know, it was honestly pretty miserable because we got banned on a bunch of communities on Reddit and Facebook trying to promote it. And, like, all the people who tried our product they just never came back again, and, you know, things like that when you have something that people don't want, right? So, we see that side. I mean, and after that, we go ahead and we try to do...I think it was during it, I don't know, like, when you get a sense of, like, something's not going to work, where, like, then we realized maybe we should stick to what we know best, which is, you know, we're both technical. So, maybe we should do something that's, you know, more relying on those skills than something entirely different, which I think Y Combinator calls it founder-market fit. I think that's also very true. Of course, you can, like, build something for a business you know nothing about, but there must be some compatibility. So, yeah, we started with that, kept on experimenting. And then, I think, at some point, we were so annoyed that we made, you know, a list on Google Sheets. And we're like, all right, let's just, you know, vomit out 10 ideas that we have had, and let's write them all, and let's go after them one by one. Let's spend two weeks until we hit something that, you know, maybe we think has legs. And the third idea or the fourth idea on that was building something with voice AI. And, at the time, even that was, like, just a horizontal platform. That was it. All right, so we go ahead and commit to that. So, if we go through the list, try the first two or three ideas, I think the first thing was...then we went on the other extreme where we're like, all right, let's do something we do all day long, which is, as engineers, we are on call. So, you know, even at, I don't know, 2:00 a.m. in the night if your system is down, you get a pager on your phone saying, "Get on the computer and fix it." And we're like, how could we make that better? That was the first thing on that list. We spent some time trying to do it and, again, we kind of get that feeling. I think the more you fail, I guess, the better you get at detecting failure. I don't know about success but failure for sure it works like that. I think the third or the fourth idea was voice AI, and then we go ahead. We hack a prototype over a weekend and then put it out on...again, the communities that we know how to market were, like, Facebook groups and Reddit. And it picks up. Like, within, like, 3 days, we had 200 demo calls set up. And that just blew our minds because having been on the other side, we're like, oh, this is what it feels like when people kind of want something, what you have. I mean, it's still not clear, right? But -- CHAD: And you put it out there as automated voice assistant for businesses? MONIK: No, actually what we did [laughs], I mean, nobody will want to click that if you put it like that [laughter]. You know, just out of curiosity, I was like, "Hey, you know, I've built this thing. It does this, you know, what do you think? Do you think this has any use for you?" And that's it. Like, people are, you know, messaging me nonstop, like, DMing me that, "Can you please share it with me? You know, I run this business. This might be helpful." It was, like, more genuine. Like, I was just exploring, but, you know, that was a question that I posed. And that had, like, so many people show up, and they're like, "How about you just give us that and we can make money off of this?" And then, we started, you know, digging deeper, and we're like, oh, okay, it looks like you have so many manual processes and across industries. So, we had, like, some people from healthcare, some people from, like, you know, MLMs, multi-level marketing, so many different industries, optometrists, some in construction. Anyway, so we're, like, thinking at that point, huh, okay. Maybe there is something here. Again, no mention of automotive, no mention of dealerships, nothing. We had a single dealership then. And I would say this was, like, about six months. I don't even know how many months ago, but, like, a couple of months ago. I think, at the time, is when we applied to Y Combinator as well. CHAD: So, you applied to Y Combinator with the voice idea. MONIK: Right. And we put something out there. I forget if it was the healthcare idea or the voice idea, but it's probably one of the two. I mean, that's also the other thing about Y Combinator. I think they don't really focus on ideas as much as they just focus on teams, which I think is probably the best practice. You know, we pivoted again [laughs]. But yeah, so we did voice AI, and then spent some time just trying to do everything, right? Trying to build a horizontal layer for voice, where building assistance for all kinds of businesses. And, you know, one of the businesses, at the time, was a dealership. I always like to think of this as an arranged marriage, where, you know, we have the customer. We kind of work through it -- CHAD: So, you had an actual dealership that you were partnered with as sort of a expert in the industry? MONIK: Our first customer, right. And they were very progressive dealers, so they're always trying new things. And, at the time, we were working with a bank. We were working with some healthcare locations as well. We had some construction industry... whatnot. And we were going crazy trying to build something because everybody had these different requirements. And then, in practice, like, if you push AI out in the wild, to make it work, you need a lot of things, like deep domain expertise being one of them. So, that realization is happening, you know, where we're coming to terms with that. And, at the same time, it works really well for the dealership, and they bring another customer. And they're like, "Oh, they also want to use it," and we're like, "Okay, sure. We'll turn it on." Then we do it. And then, it works again. And then, they bring more customers. And then, we're like, wait a minute, you know, like, we're not doing any outreach. We're not pushing out anything, and it seems like customers want it. And then, there are these other places where we're struggling so much. Like, even with healthcare, you know, the regulations in banking and healthcare they slow down, you know, any sort of, like, AI implementations. So, even that world was very different with the automotive space. And you kind of do more of it and then you're like, oh, okay, looks like there is something here, and then we just decide to double down on that space. And then, we go further deep in and you realize, oh -- CHAD: Did Y Combinator...that can be a difficult decision for founders to make. So, did being in Y Combinator help you sort of give you the push to make that kind of bold decision? MONIK: At least from our experience, it's always been that they're, like, get to the truth very quickly, whatever it is, and then make a decision. Do not delay it. I think we were, in fact, slow to do that. I think they were probably pushing people to do it more because we saw companies pivot in our batch, like, two times, three times right before demo day, which is the end of the program. Like, two weeks before, they just completely changed the company, and that's completely okay. CHAD: So, how does an implementation actually happen? How does it roll out to a new customer? MONIK: I mean, this is also very new, right? I think as you come across new customers, you have to adapt the process. But the essence of it is that you first have some data to start, which is, for example, for us, we work with a bunch of call recordings because a lot of our customers are already recording a lot of their calls. So, that gives you, like, some data as to what the experience is like today. Then the next thing is you get an idea of what you know your customers want the experience to be like. And then, you're basically now figuring out the delta between the two. And then, you're configuring the AI agents, making sure, testing it. And then, you have, like, a period of, like, a week or so where you get through all of that. Then you work through integrations with existing softwares. That also, by the way, is another, like, I would say automotive is a sleeping giant. Like, an auto dealership, on average, like, per month will be spending $50, 000 on software. CHAD: Wow. MONIK: Because the whole business runs on software—everything starting from sales, inventory, parts, service, everything, repair orders—all of it comes through that. CHAD: Now, is there a single common platform that a lot of dealers are using? MONIK: Unfortunately, no. There are some major players; CDK Global is one of them, which actually was hacked recently. And it's in, like, over 15, 000 dealerships, and all of them shut down. CHAD: Wow. MONIK: Like, they just couldn't do any business, and they had to come up with creative workarounds. So, it was pretty painful, kind of, like, a COVID, you know, COVID moment for them. And then, yeah, we've been trying to help our dealers, whoever used that software, to, you know, again, come out with workarounds, where the AI is actually capturing all the information. And, you know, instead of dumping it into that system, it's, you know, finding workarounds on how to get it to our dealers. But yeah, so you integrate with them. That is, like, another major step. And they're, you know, they're not the most tech-forward companies so, you know, that can be a little challenging. CHAD: Right. So, they use a lot of software, but they're not necessarily tech for...they probably don't have big IT departments and that kind of thing. And then, the users are probably non-technical. MONIK: Correct. Yeah. The thing about dealers, I think, is that they're so plugged into the business, like, they know everything that is happening in the business. Everybody knows what the bottom line looks, what really will move the needle, what is a good customer experience. They may not be technical, but I don't think it even matters. That's the thing. But yeah, we were talking about, like, the process, so it takes a couple of weeks So, you do, you know, you get all the information from them as to what needs to be done. You integrate into the systems. And then, the next thing that you do is you start slowly, where, for example, when we start taking phone calls for them, we initially start with off hours and overflow. So, when nobody's able to pick up a phone call, we get the phone calls. And that's how you get, like, some training data at the beginning in a safe manner. And then, as the volume increases, you know, you get more confident, and you roll it out to a larger audience. But I think the key thing here is it has to be a gradual process because, even for the customer, it's something so new, like, to have a full-fledged conversation. Like, you can have a phone tree where it's, like, press one; press two. You're used to that kind of stuff, and that's been around for 15 years, and it still is, you know. And it is not the most natural thing, but it continues to exist. So, this is the next, you know, natural evolution of that interface where it's more free-flowing and, you know, less annoying. CHAD: Do all of your customers...when the AI agent answers, does it say it's an AI agent? MONIK: I mean, our recommendation is to always say that. I mean, it's up to the customer, eventually, if they want to say that or not. And, in fact, it is pretty interesting. Demographics make a huge difference. Like, we're live in, you know, all the states, not all but I would say, like, all the major states. And the way people behave with AI agents is so different, you know, Florida, and Michigan, and California, like, we see the call quality. We see the metrics. We see how annoyed people are or how happy they are and things like that. The way they talk is so different. And one of the parameters in that is actually, you know, letting them know that it is an AI or not as well. So, we tweak that based on, you know, where we are. But for the most part, we always say that because we want to set the expectations, right? Because, initially, when we didn't, the most popular question on the call was like, "Are you a human?" CHAD: [laughs] MONIK: And the fact that people are asking it was also pretty insane, right? CHAD: Right. They could sort of tell that something was different. MONIK: Yeah, if you have, like, a long enough conversation because, obviously, it's not human, right? And then, you go, like, five turns into the conversation, and then you realize, okay, it sounds like a human, like, you know, it's speaking pretty quickly. It's giving me the kind of answers I want. But, like, this thing is strange because, you know, humans have a personality now. Like, with AI, like, a lot of the systems, I mean, you can build personality into it, but it still doesn't have a personality, like, the truth is still that. And it does show up, you know, in interesting ways. And, of course, there can be, you know, some sort of mechanistic issues, you know, like, whatever, right, like, what the customer is really used to and then what you actually say. I think the best practice is to almost always declare, like, it's an AI. And that has improved call quality significantly. MID-ROLL AD: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what’s important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode. CHAD: Did you train your own models? MONIK: Yeah, we collected enough data to be able to do that, and we have trained a lot of different components and different models. So, when you think of it, there's not, like, one model that does the whole thing. You have, like, a lot of these small, medium, and large models that do different parts. So, the voice and speech are, let's say, two components. I think the brain of the agent is really the thing that needs the most amount of training because, you know, text to speech and voice, I mean, they have, like, you know, some limits and then, some, you know, business return. Like, after some point, like, there's not really much value to be gained there because if you can transcribe everything, you know, to a certain level of accuracy, all the regions change, you know, accents change. You can always improve. Then it's just expanding scope. But really, with the brain of the agent, you have multiple different models that actually interact with each other, and they're not just LLMs or generative models. You have a lot of different types of things that are going. You know, you're looking up information. You are, you know, validating something. You're making sure if, you know, this is compliant with what, you know, your company's tone is, all of these happening at the same time. And then, these are the different things that you actually really need to train because that's so specific to, you know, the type of business that is happening. CHAD: So, are you also doing your own hosting of the models, or are you using a cloud provider for that? MONIK: Yeah, we use cloud providers. I think having a small team it's insane. I mean, you can host custom models on a lot of these providers now. And then, a lot of them even offer services for you to, like, train and, you know, they take care of the infrastructure as well. I think it's a good thing to rely on it if you're lean and small. There's only so much a few people [chuckles] can do and focus on. CHAD: What are you most focused on right now, either from a business or a product perspective, or, you know, where's your area of biggest risk? MONIK: Of course, there is always, you know, risk of competition. And I guess the real question is, like, where...a lot of popular AI companies get asked this as well, right? Like, what is your moat, right? And then, I mean, I think that is the most obvious risk, right? Where, like, what is stopping anybody else from doing what you're doing, right? And there are certain parts of it, which, you know, you can de-risk. Like, having data and having proprietary data is, like, one of the biggest factors in this, right, of de-risking this. I mean, there's also like, you know, the risk of, let's say, especially in our industry, is, like, taking technology to an industry where, you know, consumers are not pro-technology. You know, they don't want to jump at the best thing that there is, right, especially customer service generally suffers from that, right? Like, people anytime they hear a bot or something and they're like, "Ah, representative agent." So, there's, like, some underlying risk in, you know, human tendencies as to what they want. But, again, to think about it, like, you know, IVRs, which are these interactive voice response systems, they've been around for so long. Nothing about it is natural. It is completely alien to how we interact, but they've been around for so long. So, a lot of times, like, this innovation is actually pushed down from the business to the consumer and not the other way around. It may not be the best experience. It's getting there. So, it's that battle between the two, which I think can delay implementations. You know, some people, like, one of our customers, at one point, we went through the entire deal. And I think the owner of the dealership group just said, "I don't believe in AI." Now, you know, like, it's pretty hard, right? Like, you have the metrics. You have the numbers. You're generating value, but the belief is strongly held. And then, at that point, you know, there's nothing you can do. CHAD: Do you know why they were saying that? Was it like, I don't believe it as in I don't think it can do it, or I don't believe in it as in, like, it's against my ethics, or something like that? MONIK: I feel like it's probably because they've been burned by past experiences of AI. Like, I think chatbots have been around for so long, and a lot of people in the automotive industry have used them. Now, they used to suck. And as I remember in 2016 as well, you know, over the few years that came, like, it was still pretty terrible. So, I think it's some muscle memory from that. And then, also, I think AI has been hyped a lot, and I feel like people just generally discount anything that is hyped. And the opinion is that let's just wait for the dust to settle, and then we'll just pick the winners. So, it's also possible, right? On the adoption curve, like, there's you just hit some people who are probably not on the early or even the mid, right? Maybe on the tail end, which I guess is completely fine and true for any tech adoption cycle. CHAD: And it's true for any product that you're...this is not just an AI company problem. I think it's a startup thing, you know, to find the early adopters and then to move on from there. But you need those early adopters, those champions who are willing to do something new before other people. MONIK: Exactly. And, I mean, yeah, it's just surprising to me how many early adopters, even in...like, there are almost early adopters in every industry. Every business has people who just want to see something, you know, they're just excited about it, like, they're willing to take the risk. And sometimes I'm not even sure why. But, you know, there's just that element of thrill, and then also, you know, beating the market to it and things like that. And once you feel it, you understand the adoption curve initially. Because when you see customers, you see, ah, I see every dealership. Everybody should use us. I mean, as a naive founder, I think that that's what I used to think initially. And then, you know, over time, you get a sense of like, all right, you know, these are the types of customers that you should go after. These are the people who you should talk to first. And you build that kind of muscle as a founder and, yeah, new learnings. CHAD: So, you started with the voice assistant. But are you moving into providing other AI-driven solutions for the automotive industry? MONIK: Right. So, as we work with more dealers, we found out, you know, more areas that can be improved and, you know, gaps in, for example, communication. I think a lot of, like, quality of service really comes from how you can, you know, communicate with your customer. And it's not just about...you could do a good job and, you know, you could just completely destroy your, you know, quality scores because you didn't communicate well enough. And you could do a bad service and still have a great, you know, service, you know, experience by communicating well. So, I think a lot of it is key to communication, and that's our focus: using AI to make it better. Voice is one channel. There are other channels as well. And there are a lot of, you know, communication gaps within, you know, our customers, you know, business set up as well. So, we try to bridge that gap. CHAD: So, since you're focused on communication then, you're probably still leveraging generative AI solutions. MONIK: Oh, a lot of it is, you know, improved by that technology. Like, so I always think, like, great products usually bring in two things, right? One is a necessary evil. Let's say, you know, something that has to be done like a phone system, for example, like, you need people to call in. You need to set up all the numbers, phone trees, whatever, routing. And then, there is AI, which makes that whole process easier. So, I think good products usually have these two things combined, where it lets you do one nasty thing, which, you know, obviously, everybody else can do in a different way. And then, there's this one exceptional thing that you can do. And then, [inaudible 27:04] together, and it makes, like, a great offering for the business. I think that's what we're working towards. CHAD: What do you think about the way things are right now, in general? I do think that there are some companies that are saying, "Well, that great thing is the AI," but they're not necessarily solving a problem that needs to be solved in that way. MONIK: Yeah. I mean, I think to that part, right, the hype is real. Even in my mind, I just discount, like, 40% of the things that people say about AI now. Like, I mean, I would say it's more true than not, like, 60%, sure, but, like, a rough number in my mind is just 40%, and people, like, exaggerate. But, I mean, that's not because, I guess, they're lying. It's because they're, you know, hopeful, right? Because nobody knows, like, in practice. Like, I mean, now that we've done, you know, hundreds and thousands of minutes of AI phone calls, like, that has, like, you know, added to my judgment. And I kind of know, like, you know, what is possible and what is not with even the most cutting-edge stuff there is. I think a lot is possible. But it's unfair to say that, oh yeah, it's as good as a human, for example, right? Like, in certain use cases, that just is not true. It's a different paradigm. It's just a different design interaction that has never existed before. There's nothing human about it. You can try to force it to be as human as you want but then it is forced human. Like, it is still not natural because it just isn't. CHAD: So, I'm getting the sense then that that might not be your north star. That might not be what you're shooting for. MONIK: Yeah, not at all, no. At the end of the day, a tool should drive business outcomes, right? And then, to drive business outcomes, you got to understand what your customer and their users want, for example. You know, I can imagine a world where people will say, you know, when a human picks up the phone, and they're like, "No, I don't want to talk to you. Can you transfer me to a, you know, the virtual agent?" Like, it will happen, right? And it won't be natural. Like, I do not think it will be natural, and it will be different. Because imagine, like, a human having access to all the information at the same time. Like, how would they behave, right? Like, humans behave in a serial manner, and then there is, like, some simplicity to some interactions and some complexity to others. That's not the case with, you know, all the information you have. Like, I already know, for example, if you call me, right, and I'm an AI agent for your business, I know so much about you already, right? Like, I'm not going to act the way, you know, an agent would act who's, like, now pulling up something on the screen, and they're like, "Give me a moment," and then they're reading through your stuff. Like, I already know all the issues you've had, all the conversations you had in the past. So, now I know what's exactly wrong, and, in fact, I'll give you the answer straight up, right? Because I can kind of get ahead and figure out what you really want. CHAD: There's an example in one of the example videos I watched or, actually, I was trying to think, would I ever want to not talk to a person, right? There's an example in one of your videos where you can see the person does exactly what I do on a call. They say their email address is their first name dot last name at gmail.com. And that's not exactly what mine is, but it's like that. And I say that, and most of the people that I talk to on the phone when I say that they...and I think it might be because they're not on a screen that has my first name and my last name on it anymore. Oftentimes, they don't remember my name, or can't see it, or can't understand what I'm saying. But the AI has all the information, and it understood what you were saying, and it just gets it instantly. MONIK: Exactly. Another example of that, right? Let's say, like, you called six times, right? I mean, usually what happens in call centers often is that, like, you get thrown around, different agents pick up, and then maybe the data comes there. I've heard that, like, on existing recordings of, like, humans, where it's like, "I'm calling for the sixth time. Like, do you need me to repeat the same thing again?" And then, they go through the same flow again because that is the policy, for example. And then, they're just so annoyed. Like, with AI, there's no such thing. It's just, you know, one model that's consistent, that's listening to everything. And it's like, even before you say...like, "I see you've called for the sixth time. You know, I'm really sorry that this is happening," and, you know, whatever. Just simple things like that. CHAD: I'm just thinking about those experiences that I've had with customer service that have been that. And, yeah, that's why I think that this is really, you know, has a lot of potential. So, how do you sort of, you know, critics of AI will often point to, like, putting people out of work, right? How do you think about that? MONIK: Yeah. I always, like, to pin it down to, like, evidence, and, I think, at this point, I have enough to talk about this. I think what we've seen with our technology is that a lot of it leads to repurposing of existing talent. So, for example, there are, you know, business development companies that dealerships rely on for inbound and outbound calling. Now, when we free their time up from inbound, like, that's what we focus on right now, and take off all the mundane tasks, like, the agents that they have are now free to do a lot more outbound, which actually drives more sales or, you know, gives a better experience because, you know, people are checking up on them and saying, "Okay, how was your service a week later," right? And the person feels really good. And if there's any problem, they address it, whatever, right? So, I think there is more stuff to do than humans will ever be able to do, and our desires have no end. We will continue to pursue that. So, as you free up something...it's like a race which has no finish line. You get a little bit of lead, but that doesn't mean anything because now you still got to keep going and keep going, and that's what we've seen. So, you know, with service advisors, for example, who would get phone calls in the service department of the dealership all the time, now they don't get calls anymore, right? But they're able to spend more time with people in the store. So, they're actually able to upsell more. So, this kind of efficiencies that you drive, like, they take off the stuff that, you know, you don't want to do all the time and is repeatable to some extent, and then you free them to do things that they couldn't have done before. So, it really is, you know, realizing that there is this endless amount of work that always needs to be done. And here, I took this off your plate, but you still have all this work to do. So, it's just repurposing of, like, talent that's been happening again and again. And, I mean, there is, of course, that's not to say that there is not going to be a loss of job opportunities, things like that, because, you know, it's just part of creative destruction as it is called, right? Where anything new will create some sort of disruption and then, you know, destroy certain things, but then it creates more, you know, on a net basis. That's happening, yeah. I mean, if you think about it, like, I mean, I remember I grew up in India. This was, like, 15 years ago, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago, too. There was somebody who would sit in the elevator, and their only job was to press a button. If you think about it, right? Like, I mean, is that job like, you know, what value is it driving? Of course, like, to some extent, right? And then, they came up with these elevators where you could punch in the numbers, you know, exact floors right at the beginning, and you just walk into the right elevator, and that's done. So, I mean, that job obviously does not exist anymore or does not need to exist anymore, right? But, I mean, I don't know if anybody else in the world has an opinion on that job existing, for example. Like, it's just, over time, when we look back, it just seems, like, obvious that, you know, why were we doing that? We should be doing this other thing. So, I think it's just movement. CHAD: Right. Yeah. I think it is uncomfortable in the moment but, you know, there is a certain trend to the world, aside from AI, aside even from technology, specifically of progress. And, you know, over time, positive comes from that, but that doesn't mean that there's not pain in the meantime. MONIK: There is, yeah. Definitely, there is pain. And I think the real reason why people feel this a lot is sometimes, like, even I make that mistake myself of viewing yourself as, like, stationary in terms of, like, skills and learning. It's like, you are everything you've learned up till now. And, okay, if what I knew up until now is not going to be relevant tomorrow, then what am I going to do? But the thing is that everybody has the capability to learn and improve, and, in fact, even that gets easier and easier with time because technology makes that easier. And then, people are able to do more things than they could do before, learn faster, for example. And it's important to not forget that we have that ability. You know, we can always change and improve, and, in fact, knowing so much makes us even better at knowing more. And that's why we've been able to adapt to every change in history so far; we always have. You know, so that fear is natural. But I think, over time, when we all look back and we're like, oh my God, why were we doing that? You know, like, and we will all be doing different kinds of things. Like, that is guaranteed. That is going to happen. But that fear still exists, and I think that is what causes the pain. It's the anxiety of it. Like, really? Of course, you have to change, you know, tracks. That is very real, but it's not as painful as fear makes it. CHAD: Well, speaking of growing, and changing, and improving, you mentioned that, you know, you and your co-founder are both technical. How have your roles changed as the company has progressed, and what have you learned [chuckles], and have you settled into any sort of roles? MONIK: Yeah. So, I'm the CEO. My co-founder is a CTO. We both used to write code at the beginning. Now only one of us writes code. CHAD: And I'm guessing it's not you [laughs]. MONIK: Yeah, it's not me. Although I do miss it sometimes, but, actually, to be honest, I don't. CHAD: [laughs] MONIK: I feel so happy to have found that, I mean, to have realized that. But yeah, I think, basically, I think now that I understand at least B2B business to some extent, I think you always need to have a clear split of, like, build and sell. And then, of course, there's all this additional stuff that you need to do, but I think these two distinctions need to be absolutely crystal clear because both are full-time jobs. And more than that, you need, like, owners of those spaces, and it's very hard to jump between the two. I mean, if they are solo founders, I mean, it's incredible how they do it if they're able to do both, or they rely on AI, or they rely on, you know, consultants, or contractors, or whatever. But I think those are the two roles. And it came, I mean, I think it was just a natural progression. It's, like, when there's more work than people, I mean, that's usually a good place to be, I think, and that's how you know something is going well. You automatically assume natural roles. Because it's in that moment of, oh no, my list is, like, growing, like, quicker than you know, something, and then I need to jump in, and then you pick up the most natural and important things to you. And then, even if you're not good at, like, you don't have an option. You have to get better at it. For example, selling, like, I never did any sales, ever. Like, I was doing machine learning and distributed systems and whatnot. But I've come to now realize that, okay, that is something that I enjoy that I think I can learn and get better at. And everything I did before, actually, even the engineering mindset helps with sales because it's just a process. So, we kind of assumed our roles when we just had too much on our plate, and we're like, "All right, you'll do this. I'll do this. Okay, fine." And then, we just talk about it, and then, all right, we keep doing it, and then now it just becomes a routine. CHAD: Yeah, how has your team grown? MONIK: Well, we've been two of us now, and we're hiring for a software engineer right now. So, we've been very lean. And I think...and this is also to something that Sam Altman said. I think it was him or I don't know who said that but, you know, you'll probably see the first one-person billion-dollar company. CHAD: Yeah, I think it was, yeah. MONIK: And I think there is some truth to it. Like, I don't know about billion, but, like, maybe a couple of million, a couple of hundred million, like, that might happen sooner. Because we've always tried to stay very, very lean, and I think we've relied on using technology wherever possible. But yeah, that's not to say...we still need people to build. And we are looking for a software engineer because, at some point, there's only so much we can do. CHAD: Yeah. So, what would make someone a good fit for your team in that software engineering position? What are they coming to the table with? MONIK: Everything, I wish. No, I mean, there are some exceptional people. And I think that's exactly what we're looking for is engineers with a founder's mindset because a founder's mindset is always like, you know, give us all the information. We'll make the decisions and figure out like, you know, what needs to be done. And someone who's, of course, exceptionally skilled at technology, at writing code, at building software, but also at understanding like, you know, what to build. I think that is, like, a killer combination and that is what differentiates, like, a great extraordinary engineer from anybody else. CHAD: Well, especially since it's going to be the second developer [chuckles], you're going to have high needs and expectations for that. MONIK: And with startups, right? It's always a little bit of chaos, and it's people who thrive in that chaos. And that's the thing, right? I've worked in, like, a bunch of startups that actually went on to become unicorns. I worked at Turing.com, which I think is...$4 billion, something like that now. But when I joined, there were, like, you know, just 10 people. And every company has problems, you know. And there's always this chaos that ensues, you know, at every stage. But there are some type of people who, like, thrive in that. They just love it. And there are some people who complain about it. I think the ones who complain about it lose that opportunity to grow, and they don't have the mindset to see opportunity in it. And I think those are the people who are absolute amazing, you know, future founders, you know, or even, like, great founding engineers are employees like that because they like that challenge, you know. It's like, this is wrong. Let me go fix it. CHAD: Right. And the reverse is also true. There's a point in a company's life cycle where they need a different kind of person that is more, like, stable [laughs]. MONIK: Well, I don't know. I think I disagree with that. I think, I mean, that's when the company, you know, plateaus. Like, if you bring in more people like that, you...really, like, what is a company? It's just a collection of really smart people. The fact that OpenAI is able to do what Google cannot over the span of six years is because they just do not hire people, you know, of certain caliber, certain mindset. They just keep them out. Again, that's their policy, or even some larger companies. I think the idea is to keep that mindset going and going. It is tiring, right? But it is what drives innovation. Like, that's just the nature of it. CHAD: Well, if what you're describing sounds like someone who's listening, or if someone's in the automotive industry and wants to learn more, where can they do that? MONIK: Yeah, they can reach out to me, you know, my email is [email protected]. So, they could get to us. CHAD: And you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. You can find me on Mastodon at [email protected]. Monik, thank you so much for joining me and sharing the story with me. MONIK: Thanks, Chad. This was great. CHAD: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening and see you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.

Founder Amy-Willard Cross discusses the mission and operations of Gender Fair, the first consumer rating system for gender equality. Gender Fair aims to measure and promote gender equality within consumer-facing companies by utilizing data and the UN Women Empowerment Principles. Amy highlights the importance of transparency and data-driven insights to create social change, emphasizing that gender equality in corporate practices benefits not just women but overall fairness in the workplace. Gender Fair evaluates companies across five categories: women in leadership, employee policies, diversity reporting, supplier diversity, and philanthropy for women. Amy also shares how Gender Fair has incorporated technology to increase its impact, including an app and browser extension that allow consumers to easily access company ratings on gender equality. These tools enable users to make informed purchasing decisions based on a company's gender equality practices. The app features functionalities like barcode scanning and logo recognition to provide real-time information about products. Amy emphasizes the significance of making gender equality data accessible and actionable for consumers, believing that collective consumer power can drive corporate accountability and fairness. Throughout the conversation, Amy discusses the challenges and successes of building Gender Fair, the importance of leveraging economic power for social change, and the role of technology in facilitating gender fairness. She also touches on the broader impact of Gender Fair's work in promoting fair business practices and the potential for future expansions, such as a B2B database for procurement. Gender Fair (https://www.genderfair.com/) Follow Gender Fair on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/begenderfair/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/GenderFair/), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/genderfair). Follow Amy-Willard Cross on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/amy-willard-cross-genderfair/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel, and with me today is Amy-Willard Cross, the Founder of Gender Fair, the first consumer rating system for gender equality. Amy, thank you so much for joining me. AMY-WILLARD: Well, I'm very happy to be talking to robots, giant and small. CHAD: [laughs] We'll try not to smash into each other too much on this show. I think we probably have a lot to learn from each other rather than conflicting. AMY-WILLARD: I think so. CHAD: Let's just get started by digging in a little bit to what Gender Fair actually is in terms of what we mean when we say a consumer rating system for gender equality. AMY-WILLARD: It's about data. So, I was originally a journalist. I've written for a living my whole life: books, magazines, articles [laughs], you know, radio shows. I wanted to do something to promote equality in the world. And I realized that data is one way that you can want to have commercial value. Data has value that isn't, like, just blah, blah, blogging, and also, data can create social change. So, I decided to do something like, you know, we know fair trade has created great change as has, you know, marine stewards certified. And also, I was inspired by something that the Human Rights Campaign, the LGBTQ organization, does, which is called the Guide to Corporate Equality. So, our goal is to measure how companies do on gender and then share that with the public. And I didn't just make this up. We use a set of principles called the UN Women Empowerment Principles, which look at eight different sort of areas of an organization. And so, we created metrics that are based on these UN Women Empowerment Principles and also based on what is findable in the public record. We rate consumer-facing public companies, you know, like Unilever, Procter & Gamble, the shampoos that you use, the cars that you buy, the airplanes you ride on. And we look at five major categories, such as, like, women in leadership. We look at employee policies like parental leave, and flex time, part-time, summer Fridays. I'll be curious to know what you do at Giant Robot. I bet you have good ones. And then, we also look at diversity reporting. Our company is upfront with their attempt to bring more diversity into the workforce and also supplier diversity. I don't know, are you familiar with supplier diversity, Chad? CHAD: I am because we often are a supplier, so... AMY-WILLARD: You are. So, when they ask you if you're diverse...but one way companies, especially the big companies that we rate on this public database, they can make a big impact by trying to buy from women and minority-owned businesses, right? When procurement spending is huge. That's a metric that people may not know as well, but it's one that I would encourage every business to undertake because it's not that expensive. And you could just intentionally try to move capital into communities that are not typically the most rewarded. The last category that we measure is philanthropy for women, and that's important. People say, "Well, why do you measure philanthropy?" One, because the amount of philanthropy that goes to women and girls is 1.5% of all donations, and it used to be 1.8. So, pets get more money than women. I don't know how that makes you feel, Chad, but it doesn't make me feel very happy. I mean, I suppose if you're Monster Beverage and you don't have any women clientele, one, it's okay if you don't score well on your gender metrics; just meet the basic fairness. But maybe Monster Beverage doesn't have to donate to the community of women. But if you're making billions of dollars a year selling a shampoo, I would sort of think it's fair to ask that there's some capital that goes back the other way towards the community of women. So, that's the measurement. So, we could do it...and we do it for small companies like yours, too. I imagine your company would do well from the little bit I've talked to people on your staff. It sounds like you have a lot of women in leadership. And I don't know your policies yet, but I'm sure you...I bet in Massachusetts I know you have parental leave anyway in the state, but you're a more progressive state. But I think this is something that all of your listeners can benefit from is putting a gender lens on their operations because a gender lens is a fairness lens. And it includes usually, you know, this includes people who are not just all the same men, White men. So, it helps all businesses sort of operate in a more fair way to put a gender lens on their operations. And it's not hard to do. CHAD: So, one of the things that jumped out at me, in addition to just the Gender Fair mission, as I was learning about Gender Fair, is that you have an app and a browser extension. And so, that's part of why you're on the show, not only do we care about the impact you're having. AMY-WILLARD: That's right. Yeah [laughs]. CHAD: But you're a tech company. Did you always know as you got started that you were going to be making an app and a browser extension? AMY-WILLARD: Well, yes, that was the beginning because you have data. You have to make it used. You have to make it available, right? Personally, I like to see it on packages. But yes, we've had two iterations of the app, and I'm sure it could always get better and better. The current one has a barcode scanner and, also, it can look at a logo and tell you, "Oh, this soda pop is not gender fair. Try this soda pop, which is gender fair." And it can make you a shopping list and stuff like that. But, you know, tech is only good if people use it, so I hope they do. I mean, the idea is making it more accessible to people, right? I would like to have it as a filter, some easy tech. We've talked to big retailers before about having a filter put on online shopping sites, right? So, if I can choose fair-trade coffee, why can't I choose gender-fair shampoo? I like it when people can use technology to create more fairness, right? If this is a great benefit to us if technology can take this journalism we do and make it accessible and available and in your hand for someone, you can do it in the store, for Pete's sake. You could just go on the store shelf, and that's pretty liberating, isn't it? When you think of it. It should be easy to know how the companies from which you buy are doing on values that you care about. So, I never really thought of it as a tech. I wish it was better tech, but, you know, I'd need millions and millions of dollars to do that. CHAD: [laughs] Had you ever built in any of your prior companies, or had been directly responsible for the creation of an app? AMY-WILLARD: No, but I did actually once when I worked at the major women's magazine in Canada, I did hire the person who created the first online sort of magazine in Canada, and she made money, so I felt good about that. I plucked her from...she was working as sort of tech support at the major...what do you call those? Internet providers in Canada. But no, I had not, and so I relied on experts. I had a friend who was on the board of Southby, and he helped me find a tech team. I went through a few of them and, you know, it's hard to find. Like, where do you go and find people who will build something for you when you're a novice, right? As a journalist, I don't really know anything about building technology, and I certainly wasn't about to start at my age. It was definitely a voyage of discovery and learning, and I don't think I really learned much coding myself. CHAD: That's okay. AMY-WILLARD: That's okay [laughs]. CHAD: But was there something that sort of surprised you that you didn't anticipate in the process of creating a digital app? AMY-WILLARD: Oh gosh. Well, you know, of course, it's difficult, and there's lots of iterations, and there's lots of bugs. And in every business, mistakes are part of what people...in the construction industry, they'll tell you, "Mistakes are just going to happen every day. You just have to figure out how to fix each one." But, no, it's a difficult road. So yeah, I wish I could have coded it myself. I wish I could have done it myself, but I could not. But yeah, it's good learning. And, of course, you know, I think anyone who's going to start building a company with technology...if it were me now 10 years ago, I would have actually done some coding classes so I could just even communicate better to people who were building for me. But I did learn something, but not really enough. But it's a very interesting partnership, that's for sure. CHAD: And there is a lot of online classes now... AMY-WILLARD: Right [laughs]. CHAD: If someone is out there thinking, oh, you know, maybe that's good advice. And there's a lot of opportunities for sort of an on-ramp, and you don't need to become an expert. AMY-WILLARD: No. CHAD: But, like you said, even just knowing the vocabulary can be helpful. AMY-WILLARD: I think that would have been useful. Yeah, definitely useful. But I definitely, like, you learn a little bit as a text-based person. You learn the rigor of just sort of, like, you have to think in ones and zeros. It either is or isn't. That helps. I learned that a little bit in working with tech devs. The last version we did actually white labeled off of someone who had created a technology to do with...it was to do with building communities online. And their project failed, but it had enough backbone that we were able to efficiently build what we needed to on top of what they built. CHAD: Oh, that's really...was it someone you knew already, or how did you get connected? AMY-WILLARD: Yes, they knew one of our partners in New York. We tried it first as a community project. It didn't really work. And then, we realized it could actually hold our data at the same time. So, my first iteration of the app was different. But yeah, anyway, we've built it a couple of times, and I could build it even more times... CHAD: [laughs] AMY-WILLARD: And make it even better and better. CHAD: So, on the sort of company side of you've worked with companies like Procter & Gamble, MasterCard, Microsoft, do you find it difficult to convince companies to participate? AMY-WILLARD: What we do is data journalism. We don't contact the companies. We have researchers. We have journalists go and look through the SEC data and CSR reports and collect the data points on which we measure them. So, no one has to cooperate with us to get the data. It's journalism. It's not opt-in surveys, which is a very common...when I first started, no one was measuring women, and now there's lots of different measurements. And they're often pay-to-play surveys, so they're not really very valuable. Ours is objective and fully transparent journalism. But then afterwards, our business model how we typically used to pay for this is that companies that did well on our index were then invited to be quote, "certified." And this was a business model that was sort of suggested to us at the Clinton Global Initiative, to which I belonged in 2016. And they loved what we were doing, using the free market to drive gender equality. Because, you know, our whole point is that women and people who care about women and equality, we have a lot of power as consumers, or as taxpayers, or as tuition payers, or as donors to nonprofits. And whenever you give money to an organization or a company, you have the right to sort of ask questions about the fairness of that organization. Well, that's our whole ethic, really. I answered that question and came around to a different idea, but yes, no. So, the companies do participate to be certified, and some of them are interested and some of them are not, and that's fine. We do projects with them sort of like when we...we've talked about MasterCard, and we did a big conference with them in New York. This is pre-pandemic. And then, we did a big, global exhibit with P&G, and Eli Lilly, and Microsoft at TED Global, which was very fun. It was all about fairness. And it was great to talk to technologists such as yourself. And we made a booth about fairness in general, not just about women. And we had a fairness game, and it was very interesting to just discuss with people.  I think people like to think about fairness, right? I don't know if you have children, but little children get very interested in the idea of what's fair very early on. Yeah, so some companies participate...now we have companies...we do some work in B2B procurement which is something that your listeners might be interested in thinking about is that just, like, supplier diversity. If I were purchasing your services, your company services, I would ask about the gender metrics of your organization. I already learned they're quite good. So, big companies buying from other companies can put a gender lens on their B2B procurement. And so, that's a project we're doing with Salesforce, Logitech, Zoetis, Andela, which is another tech provider, and Quinnox, which is a similar sort of tech labor force, I believe. And so, we're going to be releasing a database about B2B suppliers. Actually, I should make sure that you get on it. That's a good idea. CHAD: Yes. AMY-WILLARD: That's a good idea because then it's going to be embedded in procurement platforms because this is a huge amount of money. It's even probably more...it could be more money than consumer spending, right? B2B spending. So, I'm excited about working with more companies on that to help promulgate this data and this idea because it's an easy way to drive fairness in a culture. When the government isn't requiring fairness, at least large companies can. And in some countries, actually, the government requires its vendors to do well on gender. Like, Italy now has a certification for gender, the government does, and companies that do well are privileged in RFPs and also get a tax deduction. CHAD: I don't want to say something incorrect, but I think the UK has, like, a rule around equity in pay... AMY-WILLARD: Yeah, absolutely. You're absolutely correct. CHAD: And yet they don't have equity in pay, the data shows. AMY-WILLARD: That's right. And we don't have that in the United States. It's voluntary in the U.S. We measure that, actually, too. That's seven points over a hundred points scale is whether they, one, publish the results of their pay study. In the U.S., though, we do it in a way that isn't rigorous as the way they do it in the UK. In the UK...you're great to remember that, Chad, in the UK, I mean, I wish my government did that. In the UK, companies report on the overall salaries paid to men and the overall salaries paid to women. So, that means if, you know, all the million-dollar jobs are held by men, it shows very clearly, and all the five-dollar jobs are held by women, it shows very clearly there's an imbalance. And in the United States, we just say, "Oh, well, is the male VP paid the same as a female VP?" That's sort of easier to do, right? CHAD: When we've talked with some larger companies about different products we're creating or those kinds of things, sometimes what I hear is they're looking for big wins, comprehensive things. And so, I was wondering whether you ever get pushback or feedback that's like, "Well, not that your issue is not important, but it's just focused on one aspect of what our goals are for this year." AMY-WILLARD: Right. Yeah, that's always a hard thing because when I think about fairness to half of the population, it's a hard thing for me to think that's not hugely important. CHAD: Yes. AMY-WILLARD: I have a really hard time, but yes, of course, we get that a lot. And, you know, quite frankly, when we did this B2B project with Logitech and Zoetis, they would ask their vendors, like, the major consulting companies and big companies, to take a SaaS assessment that we do. We have a SaaS product that private companies can take, or just instead of doing our journalism, they can just get their own assessment. And they were very, very reluctant to do this. That was just, you know, half an hour. It was a thousand-dollar assessment. And it took many months to convince these companies to do it. And that was their big customers. So, yes, it is very hard to have...what's the word? Coherence on what one company wants versus what a big company wants, and it's hard to know what they want. And it's, yeah, that's a difficult road for sure. And it changes [laughs]. CHAD: Part of the reason why I asked is because from a product perspective, from a business perspective, at thoughtbot, we're big fans of, like, what can be called, like, niching down or being super clear about who you are, and what you believe, and what you offer. And if you try to be everything to everybody, it's usually not a very good tactic in the market. AMY-WILLARD: That's right. That's right. CHAD: So, the fact that you focus on one particular thing like you said, it's very important, and it's 50% of the population. But I imagine that focus is really healthy for you from a clarity of purpose perspective. AMY-WILLARD: That's right. But at the same time, now there's lots of...when I started in 2016, there weren't a lot of things in this space, and now there's many, many, many, many, many, many, so corporations that want to sort of connect to the community of women or do better for women. There's many different options. So, there's many flavors of this ice cream. Even though we're niche, the niche is very crowded, I would say, actually, and people are very confused. I mean, I think I remember hearing from Heineken that they're assaulted daily by things to, you know, ways to support women in different organizations and events. And they said they took our call because we were different. But yeah, there's many competitors. But, I mean, that's the main thing. In any business, in any endeavor in life, one has to show one's value to the people who may participate, and that's a challenge everywhere, isn't it? CHAD: Yeah. AMY-WILLARD: But the niching down thing is...and interesting we hear a lot these days is that women are done. We've moved on from that. Now we care about racial equality, and we say, "That's a yes, and… We can't move on." CHAD: Well, the data doesn't show that we've moved on. AMY-WILLARD: The data doesn't show that at all, and we're going way backwards, as you well know. So, I mean, actually, I don't know if you know, there's something called the named executive officers in public companies. Are you familiar with that? The top five paid people. CHAD: Yeah. AMY-WILLARD: They have to be registered with the government. Well, that number really hasn't changed in six years. That's where the big capital is, and the stock options, and the bonuses, and the big salaries. So, to me, that's very important that I would like, you know, rights and capital to be more...well, I want rights to be solid and capital to be flowing. And so, that's what we hope to do in our work. MID-ROLL AD: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build, and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Liftoff brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow today. Get in touch at thoughtbot.com/liftoff. CHAD: So, going back to the founding of Gender Fair, when did you know that this was something you needed to do? AMY-WILLARD: I wanted to serve, you know, you want to be useful in life. And I wanted to do work in this field that I care so much about. As I said, I think I told you I started doing journalism before, and I realized anyone could take the journalism, and they could, you know, Upworthy would publish things we would create and then not pay us for it. And I thought that's crazy. But it's interesting talking to my husband. My husband's, like, a very privileged White guy. And I remember he said something to me very interesting. He said, "You either have power, or you take it." And he said, "Women have all this power." So, he helped me understand this. Like, you know, I think sometimes as women or communities that are underserved, you start thinking very oppositionally about what you don't have. But at the same time, you can realize that you do have this power. So, what we're trying to do with Gender Fair is remind people they have this economic power, and they can use it everywhere, you know, in addition to our consumer database. I told you that we're doing a B2B database this year. And we also...I think next week I'm going to release a database of 20,000 nonprofits looking at their gender ratings. That was done as a volunteer project by Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology if you know them. So, yeah, this is an ethic that you can take everywhere in your life is you have this power, even as a consumer. Chad, even in your little town, you can ask your coffee shop if they pay fair wages. Like, this is just a way of looking at the world that I hope to encourage people to do. CHAD: Along the journey of getting started, I assume you ran into many roadblocks. AMY-WILLARD: Mm-hmm. CHAD: Did you ever think maybe this is too hard? AMY-WILLARD: Oh yes. Well, not in building. In building, you're very optimistic, you know, it's just like when you're writing your first book. You think it's going to be a bestseller. Like, you build something, and you think the whole world is going to use it right away, and you're going to...I did have a great...when I first launched, I had a wonderful, I had, you know, press in Fortune. I had Chelsea Clinton. I had big people writing about us. Melinda Gates has written about us many, many times. The fact that...well, I've always wanted to build, like, a consumer revolution of women, and I'm going to keep at it. But it's very daunting. It's very daunting when you're trying to move a boulder such as, you know, big institutions and companies that don't really want to change, and they're not motivated to do it. So, yes, those are my roadblocks. It's not creating the massive amount of change that I wanted to do. And I'm not going to give up, but, yes, it is very daunting, and it's very daunting to see how little people care. Some people don't care about it, but some people in power don't care about it. But I think if you asked, you know, regular women, they would say, "We would like fair pay. We would like equal opportunity. We would like paid parental leave." They would want all these things, and hopefully, together, we can fight for them. CHAD: Well, and, like you said, the premise of what you're doing is you're focused on the power that you do have, which is the dollars that you spend with these companies. I think that's such a smart angle on this because especially for...it seems like the core in terms of the consumer-facing companies. That's so inherent in what this is. AMY-WILLARD: That's right. CHAD: Yeah, the angle of empowering consumers, and giving them the information, and leveraging the power that consumers have with these companies seems really smart to me... AMY-WILLARD: That's right. If it works -- CHAD: As opposed to individually going to the companies and saying, you know -- AMY-WILLARD: "Please make it." Yeah. And some people would refute your use of the word empower because that implies that people don't have power. So, when I give speeches...I have a pair of beautiful gemstone red pumps, and I say it's the ruby slippers. We had this power all along. We just were not exercising it. But this power will only work, Chad, if it's done in the aggregate. So, our challenge is to reach the aggregate of American women. I have to, you know, I have to go reach 50 million women this year. That's my goal. Reach 50 million women with this message that we have the power in the aggregate to make change. And that's the only way this will work. If it's just one by one, it really doesn't. When I first launched, I found when I showed the app to people on the lower end of the economic scale, like, you know, people in the cash register; they understood this more than middle-class women. They understood the fact that if all women come together and, you know, buy from this company or don't buy from this company based on how they treat women, they understood that as a collective power. Whereas middle-class women who don't have as many struggles didn't really groove to that idea as quickly, which I thought was very...to me, it was very interesting, you know, individuals feel more powerful on the higher end of the social scale. They may or may not -- CHAD: That is interesting. AMY-WILLARD: Yeah. So, yeah, that's my goal. We'll see if I can do it. That's going to be my life's work, I think, Chad. CHAD: How do you reach 50 million people? AMY-WILLARD: I don't know. That's what I'm going to think about. You know, we're talking to different people about campaigns. We actually stopped the consumer work during the pandemic because it just, you know, everything changed. And so, now, this year, we're going back. I don't know; I mean, I guess if Ryan Reynolds tweeted about me, you know, that would help. If [laughs] anyone listening has any ideas how to reach 50 million women...no, maybe 3 million is what I need to create social change. CHAD: I imagine that it doesn't just come down to spending money on advertising. One, you might not have that money. AMY-WILLARD: No. And that would be, you know, that also would be not in the ethics of what Gender Fair is, for example, right? That means I would be paying money to Facebook and basically Facebook, I guess, and Google. If you look at the major spends of nonprofits, they're advertising with these big tech giants. And so, we have...actually, we have some partnerships with large women's organizations, and I think that's the way we hope to spread that. And if I had money for advertising, I would want to spend it with other women's organizations, or women's owned media, or women influencers. There's another idea I talk about in my work I call the female domestic product, and so talking about how much money women earn or capital we control. And the more we can grow that female domestic product, the more we can achieve equality actually. I always say, in America, you get as much equality as you can pay for sadly. CHAD: I was just about to say, "Sadly." AMY-WILLARD: Sadly, yeah. It's true. We still don't have the Equal Rights Amendment. A hundred years. CHAD: Well, 50% of the population would say, "Why do we need an Equal Rights Amendment [laughs]?" AMY-WILLARD: All men are created equal, but yeah, it's quite astonishing. I don't know. Do you have daughter, too, or just a son? CHAD: I have a son, and my younger one is non-binary. AMY-WILLARD: Well, I'm sorry to be so binary. Excuse me. CHAD: It's okay. AMY-WILLARD: Well, interesting. And that's great, too, isn't it? Because we see how fluid gender is and their rights are just as important as a woman's rights. And these are, you know, women and non-binary people are often excluded from things. And so, we are all working together just to create fairness. I'm sure that the same thing happens in your family, too. CHAD: Yeah. I think fairness is one of those things. Sometimes equality is not necessarily the same as fairness. AMY-WILLARD: Yes. CHAD: But I think, like you said at the top of the show, fairness is something that we seemingly learn very early on. But one of the ways that it comes across is I'm being. It is unfair to me, especially in little kids, at least with my kids [laughs]. AMY-WILLARD: Of course, yes. CHAD: That was the thing that they learned first and caused them the most pain. And it was very difficult for them to see that something was unfair for somebody else. So, I remember saying to my kids when they were little, "Fair doesn't mean you get your way." AMY-WILLARD: That's right. Not fair. CHAD: Right [laughs]. AMY-WILLARD: It's true. But then, you know, it's funny. When I talk about equal pay, I often say to people, "When I used to cut cakes for my children, I cut equal slices, and I didn't put them under the table," like, you know what I mean [laughter]? So, why are we so cagey about the slices of economic pie we give to one another? I mean, there's no reason why pay has to be secret, right? If it's fair. You could easily talk to people. Well, you know, Chad gets paid more money because he's the CEO, and he does the podcast, and he has to talk to the bank, you know what I mean? So, you could easily explain that to people. And I don't know why we have to keep salaries a secret from one another. It seems very irrational to me and not really a part of fairness. CHAD: Yeah. Yep. That's something...so, all of our salary bands at thoughtbot are public on the internet. AMY-WILLARD: Cool. On the internet. Oh, I'm very impressed. CHAD: Yeah. So, you can go to thoughtbot and use our compensation calculator. You enter in your location, what role you have. AMY-WILLARD: Oh. So, you do it for other people. Oh, that's cool. That's a great service. And that was just some sort of tech that was sort of pro bono tech that you all built for the world. CHAD: Yeah, we created it for ourselves. AMY-WILLARD: And then you shared it. CHAD: Mm-hmm. AMY-WILLARD: Then you open-sourced it. Great. Well, I bet you have a lot of happy employees. CHAD: I like to think so [laughs]. I do think that there is an inherent understanding of fairness. And when people ask how we do things at thoughtbot or how we should do things, I say, "How do you want it to be?" I think that guides a lot of how we do things and why a lot of stuff we do is just common sense. And it's not until ulterior motives or maintaining power comes into play where the people in power don't want to give it up. Because, like you said, people don't understand that by giving someone else a bigger piece, they think that that means their piece is smaller. AMY-WILLARD: Right. Or they just think they deserve it. I was reading last night about succession planning and CEOs. And apparently, a lot of them just stay...oh, sorry, in big public companies, not in their own companies, they stay on way too long. And all these consultants are saying it's the four Ps, you know, position, privilege, pay, and then...I forget the other one. But one of them was jets. They don't want to give up their jets. So yeah, I think when you have things, it seems fair, and sharing them seems...giving up some of what you have seems unfair. But I do think humans can see fairness. But sometimes, when you have a lot, it's hard to see it. You're able to justify why it may be not unfair to people who don't have as much as you do. But anyway, I can't change human nature, but most people do understand fairness. I think you're right about that. CHAD: Well, one thing...I noticed...so, you're a Public Benefit Corporation. AMY-WILLARD: Yes. CHAD: Did you set out to be a Public Benefit Corporation from day one? AMY-WILLARD: Yes, you know, originally, when it came to how was I going to pay for this, the first part I paid myself with my own money. I hired MBAs. I hired researchers. I built the tech. And then, I wasn't sure how I was going to pay for it going forward. But I knew I didn't want to become a nonprofit because, in my mind, there are so many things that...there are so many problems that women have that need to be solved by nonprofit organizations, planned parenthood first among them. Like, I don't want to take money away from women's organizations that help women fleeing abusive homes. So, I wanted to see if I could pay for this in the private sphere, which we've been able to do, and not have to seek donations because, really, I felt very strongly about not taking money out of that. That's part of the FDP, the part of the female domestic product, but the part that's contributed by people philanthropically. And there isn't a lot of philanthropic dollars going to women, as I mentioned before. So, yes, I knew definitely I wanted to be a Public Benefit Corporation. And there's no tax benefits to that, you know, I don't know if you are yet, but... CHAD: No, it's something that we've looked at, but it's very attractive to me. AMY-WILLARD: Right. And there's also the private version of it being a B Corp, which is also very useful. It's an onerous process. Public Benefit Corporation isn't quite as onerous, I don't believe. I mean, we're in Delaware and New York, but it just says that you're, I mean, we exist for the public good. I'm not existing to make millions of dollars. I'm existing to create social change. And some organizations don't want...are leery of working with us because we're not a nonprofit so that's to assuage them. Well, it's not really about...we're not about enriching shareholders. It's just a different way to pay for it. But yeah, I would encourage all companies to look into being a Public Benefit Corporation or do a B Corp assessment or a Gender Fair assessment. It helps them, you know, operate in a world that is increasingly more values concerned. Maybe 20 or 30 years ago, it wasn't so on the top of mind of many people. We were coming out of, you know, warring '80s capitalism. But nowadays, the younger people, especially, are very focused on issues of fairness and equality. So, I think those tools making business better that way are very useful. CHAD: Well, I would encourage, you know, everyone listening to go check out the app, if you're at a company, to look at doing the assessment. Where can people do those things? AMY-WILLARD: Ah, well, yeah, I would encourage them to do all those things. You're right, Chad. I would encourage you to download the app and check some of your favorite brands. It's very simple. Do the paid subscription. And then, if you're a company, you can do an online assessment. You just go Gender Fair assessment, and you'll find it. If you're a business and would like to participate in our B2B database, you can also do the assessment, or there's a coalition for Gender Fair procurement, where you can get information. We had the prime minister of Australia speak at our launch. It was quite excellent. We'll be launching our nonprofit. Actually, I think it's already online. It's called genderfair-nonprofits.org, if you want to see how your favorite nonprofits do. But, basically, we're here to help any business or organization do better on gender. And you can email me [email protected]. And I would love to help anyone in their journey for fairness of any kind. Yeah, many ways to participate. Just go to genderfair.com or genderfairprocurement.com. CHAD: Awesome. Amy, thank you so much for sharing with us. I really appreciate it. And thank you for all the good that you're doing in the world with Gender Fair. AMY-WILLARD: Well, I appreciate the way you're running your company in a very new, interesting, and apparently ethical way. Privately, I could look at your website and your career page and figure out how you're doing. But it sounds, to me, when I've talked to people, that you're doing very well. And I honor your curiosity about learning from others. CHAD: Awesome. Well, listeners, you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. You can find me on Mastodon @[email protected]. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening, and see you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.

In this episode of the Giant Robots Smashing into Other Giant Robots (On Tour!) podcast, hosts Sami Birnbaum and Jared Turner are joined by Ishani Behl, CEO and Founder of Skillopp and Sustainr. Ishani, an instructional designer by trade, began her journey by creating online courses and eventually moved into sustainability, inspired by her exposure to startups at the UNDP. She founded Sustainr, a platform that connects sustainable brands, and Skillopp, which simplifies learning using AI, aiming to reduce information overload. Ishani discusses how her educational background and experiences shaped her desire to improve learning and sustainability. She emphasizes the importance of dejargonization and how Skillopp uses AI to make complex information more accessible. She also highlights Sustainr's role in connecting sustainable brands with resources and opportunities, fostering a community that emphasizes collaboration over competition. Her journey reflects a commitment to creating impactful, sustainable business practices and improving educational approaches through technology. Throughout the conversation, Ishani shares her challenges in balancing multiple ventures, the importance of delegation, and her approach to building trust within her communities. She provides insights into the evolving landscape of e-learning and sustainability, emphasizing the need for personalized learning and effective communication. Skillopp (https://www.skillopp.com/) Follow Skillopp on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/skillopp/). Sustainr (https://www.sustainr.co/) Follow Sustainr on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/econet2021/) or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/sustainr.22). Follow Ishani Behl on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ishanibehl/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript: SAMI: This is the Giant Robots Smashing into Other Giant Robots podcast, the Giant Robots on Tour series coming to you from Europe, West Asia, and Africa, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. If you have no idea about this Giant Robots on Tour series, then please make sure you listen to our previous podcast, where we throw random icebreakers at each other and we have fun naming the new series. So, make sure you don't miss out on that one. I'm your host, Sami Birnbaum. JARED: And I'm your other host, Jared Turner. SAMI: And with us today is Ishani, CEO and Founder of Skillopp, which simplifies learning to amplify performance through AI, and Sustainr, the Fiverr for sustainable brands. We are so delighted to have you with us, Ishani, today. We're going to get more into depth and into detail exactly where you're at and what you're doing at present. But I always like to go back to the start with my guests because there's always a journey and a story about how they got to where they are. Would you give us some details about how you got to the place you are today? ISHANI: Definitely. It's great to be on this. I'm delighted to also kind of share my story. It's been quite a journey. It all started a few years ago. I'm an instructional designer so that basically means that I design online courses for a living. So, if you see those ads on Instagram, "Hey, come to my masterclass," what I basically do is that I help in designing the whole course from the beginning but in a much better way. I guess this whole journey of Sustainr and Skillopp really started after I graduated. So, I went to King's College, and I pursued a degree in liberal arts, after which I worked at UNDP. And I was exposed to this world of sustainability and all these really cool startups that were coming up in this space. And I thought to myself that this is such an interesting and innovative field to be in. In every single startup that, you know, you would really do research around, you would just find these really interesting bits of information that you really didn't know. And I think that the business models per to se is also kind of like a way to emulate how you can live your own life in a much more efficient manner. That's why sustainability is called sustainability for a reason so that you can really sustain your livelihoods for a much longer amount of time. I think just building upon that, when the pandemic started, I really thought of doing something around this. And we kind of created a community of practice, so to say, of just sustainable brands around the country, in the UK and India. We started connecting them with various opportunities, so it sort of became like a Fiverr [laughs] of sorts where we would kind of connect them to various kinds of opportunities that would help them grow. I think when I went back to London for my master's, a lot of people in the faculty really liked the idea. And they were able to provide us with some funds, and we won a number of competitions. And that really led to the beginning of Sustainr, and we currently have around 40 brands on our platforms. We keep on having a lot of collaborations. We've also raised grants for a few startups as well. This idea of really merging learning with the community created impact, and I had no idea about that. And I think when I started creating courses as well for other brands and other companies, this whole idea of Skillopp also emerged as well, where we really took into account one very important concept, which was dejargonization. Now, I'm not too sure if you're aware about this, but there's this very big problem that's happening in the world right now. It's called the information overload. If you think about it, every single time you open, you know, some piece of content, or a reel, or anything, you see so many words that you just don't understand whether it's Web3, crypto, Bitcoin [chuckles], whatever it might be. So, what we basically did in that case through Skillopp, which was this new vertical that we created, we basically simplified content through using different AI tools. And that would really help automate digital learning and communication in organizations. And we've currently worked with the top MNCs in the world as well. The whole idea, in a nutshell, in terms of my life so far, has really been around how exactly you can design content in the most simplest way possible. How do you dejargonize it? And also, how do you create impact in the sustainable space? Because that is one key area that I think can really teach us so much about our own lives and can create so much of impact given the current climate crisis as well. JARED: That was a great intro. Thank you. You're working on two businesses. Are you still studying, or you finished studying now? ISHANI: I finished studying. JARED: You finished. So, I guess you were studying while you were working. ISHANI: Mm-hmm. JARED: But now you're working on two. So, how did you or how do you balance all of that? And how do you choose what to prioritize when they probably both seem just as important? ISHANI: I think it took me some time to figure that out. It's not easy. I'm somewhat of an overthinker. So, it just so happens to be that when you think about several problems that your business is facing, you know, whether it's, you know, people; it's sales; it's operations, it just really makes you really flustered, and, you know, you're unable to figure out what do I exactly prioritize. One thing that really helped me was just reflecting on the business models and what I was up to, as well as what exactly deserved the amount of priority that it needed to. So, what really ends up happening is that I think there's a lot of reflection on how do you delegate tasks, and that's how I exactly manage two businesses. I really believe in this whole concept that, as an entrepreneur, everybody looks at you and everyone's like, "Yeah, you must be doing it all," right? Like, the marketing, the sales, especially in the beginning. But I believe that when you learn the art of delegation and just kind of letting go and surrendering that, okay, no, you know, I have a team who's handling this aspect of the business, and I should not worry about it, you automatically can start focusing on other aspects. And I think that's how I started prioritizing. I divided the tasks into whatever really received utmost importance in the beginning that was easier to do, and then, you know, you sort of get the hang of it. I'd also like to add to the fact that I think we don't talk about this really often but look at, like, our moms, right? Like, they handle a household and their work at the same time, and they can do it. So, you know, I really think to myself, there are so many people who might be handling more than that, then why can't I do it? I think just setting that motivation really, really helps. And you can then start figuring out how to delegate, how to prioritize. But I think mindset is key because if you don't have the right mindset, you won't be able to do it. SAMI: As a father of four, that analogy really resonates with me in terms of juggling all those different balls at the same time. But I can imagine it's exhausting as well. But you touched on this concept of dejargonization, which I love because I think there is such a barrier to learning sometimes because humans take simple things and make them complex. And it sounds like, through your e-learning platform, you're taking complex things and returning them back to being simple. I've seen you describe yourself as a bad learner. ISHANI: [laughs] SAMI: What does that mean, and how exactly has that impacted you? ISHANI: In the beginning, the reason why I pursued education, I guess, there was this very rebellious instinct that I had in mind. When I was in school, it was so different. I was told to especially memorize certain formulas in math. And there was this really gigantic physics book that I had to learn and, you know, kind of memorize the formulas and understand the concepts, no pictures at all. And, you know, you just had to be perceived as, hey, you know, if you can memorize them and you can get good grades, you are really, really smart, but if you can't, then that basically means that you don't have any future. And that was the kind of mindset that I grew up in. And I think I had this rebellious instinct that if supposing I couldn't, like, especially because in science, I was really, really bad. I used to hate those horrible textbooks. I was just like, how can somebody learn through this? And I was just like, no, I want to change this. I want to change the way people approach education and learning. And I started seeing this and this started becoming so relevant. A lot of us today might perceive that they know certain concepts. But when we start having a conversation around that concept, there are so many misconceptions that are created because of these preconceived notions of how they were taught earlier about a certain concept as well in school, right? I guess my mission is to kind of eliminate that barrier of questioning concepts right in the beginning when somebody is learning and not being like, hey, you know, if I don't understand this word, if I don't understand this concept, I'm really smart. I'm going to figure it out. I hate the Superman complex that people have these days. I know it all. I really, really know it all. And I'm just like, well, do you? This is one of my favorite slogans, like, if you can't teach it, then don't preach it. And [laughs] I think that I keep on following that slogan all my life that if I really don't understand anything, I have to figure out a way to understand it, and that doesn't mean that I'm dumb or stupid. I have to figure out a way in terms of understanding that concept. That's why I call myself a bad learner because I used to hate how I was taught in school. And I was just like, you know, I'm not going learn like this, either I have to change the way I think and I learn. That's the only way that I will do that. And that's why I got into education. I was just like, I really want to take some revenge on this [laughs]. SAMI: I love that. That really resonates with me. I would also, in that sense, I would describe myself as a bad learner, but someone with a good memory, especially when I didn't understand things. I'll never forget when I was studying for my degree. I actually wasn't far from you. I think you were in King's College. ISHANI: Oh. SAMI: Well, I was down the road in LSE. ISHANI: Oh, nice. Neighbor. SAMI: Yes, I remember studying for my degree there, and there was one topic I was studying that I just couldn't understand and get my head around. But there's kind of a way to play the system, and that is memorizing things. So, I promise you, I memorized sentences. I could not tell you what they meant, but I used them in my exam. It was kind of cheating, in a way, but it was kind of also working with the system that I had in front of me. But it sounds like if I had something like an e-learning platform at that time, that is something which could have explained things properly and played into strengths that I might have had that I wasn't able to discover in the regular system. Do you see e-learning platforms...and I've seen this actually from people who, let's say, are studying for their A levels in this country now, which is exams they do ages of, I think, 17 or 16. A lot of them are turning to YouTube, and they learn from YouTubers, and there's other platforms. Do you see e-learning as something which could replace more conventional education, either high schools, degrees? Is that where you see the industry heading? ISHANI: Well, I wouldn't say that e-learning can replace educational systems. I think, at the end of the day, when it comes to e-learning platforms, as well, I really love them. But I wouldn't say that they're as personalized as you would think. They could be. And the number one element to learn well is to personalize learning because everybody is different. Everybody thinks differently. Everybody has a very different process of thinking. Some people learn in a very auditory way. Some people like listening to podcasts like the ones that you're conducting. Some people like learning visually. Some people like learning kinesthetically. Sometimes what I believe is that not every single e-learning platform can do justice to every single style of learning or every single individual. And I'm pretty sure there are 500 more styles of learning that we in the L&D space still haven't discovered yet. I think what e-learning can do and how we can really benefit from e-learning is using it as a tool. We should not depend on e-learning platforms completely, like, in terms of even, like, just simplifying content or, like, figuring out a way in terms of writing an essay. That is something that perhaps we can use it as a tool to brainstorm upon, that it makes our lives much easier. At the end of the day, AI, artificial intelligence, as well as all these e-learning platforms that are coming up, it's a way in terms of conducting the menial tasks that you really didn't want to do so that you can focus on the big stuff. I think if we start approaching e-learning in that way and, you know, also figure out how to set limitations in terms of how we don't depend on it; we will not have, like, a crisis in terms of how we're looking at social media today, where everybody is just addicted to their phones. JARED: Ishani, I wanted to ask specifically about your product, Skillopp. Who's your target market? You know, we've talked a lot about sort of learners from an education perspective, like high school, university. Are you targeting them, or is it more business, commercial users? And how did you discover that market as well? ISHANI: Great. So, I think, again, it really happened to be upon chance. So, like, a little bit more about Skillopp. It's not exactly how a product works. We work in a much more adaptable and flexible manner in terms of how you can use AI to simplify content as well. We started working with a number of corporates through word of mouth, I guess, and we created a lot of impact in that space. And what we did was that we would figure out what would be the best platforms and tools that they can deploy. And we would put them onto one system, and we would develop that for them. So, how it would really end up working would be, like, this very flexible product that we would make as per the needs of the corporate itself, rather than making something of our own, which could not be flexible or adaptable to what the corporation wanted as well. It's really cool because we just end up building on various kinds of innovations. Like, recently, we would also be open to various forms of different tech partnerships in terms of building those systems as well. So, it just ended up creating this collaboration over competition mindset and where everything happened to be, like, this win-win formula when we would build products. And we would kind of go to these businesses as a service, and we would end up building a product for them. I think, that way, it was very interesting to see how that journey really happened. And I think it was just through experimentation, and I really experimented a lot. We do also have, like, some developers who are working with us. And we would kind of go out of our way to figure out what the company or the corporate really wants. And we started building upon these products and then we were able to, like, deploy those particular needs of what that organization wanted in terms of what kind of product they really wanted and how they wanted to simplify content. So, it was, like, as if it was made by them, not by us. And it provided that sense of pride within the organization that, hey, you know, this is something that I really built. This whole concept just got extended through word of mouth to various different organizations and institutions. But, like, through some random way, and I always thought that I'm going to work with an institution first, it just so happened to be working in the corporate space, which is very strange. But I guess that's how entrepreneurship, to a certain extent, works with so much of experimentation that went on. JARED: You're using generative AI as part of that to identify, let's say, jargon and then simplify that language. And one of the problems that generative AI has is what they call the hallucination problem, where it sort of makes stuff up that's not true. Have you encountered that? And I'm curious of any ways you're trying to tackle it. ISHANI: [laughs] So many times. I think AI it's like raising a baby, you know [laughs]. I always like to use that anecdote because [laughs], like, my experience in terms of, like, generative AI and AI, in general, it's always been, like, as if I'm bringing a baby up in terms of, you know, the machine learning aspect of it. I think, yeah, we've encountered that quite a number of times. I think the best way in terms of also approaching this hallucination aspect is to kind of keep the task as specific as possible. If you want to teach somebody a little bit about sales and how do you exactly approach a customer in terms of closing in a deal, right? The way we can approach it. How do you simplify that process for, let's say, sales agents, right? It's to kind of really figure out what is that particular skill that the sales agent really needs help upon. So that if we try and specify it more, then the AI will really understand that, okay, I have to stick to this boundary. I really can't go out of that. And making it as specific as possible really helped us in the process, and they were able to really upskill themselves in that one specific subskill. And we really, really worked on that conversation to such an extent that I even know the script of that conversation in terms of how a sales agent is supposed to negotiate and what would that script be for that particular industry and that organization. So, I think just specifying it as much as you can really helps. I think the hallucination effect happens so much, and that is one problem and also an area that I'd love to do more research in as well. JARED: So, humans aren't going anywhere just yet. ISHANI: Yeah, not going anywhere. Actually, I really don't think so. A lot of people just keep on talking about AI is going to be...and I would...actually, this is a question that I'd love to ask both of you as well that do you think AI is really going to replace human beings? And everybody just keeps on talking about it, and I don't really think so. But what do you think? JARED: Oh, gosh, we could have a whole episode just on this. ISHANI: [laughs] JARED: There's a lot of parallels to the industrial revolution, where everyone said all of the machinery that was created was going to get people out of jobs, farming, and agriculture. And all it really did was shifted the demand for resources into different and slightly more specialized roles. I think we'll see a similar shift with AI. I do think, in time, there will be a significant portion of existing jobs that might go the way of AI overlords. But I'd like to think there'll always be a place for us little humans. What about you, Sami? SAMI: I love this question. I think I've gone around the houses with this one. So, I've gone through different phases of like, oh my gosh, we're all going to die, and no one's going to have any more jobs, and we don't know what we're going to do. Even to the extent that I was really proud of myself that I learned on YouTube how to silicon my bathroom because I was adamant that AI could not do that. And so, if all else goes to pot, then at the very least, I have a skill that is valuable. And then, recently, I've seen the robots they're coming up with, so even that is not really going to work for me. It's really difficult to know. It's so difficult. I find generative AI less compelling because of the hallucinations that we've spoken about. I see that as being far off, and a lot of it depends on the accuracy. Your baby analogy is great. Because the way we're used to interacting with computers is they give us responses that are kind of, like, binary. They're either right or they're wrong. It's like a green light, red light relationship. And when it comes to generative AI, you need to have that more personal relationship with the computer to have that conversation back and forward to get it where you want it to be. Something that has definitely come more to the forefront is discriminative AI, which is AI that can tell a difference between certain data sets. So, I see that taking off a lot more. So, for example, they're using it in, like, the medical sector where the AI can discriminate or tell the difference between certain brain scans in terms of understanding what might be an issue and what might not be an issue. So, that is very powerful. We've actually had that for quite a long time. But as computing power is becoming more affordable, as certain chips have become available, it's becoming more widespread, and we can harness that a lot more. So, discriminative AI, I think, is being very disruptive, and I think it will continue to be. Degenerative AI, I'm not sure because of the difficulties you've spoken about. But worst-case scenario, I will personally come and silicon your bathroom. So, the e-learning company that you have, that seems more familiar to me. And maybe it could be also potentially more familiar to some of our listeners because a lot of us have kind of grown up on YouTube. And I'm not comparing it to YouTube. I know it's a very different beast altogether. It's something which we could possibly identify with and understand more. The Sustainr aspect is a little bit more foreign to me. So, I'd love to get to understand more of what the Sustainr company that you have is all about and how it works. ISHANI: Like I said, I think Sustainr is this very interesting community that we built over the pandemic kind of touching upon this whole aspect of...and I think I'll also, like, come to this point in terms of how Skillopp and Sustainr are also kind of interlinked. It all, actually, technically speaking, started with the same problem: dejargonization. What really happened was that when you also start a startup, especially in the sustainable space, what a lot of people, and when I talked to a lot of founders, especially the 40 brands that we have on our platform, it's like, "Ishani, I just don't know who exactly to approach. I don't know what...supposing I'm trying to find sourcing materials related to my business, supposing I'm trying to find individuals who can create content that is based on the concept of my business, I just don't see the results. And I don't see that people are able to understand and comprehend what I'm trying to talk about." And I feel like this is also perhaps a cultural problem as well. I mean, for example, this has been my experience as well as a number of people in India. Because India is currently growing at a massive rate with the economy, as well as the startup boom that's happening. If you think about it, every single person's mindset is like, I really need to get this done. And that's why a lot of us are also very impatient. So, just thinking about how we're actually really thinking, we create, like, this impatience sort of situationship in our head. And we don't want to perhaps learn about new things. That stops us from learning and really digging deep because we're just like, no, no, no, we need to get this done, and we need to hustle. And there's a lot of that culture that's present over here because our economy is growing. Startups are booming. And there's lots of work to be done. Like, trust me, if you come to Bangalore or Bombay, you will actually feel that pressure [laughs]. So, really thinking about that mindset, what really happens is that when somebody, especially in Southeast Asian countries or especially in a country like India, are looking for stuff for their sustainable business, a lot of people are like, "But what is sustainability? What is ESG? Is it just environment-related?" And, you know, just this communication style, so to say, creates a lot of impatience between both the parties, and that leads to mistrust. Miscommunication takes place. Orders don't come on time. There's a lot of problem and havoc. This also leads to a lot of mental stress. That's why we created this platform, so to say. And how it really works is like, it's like any form of connecting platform. We have various categories, as well, through which people can perhaps list their business on the platform in terms of that particular category, whether it's in sourcing, whether it's in fundraising, finance, or even marketing per se. And we just kind of connect them just like how you would connect people over LinkedIn, like, through an intro. But we would be the ones who would be part of that whole connection scenario so that everybody knows that there is, like, this trusted platform being built between the two people and that they're not alone. There's somebody else who's also dejargonizing the communication flow. And through that, what really happens, Sami, is that, like, the ideas of collaborations really grew because we would also have events. We would also have, like, these very interesting micro podcasts just for the community. And we would just post all of that content that would, A, build a lot of positivity amongst people in that space. And, you know, it would just kind of lead to more productivity in terms of different collaborations. Like, for example, we just tied up somebody who was creating straws using, I think, coconut or something like that to a chain of vegan cafes. I think what really happened was that through this trusted platform, through a community, I think it really, really bolsters a lot of positive mindset. At the end of the day, like I said in the beginning, I really think that it's all about mindset, which really helps you take that action. And that, in a nutshell, is what Sustainr really does in terms of just connecting resources. And now because we work with corporates as well, if supposing there are companies who want to pursue, let's just say, corporate gifting or something like that, we kind of help and initiate that process as well. So, it just becomes, like, this interlinked network where you can really just harness as many collaborations as possible so that you can also grow your business. You have time for experimentation. You have the safe space as well. And I didn't get an opportunity to be a part of any such community. So, I was just like, why not try and see how I can create one? JARED: That's great. It sounds like education and trust, a huge part of this marketplace. How do you ensure you find trusted partners, and how do you convince the people on the other side of that marketplace to trust you or to trust your marketplace? ISHANI: So, I think in terms of building trust, it takes time. So, we're not a community, or we're not kind of, like, this platform; we're, like, telling everybody that, "Hey, you know, come on our platform. We'll ensure that your business will grow." I think, first of all, it's setting the right expectations in terms of what exactly you can really achieve out of this platform. B, I think what I really like to do is, like, a lot of phone calls, just talking to the founder in terms of how he started that particular idea of his. How did it really take place? Our onboarding process is not like you have to fill in this very big, huge form, which will make you extremely bored, and you're just like, "Oh my God, this is, like, such a heavy task." Like, no, it's okay. There are some people in our team who also kind of talk to the founders and figure out what their story is all about. How did they really start that particular business? And if supposing what they're really looking for is something that we can really curtail to. Because we don't want to be also, like, a community where there's no value that we can add, then what's the whole point? And I'm very hell-bent on setting those expectations so that when people actually join our platform, then, you know, it's not like, okay, like, this is going to be just spam coming on [laughs] your way in terms of all the other communities that we end up seeing. But it's so much more than that. I think it's kind of like when we establish that synergy that, all right, if this is what you're looking for, and these are the kind of people that we have, that's the only way that we kind of build that trust. And that trust-building, it takes time. It doesn't happen automatically; it takes a lot of time, and that's why we have a lot of events. We share a lot of bits of content around, let's say, the investing market in the space of sustainability and ESG. What exactly is happening out there? We even link with other communities to build more trust. So, supposing there's a better community than Sustainr, I'd be like, yeah, 100%, you should definitely look at those communities. Like, that tagline has always been collaboration over competition, and I think it's always worked in our favor. We would also end up collaborating with those communities around climate. In so many different aspects, that's helped us, and that's the way that you also kind of build trust, when you actually see those actionable steps being taken, and you see that taking place. But it's not something that I can, like, assure you, like, yeah, 100% the trust is built within that one day. It takes some time, but it happens over a period of time. JARED: I love what you just said there about almost the long-term strategy of, you know what? If there's a better community, we're going to point you in that direction. That, to me, builds so much trust because the short-term option is to say, "Oh, okay, I've seen this. It's probably better for them, but that means they're not on our platform. So, that's not better for me." That is a tremendous way to build trust in a sort of long-term user base. So, I really love that. SAMI: Yeah. I mean, we've only been, I don't know, we've been speaking for about half an hour, 40 minutes now, and I feel like I really trust you as well [laughter]. It's, like, rubbing off. This concept of, you know, demystification and simplifying things it shows this authenticity. And I think your personality comes across and the way that you run these businesses. And you're doing it in an incredibly genuine way. I think that really talks to people. I think people are looking, like, not for jargon. They really want authentic people they can relate to who are real human beings. And that's something which I think really comes across through speaking to you. Obviously, as a consultancy, myself and Jared we work within thoughtbot, and we work with people like yourself to really try and solve their problems and understand what their pain points are. And we can come up with solutions through design or development. What would you say is your biggest challenge? In either one of these businesses or as a whole, where's your biggest challenge at the moment? ISHANI: There are so many [laughs]. But I guess to start off with, kind of scaling it to a considerable level. But at the same time, you know, scaling requires investment, and scaling also requires some amount of time in terms of figuring out how exactly you want to grow your team, which also takes time. So, sometimes I feel like I'm in this catch-22 situation where I'm just like, if I do need investment, right? For example, scale or if I need investment to grow my team even further to get more clients so that I can target more projects, let's say for Skillopp; again, finding the right people it takes time. And I think that's something that I really also kind of struggle with. It took me a lot of time to find the right people for the projects that we're doing right now. I think any tips would be great in terms of how exactly I can really do that so that even if supposing I want to raise investment and I know what I want to raise investment in, which is to grow the team, how exactly would I really approach that? Because I always feel like it's like this catch-22 situation. JARED: Well, it sounds like you already have some clients, which is an infinite step up on most businesses that are starting out and trying to get investment. Like, the fact that you can prove you have revenue coming in is amazing. I mean, the typical things that investors want, like the investor deck, right? They're going to want to see your vision for the business. They're going to want to see your financials and the forecast. And then, it's a matter of finding the right investors as well because I guess there are so many out there. But I think you probably want to find one that matches your values around sustainability and dejargonization as well. SAMI: Yeah, that's a great answer, Jared, actually. And, I think, just to add on top of that, this is where sometimes using a consultancy actually really helps. We see this a lot within thoughtbot, where someone is looking to get investment and wants to scale their team. But when you do that in-house, that comes with a lot of overheads. So, for example, you might need an extra person, your HR team, to handle new people, you know, being directly employed. Going to a consultancy and getting a third-party delivery partner allows you to kind of scale your team quickly, but also, descale that team quickly as well, so that it gives you that flexibility whilst you're in that more turbulent zone of, "Oh, I'm trying to scale, and I'm trying to get investment. And I'm not sure where my budgets are." Until you, you know, complete that scaling that you want to do, you get to a place where you're more stable. And then, actually, what thoughtbot does is helps people to then hire their own in-person team. But yeah, something like a consultancy can give that flexibility. But the way you describe this catch-22 situation is so common because what do I do first? I've got all these levers I could pull. So, I could pull the investment lever, or I could pull the, you know, extra resources lever. And then, there's like, you know, extra revenue lever as well. So, it's a really difficult problem. But definitely, we found, as a consultancy, that having that flexibility using third-party partners can be something which helps. JARED: And I wanted to just ask, because I remember you were saying you're working with some developers, are they developers you've hired, or is that a third-party team you're working with? ISHANI: It's very similar to what you really mentioned. It's like a strategic partnership with a third-party team. But, again, I think finding the third-party team also, like, it takes a long time to find. But I think that I really liked the thought that you were really talking about as well earlier, where you were kind of mentioning that that whole catch-22 situation is super, super important to understand. And I feel that instead of kind of going on LinkedIn and, like, posting so many, like, you know, these job descriptions with the overhead costs...I started learning that once I made that mistake. I think I learned so much about that. And I think that what you said it's also, like, reflecting on the fact that, okay, you really can see this through the strategic partnerships. And I think I'd love to be somebody or, like, you know, aspire to be someone who can, like, master that whole art of finding the third-party consultancies like you were mentioning, especially what you're doing as well. So, I think it's great, and thank you so much for the feedback and as well as answering question. SAMI: It's been great to have you on. And doing a podcast like this it just gives us the opportunity to speak to people like yourself. If people want to reach out to you, do you have any specific place you'd like them to reach out? ISHANI: You can go on my LinkedIn, where you'll find a lot of stuff and links to what I do. SAMI: Cool. So, I highly recommend our listeners to take a look at Skillopp, and take a look at Sustainr, and get to know all the great work that Ishani is doing. For our listeners, we're going to bring you lots more content like this. This was the first one in the Giant Robots on Tour series. Your only challenge before the next one is to hit the subscribe button to make sure you get this content directly as soon as it comes out because we've got some incredible guests lined up for you. You can find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected]. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See ya. Okay, before we sign off, a quick request. If you're enjoying Giant Robots on Tour, please drop us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Your reviews help us grow and reach more listeners, and we'd love to hear what you think. Thanks for being part of our journey, and stay tuned for more episodes. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.

Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido chat with Mandy Moore, the mastermind behind thoughtbot's Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots and Bike Shed podcasts. Mandy shares some great insights on the technical aspects and the crucial role of editing in creating top-notch content. She stresses the importance of having a producer to handle the behind-the-scenes work, allowing the hosts to focus on delivering captivating content. Mandy also shares her personal journey into podcast editing, highlighting her resourcefulness and how her skills evolved over time. Will and Victoria also delved into the strategic advantages of podcasting for businesses, highlighting its effectiveness in helping thoughtbot build a community and establish authority as a company. Mandy discusses how a well-produced podcast can be a potent sales tool and can significantly boost a company's brand presence. They even touch on the future of podcasting, with Mandy pointing out how continuous podcast production can help solidify a company's reputation, even in uncertain times. The episode wraps with some practical advice for anyone interested in starting their own podcasts, emphasizing the need for passion, persistence, and a clear strategy. Follow Mandy Moore on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/missmandymoore/). Visit her website: mandymoore.tech (https://mandymoore.tech) Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Mandy Moore, our long-time Podcast Editor and Creative Content Marketer. Mandy, thank you for joining us. MANDY: Thank you so much. VICTORIA: So, I'm excited to dive into the topic of podcast, and creative content, and strategies for companies that are maybe long-time listeners of the Giant Robots podcast who are just curious about why we do this podcast and what it does for us as a company. So, excited to get into that, but before we do, let's start with a fun question to get us warmed up. Mandy, is there anything fun, exciting going on in your world outside of work? MANDY: Outside of work, I spend a lot of time at my local dance studio doing a mixture of dance and aerial arts. It gives me something physical to do after my work days. It's an afternoon thing for me. So, I spend about one to two hours there. And it's really helped me overcome a lot of challenges in my life, dealing with a lot of trauma and other aspects of overall personal development and recovery. WILL: That's awesome. I normally would never know what you're even talking about, or whatever, but [chuckles] my daughter is into dance. So, every Tuesday, I take her to dance. She begs me to take her, so I take her. So, my daughter is three—about to turn four. And every time we go to dance, she begs us to let her do the aerial dance. Like, I don't ever try to tell her, "Hey, you're too small," or whatever, but we're like, "Let's wait on that one. And then, let's wait until you can do the dance and then get up there." But she is so excited to get on the aerial dance and to do that. So, for you, was it scary when you started doing it, or did you just jump right in? How was it? MANDY: I always jump right into everything, but it was hard at first. It looks like it shouldn't be that hard, but it takes a lot of strength. And I was in a much different place eight months ago than I am now. It amazes me the transformation and growth that I've been able to see in myself because, from the very beginning, my instructor encouraged me to video myself. So, I have beautiful videos of progressions. And I can't wait to get a little bit more confident with my own social media and start sharing some of the before and afters because I really want to inspire people. It's done wonders for me and my mental health. WILL: A lot of respect to you because I don't know if I could just trust, I don't know what you call it, but that ribbon, that material just to hold you. I don't know if I could do it. So, a lot of respect to you [chuckles]. MANDY: So, my instructor likes to point out a fun fact, and I'm going to butcher it. I think it can hold whatever a baby elephant weighs. It can hold up to three tons safely. WILL: Is it...I'm going to throw this...I'ma tie it in with Victoria. Is it kind of like...because I know with rock climbing, it's all about hand placement, especially if you're belaying. Are the mistakes when you are not paying attention, and you let go of one of the materials, or how does it work? MANDY: Mistakes happen when you think about it too much. And that is what I'm always working on is to just stop thinking about it and just doing it because I'm an overthinker, too. And when I start to think about it too much, then I get messed up. But your body knows. Your body adapts. And it learns after the exercise is over. So, in the evenings, after your exercises, that's when your body is, like, doing its internal magic and, like, memorizing your stuff. So, that's why when you go back, it gets easier each time because your muscle memory actually grows when you're on your downtime. VICTORIA: Oh yeah. Yeah, I was going to say about climbing...it's funny that you asked that question, Will, about, like, the things that actually hold you because people get that question in climbing, too, about the ropes. Like, are the ropes actually going to hold you? And once you're comfortable with it, you know that it can hold a lot more weight than you [laughs], but it still can be scary. And I've seen people in Joshua Tree doing aerial silks from a line that's been drawn across the tops of two boulders. So, super cool. There's a lot of crossover in the community, I think, between people who do that type of dance and who also enjoy climbing and being outside. So, I love it. And so, you make a really good point about how you learn and how information seeps into your brain. And maybe how do you see the world of podcasting and all the things you can learn from podcasting, like, how does that fit into, like, how you learn and how you think about the world? MANDY: You know, I've built my entire career on figuring things out, and just building memory, and repeating processes, and figuring out what people want. Because, to me, editing is more than AI can do at this time. WILL: Yeah. And I think you're super talented at what you do, so I just want to make sure that I tell you that. Like, you've done a really good job with us. I remember whenever I first had a conversation with Chad, I didn't know to what extent that being a podcast host with this podcast would be. But whenever he said, "We have an editor who will cut some stuff, make you sound good," I was like, "Oh, okay." "Like, essentially, Mandy is doing the hard work for us." MANDY: [laughs] WILL: And so, I was like, "I'm in. Let's do this." So, it's an art to do this. It's an art. How did you get started? How did you get the ball rolling to get to the point you're at right now? MANDY: I was scrappy. I go in time by how old my daughter is, and my daughter is almost 15. So, that's how long I've been doing this. Because I was a single mom and I was a waitress. So, at the time, I had a one-bedroom apartment, and I still had a laptop. And my neighbor didn't have a Wi-Fi password. So, I used my neighbor's Wi-Fi, and I started doing virtual assistant jobs. And I met a developer. He was like, "Can you edit a podcast for me?" And I was like, "Yeah, I can totally do that." And I got off the call and started Googling what is a podcast. And this was back in 2010, mind you, so podcasting was new at that point. And so, I just learned it, and I did a decent job. And every podcast that he did, I got better and better. And then, he had friends, and it just kind of turned into, like, Mandy's the go-to for tech podcasting there for a little bit. And I, at one point, got a referral to thoughtbot, and I've been with you ever since. I think it's been going on five or six years now. VICTORIA: What's your first piece of advice for someone who's interested in starting their own podcast? MANDY: Get a producer. I prefer to be behind the scenes. So, I like to help other people shine. So, like, my goal as a producer is just to have the host show up and be the talent and say the interesting things. So, if you want to have the bandwidth to be able to do that, you know, let somebody else do that work who specializes it because you can really bring your full self to the table and do what you need to do as the host and have fun with it. VICTORIA: Yeah. And I think people either correctly estimate that it is a lot of work to edit your own podcast and to create the content, do all the marketing, invite people, plan great content. And it is much easier if you have help [laughs]. And you're probably going to have a better podcast that people want to listen to because it sounds good, and you might not want to skimp on that detail. MANDY: Yeah. The other thing I would say when you go to start a podcast is a lot of people are focused on equipment. And that can take you down a long rabbit hole and make you never start to actually record the podcast because you're too worried about all of the details. Get a microphone and go. You don't even need an editor. You can make yourself sound decent through tons of free software. Audacity is one of my favorite platforms to use to edit podcasts. It's been free and open source since I've started. WILL: Yeah. I love the advice, what you said, because not everyone...I don't want to do total assumptions, but majority of people fit in two camps. You have the people that want to be out front and chat and can connect with anyone. But you also have the people behind the scenes. So, I'm glad you said that because I think a lot of stuff...when people realize who they really are and what they're good at, it makes them so much better. I can't imagine doing a podcast and trying to edit everything and push it out. I think I'm decent at doing the podcast, and you make us so much better. So, I'm so glad that you said that about kind of just knowing your roles and what's your strengths and everything, so... MANDY: Absolutely. I find it relaxing to edit a podcast. Believe it or not, editing a podcast with software is kind of like putting a puzzle together. I was a kid that loved to sit down with puzzles. You know, it is true that once I come to kind of memorize waveforms, like, Will, I know when you're going to say, "Um" a lot of times before I even hear you say, "Um" because I've recognized your speech patterns and same with Victoria. I will be able to pick them out. And it's very interesting. That's a little-known fact from a producer standpoint [chuckles]. WILL: Well, that's actually really cool because I don't really talk about this much, but I'm originally from Louisiana, and so I have a thick Southern accent. And so, that was actually one of my fears about doing, like, a podcast. So, it's actually interesting that you're saying that you know the ums and, um, which I just did [laughs], but you know how to help us out with that. So, yeah, that's actually...I think that was one of the things I have respect for you is that you break down the barriers for people to be better and not be so insecure. Because if you're from Louisiana, there are so many words if you look at it and you try to pronounce it, it's going to mess you up, like Atchafalaya, or Natchitoches, or so many of those words that you're like, you almost have to know the word and pronouncing is going to mess you up. MANDY: I call it...and I don't think anybody is a not smart person, but when I edit podcasts, like, the finished product comes out, I liken it to giving the speakers IQ points because the listeners hear the final, polished version. A lot of people start sentences three times over. They only hear the polished version. So, in essence, it's giving the speakers IQ points just to give them a little bit more, you know, of a leg up. Nobody wants to really hear somebody bumbling around, but we all do it. We all get nervous. It's human nature to stumble and get nervous and let all those speech patterns out that show us as nervous. But that's what we're for is to clean everybody up. And I love getting to help people have that confidence to go because it's just like, "Don't worry. I got you. Just go out there, have fun, and you're going to sound great." VICTORIA: And, in your experience, what kind of reasons for a podcast make the most sense for a business? Like, it's a common piece of advice if you want to build a community to start a podcast, but why is that? Or, like, when does it really make sense for you to start your own podcast? MANDY: I mean, you nailed the number one is the community. But, honestly, also, it's a great sales tool, especially if you're a customer with customers, and you're helping people network and expand the network. You're featuring the people. You're expanding the network broader than a community like in a Slack channel, say, or a message board because those are fine, too. But putting your company out there and being authority and also giving people access to free content that is helpful to them can really help a business establish that trust in the market and be like, wow, they really take their time to put this out there. One of the things that I constantly still to this day hear people talk about is the thoughtbot Handbook, that was written years and years ago. And it was a beautiful piece of free content, and everybody still talks about it. WILL: Yeah, I agree. I think one thing about thoughtbot is the handbook. I still hear people talk about it, and it's referenced often. So, that's actually really good advice. What does success look like for you, like, six months now to five years? Where do you want to go? MANDY: I think, for me, I've been in the tech industry for a really long time. I've fallen into the background a little bit too much in that I used to produce a pretty popular podcast called Greater Than Code. And I needed to take a step back from that because, one, it was becoming pretty much a full-time job. You know, content is in a really weird place. I've really been trying to pivot into the general content creation space because I do marketing as well, social media, design, and assets. I've designed my own website. I design my own graphics. So, just kind of letting people know that I'm kind of a one-stop, one-shot person. I do it all myself right now, and I have forever. The only thing I outsource is I have a transcriptionist who is a real person, which is a great selling point to a lot of clients of mine because I don't use AI. And I do have a person who goes over it with the human touch who is well-versed in the software developer lingo. Mid-Roll Ad: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what’s important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode. VICTORIA: What kind of trends do you see with podcasting and with the technology used to manage and produce podcasts? MANDY: I see podcasting, in general, be a come-and-go trend in this industry. It tends to be, you know, one of the things that businesses are excited to ramp up on. But then it's also one of the things that is the first to go when things get tough or busy or you need to allocate your resources elsewhere. Podcasting seems to be like a trend that I see coming, going with the economy. It's actually very weird to bring it to mind now that you mention it because people love podcasts. But when things are unstable, it's almost like they see it as a perk, and it just becomes something that's easily let go. And that's why I think thoughtbot and the podcasts have been so strong is that they have been kept going no matter what in the industry. And thoughtbot has really become an authority in not just, you know, it started out as a Ruby podcast. And it very much has grown into a bigger startup, entrepreneurial, consultancy-driven show. And so, it just shows that when you stick in the game, what, we're 520-something episodes in now, that you really do have great things achieved. VICTORIA: Yeah. And it sounds like just, you know, having that persistence and just keep going, and if you've found a formula that works for you, you can really benefit from continuing to invest in it. I love that. And let's see, what tips do you give people on how to have more exciting conversations, more engagement? MANDY: I love when people just join the call and immediately hit record because some of the best parts of the conversations happen, and you're like, "Oh, wait, we should have been recording that." Start recording and relax and have...The opening conversations that we started this conversation with, it's an icebreaker. It gets into some of your everyday background. And as hosts, one of the things that I told Victoria and Will to establish rapport with the audience to kind of start dropping a bit of the narrative. You talk about your story, and then the listeners become invested in you, and that's why they come back, too. It's great content all around, but they also really start to love the hosts too. WILL: Yeah, I agree with that because most of the podcasts that I do listen to it's mostly around the host and the way that they treat people. Because if there's a host that's very mean, aggressive, I'm probably not going to listen to them. And, honestly, that's just me, like, I'm not saying don't listen to them. But the hosts do make the podcast a lot of times. And I'm not saying that we make the podcast though, but... MANDY: [laughs] You do. WILL: [laughs] MANDY: It's the chemistry. You guys, I don't know if you know this, but I'm your biggest fan. Like, it's the chemistry. And it's The Bike shed. Fun fact: Joël and Stephanie, like, I told Joël [laughs]...when Joël took over from Steph and Chris, he had different co-hosts each week. And as soon as he had his episode with Stephanie, I said, "Joël, it's Stephanie." VICTORIA: Yeah. And it can take a little while to get your dynamic between your co-host going. And other times, it happens right away, and it's very easy and natural. So, I love that for Stephanie and Joël. So, the idea behind a podcast like The Bike Shed, where it's two main hosts and they're coming up with different topics that they want to dive into, and sometimes they have guests but most of the time they don't, versus a show like Giant Robots where you're interviewing guests, what do you think about the content for each of those? Like, how do you kind of separate those in your mind and the direction content-wise? MANDY: Marketing and knowing your audience. So, the Giant Robots appeals to startups and entrepreneurs. The Bike Shed is more into the code and into the nitty gritty of software development, so they go into deeper concepts. But Giant Robots is more about talking to the people. It's more of an interview-style show. It's featuring interesting people doing really awesome things and, getting the stories out there and connecting. And that's why I love that thoughtbot has both podcasts. We've just started, what—Giant Robots on Tour—to cater to the EWAA region, which is super exciting. VICTORIA: Yeah and, for me, being an interview-style podcast gives me this opportunity to have these deep conversations with really interesting people that you wouldn't necessarily get into in, like, a normal networking event, right? MANDY: Right. VICTORIA: So, if you can think of a list of 10 interesting people you want to talk to, you should start a podcast. [laughter] MANDY: And if you can think of those people, a producer like me will also hunt those ten interesting people down for you and see if they'll talk to you because we can do that, too. WILL: That is the truth. MANDY: I've tracked some pretty cool people down. I'm pretty proud of my skills. VICTORIA: We are absolutely thrilled to have you with us here today, Mandy, and to be such a big part of our podcast, and super delighted to have you come out of the background and be on the show with us today and share your voice. Do you have anything else that you'd like to promote? MANDY: I'd just like to say that I am taking on clients. I would love to get into a general creative content role to utilize all my many skills that I've scrappily picked up over the years. It's hard to put into a resume. You can check me out at mandymoore.tech. WILL: It's not just podcasts, correct? So, if I wanted to try to become an influencer, could you help me with that? Like, what's the different areas that you could help me? MANDY: Oh, girl, yes. Let's make you an influencer, Will. Let's go. VICTORIA: I could see that for you, Will. WILL: I've thought about it, but it's a lot of work. So, that's a big thing, so...[laughs] VICTORIA: Wonderful. I think that's really interesting to think about, Mandy. And I hope that people get a lot out of this episode when they're trying...if they're in this process of considering their own marketing plans, and podcast production, and other types of creative strategy, they might have to reach out to you. MANDY: Thank you so much for having me. WILL: Thank you for being here. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. You can find me on Twitter @will23Larry. VICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Check her out at mandymoore.tech. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.

Host Will Larry announces an exciting new Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast limited series focusing on Europe, West Asia, and Africa and introduces new co-hosts Sami Birnbaum, Svenja Schäfer, Rémy Hannequin, and Jared Turner! Sami sets a fun challenge for the team to devise a name for the new series by the end of the podcast. The co-hosts engage in an icebreaker game where Sami randomly generates questions for each to answer. The team members talk about their paths into the tech industry. Jared, Rémy, and Will share stories of discovering their passion for tech, overcoming initial struggles, and finding their niche within the field. They discuss the importance of patience, problem-solving, and continuous learning in their careers. Sami emphasizes the value of realistic expectations and the ability to spend time with complex problems to find solutions. As the first show progresses, the co-hosts have an amazing time brainstorming potential names for the new series, and ultimately, the team decides on "Giant Robots On Tour" to capture the spirit of exploration and collaboration across different regions. We're excited to keep bringing you this new limited EWAA series! Please subscribe and follow along with us! Follow Sami Birnbaum on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/samibirnbaum/). Visit his website: samibirnbaum.com (https://samibirnbaum.com/). Follow Svenja Schäfer on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/svenjaschaefer/). Visit her website: svenjaschaefer.com (http://svenjaschaefer.com/) Follow Rémy Hannequin on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/rhannequin/). Visit his website rhannequ.in (http://rhannequ.in/) Follow Jared Turner on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredlt/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. And today, we're announcing a new limited series of the podcast focused on the region of Europe, West Asia, and Africa. Please welcome our new co-hosts. Let's start with Sami. Can you introduce yourself? SAMI: I'm Sami. I'm a developer at thoughtbot based in the UK, in London specifically. And I'm really looking forward to this new Europe, West Asia, and Africa podcast, although we are going to need to come up with a name. We haven't got one yet because we're busy people, and we're consultants the rest of the time. But the plan is to get one. I don't think there's any quicker way to do it than just for ourselves to come up with one. And so, I think we should do a bit of a challenge here. I think we could say that by the end of this podcast, we'll have a name. I don't know what that's going to be. I don't know what that's going to look like. But we'll go around at the end of the podcast, and we'll see if one of us during this podcast can pick a name for this new series. I'm going to pass on to Svenja. Hey, Svenja. SVENJA: Hi, Sami. Thank you so much. My name is Svenja. I'm a developer and development team lead at thoughtbot. I live in Spain, more precisely in Almería. It's part of Andalusia. It's all the way in the South of Spain. I'm very excited to be in this podcast. And about the name, I'm also very excited about that. No clue yet. That's it for now from my side. Rémy, do you want to go next? RÉMY: Thank you, Svenja. I'm Rémy. I'm a software developer at thoughtbot. I joined a little bit more than one year ago. And I'm working from Paris, France. And I'm very excited to join this series. Jared, do you want to go next? JARED: Yeah. Thanks, Rémy. Hi, my name's Jared. I'm a product manager at thoughtbot. I am originally from Australia, but I live in London. And you're currently hearing me from Scotland. I'm very excited to hear what we're going to discuss over the course of this limited series and to hear what name Sami is about to come up with on this very podcast. Sami, back to you. SAMI: Yeah. Thanks, Jared. It's great to be doing this with all of you. And formal intros are great, right? So, now everyone kind of knows our position at thoughtbot and where we live. But I was thinking possibly to spice some things up...I've never done a game like this before, so I have no idea where this is going to go. It's kind of an icebreaker game where I use a random icebreaker generator online. They're not my questions. They're generated by someone else, which makes it even more risky. I'll kind of go to each of you individually with an icebreaker question that I've generated, and you're going to have to answer the question. You have no idea what's coming. I have no idea what's coming. But it's a great way of other people getting to know kind of more about us in a more informal way, in a way which we might not think about sharing things. I will do you a favor, though; I'll give everyone two skips, okay? So, I'll hit you with a question, and then, if you don't like the question, you can skip the question. But you've only got two skips, so I would say use them wisely. Because if you skip and you get a worse question, you're not going back to the previous one. Oh, okay, this is interesting. I'm going to start the way we intro'd, just to make it fair. Svenja. SVENJA: I'm scared. I'm scared [laughs]. SAMI: You should be scared. The best thing about this game is the one who's hosting doesn't get asked the questions. So, Svenja, this is your question. What is a lesson you feel you learned too late in life? SVENJA: Online banking [laughs]. I don't use online banking for that long. I don't know. I was the last person, I think, who always ran around with cash because I also didn't use credit cards also, so maybe trust in online banking. I'm not sure [laughs] that's a lesson. Sometimes, I probably shouldn't trust in it, but yeah, it would have made my life a little bit easier. Does that count? SAMI: It definitely counts. I mean, what could be more valuable information to know about Svenja? SVENJA: [laughs] SAMI: That she doesn't like online banking. And that's exactly the type of valuable content you will get from the Europe, West Asia, and Africa podcast series, which I hope, in the background, we are all thinking of a name because we cannot just say Europe, West Asia, and Africa series the whole time. WILL: I have a question, a follow-up. So, how did you do banking? Did you go in every single time, deposit, and withdraw inside the bank? SVENJA: Yes, actually, well, I did. It was good and kind of not so good because I always needed to go back home because I had one office I was kind of allowed to go to because all the others they didn't know me. And so, I went there; then I did my transfer there. I like to speak to real people [laughs], which is interesting because I always worked remotely, at least the last ten years, I think. But real-life interaction is kind of important to me. WILL: Yeah, that's neat to know. Okay. Awesome. Awesome. SAMI: That's cool. Okay, Rémy, I have not hit the generator button yet, so I don't know what's coming. Let's hit it now. Okay, this is interesting. What's something you do to relieve anger or stress? RÉMY: I have a lot of different activities. I kind of find it hard not to do anything. I don't know if it's a quality or not, but I know I'm always busy. So, if I'm stressed, I just go to the next occupation, you know. So, I like to do bread at home. I like sourdough bread. It smells amazing. It's not that easy, but you're working with living organisms. It's kind of nice. I read a lot of astronomy magazines because I'm deeply in love with astronomy. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but I love to play with my daughter. When you're stressed, sometimes it increases the stress depending, but it's always quite fun. SAMI: That's great. Playing with the kids definitely resonates with me. I've got four of my own, so they keep me busy. Is the sourdough bread is that the one where you have that...I'm going to show how naive I am—my lack of knowledge. You have, like, that starter thing that kind of lives with you. RÉMY: Yeah, exactly, the sourdough starter. That's actually the most fun part for me so far because you have to start from scratch. I mean, you can start with another starter. But it's quite interesting to just start with water and flour, and then you create something living, and it's a mutual benefit. You feed it, and then it feeds you a little bit later when you bake it in 200 degrees in your oven. It's interesting. WILL: You said it's a living organism. So, you said that you started with water and flour. So, what introduces the living organism into the sourdough bread? RÉMY: I lack a bit of the English vocabulary for that. I think it's called yeast. The living yeast on the flour, especially if it's organic, it's just out there, you know, even in the air. And when you just feed it with warm water and, like, a cozy environment, it starts eating the flour, and it develops, and it changes some of the texture and the taste into a lot of things. And then, it's quite powerful for making the bread rise and making a very nice taste and the crust and everything. But I think if I'm correct, Svenja might know a lot more about [inaudible 07:51] bread than me. SVENJA: I don't. I think the reason you said is because I'm German [laughs]. We love bread, and I absolutely love bread, but I don't have the patience to feed something. I don't have kids. I do have dogs. I do feed them, but they also get sometimes a bit of bread. I was never able to do my own sour bread, unfortunately, because I really love it. And I don't get it around here, which is really sad. So, I will look into that. SAMI: That's cool. That brings us to Jared. Jared has been waiting patiently for his question. JARED: Hit me with it, Sami. SAMI: Let's do it. Oh, okay. If you could kick one person out of this podcast...no, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. That's not, I mean, no, that was just...that's my own. Okay, let me actually do one. What's one characteristic you admire in others, and why? JARED: Oh, interesting. I think I always appreciate when someone else takes the time to understand someone else's point of view. If that goes a bit meta, like, we live in our own heads so much that it's really nice when someone reflects on how someone else thinks or their point of view. So, that's my one characteristic. SAMI: That's really interesting. And how have you found, I guess, in the world of consultancy, and when you're working with products, how have you found that's kind of helped you when it comes to the product ownership side of things? JARED: Well, it's a constant reminder to do it myself; that's for one thing, especially dealing with a lot of different clients and a lot of different people. It's always really important to think about their perspective, their own customers' perspective. SAMI: That's cool. I'll hand back to Will, but, Will, I'm not just going to hand it back to you for free, right? You're also going to have to do an icebreaker. WILL: Let's do it. SAMI: Will, would you rather receive a shout-out from the CEO at a company all-hands meeting or a private word of thanks from them? WILL: Ooh, I'm usually a private person, so probably private. But I have learned in my leadership, and I've learned this, this is a lesson I've learned: it's like, praise publicly, but then, like, reprimand privately. And so, I think majority of the people like that. But I'm just a private individual person. So, I'm like, just tell me, and I'm okay with that. I don't need everyone else to tell me and to say, "Hey, Will, you did a good job." Because yeah, it just brings pressure and all of that to me. So, I'm more of a private individual. Because also, I can ask more questions then. I can get more detail around like, "Yo, what did you like? Why are you saying a thank you and a shout-out?" So, that's where I'm at. SAMI: Okay, I'll hand back to Svenja. SVENJA: Yeah, I think we should give it back to you as well. So, because I am able to open a website, so that's another lesson I learned: how to type it in. SAMI: [chuckles] SVENJA: And I do find a question for you. Since nobody skipped, we will remove that option for you, Sami. So, you only get one question and that is, what is one thing we would never guess about you? SAMI: Oh, I love that. Should I say how much I hate podcasting? SVENJA: [laughs] SAMI: No, I'm kidding. I haven't done it enough yet to know if I hate it. Ooh, one thing. That kind of means I've got to reveal something, right? Because you would never guess this thing, and you would never know this thing. So, I am 32 years old, and my intention was never to be a developer, ever. So, I actually wanted to be a psychotherapist, a cognitive behavioral therapist, to be precise. And I started on a master's course. I did it for six weeks, and then I realized I couldn't handle it. I had placements in a hospital, and the cases that we were dealing with it was too much for me. It was too overwhelming, and I didn't have the skills to kind of handle that as well as my own personal world. So, at the age of about...I've got to remember what age it was. I think it was about 25 years old, 24, 25 years old. I already had one kid, and I was married with one child. And what am I going to do? My whole plan to be a psychotherapist that I'd done my undergraduate degree to go towards, and now I was on this master's just kind of fell apart. So, it's like, what's the easiest thing I can do? And that was to learn to code, right [chuckles]? Well, I'd always been good at computers. I'd always been fixing things. I was always the one at home who'd been asked, you know, "There's a problem with this computer." Normally, it was the printer, and I hate printers, but that's for a totally other episode. I could do a whole episode on printers. My one next to me is currently plugged in. I don't use Wi-Fi—Bluetooth with it because it's just not worth it. But either way, so I wrote my first line of code when I was 25. That was the first time I ever saw code, wrote HTML, and knew what it was. So, I never wanted to be a developer. Here I am all those years later, but it was never a plan, and I've found myself here. But I'm quite happy for it. SVENJA: That is so interesting and definitely something I wouldn't have guessed. SAMI: Yeah, it's been one hell of a journey, shall we say, but an exciting one. SVENJA: I would be super interested how the others of you stepped into the world of tech, so to say. JARED: Similar sort of thing to Sami in that I've always been interested, always been the sort of more technical, geekier person of the school and the social groups. And then, at uni, I actually took some computer science classes, and then quickly felt very confused and ended up doing a bachelor of commerce in marketing and management instead, which was a lot more straightforward basic business degree, sort of tick some things off. But still, like, throughout all that time, always just loved tech, loved reading about it, loved dabbling. And I landed a job at a previous company that I just got a lot of freedom to help out where I needed, problem-solve, do lots of different things. It was quite a small business. I was able to level up a whole bunch of different skills, like some technical and some sort of more managerial as well. That's sort of how I got a lot of my knowledge and then moved on from there. How about you, Rémy? RÉMY: I started in tech right away after high school. So, I had studied...I think we still call it multimedia. It was communication, coding, design, sound, video. I learned how to make step motions, you know, a lot of different things. It was kind of doing everything and trying to find the one thing that you actually like, and I found mine, which was actually coding. I think I found what I liked when I was in school. I remember struggling on math homework. I don't have a very high background in math, but I used to enjoy it. I remember struggling on some homework, and the sensation when you finally find the answer, and you finally resolve the problem it was amazing. And I felt that again in coding. Like, you have a bug, or you have a feature, and you can't make it. And you try again, and you find some clues, but it doesn't work. And at some point, it works, and you finally made it. And it's an amazing sensation. I had it again, like yesterday. It's quite common. I love that so much. So, I think that's how I decided, okay, that's what I want to do every day. SVENJA: Thank you so much, Rémy and Jared. What about you, Will? WILL: Yeah, I think I've told this story before on the podcast, but I always love telling it again. I actually lost my job, and I was really struggling. And if you know me, fashion is not my thing at all, and I was working at this fashion store. It was this clothing store. I hated it. I hated it. Like, there's no shortage on that. I hated it [laughs]. I was working there, and then I also started working at this insurance place. We sold travelers insurance. So, it was very interesting to see how that works. And yeah, I'm not going to say too much about it, but yes, how that works [laughs]. But at that company, the one good thing about it was they were like, as long as you get your work done, you could do whatever you want. And so, one day, I was at home, and my partner was like, "You're struggling. You're just trying to figure out what you're trying to do, and you're struggling." So, she kind of walked me through, like, "What do you want to do?" And I was...when Sami mentioned the printer, I laughed because I was that person also. And printers are tricky because you never know what the real issue is. You just got to tinker with it and hope it works. And yes, you never get the same answer twice, I feel sometimes [laughs]. SAMI: I feel like all our listeners who are kind of really good at fixing printers are thinking like, oh my gosh, I'm going to work at thoughtbot now. I'm going to be an amazing developer one day. WILL: You could. Why not [laughs]? And it's interesting you say that because, like, I was 29 or 30 whenever I started in the field. So, I was a little bit late, I feel sometimes, to get into development. But my wife, she asked me, "You're struggling. You need to do something because this is not going to work. We got to change it up." And I was like, well, I grew up in a small town in Louisiana, in the south of United States, and we didn't have anything tech there. It was just a rural place. And so I never had the opportunity to learn anything about computers. I guess the printer and stuff just came naturally to me, and this was before YouTube and all of that. So, she challenged me. She said, "Go and learn it. Go figure it out. Go learn it." I did. And I forgot who mentioned; somebody mentioned something about being easy getting into development. It was not for me. I remember so many times at the coffee shop just, like, I don't know what I am doing. And if you know anything about me, I sometimes don't have the patience to slow down. And so, I came in, and I wanted to be a senior developer and produce like a senior developer. And I was sadly mistaken that that's not how it work. But five years now, I am a senior developer, so I've enjoyed it. I would not change it for anything, and I love it. So, it's been a good change for me, so I love tech. SAMI: I think it's so helpful to kind of hear realistic expectations about how long it does take. It really is a skill. Some people often ask me, "What is one characteristic that kind of indicates success in the field?" And there isn't just one. But I definitely think that the ability to sit and spend time is so helpful. Because if you can spend time with something and just sit there and, like, be patient, like you were saying, often, you will get to a solution, and it will happen. But it's about almost slowing yourself down and slowing your mind and your brain down. And we kind of call it in industry, you know, the concept of having a rubber duck, which is also a form of I'm stuck on something. I just need to speak this out, not necessarily with someone who can respond, but in a way that allows me to verbalize slowly what's going on. And you'll be surprised how often you reach a solution. So, that's really interesting. So, yeah, we've got this great series coming. We have some great guests lined up. The advantage of doing this series over in Europe, West Asia, and Africa is we're going to get access to some guests within our time zones, within our region that this podcast has not been able to get access to before. And so, we are really excited about the people that we're going to bring on, and you're going to get to hear some of the most incredible podcasts that you've heard. But we don't have a name. We still don't have a name. And I kind of set the challenge at the beginning of this podcast of, well, let's just come up with one. So, who wants to give a shout-out and think about, you know, what this name is going to be? Just to clarify, it's still going to be called the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, but where you see that kind of title of the individual episode, it will probably have a prefix of kind of the series name just so you know it's from us. Victoria, I feel like you're hiding away somewhere in the background, and I feel like you've got some suggestions up your sleeve. VICTORIA: Yeah, so I love the name of the podcast. I like when I network, and I usually say that, "I'm, like, the co-host of the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots." So, I want to keep the name to be fun. And maybe it's giant robots in a different action like Giant Robots High-Fiving Other Giant Robots or Giant Robots Without Borders, or something like that. That's what I'm thinking. SVENJA: I really like the Giant Robots Without Borders. I really like it. JARED: Sami, you had a good one that I quite liked as well in the spirit of what we've been talking about: Giant Robots On Tour. SAMI: Oh yeah, Giant Robots On Tour. That makes it sound, to me, like we're just going out and having a really fun time, not like we might not be doing sensible things, but we're going on tour. But that kind of also indicates, you know, what happens on tour stays on tour. And we probably need to be conscious that other people will listen to this. So, we have to maybe, like, tone it down if we are the giant robots who are on tour. But yeah, I like Giant Robots On Tour. This is cool. We're actually going to name our series. VICTORIA: I do think it would be funny if it was, like, less...I don't want to say less violent, like, Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots, like, Giant Robots Knitting Socks or something, like [laughs], fun, nice, but maybe not as exciting. SVENJA: Baking Bread Together [laughs]. VICTORIA: Giant Robots Baking Bread actually sounds pretty cool. WILL: Giant Robots On Tour because it reminded me since we're talking about the different region, the great English rock band, the Beatles. That's what it reminded me of. So, shout out to the UK. SAMI: Yeah. I actually often drive past...do you know where the Abbey Road studios were? And there's that famous picture of the Beatles on the album cover of where...I don't know which album it is. They're crossing that zebra crossing across the road. There's that picture of all of them. And what you get now is you get loads of tourists. And so, you're trying to drive your car, and they're just hanging out on the zebra crossing, trying to replicate that picture that they had on the album cover. If you're not familiar with what I'm talking about, just Google "Beatles zebra crossing album cover," and you'll get an idea of kind of what I have to face when I'm just trying to drive from A to B sometimes. VICTORIA: Well, that's also part of, you know, bringing up why we were wanting to have some hosts in the Europe, West Asia, and Africa region, is there's a lot of context and things like calling it a zebra crossing. We call it a crosswalk. And just having more context and connection with our guests who are from that area would be really great. I don't know if you all saw the pictures, but for the last RubyConf that was in San Diego, I actually made robot costumes out of cardboard boxes. And there's absolutely a picture of me in a giant robot costume sitting on a lounge chair outside in the sun. So, it might be perfect for your series. SAMI: I think that's a great way to name things, right? Like, if you have a picture that works for a thing, then you have to kind of go with a name like that. Do we vote? How do we come up with it? Is this a democracy? Probably not. JARED: Well, I think one thing we haven't clarified is that Sami, you're our primary co-host for the European adventure. So, maybe you should get the decider. Should you dictate to us? SAMI: I feel like it's almost worth it kind of being the primary host just so I get to pick the name. So yeah, sure, I'm going to decide, so it's Sami's Giant Robots is going to be the name of this series. No, I'm kidding. Let's go with...okay, I'm stuck between without borders and on tour. I'm really stuck between those two. So, no one else can see this. I'm going to say, like, hands up if you want without borders. Hands up if you want on tour. Okay. Okay. Okay. We're going to be calling our new series, with the most exciting guests that you've ever seen, Giant Robots On Tour. You've heard it here first. It's been announced. WILL: Thank you for joining us. I look forward to the Giant Robots On Tour. I am excited about it. I love that we have the diversity at thoughtbot to be able to have this limited series. So, I'm excited to see what comes out of it. So, I can't wait to check it out. I'll be one of the first listeners on every podcast that comes out. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.

Host Victoria Guido chats with Jaclyn Siu, the co-founder of Starcycle, an AI platform designed as a COO for small businesses. First, Jaclyn describes her entrepreneurial journey and what led her to Starcycle, detailing her earlier ventures, such as helping to scale a men's styling app and a software platform for authenticating high-end art. Her ultimate goal is to make the tools and experiences typically reserved for startup founders accessible to small business owners, who comprise most of the global business ecosystem. She outlines how Starcycle supports crucial phases in a business’s lifecycle—start-up, sale, or shutdown—by automating operations and documentation, easing burdens on business owners. Jaclyn also touches on the importance of personal connections and genuine curiosity in conducting user research and developing products that genuinely meet the needs of small businesses. She believes we can achieve this by being deeply rooted in empathy and strategically using technology like Starcycle. Starcycle (https://starcycle.ai/) Follow Starcycle on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/starcycleai/) or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/jaclynsiu). Follow Jaclyn Siu on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaclynsiu/). Visit her website: jaclynsiu.com (https://jaclynsiu.com/) Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Jaclyn Siu, Co-Founder of Starcycle, the AI COO for small businesses. Jaclyn, thank you for joining me. JACLYN: Thank you for having me. It's so fun to be here. VICTORIA: Great to be here with you as well. Before we get into learning more about Starcycle, can you tell me what's going on in your life outside of work that's exciting for you? JACLYN: This is a very big departure from what I do on a day-to-day basis, but I am a huge coffee fanatic. And so, I love sampling all different kinds of coffee beans from around the world. And this morning, actually, I just finished the last cup from this amazing roastery in Osaka, Japan. They're called Mel Coffee; shout out to Mel Coffee. That's what I spend a lot of my time outside of work doing is trying different coffee beans. VICTORIA: No, I love it. I love coffee as well. Actually, I am currently out of espresso beans. We have a fancy espresso machine maker. It's like our one big luxury in the house, and I don't have any coffee beans for it. So, I might need some recommendations from you [laughs] on what to get. JACLYN: My sympathies on the lack of coffee, but I have plenty of recommendations. We can absolutely jam on this afterwards. VICTORIA: Okay. Because you've traveled quite a bit, of all the places that you've been, where is the best cup of coffee that you've had? JACLYN: I mean, I definitely have my favorites. In New York where I am currently, I would say that honor belongs to The Coffee Project. Actually, it's a tie between The Coffee Project and Say Coffee. In Berlin, where I was based for the last seven years or so, I would say that honor goes to Bonanza Coffee. I used to go there every single day. And I attribute a lot of my success in Berlin to all the beautiful cups of coffee that they served me. In other places, I would say what comes to mind is for sure Mel Coffee in Osaka, Japan, also, Glitch Coffee in Tokyo. In Hong Kong, that would be Craft Coffee. Hong Kong is where I'm from originally, so I have a very big fondness for any local roasteries. And I am going to stop there because, otherwise, this would become a coffee podcast, and I don't think this is what we're here for [laughs]. VICTORIA: I think there's a pretty strong coffee interest in our listeners, but they can tell me if I'm wrong. No, I think that's great, and it tells us a little bit about yourself. So, you've lived in all these different places and all these backgrounds. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about how your background led you to starting Starcycle. JACLYN: Starcycle is my third company. I'm a three-time founder, advisor, investor, and mentor. I built my very first startup in my senior year of college, which was a men's personal styling app that surfaced shoppable outfits based on your calendar, style preferences, weather, and other things. And decided quite quickly early on, about a year in, that I wanted some real-world experience before understanding what it's like to run and build a company. I realized, hey, I need to know what it's like to be in one before I can build one. So, I spent the next decade-plus in the creative culture and tech spaces, everything from sales and partnerships to marketing growth and operations. I worked on really exciting things from album releases for Rihanna to closing brand deals with TikTok. So, that led me to New York, to Berlin, and now back to New York, which has been really fun. My second startup was co-founded over the height of the pandemic, and we built software for blue chip art galleries and working with them to authenticate blue chip and high-end physical art pieces. We authenticated $63 million worth of art in the company's lifetime. The even tide of that, so towards the end of my second venture, that kind of initially planted the seed for Starcycle because we had been facing some more difficult times, and we were facing some pretty difficult decisions. I just had this Eureka moment, so to speak, where I was like, hey, I know firsthand how difficult it is to found a business. I want to use my knowledge to help at least one person get over the finish line. And I explored so many different permutations of that. I spoke to startup founders to small business owners, spent hundreds of hours exploring different ways that I could use tech to empower founders, and eventually ended up with Starcycle, which, as you mentioned earlier, is the AI COO for small businesses. And what we do is we are supporting business owners at the mission-critical stages of their business life cycle, so the startup phase, the selling phase, which is when they're hoping to sell or get acquired, and also the shutdown phase. And so, we review and parse through key documentation and automate key operational tasks such as licensing, identifying engagement terms, drafting disclosure statements, et cetera, et cetera. So, it's very much born out of my own experience as the COO and also as an operator for many different kinds of businesses. I grew up in a very entrepreneurial family of restauranteurs. My dad runs his own practice as a doctor. And I have cousins and other extended family members who are accountants and have their own practices. Somehow, half of my generation in my family are all startup founders now, so that has been really cool just being immersed in that, and also, yeah, wanting to use tech to give back, essentially. VICTORIA: I love that connection with your family and how that mindset is a part of your culture and who you are. It's really interesting to hear and replay a little bit back of what you said about, you know, you knew you were entrepreneurial, but you wanted more experience. And then, you got to go through starting your own company several times. And now you're trying to share the experience you got from that with other founders. JACLYN: Exactly. And what drew me to small businesses, really, was that startups do have quite a lot of help. Of course, we can argue perhaps a separate episode on how this support is distributed and whether or not it's equitable, but startups do tend to hog a lot of the headlines and a lot of the glamour and the glitz of being a founder. And where I was really drawn to was the day-to-day coffee shop owners; for example, that was a big one, or just the fact that 99% of businesses around the world are considered small businesses. And I said there has to be a way to take a lot of the great tools and services that we have enjoyed as startup founders and kind of make that a lot more accessible to the people who really need it. And so, that was really the big bow on top for me to start working on Starcycle. VICTORIA: Yeah. It's interesting to think about accessibility and inclusivity, and not just access to funding, but access to tools, access to knowledge, and support, and getting your business up and off the ground. JACLYN: Exactly. I think the knowledge piece is a big one. And with knowledge, of course, comes support, as you say, and both of those things require a lot of hands-on education but also guidance. And one thing that I've learned over my career as an operator but also as a serial founder is how much that initial touch point really matters for folks. And so, when I say that, I mean, just think about the very first time you encountered a new piece of technology and the feeling that inspired in you and how you felt like that new piece of tech, for better or for worse, reinforced, or not, that feeling. I've been really lucky to be at the forefront of helping a lot of people navigate these experiences, from helping fashion brands at the very beginning of my career, helping fashion brands understand social media. This was before sponsored content was a thing. We still called them bloggers back in the day. Yeah, teaching them that social media is going to be an asset for brand marketing, and kind of being on the first wave of tech partnerships, and embracing social media as a platform, to working with artists to get them onboarded and comfortable with streaming. So, I was at Roc Nation at the time when streaming was really just starting to take off. It was the same year that Jay acquired Tidal. And so, there was a seismic shift in how the music industry as a whole was grappling with this new tech. Fast forward to working with art galleries, probably one of the most difficult technical nuts to crack, so to speak, and working with traditionally folks who reject new technology and are wary of software that doesn't offer the same level of discretion or convenience that they are used to, and working to get them excited about software solutions that are built just for them. And so, the through line, for me, you know, as I look back, is how can I take something scary, and intimidating, and difficult to understand for your person who is chronically offline, so to speak, and translate that into an experience that they look forward to that makes them see, "Oh, this is not just some sci-fi hubbub; it's not just what the Yahoo's at Silicon Valley are up to; this is going to help me and what I care about"? And that particular thought process, that particular intersection, is what really gets me going every day. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. And it reminds me of friends that I have who have really deep domain expertise in certain things like nutrition, and coaching, and early childhood intervention and development. And they're asking me, someone who has, like, a connection to founders and startups, about, like, "How do I get my thing going? Like, how do I take this knowledge and build a business around it?" So, maybe you can tell me a little more about what research you're doing with these groups of people, with these small businesses. And what kind of questions are you asking, and what kind of things are you finding? JACLYN: Sure. So, I started with a hypothesis, which was this slightly more nebulous notion that everyone will have an AI copilot. And so, I started to workshop what that could look like for a business owner, specifically because 78% of small businesses are owned and operated by one person. And my expertise or experience as a founder is having had a co-founding team where we can fill each other's gaps, and lift each other up, and work on different things. And a lot of small business owners don't have that luxury. So, I said, okay, this is a problem that I have noticed. I am going to explore this to every single nook and cranny I can possibly find. And that led me to experiment with different ways to apply AI to this particular problem. I started looking at the early stage founding stage, where business owners are identifying their next steps to get their next big thing off the ground. They're navigating bureaucracy and figuring out what licenses they need what paperwork they need to file to make certain things a reality. And that, to me, felt like an easy place to start because it is a very well-documented and well-accounted-for space. So, we quickly shipped an early beta feature just to gauge market sentiment and to see what people were really looking for. There really is no shortcut here, in my opinion. It's really about putting in the time and the effort to talk to everyone that is interested in finding a new solution for something that has deeply plagued them in some way or another. In a way, putting on different hats as a psychologist almost, like, understanding where their pain points are really stemming from. Is it, like, an operational thing? Is it an emotional thing? All the way to introducing them to something new, which involves reimagining what that user experience could look like, all the way to just being open and having a clear line of communication. I talk to our users almost every day. We're on calls; we're on emails. And I just love hearing from them, and they know that they can come to me and talk to me about things. I've consulted for some of our small business owners before who come to me with different questions like, "Hey, can you help me with this business plan?" Anyway, so, through all of those conversations, I started to stitch together a few things. The first being that AI is changing so rapidly, and, of course, this is something that is challenging but also incredibly exciting because no one really knows where it's going. We're all kind of testing out our hypotheses in real-time. We're all building towards that reality we want to see. So, noticing that a lot of co-pilot promises we were still, or at least I feel like, we're still a little bit far away from that. And so, I started examining, okay, what is AI already currently really good at and will only get better at? And how can that be applied to something that all business owners have to face? And so, I expanded my search into other life stages of a business, and I identified that over hundreds of hours of conversations as the M&A stage and the closure stage. The M&A space is very exciting. It is also very well accounted for. And, currently, I'm spending quite a lot of time looking into the bankruptcy aspect, the end of life, something that, unfortunately, a lot of businesses will have to go through. And yeah, really studying that space, deeply realizing that we can probably find a, if I may use this as a verb, a "turbo tax" for all of these different key operational moments for every small business, right? So, we can, quote, unquote, "turbo tax" starting a business. We can, quote, unquote, "turbo tax" trying to sell your business. We can turbo tax, closing down your life's work and trying to find a good place to put it to rest. VICTORIA: How do you find people to be a part of the research? And how do you make sure that you're being inclusive or, you know, going after the right groups? JACLYN: To the best of my ability. I start within my own networks. Luckily, since at this point, I have built quite a lot of friendships and relationships just within founders of all different kinds, I started by reaching out to different founders and just approached it with a lot of curiosity. I was like, "Hey, what are you working on? What is troubling you? How could I help?" And approaching it from a place of "How can I help?" as opposed to "How can you help me?" You being, of course, the founder I was speaking to. Yeah, really just being in the position of I want to learn from you, I would say, in hindsight, has been the key to a lot of folks being willing to speak with me. And then, of course, on the call itself, when I do manage to get that scheduled, when I speak to them, and doing everything to make them feel heard, to make them feel welcomed. I show up to every single call prepared about this person. I have my questions prepared. Usually, within Calendly, for example, people should fill out what their profile kind of is. So, we do a lot of that pre-work and get that out of the way. And it also helps me prepare for the call. Weirdly enough, it's almost like preparing for a podcast interview. And then, from those calls, I always ask like, "Hey, I really appreciate you spending time talking to me. Do you know one person who would be willing to do the same thing?" And I would say, nine times out of 10, the answer is "Yes." And then, I get a follow-up email being like, "I loved talking to you. Here's my friend who is also facing a similar thing. I already told them about our conversation. They would love to speak with you." And it just kind of flows from there. And so, I guess to sum it all up, it really is being thoughtful with your relationships and letting that compounding effect work itself. And at this stage, like, as an early-stage founder, you and your...I don't like the word reputation, but I can't think of a better one right now. Your reputation is really what the currency is, and people typically want to help. And they also want to feel helpful, and they want you to show that they were helpful. And yeah, that has been something that I've seen a lot of success with personally, whether it's through user interviews or approaching it from, like, a sales and partnerships perspective. VICTORIA: I agree. I think I found the same thing where, what you want to call it, and it's your reputation or your authenticity and your genuine interest in solving the problem that you're going after. I think a lot of people are, you know, of course, they want to talk about things that are bothering them, and they want to see other founders succeed, and it's part of a community. So, it's really nice to hear that's been working for you. JACLYN: I'm so lucky that this particular thing is what really excites me about being a founder is: having that opportunity to have these conversations. Also, at this point, probably my superpower that I feel like I can draw from so many different experiences to be a good sounding board for whoever it is that I'm talking to. And I remember this so clearly from my previous venture where we were building software for art galleries, and we had some of the most commercially successful artists and art galleries of modern times. And they went on record saying that, you know, they're switching their solutions, or they're coming on board for the first time. And they're not considering any other potential incumbents or competitors simply due to our ability or my ability to talk to them like equals, talk to them like people. They were like, "We spoke to so many founders who were building different kinds of tech solutions for the art industry or the art world. And we always really felt kind of small talking to them because they were throwing a lot of jargon at us. They essentially wanted us to operate under a cloud of confusion so that, hopefully, we would just go along with whatever they say. And you were really the only one who would sit down, take the time to explain, take the time to hear us out, and kind of meet us where we are and see us people." And I was really kind of taken aback by that. And I do think that advice applies generally, but especially when it comes to speaking to folks who identify so deeply with what they do, like small business owners, it is so key to really just treat them with respect. I mean, ultimately, that's really what it's about. Like, you respect that they know things that you don't, and you don't lord anything you know that they don't over them. VICTORIA: I really appreciate that perspective. And I'm curious if maybe there are some core values from your educational background in journalism that flows through into your being a founder and how you have these conversations with people. Are there any core values that translate from that? JACLYN: I love to listen. I'm just such a curious person. Yeah, I guess you could say that it is a journalistic approach to, you know, ask open questions and let the person feel like they are steering the conversation, and, you know, being that safe space that they know whatever it is they're saying is being taken seriously. One of my personal philosophies when it comes to founding is that I let the problem tell me how it wants to be solved. I have a general direction, right? Like, my North Star is that I want to use tech to empower founders; in the same way, you could say that you might start writing a piece with the general idea of like, hey, this is what I want to write about. And I'm open to letting my subjects kind of steer where they really care about so that, like, I end up writing something that is compelling for everybody. And so, yeah, I'm always open to finding the best way. This openness and curiosity, really, has led me to meet some really interesting people and dive through some very fascinating rabbit holes that I might not have done so otherwise. VICTORIA: Oh, that's really cool. No, I like that a lot. That's super interesting. MID-ROLL AD: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops. VICTORIA: So, in these conversations, you're having in your early discovery process, were there any points where you decided to pivot your strategy based on what you learned? JACLYN: I would say that the most interesting point was...I think this is probably, like, the clearest example of...whether it's a pivot, or, like, a redirection, whatever you want to call it. This was before I kind of arrived at the stage of bankruptcy or the idea of bankruptcy, which is where I'm really diving deep to at the moment. I had already spoken to a lot of founders in kind of the early stage of starting the business when I was talking to them about, like, "How can a tool like Starcycle help you on your journey?" And a lot of them were like, the ultimate milestone was, of course, to sell the business, that they want that ROI, that they want to know that, you know, something that they've worked so hard on was going to end up in great hands. And so, I started examining that side of the spectrum. So, that was, I guess, refocusing number one, which was, okay, I want to understand the buy-sell space, kind of the M&A space, to hear what success factors led people there. I spoke to everyone I could think of on that end of the spectrum, you know, people who had sold a business, people who tried to sell but didn't sell, people who acquired a business, people in private equity who are looking to buy and operate a business, you know, different buy and sell marketplaces, so on and so forth. And this one conversation with the head of M&A at a language company it was a nice chat. And he kind of mentioned as a throwaway, "Oh, by the way, like, one thing we also look at are distressed assets." That was it. And I said, "Okay, let's unpack that a bit," and just kind of left the rest of my questions. And we started going in that direction. And then, I realized it's a different side of the same coin, exploring M&A and closure, because they are, unfortunately, very closely related to one another. They are both on the ends, like, end of the life cycle. And so, that one comment which might not have occurred, you know, let's say if the person didn't feel like he had a safe space to kind of open up about his process, that has sent me on another journey to really, really dig deep into this very opaque and difficult area, where I'm actually, again, really, really excited to really unpack: How can we help people at the time of need, and how can we use tech to do a lot of the heavy lifting to free them up for very emotionally taxing tasks? Which, of course does happen at that end of the life cycle. I still very much believe in the overall idea of using AI to help small business owners end to end, but really, I found this particular wedge because I guess I was open to that. And someone dropped the crumb, and I was like, "Let's take that path. Let's talk about it. " VICTORIA: So, it had a high emotional element there, and there's a lot of tasks associated with it that would make it a good use case for AI to support that particular phase of the life cycle? JACLYN: Yeah, that's absolutely my hypothesis right now. I've been validating this with different small business owners who have, unfortunately, had to close their business. I'm also talking to bankruptcy attorneys. And so, yeah, I guess we'll see what that process looks like. By the time this episode is up and running, I might have found the right angle to tackle this problem, or I might have just found some other opening to look at. So, I guess it really is up for grabs at the moment, which is a very exciting part of being at the early stage, but, of course, also slightly terrifying [laughs]. VICTORIA: Well, we'll have to have you back on in a year to check in and see how things have progressed. But it makes sense to me. And in all of my recent experience just hearing from founders around San Diego, it sounds like if you're going to be a founder, you are going to have to shut down a business at least once [laughs]. Like, usually, you found multiple businesses and that means that you do have to close or, you know, go through this final action at least one time. You will be very lonely being a founder, and I can see having support through that time and having it be easy could be really helpful and make it seem, you know, easy and maybe even just, like, make it easier to start things up again, too. JACLYN: For sure. And I love that you touched on the starting again because founders, typically, more often than not, have this very stubborn optimism that we're like, we're going to figure it out one day, and we're going to do it. And at the risk of sounding a bit hokey, bankruptcy can be a beautiful thing. It is, of course, incredibly emotionally difficult. But what I find really incredible is the notion of bankruptcy was really born out of this idea of we recognize that you took a huge risk. And even though the risk didn't pan out in the way that we all hoped that it would, we don't want to penalize you further for having taken that risk. So, here is some protection so that when you are ready again, you can start again. And I just find that sentiment very, very powerful. And I've certainly seen that to be true in my own experience. So, this really is, like, I feel like my heart and soul problem, you know what I mean? Again, of course, I'm back to my core value I mentioned earlier. I'm open to letting the problem tell me how it wants to be solved. And so, I'm going through that process again to find, okay, what is it in this journey that I can solve with AI? And so, yeah, we can check back in however long, maybe six months, a year or so, and then see where. I would love for you to hold me to that. VICTORIA: Absolutely. I will. I'd love that. Yeah. And, well, on that note, then, what are the biggest challenges you see on the horizon in the next six months? JACLYN: I would say the biggest challenge that's coming on the horizon really is, to me, what is very exciting. I alluded to this earlier, but it really is this notion that, of course, we all recognize that AI is disrupting. It has already disrupted a lot of what we know to be true. We're all just testing out our hypotheses in real-time. No one really knows in what direction this wind is blowing. I don't think people could even agree on what AGI means, right? Like, AGI, is it, like, a very, very general thing, or is it AGI for X, AGI for Y? Like, what does that look like? And I don't think there's, like, a consensus on what this looks like, right? So, in a way, every founder building in this space, including myself, we're all just working towards what we think that reality is and what reality it is that we want to see. It's a huge challenge because we're quite literally building what has never really existed before. And it is a feeling that I'm personally, luckily, very familiar with, I get super energized by. We're in the beginning. Everyone says this, right? "We're so early," but we really, really are so early in this new wave. And I'm really looking forward to drawing on all of my experiences being at the forefront of various other big changes and applying them to this very particular change. And then, of course, I'm also a little bit nervous about this. I think anyone would be nervous knowing that the tide could change at any moment. I'm also not delusional about this per se, but I'm definitely optimistic. I think we're going to see a lot of generational companies built at every single possible intersection of AI and something. So, it's like AI for small businesses, right? Or you could even go even more granular. There's going to be an AI for hair salons. There's going to be AI for coffee roasters. There's going to be just so many ways to capture this new energy and this revolution that I am very intimidated, but I'm really excited about this. VICTORIA: So, the gravity and the size and scope of the change, and that being unknown, and also what you mentioned on the tech stack, having that variability and just knowing you might have to pivot or change very quickly, is an exciting challenge as well. JACLYN: It is. It definitely is. And, of course, it's a tough one to solve for sure. Any founder who wants to build something, really now is the time to just give it a shot because there are so many intersections up for grabs, and that doesn't come around very often. VICTORIA: That's really great. And I love your approach to that by just trying to see how can you use your expertise and follow the problem and see what solution comes up that is worth focusing on? So, I really appreciate you sharing that. I'm curious if you know what success looks like six months from now or even five years from now for Starcycle. JACLYN: I would say in six months, I would envision, at this stage, having maybe a small suite, but a suite nonetheless, of different aspects of the small business life cycle, the mission-critical stages I spoke about, having the, quote, unquote, "different turbo taxable features" live. And so, we're already able to start really moving the needle for these folks. We have our first test feature live in beta. We're already helping close to 1,200 business owners. So, I'm really looking forward to just increasing that number. In five years, I would really love for us to be at that stage where we are helping small business owners end to end. And so, I do see AI growing at a rate or the capabilities of AI growing at a rate way faster than any of us can imagine. So, I'm going to just throw this out there and say, in five years, I would love for Starcycle to be, like, a true AI COO on every single step of the way, like, a real strategic thought partner, executional partner for your small business that you otherwise wouldn't have. And you're in the trenches with your AI COO, and we're going to help you build the best business you possibly can. And we'll take care of your end to end. And that, I would say, is my ultimate grand vision. So, I guess let's check back and see what happens. VICTORIA: I like that. And, you know, that's a really awesome future vision to build towards. And in the immediate term, I'm curious to ask you more about Starcycle and how AI and people work together to give leaders confidence that the COO is giving them good answers and all that. JACLYN: One thing that we noticed while we were developing our beta and continuing to improve on our current offering is coming to the realization that we want to focus on what AI is currently already really good at and will only get better over time and, to us, that was data parsing, data optimization, formatting, data extraction. And so, that's where the next immediate stage of product development is going to go is really leaning into this data extraction aspect. And we feel like this true thought partner; strategic partner thing will happen over time once we have, like, a lot bigger pool of data of your business to work with, where we can connect dots that you might not have otherwise been able to connect, whether it's because you physically do not have the time, or you may not have the knowledge to, let's say, comb through your monthly P&Ls to draw out certain trends in the way that AI can really do for you. So, we're acknowledging the current limitations of AI while maintaining optimism on kind of the long run of what we think AI is going to do. And so, I think for the small business owners that we're currently supporting, we are very much on deck as humans to help them with some of the more strategic moments. And our users know that they can find us anytime. And for a lot of the more data operational action item-driven tasks that they need help with, then AI can step in fairly comfortably and help them in the majority of the cases. VICTORIA: That sounds really cool. I like how you broke that up. Do you have anything else you'd like to promote? JACLYN: I'm open to so many different kinds of conversations. And every single conversation is helpful. So, please reach out or sign up, try the product. We look at every single survey. I respond to every single survey personally with follow-up questions if you'll allow them. So, I really just want to help anyone who's listening. Whatever problem it is that you're dealing with on your founding journey, I'm here to help. So, in whatever way that I can help you, please let me know. I would love to hear from you. VICTORIA: I read in your background that also includes asking you questions about your time working with Rihanna. Is that right? You're open? JACLYN: [laughs] Correct. I suppose. Yes. If that is of interest, we can certainly talk about it [laughs]. VICTORIA: Oh, that's great. No, I love that, the detail on that. And then, also, we didn't get to talk everything else about your background. You also have that you're an angel investor, and you also are just a general incredible mentor and coach. So, I don't know if there's anything else you wanted to share about that. JACLYN: I think part of it is also really driven by my passion to empower folks with technology. And a lot of that component, as we've alluded to multiple times over this podcast, is the educational component. And I think I've been really lucky to be exposed to a lot of new things throughout my life. And I want to play even some small part in helping other people encounter tech in what they perceive to be a safe and gentle way. And so, that's what I'm really excited about. I do occasionally write small checks to companies and founders that I believe in. I spend time guest lecturing at colleges and also mentoring young girls and young women. And, generally, I'm an open book if you want to ask me about how I taught myself stop motion video editing to do something for Rihanna, all the way to how on earth did you find it in yourself to do a third company. I just want to help anyone and everyone who wants to make that difference in the world to be that difference that they're looking for. VICTORIA: Yeah, you know what always gets me excited about tech? Is when people use tech to solve simple problems that helps everyday people. You know, I'm from Washington D.C. I spend time on the side from doing consulting with big federal agencies. I was helping startup nonprofits that were working to end homelessness and solve communication problems with nonprofit organizations sharing their services to people who needed them and that type of tech. And I've been in California now for three years, and I've started rebuilding my networking here. And I'm starting to find those people who are working on those kinds of projects. So, I'm really excited to build a little community here in San Diego and to start giving back to some of those groups again. JACLYN: Yeah, that's really, really awesome. And that really is what keeps drawing me back to founding is knowing that whether it's founding a non-profit initiative, or a startup, or opening up a coffee shop, like, I keep coming to coffee shops because, of course, I have a deep appreciation for them. But, ultimately, it really is such a tangible way to provide and to give back. And I can't quit. VICTORIA: I mean, I could quit. I could quit and just, like, rock climb and be bad at surfing for the rest of my life, but I won't. But yes, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us here today, Jaclyn. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. And you can find me on thoughtbotsocial@vguido. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.

Host Victoria Guido interviews Krish Ramineni, founder and CEO of Fireflies, who provides insights into the evolution of Fireflies. This AI meeting assistant transcribes and summarizes meetings in multiple languages. He explains the rapid advancements in AI models that have allowed Fireflies to expand its language support and improve its transcription and note-taking capabilities. The conversation shifts to the broader AI industry, where Krish comments on democratizing AI technology, making it more accessible and practical for various applications beyond just number crunching. He emphasizes the importance of AI in enhancing productivity and enabling small teams to achieve large-scale impacts. Victoria and Krish explore the future of work with AI, discussing the balance between job creation and replacement. Krish argues that rejecting AI is akin to dismissing essential technological advancements like email, highlighting businesses' need to adapt and embrace AI tools. They also touch on Fireflies' journey to enterprise-level adoption, addressing challenges like data security and compliance. Krish shares his optimism about AI's potential to augment human productivity and creativity, positioning AI as a transformative force that can empower individuals and organizations to achieve unprecedented efficiency and innovation. Fireflies (https://fireflies.ai/) Follow Fireflies on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/fireflies-inc/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/firefliesapp), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/firefliesai/), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZHSvxWARx0TRK77t1AbY0A), or X (https://twitter.com/firefliesai). Follow Krish Ramineni on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/krishramineni/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript:  AD: We're excited to announce a new workshop series for helping you get that startup idea you have out of your head and into the world. It's called Vision to Value. Over a series of 90-minute working sessions, you'll work with a thoughtbot product strategist and a handful of other founders to start testing your idea in the market and make a plan for building an MVP. Join for all seven of the weekly sessions, or pick and choose the ones that address your biggest challenge right now. Learn more and sign up at tbot.io/visionvalue. VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido, and with me today is Krish Ramineni, Founder and CEO of Fireflies. Krish, great to be here with you. KRISH: It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. VICTORIA: Wonderful. Before we dive into what Fireflies is all about and start talking about AI, just in your personal world, what are you learning right now? KRISH: Well, I'm traveling this summer, and I've always wanted to speak multiple languages, both for functional reasons and to be able to actually enjoy my travel experiences. So, I'm trying to learn Spanish. I took three years in high school, but I forgot everything, and I'm trying to pick that up. I'm also trying to learn Hindi. We have teammates that are in both Latin America as well as India. And so, both of these would be really valuable [chuckles] to learn. I probably need to get a tutor, something that I'm working on right now. VICTORIA: Yeah. How are you learning? Are you using an app? You said you might get a tutor. KRISH: Yeah. I started looking at Duolingo. I started doing flashcards. There are online instructors. So, I'm just trying to learn the quickest way possible so that I can get just the basic, common phrases down that I could understand so that I can ask questions and understand what people are saying when they're giving me directions on the streets. So, that's the plan. I don't expect to be a fluent speaker. You know, I always wondered, too, like, since we work in this AI space, if we could build a tool that, in real-time, could translate what I'm saying into the local language and the local language into English using my voice. That would be pretty cool. So, I think our whole mission is around like, eliminating communication barriers. But as I've been trying to learn new languages, this is something I realized is...it's a big world out there, and a lot of people in the U.S. only know one language, whereas people in other countries know multiple languages. And yeah, something that I didn't really appreciate growing up or being in high school. But now I'm realizing, like, the immense benefits of being able to speak multiple languages. So, I'm trying [laughs]. VICTORIA: Right. And I think the benefits even to your brain health and your way of thinking is really exciting. I also learned Spanish from a really young age and grew up with it. And recently, you know, I moved to San Diego, so I have a lot more exposure to people who are just speaking Spanish all the time and getting to overhear little bits of conversation, or at a restaurant, even though right now I usually end up ordering incorrectly [laughs] and getting a little bit of surprise. But it's, like, really sweet to be able to connect with people in the community at that level. And last year, I went to Japan for a conference for Ruby, and I learned just a little bit of Japanese. And it just made me so happy, for some reason, to be able to say even a couple of words and a couple of phrases and to have other people, like, say that I was doing a good job [laughs]. You know, like, it's just really nice, especially if you're traveling a lot, and you want to actually connect to people to be able to share that language. Yeah, it's interesting about AI translating there. I will say the translators that we had in Japan they may be caught about 60%. Like, you know, and then with context, it was quite difficult. So, yeah, I'd be curious how AI could address that and even get more personal and being able to use a voice and added more information into that, so you get that full translation. KRISH: Yeah. Local languages and, like, the common phrases. So, for example, the Spanish that's spoken in Spain is going to have different phrases than the ones spoken in Mexico or in other places, right? So, that's also really interesting to think about how local dialects, accents all play into it. Growing up, I used to love watching Bollywood Indian movies, and I would need subtitles. And I slowly started to get to a place where I can still understand what's going on without subtitles. It's really interesting that some of those jokes and some of the things that are said don't really translate exactly into English, right? Like, someone that's a native English speaker wouldn't quite get it. There's a lot more to language than just the words that are used. It's like the culture, the phrases, the people. And so, that's the beauty. That's the beauty of this world. There's so much diversity. VICTORIA: So, I'm curious. As a founder of an AI app that takes recordings of people's meetings and turns it into summarized language, are the models based primarily on English, obviously, right away? And how are you thinking about incorporating other languages into your model? KRISH: When we started, it was primarily English. Fireflies would take notes in English. It would transcribe English meetings. And then, this past year, we started support for 60 different languages, including Spanish, French, German, Hindi, and so many more. And on top of the transcription, we now can also do AI note-taking in some of these other languages. So, if you have a meeting in Portuguese, the summaries and notes will be in Portuguese. We have a big global presence today with Fireflies. It's used in over a hundred countries and lots of different languages. And I would say the foreign language segment of our market is growing incredibly quickly. And we also hear requests from people where they have people that speak different languages because they have global teams in meetings. And it would be super helpful to be able to translate and transcribe and so that when they look back, they can get help and understand or clarify certain things. Yeah. I think language when we started, and most of these LLMs (large language models) were primarily built around English, right? Especially transcription and speech. But there are companies coming out that are now building these models that give better representation to other languages. And we will have AI that will be able to understand and speak many different languages. And just the rate at which this technology is changing, I'm super impressed. I read somewhere that they were building a model back in the day before the whole ChatGPT, where they were using reinforcement learning and transfer learning, where they were able to teach it one language. And it was able to quickly pick up another language, even though it wasn't taught to them. So, AI works in very magical ways [laughs]. VICTORIA: That's really cool. I wish that I worked that way with Portuguese because I was like, oh, I know Spanish okay sometimes. And then, I was like, but Portuguese when I read it, the words make sense, but then hearing it, the pronunciation being totally different, it's like [laughs] a long way to go. But that's really interesting. And you've already started to talk a little bit about the changes in the industry and what you're seeing as the new capabilities for AI. Can you tell me more about that? What other changes do you see in the industry in the last, like, year or even, like, a couple of months? KRISH: At least in the last two years, people's perception of how hard it is to deploy AI has changed. Before, you needed to have a PhD. You needed to write a lot of code, and the AI was not practical. Now, AI is just a few lines of code. You don't even have to be technical to deploy AI. And you can ask it to do a lot more than crunching numbers, and that's what's so powerful. And we are getting these generalized models where, in the past, if you had, like, an AI model, it could do one thing like classification or sentiment analysis. Right now, I have AI that can give me French poetry. It can generate images. It can summarize things. It can help me have a conversation with it and learn how to improve my speaking skills. AI is trained on the web, right? And whatever is on the web, it's a reflection of that. So, that also comes with the good and the bad. The good being that it knows what most humans feel and think and can relate to. And the bad, though, is there's a lot of nonsense on the web, so a lot of the bias, a lot of the information that it's getting. AI today can, with confidence say the wrong answer and believe that that is the right answer. So, that is one of the risks. Some people call this hallucination, where the AI goes haywire and wonky. But I'm hoping that with time, that does get solved; we have better guardrails and parameters. Some people will say that hallucination is a feature and not a bug because it's letting the AI be more expressive. But everyone's understanding of truth should not be, I think, different. Like, I think there is one set of truth sometimes, and you don't want the AI to misinterpret that. So, yeah, I think it's an exciting time. And more people like our company are embracing and adopting AI into their core products. And it's causing incredible productivity gains. But it's nowhere perfect. People talk about this AGI, (artificial general intelligence). I think we're a little bit away from that, but we're moving fast. Like, this stuff is happening at an exponential rate. In technology, there was this Moore's law, right? With the number of transistors and how amazing and exponentially better the chips got. We saw that with storage, right? The cost of cloud storage when it first came out was so expensive. Now it's super cheap. If you remember, back in the day, you got, like, a USB card where it could probably store, like, 10 megabytes. Now it can do, like, 10 gigabytes to, like, one terabyte. And the cost is, like, super affordable. If you think about TVs that came out in the past, right? Like, getting a 60-inch TV was super expensive. Like, a 40-inch TV was super expensive. Now everything is, like, LCD. You get, like, 60, 70 inches. And the price is the same as what a 40-inch TV was back then. So, AI is all of that and some more. It's moving at a rapid pace. Like, technology, as an industry, like, it's moving so quickly, and AI is moving more quickly than what most people can keep up with. So, that has pros and cons. We can dive into that more. But, yeah, things are changing on a weekly basis, not on a yearly basis right now. VICTORIA: Right. And there's a few directions we can go in from there, I think, that are really interesting, right? There's, like, the future of work with AI because I can relate to a feeling of fear and anxiety about what is this new technology? Am I going to lose my job? And when I talk about it with people I'm mentoring, I try to position it more as this is going to change the way we work. You're still going to need people to do stuff. But if you're rejecting AI because you think it's just a fad or it's just silly, like, I think it is fundamentally changing the way people are going to do their jobs if you pursue that. And I think if you're capable with using AI as a tool, you're going to be more powerful than you've ever been in your job in most cases. KRISH: Rejecting AI is like someone rejecting email for faxing and sending paper mail by hand. You just cannot compete, right? Imagine if you were a business that said, "I don't believe in AI. I'm going to do everything old school." You'd be like, today, okay, cool. You should do that. And imagine if you're a business today that says, "I don't use email. I will physically mail everything to you handwritten." So, that's what it's going to be like in a few months to a year. Like, this stuff is happening quick. And I always like to say that AI will it create more jobs? Yes. Will AI replace jobs? Yes. But the probability of someone using AI who will replace you is far greater. So, AI isn't going to replace you as much as someone using AI is going to replace you. It's a skill set that we have to all learn, just like how we had to learn to use a computer, to use the internet, to use the smartphone. This is the same thing here. Like, we're going to all have to learn to use it and learn to interact and gel with AI in the workplace. VICTORIA: Absolutely. And how does that relate to what you learned in your journey with Fireflies and talking to people about AI? How have those conversations gone forward? KRISH: Fireflies at the core is this AI meeting assistant that joins your meetings. It takes notes. It helps you remember what was discussed before a meeting, during a meeting, and after a meeting. It helps me recall any information that I talked about. If we met six months ago and I'm meeting you again, it has the notes for me. It lets me search back through it. It lets me ask it questions about what you talked about. What were the next steps? What were the action items? So, it's giving me structure to my life because a lot of my life is having meetings with lots of people and having many conversations, and then recalling those conversations and staying on top of that. It gives me structure in terms of what I do day in and day out. I always believe that work originates from conversations. Meetings are some of the most valuable conversations that we tend to have. It's also very expensive for an organization to have meetings. Because when you get four people in a room who are all making six figures and spending an hour having meetings, that information, whatever is discussed, can have a huge cost to the business. But it can also have a huge potential to move the business in the right direction. So, organizing all of that knowledge that originates from meetings was the initial vision of Firefly. Before all of this AI and ChatGPT hype, that was what we'd set out to do. The LLMs and AI help us do that job better: summarize the meetings better, generate better action items, create meeting outlines, allow you to search back. Instead of searching by keywords, you can now ask specific questions and talk to AI. So, this is what AI enables people to do, especially with Fireflies, is you can now interact with Fireflies like you would with a teammate, and that has changed the way people feel and use our product. And people don't come out and say, "Hey, you're replacing secretaries. You're replacing the intern that I've hired to take notes for me. Like, you are replacing the job that the new hire has to do because it's a rite of passage." 95% of people will not make that argument because it's actually silly because your assistant, your interns, your new hires have better things to do. And these are the mundane, monotonous stuff that you should delegate to AI. Obviously, you can have humans review all of that, have their own, you know, take on it, generate reports. But it's actually leveling them up to be more productive and be more valuable to your organization. So, I think there's a lot of pieces of AI that will do the same. You know, other technologies like, for example, AI that generates images or graphic designs that's not going to replace the graphic designer. It's going to allow the graphic designer to be able to create many iterations, be more creative. Like, if they don't have the technical skills to use certain pieces of software, it can help them ease that barrier to entry and give them more assets to work with. So, I think of AI in the workplace as how can we augment human productivity by giving each and every person a superpower? VICTORIA: And you started this eight years ago now. So, you were really, like, ahead of the curve in terms of all these AI companies coming out. I'm wondering, what challenges did you have early on, and how did you overcome them? KRISH: When we started, this was not obvious, like, that we should be doing this. It sounded obvious to us. We felt like every person in the workplace deserved an AI assistant that takes notes, not just the C-suite who, has a secretary or a business admin. And it felt like it's so obvious. It should exist. We should build it. And we need to create the experience like an assistant that follows you around. But when we started, there were so many uncertainties. Can this technology work? Can this technology scale? Is the transcription going to be accurate? Can you actually even summarize things? And does that stuff make sense? It's a new behavior. Are people willing to entertain AI assistants and meeting assistants? So, every step of the way, there's a technology risk, a go-to-market risk. You are doing a sales risk. Like there are so many like pieces to the puzzle that you have to figure out. And you have to peel each layer of the onion and get to the core. So, I think it's been quite a journey. We've been lucky in a few ways, right? Because I do believe that luck is sometimes about being at the right place at the right time. But those that always keep showing up are going to be able to get lucky from time to time, right? If you take a thousand shots, at least one of them will make it. That was my philosophy. We tried. We built seven or eight different products that all somehow worked or utterly flopped. And eventually, we got closer and closer and closer to the truth of what customers needed. And that led us to build the version of Fireflies that exists today. So, it's definitely not easy, but there were three core phases to Fireflies or three core movements that allowed Fireflies to exist. One is speech recognition and transcription fundamentally got better. It got more accurate and more affordable. Before, it was ridiculously expensive. It would take a dollar per minute of transcription, and you needed humans to do it. But these AI engines, speech engines, got better. The second thing is when we launched Fireflies, the pandemic happened a few weeks later. Everyone went remote. Video conferencing became more mainstream, and people were actually having Zoom fatigue and way too many meetings. And they needed a way to organize all those meetings they're having, jumping from one meeting to the next. And Fireflies got pulled forward, and a lot of people wanted to have it in meetings and help them around. And that helped us grow exponentially, virally. To this day, Fireflies has taken notes for over 16 million people across 300,000 organizations. And since the launch in January 2020 to where we are, the first two to three years were trial and error, right? From 2016 to 2020. We built our product in 2018, 2019, launched in 2020. The pandemic accelerated the adoption. And then, you have this new LLM wave that comes out at the end of 2021, which allowed us to make the product fundamentally more valuable. And everything got better from the notes, to the summaries, to the search. Everything got better. And we crossed the chasm from where people thought, "Huh, this is a cool idea, but I don't think it's going to work," to "Holy crap, this is one of the best use cases for generative AI and LLMs." And yeah, like, it was luck in terms of being there when this movement was happening. I think a lot of AI companies can say that. But it also took a little bit of fortitude to be able to be doing this several years before the stuff came out, right? Once a gold rush occurs, everyone's going to want to go in and then build something. But if you were already there, and you were searching and searching, and you were very close to something, and then you discover the gold rush, you're going to have a head start, and that's what happened with us. VICTORIA: Yeah, you said 7 to 8 product iterations, and I was like, uh, you really had to go through an emotional roller coaster, I'm sure early days. But you were lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time and have a good picture of what the problem space was. It's really incredible to hear that. MID-ROLL AD: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build, and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Liftoff brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow today. Get in touch at thoughtbot.com/liftoff. VICTORIA: Why don't I move forward a little bit into where you are now, where you have GDPR and SOC 2 compliance, and you're, you know, really doing well. Like, what were the challenges in getting that product to enterprise level? KRISH: We let the customers pull us in the direction that needed for us to go. A lot of times, we try to see, okay, what is every friction point along the way? What would it take for larger organizations to adopt it? There is incredible product value. People have been saying it. But I need these sorts of features and capabilities in order to deploy it inside my organization. And we are handling meetings, which is sensitive. And so, we have to be able to give them more access controls, give them more admin features. You know, we have a policy at Fireflies where we say, "We do not train on your data by default." So, most AI companies they're using their customer data to train models. We do not do that. So, we made that explicitly clear. CIOs love hearing that because when they look at us and other potential competitors, those competitors are bragging outside, saying, "Hey, we built this amazing model training on all of this data." And we say, "We don't do that." So, unless you want us to build something custom for you, we will not train on your data by default. The other thing we said is, "Look, you own your data. If you want to delete it anytime, you can. You can request to have the data deleted. If you were a participant on a meeting and you don't feel comfortable with the data, you can request the host to delete it, or you can come to us, and we'll delete that data for you." Like, you have rights to that. And we put everything in a very customer-centric worldview, and that usually aligns with the big enterprises. That aligns well with a lot of the folks that want to use your service. Because when you're using a new technology, the first question people are going to have is, "Does it work?" The second question they're going to have is, "Is it safe?" And with AI, a lot of people think about the safety of using the tech. And when you're building for a B2B enterprise, we had to make sure we put in the hard work to tailor our product to the needs of those customers. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. And maybe you could say more about why would a company want to train a model on their own data and create an LLM like that? KRISH: Are you talking about customers wanting us to train something for them? VICTORIA: Yes. I've heard this idea from a few different people, actually, where they want to be able to build an LLM and build a model based on a company's own knowledge and their own information. So, maybe you could say more about that. KRISH: I think it's really around fine-tuning and personalizing the AI. Now you can train on models. You can do fine-tuning. You can do other parameters. But it's really giving everyone their own personal experience with AI. We can do this today even without training just by understanding your preferences, and we want to continue to build towards that. So, yeah, we believe that every person inside an organization should have their own personal AI note-taker, and no two meeting notes will be the same because each set of notes is unique to you, your meetings, what your team wants. And so, that, to us, is like a vision we try to build towards. AI can bring about insane level of personalization, and that's one of the reasons why people would want to train their own models based on their like, knowledge graph, and information. VICTORIA: How do you think about the cost of building and running these AI tools from an infrastructure cost perspective? How does that translate to your cost for your customers, that kind of thing? KRISH: AI is expensive. The unit economics...I think a lot of people are taking for granted that it is insanely expensive to run these models to use a cloud provider of these AI models. Some people are spinning up their own models. It is insanely expensive. But the good news is the cost is going down at an accelerated pace, and it's just up to whether the pace of the cost decrease will outweigh the amount of spending some of these startups are doing. And that's why some of these companies are raising tons of money as well because they don't really have a monetization strategy. They have no revenue. They're making lofty goals that "This AI is going to do this. It's going to do this. It's going to replace this function in your org." But who's going to pay for it? How are you going to make people pay for it? Is it going to be subscription-based? Is it going to be utility-based? How much upfront cost is going to be there to train these models? And what if you do all that work, and then you deploy an LLM; you're an infrastructure provider, and no one cares? What if you're an application layer, and you're giving all of this stuff away for free and then eventually realize you can't get people to pay for it? So, there are so many open questions for these companies where the technology is changing quickly. The cost is changing quickly, and consumer preferences are also changing quickly. We'll have to see. Only time will tell because there's a hundred companies out there, all raising a hundred million dollars. We know that all of them are not going to make it, a few are. So, it'll be interesting to see what happens once the dust settles. But I think people should take that very seriously because you can't always expect to be bailed out by investors if you don't know how to utilize AI and how to build for cost. And I think a lot of investors tell startups to not worry about that. They say, "Don't worry about the cost. You know, as long as someone's there to pump you money, you just keep building, like, the best product out there." That works for some companies. I just don't believe it should be the only strategy that someone should take. VICTORIA: What if you build it and no one cares? It'd be so heartbreaking [laughs], but it happens, yeah. KRISH: That's 95% of startups that die is because no one cares. VICTORIA: Right. Yeah. And I'm curious, like, what other use cases do you see as being the most relevant for AI? Like, what problems does it really solve very well? I mean, note-taking, obviously, one of them. KRISH: I'm really excited about all of these AI tools that can write code for you. And maybe they can't replace a software engineer, but could you make a developer 10x more productive? And could today AI start off as a copilot for writing code for you to eventually building you full-fledged apps, right? And imagine what that would do in terms of reducing the barrier for so many people to be able to create their own personal apps and tools. Easier said than done. But I think what's really working really well, whether it's with GitHub or some of these other AI tools, is, can it actually write code for you? And I think that's a wonderful use case. It'll still need a lot more fleshing out, but I am bullish on that use case for sure. VICTORIA: Yeah. I'm hopeful that companies will figure out how to use AI to level up engineers because right now, we have the problem of the flattening of the middle where you have really senior people who are very in high demand. And then, you have a lot of people with very little experience who really want a career in technology. So, I see that as an opportunity, but also a risk that some people will create things with AI code and sell it. And it'll just be a hot mess [laughs]. But, you know, that's kind of the risk it is even if you're paying real developers at the same time, so... KRISH: Yeah. I think AI will take a C player and make them a B player, maybe a B player into a B plus player. And then, it can take an A player and make them, like, A plus. So, I think it just levels the playing field a little bit, eventually to a point where everyone in the org is going to get a little bit more productive. And I also think that small teams are going to be able to do incredible things. You, as a small team will be able to compete at a larger scale with some of the bigger companies. You know, Sam Altman said maybe there's a chance that a 10-person company is going to build a billion-dollar market cap organization that goes public. So, all of those are possibilities, too. I love the idea of solopreneurs and people that run their own, like, small businesses, you know, three to four people, super lean. Obviously, I'm in a venture-backed world, so I can't necessarily run that, but I am very excited by that potential. And I like those types of people that are entrepreneurial and don't need a lot of CapEx in order to get started. AI will allow a lot more solopreneurs to thrive. If social media created a market for people to have, like, a full-time job as influencers, I think AI can create a market for people to have full-time jobs as creators of products, goods, and services that can be managed with just, like, a few people. VICTORIA: That is really interesting. I'm curious if you want to...let's say you're meeting a founder or an entrepreneur, and they're AI-curious, but they don't really know where to get started or how to step their toe into the water. What advice would you give them? KRISH: I think the best place to start is by building and building something for yourself that you yourself would use. Try all these different AI products that are out there. Look at what's trending in the news in terms of which...every week, some new model is being deployed, some new changes are being rolled out. Google is rolling something out. Facebook is rolling out something. OpenAI is rolling out something. So, try to keep pace. It's going to be tough. And then, go play around and tinker with these tools. Like, you should be a tinkerer first. You should like to build things. You don't have to be an engineer to get started, but you need to be able to go and get your hands dirty, roll up your sleeves, and play around with these tools. The belief and conviction comes with you yourself gaining experience through understanding these tools. You know, you can't tell someone, you know, how to make a music video or make a movie without ever having used a camera before, right? So, it's the same way. You've got to learn how to use the tools first. VICTORIA: And are there any yellow or red flags you would tell people to watch out for if they're thinking about AI or thinking about using a new AI product? KRISH: I think for those founders that want to build large venture-scale businesses, and they're trying to bite off way more than they can chew, you should consider focusing. These are the sort of folks that maybe are not making a sequence of bets. They're trying to throw a hundred darts and see what sticks. And I usually think that's a strategy that will fail. You need to understand why you're building, what you're building, who you're building for. Don't just build it because the technology is cool. You know, not to pick on any products out there, but there's a lot of hardware devices coming out recently that have AI backed into them, right? And you wonder, why the heck is this a hardware device? Couldn't this be just an app on my phone? Like, why do I need to go spend $200, or $600, or $1000 buying this device that has a lot of limitations? The reason you built it because you thought the technology was cool. But by the time it got to production, it has a lot of faults. And you're trying to get people to change their behavior and take money and pay for this? That's tough. And I think VCs are falling for that as well, like, in funding tons of this money into these sorts of companies. Some can argue that it will get better with time and iterations. But I personally stay away from hardware. I don't want to touch anything related to hardware right now because we don't even know what the new form factor is going to be. But the hardware people should ask themselves, "Should this be a standalone device, or could it just be something on my iPhone as an app?" That is something that's really, really interesting. The space that I'm most excited about outside of AI for the workplace is robotics. And I've been seeing a lot of really cool products where they're trying to build these AI humanoid-like robots that can do a series of tasks. They're not like the machines in, like, an industry or a factory. But they can make you coffee. They can clean the dishes. They can cook you some food. I think the market for that is massive. Like, if that stuff works, people are going to be able to pay a lot of money for it. Like, the amount you'd pay for a car, you would pay for a utility-based robot inside your house and, like, with nice financing options and stuff. So, whoever cracks that is going to be really, really successful. There's people companies that have raised a lot of money solving that. While I'm generally not bullish about hardware little devices, I am very bullish about, like, these general-purpose robots that I think the potential is immense. Like imagine every household having one or two of those; what that means for domestic productivity, like, someone's folding the laundry, someone is cleaning up the house, taking out the trash. These are jobs to be done, yeah. VICTORIA: Well, then what would my husband do [laughter]? I'm just kidding. I don't want to replace him. No, I think it's interesting especially just, like, thinking about elder care, and having someone in the home, and watching, and cleaning up, and all of those tasks and being able to live independently. I could see that having a huge potential. So, also, obviously, I think robots are cool. It's the title of the podcast. So, I'm very pro-robot [laughs] in most cases, not all cases. Yeah. Well, that's super interesting. Let's see. Do you have anything else that you would like to promote? KRISH: You know, besides embracing AI and using, you know, these tools and services, I would really be excited to hear about people's ideas on, like, how they're using AI in the workplace. Everyone has so many creative ways to go about it. So, each week, we discover new ways people are using Fireflies, right? Some people use it for taking notes. Some people use it to be able to take customer quotes from calls. So, they can literally ask our AI, "Hey, go through these, like, past two customer calls and pull out all of the nice things they said about us, and then turn that into a soundbite that I can share with my marketing team so we can run a marketing campaign on that" So, there's just so many interesting use cases. I do want to say that voice is going to be a great form factor for AI. We work in the voice space. Like, I love talking to my AI during the meeting. So, I think that's going to be something that I would say is if you are an end user in the workplace, think about how you would use voice to get work done and turn your words into AI. And we're trying to solve that at Fireflies. And if you are interested in that space, we would love to talk to you. And if you have some interesting use cases that you want to see for Fireflies, please send them our way. VICTORIA: I love that. And it's interesting when you bring up voice. One thing I was surprised about with my parents, actually, obviously, a generation older, I got them an Alexa Dot that I got from a conference. I didn't think they would ever use it, but they actually use it all the time. They're, like, asking for recipes, setting timers, and doing things like that. And, yeah, if you have, like, an AI voice, like, "Send an email to this person" or, like, "Open this task and do it." Maybe I would actually get some more tasks done [laughs]. I could just do it over voice. Sometimes like, the keyboard and the screen is part of the delay. That's really interesting. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. Do you have any questions for me before we sign off? KRISH: I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what are the biggest risks with AI you foresee for people, and what makes you more skeptical about AI? VICTORIA: Yeah, you touched on a little bit earlier when you said about the cost of AI and the cost-benefit analysis; I don't think is always there for every single use case, right? There are some use cases where it is so clear there is a benefit for that. Note-taking is one of them. There's a million professions, I think, that would benefit from having AI note-taking apps. I think the risks which we've already seen that impact people, you mentioned the biases, and things like people getting denied health care, getting longer prison term sentences. You know, the way that they might blindly incorporate these algorithms into decisions that really reinforce biases because of this historical data that it's based on. I think whenever someone asks me about the risks of AI and, like, people losing jobs, or, you know, rogue AI taking over the world, I always bring it back to that some AI is already hurting people, and it should be stopped, and people should be educated on it. Like, the big scary AI conversation is almost a distraction to what's really going on, and we need to all be smarter about it. At the same time, I love using AI. I think it really can, like you said, get your productivity up 100%. In some cases, like, you can just do so much more so much faster. And I see that potential. And I think that there's always that balance, right? Like, you have to be able to be aware and embrace both if you're going to stay current. But there are some people who still send faxes and still do everything by mail. But, you know, it's like technology never really dies. There's just more of it in different ways, right? KRISH: Absolutely [laughs]. That's awesome. Well, thank you. This was great. VICTORIA: Wonderful. Yeah, I really enjoyed our conversation. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected]. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.

Host Victoria Guido welcomes Wendell Adams, CEO of PrimeLab.io, as he talks about his lifelong passion for technology and entrepreneurship. Wendell shares his experiences, from hacking electronics as a child to studying various fields in college and eventually starting his own business. He emphasizes the importance of understanding market needs and leveraging language to make technology accessible. Wendell's drive to improve encryption and data security led to the formation of PrimeLab; a company focused on making encryption functional and accessible without compromising performance. Wendell discusses PrimeLab's strategic direction and market fit. He outlines the challenges and opportunities in the entertainment industry, emphasizing the need for innovative solutions that respect user control and privacy. Wendell also shares insights into how PrimeLab's technology can democratize data access and enhance business processes. The episode concludes with a reflection on the future of AI and encryption technologies and Wendell's advice for aspiring entrepreneurs to think critically and creatively about their ventures. PrimeLab.io (https://primelab.io/) Follow PrimeLab.io on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/primelab-io/), or X (https://x.com/PrimeLab4). Follow Wendell Adams on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/wendell-a-83317895/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript:  AD: We're excited to announce a new workshop series for helping you get that startup idea you have out of your head and into the world. It's called Vision to Value. Over a series of 90-minute working sessions, you'll work with a thoughtbot product strategist and a handful of other founders to start testing your idea in the market and make a plan for building an MVP. Join for all seven of the weekly sessions, or pick and choose the ones that address your biggest challenge right now. Learn more and sign up at tbot.io/visionvalue.  VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Wendell Adams, CEO at PrimeLab io. Wendell, thank you for joining us. WENDELL: Thanks for having me. So, question, actually, where'd you guys come up with the name? VICTORIA: You know, I have asked this before, and I think I remember the answer. I might have to go back to the 500th episode to get it, but I think it was just robots was already kind of a theme at thoughtbot. I mean, thoughtbot, obviously, has robot in the name. Joe might have the best answer. And we have our special co-host, Joe Ferris. Who better to answer? JOE: [chuckles] Yes, I'm not sure who better to answer, probably Chad. I don't remember the answer either, but happy to be here to speculate with the two of you. It comes from the blog. We named the blog Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots and then used it for our podcast. But I don't remember where the blog name came from. WENDELL: It kind of reminds me of the Robot Wars thing, like, where they would have competitors driving around the robots and then smashing into each other, trying to flip them over and disable them. JOE: That was excellent. I also watched that. WENDELL: [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah, it's a pretty great name. I really enjoy being a host. And, you know, I go out to local San Diego events and meet people and introduce myself as a co-host of Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots. It's usually pretty funny [laughter], which is where I met you, Wendell; we met at a San Diego CTO Lunches, which was super fun. WENDELL: Yeah, I always enjoy any type of tech conversation or anything else. I thought that was a lot of fun to sit down and just talk with people and talk about what they're working on. VICTORIA: I love that, yeah. And before we dive into the tech and get to hear more about PrimeLab, I just want to start a little more socially question. What did you do last weekend, Wendell? WENDELL: It was my father-in-law's birthday party at Legoland. We took my daughters my mother-in-law, and we all went to Legoland. It was a lot of fun. Although, honestly, I prefer the San Diego Zoo over Legoland, so... VICTORIA: Can you please describe what Legoland is to people who may not know? WENDELL: Okay. Legoland is based in Carlsbad, and it's really ideal for, like, four to nine-year-olds. And they have, like, miniatures of all the different cities. Actually, the SF miniature that they have is crazy detailed with Chinatown and everything else. They did an amazing job there. They actually...I think they just redid the San Diego part of it. But the miniatures are really cool, seeing all this stuff. They have different rides performers, but it's definitely, like, one of those things that it's more for kids to go and kind of experience. If you're an adult, you're going to love a lot of the processes that go into place, like how they built things, but mostly, yeah, it's very much kid rides and stuff like that. VICTORIA: I imagined it to be, like, life-size Lego buildings, but maybe I'm...that's very interesting all those other things you could do there. WENDELL: Well, like, they have the One World Trade Center, and I think it's, like, 25 feet tall. It is, like, the replica of it. It's kind of interesting, too, because not all the Legos that they build, they're huge, are solid Legos. So, it's like, they'll do where it's like, on the outside, they'll do a base, and then they'll build it. There's a replica of a Lamborghini. That one's life-size. But it's heavy. It's, like, 2,000 pounds, something like that. VICTORIA: Is that as much as a regular Lamborghini weighs, too, 2,000 pounds? It can't be that far up. WENDELL: I don't know. No, I don't think it...no, it couldn't be. VICTORIA: I have no idea how much cars [laughs] weigh. What about you, Joe? Did you do anything fun this weekend? JOE: Not a lot. It was supposed to be my son's first soccer game ever, but it rained here in Boston, so they postponed it. Sunday he went to my parents' house for a grandma day, and so I did nothing. I ate cookies. WENDELL: [laughs] VICTORIA: Wait, what kind of cookies were they, though? JOE: They were chocolate chip cookies. VICTORIA: That's so good. JOE: They were good. They were brown butter chocolate chip cookies, I should say. VICTORIA: Were they homemade, or did you get them somewhere? JOE: They were. We made them in this home. VICTORIA: Oh, that's the best. Yeah, love that. I got some fancy cookies that someone else made, and they were also [laughs] very good. And then, yeah, I've just been having cookies pretty much every day. So, that's been my time. WENDELL: My mother-in-law recently made me peanut butter cookies, and those are my favorite kind of homemade cookies. VICTORIA: Okay. Noted. You'll get a post-podcast gift of peanut butter cookies [laughter]. I love that. It's so great to hear a little bit more about each of you as, like, in a personal way before we dive into AI. And tell me a little bit more about your background and what led you to PrimeLab. WENDELL: I've always kind of, like, been a hacker, so to speak, just from a technical standpoint. My one grandfather was an engineer. He worked for GM designing, like, assembly arms and stuff like that. And then my other grandfather was a master electrician. So, I've always been the person that, like, just worked on things, got stuff together. You know, there's a lot of stories. Like, there's the story about when I broke my grandmother's workbench, rocking bench out front, and it was all aluminum. I remember telling my grandfather, and he's like, "Oh, what are you going to do?" And I was like, "Buy a new one?" He's like, "You got money?" I said, "No." And he said, "Well, you better figure how to make it then." So, ironically, it's half aluminum, half wood. We took wood, sanded it down, and stuff. So, it's just like I've always been an entrepreneur. I've always been interested in this kind of stuff. I used to hack VCRs, and PlayStations, and all kinds of stuff. I always liked parts and components and rewiring things. And as I got older, I also really liked math and all those things. And I wanted to understand more about how the world works, so to speak, like why it works the way it does, not just from a technology standpoint. But why do people think the way that they do? Why do things behave the certain way they do? So, initially, I started going to college. I thought I might be a math professor, and then decided to get degrees in business, economics, finance, marketing, consumer product goods, and comparative religions. So, while I was in college, I started working on, like, hacking, different video games, writing JavaScript, writing Java, all kinds of stuff. And then, eventually, even writing mobile applications early on, and then just analyzing because I always liked to build phones, too. I would take apart phones. And I really was curious about, like, how to make things faster, more efficient, and better. So, now to bring it down, like, how to make things accessible, where it benefits some of the smallest people and make it where it's a greater opportunity for someone to come out ahead of something. Like, one thing that I learned from my marketing degree is language matters. So, it's like, all the marketing it's not anything special. It's just they intentionally create language barriers that cause people not to feel as accessible with it. And then, like, you hire a consultant or something to just basically teach you about those language barriers. And I think every industry has, like, SAT, or LTM, or something like these abbreviations that mean a lot of different things. And it causes bottlenecks if you don't speak the language. So, understanding the language but also learning about how was very helpful from a standpoint on the marketing side. And I always try to figure out how do I make this accessible to people who don't understand that language? VICTORIA: And what was the turning point where you decided to start PrimeLab, and what made you realize there was a company there? WENDELL: It was a project I've been working on since at least 2011, honestly. And just as a heads up, PrimeLab as a whole works with encrypted data for AI models and to speed that up and everything else. So, early on, I was very obsessed with how advertising works through, like, stealing user data, which stealing is different, here or there, the sense of privacy, the sense of, like, how things could run, and the sense of messaging. And initially, a lot of it was using encryption as an overlay in, like, the pixel application space, which is always a way to hack or get into it. And it slows everything down. So, I had always been working on trying to figure out how do you speed up and embed security so it's actually functional? And it took a while to figure out, like, give encryption functionality, like, make the encryption something that you could actually execute on. And, actually, one of the things that really helped is the blockchain space there's a lot of, like, hash trees and everything else, like, where people are innovating in that. That's really helped innovate encryption as a whole from understanding, like, Merkle trees, hash graphs, and everything else to make it more functional and faster. Because people are trying to speed up distributed networks and stuff, but the actual technology that they built, like Hedera is...What Hedera has done with Hashgraphs and everything else—really amazing. I'm glad that they open-source stuff like that. But it's also really interesting just to see how things push forward. So, like, when I first started, like, RAM was, like, 256 in a phone. So now, you know, you can get multiple gigabytes, which makes it a lot more capable to do encryption, decryption, and work more in the functional space of things. The bigger problem that you have on the data part is how an application communicates because there's so many levels of abstraction. Like, you have the Swift language that communicates into something else that then communicates into something else. Like, right now, we're talking on a system that's recording us over the internet through a browser, all those different things. And it's an approximation of what the data is and what we sound like. It's not an absolute. So, I was really interested in when you have absolutes, and you can verify those absolutes, what can you do with that? A few years ago, I felt like we got to a point where we could actually execute those things and actually deliver on that. So, therefore, I decided to start PrimeLab with my co-founder, who I really liked and enjoyed. And we've had a lot of really great advisors, where people have helped us continuously. Over, you know, the decade-plus of working on this, I've gotten a lot of input from some of the smartest people I know, from people who have designed full server racks for AWS to literally a good friend of mine that built cloud storage. His name's on the patent for it. So, that kind of stuff has really helped me understand and build this where it can communicate the lowest possible level. VICTORIA: Yeah, and to just recap and reflect that back a little bit, it sounds like you were always interested in how to make encryption faster and lighter weight, and so you could build it in and build in security without impacting the performance of the applications. And then meeting your co-founder and the advancement of technology, this time a couple of years ago, led you to think, okay, let's really go forward with this. WENDELL: Kind of rephrasing, I was always interested in control. So, like, one of the things that really interested me...so, I started a video game store buying and selling, like, video games and trading cards and stuff when I was roughly ten and a half or so, and then sold it roughly when I was 17, which is how I paid for quite a bit of college and likewise. But the things that really interested me about that is it went out of business three to four months afterwards because the person who basically bought the rest of it bought too much of Madden. And Madden, at this time, the margins were, like, a buck, as you go all the way through, and the price drops immensely. So, I wanted to really understand why that happened. What you kind of get to is, like, they didn't have control over it, just, like, the bulk orders methodology, where they would buy the whole entire supply. And what I've seen over the years, be it Apple, Google, or anything else, is, like, that was...in that example, that's a game publisher, EA, flexing control, right? But more and more companies are flexing control on a platform like now with Facebook or advertising. If you think about what Google used to do, Google used to provide a lot more insights when you had your own website. You used to know your own keywords. You used to know a lot of things about your users who come through. More and more, Facebook and Google try to stop that. And they're really the ones determining your own user personas for you. So, you become dependent upon them. So, I wanted to say, okay, from a business standpoint, how do you implement control and privacy where it's permissioned? And encryption was one of the answers that I came to. But then it was, how do you make encryption functional then to actually execute on control? Because unless the system is secure, faster, cheaper, better, it's never going to get adopted. VICTORIA: That makes sense. Thank you for sharing that. And you mentioned your founder. I'm curious, how does your founder kind of complete what you needed to be able to get the business up and running and off the ground? WENDELL: He has a robotics degree, so he had launched several products that had failed. And he wanted to learn marketing after they had failed. So, we have a similar like mindset about, like, control and functionality for how something may or may not work, and that allowed us to communicate well. So, like, I have a lot of friends and stuff. But the thing that allows me and my co-founder to work really well is that we come from things in different angles, but we have the same language that we speak. So, like, that's what I was talking about before, like, LTMs or otherwise, like, language really matters from how you can move something forward when you're talking in different industries. And just with him, there's a lot of stuff that you don't have to say. You can skip a lot of filler and then go straight to what something might be or a solution or something. Or if we have to jump to a tech abbreviation, to a market abbreviation, to a financial abbreviation, he's one that can follow along with me really quickly and then teach me a lot of things about operational execution because he's great at operations. I am not great at operations. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. And I think you're making a good point about, like, a shared language. And it reminds me of any product that you're building; if you want to sell it to a company and you want them to adopt it, you have to consider their language, their belief system, how to influence change within the organization. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about that with your experience at PrimeLab. WENDELL: I'll give you an example of a market that we decided to go after. So, instead of just working at, like, healthcare markets where you have, like, GDPR...for people who don't know GDPR or HIPAA, HIPAA is for the United States. GDPR is the EU privacy requirements, right? For the right to be forgotten and everything else. So, these are vernaculars that you need to know. But the requirements of each one is very different, and these are markets that we've learned being in tech and likewise. But we wanted to change it up. So, I wanted to go after the entertainment market as a whole, namely because after meeting with some select people, including a stunt man, this is going back a few years ago, I started to realize that the entertainment market was getting kind of screwed over quite a bit from a tech standpoint. Basically, tech goes through this thing where...someone wrote a great article about this. It's called Enshittification. But, basically, where they go they try to take over a whole entire market, where first they're providing great value to your users. And then, gradually, you enshittify your product to provide greater value to your investors. And then, gradually, you suck all of the value out of the room for both. Right now, if you look at Sora, what OpenAI is trying to do in entertainment, [inaudible 16:08], you kind of can see that happening. They're going, "Hey, here's a great value for it." And they're really pushing that stuff off. But the thing about the entertainment market that I think is really interesting is it's basically thousands and thousands of small businesses that are constantly going, it's so chaotic. It's not like tech and startups. There's a lot of overlay of, like, you know, people are looking for that top quartile film that's going to make the money back, and then long-term royalties that they can earn off of it, right? Whereas in tech, they're looking for those huge markups as well. So, I was really fascinated by it, but it was something that, like, we had to learn. Like it was something that I didn't know otherwise. So, it was literally...how we learned it was we took our tech stuff, and we would walk SAG-AFTRA strike lines. We would walk strike lines. We would go to entertainment events, and we would demo what we were trying to do, and we would show them. And then, oftentimes, we got really negative feedback right off the bat. And we're like, "No, no, no, so, you know, this is for you. Like, you could control. Like, this is going to help you." And then, after doing that enough times, talking to the SAG-AFTRA lawyers, and everything else from there, and all of the creatives, the creatives were coming to us and giving us ideas how to explain it because there's, like, three different formats. You have tech, business, creatives in the entertainment industry. And it's like, we could talk to the tech people. We could talk to the business people. But you really need the creatives. And, like, the wording of each one, like, each group of those is vastly different. So, having the creatives be able to explain something in 90 seconds that used to take me a couple of hours to dive into became really valuable. And also, in tech, like, you have this thing where it's feature creep, where you're like, oh, I'll add this, this, and this. Just to hear very coldly and bluntly, like, "If it does X, I'm interested. If it does Y, I'm not interested." That was very interesting or refreshing of, like, "Yes, you're going to solve these problems. But I need sign-off for everything in there." And it's kind of weird in the entertainment part, too. Like, you want to solve a problem without being a competitor to another vendor because you need so many different sign-offs. And if you're a competitor to another vendor, to a certain point, maybe that's going to cause a hiccup with sign-offs because there's 18 different cooks in the kitchen, so to speak, just so many different people that need to say, "Yes," all the way through with it. VICTORIA: Thank you. Yeah, that's really interesting. I'm curious, Joe, if you have an answer for that question as well, like, any experiences about navigating change and putting new products in place at different clients, different industries? JOE: I don't think I've had the same kind of resistance. Like, I haven't been on the front lines the way you described, like, literally in the, you know, going and talking to people on strike. I think I have more indirect experience talking to the people who are doing that. And certainly, like, I think there's generally a resistance to bringing in new technology without eliminating the old way of doing things if that makes sense. Like, people want the old ways of backup. Like they want to be able to go back to paper, which I empathize with. But that's frequently been a challenge for the people I've worked with is that they don't fully embrace the new process, which significantly reduces the value they would get from using it. I don't know if that's something you've encountered with PrimeLab. WENDELL: So, we were building another company of mine many, many, many years ago. I was building a website for this lumber company, and I remember showing up, and the owner was there. But it was his son that had commissioned it, and the owner didn't know about the website. And I was like, "Oh yeah, we'll get the website going." He goes, "Oh, this web thing it's a fad. It's never going to happen. You don't need websites. It's faxes." That's how everything would happen. But secretly, what was happening is they would get an order. They would print it off, and then they would fax it. So [laughs], I always thought that was crazy. VICTORIA: I mean, one of my local bars still just writes the order on a ticket and sends it on a clothesline down to the grill. So [laughs], sometimes old is good. But I think that you know, I want to hear more about where you found or how you found a product-market fit for PrimeLab and where that AI really becomes useful and ethical in the industry you're focusing on WENDELL: How I look at PMF (product-market fit)...and if you hear me just say PMF, that's what that means. So, how I look at PMF is I'm a little different in the fact that when I look at a product, or a technology, I don't just look at, like, so you have foundational tech. Like, okay, this is encryption. This is control, right? Now, where's the market that has the biggest problems with it? So, I like to go out and actually talk to those people. Because, like, when you're implementing tech, or you're implementing the product itself, it's different. So, you're like, you have the underlying infrastructure, but whether that's a button or a simple API that you need to build so it works different to hit that PMF...are you familiar with the term build a better mousetrap? VICTORIA: I don't think so. JOE: I'm familiar, but I'd still love to hear you describe it. WENDELL: So, in business school, and likewise, they will tell you "If you build a better mousetrap, people will come, and they will buy your product." So, like, it's a common thing where they're like, "Build a better mousetrap. People will come. They'll be there." And the thing that you learn with consumer product goods and marketing, though, is they actually built a better mousetrap, and it failed. And the reason why it failed is you had a mousetrap that was roughly a cent versus another mousetrap that was three cents. And I think this is in the '60s or so. The other mousetrap was reusable, so it executed a lot better, and everything else is more humane. But what they didn't understand is that it was wives most of the time that would have to actually handle this. And they didn't want the mouse alive, and they didn't want to reuse the trap. They wanted them to actually be disposed of right away. So, by not understanding the market, even though they built a better mousetrap, they'd missed the point. Like, the main problem to solve wasn't killing the mouse or having it be reusable. The main problem to solve was, like, getting rid of the mouse. So like, if you have a solution for getting rid of the mouse, the next thing is your execution for it. Like, does it hit the actual market, which is the fit aspect? Like, every product is a little bit different where you look at, like, how does this fit in? So, in this case, fit is very important for, like, disposing of the mouse, which is why you also have, like, you know, mouse poisons are popular, even though they're terrible because they die somewhere and, hopefully, you don't see them. And it's like sight unseen, right? Now, I'm glad, like, that's changing and stuff. But it's understanding even if you have a solution to something, you need to understand what your market wants out of your solution, and it's not going to be an abstract. It's going to be an emotional, like, execution-based process. So, you kind of have to go, all right, this is my market. This is kind of my fit. But the actual product I'm building is going to change to make sure it works all the way through with this. I was advising a startup many, many years ago, and they were building this CRM software on Android for South America. And I think they were building it for Android 6 or 7 at the time. But the market that they were targeting, they all ran Android 4.1. So, they spent a little over a million dollars building for the wrong version of Android that wouldn't even work on that version of the system. Like, it was one of those things where they were required to build it for that. But they didn't understand the actual market, and they didn't spend enough time researching it. So, it's like you get the Bay Area groupthink. If they had actually spent the time to analyze that market and go, "Oh, they run, you know, an inexpensive phone. It's 4.1. It's low RAM," now you can design a product. If you want it to be a CRM, you're going to, like, chunk up the system more. Like, you're going to change all that instead of just wasting a million dollars building something that now you basically have to start over again from scratch. VICTORIA: That seems like he got off cheap, too. People make way bigger mistakes that cost way more money [laughs] because they [inaudible 24:13] WENDELL: Well, that wasn't me. That was an investor that -- VICTORIA: Oh no. I mean, yeah, not just them. Yeah. WENDELL: He's like, "What would you do?" And I was like, "You should sell this company or sell your stake ASAP because that's a really bad sign." JOE: I have found that the answer nobody ever wants when you're doing product validation or testing product fit is, "You should not build this product." The idea that the software just shouldn't be written is universally unpopular. WENDELL: Yes [laughs]. That's, you know, that's part of the reason why it took me so long to do PrimeLab is because, like, it took a long enough for the software to actually need to be written, if that makes sense. Mid-Roll Ad: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don’t have all year to do extended research. In just a few weeks, thoughtbot’s Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We’ll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts. Maximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint. VICTORIA: What does success look like now versus six months or even five years from now? WENDELL: I take a different approach to this because I have so many friends that have sold their businesses. They raise and everything else. I look at success as instead of an exit or another large thing, like, literally, we turned down a billion-dollar term sheet offer. I didn't like the terms. I didn't like what it would do from the control standpoint of the technology. What I care about is go-to-market and, like, adoption and actually getting the tech out there in a way that has market penetration but, like, that adds value to every person's life. VICTORIA: Yeah, maybe say more about that. Like how do you see AI and this technology you have with PrimeLab benefiting people and benefiting the industry that you're working within? WENDELL: So, the current AI models are kind of weird. They're basically just filter systems because they communicate in pixel space and then go down to functional space. It's the GPU. GPUs are actually terrible to use for AI. This is why you have dedicated AI chips getting built. Hopefully, the RISC-V chipset does actually do something because that's a chipset that I think it's an open-source chipset, but you can actually especially build models on it. So, I think that we're going to see a lot more in the RISC-V chipset where it's like, this is just for one particular image, or this is just for explosions, or this is just for touching up all these different points in the actual individual, like, microcontroller module data that ends up compiling to move forward with it. But the AI models now it's like you took the internet, and you're trying to ask it a probability question, what I was talking about before, where it's not an absolute. So, it's like, if I want to do an OCR system or anything, I take an image. It's got to say, "This is..." letters; it's going to recognize that. So, there's, like, multiple models and algorithms that need to run on that whole entire process. You even have artificial data, but all of that information is an approximation. It's not an absolute. If you want absolute, you can get a lot of absolute data from the actual hardware devices themselves. You know, take a Sony camera. You could see the lighting. You could see the raw information, everything else there. But because of how expensive it is, people compress it. Like, take YouTube where it's compressed, and now you're training off of it. You're trying to compress it more and then run an algorithm so that you don't have to actually process those large, raw files all the way through. That's just a bad infrastructure for compute. You're trying to reduce, but you're also trying to utilize what you own for rights, same thing, contextual, or anything else there. There's no value in a model. Once a model is out there, it's just weights moving it back and forth. The value is in the data and the applications. So, the actual data itself that's going in. So, if you have just lava scenes, like, having all that data for lava, and I want to put it in a background, now I can do that, but more importantly, it's not about just adding it into the background. The thing that is often missed is contextually the output. So, like, say I want to do a financial report. Rather than having the data of all financial reports out there, what I want as the input is my financial data. And what I want as, like, a fine-tuning output is an example of the reports that were generated. And I don't want those reports as the input to inform the output because that's where you get a hallucination. Maybe it starts grabbing financial data from someone else. And I also think we're in store for a lot more hacks because with not just poisoning data, which we do in the functional space, if someone tries to access it. But, I mean, literally, there's the story...I think the guy was in Hong Kong, where they faked his board all the way through with it. Because you have agents acting and executing on people's behalf, you're going to have systems where people go onto the hardware and start generating fake financial numbers. And now that's going to get reported. Or you pay an invoice that you weren't supposed to pay because someone manipulated your AI agent. And a lot of the stuff that we're seeing now from Microsoft and everything else that's not really where the models will go. It's great to do it, but it's kind of like we're in the dial-up stage of AI. Like [chuckles], dial-up has its use cases and stuff, but it's nowhere near what the tech will look like in the future, and it's nowhere near how it will function. And one of the big pushbacks that you see, like, from Google, from all these different places, like, they want your attention. But at the end of the day, Google's an ad company. Facebook's an ad company. It's not in their best interest to have hyper-localized data that you control for your models and likewise. They want it in the cloud. They want it used there, where they can control that data, and they can monetize and advertise for you. But at the same time, like AI models work the best, and AI applications work the best when the data set is limited, so it can't hallucinate, and when the outputs are actually controlled to what it should be from an informed standpoint. So, where we're at this is just in the beginning stages of stuff. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. Thank you so much for sharing. I think if you could go back in time when you first started PrimeLab and give yourself some advice, what would you say? WENDELL: You know, I lived through the Great Recession. The Great Recession informed me a lot more. The things that I didn't understand this time...like the Great Recession, was market contributors doing stuff that impacted everyone with their spend and their adoption, and how those things were. But the Fed raising interest rates, which is, you know, Silicon Valley Bank failed and stuff like that, that dynamic of those startups and, like, how much startups power everything, like, I would have advised myself to pay more attention to the Fed and those market dynamics going forward. Because what changed is it's not just the Silicon Valley Bank failed it, you know, Rippling went down, for instance, which would pay therapists in Florida and all kinds of stuff. Like, it broke so many different things. It caused bottlenecks in business that we're still going through. Like, everyone's like, "Oh, we're getting back to normal." Really not. It's still, like, delayed all the way through it. The AI aspect is really getting back to normal, where people are really pushing AI. But if you look at SaaS and other industries, it really, really slowed down. And the reason why that matters is, like, in my field, production and timelines matter. So, when you have that plus, you know, the entertainment strike and everything else, you have things where the actual production of things starts slowing down immensely. Whereas AI is one of the few things that you still have innovations because that never really slowed down, same thing with the models. But all the rest of the industries and stuff have really slowed down. And understanding what that means from an operational execution standpoint...it's a good thing I have my co-founder [inaudible 32:24]. It matters quite a bit because it means your team sizes have to change, how you handle certain clients has to change. Because once those companies start downsizing or laying off people for whatever reason like, that's going to change how you're working with them, and their requirements are going to change as well. VICTORIA: And what do you see on the horizon as a challenge or a big hurdle that you face as a company or as an industry? WENDELL: You know, the entertainment market's really interesting from all the different sign-offs. The challenge is more execution of timeline. So, like, if you're doing something with, like, Nvidia and the healthcare thing, it could take years. If you're doing something in, like, the IoT space, you know, also years. If you do something in the entertainment space, it could take weeks to months, except the large studios. The larger studios, it could take a couple of years as well. But going to market, I think, is a very big challenge, not just for us but the whole entire industry. I mean, there's a reason why Sam Altman came down to LA to meet with studios, to try and get stuff moving forward. And I think one of the things that he's forgetting is like, you think of Netflix. Netflix is streaming. In order for that to work, they needed Roku, and they needed Kevin Spacey because [chuckles]...it's crazy to say that, but House of Cards is kind of what made it, right? And Hollywood was mostly boxing them out quite a bit. Same thing with Blockbuster otherwise. They had to drop a hundred million dollars, a large enough bankable star at the time that would really push something forward. And they had to basically really push Roku out there so that they had PMF across the board. What that means, though, is, like, Netflix is paying for content like crazy, right? So, this is kind of enshittification in a process. So, they're paying for content like crazy. So, now Hollywood's making money. They like it. At the studios, they don't love it when their stuff's going there because maybe it's less money, but now they start cutting the seasons short. They start cutting...it's a lot more algorithmic-driven. You have the ad systems that sort of come out. So, now, like, Netflix is not just doing ads where the customer experience is getting worse, but now, also, the business experience for those partners selling stuff is also getting worse, and all that value is getting driven to Netflix. Like, that's the tech system and Hollywood's learned that. But, like, when you're looking at the next adoption, like, they're hesitant for that. Just like a lot of stuff with AI, they're hesitant because they're thinking about all the power and control that they gave up. But you have to show how they're going to make money. You can't just cut costs, right? If you can't show how they're going to make money, you're not going to get adopted. That's kind of what I like there because so much of tech is about saving costs and being more efficient. In the entertainment industry, it's not just those two things. It's how can I make more money? And it's going to, like, ooh, you can monetize your content through training samples and stuff like that. So, our model goes exactly against what the large tech companies have where they want to take content, train on it, like the search engine does, suck the value off Sam Altman's Sora. Ours goes, all right, this is your content. Only you own this. You can take your own content, train it, and then perform this operation on it that is more efficient likewise. And if you choose to monetize it in any way, shape, or form, we can just take the functional space, not all the images and no one will ever see it, and take that functional space for training so that you can actually monetize from that as well. VICTORIA: I love that. Super interesting. Thank you so much for sharing. And do you have any questions for me or for Joe? WENDELL: I've noticed a lot of differences on, like, applications and how systems are built. So, I'm kind of curious about you guys' standpoint about applications, you know, the Apple Vision Pro. Facebook just said they'd start licensing out their AI system, or Meta, whatever. So, you have the comparisons to Android versus iOS that's happening, stuff like that. So, I'm really curious about, like, you guys' thoughts on the Vision Pro and that ecosystem. JOE: Well, I can't speak for all of thoughtbot, but I can say that, to me, it was interesting to see that get released. And it's been interesting to see how aggressively Meta and Apple have been pursuing the various VR markets. Like it reminds me of when television companies and studios worked really hard to get 3D movies to be a thing. WENDELL: [laughs]. JOE: Because I think they just ran out of things that people are asking for. Like, people were interested in getting better resolutions up to a point. Like, they wanted better packaging. But it got to a point where it was like, they didn't want to give anybody anything they were asking for. So, they were like, what if it's in 3D? And, like, for years, it seemed like Apple was really on top of seeing what people really wanted, and being able to present a very well-prepared version of that product before other companies were able to. And, personally, it's not what I saw with the Apple Vision Pro. Like, it wasn't the obvious missing space that was there when the iPhone or the iPad showed up. WENDELL: Yeah, I always go back to, like, the "Why?" question. You know, previously when...even just before we had talked, I was talking about comparative religions, and why that's so valuable is because it really teaches you...again, I've had this conversation before, but the comparative religions, if you think about religion as a tech company, they're always trying to solve why. Like, why did the sun come up? Why did this happen, right? And you always have to do that. So, apply that to technology, Google or Apple, why does this product exist? And when you get to, like, it just existed to make money, I think that's really the 3D thing. Whereas, like, why did the iPhone exist? It existed to solve this problem of being portable on the go and getting information in the way that we communicated, too. VICTORIA: Yeah. I think the Apple Vision Pro appeals to a very specific market segment and that that segment is not me [laughter]. I, actually, during COVID...after...it was, like...yeah, we're still in COVID. But during the pandemic, I moved from DC to California. And to connect with some old friends, I bought a VR headset and decided to go to virtual coffee with them. And it just makes me nauseous. And it actually affects...quite a lot of women get nauseous in VR. For some people, the look—the capability is really exciting. They have the extra money to spend on gadgets, and that's what they like. And it's very appealing, and the, like potential, is really interesting. I just find it for myself. Personally, I'm more drawn to tech that's not maybe cutting edge but solves problems for actual people. And kind of why I'm interested in PrimeLab, what you were mentioning is just how artists can use this technology to protect their creative work. To give that power back to people and that control over their content, I think, is really interesting rather than...I'm not really sure what I would do with the Apple Vision Pro [laughs]. Like, the early ones, I mean, it's cool. It's fun. I definitely enjoy it. Like, I sometimes like to learn about it, but it's not my passionate genre of tech that I normally go for. WENDELL: Going back to what you just said about, like, control, like, part of the thing is because of the hash IDs that we put into place, like, you don't need analytics. You don't need cookies or anything else, like the content holder. Basically, like, if you have a TV set or something and you want to stream content to it, you can actually see that information directly yourself. So, it takes the person generating it and the person viewing it. It forms...we call them function access keys. It forms a one-to-one relationship, basically, where you guys know if you want to know what you want to know, but then you choose to give access to the platform if you want to, which changes the dynamic of control quite a bit. And it's interesting because when you look at platforms like the Apple Vision Pro, and you look at Apple's whole entire system as a whole, just trying to lock in people, I think it's interesting because something like what I just described, Apple can't really stop. It's how compute works. So, if people want to use it, there's nothing they could do to stop it from being used. So, I'm really interested in the product stuff and just more about, like, how...and I'm curious what you guys think on this, too. Especially as you see phones and processors and everything else, I'm really interested in, like, how these things come about, like, how things are actually built and developed and the why for that, like, in the everyday use. So, like, the Apple Watch it started off as a fashion thing, which looked like a money grab, and then the why was, oh yeah, fitness. So, just curious if you guys have seen any other products out there that you're like, oh, this really resonates with me and the why. JOE: Yeah, I'm not really a gadget person, but I think the idea of taking some of the capabilities that we've gotten with the internet and with phones and making them hands-free was interesting. And that, to me, was what I think started pushing the development of products like the Apple Watch or Google Glass. Like, I think that hands-free capability, the trade-off became rewarding in the fitness field, but I think it's more generically applicable. I think that technology it's too obtrusive in other scenarios and too bad at its job to do some of the things it could do. And people got creeped out by Google Glass. But it doesn't really seem like the Vision Pro fits in there. Something being successful hands-free means it becomes less obtrusive, whereas the Vision Pro is like you become a cyborg. VICTORIA: Do you have anything else you would like to promote? WENDELL: I wouldn't say necessarily promote as much as like people with ideas or aspirations, like, I think it's important that you think counter to what everyone else is doing. There's that line of, like, when everyone else is running in one direction, run the other. And it's like, if you have a business or startup idea, really think about your market. Like, think about why you're doing what you're doing, and don't be afraid to just go out there and talk to people. You will get value no matter who you talk to. So, like, I'm a hugely tech-based person. My wife is a therapist, and I learn from her everyday things about emotional intelligence and all kinds of things that I would be an idiot otherwise. But also, learn, like, you can always learn something from someone. Like, take the time to listen to them. Take the time to actually, like, try and figure out what's one thing I can learn from someone, even if, you know, I learn stuff from my daughters even. Like, don't put things in boxes. Like, try to think outside of like, how can I ask a question to learn? VICTORIA: I love that advice. That's great. WENDELL: Have you guys used Suno before? VICTORIA: That's music, right? Music AI. WENDELL: All right, I got to show you guys this. We're going to create you a quick theme song. Like, this is what I mean by, like, it's an interesting solution for why. VICTORIA: That does sound fun. I like the ones...like my friend's a doctor, and she uses AI to take her conversation she's having with patients and automatically fill out her notes. And it saves her, like, 20 hours of documentation every week. Like, I like that kind of app. I'm like, oh, that makes a lot of sense. WENDELL: What's a style of music that you guys really like? JOE: Swedish pop VICTORIA: Like ABBA [laughs]? I'm down for an ABBA Giant Robots theme song. Sounds great. WENDELL: I think you're going to like this. [Music Playing] VICTORIA: These are awesome. They're super fun. Thank you so much. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected]. And you can find me on X @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.  AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions. Special Guest: Joe Ferris.

Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido interview Sarah Touzani, the founder of Waggle AI, an AI leadership skills coach. Sarah shares insights from her entrepreneurial journey, discussing how her past pottery hobby has influenced her focus and patience, which are crucial skills in her role as a founder. She explains how her transition from a traditional business school path to a senior role in a fast-growing startup, and eventually to founding Waggle AI, was driven by a desire to foster better managerial skills and workplace culture. Sarah talks about the early challenges and pivots in developing Waggle AI, such as incorporating AI for automatic note-taking to reduce user friction. She describes how Waggle AI assists in meeting preparations, records notes, and provides feedback on leadership skills, helping managers improve their delegation and empathy skills. She also highlights the importance of blending productivity tools with leadership development to enhance team performance and individual well-being. The discussion also touches on the ethical considerations and core values driving Waggle AI, to emphasize user privacy and minimizing additional workload for managers. Sarah concludes by outlining her vision for the product, focusing on deepening the AI's understanding of managers and adapting recommendations to individual team members' needs. Waggle AI (https://www.usewaggle.ai/) Follow Waggle AI on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/wearewaggle/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/waggle__ai/), TikTok (https://www.tiktok.com/@waggleai), or X (https://twitter.com/waggle_ai). Follow Sarah Touzani on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-touzani/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Sarah Touzani, Founder of Waggle AI, your AI leadership skills coach. Sarah, thank you for joining us. SARAH: Of course. Thanks for having me. VICTORIA: To open us up here, what is a past or current hobby that you enjoy? SARAH: I need to be honest. I haven't done much outside of working since I started the company. But prior to that, I used to spend a lot of time in a pottery studio making pots, and bowls, and mugs, and gifting them to anyone I meet. WILL: That's really impressive because I tried it for, like, I think a college class. And if you make one mistake, the whole thing gets ruined. I think I made, like, a little, very small bowl, and that was all I could get [laughs]. SARAH: Yeah. I'm not surprised. It takes a lot of practice and a lot of extreme focus in a way because, like you said, like, the single moment your hand moves slightly off, the whole thing is over. WILL: What's the item that was the most complicated or you're the most proud of? SARAH: I would say a big bowl that I made, which has a bit of an odd shape because, actually, it was going bad. And I kind of caught it back and made that mistake into something done on purpose in the design, and it worked quite well. But it's also not your average pot or average bowl you see everywhere. VICTORIA: That's really cool. And I echo Will's sentiments of being impressed by people who can do pottery because I did take a class right before the pandemic. And then, the pandemic hit, and we weren't able to fire any of our pieces [laughs]. But I found that it took just a lot of patience, even to be able to figure out the first step. Like, putting the clay onto the spinning wheel and doing that correctly just takes a lot of practice. And so, I'm curious if you find any of those skills or values from doing pottery translate into being a founder. SARAH: Yeah, actually, this is funny because I wrote a blog article about this a few years ago when I first started. I think there are a lot of learnings to take away from that and bring into work, weirdly. It's that sense of focus. When you're starting a company very early, there's a million things that you want to be doing and, actually, you can't. You need to do one thing and do it well. And the ability to zoom in and focus on one single thing is a massive game changer. Also, my last job was as busy and insane as the current one, which is being a founder, because it was, like, a senior role in a super-fast-growing startup. And I was always on my phone, or always thinking about work, or always having something coming at me and trying to answer questions and do stuff on Slack. And with your hands dirty, you're actually forced not to do any work and go back to that focus and that mental clarity. And that was also, like, extremely valuable back then. So, saying this out loud makes me think that I probably should go back and do it. VICTORIA: I recommend it. I did a hand pottery class with my little sister. I have a big sister, little sister mentorship relationship. And we made little ceramics, and it was super fun. Just, like, an hour a week. SARAH: Super nice. WILL: So, Sarah, you mentioned a little bit about your background. Tell us more about that. Where did you get started? How did you become a founder of your company? How did the idea come up? Just anything in those areas. SARAH: Yeah. Sounds good. So, I have a bit of, like, a traditional business school type of profile. I was a good student. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. So, I went into a business school, graduated, went into banking and consulting, which are, I guess, those, like, sexy jobs that you want to get when you are still at school. And I had done them and felt a bit out of place because I wanted to get things to move way faster than they were moving in these, like, very corporate set-in-their-ways type of companies. So, left that industry and moved to a very early-stage startup. I used to live in Paris back then, and I moved to London. At the same time, joined a very early-stage startup in FinTech. We were four when I joined. And we didn't have a product, didn't have any revenue. And I had to grow that company to about 200,000 customers, 50 million series A, and 80 people in the team, of which I managed about 50. All of this happened in 4 years. And I was hired into that role because of my background and because of my experience in risk management, compliance, like, all of the very technical aspects of my career. But at the end of the day, I spent most of my time trying to build a culture that motivated people to do their best work that enabled people to perform. And that's not something you really get to learn either at school or, in most cases, at work either. You just need to figure it out. So, I was trying to find a way where we could enable managers to learn these skills once they're in the job. Because when they mess up and when I messed up as a manager, it had a cost not only on the company but also on the wellbeing and mental health of the people that I was managing. And I couldn't really find a solution existing. So, I started working on one and spoke to one of my best friends about it, who is a multiple-time founder, and we just got to work. And fast forward a year and a half, here we are. VICTORIA: I'm wondering if there was anything in the early phases that surprised you in the customer discovery process, maybe caused you to shift direction. SARAH: Yeah, definitely. So, early days, we started with this problem, which is that most interactions between a team member and their manager happen in meetings. And that, overall, everyone is kind of frustrated with meetings, especially post-COVID, where we started doing a bunch of them online. It seemed to not work. And it seems that meeting management skills were a bit absent, and they should be part of the toolbox for a manager. So, started by trying to help managers run better meetings. And we relied on them taking notes from those meetings, like, in writing preparing for those meetings and taking notes for them in writing. And quickly realized that a very small portion of people were actually doing that note-taking. It seems obvious saying it out loud now, but back then, we didn't really know that. And so, we kind of had to switch gears and use way more AI than we intended, at least at that stage, to enable that automatic note-taking and gathering of data for us to be able to support the managers. Because if we don't know what they're working on and what's happening in their world, it's super hard for us to give them any feedback. But if they don't take notes and share them with us, then we can't really do anything. So, I had to shift gears and build an embedded note taker within the product to remove, like, a big portion of that friction that we saw with early users. WILL: I love that and just your whole product. I'm a productivity nerd, so I just love it. And I was a manager for a couple of years, and it's not the easiest. So, I love what your product is doing. Can you give us an overview of exactly what your product does so the audience can know what we're talking about? SARAH: Yeah, of course. So, the product is an AI coach or an AI co-pilot for managers. And the way it works is it connects to your calendar. It creates a space to collaborate with your team on each of the meetings you have. Prior to the meeting happening, we also give you access to one-click templates and ways to run those meetings. And then, when the meeting is happening, the Waggle Bot joins the call, takes notes for you, picks up on both action items that you mentioned during the conversation, who they were assigned to, who mentioned them, but also decisions that were made or about to be made that you need to either come back to and confirm or make sure that everyone is aware of. And finally, and the most exciting part, to me, is that it gives you feedback on your leadership skills, a bit like if your coach was listening to your conversations with your team members. And it will say things like, "You mentioned a few tasks during this call, and you didn't delegate any of them to the team while you had the opportunity to. So, next time you have a call, think about what tasks you could actually delegate," or it will say, "Well done showing empathy when Will, in your team, mentioned that their daughter was sick and that they had to leave work early today." So, it really works as a feedback loop to reinforce good behavior, but also give you tips and show you those unknowns that you didn't really think about and what impact they can have on your team and on your team's productivity. And finally, from that, we build a full picture of where you're good at, and where we can support you, and how those skills evolve over time through the feedback we give you. VICTORIA: Yeah, as a manager myself, I'm thinking about all the things I do to try to make my meetings as efficient as possible by, you know, having automatic Slack updates that say, "As a reminder, go look at your tickets, update them before the call," like, rotating who's taking notes and facilitating the meeting, and thinking about how that could reduce the burden from the team and just help everyone save time and share that information more widely. Because sometimes I do have maybe a dozen meetings in a day, like, 12, 30-minute meetings [laughs]. And that's a lot of notes to take. So, I usually estimate every meeting takes another 30 minutes to an hour to wrap up and follow up afterwards. SARAH: Yeah, I think that's a good assessment. And if you actually stick to spending those 30 minutes extra for each one of the meetings, I can tell you you're one of the best performers. Because what we've been seeing is that a lot of people, especially in startups or, like, fast-moving environments cannot afford to spend that time. So, we're trying to see how we can remove that friction and make those 30 minutes that you need to spend more like five minutes pre-meeting and potentially another five minutes after the meeting. And that's it. You're done. VICTORIA: How many people did you talk to in the first 30 and 90 days of your startup? SARAH: So, that's all we did in the first few months because we wanted to validate that this was not, like, an us problem. So, I spoke to about 75 managers over the first 2 to 3 months. So, that's in itself a lot of meetings, and a lot of calls, and a lot of recorded calls. And we still speak to an average of 5 to 10 managers per week to make sure that we keep a pulse on what our users are really experiencing and the pain points they are going through. WILL: Yeah, I could tell that you did talk to a lot of managers because I wish I would have had this whenever I had direct reports. Because I remember, early on, someone told me "No one cares what you know until they know that you care." But on the flip side of that, a lot of times, like you were saying, you're just so busy. Most companies they give you multiple direct reports, more than three or four. And it's almost impossible to really show how much you care in a small amount of time. But this seems like it makes it way more helpful to say, "Hey, I not only care about you as a worker but as a person, too." So, like you said, show empathy because they mentioned X, Y, Z, or take notes around, you know, whatever happened in this so that you know next time that, hey, ask him about that. So, I really like this idea that you created. The question I have around it is leadership is not easy. So, how did you come up with the direction to go with the leadership? If that makes sense. Because I've seen different leaderships, I've seen some leaderships it's like, yeah, show empathy. Show that you care about the person. And some it's like, no, it's all about work. All about work. And it seems like you lean more towards, I want to show that we care about the worker. So, where did you decide to take which route and things like that? SARAH: I love this because you're right. There's an art and a science to leadership. And I think, actually, there's way more science than we think. It's this common belief that leadership is something you are born with, and you don't need to learn that it's, I think, hurting both managers and the people they manage a lot. Because then people think, "Oh, but it must come naturally," or "This is a natural born leader." And as a result, the person who isn't or that people think isn't we think they're never going to change, and I don't think that's true. There's a set of behaviors that have been researched by organizational psychologists, behavioral scientists that have been shown to have impacts on people's motivation, productivity, outputs. So, we make sure to follow those best practices and those scientific data points. One of our advisors is a behavioral scientist. A couple of our advisors are leadership coaches. And one of them has even published a book around how to scale high-performing teams and high-performing companies. So, we try as much as we can to really embed what we're doing in science and in things that are known, albeit not super widely. And as you said, you need both. You need to care about the person doing the tasks, and you need to care about the tasks being done. But they can't really be separate. And you need to balance the act between the two things. So, that's why we have blended the productivity app with a part that is more centered around skills and skills development because those two things need to communicate. You can't just throw a tool at people and expect them to know how to use it. And at the same time, if you don't make sure that the upskilling and, like, feedback you give is rooted in that person's context and what they're going through, it's not going to be leveraged or used. So, our approach was really to blend these two things and make sure that, yes, this is going to make the manager's team happier, but it's also going to make them more productive. So, it's not just about happiness. It's about linking both productivity and well-being at work. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. I'm curious, how do you measure the impact you're having on wellbeing at work? What are the success indicators, and how do you know you're successful in a year or five years from now? SARAH: We only have been onboarding customers six months ago. So, I think we're starting to see some of the results we want to see, but it's still a bit early days because, as you said, behavioral change and habits take a long time to form and become sticky and start showing an impact on wellbeing. But overall, the feedback, the qualitative feedback we got was that managers feel way less imposter syndrome using the app. They feel that they are on top of what they need to achieve. They know what they're doing. They know what's expected of them. And their team also appreciates the fact that they are spending time and effort trying to get better because they know that they are using this tool to improve. So, they also get a signal that, okay, they are really trying. But at the same time, we do measure these. So, that feedback we give is actually based on measurement or assessment of each one of the skills that we measure for our users. And we have seen those scores evolve and go up over time just over the last few months. Personally, I'm quite bad at delegation. Potentially, that's why I brought it up earlier. And I have seen my score improve over the last few months using Waggle because it's more front of mind. I'm aware that I'm being assessed that almost someone is looking at what I'm doing, even if it's an AI. So, it feels a bit more safe than if it was a real person looking at what I was doing. But I know that I need to be on my A-game every day, and so I put in intentional efforts to try and delegate when I'm in a team meeting. And, potentially, I wouldn't have had that same level of awareness if I didn't get that feedback. I would just not delegate but not to be aware that I wasn't. WILL: I like what you said is AI is not like your manager sitting in the meeting with you and saying, "Hey, you have to get these scores up," but it feels safer that AI is telling you, "Hey, you have to improve your empathy and get better at that." So, I really like that idea. SARAH: Nice. Let's get you on the app then. MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you’re tight on time and investment, which is why we’ve created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product’s next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at tbot.io/entrepreneurs. WILL: So, I'm looking at your website now and, you know, I'm looking at the side, and it's like, "Hey, you know, Emily presented well, you know, send them a note of encouragement, or share a summary of the email." I made so many mistakes when I was a leader, so many. I wish I would have known the benefit of...because I almost...when I first went into it, I was like, they're adults. They can take their own notes. And now that I look at it, it's like, I could have easily helped out just saying, "Hey, here's a summary of the meeting that we had, and this is how we get better," and just helping each other out. So, I really like what you're doing here and what you have already in the app. What's on the horizon for the app? What does success look like in the next six months or five years for you? SARAH: So, the way we see it is we want to know more about the managers we're helping, know more about their context, what's going on in their daily life. Because the more we know, the more we can help them and support them. So, the way we see it is now we basically get data through the calendar connection, and through the meeting notes, and transcripts that we get. But we would also like to know how they communicate with their team on Slack. How do they get their tasks done, and how does their team get their tasks done? How do they follow up on those tasks? But also, how fast do they reply to emails? What's the context of their emails? All of these things are data points that we can use to know their context and know them better and really tweak the AI so that it knows them better and it adapts to their setup. So that, as we go, what the AI tells you is completely different from what it tells me, for example, because it's got to know you, and it's got to know what interventions work well for you and which ones don't and get smarter at that. And also, it gets to know how your team reacts to those behaviors that you show and attitudes. Which types of management work for Amy in your team versus Jim, right? Because they are different people as well. And so, whatever works with one person doesn't necessarily work with another and help you adapt and flex your management style with them. VICTORIA: Do you have any other core values that drive your everyday decisions? SARAH: We want to make sure that this never turns into a spying tool, and this is super key in the way we thought about the product, and we built it from very early days. We're conscious that we're having access, and our users trust us with a lot of data. And we're never going to share that data, even with your own manager. Because this is a tool for you as a manager to work on your skills and have that growth mindset, not for someone to spy on you or know how you're behaving. So, that's a commitment that we'll never share any specific data from users to their leadership team, to their HR team, no one else in the team, really. What we also have as a guiding principle is we want to minimize the amount of work that is required from you to leverage these skills. So, we are trying to save managers' time whenever we can and wherever we can and never just, like, load a lot of content and feedback on them that they're not going to have time to process an action. So to strike a balance between, okay, well, you probably need to spend a bit more time on this specific skill or following up on this specific meeting. But we also saved you two hours today throughout the day so that you can focus on that extra half an hour work that is going to help your skills improve. WILL: What are some of your biggest hurdles? SARAH: Well, basically, this didn't exist until now. And so, just finding how we talk about it and, like, I mean, no one is looking for the solution because they don't know it's there, right? So, the first part is, how do we find people that we can support and help who aren't necessarily looking for this but are looking for alternative solutions that exist right now? And how do we talk about it in a way that makes them click and makes them envision this new way of doing things as a potential better way? A lot of startups go through this journey. But basically, no one was looking for Ubers before Uber existed. People would hail a cab. And so, at the beginning, Uber pretended to be a cab service before they said, "Okay, we're actually not a cab. We're something else." And so, that something else is what we're trying to define right now. VICTORIA: I used to live in a neighborhood in DC where the cab drivers would not go to [laughs]. So, I really loved Uber when it first started because I could actually get a ride. So, that's where some of the innovation comes in sometimes. It's like, solving a problem and seeing the demand and then building a product around it. I'm curious about how you're building an AI product and how are you thinking about controlling the cost and the kind of infrastructure demands of an app like Waggle? SARAH: To be completely honest, we're not focused on that so much right now. I think it's a very fair question, and it's something that we're going to start to have to look into as we start to scale. But, for now, we're really focused on figuring out are we delivering the value we want to deliver to our users? Can we fix the problems they are hiring us to fix? But yeah, for sure, at scale, this is super costly, and we'll need to figure out the unit economics of the product and how to make it work, but we're not there yet. VICTORIA: And how are you finding the resources to be able to experiment and have the time to build this product? What networks, or communities, or venues have you found to create space to build your app? SARAH: So, we've been through Techstars last year. And I think the network around Techstars was super useful in gathering a lot of feedback in a very short amount of time over the three months that the program lasted. And we try to put a lot of content out there to try help people who are looking for solutions to communicate with an employee who's not performing at the level they expected them to or for a manager that doesn't know how to do a one-on-one. This type of content we're putting it out for free because it's solving our end user's problem, partially at least, and puts us on their radar. So, they might think, "Okay, I started looking into this first problem because that's what's front of mind right now. But as I see this product, it potentially could help me through a lot more issues that I'm currently having," and get visibility across those users that are exactly our perfect type of user. But yeah, overall, trying to put content out there creates a community around us. Lots of connections that happen through LinkedIn, through existing networks, through our users talking to other users about us, and even a number of coaches and L&D experts who really, really love what we're doing and talk about us to their users, to their customers and spread the word that way. WILL: You're talking about, like, explaining the product to your customers and everyone. I think, for me, it resonates fairly easy because I made so many mistakes as a leader. And I'm like, oh, this could have helped me so many times to be a better leader. And so, I'll make an assumption. It seems like your product was made out of you making mistakes and learning from them, and you built a product because you want to be a better leader. So, my question for you is: What advice would you go back and give yourself when you first started? What's some advice that you can go back in time and give yourself? SARAH: One of the first ones, and one of the biggest mistakes, and I've also heard this from so many other managers, is that as human beings, we tend to treat people the way we would like to be treated. And very quickly, we understand that that's not how things work. So, I used to like having space not to be managed very closely. So, I would just naturally give a lot of space to the people I started managing when I first started. It might work for some of them, but not for all of them. And that's what created the most issues and lack of performance, I would say, coming from them. And it's easy to think, oh, it's their fault. They're not performing. But no, it's my fault as a manager because I didn't adapt to their needs, and I didn't give them what they needed to perform. And that's, again, very different from one person to another. VICTORIA: Yeah. And I'm curious to go back to something you mentioned earlier about empathy. And just maybe how do you build an AI with a sense of empathy that helps managers be more empathetic? SARAH: So, again, interestingly, AI can pick up on human behaviors way more than we think. Like, the feedback we get from the app sometimes is super interesting and, like, sometimes even a bit scary because these are patterns, right? AI is good at recognizing patterns. If you tell it what to look for, it will find it. So, it works. It just works. VICTORIA: Well, I'm very curious to try it out. And I have some people I'm thinking about who work in building empathy with developers and engineers, and they probably would also really love to try it out. SARAH: Nice. Send them our way. VICTORIA: Of course. Do you have any questions for me or Will? SARAH: Yeah. What's the hardest thing you're currently doing at work that you would love support on? WILL: I think as a developer, there's a lot of things that I don't know that I wish I know what direction to take. Because I feel like as a developer, you come in and you're like, I want to learn X, Y, Z, but there's so much to uncover. For example, mobile, there's so many directions to learn with mobile. In the technical part, probably sometimes what direction to go in my learning and things like that. Because, like, I'm a senior developer, and I've reached a certain part. But I feel like now it's like you learn on the go. Like, oh, I have this problem. Let me solve it. So, sometimes I wish I can get ahead of that and be like, hey, go learn how to do this because you're going to use it later. So, that's probably my biggest thing with technical. And probably relational, you touched on it a little bit, but naturally, we're bent towards treating other people the way we want to be treated. And so, what that says is everyone around me has my exact background, my exact trauma, my exact upbringing. So, if you treat them that way, this should make sense, and that's just not the way it is. And so, I think, for me, it's making sure that I remind myself of that and to listen, to understand that background, trauma, whatever, of the people that I'm working with so that I can get to know them better and understand them better, and then I can know how to treat them. So, I would say that's probably my two biggest things that I have to continually work on and fight to make sure that I'm doing it the right way. SARAH: I love that. VICTORIA: Yeah. I really appreciate that perspective, Will. And from a slightly different angle, I think I'm someone who really enjoys complex tasks. So, I think those are actually more fun and easier to do [laughs] but that more mundane tasks are kind of difficult. And making sure I'm on top of those, like, tiny, little to-dos that make you effective just consistently with certain managing tasks. But I think in terms of complexity and one of the hardest things to do, kind of along the lines of what Will was saying, you have to establish a common language between your team. And you have to have a system for managing your work so that everyone feels heard and everyone understands each other, and so you can move quickly and make decisions. So, I think that's a really complicated task. And the more people you have, the more complicated it is. There's just so many different ways of solving that problem, and everyone comes back from different cultures, different corporate cultures, different tools that they've used, and their preferences. And people's preferences on tools can almost be religious, and that's interesting to me how strongly people can hold on to how they've been doing things. And making that shift in direction step by step and having the patience for it, I think, is difficult. SARAH: It's so funny that most problems, at the end of the day, are people problems, even if they don't start by being that. WILL: I totally agree with that because I chose what company to work for based off of the people and the culture more than the other problems. Because I've worked in some companies that had a great culture, but the people were treated right. And I enjoyed working with the people that I was working with. And then, I had some that I'm like, uh, I got to go in today and deal with such and such, and ugh. I think you're spot on. That caused me more stress than trying to solve the actual tasks that I was working on. So, yeah, I actually choose companies that I like working with the people. So, with thoughtbot, I love my co-workers. I love getting to know them the diversity in it. So, that's one of the reasons why I love thoughtbot so much. SARAH: What a great way to end this. VICTORIA: Yes. Thank you so much for being here with us today, Sarah. I really enjoyed listening to your story. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected]. And you can find me on thoughtbot.social@vguido. WILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.

Victoria Guido hosts Robbie Holmes, the founder and CEO of Holmes Consulting Group. The conversation kicks off with Robbie recounting his initial foray into the tech world at a small web hosting company named A1 Terabit.net, chosen for its alphabetical advantage in the white pages. This job was a stepping stone to a more significant role at Unisys, working for the state of New York's Department of Social Services, where Robbie inadvertently ventured into civic tech and public interest technology. Robbie shares his career progression from supporting welfare systems in New York to becoming a technological liaison between the city and state, leading to a deeper involvement in open-source solutions. His journey through tech spaces includes developing websites, diving into the Drupal community, and eventually establishing his consulting business. Robbie emphasizes the serendipitous nature of his career path, influenced significantly by community involvement and networking rather than a planned trajectory. Additionally, Robbie gives insights on the impact of technology in public services and his stint with the U.S. Digital Service (USDS), where he contributed to significant projects like vets.gov. Robbie promotes the value of community engagement in shaping one's career, stressing how connections and being in the right place at the right time can lead to unexpected opportunities and career pivots. Follow Robbie Holmes on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/robbiethegeek/), X (https://twitter.com/RobbieTheGeek), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/robbiethegeek), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/robbiethegeek), or GitHub (https://github.com/robbiethegeek). Check out his website at robbiethegeek (https://about.me/robbiethegeek). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Robbie Holmes, Founder and CEO of Holmes Consulting Group. Robbie, thank you for joining me. ROBBIE: I'm so happy to be here. It's great to talk to you, Victoria. VICTORIA: Yes. I have known you for a long time now, but I don't know everything about you. So, I thought I would start with the question: What was your first job that you ever had? ROBBIE: My first technical job, I ended up working for an internet web hosting company called A1 Terabit.net. And note the A1 because it came first in the white pages. It was a really small web hosting company run by a man named [SP] Maxim Avrutsky. I worked there for about six months before I submitted my resume to an online job forum. That's how old I am. And it ended up in the hands of Unisys, where I eventually worked for the state of New York. VICTORIA: Wow [laughs]. So, what a journey that you've been on to get from starting there, and what a marketing ploy back in the day with the white pages. So, tell me a little bit more about how you went from that first job to where you are today with having your own business in consulting. ROBBIE: Yeah, I wasn't even aware that I was jumping into the sort of civic tech space and public interest technology because the job I ended up with was working for New York State in the Department of Social Services. And welfare is federally funded and distributed to states and then states to localities. And New York City and New York State have a weird parasymbiotic relationship because over 50% of the welfare in New York State goes to the five boroughs in New York City. So, so much of my job was supporting the welfare system within the city, which was run by the human resources administration. So, that just led to this cascade of me, like, getting invested in supporting that, and then eventually jumping over to the other side where I worked for the City of New York. And at that point, I ended up becoming sort of a technology project manager and almost a tech liaison between the city and state. And I was out in the welfare centers, helping get the job centers up to a new application called the Paperless Office System, which was a client-server app that was a wrapper around welfare. All of that ended up leading to me finally making it to the network operation center for the City of New York, where I started replacing expensive solutions like HP OpenView with open-source solutions like Nagios and another open-source solution that provided an interface. And it really opened my eyes to the idea of open source. And I had really paid attention to a lot of open-source operating systems. So, I was kind of just a general tech nerd. And eventually, I started building websites, and that led me to the Drupal community in New York City, which was sort of this cascade that led me to communities. And I think that's sort of a through line for my entire career is I don't really think I ever had a plan. I think my entire career has been this sort of a lucky happenstance of being prepared when an opportunity arose and sometimes being in the right place because of my connections and community. VICTORIA: That's interesting about being involved with the people around you and seeing what problems are out there to solve and letting that lead you to where your interests lie. And then, following that, naturally led you to, like, this really long career and these really interesting, big projects and problems that you get to solve. ROBBIE: Yeah. And I think one interesting aspect is like, I feel I spent a lot of time worried about what I was going to do and where I was going to do it. I don't have a bachelor's degree. I don't have an advanced degree. I have a high school diploma and a couple of years in college. Well, 137 credits, not the right 125 or 124 to have a bachelor's degree. I have enough credits for a couple of minors though, definitely Greek art history, I think mathematics, maybe one more. I just never got it together and actually got my degree. But that was so interesting because it was limiting to what jobs I could find. So, I was in the tech space as an IT person and specifically doing networking. So, I was running the network operation center. I helped, like, create a whole process for how we track tickets, and how we created tickets, and how things were moved along. And, in the process, I started building websites for family and friends. And I built a website for our network operation center, so that way we could have photos to go with our diagrams of the network. So that way, when we were troubleshooting remotely, we could actually pull up images and say, "The cable that's in port six goes off to the router. I think that port is dead. Can we move it to the port two to its right, and I'll activate it?" And that made a really interesting solution for something we weren't even aware we had, which was lack of visibility. So many of the people in the fields were newer or were trying to figure it out. And some of us had really deep knowledge of what was going on in those network rooms and hubs. It led me to this solution of like, well, why don't we just start documenting it and making it easier for us to help when they're in the field? That led me to, like, the Drupal community because I started building sites in the Drupal CMS. And I went to, like, my first Drupal meetup in 2007, and there was, like, five of us around the table. That led to eventually me working for Sony Music and all these other things. But the year before I found my way to the Drupal community, I probably sent out, like, 400 resumes for jobs in the tech space, didn't really get any callbacks. And then, I met the community, and I started attending events, and then eventually, I started organizing events. And then, Sony I interviewed and talked to them a couple of times. And then, a friend of mine became the boss. And she contacted me and was like, "Hey, are you in the market?" And I was like, "I don't know. Why? What's up?" And she's like, "I became Doug." And I was like, "What?" And she was like, "I'm now replacing Doug at Sony. I'm running the team." And I was like, "Yeah, I'm happy to talk." And that was the big transition in my career from IT to sort of development and to delivery, right? Like, when it comes right down to it, is I became the manager of interactive media at Sony Music, which was really a job I landed because I was connected to the community, and running events, and getting to know everyone. VICTORIA: Yeah. And I think it's really cool that you had this exposure early on to what you called civic tech, which we'll get into a little bit, and then you went from the community into a commercial technology space and really getting into engineering with Drupal. ROBBIE: Yeah, it was an interesting transition because what they needed at Sony was sort of somebody who could ride the line between systems engineer, database administrator, and Drupal engineer, and also probably pre-DevOps DevOps person. So, I was responsible for all deployments and all tickets that came in. I was sort of both the technical arm of the help desk. When I joined, there was 24 websites on the Drupal platform, and when I left, there was over 200. And we upgraded it from Drupal 5 to Drupal 6 to Drupal 7 while I was there. So, I was heavily involved in all of those updates, and all those upgrades, and all of the deployments of all the new themes, and all the changes to all these sites. So, what was great was they, I believe, if I understand it correctly, they actually created a role for me out of, like, two or three jobs because they needed a me, and they didn't have a role that existed. So, all of a sudden, they made a manager of interactive media role. And I was able to work there for two years, sort of being what I jokingly say, like, a digital janitor. I used to say that I had, like, an eight-bit key ring in a push broom. And I was always mad at your kids for trying to break my stuff. VICTORIA: [laughs] That's so good. A digital service janitor [laughs]? The connection for me between that and where I met you in the U.S. digital service space [laughs] I feel like there's a lot of parallels between that and where your career evolved later on in life. ROBBIE: Yeah. What's amazing is I did all this early work in my career in civic tech and didn't realize it was civic tech at the time. I just realized what I was doing was providing this huge impact and was value. You know, I spent a couple of years in the welfare centers, and I used to say all the time that the two hardest jobs in the welfare center are the person applying for welfare and the person deciding whether or not that person gets welfare. So, being a technologist and trying to help make that as simple as possible or easier and smooth the edges off of that process was really important. And it really taught me how important technology is to delivering service. And I really never thought about it before. And then, when I was working for Phase2 technologies, I was a director of Digital Services. And I read in a blog post, I believe that was written by Mikey Dickerson, who was the original administrator for USDS, and he talked about HealthCare.gov. And he walked in the door, and he said, "How do you know HealthCare.gov is down?" And I think there was some allusion to the fact that we were like, we turn on the television and if they're yelling at us, we know it's down. And Mikey was like, "We know how to monitor things." So, like, if you don't know Mikey Dickerson, he's the person who sort of created the web application hierarchy of needs in Google. He was an SRE. And his pyramid, like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, was all over Google when I was there. I was so impressed with the idea that, like, we aren't talking about how do we solve this problem? We're talking about knowing when there's a problem. And then, if we know there's a problem, we can put some messaging around that. We can say, like, "We're aware," right? Like if the president calls the secretary, the secretary can say, "We know it's down. We're working on it," which is building up political capital. It's a really amazing process that I kept reading this blog post, and I was like, God, that's how I would approach it. And then, I was like, wow, I wonder if I could use my skills to help America, and very shortly submitted an application and was like, well, we'll see what happens. And about six months later, I walked in the door at the VA and was the eighth employee of the Digital Service team at the VA. That was a franchise team of the USDS model. VICTORIA: And can you say a little bit more about what is the U.S. Digital Service and expand upon your early experience there? ROBBIE: Yeah. So, the United States Digital Service was created after HealthCare.gov had its issues. Todd Park had convinced President Obama to reach out to get support from the private industry. And the few of the people who were there, Todd convinced to stick around and start creating a team that could support if there was this kind of issue in the future. I believe the team that was there on the ground was Mikey Dickerson, Erie Meyer, Haley Van Dyck, and Todd. And there was a few other people who came back or were very close at the beginning, including the current administrator of USDS. She has been around a long time and really helped with HealthCare.gov. It's amazing that Mina is back in government. We're very lucky to have her. But what came out of that was what if we were able to stand up a team that was here in case agencies needed support or could vet solutions before these types of problems could exist? So, USDS was what they called the startup inside the White House that was created during the 2014 administration of President Obama. The team started that year, and I joined in May of 2016. So, I would be, like, sort of the beginning of the second team of the VA U.S. Digital Service team. So, USDS supported this idea of tours of duty, where you're a schedule A employee, which meant you were a full-time government employee, but you were term-limited. You could do up to two years of duty and work, and then you could theoretically stick around and do two more years. That was how these roles were envisioned. I think there's lots of reasons why that was the case. But what's nice is it meant that you would come in with fresh eyes and would never become part of the entrenched IT ecosystem. There are people that transition from USDS into government, and I think that's a huge value prop nowadays. It's something that I don't know they were thinking about when the original United States Digital Service was stood up, but it was hugely impactful. Like, I was part of the team at the VA that helped digitize the first form on vets.gov and all the work that was done. When the VA team started, there was a team that was helping with veteran benefits, and they worked on the appeals process for veteran benefits. And I joined. And there was a team that was...eventually, it became dubbed the veteran-facing tools team. And we worked on vets.gov, which was a new front door to expose and let veterans interact with the VA digitally. And over time, all the work that went into the tools and the solutions that were built there, everything was user-researched. And all of that work eventually got brought into VA.gov in what they called a brand merger. So, we took, like, the sixth most trafficked front door of the VA and took all the modern solutioning that that was and brought it into VA.gov, the main front door. So, all of a sudden, there was an identity, a login provided on VA.gov for the first time. So big, impactful work that many people were a part of and is still ongoing today. Surprisingly, so much of this work has now fallen under OCTO, which is the Office of the CTO in the VA. And the CTO is Charles Worthington, who was a USDSer who's the epitome of a person who goes where the work is. Charles was a Presidential Innovation Fellow who helped out in the times of HealthCare.gov and, joined USDS and did anything and everything that was necessary. He interviewed engineers. He was a product person. Charles is one of the most unique technologists and civic tech people I've ever met in my life. But Charles, at the end of the Obama administration and in this transition, realized that the VA was in need of someone to fill the CTO role. So, he came over to become the interim CTO because one of the values of USDS is to go where the work is. And he realized, with the transition, that Marina Nitze, who was the CTO who was transitioning out, there was going to be a need for continuity. So, he came in to provide that continuity and eventually became the full-time CTO and has been there ever since. So, he has helped shape the vision of what the VA is working towards digitally and is now...he was just named the Chief AI Officer for the agency. Charles is a great person. He has successfully, you know, shepherded the work that was being done early by some of us into what is now becoming a sort of enterprise-wide solution, and it's really impressive. VICTORIA: I appreciate you sharing that. And, you know, I think there's a perception about working for public service or for government, state or federal agencies, that they are bureaucratic, difficult to work with, very slow. And I think that the USDS was a great example of trying to really create a massive change. And there's been this ripple effect of how the government acquires products and services to support public needs, right? ROBBIE: Yeah, I would say there's a couple of arms of the government that were sort of modernization approaches, so you have the Presidential Innovation Fellows, which are the equivalent of, like, entrepreneurs and residents in government. And they run out of...I think they're out of the TTS, the Technology Transformation Service over at GSA, which is the General Services Administration. But the PIFs are this really interesting group of people that get a chance to go in and try to dig in and use their entrepreneurial mindset and approach to try to solve problems in government. And a lot of PIFS work in offices. Like, Charles' early team when he first became the CTO included a lot of Presidential Innovation Fellows. It was basically like, "Hey, the VA could use some support," and these people were available and were able to be convinced to come and do this work. And then, you have the Presidential Management Fellows, which I think is a little bit more on the administration side. And then, we have 18F and USDS. The United States Digital Service is a funded agency with an OMB. And we were created as a way to provide the government with support either by detailing people over or dropping in when there was a problem. And then, 18F is an organization that is named because the offices of GSA and TTS (Technology Transformation Service), where it's housed, are on the corner of 18th Street and F in DC. And 18F is sort of like having a technology or a digital agency for hire within the government. So, they are full-time employees of the government, sort of like USDS, except government agencies can procure the support of that 18F team, just like they would procure the support of your company. And it was a really interesting play. They are fully cost-recoupable subcomponent of TTS, which means they have to basically make back all the money that they spend, whereas USDS is different. It's congressionally funded for what it does. But they're all similar sibling organizations that are all trying to change how government works or to bring a more modern idea or parlance into the government. I used to say to people all the time that at USDS, you know, we would set a broken bone say, and then we would come back around and say, like, "Hey, does your arm hurt anymore?" The idea being like, no. Be like, "Cool, cool. Maybe you should go to the gym, and you should eat better." And that would be, like, procurement change. That would be, like, changing for the long term. So, all the work I was doing was building political capital so we could do better work in changing how procurement was done and then changing how the government delivered these things. So, what was awesome was, like, we used to have these fights at USDS about whether or not we were a culture change or we were firefighters. And I think the reality is once we're involved, culture changes happen. The bigger question is, are we going to be there for the long haul, or are we only there for a shorter period of time? And I think there are reasons why USDS teams had both plays. And I think it really is just two different plays for the same outcome. VICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense. And to pivot a little bit, I think, you know, our audience, we have clients and listeners who are founders of products that are aimed at making these, like, public service needs, or to give some examples, like, maybe they're trying to track Congressional voting patterns or contact information for different state representatives, and they're trying to navigate this space [laughs]. So, maybe you can give some advice for founders interested in selling their products to government agencies. What can they do to make it more appealing and less painful for themselves? ROBBIE: I wouldn't consider myself a procurement expert, but at USDS, the procurement team called themselves the [SP] procurementati. And I was a secret member of the procurementati. I often was the engineer they would call to evaluate statements of work or sometimes be on technology evaluation panels. And it was fun to be a part of that. Things that most companies don't realize is government agencies will put out things like request for information or sources sought in the government space. And this is a way for industry to influence how government tries to solve problems. If you are trying to go after government work and you're only responding to an RFP, you're probably behind in your influence that you could have on the type of work. So, you'll see if a procurement seems to be, like, specifically focused on an approach, or a technology, or a framework, it's probably because some companies have come through and said, "I think this would probably solve your problem," and they gave examples. So, that's one way to be more connected to what's going on is to follow those types of requests. Another is to follow the money. My wife is this amazing woman who helped write The Data Act and get it passed through government. And The Data Act is the Data and Transparency Act. And that led to her heading over to treasury and leading up a team that built USAspending.gov. So, there is a website that tracks every dollar, with some exceptions, of the funding that comes out of Congress every year. And what's great is you can track it down to where it's spent, and how it's spent, and things like that. For education purposes, I think that is a really good thing that business and growth people can focus on is try to see and target where competitors or where solutions that you've looked at have gone in the past. It's just a good set of data for you to take a look at. The other piece is if you're creating a solution that is a delivery or a deliverable, like a SaaS solution, in order for something to be utilized in the government, it probably needs to be FedRAMP-approved, which is a process by which security approvals have been given so that government agencies have the green light to utilize your solution. So, there's tons of documentation out there about FedRAMP and the FedRAMP approval process. But that is one of those things that becomes a very big stopping point for product companies that are trying to work in the government. The easiest way to work your way through that is to read up on it a bunch, but also find an agency that was probably willing to sponsor you getting FedRAMP approval. Most companies start working with a government agency, get an exemption for them to utilize your product, and then you get to shape what that FedRAMP process looks like. You start applying for it, and then you have to have some sort of person who's helping shepherd it for you internally in the government and accepting any issues that come along in the process. So, I guess FedRAMP approval is one that's a little complicated but would be worth looking into if you were planning on delivering a product in government. VICTORIA: Right. And does that apply to state governments as well? ROBBIE: So, lots of state-related and city and locality-related governments will actually adopt federal solutions or federal paradigms. So, I think in the state of California, I think FedRAMP as one of the guiding principles for accepting work into the state of California, so it's not consistent. There's not a one-to-one that every state, or every city, or every locality will pull this in. But if you are already approved to be a federal contractor, or a federal business, or a federal product, it's probably going to be easier to make your way into the local spaces also. VICTORIA: Right. And as you said, there's plenty of resources, and tools, and everything to help you go along that journey if that's the group you're going for [laughs]. Mid-Roll Ad: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don’t have all year to do extended research. In just a few weeks, thoughtbot’s Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We’ll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts. Maximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint. VICTORIA: So, kind of bringing it back to you, like, you're saying you want those partnerships within the government. You want someone advocating for you or for your product or your service. Drawing that back to what you said earlier about community, like, how do you form a community with this group of people who are in the state, or federal government, or civic tech spaces? ROBBIE: Yeah, I think it's an interesting problem because so much of it feels impenetrable from the outside. Most people don't even know where to start. There are organizations out there that are pretty good community connections, an example I would give is ACT-IAC. It is a public-private partnership where people from within the government, experts in their fields, and people in the private industry who are experts in their fields will be together on community boards and engaging in panels. And so, it's a really nice way to start connecting those dots. I have no direct affiliation with ACT-IAC. But if they'd like to give me my own account, that would be great. But it is one of those organizations I've seen be successful for people trying to find their way into a community that is a little harder to find. I think, also, so much of the community engagement happens at conferences and around...so, like, if you're in the healthcare space, this last month, you've had multiple conferences that I think were really great for people to get to know one another, you know, an example is ViVE. It just happened out in LA, which is a little more on the private sector health space, but still, government agencies were there. I know that the Department of Veterans Affairs had people there and were on panels. And then, HIMSS is another conference that takes place, and that just took place down in Miami. And in Miami, HIMSS happened and a whole bunch of other social community events took place. So, I'm close with a thing called the Digital Services Coalition, which is 47 companies that all try to deliver good government based on the Digital Services Playbook that was created by USDS that lives at playbook.cio.gov and the way that they try to accomplish this work. And that organization, while they were in Miami, hosted a happy hour. So, there's a lot of connections that can be made once you start seeing the players and getting to know who's around. So, it's a little bit about trying to find your way to that first event, and I think that will really open up everything for you. Within a week or two, I was at an International Women's Day event at MetroStar, which is a really great company that I've gotten a chance to spend some time with. And then, I was at an event for the Digital Services Coalition talking about open source in government. So, there's a lot of stuff out there for you to be a part of that isn't super cost-prohibitive and also doesn't take a lot once you start to open the door. You know, once you peek around that corner and you find some people, there's a lot more to be done. VICTORIA: Yeah. And you touched on something at the end there that wants me to bring up some of the advantages you can have being a small business, a minority-owned business, or woman-owned business, or veteran-owned business, so thinking about how you can form those connections, especially if you have one of those socio and economic set-asides that you might want to consider if they're looking to work with the government as well. ROBBIE: Yeah. Those socioeconomic set-asides include small businesses, woman-owned small business. I think it's Native and Alaskan 8(a), which is historically underrepresented and service-disabled veteran-owned. So, there are also sub-communities of associations, like there's the Digital WOSB, the digital Women-Owned Small Business alliance that was founded by Jess Morris from Pluribus Digital, and a bunch of other companies in the Digital Services Coalition. I believe she's the president of the Digital WOSB right now. That is a sub-community of women-owned small businesses that are trying to connect and create a community that they can support one another. And that's just one example of the type of connection you can make through those types of socioeconomic set-asides. But once you have those official socioeconomic set-asides, it will allow you to get specific contracts engagements in the government that are not allowed or available for others. So, the government procurement process will have some amount of these specific socioeconomic set-asides that need to be hit. Like, 8% of all procurements need to go to this and 10% of all procurements need to go to this. So, I think the VA is probably one of the most effective at hitting any of the socioeconomic set-asides, specifically related to service-disabled veteran-owned small businesses. So, if you happen to be a person of color and you found a business and you are female presenting, right? You may have 8(a) woman-owned small business. If you also happen to be a veteran and you're service-disabled, all of those things stack. You don't just get to have one of them. And they can be really effective in helping a business get a leg up and starting out and trying to help even the playing field for those communities. VICTORIA: Yeah. What I really appreciated about my experience working with Pluribus Digital, and you, and people who had had that experience in the U.S. Digital Services, that there is this community and desire to help each other out and that you can have access to people who know how to move your product forward, get you the connections that you need to be competitive, and to go after the work. So, I love encouraging people to consider civic tech options. And maybe even say more about just how impactful some of it can be. And what kind of missions are you solving in these spaces? ROBBIE: Yeah, I often try to remind people, especially those who are heading towards or considering civic tech, there are very few places in this world that you can work on something that can impact millions of people. Sure, I was lucky enough. I have tons of privilege. I worked at a lot of wacky places that have given me the access to do the type of work that I think is impactful, but very little has the kind of impact. Like, when I was interviewed by Marina Nitze as, my last interview when I joined USDS, she sent me an email at the end of it and said like, "Everything was great. I look forward to working with you. And remember, every time you commit code into our GitHub, you'll be helping 8 million veterans." And then, she cc'd Todd Park. And Todd was the CTO of the U.S., and he responded back within a minute. Todd is one of the most busy people. It was amazing to me how fast he responded. But he was like, "Lemme tell you, as somebody who can talk on behalf of our president, our country needs you." And those kinds of things they're hard to comprehend. And then, I joined the Digital Service team at the VA. And one of the first things that I got to support was the 10-10EZ. It's the healthcare application for veterans. And before I got there, it was a hosted PDF that we were trying to replace. And the team had been working for months to try to build a new, modern solution. What it was is it was, like, less than six submissions were happening a day because it only worked in Adobe Acrobat, I think it was 6.5 and below, and Internet Explorer 8.5 and below. And if you think about the people that could submit utilizing that limited set of technologies, it was slowly becoming homeless veterans who were using library computers that had not been upgraded. So, there was a diminishing amount of value that it was providing. And then, on top of it, it was sort of lying to veterans. If the version of the Adobe Acrobat was out of date, or wrong, or too new, it would tell them to upgrade their browser. So, like, it was effectively not providing any value over time. We were able to create a new version of that and that was already well on its way when I joined, but we were able to get it out the door. And it was a React frontend using a Node backend to talk to that SOAP API endpoint. Within the first week, we went from 6 submissions a day to 60 submissions a day. It's a joke, right? We were all 10x developers. We were like, "Look at us. We're killing it." But about three years later, Matt Cutts came to a staff meeting of USDS, and he was the second administrator of the USDS. And he brought the cake that had the actual 10-10EZ form on it, and it said, "500,000." And he had checked with the analytics team, and there were over 500,000 submissions of that form, which means there are 500,000 possible veterans that now may or may not have access to healthcare benefits. Those are big problems. All of that was done by changing out one form. It opened up the world. It opened up to a group of veterans that no one else was able to do. They would have had to go into a veteran's office, and they would have had to fill it out in paper. And some veterans just don't have the ability to do that, or don't have an address, or don't have a...so, there are so many reasons why having a digital form that worked for veterans was so important. But this one form that we digitized and we helped make modern has been submitted so many times and has helped so many veterans and their families. And that's just one example. That's just one form that we helped digitize. But now the team, I mean, I'm back in the VA ecosystem. There's, like, 2,500 people in the general channel in the office of the CTO Slack organization. That's amazing. There's people there that are working all day, every day, trying to solve the same problems that I was trying to solve when I got here. And there's so much work being done to help veterans. But that's just one example, right? Like, at USDS, I know that the digital filing for the free version of your tax form, the IRS e-file Direct, just went live. That was something that USDS had been working on for a very long time behind the scenes. And that's going to impact everybody who submits their taxes. These are the kind of problems that you get to work on or the scope of some of the problems if you work in these types of organizations, and that's really powerful. It's the thing that keeps drawing me back. I'm back supporting the VA again through some contracts in my business. But it's funny, like, I was working for another agency. I was over working at DHS on an asylum project. And a friend of mine kept telling people to tell me, "Man, veterans need you. If only there was another one of you to help us over here, that would be great." And eventually, it led to me being like, well, veterans need me. I'm going to go back to the VA. And that was my second tour at USDS at the Department of Veteran Affairs. And now I'm back there again. So, it's a very impactful place to work. There's tons of value you can provide to veterans. And, to me, it's the kind of work that keeps bringing me back. I didn't realize just how much I was a, like, impact junkie until I joined USDS, and then it really came to a head. I cannot believe how much work I've gotten to be a part of that has affected and supported those who get benefits and services from the federal government. VICTORIA: [inaudible 33:47] impact junkie. That's funny. But yeah, no, thank you for sharing that. That's really interesting. Let me see if you could go back in time to when you first started in this journey; if you could give yourself any advice, what would you say? ROBBIE: Yeah, I think I spent so much time being nervous about not having my degree that I was worried it was going to hinder me forever. And it's pretty amazing the career I've been able to thread together, right? Like, you know, I've hit on a few of them already. But, like, I started with a small web hosting company, and then New York State in the Department of Social Services, then New York City in the Human Resources Administration, Sony Music, Zagat Survey, Google, Johnson & Johnson, IDT telecommunications, Phase2 technologies, where I got to work on an awful lot of problems in lots of awesome places like NBA.com, and Major League Soccer, and Bassmaster. And then, the United States Digital Service where I got to work on things supporting the Department of Veterans Affairs and the Department of Homeland Security over at ADA.gov in DOJ. I helped them out. And I worked over at USDA helping get Farmers.gov off the ground. So, everything on my left leg, tattoo-wise, is something that changed my life from my perspective. And I have a Drupal tattoo on the back of my leg. I have a DrupalCon. So, anytime somebody said "Drupal" anywhere near a USDS person, I would magically appear because they would just be like, "Oh, Robbie has that Drupal tattoo." So, I got to work on a lot of dot govs that eventually landed or were being built in Drupal. So, I got to support a lot of work. And it meant that I got to, like, float around in government and do a lot of things that others didn't get to do. When CISA stood up, which is the office of security inside of DHS, it's one of the newest sub-communities or subcomponents, they built DHS SchoolSafety.gov, which is a cross-MOU'd site. And I got to sit in and help at the beginning of that because of my Drupal background. But it was really fun to be the person who helped them work with the vendors and make sure that they understood what they were trying to accomplish and be a sort of voice of reason in the room. So, I did all of that work, and then after that, I went and worked at Pluribus Digital, where I got a chance to work side by side with you. And then, that led to other things, like, I was able to apply and become the director of Digital Services and software engineering for my local county. So, I worked for Prince William County, where I bought a house during the pandemic. And then, after that contract ended, I had already started my own business. So, that's led to me having multiple individual contracts with companies and so many people. I've gotten to work on so many different things. And I feel very lucky. If I could go back and tell myself one thing, it's just, take a breath. Everything's going to be okay. And focus on the things that matter. Focus on the things that are going to help you. Focus on community. Focus on delivering value. Everything else will work itself out. You know, I joke all the time that I'm really good at providing impact. If you can measure my life in impact and value, I would be a very rich man. If you can measure it in money, I'm doing all right, but I'm never going to be yacht Robbie, you know, but I'm going to do okay. VICTORIA: Oh my god, yacht Robbie. That's great. So, just to recap, everything's going to be okay. You never know where it's going to take you. And don't be limited by the things that you think, you know, make you not enough. Like, there's a lot of things that you can do out there. I really like that advice. ROBBIE: And I think one last piece is, like, community matters, if you are a part of communities and you do it genuinely, how much that will impact your career. I gave a talk from Drupal NYC to the White House and beyond. And I talked through my entire resume and how everything changed when I started doing community engagement. When I went to the Drupal community in New York City and how that led to Sony, and that led to Zagat, which led to me getting acquired by Google, like, these things all cascaded. And then, when I moved to the DMV, I was able to join here and continue supporting communities, which allowed me to bring people into the local civic tech community from the local DC tech community. So, so many of the best USDS engineers, and designers, and product people I was able to help influence to come to government were people I met in the community or the communities I helped support. You know, I was an early revivalist of Alexandria Code and Coffee. It was a community that was started and then wavered. And then, Sean McBeth reached out to the community and said, "Do we want to help and support getting it off the ground again?" And I immediately said, "Yes." And then, that led to my friends at BLACK CODE COLLECTIVE wanting to create a community where they could feel safe and connected and create a community of their own. And then DC Code & Coffee started. And from there, Baltimore Code & Coffee kicked off. And it's just really nice that, like, it doesn't matter where I've been. All these things keep coming back to be a part of community and help support others. And you will be surprised at how much you get back in return. I wouldn't be the person I am today in my community. I wouldn't have my career if it wasn't for the people who started and helped shepherd me when I was starting out. And I feel like I've been trying to do the same for people for a really long time. VICTORIA: I love that. That's what I say, too, when people ask me for advice on careers and how to grow. And my biggest piece is always to go out and meet people. And go to your community, like, look and see what's happening. Like, find people you like hanging out with and learning from. And just that should be the majority of your time probably if you're trying to figure out where to go with your career or even just, like, expand as a person sometimes [laughs]. Robbie, I was going to ask; you mentioned that you had bought a house in Virginia. One of my other warmup questions was going to be, what's your favorite thing to put on the grill? ROBBIE: My house in Virginia definitely gets a lot of use, especially in the spring and the fall. I'm a big fan of team no extreme when it comes to temperature. But during those time periods, my grill is often fired up. My favorite is probably to make skirt steak on the grill. I'm a huge fan of tacos, especially made out of skirt steak. I'm in all day. That's one of my favorites. I also love to smoke. I have a smoker because I'm a caricature-esque suburban dude. I'm going to live into all of the possible things I could have. But I've had a smoker for a long time, and I love making sort of poor man's burnt ends. It's one of my favorite things to make. But you got to have some time. That's the kind of thing that takes, you know, 14 hours or 16 hours, but it's really fun to take advantage of it. A quick thing I love to make is actually smoked salmon. It takes longer to brine it than it usually does to smoke it. But it is one of the nicest things I've made on my smoker, you know, fresh pesto on a piece of salmon is pretty awesome, or everything bagel. Everything with the bagel seasoning is a pretty fun way to smoke some salmon. VICTORIA: Wow, that sounds so good. I'm going to have to stop in next time I'm in Virginia and get some [laughs] and hang out. Do you have any questions for me? ROBBIE: I'm excited to see where you've gone and how you've gotten here. I think this is such a cool job for you. Knowing who you are as a person and seeing you land in a company like this is really exciting. And I think you getting to be a part of this podcast, which we were joking about earlier, is I've been listening to probably since it started. I've been a big fan for a long time. So, it's cool to be here on this podcast. But it's also cool that my friend is a part of this and gets to be a part of this legacy. I'm really excited to see where you go over time. I know my career has been changing, right? I worked in government. Before that, I did all kinds of other stuff. Nowadays I have my own business where I often joke I have sort of, like, three things I offer, which is, like, consigliere services. Wouldn't it be nice to have a Robbie on your executive team without having to pay them an executive salary? You know, another one is like, you know, strategy and mentoring, but these are all things I know you do also, which I think is cool. But I've been working on contracts where I support companies trying to figure out how they modernize, or how their CTO can be more hands-off keyboard, or how their new director of business development can be more of a technical leader and taking on their first direct reports. So, I just enjoy all those aspects, and I just think it's something that I've watched you do in the company where we worked together. And it's always fun to see what you're working on and getting a chance to catch up with you. I feel like you're one of those people that does a really great job of staying connected. Every once in a while, I'll get a random text message like, "Hey, how you doing?" It always makes me smile. I'm like, Victoria is a really good connector, and I feel like I am, but you're even better at it on the being proactive side. That's how this all came about, right? We caught up, and you were like, "Why don't you come on the podcast?" So, that's really exciting. VICTORIA: Well, thank you, Robbie. Yeah, I think that's one of the great things about community is you meet people. You're like, "Oh, you're really cool. And you're doing cool stuff all the time. Like, how can I support you in your journey [laughs]? Like, what's up?" Yeah, for me, it was hard to actually leave DC. I didn't, you know, really think about the impact of leaving behind my tech community, like, that network of people. It was pretty emotional for me, actually, especially when we finally, like, stopped doing the digital version [laughs]. And I, like, kind of gave up managing it from California, which was kind of funny anyways [laughs]. Yeah, so no, I'm grateful that we stayed in touch and that you made time to be here with us today. Is there anything else that you would like to promote? ROBBIE: You know, just to remind you, you've done a great job of transitioning into where you are today, but anybody can do that, right? Like, before I moved to the DC area, I was in New York, and I was helping to organize JavaScript events. And I started looking at the DC area before I moved down here. And I found the DC Tech Community. And I found the Node School DC GitHub organization and reached out to the person who had ownership of it and said I wanted to help and support. I looked at this the other day. I think I moved on May 8th, and then, like, May 11th, when I walked in the door, somebody was like, "Are you new?" And I was like, "Yeah, I just moved here." And they were like, "Oh, from where?" And I was like, "New York." And they were like, "Are you that guy who's been bugging Josh about running Node school events?" I was like, "Yeah." And like, they were planning an unconference at the end of the month. And they were like, "Would you like to run a Node school at that unconference?" Like, 27 days later. So, it was amazing that, like, I immediately, like, fell from the New York Community where I was super connected, but I went out of my way to try to, like, see what the community looked like before I got there. And I was lucky enough to find the right people, and immediately I joked...I think I wrote a blog post that said like, "I found my new friends. By, like, going from one community to another, gave a person who was in his 40s a chance to meet new people very quickly." And it was pretty amazing, and I felt very lucky. But I did spend a little bit of energy and capital to try to figure it out because I knew it was going to be important to me. So, I think you've done a really good job. You've helped launch and relaunch things that were going on in San Diego and becoming a part of this connection to more people. I think you and I have a very similar spirit, which is like, let's find a way to connect with humans, and we do it pretty effectively. VICTORIA: Well, thank you. That really boosts my confidence, Robbie [laughs]. Sometimes, you show up to an event you've never been to before by yourself, and it's like a deer in headlights kind of moment. Like, oh God, what have I done [laughs]? ROBBIE: Oh, and the last thing I need to mention is I also have a podcast. I have my podcast about film. It's called Geek on Film. I used to record it with my friend, Jon. He's a little busy right now. But I used to pitch it as a conversation show about the current films that were going on. Now, it's one lone geek's ramblings about what he just saw. It's a great podcast for me because it gives me an opportunity to think a little more critically about film, which is one of the things that I probably have almost enough credits to get a minor in. But I absolutely love cinema and film in general. And it's given me an opportunity to connect with a lot more people about this subject and also to scratch the itch of me being able to create something around a community and around a thing I really love. VICTORIA: That's super cool. Yeah. You're top of mind because I also like films. I'm like, what's Robbie up to? Like, what's the recommendations, you know [laughs]? Do you have a top film recommendation from the Oscars? Is that too big of a question? ROBBIE: So, the one I will say that didn't get enough spotlight shined on it was Nimona. So, I'm a huge fan of the Spider-Man movies. I think Spider-Man Into the Spider-Verse and Across the Spider-Verse are both masterpieces. But Nimona is an animated film that was picked up by Netflix, and it is amazing. I don't know that I laughed or cried or was more moved by a film last year. And I don't know that it gets enough credit for what it was. But it did get nominated for best-animated film, but I don't know that enough people paid attention to it. Like it may have gotten lost in the algorithm. So, if you get a chance, check out Nimona. It's one of those beautiful, little gems that, if you travel down its story, there's all these twists and turns. It was based on a webcomic that became a graphic novel. One of the production companies picked it up, and it wasn't going to see the light of day. And then, Netflix bought its distribution rights. There's going to be a great documentary someday about, like, Inside Nimona. But I think the movie itself is really charming and moving, and I was really impressed with it. So, that was the one that got me, like, just before the Oscars this year, where I was like, this is the little animated movie that could, in my opinion. It's so charming. VICTORIA: I will definitely have to check that out. Thank you for giving us that recommendation. ROBBIE: Totally. VICTORIA: Final question. I just wanted to see if you had anything to share about being an advisory board member for Gray and for Hutch Studio. Could you tell us a little bit more about that? ROBBIE: Yeah. So, Gray Digital was founded by a friend of mine. We met through United States Digital Service. And his organization...I had been supporting him for a while and just being behind the scenes, talking to him and talking through business-related issues. And it was really nice. He offered to make me an official advisory board member. It was a great acknowledgment, and I really felt moved. There's some great people that are supporting him and have supported him. They've done really great work. Gray is out there delivering digital services in this space. And I think I was really lucky to be a part of it and to support my friend, Randall. Hutch is different. Hutch is an organization that's kind of like if you think about it, it almost is a way to support entrepreneurs of color who are trying to make their way into the digital service delivery space. Being an advisory board member there has been really interesting because it's shaping how Hutch provides services and what their approach is to how to support these companies. But over the last year, I've convinced the person who's running it, Stephanie, with a couple of other people, to open the door up or crack the door so we could talk directly and support the individual companies. So, it's been really great to be a Hutch advisory member to help shape how Hutch is approaching things. But I've also been a part of, like, many interview processes. I've reviewed a lot of, like, [inaudible 48:01] who want to join the organization. And I've also created personal relationships with many of the people who are part of Hutch. And, you know, like, you know me personally, so you know I run a Day of the Dead party. We'll just party at my house every year. I have a huge amount of affection for Mexican culture and, in general, the approach of how to remember people who are a part of your life. So, this is, like, the perfect way for me to bring people together at my house is to say, like, "Hey, my dad was awesome. What about your family? Who are your people?" What's really nice is that has given me an opportunity to host people at my house. And I've had Hutch company owners at my house the last couple of years and the person who runs Hutch. So, it's a really great community that I look at that is trying to shape the next emergent companies that are helping deliver digital services across the government. And it's really fun to be early on in their career and help them grow. Again, it seems silly, but it's the thing I care a lot about. How do I connect with people and provide the most value that I can? And this is a way I can provide that value to companies that may also go off and provide that value. It's a little bit of an amplifier. So, I'm a huge fan of what we've been able to accomplish and being a part of it in any way, shape, or form. VICTORIA: Well, I think that's a really beautiful way to wrap it up. ROBBIE: Really glad to catch up with you and be a part of this amazing podcast. VICTORIA: Yeah, so much fun. Thank you again so much. It was great to be here with you today. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. You can find me on thoughtbotsocial@vguido. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.

Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido are joined by Hans Kullberg, Co-Founder and Head of Product at Pathfinder Health. Pathfinder Health is an early-stage startup that provides objective insights into children's developmental health to pediatric clinics. Hans shares his journey, starting with his career on Wall Street, moving through various startup experiences, and finally, his pivotal role at Visa, which was significantly shaped by the tragic loss of his daughter, Aviva. This loss inspired him to focus on helping families get timely and accurate developmental diagnoses for their children. The episode highlights pediatricians' challenges in monitoring developmental health due to time constraints during appointments and the lack of detailed observation that these brief interactions afford. Hans explains how Pathfinder Health aims to address these challenges by enhancing the collaboration between parents and pediatricians through technology, providing detailed tracking and insights into a child's development outside of clinical visits. This includes innovative approaches like using machine learning to analyze video data of children in their natural environments, helping to pinpoint developmental milestones more accurately. Hans also discusses the broader implications of early and accurate developmental diagnosis by emphasizing the importance of using data to overcome the limitations of current medical practices. By integrating detailed developmental data into health records, Pathfinder Health hopes to transform pediatric care by being able to allow for earlier interventions for its patients. Pathfinder Health (https://www.pathfinder.health/) Follow Pathfinder Health on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/pathfinderhealth-inc/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/pathfinderhealth/), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@pathfinderhealthapp), TikTok (https://www.tiktok.com/@pathfinder.health), X (https://twitter.com/joinpathfinder), or Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/PathfinderHealthInc). Follow Hans Kullberg on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamidah-nalwoga-78143a255/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Hans Kullberg, Co-Founder and Head of Product at Pathfinder Health, an early-stage pediatric developmental health tech startup focused on bringing objective insights on children's developmental health to pediatric clinics everywhere. Hans, thank you for joining us. HANS: Thank you, Will. Thank you, Victoria. It's really awesome to be here. VICTORIA: Great. Well, I met you at the San Diego Founders Hike at probably 7:30 in the morning on a Friday [laughs] a couple of weeks ago. So, tell me just a little bit more about what do you do for fun around San Diego? HANS: Yeah, I do a lot of fun. First of all, I'm a dad of four kids, so that keeps me busy, and it keeps my fun time relegated to the windows that I can do it. But I love to start morning surf right out here in Mission Beach in San Diego. I love to cook for a lot of people, house parties, and as well as hunger suppers. And then, I love playing saxophone when I can. VICTORIA: What's your favorite song to play on the saxophone? HANS: So, I'm messing around with it right now. I'm not great, but I'm learning Happy Birthday right now. VICTORIA: That's a great song, and you have a lot of birthdays to celebrate, it sounds like, over there. So, good to have that handy. HANS: Mm-hmm. Yep. VICTORIA: Well, awesome. Well, why don't you tell us a little bit more about your background and how it led to Pathfinder Health? HANS: My background is in data science and economics, and started my career actually on Wall Street, really looking at economic data, things like GDP and inflation, and macroeconomic variables like employment nonfarm payrolls. And I really tried to figure out a way to understand how to predict those at a very high degree of accuracy. That kind of led to my very first startup called, EconoCast, which was fairly successful. And that was exited back in 2013. Then I did a few other things, some startups that were successful, others that were not. But then I really wanted to kind of chop my teeth into product and really learn product from the inside out at a much bigger company. So, I joined the innovation team at Visa. I was working on Visa Acceptance Cloud, which is really kind of a point-of-sale solution in the cloud. So, if you're familiar with Apple Pay and Google Pay, it was pretty much the mirror image of that for receiving payments and accepting payments. And that really helps a lot of long-tail merchants, if you will, kind of in places like India, and Nigeria, Brazil, et cetera, that are traditionally accepting cash payments to be able to accept credit and debit payments. However, life took a turn. And while I was at Visa, my third child, Aviva, passed away. And there's, you know, a lot of backstory on that side, but she still doesn't have a diagnosis to this day. It was certainly the hardest part of my life and time of my life for my wife, my family. And I took some time off, really embraced the grieving process, but really tried to figure out what I wanted to do next. And really, that centered around a promise that I made to my daughter was to really try to get parents and families the answers that they deserve to really understand their diagnosis. So, I talked to a lot of different people in the healthcare community, trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my particular background in data science and technology and building products to be able to kind of marry that with getting parents the answers that they need. And so, that's where I really came in contact with my co-founders at Pathfinder Health to really build what we believe is the most advanced way to really help pediatricians and providers understand how children are developing outside the clinic by collaborating, having parents and pediatricians really collaborate to understand the development across social, emotional, language, cognitive, and movement, all of those things that happen that require observation where pediatricians just have very little time. And we really kind of package that in a way to give them a snapshot of how they're developing relative to the peer group, to really kind of clarify a lot of these gray areas, if you will, and not take that wait-and-see approach, but rather to make that referral or diagnosis or get them on any kind of therapy that they need as soon as possible. And really, that's the diagnosis that this problem. The meta-problem that we're trying to solve is 25% of all children have some type of developmental delay, yet only 3% get diagnosed before the age of 3. And so, that's, you know, something very near and dear to my heart and something I'm working on every single day. That's how I got to where I am. WILL: Wow. I am so sorry to hear about your daughter. And I'll just be totally honest: that's one of my biggest fears as a dad. So yeah, I am so sorry to hear that about your daughter. What was that situation like? How long ago was it? And kind of not having to answer, like, where are you at with that? HANS: My daughter was born in January of 2020. Aviva lived for over ten months, and she passed away here in San Diego in November of 2020. I won't get into the background of it, but the short end of it is she never really had a diagnosis. But she had some anomalies that really created a condition called bradycardia, which is slow heart rate, only intermittently. It happened every couple of months. So, it wasn't really even a daily thing. Doctors didn't have any answers for it. We saw teams of specialists and I'm talking about cardiologists, neurologists, mitochondrial specialists, pulmonologists, every single type of specialist under the sun. But throughout six different hospitalizations and then the autopsy afterwards, they never figured out what the root cause was. And she had some signs that were different, but, you know, we live in this world where data is abundance. Generative AI is huge, right? We have all these tools and everything else, but yet when it comes to medicine, a lot of times we rely on the human knowledge of the physicians that we see. I'm not saying that they did anything wrong because they did the best they could. But what really upset me was that, you know, we go through this differential diagnosis of A, B, C, D, and this and the other, and they all strike out. You know, what's the backup plan? And that's where, you know, we should be using a lot more data at the big data level to really understand, you know, these anomalies. And maybe someone out there had something similar that she did or maybe a doctor in New York, or Boston, or Atlanta, or Miami somewhere would have known what to do. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. And really, that set me off my journey, really trying to understand that problem, in particular. There's a lot of things that kind of stand in the way from real AI being used in medicine. Of course, radiology is one exception. But when it comes down to interoperability of electronic health records as well as HIPAA, and privacy, and all the data silos they're in, Google's tried at this for a while to get to a place where you can have more precise type of data from a diagnostic perspective. Similar to the way that Facebook, and Amazon, and the Googles of the world know precisely how likely you are to click a button, I think medicine should be moving in that form and fashion. And so, yeah, that's really where I came across this journey. And the grieving process that's a whole 'nother subject as well, but I'm a very big believer in embracing that. Each of us took a year off and really just made sure that we were taking a lot of self-care and healing. And I went to therapy for the first time in my life, did a lot of writing and a lot of other therapeutic activities, including writing children's books. So, I'm a children's book author. And that's kind of what led me to finding out what I wanted to do on a day-in, day-out basis to help parents get the answers they need, knowing that, you know, mom and dad play a very big role in this, those first five years of life which, in my opinion, are the most critical and crucial and also the most precious years of your life. VICTORIA: You know, I really admire how you took such a painful moment and turned it into, how do I solve this problem for other people and really build community off of that as well? I don't have kids myself, but I have a niece and nephew who's two and four now. And I remember watching my sister-in-law try to keep track of all of the things that are happening for her child in the first year of their life, and it's not easy. And how do you identify if something has gone wrong? And I'm curious, like, what you learned from that process, or if you've learned anything about that process that's shifted your direction with Pathfinder. HANS: I mean, the biggest takeaway from my own personal experience is knowing that parents can play a very proactive role, an important role in the care for their child. And so, when you look at the pediatric visit, and, Will, you probably can relate to this, you know, for 15 minutes, you know, they're checking your eyes, ears, throat, heart, giving you your vaccines, et cetera. And there's a lot of different things they have to do to check off on their task list. But yeah, when it comes down to developmental health, we're talking about social, emotional cues, movement, cognitive, and language; it really requires observation. And they have very little time for that. Plus, you know, kids never [inaudible 08:49] themselves. There's well-child visits as well. It sort of leads to a lot of these gray areas. You know, on average, a pediatrician sees about 20 to 24 different kiddos a day, which is quite a heavy burden. They're definitely the most overworked and underpaid specialists across the whole healthcare system. But when you think about it, you know, what they do after the well-child visits is they give usually mom or dad a two-page handout of "This is..." you know, "Your child is two years old, and here's what you can do." A lot of times those handouts just, you know, get lost, and they're very not personalized. So, what we're doing we're a team of developmental-behavioral pediatricians, as well as early childhood specialist. We're talking about occupational therapists, physical therapists, child psychologists, and speech therapists. We're really combining all our interdisciplinary skills as well as machine learning experts on our team to be able to give parents the type of knowledge that's packaged in a way, on a parent level, that they really can understand how to track, monitor their child's growth and development. But also, if they're falling behind, or even if they're ahead, be able to enhance their development through daily activities that are tailored and customized to each individual's unique developmental trajectory. And so, we've come up with what's called developmental biomarkers, similar to what you know as height and weight charts, to really measure and monitor a child's progress versus peers. On the physical side, we're doing that across all of those developmental domains and being able to make those conversations, and insights, and visits with the doctor a lot more comprehensive in scope, including video-based data, where we kind of isolate the milestones. We call it smart detection, really show the parents what those milestones are happening. Parents know a lot about walking, talking, sitting, rolling over, but there's over 400 milestones that happen in the first five years of life. And so, being able to kind of understand pincer grip, you know, picking up a cheerio or looking when you call their name those are really big milestones that are very significant when it comes to determining where that child stands relative to their peers. So, yeah, that's a little how it works at a high level. WILL: Yeah. Wow. I want to go back and tell you this just so that...I try to whenever I think of something, especially positive, I just try to tell people. And so, like, your inspiration of how you dealt with your child's passing away and everything...because I think the statistics and what I've heard is most people hit a downward spiral. Most marriages don't make it. So, it's very inspiring to hear that you grieved and you worked through the process. So, I just want you to know that, like, that's super, even for me, that's super inspiring to know that that is even possible in that situation. So, I just want you to know that. HANS: Yeah. And I'm glad that you brought up that point. You're absolutely correct. I think over 50% of couples do get divorced after a death of a child. And a lot of times, it's not the event itself. Certainly, losing a child is very, very painful. But the cause of that separation is really the differences in the way that each other grieve, you know, the spouses grieve. And that's something that, honestly, you don't learn until you're going through it. And so, what we did was, just like other things in our life, we were very intentional about it and really sought out as much help and support through books. Books were fantastic, also grieving groups. There's a lot of great different grieving groups out there to really understand that, hey, you're not necessarily alone. Certainly, the pain of losing a child is definitely, in my opinion, the hardest thing that anyone can go through. But in terms of being able to empathize and even commiserate, but even to hear other people's stories, you start to learn, you know, what that journey looks like five years, ten years, 20 years down the road. But you also, you know, one of the things that I say is there's no right way to grieve at all. You can't tell someone how to grieve. But there is a wrong way to grieve. And I know that sounds like an oxymoron. But the wrong way to grieve is not doing it at all. And that's usually where we saw a lot of people kind of turn to negative addiction, or self-inflicted behaviors, or a lot of other things where they try to bottle it up, put it away, lock it in the closet and not think about it, you know, maybe bury their heads in work or any other kinds of addictions. That's something we learned very, very early on that we try to be conscientious of and try to really steer clear from. But, again, it's a very individually unique path, and I'm definitely not an expert at all, but have certainly learned, you know, tenfold what I didn't know about grief beforehand. And so, you really don't know grief until you actually go through it. In terms of being able to kind of parlay that into motivation to help others...and really, for me, that's my North star is really helping others, if that's helping detect diagnosis, or even, you know, just smiling to the person on the street, you know, that's what really gives me a lot of fulfillment. And so, in terms of that motivation, where does that come from, and how do you actually take that grief and transcend that into something productive like that? The only thing I can actually say to all the parents that are listening out there it's akin to when you hold your firstborn, especially when you become a new parent. And you have that magical feeling where you're holding that small, little infant in your arms. And you have this great burden of responsibility as well. And you start thinking to yourself, man, now it's not just my life that I'm in charge of. I'm in charge of this little human being's life, who you have to do everything for them. And so, that inspiration to be the better parent or better person that you feel as a new parent is only correlated, I would describe, to actually losing a child where that same feeling is, I would say, magnified times 3. And that's, you know, for me, I know my daughter's looking down on us, and I know that she's behind a lot of things that I'm doing, but I'm certainly inspired in a whole 'nother way apart from being just a parent. WILL: Yeah, definitely. You said something that really caught my attention. Like, it was around how when you're holding your child, like, you're responsible for your child. I have a background in sports medicine, spent four years doing it. I still have no idea a lot of medical history when it comes to a kid. I feel like majority of the items that you're supposed to be looking for or even thinking about is totally different with a kid. I don't know how to say this, but, like, the healthcare, the more that I have my kids, I'm seeing that there's different sides of healthcare. So, we moved from North Carolina. Our first pediatrician we loved. Every time we had an appointment, probably spent 30 to 40 minutes just talking us through, hanging out with our kids, asking questions. You know, they always gave us this list beforehand to say, "Hey, look out for these things. When you come in the office, we're going to ask you, 'Have you noticed it, or how are they doing with that?'" And then, we moved to South Florida, and it's been totally different. Totally different. We had to fire one pediatrician because it wasn't the same care. The pediatrician we're at now is a lot better, but it's nowhere near what North Carolina was. And so, there's a lot of times that we're questioning ourselves. It's like, what does the development of our kid look like? My oldest he had a tongue tie where he couldn't touch the top of his mouth, and we didn't know how important that was to take care of. We finally got it taken care of, but he is delayed in speech because he couldn't touch the top of his mouth. So, whenever I saw that we were going to have this podcast interview, I was just so excited because this is a huge issue. As a parent of three, this is a huge issue because you just don't know. And even when I didn't have kids, the knowledge that I had of even being a parent, yeah, I didn't know anything [laughs], and it's just learning on the go. So, everything you're doing is just speaking to me, and you are helping people. It's needed out there. So, I am so excited that you're doing it. HANS: That warms my heart. Thank you, Will, for saying that because I didn't realize that you're actually from North Carolina. I'm from North Carolina myself from a little town called Gastonia. But when it comes to, you know, developmental health, it is the biggest gray area in all of pediatrics. And we know that pediatricians just don't have the time. That's a very big burden. In addition, when it comes to specialists, we're talking about, you know, autism, for instance. You know, they have to be diagnosed through developmental-behavioral pediatricians or a child psychologist, and there's just a very big dearth of them. There's long waiting lines. It could be 12 to 18 months to actually get in front of them and get that evaluation, and then another 6 to 9 months to actually get therapy. And by that time, there's a lot of time lost, which is absolutely precious when it comes to the child. 90% of your child's brain, actually, develops by the time they're three years old. Another stat that parents actually don't know is that there's centers called Early Intervention Service Centers across the U.S. There's over 4,000. Their specific remit, their mandate is actually to go out and find children in their community, in the region, that do have developmental delay. And, you know, it's a very labor-intensive process to do that. I've actually done it here with my fourth child here in San Diego. They send out two therapists. They come in, do an evaluation, talk to the parent, see how they're doing, jot down some notes, you know, it's at least an hour of their time, driving included, but it's a very kind of manually intensive process. And what we can do is really be able to preempt that and really give parents the fidelity and advocacy to speak on behalf of their child. And I would say that's the number one thing that our parents say is they thought there was a concern. They knew there was some kind of gray area. And we know that there's a lot of stigma and denial around delays. What we're trying to do is actually lower that barrier so they have the wherewithal to actually have that conversation with their pediatrician. And simply to ask that question from a clinical-based evidence perspective, you know, that could do wonders, you know. If a kid's not speaking by the time they're two years old, if they're not saying a word, that's a big red flag. And a lot of the de facto status quo, a pediatrician will say, "Well, let's just wait till the next visit because every single child develops uniquely," which they do. But their next visit is at three years old, 12 months later. And that's time that's lost in that process. Apart from the evaluation, they can actually do at-home interventions. There are a lot of different activities and modules that we have for parents to actually be more proactive in enhancing that child's development along the way. And so, yeah, at the end of the day, we're committed to making sure parents have those tools and knowledge that's necessary. MID-ROLL AD: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build, and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Liftoff brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow today. Get in touch at thoughtbot.com/liftoff. VICTORIA: As a head of product, how do you approach the design for the app you're building given just how complex it is? And you said there's 400 milestones in the first 5 years to track. How do you prioritize which one to do first? [chuckles] HANS: Yeah, that's a good question. And now I get into the nitty-gritty. But there's certainly been a lot of focus, and it really starts with the users, and so that's both parents as well as pediatricians. And so, personally, I've visited, even in six months, I've visited over 70 different pediatric clinics here in Southern California as well as New York and Washington State, you know, really talking to pediatricians and really understanding what would actually help, you know, make it a lot more useful and helpful for them in their own day to day. You know, the biggest capacity constraint is really their time crunch. And so, can you get me those answers immediately? And they tell us they don't want to go to some other system. So, we've integrated directly into almost a hundred different EHRs (Electronic Health Records) across the board to the point where parents can actually just search for their pediatrician on our app and then be able to send their data directly to the pediatrician. Because when it comes down to trust, in healthcare, it's all about trust. Parents really trust the pediatrician the most at the end of the day, and so getting them on board and making sure that they're the biggest advocates for our platform will speak a lot more than just having our app in the App Store, which it is. But in terms of the parent's side, we want them to have a really great and engaging experience where they're getting a lot of joy. We could talk about this concept called burst of joy from watching their child grow and develop. And so, there's a fine line between creating too much anxiety versus giving more information. And when it comes to development [chuckles], there's a very fine line on that. But being able to kind of track those milestones on a continuous basis, not just that point in time, you know, that one time, you know, every three, six months that they're in the doctor's office, but even on a weekly basis, kind of seeing that growth that actually happens organically on a day-to-day basis is a huge part of the parent experience. Being able to kind of look and see what that is, why it's important, and oh, by the way, if the child's not doing that, here's some activities that you can do to really help them excel and get to the next level, you know, that's the type of thought process. And if you do have concerns, here's resources. We put together these 4,000 early intervention centers, where on the web, you have to go to each individual website. We basically just took all the information and just put it right there in one place where it's just a zip code lookup functionality. And so, a lot of those types of approaches is really great. I think, in the future, being able to connect directly with therapists and providers might be another step because we know that the gaps in care is really one of the most critical problem. Right now, we're trying to solve that through that parent-led approach. But even reducing that 6 to 9 months down to 1 or 2 weeks, I think, that's actually a possibility. VICTORIA: I love how you described it as what you're going for is a burst of joy and that you want to focus on having it be a joyful experience for parents. And it should be because I have also seen the anxiety part and how anxiety-inducing it can be when you're trying to keep track of all these different milestones. And, like you said, you have a handout from your doctor, or maybe you're looking up things on TikTok or Instagram [laughs]. How do you work those emotions into your design? Can you say a little bit more about that? HANS: Yeah. So, for example, after completing an activity...so, we have all these daily activities that you can do. We start the app. We've got inspired from Headspace in terms of what they ask you to do. Here's 2 or 3 things that you can do with your child. We start with an activity, and it takes nothing more than items lying around in your home. We believe in this concept of serve and return approach when it comes to that parent-child interaction. And so, you have those materials. You have the 10, 15 minutes that you have with your child. You're asking yourself, like, "What can I actually do to really stimulate development?" We want to meet them where they are. So, we have even at bath time, or on the playground, or in a car ride, or while you're doing laundry, sorting socks, right? Any place in time could actually have that really great approach. And then, after completion of the activity, we have this kind of pop-up that it's almost like an accomplishment, like, we did it as a joint team, as a joint effort, with a little celebration and kind of that approach. And then, also, when you're checking off milestones, and when you check off frequently on our app, there's little hearts that kind of come out of the button to celebrate this little...we call them smilestones, but it's a small part of that celebration that happens day in, day out. VICTORIA: I'm definitely going to say smilestones to my team next week. That's how we're going to rebrand our milestones as as well. I love it. HANS: Yeah. I don't think that's copyrighted, so go ahead. Take it away. WILL: What is your, I'll use that, smilestone for the next six months or, you know, next year? What's in the future? I saw on your website you're incorporating some AI into it. So, can you talk about that and anything else that you have coming up? HANS: Yeah. So, one of the places where we're really, you know, focusing on is really getting objective about the data. So, we want to take a lot of the subjectivity, a lot of the guesswork, a lot of the recall bias, even misinterpretation of milestones, as well as language barriers of milestones. And so, just really being able to not just have the parent kind of fill out, you know, the checklist, but also, being able to incorporate the videos component as well. And so, being able to upload any kind of video of the child at the dinner table, playing with friends in the playground, playing at home in the living room. Parents have tons of these videos, right? We're able to kind of spot and detect where those milestones are actually taking place. And so, we can isolate that three to five seconds of, here's where their child's doing the pincer grip, which is basically picking up a cheerio between your forefinger and thumb, and really being able to kind of give that validation and confirmation to the parents so they can actually say, "Oh, wow, my child actually did this new thing that I actually didn't even know about." But on top of that, being able to turn that into a highlight reel, you know, similar to like SportsCenter highlight reel. Like, you're taking all of those different clips and turn that into maybe a 60-second highlight reel of everything that happened that transpired in between the last visit. So, when you talk about going from, like, a 12-month visit to an 18-month visit, here's all the things, in 60 seconds, that the kid's been doing to give a lot more comprehensive evaluation for their pediatrician to make better decisions at the end of the day. Again, we are clinical decision support. We're not making the diagnosis ourselves. We leave that to the providers. But what we believe in our ethos is really giving all that information and packaging it up so that those decisions can be much better made at the end of the day. So, that's one use case of AI. But there's still a human element to it right now, but we want to be able to kind of transpire that to a fully autonomous computer vision, which, when you look at generative AI, understanding videos and being able to detect that when you think about all of the different angles, shapes, lighting, et cetera, it's the, I would say, the last frontier of being able to kind of get data insights out of videos itself. It's very easy to go from having a text prompt and generating a video from it. It's much harder to take a video and spitting back out what we have as milestones. So, that's one part. And the other is developmental biomarkers which is another...what we think is groundbreaking in the pediatric space. VICTORIA: Can you explain what developmental biomarker is? HANS: Yeah. So, it's a concept similar to what we know as the height and weight chart. And when I first became a parent, a lot of times you're speaking with other new parents, and you are, you know, on the playground, right? And they're saying that "Hey, my kid is on the 90th percentile in height or weight," or "Hey, they're 80th percentile on head circumference," because that's literally, like, as a new parent, like, that's the only basis you have other than their sleep habits, which, Will, I know you can probably attest to most parents track a lot. But similar to that, like, in terms of, you know, how developmental tracking is done right now, the status quo is using developmental screeners. And so, that's, again, point in time, static approach while you're in the well-child visit. But the problem with developmental screeners is it has what's called a low sensitivity and specificity in terms of really over-detecting or over-failing basically one side of the distribution. So, it's typically 40% to 50% of kids would fail a screener when, in reality it should be around 20 to 25. To really get more granular and very objective about understanding a child's developmental trend, one has to kind of be able to, we believe, understand both the right and the left side of the distribution and being able to understand, hey, is this child actually tracking ahead of the curve or behind the curve relative to everyone else? And so, we've developed an algorithm. It's fairly complex, but it uses a lot of the underlying data sets that we have to kind of give a much more high-fidelity picture of, hey, your child's in the 60th to 65th percentile. At the end of the day, we want to be able to identify delays. And so, anything below 20% or so, you know, parents should be more informed about that and looking at it on a domain-by-domain specific level. So, it's very common for a kid to be accelerated on 3 of the four domains, but maybe they're behind on speech. And so, what does the doctor do with that? If they're at 15th percentile in speech, they can then come in the clinic and say, "Hey, I see the screening results, but I also see this Pathfinder report. Let's spend the next 5 to 10 minutes actually seeing how you verbalize and how you're able to speak and express yourself." So, that's really what we're talking about when it comes to developmental biomarkers. VICTORIA: Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. I think I knew what you were referring to, but I wanted to make sure [laughs], but that makes sense. So, it's like whatever the data that helps the parent identify where there might be an area that some intervention or some more time might need to be taken to help move them forward. HANS: It is on a longitudinal basis, which, if you're in healthcare, you know longitudinal trend. Really understanding what that looks like is hugely important versus point in time. And so, we're able to see it not just at the sixth month and nine month, but every day in between as well. And we believe, you know, the early results are kind of showing that we're able to even preempt what those potential red flags will look like, or a failed screening result will look like at an earlier rate as well. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. I'm curious if you have other statistics like that or some results from the first year, almost two years of data that you have now, on how people are interacting with the app. And what kind of outcomes are you getting? HANS: Yeah, as I said, you know, the biggest outcome is really being able to give parents a really highly objective look at how their children are developing, and so giving them the level of advocacy to speak on the child's behalf with clinical evidence. If you look at our testimonials, that's probably the number one thing. We have different personas for different types of moms. But there's some moms that are the Nervous Nellies, the ones that are concerned about every single cut, scrape, and bruise. There's also the Inkling Ingrids, the ones that think there might be something there, but they're not necessarily sure. But then there's also the Ambitious Amandas, these types of moms that want to put their kids in every single type of advanced activity, right? Music classes, Legos, et cetera. And then, the Brand New Brendas, the ones that are brand new to parenting and want to know, learn, explore, and track the child's development. So yeah, there's different things for different types of personas that we have. By and large, it's really giving that information in a very parent-friendly way so it's not overwhelming them with too much anxiety or, you know, going over their heads as a lot of times medical jargon does as well. VICTORIA: Wow. That's great. Thank you for sharing that. And I wonder, actually, Hans, I wanted to ask you a question about bias and about bias in AI and in health tech. And how do you approach that in Pathfinder and making sure that everyone's getting equitable health incomes and recommendations within the app? HANS: Yeah, bias and accessibility are two big topics that we think a lot about, you know, first of all, on the underlying data bias, you know, that could present itself. Right now, our app is available on App Store and Play Store. We have over 50,000 parents, you know, still small but growing in about 120 different countries, mainly English-speaking ones, because right now the app is completely in English. That's about to change. We're about to go multilingual, starting with Spanish, which is definitely the biggest request. But so, when it comes to, like, being able to compare across different groups and subsets, you know, we do believe we have a fairly heterogeneous group. Only about 50% of our users are actually here in the U.S. In terms of the actual milestones themselves, there could be, you know, some differences in cultures. Something like "Eats with a fork" is a milestone that happens, I think, around two or three years old. You know, in cultures like India, for instance, they usually eat with their hands for a lot of time. So, that would be obviously a difference. That milestone wouldn't necessarily apply as much. But then when you talk about accessibility, one of the things that we screen for in our standard screening that we do have, and I forgot to mention this earlier up front, we almost have, like, a four-legged stool, if you will, in terms of the underlying data that we capture. One is standard screeners because that is status quo. That is reimbursed on the pediatrician's side. And the biggest value prop to pediatricians to adopt our platform is, hey, we can help you get towards 100% developmental screen adherence, which right now it's only about 60 or even less than 50% across the board. So, that's a reimbursable event. So, that's layer 1. Layer 2 is parent concerns, caption that in a good, valid way, and then continuous milestone tracking. And then, finally, the videos as well. So, certainly, some parents don't submit videos for privacy reasons, which is okay. We still have all of the other 3. So, going back to social determinants of health and health equity, that's one of the things that we screen for as well, knowing that the more vulnerable populations and minorities, lower socioeconomic classes, actually do have a higher prevalence of delays. And so, we want to be able to be accessible to them as much as we can but also, raise those things to the surface when it comes to getting those answers to pediatricians. There's another big movement happening called Adverse Childhood Experiences screeners (ACEs) that really looks at, you know, how the child's been developing and what their background, their environment actually looks like. So, looking at those questions of, is that child being raised in an environment of neglect, or abuse, or a broken home, or drug addictions in the home? Those can really have an effect, not just on the early part of life, but even later in life when you talk about physical as well as mental well-being. And so, just having that awareness and that insight into how that child's been developing is really important on the background side. And so, at the end of the day, when we're talking about who actually holds the bag, if you will, in terms of this big gap that we're trying to solve, at the end of the day, it's really the government. If the child does have a delay that doesn't get addressed at an early age, doesn't get, you know, therapy, a lot of times, it leads on to run-on consequences, whether that's mental issues or maybe not being able to be self-sufficient, independent, job seeking, tax-paying, delinquencies. There's a lot of different ramifications from things that happen at a very early age. That's where we believe in partnership with Medicaid through clinics like Federal Qualified Health Centers that focus on the Medicaid population, which 38% of all kids fall under, those are ideal partners for us. It's a longer, harder slog and a long road. But we believe there's a lot that we can offer at that level as well as more ACO and value-based payer type of model. VICTORIA: Oh, wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Hans, for coming on and sharing your story with us. Do you have anything that you would like to promote? HANS: I know we didn't get a chance to speak about it, but the children's book I've written very near and dear to my heart is called Baby Aviva, Orangutan Diva. You can get that out on Amazon, anywhere. But it's A-V-I-V-A. If you're a parent and if you have a kid under the age of five, feel free to check out our app called Pathfinder Health. And Pathfinder is just one word on the App Store and Play Store. But thank you, Will, and thank you, Victoria. WILL: Thank you. It was great talking to you. And I'm going to go download the app. HANS: Absolutely. Thanks so much. And I really appreciate it. WILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry. VICTORIA: And you can find me on X or Twitter [laughs] @victori_ousg or on Mastodon @thoughtbotsocial@vguido. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.  AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.

Host Victoria Guido connects with Francis Lacoste, a seasoned VPE and CTO coach. He details his unexpected journey from an aspiring cinema professional to a key player in the tech industry after honing his remote-first work culture skills. He delves into his move toward coaching, emphasizing his commitment to developing engineering management talent and his dedication to building strong engineering cultures and leadership within organizations. Francis discusses the psychological aspects of leadership, such as the importance of psychological safety and the role of trust in organizational effectiveness. He also reflects on the nuances of transitioning from hands-on technical work to strategic leadership roles, emphasizing the critical soft skills necessary for effective leadership. Follow Francis Lacoste on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/francislacoste/). Visit his website: thevpe.coach (https://thevpe.coach/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Francis Lacoste, VPE and CTO coach. Francis, thank you for joining me. FRANCIS: My pleasure, Victoria. Thanks for having me. VICTORIA: Thank you. Well, it's a beautiful spring day today. And just to get us started and warmed up a little bit, I wonder if you could tell me about what is your favorite winter activity? FRANCIS: Cross-country skiing without doubt. I did a lot of alpine skiing when I was a kid. Could still do it, but really I found alpine, just skiing through parks and the calm of winter, is a very relaxing activity. And I use that as basically my workout. There's a park nearby the school of one of my kids. So, I drop him at school, then go do a few laps in the park near the river. It's beautiful. Unfortunately, this was a winter without almost any snow. So, I could only do four outings this year, which I need to do other workouts because that's not enough. VICTORIA: Wow. That's really cool. How long have you been cross-country skiing then? FRANCIS: I started doing that as a kid, but regularly only in the past, I'd say, four or five years. I bought some skis. Before that, I would only rent. So, that allowed me to do it more regularly. VICTORIA: That's interesting. I am cross-country ski curious because I've tried regular skiing the last couple of years, and I've found that it's way too fast for me personally [laughter]. So, I'm not sure. I think I might like it. FRANCIS: Yeah. I mean, cross-country skiing is more like jogging in a way because it's very cardio, unlike Alpine skiing, downhill skiing, where if you don't work hard, you can go very fast. You know, if you want to go slow, it's actually...you have to put in a lot of effort in downhill skiing, but cross-country skiing it's kind of like jogging. You're gliding on the snow and getting some momentum. I mean, if it's not flat, then it becomes a little bit more fiddly, but I do mostly flat courses because if you have, like, some slope, then it requires other technique, and it's actually harder to control than Alpine skiing. VICTORIA: Ooh. Well, I was going to say it sounds like my type of thing until the last part you said there [laughter]. I was like, oh, that's the part that I'm scared of. Well, I don't know, I don't get a chance to go skiing too often down here in San Diego, but I should go up to, like, Mammoth Mountain and things like that more often. But we got a ton of snow this year, so you'll have to come West and visit us sometime. FRANCIS: [laughs] VICTORIA: Well, wonderful. Well, Francis, tell me a little bit about your background and what led you to your coaching career here. FRANCIS: I've been working in software forever, basically. Fun fact: I wanted to go into cinema, and that's what I studied at university, but kept ending up in programming job basically, or programming endeavors. And this was, like, the beginning of the commercial internet, end of the '90s, and was very much into free software and open source, and that's how I got started as a software engineer. And eventually ended up at Canonical, which is still is; they celebrated their 20 years this year; the company that founded Ubuntu, the Linux distribution, which was very popular and still is to a large extent. That's where I kind of left, transitioned into software management, engineering management over there. I didn't know at all what I was getting into. I was on parental leave at the time, and my boss left a message to say, "Hey, we're thinking of creating teams, and we think you'd be a good fit for one of the team lead. Let me know what you think." And I said, "Yes," really, not knowing that this was a totally different job. Fortunately, I got good mentors and found out I enjoyed that. And then, after Canonical, I moved to Heroku, which I joined to help build a remote culture there because, at that point, the company was hiring more and more remote. And Canonical was a remote-first company. I mean, I've been working remotely for 25 years, almost, at this point. So, kind of had a good experience there, and at Heroku, really that, I kind of discovered coaching. I joined as a director, and then a few years in, there was a reorg. I ended up again with a single team to manage, which was, okay, I can do that. That's fine. Fortunately, I mean, by coincidence or luck, there was a guy on the team who wanted to become an engineering manager. He was already running most of the ceremonies of the team. And I said, "Oh, great [laughs]. What I love about being a director is growing engineering managers. So, I'm going to mentor you and help you de facto run the team, do the things that you're not in a position to do yet but eventually will transition that," which left me with a lot of time. My VP was supportive of this, and we had a lot of new first-time engineering managers at the time, so we didn't have a lot of people who had experience as engineering managers. So, I offered to mentor and coach internally. A lot of people took me up on that offer. So, I ended up doing that and eventually ended up with, like, running a large org again, but continuing doing that part. And this was the part that I kind of enjoyed the most [laughs] in my role, in a way. So, I think it was 2019. So, five years ago, I was running seven teams. It was the largest department, engineering department at Heroku. Things were fine, you know. But when I was stopping for summer vacation or winter vacation, I realized that the day before going back to work, I was kind of not looking forward to it. That was kind of a sign. And it was very subtle because, like, a week later, everything was fine again, you know, loved the people and the company and what we were doing. But there was something, like, deep down, I was not, like, fulfilled by the role. I did some soul searching and then realized, okay, what I really like is not running the organization but more, like, the mentoring, the nurturing of the culture. I was also doing a training at the time, working with groups, group facilitation, and so, like, working more, like, with advising leadership teams, that sort of thing. I went to my VP and told him, "Look, I realize this is not fulfilling for me. Don't freak out. I'm not quitting [laughs] yet, you know. I can do this for a year again. But if there is...then my next role is going to be consulting around engineering culture. But if there's a role, you know, where an organization is large, more aligned with this, I'd be happy to continue working at Heroku and Salesforce," because Heroku was part of Salesforce ever since I joined. So, he and the SVP were kind of thrilled by that idea. So, I became Chief of Staff for Heroku and start working with the whole engineering exec team. And that was great for six months. And then Salesforce did a big reorg, and I ended up...all the exec left, and Heroku engineering was kind of split apart and refactored into the normal Salesforce engineering. Fortunately for me, the EVP I had a relationship with him, and he knew what I was doing. And he took my role and said, like, "We like what you did with Heroku culture. Can you help us do that across all of platform?" So, I ended up doing culture work for one of the largest departments at Salesforce. At the time, it was 1,500 people. It was very scary in a way, in the sense that I knew this was the next step, you know, after Heroku, but I went from 150 engineers to 150. There were more engineering managers in platform than there were engineers at Heroku. So it was kind of, okay, I need to rethink my strategy and stuff like that. And then, that lasted until last year, and then there were the layoffs at Salesforce, and culture is one of the first thing that is usually cut. So, I got cut, which was fine because I kind of knew, okay, my next step after Salesforce was consulting around engineering culture. So, that's when I launched my business and decided to focus on coaching because that's what I had continued doing in the meantime and was finding the most fulfilling. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. Thank you for sharing all of that context. I have a lot of questions to follow up, but to recap a little bit, it sounds like you started as a software developer. You worked your way up to engineering management and then focused on coaching other leaders throughout your career. And now you're doing that as part of your own business. So, you founded your own company to just do that, which sounds super interesting. FRANCIS: Exactly. Yes. So, my focus is on I coach VP of engineering and CTOs at scaling startup. Like I said, I started coaching engineering managers at Heroku, and a lot of them eventually became directors. And at a large organization like Salesforce, after director, the next steps up there are a few opportunities in a way. So, you need to be at the right place at the right time, but otherwise, there's not just a lot of opportunities. And meanwhile, they get hit every week by recruiters on LinkedIn say, "Hey, come join our startup as VP of engineering," or CTO and things like that. A lot of them actually jumped ship to such role, and I continue coaching them in that capacity. And that was really just rewarding seeing the impact that these people have. So, last year when I started, I had a question around, okay, what is my offer? I want great engineering culture, but what is the offer? Then, looking at what I did, it's kind of, oh, well, this work I've done with all of these folks, this was always pleasurable and fulfilling to me. And coaching is a known offering, so there's probably something there. So, this was kind of what's kind of the business aspect of it. And the mission aspect is that...and I do other things than coaching. I do workshops and things like that. But my experience is that unless the executive, you know, the founder, the top leaders are not committed and bought in in creating a great culture and personally working on themselves, because that's required, you can bring, like, workshops to the team. You can...great process in place. You can do a lot of great things, which has an impact, but then it's not built on solid ground in a way because at the first reorg or the first, like, change [inaudible 10:31], then all of this work becomes very shaky ground. So, to me, it was kind of, oh yes, I need to start with coaching the CTOs and VPs, and that will ensure that there's actually potential for a great culture there. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. So, yeah, the coaching part is the key part and, like, the culture is number one. So, if you were talking to a new CTO, what kind of questions would you ask them to kind of gauge where they're at with their engineering culture? FRANCIS: The first question I always ask is, well, do you have, like, principles or values around that? And it's surprising. I come from Salesforce, which is a value-driven company, and there's a lot of startups that [inaudible 11:11]. It's kind of the playbook, you know, defining your company values. But still, there's a lot of people who've done it or who've not done it or done it, but it's kind of more like an exercise, and it's not, like, integrated. So, really, this is where usually I start when we're looking at culture is kind of what are your values, and are these values enacted, you know, manifested in your organization? Are they part of the day-to-day decision-making, the hiring process, the performance evaluation? And not just that, you know, also, when you're designing something internally, we're putting in place, like, a code review process. Well, how is that related to our values or not? And this is something I was fortunate because Salesforce it's a huge corporation, but still, they're serious about values there. And it is used, and they are living their values, not perfectly, I mean, it's still humans, and it's still a business. But these day-to-day decision-making values are definitely taken care of, and it's not just words on the wall. VICTORIA: Yeah. I think the second part of what you said there is the hardest part, not just what are your values, but how do you use those values in your everyday decision-making? FRANCIS: Yes. Mid-Roll Ad: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what’s important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode. VICTORIA: I'm interested in what it takes to be a CTO and go from that startup mentality into starting to think about how you're going to scale this organization. Because what I see a lot of times a CTO in an early-stage startup is the main developer also [chuckles] and has built the whole app. So, how do you think about that? What kinds of things do you start to delve into after the values, and how a CTO can transition into that role, into the scaling and leading larger teams? FRANCIS: Yeah, no, you're totally spot on here, Victoria, because CTO is one of these...somebody asked me once why the VPE coach and not the CTO coach. And, to me, it was, well, actually, because CTO is one of these multi-dimensional variable scope word, which means a very different thing. And often, at a startup, the CTO is basically the founding engineer. He is the person writing the code, building the product. And that's good. But as you grow, then the role change, and many of my clients are technical co-founders who actually want to scale with the org and not become, like, a chief architect, even though many of them will still keep the CTO title. And then, they will hire a VPE to actually build the organization and do what the role of the CTO is from my perspective. The CTO role, if we define it, it's really you're part of the exec team, and the exec team whose responsibility is to align technology to the business objective. So, can we use technology or build a product to actually deliver our product objective? So, it's kind of a strategic role, and at some point, you don't necessarily run the day-to-day of the org. But at a transition point, you need to focus on the org management and the org building. So, I often say, one, my ideal clients are these technical co-founders who want to switch from a product builder identity to a product development organization builder identity. That's the transition point. And then, it requires all the leadership skills somebody who leads an org needs, which are, like, being able to...empathy being one of the most important one, you know, being able to understand people, to inspire them, everything like that [chuckles]. VICTORIA: Yeah. All the easy stuff, right [chuckles]? FRANCIS: Yes [chuckles]. Yeah. It's called the soft skills [laughs], but we all know that it's not because they're easy [laughs]. VICTORIA: Right. Yeah, they're hard. FRANCIS: It's actually more because they are nebulous, which is very hard for somebody who's technically minded, you know, people; it's not like there's an on and an off, and logic gate is not what this is about. VICTORIA: Yeah. And, mentally, it must be challenging for someone who has poured their heart and soul, and time, and energy into this product to then turn around and say, "Okay, I'm going to let a bunch of other people get in there and start doing stuff [laughs]. FRANCIS: Yes. VICTORIA: And take it over. And, like, I'll just be involved from..." like, you know, when you say executive position, what does that mean? Is it, like, budget and strategy? And, you know, sometimes it's really hard to be effective in those conversations, and it really becomes about educating other people in your organization more than anything else. FRANCIS: Yeah, I mean, a lot of it is about budget and that sort of thing. To me, it's more like boring, and it's not the most critical part. I mean, your role as a leader is really to set the context for the people to execute them, you know, so that they have, like, the clarity of direction but not the control of the execution. You need to let go of control. You need to move much more on the influence side than the controlling side, especially the larger the org gets. You probably have managed folks. You need to lose the idea that you're in charge and you're making the decisions because otherwise, you get frustrated very fast. VICTORIA: Yeah. How would you refer to that? Is that like the inner game, like a mental game you have to shift into? FRANCIS: Yeah, I mean, to me, the inner game is all about the self-awareness, emotional intelligence, developing these capacities, which enables you to be a more effective leader. It's not just about being an effective leader. It's also about feeling good about your role and who you are in this context, you know, and that's the inner game. What happens externally, how you act, is a reflection of these inner capacities in a way. VICTORIA: That makes sense. And if you want to create a culture of psychological safety, you may want to start within yourself, right? FRANCIS: Yes. I mean, psychological safety it's one of the essential dimension of team performance. There's the Aristotle study that was done at Google, which they analyzed Agile teams and, okay, what is the most important factor in team performance? And what they came out with is, oh, it's this thing called psychological safety. Psychological safety as a name, as a concept was kind of coined by Amy C. Edmondson. I'm not fond of the term because I think it leads to some. I mean, it's a technical term, but because psychological safety and safety has a lot of, like, day-to-day meaning, it skews a little bit what it is. I much prefer...this is the same thing what Patrick Lencioni was calling out as the first dysfunction of a team, you know, the lack of trust. And it was defining trust as vulnerability-based trust, which goes with the technical definition of psychological safety, which is the perception that the team is safe for interpersonal risk-taking. So, it's kind of, A, here I'm not sure how this is going to go. This is risky a bit. I'm being vulnerable. But I perceive that the team...I trust that the team will receive that respectfully in a way. And that connection to the inner game is...as a manager, if you want to create psychological safety, you need to lead by example, which means you need to show that you can be vulnerable, you know, that you trust the team that they're not going to hang you to dry if you show a weakness or say, "Hey, I don't know here," or things like that. And this is very hard as leaders because we want to instill confidence and things like that. But that often comes with, like, masking our vulnerabilities, and that's actually detrimental in fostering psychological safety. VICTORIA: Yeah, we actually did a facilitated exercise on psychological safety at thoughtbot last year. And I brought up an idea I'd had where I wanted to see if I could say something obviously wrong on my team calls [laughter] and see if they would correct me. Like, are they going to correct me? Do they feel safe enough to, like, give me that correction? Like, you know. And I can say that my team does feel comfortable [laughs]. They crack me a lot [laughs]. FRANCIS: Awesome. VICTORIA: But that's great. You hire people who hopefully have, you know, expertise and security that might be greater and deeper or more recent, and yours that you have to do that. So, that's really interesting. Talking about all the reports, it reminds me as well as, like, the DevOps research, DORA report, where they say that security as well, like, the biggest indicator for a high-security organization is trust as well. So, it's really interesting to think about, like, how you as a CTO create that culture and create that culture of, like, trust, and compassion, and empathy, and vulnerability, and that will lead to performance, which may seem counterintuitive to some people. FRANCIS: Yeah. So, I'm kind of a model collector. I'm someone who loves different models. They're all good, you know, and that's the problem [laughs]. All models are good, but none of them actually exhaust reality. In one model, in a way, it's kind of simplification of The Five Dysfunctions Model and others. But there's two dimensions that are really important for team performance. So, the first one is kind of the, to me, this is kind of the ground, the horizontal layer. It's kind of how people relate to each other, so psychological safety. And then the vertical dimension is the clarity of the North Star and the mission. We all can relate to each other as human beings and trust each other, but we're here to do some work. And what is this work about? What is unifying us that we're here and not someplace else? And that's kind of the clarity of what we're trying to achieve, the North Star or the mission. And those two create the space for high performance because if you just have psychological safety but there is no clear mission and accountability to that mission...once you know clearly what we're here to do, we can hold each other accountable to delivering on it. And if you're the only person holding accountability as the leader, then you're far from high performance. Really, you get high performance when everyone is in it together. That's given by the clarity of what is it we're trying to achieve. And if that's not there, you have, like, a great group of people, but there's no direction. And if you have only direction and, you know, a mission, then you can get, like, in a very authoritarian thing, which, I mean, everybody's aligned to do something, but everybody is kind of afraid and not showing up fully. And you're not getting the full engagement of everyone, so there's a lot of heat and friction that's being lost. VICTORIA: Yeah. And you mentioned accountability. And I'm curious, what does that look like in your experience, like, holding each other accountable? What kind of ways can leaders do that? FRANCIS: To me, the most interesting question is how can leaders foster shared accountability on the team, mutual accountability? And how it looks like...and I'm a big fan of...it's kind of the virtuous cycle between team agreements and retrospective, you know, in agile, another word that can mean many things. But this idea of continuous improvement after every sprint or regularly the team gets together and reflects on what went well. What could we improve? Those sorts of things. This is kind of the collective space of where the teams exist as a team, you know, really kind of where there's something very important in the retrospective where we're showing up as a team and reflecting on the team. And what I like to do is use that moment to not only, like, how do we reflect about the first layer of, okay, we missed that feature or that sort of thing but also reflect on the norms of the team, which can be written down ideally, you know? And this is a team agreement part. And the output of the retrospective is modification or experiment around "Oh, we could try this or this other way of working." But the idea of team agreements is this is how we are holding each other accountable, too. And how it manifests in practice is you know you have, like, mutual accountability when it's not only the manager that is reminding people of, hey, this is our norm, you know? So, for instance, I don't know, example could be trivial, but still, you know, we said we need two reviews to commit code, and then, like, somebody didn't do it or something like that. The manager could go and say, "Hey, you forgot about this agreement." But really, where you want to be is that it's other people on the team say, "Hey, Joe, why didn't you ask me for a review here? You know, I could have been that second review you needed," or things like that. And that really means that everyone is kind of bought in on the norms. So, that, to me, what is mutual accountability about is when it feels confident enough to challenge each other and remind themselves accountable to the team norms. VICTORIA: Right. And facilitating that development of the team norms together, too, right? FRANCIS: Yes. VICTORIA: Wonderful. Do you have any questions for me? FRANCIS: So, I'm interested to hear about your story this time where you got called out [laughs]. You said okay...I love the test you did, you know. I'm going to say something here that I know is wrong and see if people feel confident enough to...so, how did you achieve that, you know? VICTORIA: Lucky for me, I don't have to test it because it just happens naturally [laughs]. So, in my role of managing director, I have to talk to clients, come up with estimates for the work, when will the work start, who is the right person for the team. And so, sometimes, you know, I'll put the proposal together, and I'll hear my team members say like, "Why are we doing it like this [laughs]? Do it this way instead. Like, I think this person's a better fit." And, you know, when I see them engaging in the proposal and not just saying, "Yeah, it looks good," that means that we're doing a good job, and they're actually reading it, and processing it, and thinking about the client's requirements and yeah, giving me real feedback. That's what I want, so that's what I like to see. And, you know, when I do my one on ones with my team members, at least every three months, I try to do a retrospective style where I ask, "In my role, what should I continue doing that's helping you? What should I start doing, and then what should I stop?" I do it in that order specifically, so we start with the nice stuff [laughs]. But yeah, and then I make sure that when I give that feedback back to my team members, I say like, "Make sure you feel like you can speak up and share and hear your voice. Like, it's maybe more of a start than a stop or a continue. Just try to, like, get your feedback in there. I want to hear from you. I want to make sure you feel comfortable giving feedback to me also." FRANCIS: Right. So, that's kind of demonstrating listening and enacting a feedback culture because you are asking for feedback and listening to it, and that fosters trust, you know, vulnerability-based trust. So, anything else you did that helped create that psychological safety on your team? VICTORIA: It's really important how you react to things in meetings, like in retrospectives, especially if, like, you're trying to...like, in my role a lot, I'm trying to represent the business and talk to my team about what's the strategy and what we're trying to do. Like, if someone asks you a question like, "Well, why are we doing it right that way? Like, I think that's, like, what [laughs], you know, like, what are you guys even thinking? That seems random." I think the emotional work, like you mentioned, like, taking a breath myself and, like, calming down. Because, like, part of me could get really annoyed and be like, "Well, we've been talking about this for three months, guys [chuckles], you know, like, this isn't new information." But then, you know, thinking about it, like, you know, taking the time to calm your own emotions and put yourself in their shoes and think about, well, how much time have they really had to, like, look at any of this stuff? And, like, maybe they need it in a different format, or in a different way, or, like, written up somewhere else and not just, like, briefly covered in a call. So, opening yourself up to alternatives and staying curious about, well, what is this feeling behind? Like, what's really needed to clear? So, it's, again, coming back to listening and acting on it. So, maybe that's part of it. So, to create more psychological safety on the team is that part about managing your own emotions and not overreacting if somebody doesn't like your idea is a really important part of it. FRANCIS: Yes, so true. You said something very interesting there, which is how you react to things. And this is true, you know, you want to be graceful in your reaction and not react from a place of frustration or anger. There's the saying that psychological safety is fragile, you know, trust can be lost easily and easy to lose. And I think this is actually, while there is some truth to it, it's actually just partially true. From my perspective, when you have psychological safety, basically, there's an anti-fragile aspect to it in the sense that you self-heal. But to self-heal, you need to recognize the breakage and heal. So, I see the occasions where we want to be reacting gracefully listening to feedback. And then, somebody asks a question, like, say, "Why are we doing this?" You know, and then, well, because [laughs] and you answer, "Yes, well, because we've been talking for three months about this, you know, get to the page." If you stop there, yes, this is detrimental. I mean, people will say, "Oh, this was weird, and I'll think twice next time before asking that question." But if you are committed to psychological safety, you realize that, or somebody might make you realize that. And then, you can repair saying, "Hey. Hey, sorry. I messed up here. This is really not in line with our value of listening to feedback. I'm sorry. I'm under..." and that's the healing part, and that actually strengthen psychological safety more than it was. I mean, this is the idea of antifragility, you know, a bone breaks, and when it rebuilds, it rebuilds stronger because you've shown vulnerability and kind of, okay, yes, when they make a mistake, I can see that they are able to correct in the moment. And that's the safety part that I don't like, you know, the common day word meaning of safety that I feel is misleading is that it makes the thing...it seems very fragile. People walk on eggs. You know, we have this sentiment that, oh, I should be cautious about what I'm saying and things like that, where, actually, if you have a psychological safety culture, you can be a little bit more spontaneous and candid. And if you mess up, well, there's enough safety that you can repair and recover from there. VICTORIA: Yeah, I actually, I mean, I did say that in the moment. And the way I recovered was that I said, "You know, I didn't want it to come across as an admonishment, like, why haven't you been listening? But more about back to our values, how can I make you all more bought into our goals from the beginning and make sure that you're connected and we're on the same page? Because it felt a little disconnected for me [laughs]," right? But yeah, no, I like that you put it that way. Like it's also about how you repair. And I think that's true as well. When I think about whether or not you're safe with someone, it's also like, are you safe enough to tell me when I made a mistake? And the way you're going to feel safe is if someone tells you that they make a mistake, they're going to apologize, and repair, and figure out how to do better next time. FRANCIS: Yeah, totally. VICTORIA: And then, I think about how much my, like, leadership learning fits into my, like, regular personal life [laughs] also, right? Yeah, that's wonderful. If you could go back in time to maybe when you were that engineer about to take your engineering management position, what advice would you give yourself if you could? FRANCIS: Hey, you do realize this is a totally different path. You're going to need to develop different skills that you add to. That was fine, you know because I kind of navigated that very seamlessly in many ways. But what I didn't highlight is that there was a transition, actually. And I think this is where the advice would come in. So, I was an engineer, so thinking with systems and system thinking. And I realized very rapidly this is a different role. I'm not programming code anymore, you know. And what I told myself was I'm programming the system in which code is being written. And I think that's a good working metaphor or thinking for a while. And that's where the advice would come in. It's kind of, A, this is not, like, an engineering system. This is about humans. So, in a way, I would kind of nudge myself toward developing the soft skills much more rapidly because I think it took me a while to really grok that, hey, I need to understand how to relate individually and personally to people and not just to ideas, roles, and process. Because you can have, like, an engineering perspective on management but that's lacking in empathy and...mainly the empathy [laughs]. So, do pay attention to empathy. I think that would be the fifth advice [laughs]. VICTORIA: Isn't that great advice for all of us all the time, right [laughs]? FRANCIS: Yes. VICTORIA: I love that. Yeah, wonderful. FRANCIS: I'm always happy to connect with people. You can find me on LinkedIn, Francis Lacoste. I think we don't talk to each other enough in these digital times. And so, we all network a lot, you know, on Slack and LinkedIn. And one day, I was connecting with someone on LinkedIn, and the guy offered me...said, "Hey, happy to connect. Are you interested in doing, like, a short call just to get acquainted?" And I said, "Oh, that's actually a good idea." I talked with the guy and decided to do the same thing myself. So, I'm always happy to have a conversation with folks. So, I invite you to try it out, you know, there's a lot of people out there, interesting people, and have interesting conversations. VICTORIA: I love that so much. That's really nice. And people can do that to me, too. You can always...people talk to me, come talk to me on my podcast [laughs]. Thank you so much for being with us here today, Francis. I really enjoyed our conversation. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. And you can find me on thoughtbotmastodonsocial@vguido. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.

Host Victoria Guido discusses the therapeutic and community-building aspects of converting hobbies into mental health therapy with special guest Hamidah Nalwoga. Hamidah shares how attempting to learn hula hooping through expensive circus school lessons made her realize a need for a more accessible form of skill sharing. Meet Hobi—a platform where people can learn various skills not as a means of professionalization but for personal therapy and community building. Hamidah explains the challenges and insights from starting Hobi, particularly the hurdles of managing a two-sided marketplace and the importance of community support in the mental health space. While aiming to foster both skill development and mental well-being by providing affordable and engaging group sessions in arts, dance, and writing therapy, the platform also offers these sessions at minimal costs. Hamidah and Victoria also talk about the broader impacts of community-focused initiatives on mental health. With an increasing number of people facing mental health issues and lacking adequate support, platforms like Hobi are envisioned as a bridge to accessible mental health care. Sharing the value of creative expression in mental wellness, Hamidah advocates for a shift towards more community-centric and engaging therapeutic practices and highlights the potential for using innovative tech solutions to address the mental health crisis. Hobi (https://gethobi.com/) Follow Hobi on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/hobi-making-your-hobbies-therapy/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/hobiplatform/), or Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/Hobiplatform). Follow Hamidah Nalwoga on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamidah-nalwoga-78143a255/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript: VICTORIA:  This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Hamidah Nalwoga, Founder of Hobi, showing you how to turn your hobbies into a form of therapy. Hamidah, thank you for joining me. HAMIDAH: Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you so much for having me. VICTORIA: Well, great. Well, why don't you tell me something that's going on in your world outside of work, just to intro yourself? What are your interests outside of your startup and your job? HAMIDAH: Yeah, my interests outside of, like, work and business, I would say the biggest one is digital art. I used to be really, really into it, but then I took a break, but now I'm finding it again. So yeah, I've been doing that a lot recently. Also, I'm trying to get into, like, audible books. VICTORIA: Ooh. HAMIDAH: I tried reading, but I can't stand it. So, I'm back to audible books [laughs]. VICTORIA: Oh, nice. Audible books, and you said digital art? HAMIDAH: Yeah, digital art. VICTORIA: What kind of digital art do you bank? HAMIDAH: I'm using Krita. It's a software. I use, like, a Wacom tablet and draw stuff like flowers, sunsets, stuff like that. VICTORIA: That sounds really nice. I love that. I've got a little art project myself coming up on Wednesday this week. HAMIDAH: Aw, that's nice. VICTORIA: I'm a big sister of, you know, Big Sister Little Sister. And so, me and my little sister are going to do these, like, oil paint by number kits. So, it's like a mentorship program in San Diego. So, it's a lot of fun for me and for my little, so yeah, I'm excited about that. And I love your idea of your company. So, you know, a lot of people when you tell them you have a hobby, sometimes they think about, oh, you should monetize it, and you should, like, make money off of it. But I like that your take is, oh, you should make therapy out of it. You should get emotional well-being out of your hobby. So, tell me a little bit more about, like, what led you to that idea? HAMIDAH: Originally, I wanted to learn how to hula hoop. I saw this music video, you know, and this person was, like, looking super cool, doing all these tricks, you know, like, it looked amazing to me. So, I was like, you know what? I want to be able to do that. So, that's how my journey started. I tried the YouTube videos, but it wasn't really helping me as much. I'm more of a person who learns in person, like, someone shows me what I'm doing wrong exactly. So, that's why I tried to find an in-person teacher. But I found a circus school that was charging $80 per lesson, which is just about an hour. That was, like, too expensive for me. VICTORIA: Eight dollars for a hula hoop lesson? HAMIDAH: Yeah. VICTORIA: Wow. HAMIDAH: Because they were charging, like, the rate of the circus school. Like, if you want to have any aerial lessons, hula hoop, it would all go into one thing, so it's like $80 an hour. That's why I was like, you know what? I know somebody in Boston who knows how to hula hoop enough that they could teach me how to do it. They may not be a professional hula hooper, but they can at least show me the basics. So, that's where the idea came from of trying to learn skills from your neighbor that isn't really a professional at it. VICTORIA: So, it all circles back to hula hooping. HAMIDAH: Exactly. Yeah. [laughter] VICTORIA: Well, that's awesome. It makes so much sense, right? Like, yeah, you don't necessarily need a professional circus performer to teach you how to hula hoop. There's someone who'd be willing to do it. So, yeah, so you went from that idea, and what was kind of your first step where you knew, oh, maybe I could make something out of this? How did you get there? HAMIDAH: Yeah, and I was looking around, and I couldn't find, like, a good solution to, like, this whole skill-sharing thing. The best thing I found was Skillshare, and it was, like, an online platform where you could learn, like, animation, you know, Photoshop, that type of stuff, but it didn't really cater to, like, the softcore skills, like skating, that type of stuff. So, I was like, you know what? I'm going to do this, you know, like, be like an Uber, but for skills. Yeah, and doing that was extremely difficult, like, resource-wise. And, like, in general, it was a very hard task to tackle. And when I went to startup forums, like, groups, they would tell me that, "You have to be specific. Like, this is not going to work because you have to worry about, like, the two-sided marketplace, you know? And if you add, like, different locations in that, it's going to be very, very difficult." So yeah, I tried doing that for about a year, and I was seeing some growth doing, like, a few skills, mainly like art, cooking. But after a while, I started getting burnt out, mainly because I didn't really have a huge passion for that. By trade, I'm a mental health nurse. I've been one for the past five years. So, I took a break for about a month, and I was thinking, okay, what do I enjoy doing? And if it was to fail, what would I not regret spending a lot of my hours doing? And that was mental health. So, that's where the idea came to me: to make your hobbies a form of therapy. VICTORIA: I love that. And I'm curious what else about your background helped kind of inform your ideas around the therapy side of it. HAMIDAH: I guess this kind of goes into my background. As a nurse, I worked in this emergency room and then also inpatient psych. And I was seeing a lot of patients that come back again and again. They lack a couple of things in their environment outside of, like, a psych unit, for example. On the psych unit, they have a structure. Like, you go to group art therapy, then you talk about your feelings. You have support there around you, you know. And then once they get discharged and back into the community, most people don't have this thing. That's probably why they're in the hospital in the first place, you know. And so, I was thinking, like, what if someone can have this type of structure on the outside without having to be in the hospital? I mean, some people do, but you have to have insurance, you know, it costs a lot of money. So, that's where Hobi was trying to come in to be a structure, you know, like a fun thing that's not just okay...and I'm not putting down psychotherapy at all, but sometimes people don't want to talk about their feelings all the time. You know, sometimes people want to do something fun, like, while also, like, having a mental health professional around to, like, guide them. VICTORIA: Yeah, I totally get that. Like, I had been doing some of the talk therapy, like, apps, you know, like, BetterHelp and things like that. And it was fine, but then I kind of switched to just doing the tarot deck app instead because it's more fun, and it's less, like, just deep thinking about your feelings. It's kind of, like, expressive. And I think the interesting part about your journey here and, like, what I've heard as a repeating theme so far this year on the podcast is that, like, the real answer to a lot of problems is community and having those connections between people. HAMIDAH: Yes. VICTORIA: And, like, I love that you're working on how can tech solve that, and how can you make it affordable for people to build those communities and have access to those support networks and structure? Let me recap a little bit. So, you wanted to learn how to hula hoop, and then you wanted to find someone to teach you, and then you wanted to build an app to get that skill sharing going, but you thought you maybe wanted to make it a little more specific. So, you wanted to kind of bring it in as, like, hobbies as therapy, and that's where you are today, right? HAMIDAH: Yes. It was a long journey. When you say it, it sounds like it's been a couple of months, you know, but it's actually been [laughs]...it's a span of years [laughs]. VICTORIA: So, how would you describe where you're at now in your customer discovery journey and finding your product-market fit? HAMIDAH: Yeah, right now, I would say I have found my customer, but I am in a place where I'm making income from Hobi. It's not enough to, like, be profit. Obviously, I'm still starting out because this...I pivoted about eight months ago to go to, like, the hobbies as a form of therapy niche. And I have found some customers. I have some repeating customers, people who actually enjoy this that, like, you know, "This is actually amazing. This has helped me a lot with my life," yeah. And the way I find these people is by providing community. VICTORIA: So, you found users through your existing community connections and through the group that you're running. Is that right? HAMIDAH: Yeah. VICTORIA: And so, you kind of found that, like, the traditional marketing models where you put out an ad and people click through, like, it wasn't a good enough management of expectations from, like, end to end. So, like, kind of going to the groups first and forming the connection and then being like, "We can use Hobi to facilitate this connection," worked more for you. HAMIDAH: Yes. And also, the other thing, too, that worked for me...because, like, the issue with Hobi it's a two-sided marketplace. So, I have to worry about, like, the therapists that are going to be offering these sessions, as well as the people who are going to be paying to have the sessions. So, it was very tricky to try and balance those two sides, but I did find a medium. Like, the key, if I was to take away from this, if I was to tell anybody the main thing to focus on, is to build, like, a strong relationship with...it doesn't have to be a lot of people. Start with one person and just make sure that you give them what they need, you know, like, they feel like this is something that's worth it to them. And then, from there, trying to replicate that if you can to a second person, and then a third person, like, something like that because you have to personalize it as much as you can. VICTORIA: And what were some of the unique needs of therapy providers and people who would be participating in these community groups that was surprising to you when you started this process? HAMIDAH: Was it surprising to me? I don't know if it was really surprising. When I started, I was trying to find, like, whoever needed the app the most, you know, in terms of both mentors and the student side. And I found, like, there's a lot of people out there that are trying to make money teaching what they know. I found a lot of art therapists that wanted to join Hobi, and it wasn't very difficult to do. But I guess the tricky part or, like, the surprise that I found was not just finding someone who wants to make the money but is willing to take a loss a little bit for you or, like, for that cause. I don't know if that at all answers the question. Because I was finding people that were like, "Yes, I want to make money teaching, like, art therapy to a group of people." But then when they had a class, for example, and nobody showed up, it was, like, a huge blow to them. They're like, "No, I don't want to do this." And that was when I just started with this niche. But then I was lucky enough to find a couple of art therapists that were willing to give it time and actually volunteer their time, like, one hour a month and just give, like, a free session or, yeah, stuff like that. And then, I noticed that over the months, now that mentor...well, like, those that I'm working with are actually now getting a profit. VICTORIA: That's interesting, right? Because you're providing a platform. It's not a guarantee that people are going to make money right away. And you have to have a similar kind of community mindset that you're going to need to put in the time and start showing up regularly, and not everyone's going to be a good fit for that. So, that's really interesting. Yeah, I really like that. Tell us a little bit more about it. What kind of things can you get into on the app or on the website? HAMIDAH: We offer art therapy, dance therapy, and writing therapy, or journaling, and then some cooking classes. So, those are, like, the main things I can get into. And then, for people who are new to this type of, you know, like, therapy, mental wellness, we do have a category called mental wellness skills. They can join there and learn, like, basic coping skills, emotional regulation, and stuff like that. VICTORIA: I love that. I saw all those services, and I was like, oh, this sounds really nice [laughter]. Like, maybe I should sign up. But how do people access the app? Because I know you're trying to balance making that profit and also providing services to people who can't afford it. So, how did you strike that balance? HAMIDAH: Yeah, I'll be super honest. I am still trying to get that balance, but, again, like I said, it depends on finding someone whose priorities fit your priorities. Like for example, I'm not going to go to an art therapist who has, like, ten years of experience used to, like, charging $200 a session and ask them, "Hey, could you join Hobi and take this huge pay cut for me [laughs]?" Like, that's not going to work out. The balance I found through getting the right person to work with me, because, to this person, they actually see a lot of potential, and they actually are making more than they would have without Hobi. And to the user coming to the platform, they're getting someone who is very enthusiastic about what they're doing. And it's actually helping them out a lot at a fraction of the cost of what they would get elsewhere. VICTORIA: Gotcha. Yeah. And I saw you had some different pricing points, too. You could pay just, like, per session that you wanted and join for free, or you could get, like, a regular amount of sessions per month, and things like that. Both sides of the marketplace. I love that. Ooh. So, tell me more about, like, what's the impact that you're seeing? Now that you've gotten some traction and you're starting to see people really use it, tell me more about those stories where people are saying, "You know, it makes my life so much better." HAMIDAH: I didn't really start seeing the impact, again, like, until a couple of months started rolling by because it would take some time, again, to get used to something. First, they go check it out. You know, they're like, "Oh, actually, this is kind of nice, you know." Then they go back again. They're like, "Oh, actually, maybe it's actually really good for me." Then, as they start using it over and over again, they start seeing the value of it, and that's what happened. So, a lot of the good reviews that I was getting are from users who have been using it for, like, three months now. And they like it a lot, again, because of the two main reasons. The instructors are usually very enthusiastic and are wanting to help them, and they can feel that. The other thing is, like, they get a community because it is mostly, like, group sessions. So, people have an option to do one-on-one sessions if they want with the instructors. But, usually, it's just group sessions, and the cost is the same, $5 for all the sessions. So, it's, like, very, very affordable. And people keep coming back. "I'm only paying $5. I get a group that I talk to, make some friends. I have a therapist that I can talk to, you know." It combines and adds up over a couple of months of doing it. VICTORIA: I can imagine that'd be really stabilizing for a lot of people, especially for people who maybe aren't able or can't afford to travel in person to these types of sessions. HAMIDAH: Yeah, I think it's stabilizing, and that's what I was keeping in mind when I was making the platform and talking with the mentors. I try to ask them to create, like, a structure to their sessions, not just, like, random, like, days, you know? So, like, it's usually the same day every week, you know, and the same time every week. So, you know, like, okay, every Monday, I have a support group that I go to to, like, do art journaling, and then talk about how I feel, you know, like, check-in with people, they check in with me, stuff like that. VICTORIA: That's really wonderful. And so, that's an incredible thing to be working on. So, how do you think about what success looks like for you this year or five years from now? HAMIDAH: Yeah. What does success look like? What success would look like, for me, I would say, since this is, like, a self-funded platform and right now I am bootstrapping and I'm kind of in the negative...although I have been steadily, you know, like, the app is growing. I'm very happy for that. I'm getting more users coming back over and over again. I'm getting good reviews. I'm getting new mentors joining, so it is heading in the right trajectory, but it's, like, a slow but steady growth. And I want to keep it that way because we run into some blunders sometimes. And I can't imagine having a whole bunch of people in the app and then having a blunder, you know, and how I would deal with that. But anyway, I digress. What success would look like, for me, is if I am in a profit margin, so, like, not being in the negatives but in the green. You know, I don't have to have, like, a lot of money, but as long as I'm not working in the negatives, that would be success for me. And in terms of the platform in general, success would look like, again, like steady growth, just keep going up, keep going up, and, hopefully, have less blunders along the way. Like, for example, I mean, I'm sure many founders have dealt with this, especially in tech. Like, you build this platform, you know, things were going smooth, then boom, the website crashes, you know. And it's like, people get pissed off, and it's like, "What's happening?" you know. And it's a lot of stress to deal with sometimes. But in that aspect, too, success would look like having less of that happen and having more of the good stuff happen. VICTORIA: Yeah. So, steady profits, steady performance of the application. Those are two great goals. I love it. How did you approach building the tech side of the company? And was there things from your own background that you found were helpful, or did you find people to help you with parts of it? Or how'd you do it? HAMIDAH: That was a very huge huddle for me because my background, again, is in nursing. I don't have any friends who are in tech. I went to a pharmacy college school, like a healthcare university, so they did not have any, like, developing computer science programs. When I had this idea, I was like, how the heck am I going to do this? Because I don't have any connections. You know, I didn't even have a LinkedIn. Yeah, so it was a lot of, like, searching online. I did get scammed twice trying to do this, but I was thankful that because of my job, I'm able to have a steady income. I was able to, like, eat up those losses and learn from my mistakes. And I found a development company that I worked with, and I've been working with for a while now, and they're very good. So, they have been helping me. Like, price-wise, they're great, and product-wise, they're also great. VICTORIA: Yeah, it can be really hard to navigate when you don't have experience or any connections to the community. But I appreciate you sharing that because I think it's a really common story that happens to people, and not a lot of people talk about it. HAMIDAH: Yeah. The other thing, too, that I should warn any new founders out there or people in the community as well, watch out for who you work with, you know, like, really, really do your due diligence because I learned the hard way twice. It was different times, and it was different ways that I got scammed, not the same way, but yeah, people will approach you, and they'll give you a great price point. And if you're, like, really desperate, you know, and you really don't have the money and want to see, like, the results right away, you might get sucked into it, but just always do your due diligence and try to find other options. VICTORIA: Yeah. And, you know, talk to companies like thoughtbot who won't scam you [laughter]. But yeah, no, I'm sorry to hear. And there's, you know, don't feel bad. Also, like, those companies that do that, that's what they do, and they're really good at it, and it could happen to anybody. And same with, like, mental health, and, you know, wanting more connections and struggling with it, it sounds like you could use Hobi to find connection now and find people to help you get through that. So, I really think that's important. MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you’re tight on time and investment, which is why we’ve created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product’s next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at tbot.io/entrepreneurs. VICTORIA: [inaudible 19:28] think about, what core values drive your everyday decisions? HAMIDAH: Do things leaner. You know, like, I saw this lecture, like, The Lean Startup. Start as lean as possible and get the fundamental idea running without having to put a lot of money into it. And then, for my core values, I would say, like, integrity, doing what makes me happy, so it doesn't feel like I'm pushing, like, a heavy rock, just doing what feels like...something that just flows. VICTORIA: I like that. Yeah, I think The Lean Startup is really smart. And it is funny when people ask me about app ideas. Like it's so tempting to just want to go build something and just see if people like it. But the answer is always, like, "Well, go talk to people first [laughs] before you, like, spend a lot of time building something," which is a lot harder and scarier to do. And that is why I really appreciate you sharing that. And then, I liked your values: integrity, and, like, a self-fulfillment, self-actualizing feeling, not just, like, being repetitive loops. But yeah, no, that's really nice. And then, what are the biggest challenges in your horizon that you see? HAMIDAH: The blunders that I talked about earlier, whereby something that you didn't expect to happen happens, and something that's usually bad that you didn't expect to happen happens. That's one of the biggest challenges that I'm trying to face. Yeah, I guess, like, how do you plan for the unexpected, you know? And how do you, like, do, like, a backup plan? In case something fails, how do you handle it, you know? Stuff like that. VICTORIA: Yeah, now you're getting into, like, resilience engineering. I love it. Yeah, you're working with your development partner. Have you all talked about service-level objectives or any kind of, like, application monitoring, or anything like that? HAMIDAH: Yeah, we have, yeah. And when I do say blunders, I don't mean, like, the app is crashing every, like, day. It's in terms of...like, one example was what happened. We use this video calling software, and it's not with Hobi. It's through a different third-party video calling software. And we just added their API into our website. And one of the mentors was giving a session one day, and the camera just stopped working, and it happened, like, twice. And it's like, how do you deal with that? Because it's not even, like, the app itself. So, it's not my developers that are causing the issue. It's the third party that we worked with that's causing the issue, you know. And it's like, so I had to go and find a different third-party person to work with and hope that that doesn't happen with them. Yeah, it's just, like, stuff like that. How do you predict the unpredictable? You know, like, I guess sitting down and thinking about all the bad possible things that could happen, I don't know [chuckles]. VICTORIA: Yeah. Like, there's a balance between there are some things you could put a lot of structure and process around, and then, like, is that necessary? Like, is that the highest priority use of your time right now? Because yeah, lots of things can go wrong: APIs can break, you know, people push updates; DDoS attacks are happening more and more, ransomware attacks. There's all kinds of things that can happen that, yeah, it's pretty tough. But I think what you've done, where you've built a really strong relationship with your service providers and with your users, will help you in the long run because everyone has issues like that. Like, no app is perfect. So, if you're providing a really good service and the majority of the time it's working, then [laughs], like, you're probably fine. It's like, when do you make that choice between, like, really investing in, like, the application monitoring piece and things like what you're kind of talking? Like, it might be a major architectural change in the app that you would have to, like, invest in. So, that's something that I think about a lot is, like, how are leaders making these decisions? And, like, do you have someone to go to to, like, bounce ideas off of? I'm sure you have mentors in the startup community in Boston that you can, like, go to for advice on those things now. And I actually know that you know Jordyn through the Boston startup network area. How has that community been for you? HAMIDAH: Oh, it's been good. It was a great community. I was there in the accelerator, Prepare 4 VC. I was there from July till September, and I learned a lot from them. They left their arms open. They're like, "If you ever need to come back, you can always come back. Like, we're always here; just reach out. We can always have a meeting anytime you need one." So, it's been very great. And I really, really appreciate being a part of it. VICTORIA: That's awesome. What's the wind in your sails? What keeps you going? HAMIDAH: I don't know if I talked about this, but I remember, like, where I faced a crash at some point where I was like, this is not working [chuckles]. Because I was like, I don't know if I can do this, you know. And that's when I sat with myself, and I was like, what do you see yourself doing forever, whereby you don't care if it pans out or not? It was this, the mental health aspect. And I'm an artist. I like art, you know, I like creative expression. I like dancing, you know, like, with a hula hoop, like we talked about earlier. You know, I like that type of stuff. So, I was like, okay, how do I mix the two together? And this is where this came about making your hobbies therapy. And also, like, community, like, community building. It really all came together. And just knowing that I am building that slowly but steadily, that's what keeps me going. VICTORIA: I really love that. That's really amazing. And did we talk enough about mental health on the episode? I know we wanted to really get into it a little bit about there's a mental health crisis in the United States right now, and I'm sure in other countries as well across the board. So, maybe you wanted to say a little bit more about that and how art could be a part of it. HAMIDAH: Oh yeah, I saw this study that 1 in 5 Americans suffers from mental illness. Half of the people that have mental illness don't actually get treated, and it's for a lot of factors. And, you know, it's expensive if you don't have insurance, especially. There's no access, lack of education around it. So, it's a lot of reasons. That's where Hobi comes in, like, you know, like, it's trying to help a little bit where it can. So, in terms of, like, the financial aspect, sessions are $5. And in terms of accessibility, if you have Wi-Fi and you have a phone, you know, you can access it. And I know, like, not everybody has that, but, like, we're trying to help in that aspect. In terms of community, there's groups, support groups on Hobi based on interests. So, if you like art, you can find an art group. And I'm not going to lie; they're not huge groups, you know? I mean, it's a new concept. It's eight months since the pivot, so it's growing. But there is people in the groups, and people chat sometimes. I remember, like, somebody had posted, like, a cry for help, and somebody else actually replied them. They were actually talking together and then helping each other out. And it made me be like, okay, you know what? I should keep going with this. Like, this is why you're doing this. The aspect in art and mental health is it brings what is in your head on the outside, and that helps take the emotional weight off of you. The best way to explain this, for example, is with journaling. You have all these mini-thoughts going up in your head, you know, like your anxieties, your fears, all these things going on that you internalize, like, you know, you just keep pushing in the back of your head, and then you think about it all day. But if you take the time, for example, you sit down, and you write out how you're feeling, you know, with purpose, you know, like a gratitude journal, you, like, paint what you're feeling, like, express what you're feeling, and if you do this enough, you start to see a pattern. You stop internalizing all these things, and they become an actual thing that you can look at and analyze. So, like, that's the whole point of art and mental health. Like, it helps you bring it out of your head and onto, like, a piece of paper. VICTORIA: That's great, yeah. I think I took a psychology 101 class in college, and she's like, "If you're having circular thoughts, just, like, put them on paper, and then go to bed [laughs]." But yeah, I think that's a really beautiful way to put it. So, thank you for sharing that. Is there anything else you'd like to promote? HAMIDAH: I'm here to talk about Hobi, and so that's what I would like to promote. You can go check out the app. We have a website and an app now. Because I'm a mental health person, you know, don't forget to take care of yourself, and don't forget to be kind to yourself. And it doesn't have to be through Hobi, but try to use art as a form of mental wellness. My task to you, listener, is, try journaling, for example. Try [inaudible 27:46] your feelings. Try dancing out that stress and see if you feel a difference after. VICTORIA: What a wonderful way to end the episode. Thank you so much for coming on and telling us your story and talking about Hobi. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. And you can find me on thoughtbot.social@vguido. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.

Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido chat with Sanghmitra Bhardwaj, CEO and Founder of Insusty. Sanghmitra shares her journey from a small village in the foothills of the Himalayas to becoming a founder in France, driven by firsthand experiences with climate disasters and a passion for sustainable living. Insusty, a sustainability loyalty program, is a platform incentivizing individuals to adopt climate-positive actions through rewards, thereby fostering a community motivated towards environmental stewardship. The show digs into the mechanics and vision of Insusty, highlighting how the platform rewards eco-friendly actions like volunteering and donating, rather than purchases. This approach aims to bridge the gap between the desire for sustainable living and the practical challenges individuals face, such as the perceived high costs of sustainable products. Sanghmitra reveals the evolution of Insusty, including strategic pivots towards niche markets within the circular economy and the importance of transparency and impact measurement in building trust with consumers. Towards the episode's conclusion, the conversation shifts to broader implications of sustainability in technology and business. Sanghmitra expresses curiosity about future expansions of Insusty, particularly in tracking and rewarding individual daily eco-actions more effectively. She also touches upon the challenges and triumphs of being a solo female founder in the tech and sustainability sectors, underscoring the significance of community, perseverance, and innovation in driving change. Insusty (https://www.insusty.info/) Follow Insusty on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/insusty/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/theinsusty/), or X (https://twitter.com/the_insusty). Follow Sanghmitra Bhardwaj on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sanghmitra-bhardwaj-515428236/) or X (https://twitter.com/sustainwithsan). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL:  This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. With me today is Sanghmitra Bhardwaj, CEO and Founder of Insusty, a sustainability loyalty program for individuals. Sanghmitra, thank you for joining us. SANGHMITRA: Thank you so much for having me here. I'm super excited for the podcast and to discuss various topics that we are about to. And I'm sure that it's going to be a learning experience, not just for the audience, but also for me. So, thank you for this opportunity. VICTORIA: Why don't we just start off getting to know you a little bit? Tell us something exciting going on in your life, maybe outside of work. SANGHMITRA: Okay, so, well, recently, I joined a pole dancing class. I wanted to challenge myself and see if I have the core strength that I need to be strong. And I also feel that it's something that I always wanted to do to come out of my comfort zone. So, it's been fun so far. VICTORIA: I tried that, and I thought that I would naturally be good at it because I'm a rock climber. And so, I thought I'd have all the right muscle groups, but the coordination and [laughs], like, expression of it is still challenging if you've never done it before. SANGHMITRA: Yeah, definitely. And I think there are some techniques and if you don't do it right, like, you will not get it at all, those poses and, like, how you climb the pole and everything. So, I completely relate to your experience here. VICTORIA: I want to do more dance, actually, because the mind-body connection and getting into that feeling of flow is really interesting for me. And I think it's like expressing through your body, which 80% of communication is non-verbal, which is really interesting. SANGHMITRA: Yeah, that's true. Just to add to it, I wanted to also share with you that I used to do modeling back in India, and I really love expressing myself with my body. And it's been super interesting to see that. And also, when I have conversations with other people, these are the things that I observe a lot. Is it the same for you? Do you also observe other people's body language when they are talking to you and probably change some topics that you are trying to discuss? VICTORIA: Yeah, absolutely. You can tell if people are listening to what you're saying. They, like, lean in a little bit, or if they're not really wanting to relate to what you're saying, they're, like, crossing their arms in front of you. So, as someone who works in business development, I definitely pay a lot of attention [laughs] to all that stuff. But I'm curious, how did you go from being a model in India to founder and CEO where you are today? SANGHMITRA: That's something that I would love to talk about, and also, it has to do from where I come from. So, I come from a very small village in the foothills of the Himalayas. There, I witnessed climate disasters firsthand. In 2013, there were a lot of cloudbursts happening in those areas. An entire village next to my village disappeared completely without a trace. And those were some moments in my life where I really felt like we live in a world where you can be far from Europe...for example, currently, I live in France, and here, when heat wave happens, we all suffer and people talk about it. But I have seen, like, the adverse effect of what it can lead to. So, there was a part of me that always wanted to do something in terms of the impact that I create, like, with my work. So, I started doing modeling, which was something for myself as well to gain some confidence. At the same time, I worked with sustainable brands in India. I modeled for them, and then I discovered their work. I got inspired by it, and I realized that it's something that interests me a lot, and I wanted to pursue my studies in it to know more about it. So, that's when I came to France to pursue my master's in sustainable finance to discover more about this field and to see where I belong. And finally, I founded Insusty, where I could see that I could bring my inspiration from the sustainable brands that I worked with. Whether it's from the fashion or, the food industry, or the travel industry, I could see the inspiration coming from there. At the same time, I could see how we need to create mass adoption through incentivizing climate action, which was something that I explored during my studies. And I kind of went with Insusty, and that was the beginning of my founder journey. WILL: I have a question about the way you grew up, and you're saying in a village. Can you expound a little bit on that? Because you said, climate change wiped out an entire village. And so, when I saw that in the email, I was like, I don't think I've ever had a chance to actually talk to someone that lived in a village. I grew up in the United States. So, like, help paint that picture. When you say you grew up in a village, what do you mean by that? What was it like growing up in a village, and also, what do you mean by the next village got entirely wiped out? SANGHMITRA: Yeah. Living in a village it's like being a part of a tiny, well-knitted community, and it's, like, everyone knows everyone. And sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad because when people gossip, of course, it spreads like a wildfire. As well as when you need support and when you need help, this community is always there, too. So, the part of belonging to such a community and to kind of engage with people is something that I really enjoy about coming from a small village. And that's something that I oftentimes search in France, where I can be a part of such communities as well, where people inspire each other. For example, currently, I'm a part of a wonderful community of women of color founders living in Europe. It's called Founderland. And it's thanks to Founderland that I found you then I could join this podcast. So, when it comes to the small village, this is what I really really love about it is the small knitted community we have. When I say that the entire village next to my village disappeared, I mean that when there was the cloudburst in the mountain, the soil and everything drowned the entire village. So, there was a school, and we used to hear a story about the school, where the kids were told by the teachers to run because there is a cloudburst, and "We are about to die if we stay in this place." And as a student, as a kid, what do you think first? You think about packing your bags instead of running. So, the kids ended up packing their bags before they could run, and by that time, it was too late. So, this is just one of the heartbreaking stories that I'm sharing with you right now, but it had been something that really left a mark in my life. VICTORIA: I really appreciate you sharing that story because when I talk to people about climate change, I think it's really easy to get this nihilistic attitude about, well, climate change is going to kill us all in 20 years. So, why bother doing anything about it? And what I usually answer back is that climate change is already killing people. And then, it's happening in your own neighborhood, even, like, you know, I live here in San Diego, and it's always between, like, 60 and 80 degrees every single day [chuckles], but our beaches are collapsing. There are neighborhoods that are more impacted by pollution than others and are experiencing environmental impacts from that and their health, and everything like that. So, I'm curious how it all comes together with what you're doing with Insusty and how you're inspiring people to take action towards sustainability in the here and now. SANGHMITRA: Actually, I have a question for you and Will. I wanted to understand, for example, if you purchase something in terms of, for example, it's related to fashion, or it's related to food products, what is the criteria that's most important to you? And maybe probably you can tell me, like, the top three criteria that are most important for you when you buy something. And then, I would love to share how Insusty can help you buy better. VICTORIA: When I'm looking to buy things, I look for, like, price. I want it to be reasonable, but I also don't want it to be so cheap that it means it's a really poor quality. So, I want to find that balance between, like, quality and price. And I do also care about sustainability, and, like, what is the background of the company that I'm buying it from? You know, what's their reputation? What's their, like, practices? Like one example is, like, the rugs for your house. So, I like to buy rugs that are made from sustainable fabrics and dyes and that I can wash them because I have a dog. And so, that's kind of, like, what I think through when I buy things. But it's not always easy, especially with clothing, because it seems like anyone who makes clothing, there's just always this risk of it being sourced at some part in the manufacturing pipeline having to do with either child labor or really terrible sustainability practices. WILL: Yeah. I would say, for me, early on, especially when I was growing up, we didn't have a lot of money, so it was just whatever is the cheapest, whatever we could afford at that moment. It wasn't really looking into the quality, or sustainability, or any of those items. Some of the stuff I look back on that I ate often, I'm like, whoa, man, that was not the best thing. But it was the cheapest, and it was what we ate and things like that. So, now that I'm older, my wife has been talking to me about some of that stuff, and it's like, oh, I had no idea, because of the environment I grew up in, that, like, that's even affecting me. And that was kind of why I asked you about the village thing is because I feel like we can get in a bubble sometimes and not even be aware of what's happening to other people. And I think, Victoria, you said something about people not understanding climate change. It's kind of tough at times to talk about climate change when you live in...where I'm at in Florida, it's like, okay, it gets hot, and then it gets cold. And yeah, we have a hurricane every now and then, but whenever you told the story about the village, it's like, oh, wow, like, that's a different game. That's a different level. I didn't even know about that. So, I think that's kind of my journey now is I am starting to understand sustainability. I think a lot of times I still have that I grew up with nothing mindset and want to get the cheapest thing because sometimes buying sustainability is super expensive. So, that's why I'm glad that I'm talking to you, so maybe I can learn some of those things. So yeah, that's kind of been my journey with it. SANGHMITRA: That's really wonderful to get your insights because now I can tell you confidently what we do. Basically, when I talk to people, it was generally the same thing that I asked them, "What's the most important thing when you buy, like, the top three most important things?" Sustainability was definitely one of them, but cost was always there. Regardless of the background that they are from, cost was something that they all thought about. So, what we do at Insusty is that we incentivize individuals to do something good for the planet. It can be, for example, you want to volunteer at an NGO next to your place. You want to get rewarded. So, what we do is we offer you loyalty points that help you to buy from sustainable brands. So, you try these products because, oftentimes, as Will also mentioned, there is a perception, and it's also a reality, that sustainable products tend to be more expensive. So, we try to deal with that by offering a loyalty program that incentivizes climate action. And in terms of the sustainable brands, they get new customer base. They get to interact with these customers. They get to see their product and sites. What is something that the customers really like? What is something that can be improved? How can they improve in terms of their own sustainability and their impact? For example, their supply chain operations and so on. So, it's something that we provide them and help them also with insights as well as new customer base. We try to support them with that. At the same time, on an individual level, we help with the cost factor, which is one of the most important things. When we want people to change, when we want people to adopt sustainable lifestyle, we kind of need to incentivize that so that mass adoption can be possible. VICTORIA: So, I'm imagining, like, I want to know a new brand that I want to buy clothes from, like essential clothes. I could go into the app and, like, find companies that produce the thing that I want, and then I could get points and rewards for buying consistently from that brand. SANGHMITRA: So, we are not like an actual loyalty program. So, you only receive points when you do something good for the planet. You don't receive points when you purchase from brands. This is a loyalty program where we give you points when you do something good for the planet, for example, donations. For NGOs, we have volunteer programs that individuals can participate in and receive loyalty points. But in the future, we are ambitious, and we want to go far. And we think that each and every activity of an individual can be tracked in terms of sustainability, how they are segregating their waste at home, how they're managing that, and so on, and give them points for each of their eco actions. VICTORIA: Awesome. Yeah. Okay. I love that. Yeah. So, what kind of things would earn me points, like, in my home ownership here? SANGHMITRA: If you volunteer with an NGO nearby or if you would like to participate in an event, for example, if you want to donate clothes, all these eco actions can give you loyalty points for the moment. And in the future, we want to also track the actions that you do at home. You save electricity, for example. You want to walk to the office instead of taking a cab, and all these activities, so that we can kind of make the experience also for the user a bit more like a game so that they enjoy doing it at the same time they receive rewards. And they can make purchases as well with the sustainable brands on our platform. VICTORIA: I like that because I've been talking with my partner about how do we live more sustainably, or how do we, like, reduce our consumption or give back. And I think if it was gamified and we got points for it, it's more motivating because then you also see that other people are doing it as well. And so, you're part of a community that's all trying to take the same action. And that will have a bigger impact than just one individual, right? SANGHMITRA: Yes, definitely. And we do have that feature on our platform where you could see near your area who donated and who is working in a particular NGO, so based on the fact that if the individual is comfortable in sharing that. Most of the time, when someone does something good for the planet, they would love to show it to the rest of the world. So, we have seen that people love to share their experiences and their badges, saying that, okay, they donated, for example, five euros to this NGO, and so on. So, they really love that. And it feels also really good to see this community and to get inspired by it. Mid-Roll Ad: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don’t have all year to do extended research. 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So, if they're purchasing food or they're purchasing more items related to fashion, they can also check that. They can check the total number of points that they have received so far, where they have used it, and so on. And at the backend, for us, we see it as the total number of transactions that are taking place, so, for example, how the loyalty point is being used. So, we have APIs that are in place between our platform and the platforms of other sustainable brands in our network. So, in our backend, we can see the transactions; for example, an individual used 100 points to get 10% off from one of the sustainable brands on our platform. And in terms of the sustainable brand side, even they have their own dashboard. They can also track how many individuals are using their points on their platform, and so on. So, they also have access to their own analytics dashboard. And through the same application, they can also provide us the payments through subscription and transaction fees. VICTORIA: Yeah, that's really interesting. And so, I understand that you've been in the journey for a little while now. And I'm curious: if you go back to when you first got started, what was surprising to you in the discovery phase and maybe caused you to pivot and change strategy? SANGHMITRA: So, one thing that I pivoted with was the type of brands that we wanted to onboard. Before, we had a very open approach; for example, we want brands that are sustainable, or if they are upcycling, or if they have, like, a particular social impact attached to it or an environmental impact attached to it. So, we were focusing on having the horizons a bit like the aspects of choosing a sustainable brand to be a partner. It was a bit broader for us. But when we talked with the people, they wanted a niche. For example, they wanted upcycle products. They wanted more brands in the circular economy domain. And that's when we realized that we need to have a niche. So, we focus on the brands that are more linked towards circular economy that are promoting the values of recycling, upcycling, and reusing the products. So, that was when we pivoted with the idea that we should not be open to all sustainable brands. However, we need to be really accurate with our approach. We need to focus on a particular niche. At the same time, we need to also make sure that we measure their impact and report it to our customers to ensure transparency on our platform. So, that became a priority more than having more and more brands on our platform. WILL: Yeah, I really...that was actually one of my questions I was going to ask you because I like how you are vetting them because I've, especially here in the States, I've seen, like, companies, like, slap 'non-GMO' or 'gluten-free.' And it's like, well, it doesn't even have wheat in it, so, like, yeah, it's gluten-free. So, it's like, it's more of a marketing thing than actually, like, helping out. So, I'm glad you're vetting that. How has that process going for you? SANGHMITRA: It's actually going really well, and we have established a five-step onboarding process. And in the first two steps, we also focus on measuring their impact. We have a self-evaluation form. We also check if they have some existing certificates. We also make sure that we have enough data about their supply chain and how they are working. And these are some of the information that we also share with our consumers, the one who would be interested to buy products from these brands, to make sure that we are transparent in our approach. There's also one more thing that we do. It's the quarterly reporting. So, every three months, we also report the individuals who are buying from sustainable brands on our platform that, okay, this brand did better this quarter because they implemented a process that, for example, is reducing a certain amount of emissions from their supply chain, or any other departments. So, these are some of the information that we also share with the individuals. VICTORIA: And what does success look like now versus six months from now or five years from now? SANGHMITRA: For the moment, success would look like for me to have more connections, more people who support our project and our initiative, and the more people joining us. In terms of the next six months, I think it would be linked to fundraising. But I wouldn't go so far at the moment because, for me, I take one day at a time. And this is something that has been super helpful for me to streamline my tasks. So, I take one day at a time, and it's working really well for me. WILL: What are some of your upcoming hurdles that you see? SANGHMITRA: When I talk about hurdles, I often see it in two parts, one being the internal hurdles and the other one being external. So, in terms of the internal hurdles, it can be something like I'm putting myself in a box that, okay, I'm a single woman founder. How can I do something good? And just doubting myself and things like that. These are some of the internal hurdles that I'm working on every day [chuckles]. I'm also talking to executive coaches to get their advice on how I can improve myself as well to overcome these internal hurdles. However, in terms of the external hurdles, these are some things that are not in my control, but I try my best to make the most of it. Currently, in terms of the external hurdles, I would say that I live in a country where I used to not even speak the language. So, initially, the hurdle that I experienced was mostly the cultural hurdle. But now it's more related to the fact that I am a single female founder, and there are perceptions around it that you need to have a co-founder. And there are a lot of different noises everywhere that doesn't allow you to grow. VICTORIA: And you're not just a founder, but you're also an author. And I wanted to ask you a little bit about your book, the Sustainability Pendulum. Can you share a little bit about what it is and why you wrote it? SANGHMITRA: So, Sustainability Pendulum is the book that I wrote last year, and I always wanted to write it. And last year, I put myself to work, and I was like, at least every day, I'm going to try and write one page, and probably by the end of the year, I can finish the book [chuckles], and that's what I did. I had to be super consistent. But I came up with Sustainability Pendulum, and it's about the stories from the past and the sustainable approaches that we had in the past, how we used to...in different religions, we have some stories written in the scriptures related to sustainable practices. And oftentimes, when we talk about sustainability today, we talk about the future. We talk about implementing different technologies and, doing a lot of innovations, and so on. However, we don't look into the past and see how efficiently things were handled when it came to sustainability in the past. And these are some of the stories from the past, from different religions, and how it transcends to today's sustainability issues and solutions. So, that's what the book is about. And why it's called the pendulum, it's because how the pendulum moves. I think it's obvious [laughs], so the pendulum's to and fro motion. It goes to the past, and it goes to the future. So, that was the whole concept behind the sustainability pendulum. WILL: That's amazing that you wrote a book, much, much respect on that. I am not an author, so...And I also know because my wife she's been talking about writing a book and the different challenges with that. So, kudos on writing a book. Would you write another one? SANGHMITRA: Actually, I would love to. I'm just looking for something that equally inspires me how it did for the last one. But I think once you come out of that space and you're consistent with writing the book or consistently working to achieve something, I think eventually it comes to you. So, I don't know what are the challenges that your wife mentions that she faced in writing the book. WILL: Like, having enough to write about, like you said, just sitting down each day writing a book. And I think publishing a book is tough. I know we've come a long ways, like, you can self-publish now instead of going through publishing companies, and just those different avenues of how many steps it takes. It's not just writing a book, sitting down and writing a book, and sharing with everyone. It's multiple steps that you have to go through. SANGHMITRA: Definitely. I couldn't agree more with you on this one. Just to add to it, how I managed to do this was also because I structured the book earlier. And in order to also publish it, I realized that I don't want to wait. And I self-published the book as soon as I found out that, okay, this is perfect, and it's ready. I need to just move forward with it. What helped me as well was the way I structured the book earlier. And then, I was like, okay, every day, this is what I'm going to work on. And it kind of helped me to get to the end of it. WILL: That's awesome. I like how you had forethought and how it made it easier for you to come up with ideas and write it. So, that's awesome. SANGHMITRA: I wish the best to your wife as well for her book. And I hope that once it's ready, you will let me know about it. WILL: Yes, I definitely will. You're talking about being a woman founder who is single. I don't want to assume. So, why is it tough for you to be a woman founder who's single? SANGHMITRA: When I say single female founder, it means that I don't have a co-founder. It's not, like, my relationship status but just [laughs] the fact that... WILL: Yes. Yes. [laughter] SANGHMITRA: Just that I am a single founder, like, then I don't have a co-founder, which oftentimes poses as a risk, especially when you talk to an investor. This is what I feel based on my experience. But I think the times are changing, and I feel that the more the project is growing, the better it is getting in terms of the people who are interested as well to be a part of Insusty as an investor or as a partner. Things have become better now than they were a few years ago. So, I can see the change. But, initially, I did used to feel low about it that, okay, I'm a single female founder, and oftentimes, it was considered as a challenge. But if you take my perspective, I think, for me personally, it possibly was also one of my biggest strengths because I could be that one person going to the meetings, and I felt that people were more open to share things. They did not feel threatened by me. And that was something that really helped me to also form connections with people. VICTORIA: I love how you connect having a small community in your village where you grew up to creating a community around yourself as a founder and having a village that supports you, and you feel comfortable around the community as well, and as part of that community. If you could go back in time and give yourself some advice when you were first getting started with Insusty, what advice would you give yourself? SANGHMITRA: Slow is good. When I say that, I mean that every time we talk about different startups and different companies, and it's always about how rapidly the startup is growing, how exponentially they are growing, and so on. But I feel that in terms of when you really want to create an impact, and you are in the green tech space as well, being slow and getting somewhere is better than going fast and then having a burnout. So, one of the things that I would tell myself when I just started would be slow is good. WILL: Even with coding and a lot of things in life, I feel like that's really good advice: slow is good. Slow down––enjoy the moment. So, I like that advice. VICTORIA: I was going to say, it sounds like a more sustainable pace for yourself also [laughs]. SANGHMITRA: Exactly. VICTORIA: Sustainability in the environment, and also in our own energy, and emotions, and motivation to get things done. So, I love that. WILL: I see what you did there [laughter]. VICTORIA: Yeah, [inaudible 30:40] all back. Do you have anything else that you'd like to promote? SANGHMITRA: I would really love to also tell people that I'm very open to communication. So, if anyone would like to reach out to me on LinkedIn, it would be really awesome, and we can get on a call as well. I have my Calendly link right on my profile, and I'm very open to communication. So, if there is someone who would like to talk to me about any of the things that interest them or probably something that they could advise me or I could learn from them, I'm more than open to do so. VICTORIA: Love that. And then, do you have any questions for me or Will? SANGHMITRA: So, in terms of the development part, I do have some questions, like, in the technical side. So, when it comes to the fact that we have to kind of calculate the eco actions of individuals in the future, we want to also see if we can calculate the daily actions that they do, for example, walking instead of taking a cab, or segregating their waste, et cetera. I wanted to know, in the future, I want to implement these features, but can we actually get a perfect product around it? Is that possible where we can track everything? WILL: Yeah. So, when you say track everything, like, I know you talked about walking and some of the different actions. Can you expound on that? SANGHMITRA: For example, instead of IoTs...because I know that some hotels they do use IoT devices to track the water consumption, and so on. However, on an individual level, how can we just track it through the smartphone or through the app that they have? Because, okay, walking can be tracked. This is actually one of the challenges I'm facing, so I want to just be open about it, and I'm very open to ideas also. If you have some ideas that I could experiment around, I would really love to. In terms of the activities like walking, waste disposal, and so on, do you think that there are some kind of features that we could implement to track these actions? One of the things that I was thinking about was we let people take a photo of how they are segregating the waste in the end, and through that, we can tell them, "Okay, this is great," and we give them the points. But how can we do it and also automate it at the same time? VICTORIA: So, one approach that I know when people work at thoughtbot on these types of issues and trying to figure out, like, what is the right feature? How are we going to implement this? Going through a product design sprint where you spend a week with a product designer and someone who can, you know, really quickly create MVPs. And you go through this process of figuring out what's the most important feature. And you're talking to users, and you're trying to...you're going through that discovery process in a short period. And we actually have a video series where we walk through every step of that process. But, like, for me personally, things that I can think of in my life that I would want to track one thing I've been trying to do more is actually electronic recycling, which in the U.S. my neighborhood is different. It's only open on, like, Thursdays and Saturdays. And I have to, like, really remember to go out there and, like, put my electronics out there. And I don't think it's very, like, well-known. So, I think that would be something interesting to, like, promote as possible. And we also have the green bins now, which are new, which allow you in California to, like, have composting. So, you have now your regular trash, your recycling, and your compost bins. So, actually, like, trying to use those and track them. Otherwise, one of the things I think about is, like, reducing the amount of plastic consumption, which includes things like, you know, when you buy toilet paper, it comes wrapped in plastic. How can I incentivize myself and my partner and even my family to, like, switch away from those types of products and get more into, you know, using towels instead of paper towels or finding alternative methods for getting those products while reducing the amount of plastic that comes with it? SANGHMITRA: That's super interesting. I'm really, really glad to have your insights as well. I do have a question for you. Have you worked with startups in the field of impact? And if so, what have been some of the ideas that you really loved to implement? VICTORIA: Yeah, actually, we had another guest on the Giant Robots podcast who I think you're connected with as well who created essentially, like, a GoFundMe but for environmental projects and in areas that, you know, a 5,000 grant to help do a beach cleanup could have a really big impact. Like funding programs and marketplace for those types of green projects in areas that are the most impacted by climate change and have the fewest resources to actually do anything about it. So, I thought that was really exciting in trying to figure out how can we use tech to solve problems for real people, and for people that don't typically get the focus or the majority of the funding, or the majority of time spent in those communities. So, that, I think, is what is really exciting: to see people come from those communities and then figure out how to build solutions to serve them. SANGHMITRA: That's really wonderful. Is there, like, a specific market where you have seen growth of such startups and companies more? The companies especially you have worked with in the past and in there in the field of impact, are they mostly from the U.S., or which are the markets they are from essentially? VICTORIA: Yeah. So, I mean, I'm from the U.S., so that's where I see the most. I'm in San Diego. So, when I go to, like, startup weeks and things like that, that's where I'm getting the majority of my exposure. I do also know that there is a Bloomberg Center focusing on excellence and data in the governments. And that's not just U.S.-based but going more global as well, so trying to teach civic leaders how they can use the data about whether it's sustainability or other issues that they're facing too, like, figure out how to prioritize their funding and in what projects they're going to invest in from there. So, I think that's really interesting. I don't know, I don't know what the answer is, but I know that there are some countries that are hoping to make the investments in sustainability and ecotourism, as opposed to allowing industry to come in and do whatever they want [laughs]. So, I don't know if that answers your question or not. SANGHMITRA: Yeah, I think it completely answers my question. Thank you for sharing that and also a bit more. WILL: There's so many things that I've learned through the podcast. So, I'm excited to see the impact it has. And I think you're doing an amazing job. VICTORIA: Thank you so much for coming on and being with us here today and sharing your story. SANGHMITRA: Thank you. WILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@ giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry. VICTORIA: And you can find me on Mastodon @thoughtbot.social@vguido. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.  AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.

Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido are joined by Zamina Karim, the CEO and Founder of Mevi, a community-driven motherhood wellness app designed to address the unique challenges of motherhood, especially in the context of the pandemic. Zamina shares her journey from experiencing postpartum anxiety and depression to founding Mevi. She discusses the lack of understanding and support for new mothers, especially during the pandemic when traditional support structures were unavailable. The conversation also touches on parenting challenges in the current era, underscoring the need for community and support. The app aims to revolutionize maternal health by fostering connections among mothers and providing support for the challenges of motherhood beyond medical visits. Zamina's approach to building Mevi is rooted in empathy, aiming to address new mothers' emotional and practical needs and fill a significant gap in current maternal health support. Zamina also talks about the broader implications of Mevi's mission, the evolving startup funding landscape, and the importance of pivoting and adapting in the entrepreneurial journey. She emphasizes the role of empathy in building inclusive experiences for parents and the potential of technology to improve maternal health outcomes. Mevi (https://www.getmevi.com/) Follow Mevi on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/getmevi/). Follow Zamina Karim on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/zaminasunderjikarim/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript:  WILL: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Zamina Karim, CEO and Founder of Mevi, the first-ever community-driven motherhood wellness app. Zamina, thank you for joining us. ZAMINA: Thank you so much for having me. VICTORIA: Well, outside of founding Mevi, what keeps you going? What's exciting for you right now in your world? ZAMINA: Well, I have a toddler. She is two turning three, and she keeps me incredibly active and stimulated throughout the day. And I have my hands full with her throughout the day. And outside of that, I've just jumped into the business full-time. So, I'm navigating solo foundership and recognizing how different of an experience that is when you have been working in a team environment for the last 15 years or so. So, that's kind of what's been keeping me busy the last few months. WILL: You mentioned your daughter. When you became a parent, I know there's something surprising; there's plenty. But what was the most surprising thing that you went through when you became a parent? ZAMINA: Oh my gosh, there were so many things. You're totally right, Will. But I think, for me, it was a really big emphasis that I noticed on the products that I would need to have. And if I had all of those products, I would be ready and I would be well on my way, and parenting would be a breeze. And it kicked me on my butt when I realized that having the perfect car seat and the perfect stroller was not setting me up for success. And there was a lot that I didn't know and didn't realize, even though I had done so much research and had a lot of other parents in my network. I think it's one of those things that you don't truly understand until you have experienced it yourself and you are living through it. VICTORIA: So, then, what led you to start Mevi? ZAMINA: Mevi was started because my baby was born during the pandemic, and I experienced a ton of challenges during that time. I struggled with symptoms of anxiety and depression for over a year. But I didn't really need any clinical diagnosis, and so no one knew how to help me in my family. And I did not know how to help myself either. And I really felt the Western sort of pressure of having to do it all. And I was quite frankly embarrassed by the struggles that I was experiencing. And, you know, you never really go back to your old self. But once she turned one, I started to feel a little bit more balanced. And I came out of my shell, and I started speaking with other women from all over the world really. And I learned very quickly that my experience was the norm and not the exception. And that really was the inspiration to go ahead and try to solve that problem. WILL: Yeah. I remember we had my middle child at the very beginning of July 2020. And the first thing that was rough is that was whenever they were like, "If you have COVID, we may have to separate you from your child when you have birth," and it was terrifying. And they ended up not doing that. We didn't have COVID or anything. But I remember, because we have three now, and I remember thinking, like, if I was a parent of a single child, it would have to be rough because, like, the child is not playing with anyone, and you're also by yourself. So, I totally relate with what you're saying. ZAMINA: Yeah, absolutely. And then, beyond that, all of those kinds of traditional childcare centers or places where people would congregate were shut down. And up here in Canada, a lot of those places haven't really opened back up, and so there was no real bounce back to a pre-pandemic norm. A lot of families are now just navigating with this as the new normal. So, I think it's really important to recognize that parenting in 2021 and beyond is really different from what it was pre-pandemic. VICTORIA: So, you had this acute need yourself to build a community to survive [laughs]. What in your background led you to think, oh, I could start a company around this; I could build the solution for this problem? ZAMINA: Yeah, it's actually a really interesting mix of personal and more technical and career-driven. So, on a personal level, I was born in India, and my parents are from East Africa. So, that cultural element really bleeds into my perspectives and my values on life, as well as what's missing in healthcare today, so this idea of taking a prevention-focused approach or addressing root causes rather than addressing symptoms, which is a lot more common in today's kind of healthcare context. And then, on a more career-based side, my background is in consumer tech, growth marketing. And I studied psychology and human development when I was in school. So, all of these areas really came together as the perfect combination for starting Mevi because I had this hard tech background. I know how to code. I self-taught Ruby on Rails about ten years ago. And then I'd worked in this consumer space, kind of selling things for companies like Masterclass, and Uber, and Lululemon, and Aritzia. And I had this experience on the paid acquisition side as well. So, all of those things really came together for me to feel equipped to step into this journey of building Mevi. But I think no matter what technical or kind of soft skills you have, it is still a huge climb when building a company from scratch and, in particular, when you're doing it as a solo founder. WILL: Wow, that's so amazing. I love your background, and I love especially talking to founders who have a technical background and kind of seeing how their journey was. Did your technical background help you in anything, or did you code your app? ZAMINA: I did not code the app. Because I was on the tech side over a decade ago, so I was building apps about ten years ago; it's one of those muscles where it can very quickly atrophy. And things now are developing at such a rapid pace compared to when I was in the space that I'm no longer someone who would be best suited to actually code the app. I would be spending a lot of time relearning versus just delegating that to somebody else. But I do possess the ability to talk to engineers and to be able to navigate some of the architecture and the fundamentals with them and that, for me, has been a really big game changer because I'm not completely lost when chatting with technical folks. And I can kind of navigate my way around with a little bit more ease than I would be able to if I didn't have that background. VICTORIA: Yeah. I want to talk about how you're thinking about building your team for the future and filling in those gaps that you may have since you have such a well-rounded background. But first, I wanted to go back to, what stage do you feel like you are in your product life cycle? Are you still in the discovery phase or you have an MVP? What's the phase you're at right now? ZAMINA: We are getting our MVP built right now. So, I've done about a year's worth of user interviews, research, chatting with folks all over the world, and really doing my best at validating the concept, and the idea, and the problem space. And one thing I will say is that the problem space is super clear. Famtech and femtech are places where there's a lot of capital being invested, and there's a lot of incredible innovation happening. But the solution is something that I think is always going to be evolving as needs of parents evolve. But right now, I have a pretty solid idea of what the product should be in its first iteration, and that is what we'll be launching with in 2024. And we'll be testing with some select partners. WILL: I'm so excited for you. Can you explain what is Mevi? What's the problem that you're looking to solve with it? ZAMINA: We are rooted in this belief that all of the negative symptoms, the stress, the mental health disorders that are experienced by moms stem from the isolation and lack of connection that they have to their communities. So, our mission is to really revolutionize maternal health by caring for the life that happens in between doctor's visits. Really, that is where life happens. And in doing so, we want to solve for those two specific root cause factors, emotional support and social isolation, that contribute the most to postpartum disorder. So, from a practical standpoint, what Mevi is really going to do is connect moms to their personalized support networks so that they can delegate things like critical care tasks, activities of daily living, support with things at home, as well as emotional and mental health support to their support network so that they can basically show up for them in the way that they most need. VICTORIA: That's really exciting. And to play that back a bit, it's interesting from your research and from your own experience that the thing that was missing was that element of community and connection to other people. Can you tell us more about that? ZAMINA: In today's world, moms are expected to do it all, and we're kind of conditioned to that regard in every aspect of our lives. And there's a lot of support lacking for moms from a childcare perspective, from a systemic support perspective around things like maternity leave. And, ultimately, I think we're kind of given these signals that we should be able to do it alone, so we should just go ahead and do that. And I think, for that reason, a lot of women really struggle because when they do ultimately step into parenthood, particularly in a post-pandemic context, they are incredibly overwhelmed, but they're getting all of these signals that they should be able to do it. And so, then they feel incredibly isolated and really struggle with those feelings. And so, what Mevi and what I, as a person and as a founder I'm really trying to address and bring attention to is this idea that women absolutely cannot do it alone. And that over the last, you know, 10,000 years, we have raised children, and we have also raised mothers with the support of villages. And those villages look different for different people, but that's really the case across the entire planet. And so, what I really want to do is to bring attention back to the fact that it's important to build your personal village and to be able to request support from them in the ways you need. WILL: Yeah. So, I was looking at your website when I was doing some research, and the very first, I guess, banner, you can call it, with a text message in it, there's a text message that's sent to the mom, and I'm guessing it's AI-driven. It's asking, "Hey. Out of these three options, what exactly do you need help in?" Can you walk me through what that looks like? Is it AI-driven that sends the text out and it has a list of friends and family that sends the text to, or how does that work? ZAMINA: Yeah. So, first big disclaimer is that what you see on the website was actually our alpha product that we tested up here in Canada with a cohort of new moms. And that was really built to validate the problem space and to understand if a solution like this would be impactful. And that was actually not AI-driven, believe it or not. It was largely built through automation tools and a database of text messages that yours truly wrote and connected with Twilio. So, it was really kind of strung together on the back-end prototype that we used to understand if getting help on tasks like this would be beneficial. We also were sending regular kind of positive reinforcement messages, just like, you know, resources, notes, things like that, to those moms just to give them kind of a daily positive reminder. But those text messages were also being sent, yes, to their support networks that they would sign up, so their partner, perhaps their mother, their mother-in-law, their sisters, their friends, so on and so forth. And we would determine which messages would go to whom. And through that test, we realized that there was kind of a really positive response to what this was trying to achieve but that it was quite limited in its functionality because it was hard coded on the backend, and there wasn't really a lot of AI leveraged. So, we are now moving into building out an MVP, which will be a mobile app. WILL: Wow. I can definitely see how this is beneficial because we have three kids, and my oldest and my youngest share the same birthday, so three kids in three years. And it seems like, oh, why are you asking that simple question? Sometimes, the simple question is exactly what you need. "Hey, how can I help?" And given choices, that is huge just to nudge what you need help. Because, like, I love my sleep and [chuckles] with kids, you don't really get sleep sometimes. And I used to remember everything, but my youngest has been dealing with earaches probably over the last month, and I am forgetting a lot just because [chuckles] I haven't been getting sleep. So, I love what you're doing. And the purpose and the problem you're trying to solve, I think is much needed. ZAMINA: Yeah, thank you so much. That point that you made about giving options is really important because, especially when you're encountering motherhood for the first time, it's quite daunting, and you don't really know what you don't know. And so, people will say, "Oh, you know, I'm here for you. Let me know how I can help." But that in and of itself is a huge barrier because you don't really know what to ask. You don't want to infringe on them. You don't want to make it inconvenient for them. And there's also boundaries that you want to set in terms of who you want to let into your home and let into your personal space and that kind of thing. So, I think it's really important to provide a little bit of education for new mothers around what kinds of things they can typically benefit from getting support with, particularly in the home in those early days. As an example, a lot of moms feel hesitant about letting others come into their home to hold their child. They actually would prefer that others come into the home and support them with the dishes or making a meal so that they can stay close to their baby, particularly in those early days when babies are feeding around the clock, and skin-to-skin contact is really important. And so, it's really important to provide that guidance, especially to new moms, so that they can share that with their support networks. But then also sharing that information with their support network so that they don't feel insulted or they don't feel bad when their requests for support are directed in a different way. So, through Mevi, we also hope to provide that education and that guidance to everybody that's in the network so that they understand how to be helpful. Because I think at the end of the day, a lot of our friends and our families genuinely want to be there for us, but they just don't know how. And so, we're really there to be those coaches for them. MID-ROLL AD: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build, and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Liftoff brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow today. Get in touch at thoughtbot.com/liftoff. VICTORIA: I'm curious about...I think it's a hashtag on your LinkedIn profile for empathetic tech. Based on what you're describing, how does that relate to what you're building and how you build empathy into the technology and products? ZAMINA: I am so committed to proving that we can build great businesses that do good in the world, that support women's health outcomes but are still businesses at the end of the day and make great revenue and great profits. When I came out into the space, and I kind of said, "Okay, I'm here, and I'm building this thing," particularly because I'm solving a problem for mothers, I often got met with this question of "Well, is it a nonprofit?" And no, absolutely not. It is not a nonprofit. It is intended to be a scalable business. But I think a lot of people have a misunderstanding that if you're building something that is good for the world, that it won't generate revenue and profit. And so, from an empathetic tech standpoint, that's really something that I am kind of on a mission to prove through Mevi and through my own kind of personal endeavors. It's something that's really close to my heart. And I really, really want to put femtech on the map for that reason. And from a product standpoint, I mean, we have lots of ideas about how we can build that empathy directly into the product. But I think the biggest thing is coaching moms to be vulnerable in ways that feel accessible to them. Again, back to this idea that women are expected to do it all and moms are expected to do it all, I think if we can start to nudge moms to sharing with their closed private networks of, you know, the handpicked people that they've put into their support networks about how they're feeling, what they need help with, you know, their mood day to day, those kinds of things, we can start to build more empathy, both in the context of that particular family, but in the broader context of motherhood as a whole. WILL: Why do you think they automatically go to, "Oh, it's a nonprofit business," when you're talking about the mental health of women and anything in that category? ZAMINA: I haven't figured it out yet [laughs], but in part, it feels like it's a social endeavor. "Oh, you're here to solve your own problem." And yes, I'm here to solve my own problem, but really, this is the problem of women across Canada, and the States, parts of Europe, and in Australia, and New Zealand. And so, it's not just a small niche problem. But I think a lot of people who I've encountered, particularly in the earlier days of when I had just kind of come up on the scene, I was talking with a lot of people who didn't resonate because either they were male. They didn't have children. They weren't familiar with healthtech or femtech. And so, for them, they were like, "I don't understand this space. It must not be very big. It must not be very important," but it's quite the contrary. VICTORIA: What other challenges have you faced so far on your journey? ZAMINA: The other big one, honestly, is the fact that I'm a solo founder. For the last 15, 20 years, I have been working with people day in and day out, and, you know, whether it's in office or remotely, I had the option to kind of jam with them throughout the day on different problems. And in this particular journey, I don't really have that in the same way that I have been familiar with for, you know, my entire career. So, that has been a huge learning curve for me. And I have really recognized that the journey of entrepreneurship is just as much of a mental one as it is everything else, and finding ways to cope with the kind of emotional ups and downs as you get lots of wins. But you also get doors closed in your face. All of those things require an immense amount of grit and resilience. And when you are going at it alone, it can be a little bit harder to navigate that. But I'm slowly starting to really find my rhythm. And I've really managed to do that, I think, in large part due to an advisory board that I have built of people who are really looking to support me, who are bullish on the mission, who believe that this is a really big problem that deserves to be solved, and are helping to clear roadblocks and obstacles, both, you know, in the environment, but also for me when I get in my own head about things. And that has been really, really powerful for me is, kind of building that advisory board of people. WILL: Since we're talking about hurdles, what are some of the hurdles you see in the future? Since we talked about your past ones and your current ones, do you see any on the future—on the horizon? ZAMINA: Yeah, I mean, obviously, there's the kind of traditional ones of finding product-market fit and landing the product with that ideal customer. And so, I'm really excited about the work that's being done right now to get there. But, obviously, it's going to be a constant, you know, road of iteration and evolution on the product space. And that is one that I'm really excited about. But I think the other bigger one is just the consumer landscape right now is a tough one to be in. Capital is drying up from an investment standpoint. And I've seen a lot of founders who are farther ahead in their journey, who have incredible results, that are growing rapidly year on year, and they are struggling to raise money. And they've got traction, really, really great traction. So, at this stage, it's really important for me to find ways to self-fund and bootstrap through this period, which ultimately, I think is going to give me a competitive advantage. It's going to give every founder who's doing the same thing a competitive advantage in the long run because I believe that if you can get traction in this environment, you're truly building a really great business. But I do see that this area of capital being one that founders are really going to have to navigate for the next year or two. VICTORIA: That resonates with some stories that we've heard as well. And I'm curious to hear you talk about the discovery process a little bit more. Was there anything that you discovered early on that caused you to pivot in strategy? ZAMINA: So, I joined a pre-accelerator in San Francisco late 2023. And we built this vision of the MVP that I was really excited about. And as I was getting ready to think about actually building it out, what I realized was that in the feature set that we had built out, we were trying to do way too much. I had this vision of what Mevi could be ten years from now, and I was almost trying to build that in in an MVP. And so, one of the big pivots that I made from a product perspective was really, really dialing it back and simplifying the feature set to really what I believed and what I had heard from folks would be the most impactful for them rather than, you know, squeezing in a bunch of other things that would be kind of beneficial or a value-add in the long run. I really wanted to ensure that when we did launch and when we do launch that, people really understand what we're here to do. And then, over time, as we get more and more consumer feedback, of course, we can continue to build the product in the direction that folks are desiring. But that was an early pivot. And another one was more on the business model side, and this is one that I'm still kind of workshopping and working through with different folks. But this idea of going direct to consumer versus actually going to other companies and other businesses who serve this population of new mothers and actually selling the product to them, and then having them use it in their different contexts as they serve their clients. And so, we've kind of pivoted our business model from B2C to B2B2C, which, even in doing so over the last month, has really, really gotten a lot of very positive signals that that is kind of the right approach to be making in the short term. And then, of course, you know, again, once we launch and we get that consumer feedback, we will continue to explore and expand other business models. But early on, I was just trying to do a lot. And in both of those pivots, I found some focus, and I'm really, really excited by that. WILL: That's awesome. I love how you said pivoting. I think that's probably the core to having a successful business, knowing when to pivot, knowing when not to. What does success look like for you in, like, the next six months, you know, five years, especially when...I know you have a launch coming up. You're talking about raising capital. You kind of pivot on your business plans a little. What does it look like to be successful in that timeframe? ZAMINA: In the next few months, success is really just going to be doing what we say we're going to do and putting an app out into the market and having it really be tested with some hand-picked partners who are also innovating in the maternal health space. I really believe in aligning with people who believe deeply in solving this problem. And I think that's just the low-hanging fruit as well from a business standpoint. And so, over the next six months, that's really what I'll be prioritizing. And then, over the next, gosh, five, seven years, I really want it to be a full suite of features and tools that moms can leverage through a mobile platform. I really want it to be kind of, like, the Flo app [chuckles] for mothering, a household name that is doled out, you know, from OBGYNs who are saying, "Oh, hey, you should check this out now that you're pregnant," used by doula practices or midwife institutes, circulated among friends as the must-have app to have on your phone when you find out that you're pregnant. Obviously, that is a really, really lofty goal. But I do believe that there is a pretty big gap in this market, and I'm excited to try to fill it. VICTORIA: How do you balance having ambitious goals against also needing to maintain your life and your life as a parent? ZAMINA: I have a really incredible support system. My husband is an entrepreneur as well. And really, my career over the last ten years allowed him to pursue his entrepreneurial dreams, and he's absolutely killing it. And so, he kind of said to me, "Hey, it's your turn. I really want to give you the space to try this thing out and see where it can go. I really believe in it." I have him kind of in my corner every day, cheering me on and giving me a lot of space to learn and, grow and pivot from time to time. But I also think that he's really great from a financial standpoint and helping me kind of navigate, you know, these goals and understanding kind of the revenue potential of the business and those kinds of things. And so, I have a really great balance of, you know, me being kind of pie in the sky, head in the clouds, really, really aspirational about what I'm building. And he does two things really great. He kind of brings me back to earth sometimes, but he also has a really, really great financial acumen that he lends to the business. And so, he's really kind of my champion and has allowed me to pursue this. WILL: I'm so glad that you have a supportive partner. That could be a make-it or break-it a lot of times. It's just someone in your corner that you can trust and know that they have your back. I think that's just huge. ZAMINA: Yeah, absolutely. I'm super lucky. WILL: What motivates you? What makes you...because being an entrepreneur is not easy. It's a lot of long hours, a lot of sleepless nights at times. So, what motivates you to want to be an entrepreneur? ZAMINA: I really want to leave the world in a better place than I found it. I spent a lot of time in my career, particularly on the marketing side, selling people things. And some of those things were great, and some of those things were absolutely things that they did not need. And I think once I became a parent, my perspective on life really shifted. And I realized that I wanted to spend my time doing something that I could be proud of but that would also, you know, do good in the world. I'm fueled by this idea that I'm building in a space that has kind of been underserved for decades and, that I'm solving a real-world tangible problem, and that I have a lot of people who have provided some incredible guidance, feedback, support along the way, who are validating the journey that we're on. And so, all of those things kind of, you know, fuel me in that way. And then, I think from a practical standpoint, just being able to build and design my life in the way that, you know, excites me, being able to spend time with my family, to have that flexibility. You know, in these early days, I don't have a lot of that because I'm spending a lot of time in the business, but I'm excited by the opportunity that it will present in the long run. VICTORIA: That's really exciting. And it reminds me just about what are your core values, and what values drive your everyday decisions? ZAMINA: I think it's really the one around the desire to leave the world in a better place. Again, when my daughter was born, I just saw things in a really different way. You know, I think I had been largely ignorant to a lot of that and not to the fault of my own. I think it's just one of those things that you don't really understand until you become a parent. You see how difficult it is to obtain childcare. You see how predatory it can be when it comes to consumption around toys, and products, and nutrition. And there's just a lot of things that become apparent to you that you don't really realize. And so, anything that I do and anyone that I align myself with is really centered around this idea and this desire to leave the world in a better place than I found it. WILL: Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I wish there were so many more resources out there because it's a hard thing to do. So, I really am glad that you're doing this. And it kind of leads into my next question. Do you have any advice for building an inclusive experience for parents? ZAMINA: If you spend any time on social media, you will see that people are very quick to dole out advice and to have comments on how other people choose to do things in their families, particularly in the context of, you know, female and motherhood-based content creators. And, honestly, the biggest thing that's missing when those kinds of things happen is empathy. A lot of the times, we feel maybe a little bit insecure, or we feel worried that decisions that we're making are not good, or we feel worried about being judged. And so, maybe we shift that onto other people. We project that onto other people. And what I've just seen come up time and time again is if everyone could just see the fact that everyone's struggle is very unique to their individual context. You never know what other families might be dealing with. You don't understand, you know, what difficulties they might be having at work, what difficulties they might be having with childcare, what their financial situation is. And all of that informs their decision-making, and everyone's just doing the best that they can. You know, when it comes to how we engage with other parents on social media, how we engage with other parents in real life, at work, in products, it's really just about trying to bridge the gap through empathy. And that's obviously way, way easier said than done. But I think it's really important because sometimes we just need that window to get the glance into other people's lives to really understand, oh, I should maybe, you know, keep that particular opinion to myself or maybe not be so judgmental in this particular context? And so, yeah, I think that's the biggest piece of advice that I have just for anyone that is navigating life in any context with a parent. VICTORIA: That's really helpful. Thank you. And it's, like, leading with empathy again, right? ZAMINA: Absolutely. Yeah [laughs]. The commonality here is absolutely leading with empathy. VICTORIA: Well, wonderful. I've really enjoyed our conversation so far. Is there anything else that you would like to promote? ZAMINA: Two quick things. Like I said, we are getting ready to launch in the middle of the year, so I'm really excited for that. And if anyone listening is excited by the mission, you can sign up for our waitlist at getmevi.com. Again, disclaimer, the website is a little bit out of date. It needs some work. But the wait list is very much active and works just fine. So, it'd be great to capture your intention there. And then, you can also follow us on Instagram @getmevi. VICTORIA: Wonderful. And also, do you have any questions for me or Will? ZAMINA: Gosh, yeah, I mean, I would love to understand kind of what patterns are you seeing in terms of what founders are building right now? Have you noticed kind of any underlying trends that you think would be valuable to share? VICTORIA: Well, I can talk about my experience connecting to the San Diego community, startup and founders community. So, it is interesting. I think what you mentioned earlier about trying to bootstrap as much as you can and do it yourself as much as you can. I've seen founders show an interest in learning more about low-code tools and using those to prove out their MVP and prove out their concept and go from there. There's always shifts in the investment, right? So, people, I think, are even more going to fall into their similar patterns for what they choose to invest in and take less risks. It's trending upward again, and we're starting to see some signs of investment picking up again. You know, being in San Diego is an interesting place because we're right next to Tijuana, and you can be in Mexico in 30 minutes from my house or 45, depending on traffic. And there's just a lot of opportunity to do all different types of startups around here: biotech startups and startups that help you predict if breast cancer is going to come back. And there's also just all kinds of interesting things going on with actual physical products as well and treating products as more of a startup-type model. So, that's what I see going around here. But, Will, what do you think? WILL: Yeah, I was actually thinking about probably the last two or three podcast episodes that I recorded, it was around parenting and motherhood. So, I think that's a good thing because, like you said, it's an underserved area, but it's amazing to see what that community is doing. And I think it's going to be so good, especially in the next couple of years. After talking to those founders and even yourself, the pandemic, I think, encouraged a lot of that growth in that area. So, I think we're going to see a lot of growth in that area, and I'm excited about it. ZAMINA: Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with both of those things. And I think the no-code one is one in particular that will fuel a lot of innovation, not only in this industry but across tech as a whole. I'm seeing some really, really great advancements happening and making it a lot easier for solo non-technical founders or just non-technical people in general to prototype things very, very quickly. VICTORIA: Absolutely. And then, the tools to build products that are really compliant and mature and ready for healthtech and FinTech. There's also so much more out there available to give people the resources they need to do it right. So, it's really interesting. And yeah, I think, like you said, with COVID, too, the acceptance of virtual healthcare and the need for virtual communities, and that's not gone away [laughs]. There are still some people who won't want to re-engage in-person events and community building, so... ZAMINA: Yeah, this is kind of the new normal for us, and we've got to figure out how do we maintain our well-being and how do we maintain different types of social connectivity in this world that is becoming increasingly interpersonally independent? So, I think even AI and, you know, the Apple Vision Pro has really sparked conversations around what's going to happen to in-person interaction if everyone is wearing these massive devices on their faces? And I think, at this point, we can only imagine. But I do think it's a very practical and real thing that we should be solving for today and not just be waiting until we're all wearing these massive devices to recognize that we need to solve for that connectivity between all of us. VICTORIA: Have you tried out a Vision Pro yet? ZAMINA: I have not. Have you? VICTORIA: No, I haven't tried it. And I haven't ever talked to anyone who is using it. So, I'm curious. One of these days. ZAMINA: I've met a few people, or I know a few people who have tried it, mixed reviews. Obviously, the cost is a big prohibitive factor at the moment. But I think that there's the novelty around the device, which makes it really exciting right now. But I don't really see, like, in my life any practical use cases. You know, even if it was cheaper, if it was the product that it is today and the price was even half of what it is, I still don't really understand how I would benefit from it, but I'm definitely curious to see where it goes. VICTORIA: Yeah. Like, I want the ability to, like, have a big screen without having a physical screen, but I don't want to wear goggles. ZAMINA: Totally. VICTORIA: I also get nauseous. Like, I actually tried to do a virtual hangout during COVID, and I got some 3D, whatever, virtual glasses. And I got so [chuckles] nauseous so fast. I was like, this isn't...why does anyone enjoy this? And apparently, that's something that happens to women more than men because of hormones. ZAMINA: Oh, that is so interesting. I did not know that. VICTORIA: But I really enjoyed our conversation today. Thank you again so much for joining us. WILL: I'm so excited for your launch and your product. I think it's going to make a huge impact in that area. And I just can't wait to see where it goes. And thank you for building it and stepping out and taking that leap to do it. ZAMINA: Oh yeah. Thank you both so much. It was a really great conversation, and yeah, I'm excited to get launched and excited to stay in touch and see what we do from here. VICTORIA: Yeah, we'll have to bring you back in a year and see how things have progressed. ZAMINA: Yeah. Let's do it. Let's pencil that in [laughs]. WILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry. VICTORIA: And you can find me @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.

Host Will Larry is joined by Priyanka Mahajan, the founder of Ammi, a startup dedicated to supporting new and expectant parents with expertise, support, and community. The conversation highlights the challenges of parenting, the absence of a universal parenting manual, and how Ammi seeks to provide a personalized co-pilot for parents navigating the early stages of parenthood. Priyanka shares her journey from a career in strategy consulting and corporate roles across different countries to founding Ammi, driven by personal experiences and the desire to make a meaningful impact on parents' lives. Priyanka discusses the core challenges she faced as a parent, such as dealing with the loss of control, the transition to motherhood, and the importance of acknowledging and navigating the mental and emotional shifts that come with it. She introduces the concept of "matrescence," likening it to adolescence, as a significant, yet underdiscussed, transition into parenthood. Priyanka's personal struggles with anxiety and the impact on her parenting led to the realization of the need for support and resources for parents, particularly in the areas of mental health and emotional well-being. Ammi's mission is to fill the gaps in the current parenting support ecosystem by providing accessible expert advice and resources. Priyanka emphasizes the importance of mental health, the creation of a supportive community, and the development of a digital platform tailored to modern parents' needs. Finally, she outlines the challenges and opportunities ahead, including fundraising, product development, and establishing trust with parents. Ammi (https://www.joinammi.com/) Follow Ammi on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/joinammi/), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@joinammi), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/Join.Ammi/), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/join_ammi). Follow Priyanka Mahajan on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/priyanka-mahajan-0167852/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. And with me today is Priyanka Mahajan, Founder of Ammi, a startup that provides expertise, support, and community to new and expectant parents. Priyanka, thank you for joining me today. PRIYANKA: Will, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. WILL: Yeah. I'm so excited to talk to you about parenting. Anytime I get to talk about parenting, I light up, so I can't wait to talk to you about it, pick your brain, and just hear any advice you have for me. PRIYANKA: [laughs] That's great. It's always nice to talk to people who get the challenges, so very happy to dive into it. WILL: Yeah, definitely. Me and my wife we always talk about we wish kids came with a manual because you just don't know what you're going to get. Out of my three kids, they're all not even close to being similar in any way. PRIYANKA: No, that's totally right. You know, this manual that most people or most parents wish for after their kids are born doesn't quite exist. And it's also deeply personal, and that's exactly what you mentioned about your kids being different. But each parenting experience and, you know, giving birth is different. Each birth is different. Your body is different. So, all of that is quite deeply personal. And that's essentially what we want to do with Ammi is be able to provide this co-pilot to expectant and new parents to guide and help them through that early phase. WILL: Yeah, oh, I can't wait. Before we dive in too deep, can you tell us a little bit about who you are, your background, and kind of how you got to this place? PRIYANKA: So, first thing, I suppose, is I am Indian. I was born and raised in India, and I've lived in about four countries, including the U.S., and now live in London. I started my career in the strategy consulting area and then moved into internal strategy roles for telecoms and tech industry. And I had my children through that period of working for big corporates and essentially, you know, was busy climbing the corporate ladder or moved into different roles. I have headed teams in marketing, in commercial, in other areas like operations. And eventually ended up being a director of strategy for the EMEA region for this large American telecoms company. And it was then that COVID struck and essentially that's basically where there were big, large life events, which I'm happy to get into later. But essentially, I resigned from my role and decided to focus on more meaningful ventures. So, here I am [laughs]. WILL: Yeah. So, were there any challenges having a career and having children? There were challenges. PRIYANKA: That's right. WILL: What were some of the challenges that you faced? PRIYANKA: I had my kids really close together. I had a very difficult birth the first time around. I had a very easy pregnancy but a difficult birth. And especially for parents and, you know, women who are mothers, who are giving birth and previously have had this illusion of control, and, you know, being organized and in control and being on top of everything to suddenly not having anything in your control because that's what kids are like. And not having that acknowledged and, you know, you still expect to do everything in a certain way, and you want to sort of do everything right. And that's just not how parenting is. There's no one right way, and it's okay to make mistakes, but also, equally, it's important to not know that you're failing. And I think that was a challenge that I had equally. You know, I went back into work part-time. And here in the UK, I had a fairly generous maternity leave policy, which was great. But also, having to sort of think about putting my career on a bit of a back burner while my kids took priority was a transition. And just making that transition mentally, emotionally, physically in your life and making space for this new world is quite challenging as, you know, you're sort of grieving the life you had. But you're also embracing what's here and being surprised by it and figuring out who you are. And that the term, actually, is known as matrescence, right? So, it's this process as we have adolescence. It's becoming a parent. It's, you know, its own transition. And I don't think that's been talked about enough, certainly not when I had my kids. So, I wasn't actually aware that that's what I was going through. I just kept thinking that I'm failing. And I think those memories and that experience was deeply embedded in my sort of process. And I went on to, you know, sort of do other things and go back into my career. And I never really dealt with the emotions that I felt at that stage of my early parenting journey. And it really all came to light sort of when Ammi was born and hatched in the incubator that I did after I resigned from my corporate role at ZINC, where, you know, the focus was on children and young people's mental health. And in that, I sort of, like, started to research the space and go like, where do you actually start with children and young people? And you start with the parents at that very early stage. So, that's sort of, like, what led me to almost kind of revisit my own experiences in that phase and think, you know, there was something there. And if we had probably done things differently, maybe the outcomes might have been different for our family, the way that we did things or the way that we dealt with each other in those early years. Because the other thing I learned as well while I was doing my research in that space, which I didn't know at the time when I had my kids, is that children have their emotional development take place pretty much by the time from zero to three years of age. So, it's a very significant period of sort of secure attachment, as we call it, and things. So, that's, again, a lot of concepts that I wasn't familiar with, and I wish that I was kinder to myself. And that's basically what I want to do for the community that I'm supporting through Ammi. WILL: That is such a good point because my oldest son he has a lot of tendecies that are like mine. So, we're a lot alike, and I find that mental health aspect of that, like, how can I help him the most? How can I help him to where he doesn't have the same failures I have? Like, it's not easy being a parent because it's like, do I step in? Do I not? Do I let him fail? Do I not let him fail? So, like, and like you said, I think parenting is probably one of the most lonely things you can go through at times, depending on who's around you, if you have family around you, friends that have children, or not. So, I'm so glad that you said that you're diving into that mental health aspect also. PRIYANKA: Yeah, that's a key pillar of what we do and what we're building essentially at Ammi. So, the mental health aspect is one that isn't really talked about, and there's a lot of stigma and shame associated with that, in that early stage especially. And the figures itself are astounding, you know, in the UK itself, it's 1 in 3 mothers experience perinatal mental health issues. In the U.S., I think it's 1 in 5. And 1 in 10 dads experience mental health issues. And there is a certain shame in addressing that. You're meant to be happy, and you're meant to be blessed. And which is true, you are blessed, and, you know, there are moments of happiness. But this is a massive transition that you're going through. And it's an interesting word you used as well: lonely. So, in our research and interviews with the countless scores of, you know, tens of moms that we have interviewed, the most common word was isolation. It's exactly that. Like, it can feel like a very isolating experience without the village or the community that kids were meant to be raised under and parents were meant to be supported through that. But that is no longer the case in the way that we live today. And that's where there's an opportunity to provide that to parents in a way that works with our modern lives as well. So, for example, what we're doing at Ammi with the mental health particularly is we have developed an evidence-based solution based on acceptance and commitment therapy, which is essentially an incredible sort of modality of therapy that addresses life changes in particular. It helps you figure out your values and your parenting values and helps you set goals and actions in line with those values. So, you feel like you have meaning even though your life is changing, and it still feels significant. And now, of course, you're in charge of a child. So, how do you ensure that you're not losing yourself but equally you're bringing your own values to your parenting? I just found it fascinating. And we're doing this in a digital way. We're doing this in a way that works for the modern parent. So, it's bite-sized. It's on your phone. You can interact with it in the middle of the night when you're feeding the baby, or you're, you know, sort of up at the odd hours of the morning with your child. That's essentially, like, what we're doing with that particular mental health piece. WILL: That is so good because I think even you said the values, like, I think we forget about that easily. And that is everything we do, like, the way we talk to our kids, the way we're raising them, the way we discipline them, what school they're going to. But I think so many times we run out of mental headspace to even talk about those things and to write them down. So, oh, that's so good that you go through that, and you help them discover what their values are because I think sometimes, as parents, you can lose that. Even if you had the values before you had kids, it's easy to lose those values and to remember why you're doing it. PRIYANKA: That's right. And, you know, in some cases, you know, you forget, and you don't even know really what your values might be, right? Like, you're just kind of doing things because you think you should. And should is a dangerous word as well because it's sort of, how do you uncover what it is that you really want to do as well? And what's authentic to you as an individual and as a parent? So, for example, I'll give you one, like, structure, right? Like, I, as a parent, can get so hung up on structure as a value. I forget about connection. And, actually, if I had to, like, sort of rank these, you know, connection would be higher on my list, personally. And it's like, why am I not acting on that? And so, what values essentially do is give you this compass in terms of, like, deciding what course of action to take and how you prioritize things. And, equally, it's also important to note that, you know, values do shift and change. So, we say in this world that it's imagine that you're looking at a globe, and a globe sort of, like, spins. And there may be some values that are topical now, but others that come to fore. So, you've got to, like, hold them lightly as well and acknowledge that they do shift. And all of this may seem sort of a bit indulgent to talk and think about, but, actually, it's really relevant in your day-to-day and also in the way that you live, you work, you parent. It's all very relevant. And I think it's important to bring light to that in the parenting context as well. WILL: That's really, really good. So, I wanted to kind of dive deeper into those pillars you're talking about. I know you said mental health was one. What are some of the other pillars that you cover? PRIYANKA: You know, the other thing that I've lived through and I've discovered in my, you know, research with my community and with my parents is it's one thing to sort of work on yourself, right? But if the system around you is a bit broken, it's not all in your control. So, what we want to do as well is, like, fill some of those gaps that currently exist in the system. So, for example, you know, here in the UK, since COVID especially, and for a few years before then, you know, we rely on the public healthcare system. And there have been significant challenges with funding there, which means that a lot of the support that was available to birthing parents, to birthing people are just not available anymore. There's no continuity of care, the kind of support you could expect in terms of checks and, you know, seeing the same person, for example, seeing the same midwife. That just doesn't exist anymore. So, what you end up having is a lot of parents who are trying to do their best, but essentially scrambling around looking for solutions, whether that's, like, for sleep, or breastfeeding, or nutrition and taking care of their baby. And that is what essentially results in those feelings of failure. So, what we want to do at Ammi is actually provide that practical expertise as well in the most accessible way. For example, here you could go private. You could see these experts privately, but that's really expensive. And there's nothing really available in the middle, I mean, apart from, like, the free Instagram reels and things. So, what we want to do is be able to provide, again, convenient formats where you can directly access these experts. And what I mean by that is, and what we already do here at Ammi, is we run online workshops with these experts, and these are currently actually free for parents to join. So, we rope in experts who are equally passionate about this. So, they could be experts in pediatrics, or they could be experts in physical and maternal health and wellness, but also infant health and wellness. And they run these sessions for us, and parents can join and essentially interacting live. It happens usually after bedtime, so when parents can attend. And that's one format. What we also want to build within our digital solution is a way for parents to access these experts on chat, text messaging, as well as book appointments with them, but, like, they may be shorter form appointments, so they're not as expensive. And it's virtual, which, again, cuts out the cost of actually having to see the expert in an office or in a space that is charged, so that helps with some of the cost. Equally, it helps to have experts who can do this on their downtime on chat format. So, that also helps with the cost. So, we're trying to experiment with these different formats that also work from a parent standpoint of convenience. So, you're not taking time off work to see these experts. So, you're not doing that in, like, daytime hours or when your baby's sleeping. So, it's really about convenience and accessibility. WILL: That sounds really good. I like the access to the people that know what they're talking about, especially late at night and things like that. That sounds so amazing because there's so many times that, like, I remember whenever, Cruz, he's my oldest, he just wasn't feeding with Katie. And we were like, we don't know why. And the first couple of weeks, I think we went into a doctor's office, like, three or four times just to make sure that he got back up to his birth weight. And it was scary. It was like, are we doing anything wrong? Like, what do we have to do to get him to this place and stuff like that? So, I think sometimes it's just like, "Hey, you're doing the right thing." Like we had one pediatrician...we moved from North Carolina to Florida, and we kind of miss our old pediatrician. Because when we walked in, she was just like, "Hey, he's healthy. I could tell he's healthy, and you're doing all the things right." It was almost like a weight lifted off our backs just to hear like, "Hey. You're doing okay." So, that's good to hear that you're providing that to parents and stuff. You say you're based in London. PRIYANKA: Right. WILL: And I'm just being honest; I have no idea what the medical situation looks like there. Can you explain what that looks like? Because I know what it looks like in the U.S. But I don't want to be naive and say, "Oh, it's the same." What does it look like when you say someone can't have access to a private provider? PRIYANKA: So, it's not that they can't have access. So, historically, in a lot of countries in Europe and here in the UK, we have what is called the National Healthcare System or the NHS. And, essentially, what that means is that your healthcare is covered by the state, which is incredible, actually that, you know, you don't really need to spend on private insurance or private healthcare. So, for most parents, including myself, I gave birth both times through the NHS. What that means is that, you know, you sort of, like, you get into the system. You go to your GP. You don't actually get a pediatrician, which is also something that I wasn't used to in India, but there's no pediatricians. And they have a system that you go through. So, you know, you get assigned a hospital, or you can choose a hospital that's local, but generally, you get assigned to a hospital. And you sort of give birth there under their condition. So, there's not a lot of agency and that, I guess, is the key word because you are under the healthcare system. And essentially, that is the majority. The overwhelming majority of people give birth that way in the UK. I think 12% of the UK has private insurance cover. But equally, even if you have private insurance cover, which means that you can choose your medical care or you can, you know, sort of reimburse, get reimbursed, and things, a lot of them don't actually cover giving birth because it's not a medical condition. So, you have to pay for that privately, and it does cost quite a significant sum of money if you want to go private. And there's just a few hospitals, actually, in London. There's not that many hospitals outside of London that do this either. So, it's not a very accessible option for most people because it's expensive, and there just aren't enough places that do that. So, in terms of that continuity of care, you have your GP, but, you know, the GP, essentially, has 10 minutes per appointment. So, you don't get a lot of time with your healthcare provider. And equally, when you have your midwife appointments to the NHS now, you don't see the same person, so, you know, through your scan. So, it's generally someone different. You might get lucky and see the same person. So, it's quite intimidating, I have to say, you know, you don't know really, like, what you can, cannot ask for. It's not very clear what your rights are, even though, you know, they do try their best. But because of the funding shortages now and the way that the system is going, people really are struggling to access care to the level. I mean, even, you know, the midwives are leaving the NHS. There's 29 out of 30 midwives leave the NHS after two years of training, which is shocking given, you know, the investment that they make in time. So, it is getting pretty dire, and people's birth stories are just getting quite horrific. And it's become commonplace. It's not unusual anymore, where it used to be quite unusual. You know, there's this perfect storm building right now here in the UK of people who are struggling to get the care they need. And paternity services, in particular, are also suffering quite a lot. And there's this dearth of services, right? And people are starting, like, there are a lot of, like, sort of, like, now smaller companies coming up, trying to, like, fill in this gap through employee benefits, which is one of the routes that we plan to take to market as well. But also, birth coaches is, you have the birthing coaches and doulas. And this is a very small market here in the UK, but it's growing in, like, triple digits year on year. So, it's really interesting to see the private world is stepping up or is trying to step up to the challenges of what the public system isn't able to do anymore. Does that help, or [chuckles] does it sort of give you some context? WILL: Yes, that helps tremendously because here, where I'm at, it's mostly employee benefits, and it's more private. We still have so many issues because I was thinking what you're doing. I was like, oh, that's so helpful, even with what we're dealing with, but it sounds like even next level. Like, I can't imagine taking my kid to the doctor and seeing a different doctor every single time because sometimes that's part of the helpfulness is they're like, "Oh, we know your kid. We know what they're going through. And, actually, I probably treated them the last time they were in here, so I kind of know." Because even if you have notes, it's tough to understand exactly what you saw. Yeah, I could see the benefits of what you're doing. So, that's amazing. PRIYANKA: Yeah, that's right. And equally, like, with the employee benefits now, this is one of the benefits. The top five benefits that employees want from their employers is more family support and more time around that. And we're also seeing in terms of, you know, employee retention, right? And keeping the gender pay gap at the minimum. It's about retaining also your, you know, female employees, especially mothers who tend to leave the workforce after having children, even here in the UK. I know it's actually a lot worse in the U.S., is my understanding. But even here in the UK where you do get more benefits in terms of maternity leave, it's still the cost of childcare. And there are so many other issues about just not having that support system that completely sort of overwhelm the families for one of them to have to drop their career, which is unfortunate. So, I think there is definitely a play here for employers to step up here in the UK and in Europe to this challenge of retaining their employees through benefits such as this. Mid-Roll Ad: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what’s important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode. WILL: What are some other ideas that you have? What does success look like in the next six months, five years for you? Where are y'all going? PRIYANKA: Well, in the next six months, I think it's really about getting the product to market, like, getting our MVP and product out there. You know, we're doing things in a very scrappy way at the moment. I am, for all practical purposes, a solo founder, and I've been bootstrapping. What we have developed, you know, with my fractional team of clinicians and my CTO is we have a really high-spec figma prototype of what our solution would look like. We have our content ready and the mental health, the evidence-based mental health program ready. It's now about getting that on a platform, and that is going to require some funding. So, I'm in the process of fundraising. So, ideally, in six months, we would have raised enough money to get that MVP out and to get this product in the hands of our customers, our customers being potentially employers. But also, you know, within the Ammi community, I've also been building a community as I've been running these online sessions and creating that side of content as well on the practical expertise side. And we've got about 500-plus parents around London who have attended our workshops, and most of them are part of this community. And, you know, they're the ones that we've sort of tapped on for our testing. For also the content that we developed, we handed it over to them and, you know, we ran a trial and with some great results. So, that's basically the kind of work that we've done so far over the last year. And, really, in the next six months, it's about getting the product out, raising some money, and, yeah, hopefully, being revenue-generating. So [laughs], it's a lot to look forward to, a lot to do. WILL: It sounds like that's that next heel, the next step, so...and it sounds fun. You help parents with their core values. What are some of the core values that you use and that you have that you make decisions through every day? PRIYANKA: It's about authenticity. That's the guiding principle. It's about being authentic to our mission, being authentic to what the customer wants, you know, first and foremost, and authentic to what my vision for Ammi is, which is to be that co-pilot in those early years. And how that sort of helps me is even when I look at funding, and I look at the type of funding or who we, you know, want money from, I know that, you know, sort of, we can't really dictate that at this point. But I really don't want there to be a risk of mission drift from what we're trying to do here. I've lived that life before where I've done things to just sort of tick the boxes. And I do genuinely think that there is a commercial opportunity here as well within the mission that we're trying to achieve because, you know, from employers to parents themselves, they're spending money on this now, and, you know, the tide is turning. So, for me, authenticity is number one. And, generally, like, you know, when I am faced with any decisions, whether that's a product-based decision, I'm like, right, like, what's more important to our community? What do they really want? So, it's all about going back there and seeing, like, what is going to give them most value? It's about understanding when we look at the development or getting team members on board, it's, you know, who believes in the mission? So, that generally is what guides me in my day-to-day decision-making process. WILL: Yeah, I really like that because I feel like, especially with social media, there's a lack of authenticity sometimes. Sometimes, I feel like society wants you to be this superhero as parents. And sometimes it's like, I think I have some of my best moments with my kids and some of my worst times with my kids. Just, like, I think sometimes just being honest about this is where you're at as a parent. You're doing okay. Maybe you need to tweak this, this, and this, but I think that's a good thing to go by. So, I really like that you said that. PRIYANKA: Well, there's lots of ways to make money. Entrepreneurship that might be one of the things you do to make money, right? But it's not the easiest way. You know, I gave up my corporate career for a good reason, and I want to remember that. It was to sort of achieve big things but being authentic. So, that's really, like, where we are at. WILL: I love it. Love it. I usually ask this question around careers, but I'm going to ask it for parenting. So, if you can go back in time and give yourself advice on your parenting, what advice would you give? PRIYANKA: I would just say chill out [laughs]. You know, I think I was so hard on myself, right? So, for example, like, you know, when my son was born, my firstborn, I was so hell-bent on breastfeeding and, like, every bottle I had to give him a bottle day three because, you know, like you, like, my son as well he lost a lot of his weight, and we got worried. And he wasn't feeding. I didn't have a supply. So, it was so hard, and I felt like I failed. Every time he didn't sleep through the night, it felt like I failed. So, I sort of took responsibility for all of it. Like, you know, this is, you know, that I'm failing this next project. But I wish I could just, you know, sort of go back and be like, this is all part of the journey. And this is a, you know, sort of a small person that you're trying to raise, and they have different rhythms, and it doesn't go by the book. So, those are some of the things I would tell myself is just to be kinder. And, you know, actually, that's another thing that we do at Ammi is, like, just that self-compassion in our program about, like, just being easy on yourself for those years. I had to sort of come back and, you know, as you said, bounce back. And, again, all of that there's just incredible amounts of pressure on parents. Yeah, I think I would just tell myself to be kinder and be patient through all of that and things will work out. WILL: I appreciate you saying that because I needed to hear that, to be honest with you. [laughter] Yeah. Just, I think, my kids are 4, 3, and almost 2, so, like, 22 months. So, "It's going to be okay, and chill out" is really good advice for me to hear at this time. So, I appreciate you saying that. PRIYANKA: Yeah. And it will be, you know, I mean, I know it's hard. Like, it's as they say, the days are, you know, long, and the years are short. But when you're in it and when you haven't slept in a week [laughs], it can feel like it's just dragging on forever [laughter]. And that's one of the hardest challenges, right? Sleep deprivation. So, sleep workshops are the most popular, as you would expect. You know, we get sleep experts to come in and talk about it. And, generally, you know, what's really interesting is, like, through a lot of these workshops, what they all end up really saying is that everything is normal [laughs]. So, it's not like one sort of thing is normal. And just having an expert say that to you and say that to our parents who join these calls is just incredibly relieving for them that they're not, you know, in some race and competition to see whose kid has slept through the night or, like, what's, you know, what I'm doing wrong, whose kid is eating the most variety of fruit and veg, you know, that's not what it's about. It's all normal. And they just go away and sleep well that night, right? Like, after a workshop because they're like, this is great. I'm doing it okay [laughter]. WILL: Well, once again, that's good to hear because, like, last night, I think I got five hours of sleep because of my son. PRIYANKA: Ooh. WILL: Thank you for saying even that because, like, you question yourself a lot. Like, I know I do. I question myself a lot. Am I doing the right thing? Is this what I'm supposed to be doing? So yeah, that's really good to hear. PRIYANKA: Yeah, it's a common ailment that [laughs], you know, sort of goes around the parents of our generation, I think. WILL: Yes, definitely. What are some of the biggest hurdles you see coming up? PRIYANKA: As a startup, there's hurdles every day. You know, there's things sort of that we're...challenges that we're facing, but really in, you know, in the current climate, I think it's about securing the right kind of funding and the amount of funding we think we need in order to get the product developed and go to market. That is a big hurdle. I have, you know, sort of some plan B set up in terms of how we could, you know, sort of test our solution in other ways and in scrappier ways. And we're kind of working on that alongside it. But it's a difficult environment for startups right now, as you might have been aware. And especially with healthcare and wellness, in particular, it's been pretty hard over the last couple of years. The problem hasn't gone away, you know, so mental health and, you know, sort of wellness was a thing two, three years ago. And then, you know, it's all shifted to climate and sort of climate tech, which is great because that is also a problem, but equally, we haven't fixed any of this yet. And there are, I think, opportunities to do things in this area that might be missed if the funding doesn't come along. So, funding is definitely one thing. Yeah, in terms of hurdles, if we do get the funding, it's about making sure that we get the right team together. As I said, I'm a solo founder, so that in itself is a hurdle every day as I try to sort of juggle the bootstrapping and the endless to-do list that I have with Ammi. So, I'd say, yeah, I think those are really the big things that I'm focusing on. WILL: Yeah, I love that. And yeah, I agree. Funding is probably, yeah, that's a big hurdle. And as a parent, it's much needed just to hear those things. So, I hope it all works out and it goes well. PRIYANKA: Yeah, no, thank you. And sort of showing that it's a need, but also, it's a commercial opportunity, right? Like, parents now in the UK, the spending that parents do in that first couple of years that their baby is born has skyrocketed. And more and more, you know, as we see, like, parents coming into sort of this journey now, are aware of the impact that poor sort of mental state can have on their children. It's not like how it was when I gave birth. Like, I think a lot of parents now are well aware, and they want to sort of be fit, not just physically, but also mentally for this journey. So, there's a lot of trends that are in our favor. So, you know, when it comes to things like spending on services rather than goods, you know, that's going up, the awareness around mental health. Unfortunately, the incidence of poor mental health is also going up. And so, people are coming into this, and there are multiple challenges, you know, that contribute to that as well. And the risk factors, unfortunately, is another thing. So, for example, a lot more parents are getting into parenting after having a difficult fertility journey or having experienced loss or, you know, neonatal ICU moments. So, all of that is really stressful to deal with. And then, you know, then have this child to sort of look after when you're barely healing yourself. So, I think people are recognizing the need for this, certainly, the parents are. It's about making sure that investors see that now as well as a commercial opportunity. WILL: Yeah, I really like that. Yeah, I totally agree with that. What motivated you to start your company? Like, was it just the experience that you went through when you were raising your kids, or was there a certain thing that motivated you? Because, like you said, entrepreneurship is not easy at all. So, what motivated you to want to start your company? PRIYANKA: You know, as I mentioned, I was, you know, sort of on that sort of corporate ladder for many years. And while I was, you know, even doing that, I think there was a certain restlessness inside of me. Am I living my most authentic life? Like, is this how I want to spend my days? You know, and I have a family now. Is this what I want to be doing when I'm not at home? And that was sort of bothering me. And then, you know, 2020 happened, right? And I'm a statistic of the great resignation, but, like, it really was triggered by some significant life events. So, very, very early, like, almost before any of the lockdowns and start of the pandemic, in February 2020, my husband got really sick with COVID and was on a ventilator for ten days. They didn't even know really what COVID was at the time. He was one of the first, like, maybe 20, 30 patients in London in hospital. And yeah, we almost lost him. So, that was big. And, you know, at the time, I was dealing with a high-pressure job and very young kids at home, you know, sort of at the end of my sort of mental space as well. And I took some time off and just decided then, like, I think I need to sort of pivot now. I need to, you know, life is too short. So, I resigned from my role a few months in and decided to focus on more meaningful ventures. And that's when I stumbled upon ZINC venture capital. So, ZINC venture capital is an incubator accelerator program here in the UK. And they invest in mission-based businesses, and their '21, '22 cohort was actually, as I said earlier, you know, on children and young people's mental health. And within that, you know, while I was researching it, I think it just brought up these memories of being, like, in that early phase of parenting. And I started meeting a lot of moms who were in that phase and just realizing that these are, you know, capable women who are at their most vulnerable physically and emotionally at this time, and they're being let down. You know, these families are being let down by the system, by the environment that we live in, and, essentially, feeling like they're failing. And I recognized that in my own experiences. I had a lot of anxiety, as I, you know, sort of mentioned with my firstborn. And I think that did impact. And, to date, we're sort of probably dealing with the impact of the way that we were as parents, you know, with him. And I just wish I had done things differently or I knew different. And that's really, like, what has motivated me. And I see, you know, these moms, like, looking for solutions and these dads as well, like, sort of more aware of these issues, but they don't have the support. So, that's really, like, where Ammi was born was, you know, during my time there. And it was also a process of, like, finding my own personal mission, you know. And I feel deeply motivated by this, by solving the problem really. I'm not so married to the solutions. It really, for me, is about the problem and making sure that we get the right solution in people's hands. WILL: Yeah, I really like that. I think 2020 was rough for everyone. I think it was really, really rough. It was rough for me. Like you said, it was rough for you. But I'm hoping that we're going to start seeing...because someone was telling me about trends that happen. Like, we usually go through a really rough time, but then that's usually when we get creative solutions afterwards. And so, I'm hoping that's what we're seeing, you know, with your company and many others, which is those creative solutions from 2020. All that that happened I'm hoping that we're starting to see more and more creative solutions. So, I'm so glad that you're starting this and that you stepped out and that you're doing this because I think it's going to benefit a lot of people. PRIYANKA: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. It's good to hear as well [laughs]. WILL: Yeah, definitely. So, clearly, there's a need for your solution. So, what are you hearing from the investor side, and what does that look like? PRIYANKA: It's interesting. With things that have to do with wellness or sort of parenting, and, you know, as we now call it, like, femtech, there seems to be this perception that it's a crowded space. I can see why people say that, you know, maybe there is this sort of influx of, you know, your Instagram feed full of, like, momfluencers or messages that are coming across on parenting and things. But if you really ask parents if they feel supported and they have access to what they need, they're still struggling. And they're still finding it difficult because every parent's journey is a little different, and they need that direct access. That's still quite hard to get. Like, you could do your research, but equally, that takes up time. So, I think what we're doing differently at Ammi and what we're really doing here is to make that access to experts as easy, convenient, and affordable as possible, and I think there's definitely a space and market for that. Making that access sort of affordable and easy but equally, like, having that support, having the coaching support and continuity of care, which doesn't exist anymore, and not a lot of people are doing that yet. There are a few startups that are sort of entering the space. In the U.S. I think, actually, there's been more proof of this concept working with the incredible work that Maven Clinic has done, for example. But in the UK, it's still pretty niche, and in Europe. So, I think there's a potential for a big player to come in and take up that space. And that's what I'd like investors to know is that: the commercial opportunity is not to be understated here in terms of what that is. There's, you know, 600,000 new parents in the UK every year. And if you think about it, if even 10% of those are spending what is the average on the baby's first few years of life, which is anywhere between 8,000 to 15,000 in that year, a percentage of that does go to services. That already is a huge annual market that one could be looking at entering, sorting, and de-fragmentizing or...well, that's not the word but organizing because it is a very, very fragmented space. And there is opportunity to make that a lot easier for parents. That's kind of the message I'd like to get out there. WILL: As a parent, I'm glad you said that because one thing I keep hearing you saying is experts, experts. I like that your platform has experts, and I can trust their info. Because I get some info from social media, but sometimes I'm like, can I trust this information? Is it real? Is it AI? Whatever it is. So, I like yours that it's like, we've added these solutions, and they're experts. So, that's, yeah, I can see how that's so beneficial. PRIYANKA: Right. And that is what most parents tell us is: trust is such a big factor. Parenting is, like, one of the biggest things that you'll do in your life, you know, and trust is essential because you don't just want to be trying things at random or, you know, sort of sometimes you do that, but it's not ideal. And most parents will pay for that, too, you know, they will pay to talk to an expert. They will pay for that. They might not pay for the free information that comes in their way. And this is why, like, content is one part of a strategy, but it's not core to it. It really is about creating those personalized journeys. And maybe this is another conversation as well for next time, but it really is about, like, scaling that. And that's really interesting in how we plan to do that as well. How do you scale personalized solutions? And I think that could be really interesting. WILL: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I could definitely see if you could figure that out, wow, it opens up so many avenues for you. So, that's amazing. So, with your solutions, how have you validated that this is what your users want and this is what they need so that they're successful? PRIYANKA: We've been doing a process of validation right from the beginning. You know, I've run ideation sessions—co-creation sessions. I've done maybe 20-plus interviews with mums and run surveys with over a hundred parents to really understand what it is they need. So, we developed, like, the version one of our prototype based on the top problems that parents told us they were having, the kind of ways in which they wanted to access help. So that's where, you know, sort of the creative ideas around text chat and workshops and ways to make it more accessible came about, even things like having all of that on your phone because most parents will be on their phone in those early years and not so much on desktop. So, that was another thing that informed all of that. So, we did two rounds of testing, and then we did another third round as well to ensure that we were, like, tweaking our prototype to really make it exciting for parents. And once we developed our mental health or sort of a mental health coaching platform, we also ran that on a two-week trial with a bunch of Ammi sort of community members. And the results were, like, really reassuring and almost overwhelming to some extent with, you know, some moms saying that, you know, doing some of those exercises help them sleep at night. And some others said, "Oh, wow, these sections really speak to me on values and goal setting." Some others said that "You know, it really helped me provide that moment of calm and stop my ruminating thoughts." And all of this is really encouraging to hear from people directly as they've used your content and your platform. So, that's sort of, like, the validation we've been through. And I think it's always going to be a process. You know, even when we come out with version 1, we're going to learn what people are interacting with most. And, you know, I'm really interested to see how they react and their behaviors around the text chat particularly. So yeah, it's one of the best parts about building something is that interaction with your users and community. Like I said, it's 500-plus moms who are part of this community now and who've been informing the solution at every step of the way. WILL: I love that you took that step to validate it. Priyanka, thank you for joining me today. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for the episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.

In this episode, host Victoria Guido interviews Chris Pallatroni, creator of The Standard, a platform dedicated to sharing self-care stories. Chris shares how his interests in gardening and mental wellness fueled the inception of The Standard, which was initially intended to be a landscaping venture. He delves into the hurdles faced while developing the platform, highlighting the struggle for product-market fit and the critical role of integrating technology with human connection to enable meaningful support and interactions. Chris underscores storytelling's pivotal role in enhancing mental health, advocating for the sharing of personal triumphs over adversity to motivate and assist others facing similar challenges. He envisions The Standard as a vast collection of genuine, relatable self-care narratives aimed at reducing the feeling of isolation among individuals. Through inviting users to share their experiences, Chris seeks to leverage human connections to cultivate a community supportive of mental health and personal development. The Standard (https://thestandardapp.com/) Follow The Standard on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/thestandardapp/), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@__thestandard__), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/__thestandard__/). Follow Chris Pallatroni on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-pallatroni-9bba3b22/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript:  VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Chris Pallatroni, Founder of The Standard, a storytelling platform where people share stories about self-care. Chris, thank you for joining me. CHRIS: Yeah. Thanks for having me on. It's a pleasure. VICTORIA: Wonderful. So, before we dive into all about The Standard, why don't you just tell me a little bit about what's going on in your world outside of work? Anything fun? Anything exciting? CHRIS: Yeah. Well, first of all, I've got two boys, so for anybody that's listening that has kids, I mean, let's be honest, your life is completely chaotic. So, I've got two boys, one's almost 12, one's almost 10, so all boy, all the time. That's just another way of saying our house is really loud, and there's just tons of stuff happening, sports, whatnot. I also have a wife, a beautiful wife. She's my better half. I've been with her for 24 years. So, between that, I got three cats, not that they take a lot of energy, but there's just a lot of love in our household. So, that's sort of, like, the family side of things. And then I'm an avid gardener. I'm really big into mental health and wellness, which, as we start to talk about The Standard, will become really evident. So, I'm all about just doing the things that you need to do to take care of yourself, so lots of running, lots of working out, lots of just being in nature. I know you're a surfer, so, I mean, let's be honest, water is amazing. So yeah, anything I can do to, like, duck out into nature and spend time with my family. Honestly, there's just not enough time in the day. VICTORIA: What is growing in your garden that you're the most proud of? CHRIS: You don't want to get me started on gardening. So, before I started The Standard, honestly, I thought I was going to be a landscaper, and the name of The Standard actually was going to be applied to a landscaping company. So, I am a professional landscaper. I took all the classes: soil, science, irrigation. I got the degree in design and maintenance. I have a tiny, little property, but I have about 700 plants on my property. So, I know everything on the roses, and grass, and camellias. I mean, I'm that guy that, like, likes to see...nature is just amazing, first of all. And it also has very therapeutic qualities when we start to talk about mental health and well-being, birdsong, water, greenery, sunsets, sunrises. I'm also developing a piece of land. We have a house we're building, and it's three acres. So, I'm in the process of building out, like, what I'm going to just describe as the most amazing garden anybody's ever seen. I really take a lot of pride in gardening. I'm very disciplined and very specific on how things grow. And so, I've got a property that's about an acre and a half I'm planting, which will probably have, like, 20,000 plants on it when it's all said and done. VICTORIA: So, you have 700 plants now, and you plan to have 20,000, so you don't want to choose favorites. There's nothing...you got to, like, spread the love around. CHRIS: God, it's like saying, which child do you love more? I mean, right now on my property the ones that currently stand out is I've got a couple of these Eden Rose bushes that I've trained to climb up. I've got three of them. The one in the front of my house is about 20 feet tall at this point. So, I've trained it to grow up the entire side of my house. In full bloom, it will have about 300 roses on it in full bloom. And so, an Eden Rose has about a 220 petal count. So, it's a very dense rose. They are a pain in the butt to prune, but they're pretty spectacular in full bloom. VICTORIA: That sounds really beautiful. And I hope you send me some pictures [laughs] after the show. Send them to me in an email because I want to see...I love growing, but I do not have a green thumb. I usually try to pick what is most likely to survive [laughs]. CHRIS: That's my wife's strategy. She's like, what can I not kill? And, surprisingly, even with, like, cactuses, she still finds a way to kill some of them, so...[laughs] VICTORIA: Some people have it, some people don't. I do agree on the therapeutic side. And I'm curious, too, having this background, how did you go from landscape and this interest in growing things to starting businesses? CHRIS: Yeah, you know, the landscaping actually picked up at a much later stage. So, if I rewind my entrepreneurial journey, it started in 2004. I got mixed up with some guys as I was finishing up my degree in economics and finance. I was like, look, I don't have, like, a 4.9 GPA, so I'll probably need some sort of internship that starts to separate me. Anyways, got mixed up with some guys that were running a franchise painting company, took part in that, really loved the idea of seeing something grow. Did really well on that internship. You really ran, like, a mini-painting division of this larger company, so knocking on doors, producing painting jobs, so forth, and so on. At the end of that, which was a really intense about a year internship, they said, "Hey, we're going to build this marketing company. Do you want in?" And I was like, "Let's do it." And so, what I really wanted...and that was, like, my first major let's start a business. And I loved the idea of taking something from an idea to...the idea was, could we sell it for a hundred million dollars? So, the money was attributed to it, but I wanted to see something grow. And so, we went at it for, like, 15 years. We did end up selling, not at a hundred. We sold it for, like, 70 million. But we did really well. It was a bootstrapped company. We built this massive national marketing company. It's sort of like match.com for contracting. You can take a consumer that's interested in remodeling their house and connect them to a local contractor. And we built that all from, like, a bedroom with plyboard and literally rotary phones all the way to a national brand that's...I think we became the second largest in the space. It's still the company I still work for. As I build this other business, I'm still working at that. We're pushing 250 million now. But the concept of building something and selling it I thought was really intriguing. Landscaping was just a hobby that came in much later in my life. Thought that was going to be my next venture. I decided to pivot after getting all of the education, mainly because I wanted to build something that had application for everybody. And what I started to realize in landscaping is the average consumer doesn't have $50,000 to dump on their backyard. And what I didn't want to do is work for rich people and wineries. I really wanted to build a magical, little space for the average person. But I also started to realize most people don't have that type of income, which then pivoted me to The Standard, which I thought had more universal application. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. So, I love that because there's, like, a common phrase you hear about tech where every company is also a tech company now. So, it's really interesting to hear and, like, to hear about you think about growth and how it applies to businesses and that care that you put into it as well. CHRIS: Yeah. I mean, I think everything is tech-related in a lot of different ways. I don't know, I think at least with The Standard, like, there's such a human element, and I still need to figure out so much about it. But as tech-driven as we get, we're still a social species. We still want human connection. And maybe at one point far off in the future, like, a robot can replace some of that, but the human connection, the human story, the ability to feel connected and not isolated or alone has very profound impacts on people's mental health and well-being. And so, as much as I still have to figure out, I try not to over-index on too much tech and try to keep things very authentic and organic. Because I think when you do that right and you can do the matching of a consumer that's interested in a specific story with someone that has gone through that experience who can share that story, that connection is very profound. So, I do think it is a blend of tech, but I try not to dive too deep into the tech side of things. VICTORIA: Right. It's more that you need technology as a tool to solve the problems of the people that you're trying to work for or trying to, like, provide services for. So, it sounds like, to recap a little bit, you were part of growing this company. You were able to build it and sell it for 70 million. And then, you decided to, like, keep doing it. You're like, that was fun. Let's do another one [laughs]. CHRIS: Well, I mean, in all honesty, I think some of the challenges become when you're starting a company, which is incredibly invigorating. But if you're starting a company in an area that you don't have expertise...so, although I know a lot about mental health and wellness, I've read hundreds of books. I interviewed lots of people. I hired you guys to do some market research for me. So, I'm not naive, but I've never built a platform that does what I'm trying to do. And in all my research, I haven't exactly even seen a platform that does exactly what I do. So, it's hard to have that perfect measuring stick. And so, you know, what I've realized along the journey is it's really easy to spend money, and it's really hard to find product-market fit. And so, what I've chosen to do, and maybe it takes a little bit longer to get there, is rather than, like, go all in, quit my day job, and really just financially stress the crap out of myself and my wife, I still have a day job. I get paid exceptionally well. I'm very senior in my company. It's not overly stressful, but it also pays the bills. And so, I think one of the things I've learned about being an entrepreneur is you've got to enjoy the journey. And so, I do enjoy what I still do, and it serves a very valuable purpose. And it gives me still the freedom to play around with The Standard, to still do the things that I want to do. Sure, I can't burn as many hours on it, but at the same time, if I quit this job, my runway would highly compress, and maybe that's good for some people, but there's still just so much I have to figure out. So, I need the runway. VICTORIA: I can relate to that, and I think that's a really common story for people who have a great idea, and they need the time and space to find the right product-market fit to move forward and then make the big investment with your time and all the, like, other financial investments you would need. So, maybe to go back to the beginning a little bit, what led you to think of starting The Standard in the first place? CHRIS: So, I'll try to say this as succinctly as possible. Life is really hard for a lot of people, you know, and you can dice it up in a lot of different ways, whether we're talking about, like, you know, global events that happen, be it war, be it COVID, you know, anything on a very large level. But even on an individual level, like, we lose people. People are dealing with weight issues, how to eat healthy, stress. There's a lot. When we start to think about the concept of mental health and well-being, it is overwhelming. And I'm built for discipline. I've always been that way. I'm incredibly disciplined as a person. Some things may feel like they come a little easier to me, but I also look at like, oh my God, I got to worry about like, how do I sleep right? And how do I eat right? And then, how do I exercise? And then you got to be grateful for stuff, and then have social friends, and then be with your family. Like, I mean, adulting is tough; let's just be honest. And so, a lot of the concept behind The Standard was I have the freedom to explore a lot of this stuff. I've had the luxury to read hundreds of books and, meet so many people, and really invest a lot as to educating myself about these various topics that I think are important. I also have the luxury to deploy a lot of these strategies in my personal life, and it's a privilege to be able to do that. And a lot of people don't have that. They're struggling. They're working multiple jobs. They don't have a lot of time in the day. Maybe they're commuting. They don't have the luxury to take care of themselves. And that's just the Western world. Do you want to, like, dive into the Global South or start to look at, like, Ukraine or stuff like that? Like, there's just people, like, literally just trying to make it through the day, let alone be grateful about something or eat healthy. And so, I started to realize, like, God, if I think this is even remotely challenging, what does somebody else feel about their mental health and well-being? And so, that was sort of the jump off of, like, it is tough to maintain your sanity. It is tough to do all of those things. Is there a way that I can make that process easier for people? And so, that just led to a rabbit hole that started about six months before COVID hit, so late 2019. I spent a lot of time researching. I read several hundred books on habit formation and neuroscience and all these different topics. And, I mean, to the point where I was reading every morning, typing notes of these books, mind mapping this out, looking for the connection of all these topics. And what I was trying to figure out is what is the least amount of information somebody needs to know to have the most profound effect on their life? And what I came to as a conclusion was most people will not read a book or listen to a podcast. Some will, but the average person won't. They don't have the time, the desire. But everybody's got a problem they're trying to solve, whatever that problem may be, and if you could take somebody that has a problem and you could find a way to connect them to somebody who had that problem but is a little farther down the road. So, let's pick something pretty simple, like weight loss. I've interviewed a lot of people on my podcast this year that have lost 100 pounds, which is a really big number. And even if it's not a hundred pounds, you want to lose 20 pounds. The point being is that weight is a big issue for a lot of people. It affects their self-esteem, their body image. There's a number of things that, like, impact that. But if you could connect somebody who's really struggling to lose weight with somebody who has lost that weight and could share their story, how they felt, the habits they've deployed, and most importantly, they could talk about that experience, what would happen is the person that's been through that issue, if you will, would use a set of language that would be very specific and would resonate with the person that hasn't overcome the challenge yet. And this is what's so unique about it is: I don't know what that particular challenge is like. I've never had that particular issue. I won't know the language to use. But if you've ever talked to somebody who has lost a significant amount of weight, they will use words, and they will give examples that only somebody who's struggling with it would resonate with. I remember doing an interview, and a lady was like, "God, you know," she's like, "I was so overweight. I would be very thoughtful of getting on the ground because I wasn't sure if I could get back up. Or I'd be very thoughtful of the chair I sat on in case it broke." I mean, these are the things I'm like, unless you're overweight, you don't think about that. And so, my idea was like, could I take somebody who's overcome some of these problems, get them to share some of those self-care stories that they used to solve whatever that problem was, and then create a mechanism in which somebody who was struggling with, in this case, weight loss, that they could type in, "How do you deal with weight loss?" and they could connect to other people that have developed the habits and the mindsets that helped them through that? And weight loss is just an example, but you could pick anything from racism to depression to domestic violence and so forth and so on. The caveat there is you need a mechanism to connect the person that's overcome the challenge with the person that's still going through it. So, you got to get a lot of people on the other side of the tunnel to share their story and to know that they're doing it maybe not to monetize it but to do it for the benefit of other people who were like them at one point. VICTORIA: Yeah, if I can try to summarize what you meant when you said, like, what's the least amount of information to have the most profound realization on how to impact your life? It sounds like what you discovered was that it's human connection to other humans who have had the same experience and survived it and overcome those challenges. CHRIS: Yeah, without a doubt, because I think when you're struggling with an issue, you tend to think you're alone. You tend to think the way you're thinking about your addiction to something, or your weight loss, or your body image; you tend to think, oh, this is just me. And what motivates somebody who's in that mindset is to hear somebody else who can use a certain set of language that helps them realize, wow, I'm not alone. There is other people that have gone through this particular issue. And what that does is it starts to open up the door, open up their mind in a way of, wow, change can happen. Now, you can't copy other people's habits. It doesn't exactly work that way. But what it can do is at least give you a starting place to say, "Here's somebody who I feel is like me in some ways, and they've made it to the other side. Here's some of the habits, and the mindsets, routines that they specifically have that have helped them get through this. Maybe I can try some of those on, at least as a starting place, and then I can modify them as time..." So, it really starts with the mindset and the clarity of I'm not alone and maybe there is some hope. And I think that's a really big thing when you're talking about some of these very large issues that people run into on a day-to-day basis. MID-ROLL AD: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops. VICTORIA: So, what lessons did you learn from your previous experience in starting a business are you taking into what you're doing now with The Standard? CHRIS: Oh my God, so many lessons. Well, I mean, here's the brutal reality is: I've chosen to go in an industry that doesn't exactly have carryover effects. I was in marketing, dealing with homeowners and contractors, and now I'm diving into mental health. So, I, unfortunately, don't get to, like, flex my black book and, you know, voilà myself into, like, success here. I've also chosen to go from marketing and generating leads to now I'm trying to build a platform, which apparently is one of the hardest things you could possibly do. But here's one that I really do take away, and it's probably not in the way that you actually intended that I would answer, but here's the biggest lesson I've taken away. When I built the first company, Jason Polka was our CEO, and Gabe Luna...it was three of us that really started it. So much of that entire journey...especially after the first five years of building the infrastructure, and you started to move out of the basement, and you had a corporate office, and, you know, you felt a little bit more legit. You started generating 10, 20 million dollars a year in revenue. I'd say from year, like, five through the time we sold it, I just wanted to sell the company. So much of the conversation became around, when is this going to happen? And it was always a grind. I mean, building a company is just tough. I mean, maybe some people, it works out, and everything's great, but it's really tough. A lot of businesses don't succeed, and we were very lucky that we did. But so much of it was me just trying to check off that final box of, like, I just want them to say, "We did it." It wasn't even really the payout. It was, just, I want to know that we were capable of doing it. And what happened is there was so much of that ten years where I wasn't enjoying the journey. I mean, don't get me wrong, like, I love the people I worked with, some great friendships. But it was so much of like, how do we fast forward this a little bit? And so, once the day happened that it was sold, and especially as I started to embark on this other side, I said, look, I'm now in my, like, early 40s. Like, that can't happen again. I mean, maybe I never sell the next company. Maybe I'm working on this for a decade or two decades. I need to enjoy the journey. Like, my kids are young once. Like, I've got this wife. I've got this life. Like, selling a company is great, but it is not the defining thing of your life. Like, you still need to live your life. And so, the big lesson I took away from it is how do I enjoy the journey as I go through this process? And I'll be honest, that is a big mind f, if you will, like, it's not an easy thing to do because as entrepreneurs, you're very much like, well, what metrics, and what's the next milestone? And dah, dah, dah, dah. And, like, dude, it's brutal. So, I'm really trying to, like, enjoy the process, even if the process is a struggle. VICTORIA: What are your top strategies for enjoying the process or making it fun? CHRIS: Well, one, take care of your mental health and your well-being [laughs], whatever that is for you. I do a lot of weekly planning. And so, when I do my weekly planning, it literally will come down to I look at my schedule, and I make sure I get my runs in there. I get my gardening in there. I get my time at my kids' events, my time with my wife. I get my workouts. I make sure I eat healthy. I do everything that I can to take as good of care of Chris as I possibly can. You know, a cliché is to say, but you can't pour from an empty cup. So, if you want to give your best to your company, your family, your friends, your community, whatever, like, you really do need to prioritize yourself. Self-care is not selfish. So, that's the number one thing I do. I'd say the other thing, too, is how do you deal with anxiety? How do you deal with this constant...and anxiety is one of the most pronounced mental health issues on our planet. 350 million people deal with this annually. It's easy to start to think about the future and to fill in the gap with the worst-case scenario, to get anxiety of, like, oh my God, I didn't do this, or I shouldn't be doing that. And so, learning to just take a deep breath, do the best job you can. Let your intuition carry you, and not be so judgmental when it doesn't turn out the way you want it. Like, I wish I had much more success at this stage of the business than I do. But I'm still making forward progress, and I'm enjoying the process, and I'm learning stuff. And could I be faster? Yeah, probably. So, I try not to over-index on what I'm not doing, and I try to just take the best next step possible and just trust it will all work out but be okay if it didn't. That's easier said than done sometimes, especially if you've never had success. I think part of it is the fact that I've been successful in selling a company. I mean, in a lot of ways, like, hey, I know I could. Maybe I can do it again. Maybe I can't. And I'm okay either way that that pans out. VICTORIA: I think that part about being okay if it doesn't is so important. And tying that together to what you mentioned earlier about being financially stable enough to invest in what you want to invest in, like, it's a really big, important thing for founders. And I think if you're constantly worried about how am I going to pay myself? How am I going to pay my bills? You're not really going to be focused on building the best product, or actually solving the problem, or being willing to pivot in a way you need to to create something that is going to last and be really impactful for people. I think that's really interesting. In climbing, there's some...it teaches me that because I have some projects that probably I might never complete them [laughs]. They're really hard. The people who actually create videos of themselves climbing it are, like, six feet tall, and I'm never going to be six feet tall, but I just try to enjoy the hike up to the climb. I enjoy going up to this little boulder and just, like, touching it and feeling it. So, I'm curious if you could say more about how are you thinking The Standard will solve that problem and, like, create that connection for you and, like, solve your anxieties as, like, a founder about, is this company working well enough? Do you connect people in that same way as well? CHRIS: There's a famous quote that says, "It takes seven years to become an overnight success." I mean, maybe in some ways, it even takes longer, depending on what you're trying to build here. And, I don't know, success is somewhat arbitrary. You know, like, I remember when I got the call that we sold our first company, which was the moment I was waiting for, I remember getting the call. I was driving home. "Hey, we did this. Here's your payout." I did not feel any more successful in that moment. Like, it wasn't like that checked off the box. I'm like, well, there I go. I'm super successful now. It was like, now what? You know, my kids didn't, like, hug me and be like, "Oh, successful dad sold companies," you know, it wasn't. It was like, you know, life continued. And it was just such a powerful reminder of so much of the significance that we put on things is like, it's us. Like, I don't want to say nobody else cares because, you know, a lot of entrepreneurs are trying to build products that, you know, change the world, make a meaningful difference to people's lives. And we do put a disproportionate burden on ourselves of, like, God, if I don't do this, maybe it just doesn't get done. I think, for me, when I'm building The Standard, I try to, one, I always try to think of like, enjoy the journey. Am I doing things that I enjoy doing? So, we started a podcast last year. I mean, The Standard, like, so just a quick on timeframe, I mean, I spent a year building it. So, I did all this research for about two years, including hiring you guys. I got to the place where I'm like, okay, I think I got a concept, not product-market fit. I just got a concept, and I want to start to build that out into reality. Hired a designer, really great designer. Found him, you know, cold-called him, got him involved. Took us six months to build literally, like, a wireframe of like, it could look like this. And then I was like, okay, great. Now I'm going to go sell that to a VC and, like, convince him to give me millions of dollars. And I was like, and then I quickly realized, like, you absolutely have nothing at the moment, Chris. Like, there's nothing here. There's, like, you think you got something, like, you've got nothing. Like, there's no users. I mean, you got literally nothing here. And I was like, okay, great, so nobody's going to give me any money for this. Where do I go from here? And then I was like, well, I need to build something to see how people interact with it. So, then I decided to go through a no-code platform when I spent ten months teaching myself how to build something using no-code. So, I used bubble.io, which was a really great product. Now, that was a big mind cluster right there because I'm not a coder. I'm sort of the visionary of a product. That's, like, I'm not the technical expertise. But I didn't have a CTO. So, I was like, I need to solve for this problem. So, I taught myself how to use this. That was incredibly painful but incredibly rewarding because I know how to build something. So, then I built this, and then we beta test the launch, but now I'm like, okay, [inaudible 24:46] I built this, but I don't even know if it's a product-market fit. I don't even know if I built the right thing yet. Now, I got to see people who will interact with it. And then I was like, well, then how do you even get this thing to be exposed to the world? Like, it is just every step along the way; there's some mountain that seems insurmountable. You find a way to get to the peak, and then you realize there's a larger mountain that's [laughs] right behind it. And so, then it led down to, like, how do I get people to be aware of what I built? Played around with that for six months. And then, I was like, I got to start a podcast, like, now I'll interview people. And so, it's just a constant iteration of, like, toying around with some stuff. And look, there's plenty of things I do that I'm like, that clearly fails. And I think the question I ask myself a lot with the things that don't work is, did you give them enough time to be successful? Did you go about them in the right way and then decide to pivot? And, like, you won't always know all the answers to that. So, I think the point in giving sort of that timeline right there is it's a constant evolution, and you just do the best job you can and be okay with how the sort of the cards fall. VICTORIA: Yeah. And if you fail or it doesn't work how you expect it, it's like, well, did I learn something? And did I have fun doing it? [laughs] CHRIS: And if you take care of yourself along the way and you haven't sacrificed your own mental health and your well-being, your relationships with your kids, your partner, whoever it is, then at least you, like, if you fail, you're not like, and now I'm 30 pounds overweight. I'm miserable. My mental health is suffering. Like, you've got to balance that out. And so, I think that's going back to enjoying the journey as like, don't lose sight of the things that are really important. Building a company, yes, important, and for some people, it is really important. But at the end of the day, your health, your sanity are the most important things that you have. And so, I see all too often that a lot of entrepreneurs and just people in general are willing to literally kick that to the curb to chase some prestige, some recognition, some financial gain. And look, man, like, you know, there's plenty of rich people out there that are completely miserable, that are unhappy. I always think of Steve Jobs a lot. He had really lot of good...he did a commencement speech at Stanford when he was diagnosed with cancer. And, I mean, this is one of the most successful business people on our planet. Apple is the most successful company today at three trillion dollars or so market cap. And here's the visionary of the company. And when he was diagnosed with cancer, all he wanted was more time. It wasn't like, oh, I need more time to build another product. It's like the dude just wanted to be around longer. It didn't matter how many billions of dollars he had or products. Those were things that sort of fell to the wayside. It was all about his health. So, point being is like, just over-indexing on success and not really looking at what is success; success is your mental health, your well-being. That is real success. VICTORIA: Yeah. Wow. I can relate to that, too. I had, like, at a very young age, decided, oh, I'm going to be, like, an IT project manager. And then I got my PMP certification and I was like, oh, well, what do I do now? [laughs] What's the next thing? And it's just like, keep going and going and going. So, enjoy the moment, you know, love the journey, and prioritize that above those things. And that includes, like, learning, learning all these different parts of, like, how to build a business and how to build product. It reminds me of a journey that we hear where you could have a great idea and you're like, oh, I need to design it, and then I need to build it. And then, like, a year later, you're like, wow, I haven't talked to any users yet [laughs]. It's like, I don't actually know anything about what people want. And that's a really difficult thing to do. And it's a very emotional journey as well to go out and talk to people and try to ask questions in a way that doesn't give you false positives or false negatives and being able to leave your ego to the side and actually connect with people and hear about their problems. So, how has that been for you? Has there been anything in your discovery process that has surprised you and caused you to pivot in direction? CHRIS: And although you didn't ask the question in this way, a recommendation I would have for a lot of people and, you know, if you read The Lean Startup, it's a good book. It's one worth reading. I read a lot of product books and stuff. I would say, like, imagine you have no money. How will you test your concept? Like, so, like, I came into building this with some capital behind me, my own capital. And it's just easy to spend money, and not that I was naive to think spending money you do need to invest in some things, but I wish I had a lot less money than I did coming into it because I would have spent a lot less money. And I think you don't need a tremendous amount of money to start to get that user feedback that you're suggesting. I think there's some very organic ways that you could do it. And you really got to imagine, like, you have nothing. Like, how will you test this with $100? I was listening to a podcast episode the other day on the founder of Boston Dynamics. He was being interviewed, and it was a really cool one. Boston Dynamics is one of the leading robotic companies out there. And this guy had, you know, started the company 30 years ago, and he was walking through some of his early days. And he's like, he was talking about building the pogo stick robot and how he only had, like, I think it was, like, it was either a hundred or a thousand dollars to, like, build this robot, or maybe it was 3,000. It was a really, really low amount. And he basically was trying to build a robot that, like, jumped up and down on, like, a benign budget himself. It was a complete failure, but he learned some things through it. But he had enough success in that that when he then pitched that concept to the next person, I think it was, like, some congressional person, they gave him, like, a $250,000 budget, which was, like, back in 1980. But the point being is like, he had so little to start with, but he was still able to get some success. Versus if he had had 250,000, I don't know that he would have figured it out at that moment. He would have spent a lot more money. And so, I think for entrepreneurs that are starting something out, you're so right: the product-market fit is huge. It's hard not to get false positives. It's hard not to just hear what you want to hear. And so, what I've learned is that, like, there's a difference between what people say and what people do. And what you need to be doing is paying attention to what people actually do, not what people say. I interviewed lots of coaches across the planet. I'd share this idea. And, I mean, I had a phenomenal, like, 90% of them were like, "Chris, this is amazing." They would share some of their personal videos with me. And I'm like, wow, God, like, everybody thinks this is a great idea. And then, I started to realize like, it's probably because I'm decently looking. I can talk to people well. Like, there's a little bit of a me factor. I was like, well, what happens when I take me out of the equation? Will still 90% of people still think it's a good idea? And the answer was like, no. It completely changes. If I'm not there to navigate or provide the narrative, which, as entrepreneurs and founders, we're typically the storyteller, but if you remove me and I just show you it, you'll be like, "Ah, it's cool." But, I don't have enough of the expertise in product design and the sticky factor. I haven't found the right combination for somebody just to interact with and be like, "This is pretty sweet. I want to use it." So, going back to your original question, is like, you need to do more of that, and you need to learn how to do that stuff. I am still like you at surfing. I'm a novice at this. Like, I'm out there trying, but I am crashing all the time. And I am constantly trying to get back up and figure out how can I do this better and not provide an illusion that I'm getting it right, really paying attention to what do users actually like and not like? I am far from figuring that out. I'm still dedicated to doing it, but by no means have I hit a home run here. VICTORIA: What keeps you motivated? What keeps you going and trying to solve that question? CHRIS: You know, it goes back to an original statement I made with you is like, life is so hard for so many people. I jokingly will tell people, I said this a lot when I was interviewing coaches, is like, look, I'm very aware of my privilege. I'm a white, male who lives in Northern California in the U.S. I was born in the '80s. Like, I did not grow up with, like, this insurmountable, you know, adversity that I had to overcome. Like, there's a lot that was easier for me to obtain in my life. And look, I work really hard. I am incredibly focused. I put in a lot of work. I'm very focused in that way. But I also just recognize, like, it might have been different if I was born somewhere else, if I looked a different way, if I didn't have access to the resources that I did. And so, my point with that statement is that I am a massive believer that whatever excess currencies you have, time, capital, energy, whatever it is, it is our obligation to help as many people on this planet in whatever way we think we can help them. There are 800 million people on our planet that don't have clean drinking water, which is mind-boggling to me, considering the age we live in. I mean, we take it for granted you turn on the faucet and water comes out. That is a luxury that we have in living in the United States and in the Western Hemisphere. I mean, when you think about 800 million, that's almost 1 out of 8 people that don't have clean drinking water. And that's just drinking water, let alone access to vaccines or whatever you may choose. And so, the point that I'm making is that for those of us that have excess of anything, and maybe it's just time, or maybe it is you have a lot of money, we should be doing the best job we can to help other people in the ways that we think would help them. For me, I'm focused on mental health and well-being. For somebody else, that might be providing good food, or medicine, or whatever it may be, and that's okay. We just need more people contributing to, hopefully, you know, lift as many people up to the point that we all have good lives. That's what keeps me going is the fact that, like, I don't take for granted for one second how easy my life is. VICTORIA: I love that. And I like that you're trying to build technology that helps people and isn't just trying to, like, make the most money you can, or try to, like [laughs], flip it around or just share something that, you know, is really personal to you and, like, really is meaningful to you. So, I really appreciate you sharing that with me. What does success look like six months from now or even five years from now? CHRIS: Look, success for me is pretty much what I've stated this whole episode is, like, I'm taking good care of myself. I'm very present in my life with my wife, my kids, my friends doing things that make Chris happy. That's what success looks like. Now, clearly, we're here talking about The Standard and growing, and so I'd love to see more progress being made. I'd love to see more users on the platform. I'd like to be learning and figuring out, how do I help people share their story in a way that empowers them to share that story? How do I get people to want to share their story that don't feel like they have to be paid to do so? You know, what I find so interesting when I talk to so many people and, you know, I ran 45 episodes of our podcast this year. So, I talked to a lot of people that have gone through some adversity, and they'll all say the same thing, "Dude, I will help anybody that is going through what I've..." Like, nobody wants to see somebody struggle, especially when you know how hard adversity is, whatever that may be for you. You don't want to see other people struggle because you know how painful that is. I want to see people who are willing to quote, unquote, "give back" and say, "Look, if I can share a few things about how I've navigated my adversity, whatever that adversity is, because it will benefit other people going through this, I don't need to be paid for that. I just want to share it because it's sort of the right thing to do. It's sort of a pay it forward." I think in today's age, like, in the creator economy, like, everybody's like, "Well, I'm not going to help out unless I get paid." And, like, look, that might be a very privileged statement that I'm making, that I have the luxury. But when I build The Standard, right or wrong, and some people would argue, "This is, like, the dumbest business model ever, Chris," is like, I don't think about monetization. Like, I'm not like, how do I get paid on this? Is it ads? Do I charge people? Like, I'm just trying to build something that I think actually will help people, and I'm trying to do it for the right reason. So, it's people before profit. But, at one point, there has to be money involved to some extent. But I don't put the money part first. I put the people. How do I get that right? So, my hope would be, in 5, 3 years, whatever the time would be, is that more people buy into the message and they're like, look, if all it takes is me to spend 20, 30 minutes to create a couple of videos on my habits and share a little bit of my story, and there's a way to memorialize some of the things that I've learned for the benefit of other people going through it, that's great. That's a drop in the bucket of my time. That if enough people started to do that, it would send a signal to a wider swatch of our community, or people, or species that it's okay to share some of the things that make you who you are. And if you did that, it lets somebody else do that. And if you get enough people doing that, you build a phenomenal habit bank, if you will, of just stories that other people can leverage for their own benefit. That would be success from my perspective. I try not to attach a certain amount of users. It's really just like, can I start to convince more and more people that you probably already have some information that would be really valuable to other people? I'm just trying to organize it in a way that someone can find it, but I need people to share their story because the platform is not about me. Although I'm on it, it's not about Chris Pallatroni. It's about you. I mean, I'm sure you've gone through things in your life that you've learned, and you've navigated that. If you could share that in a way that was authentic and easily organized, other people would hear your story and be like, God damn, that's me too. I'm just trying to get more people to do that. That would be success in my mind. VICTORIA: Well, it reminds me of a program I'm involved with. You might have heard of Big Sister, Little Sister, or Big Brother, Little Brother. It's a mentorship program. So, you have a one-on-one relationship with someone who's...like, the little sister I have really reminds me of myself when I was that age, like, you know, early high school awkwardness, trying to figure out how to navigate friendships and family life and getting a lot of pressure on, like, what are you going to do with your career? Even though you're still, like, really young. So, it's interesting to think about how could you scale that and, like, have more content, like, take some of the little bits of conversations we have and, like, share that with other people who are going through the same thing. CHRIS: Yeah, it's exactly that. And there's lots of stuff out there. I mean, you think of, like, you know, Alcoholics Anonymous like, in a lot of ways, that is it. Or people that have gone through school shootings, like, they find a lot of comfort in talking to other people that have navigated that. Like, there is no topic that does not touch mental health and well-being. Like, there's none. Like, I mean, I've read them all. And so, it's just about taking people...and this is the beauty of it, like, sure, there are experts out there, Mel Robbins, Tony Robbins, you know, they've read. Their whole life is about self-development and empowerment. But if you take an average person somewhere in the world and maybe they have read notebooks on self-development or any of that, and you just start to dissect their experience as a human, what I know to be true is that they'll say, "I went through this," whatever this may be. And if you start to unravel the, how'd you cope with it? What did you learn? What habits did you develop? What mindsets did you develop? There is profound wisdom. It may not be textbook. They may not understand the science behind it, but what they will share is something that is very real and that it's said in a very authentic way. And the words they use are incredibly powerful that if you could just capture that in a very authentic way and store it, and most importantly, find a way to organize it so it's easy for somebody to find, that's what this is about. And so, there's lots of this that exist out there. There's just no central mechanism that tries to tie this all together. And so, that's sort of what I'm attempting to do. VICTORIA: That's really cool. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story and talking about what you've been building. Is there anything else that you would like to promote? CHRIS: No, not at all. I mean, I would just say, like, if anybody's interested, like, the platform that we have is thestandardapp.com. It's not an app; that's just the URL for it. Or you can find us on pretty much any social channel. It's just The Standard. We do run a podcast, which is The Standard Podcast, where we interview a lot of the coaches. But any one of those things will give you a really good idea of what we're trying to do. And if you feel like you've got something of value, we'd always love for more people to come on and just share their story in a way that's authentic to them. And that's really what we're about. VICTORIA: Awesome. Thank you so much. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for the episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. And you can find me on X @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at [email protected] with any questions.

Hosts Victoria Guido and Will Larry are joined by Trent Walton, CEO of Luro. Trent shares his journey into the design world, from his early fascination with typography and logos to co-founding Paravel. This agency later evolved into creating Luro, a no-code solution for building design systems and tracking their adoption across products. Trent emphasizes the importance of understanding the materials one works with in design and development and stresses the need for a holistic approach to product building. This approach blurs the lines between disciplines, encouraging a generalist mindset over specialization. Luro, as a product, stemmed from the realization that existing design systems often fell short in adoption and application, leading to a search for a more integrated and comprehensive solution. Trent outlines the functionality and vision behind Luro, explaining how it serves not just designers and developers but entire organizations by fostering better collaboration, documentation, and understanding of design decisions. Luro aims to streamline the creation and maintenance of design systems, making them more accessible and manageable, even for teams facing resource constraints. By incorporating performance, accessibility metrics, and the ability to track component adoption and integration, Luro provides a platform for continuous improvement and alignment with organizational goals. Luro (https://luroapp.com/) Follow Luro on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/luroapp/), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsS9BEmX1NPBXkbaLGcMZlw), Discord (https://discord.com/invite/aNEdjnR6A5), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/luroapp/). Follow Trent Walton on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/trent-walton/). Visit his website at trentwalton.com (https://trentwalton.com/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript:  VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. WILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with me today is Trent Walton, CEO of Luro. Luro is a no-code solution to build your design system and track adoption across your entire product. Trent, thank you for joining me. TRENT: Oh, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. WILL: Yeah, I can't wait to dive into Luro and get to know more about the product. But before we go into that, tell us a little bit about yourself. I know you're based out of Texas. TRENT: Yeah, I grew up, lived here my whole life. I'm in Austin with the other co-founders, Dave and Reagan. Been a designer probably all my life, always been interested in, like, typography and fonts. When I was little, I used to buy badges for cars from swap meets and take them home, not because I needed, like, I had a car I was building and had any interest in, like, sandblasting or building an engine. I just liked the typography, and the design of the icons, and the logos, and all that kind of thing. And so, now it's evolved into me just being, like, a type aficionado and a graphic design aficionado, and then that evolved into, especially when I discovered the web in the early 2000s, building and designing websites with Dave and Reagan, who I mentioned. And so, we had an agency called Paravel early on and had a lot of time putting into practice kind of that design and development and building for the web. VICTORIA: So, your first interest in design came from, is it a car engine? Is that what I heard? TRENT: Well, yeah, my father is a mechanical engineer, and so is my brother. And they work on cars, have classic, like, old Mustangs and Cobras and things that they build in their spare time. And I have no interest in that kind of work [laughs] but grew up in that environment. And, you know, pre-internet growing up in the '80s, one of the things that really got me was the aesthetic and the design around those kinds of muscle cars, so, like, old Shelby or Cobra or Mustang Ford ads, just, I really got into that. So, I'd buy, like, car manuals for a few bucks, or if there's a Mustang Cobra and there's a cool, like, chrome snake logo with a condensed uppercase typeface or some sort of lettering that says, you know, "Shelby Cobra." And that's when I realized [laughs] where my interests lie. You know, engines are cool. They sound cool. Fast cars are cool. But I was just totally, you know, enamored with the typography and the design aspect that surrounded those things, and then it just kind of evolved from there. Anything else I could get my hooks into, I picked up on. VICTORIA: I love that because when I talk to people about design, for folks who don't have a background in it, they kind of think, oh, design, that's logos. You know, I'm redesigning my house right now. My husband is like, "Oh, it's picking the tiles and the colors. We can do that." And I'm like, "No, like, design, there's a lot more to it. Design is everywhere." Like, you can find design inspiration from car manuals [laughs], it's so funny that you bought those, or from random logo design and actually, like, really good design. If it's something that's designed well, you probably don't even notice it. You just flow and use the space or use the app as you're intended to. TRENT: Yeah. And I also think that getting inspiration or starting ideas out from anywhere but the medium you're working in might be a nice little trick to bring some, like, naïve, fresh perspective to things. So, I try to go back to that stuff as much as possible. I have heaps of manuals I've bought off of eBay in recent years, yeah, things you wouldn't think you'd find on, like, you know, whatever, a graphic designer's bookcase, just anything to sort of break the monotony or break my own little lenses of what a website should look like, or what a logo or a brand should look like, how to step outside of that a little bit. But it's funny because it really does go back to that initial sense of wonder I experienced at those really just, you know, we're talking, like, in a gross, swampy field in Texas with, like, funnel cakes being served at every corner, like, not the most slick, rad graphic designy vibe, but that's where it all started for me. So, I go back there as often as I can [laughs]. VICTORIA: So, how do you talk to founders or people who are thinking about building products? How do you talk to them about design and give them a where to get started approach? TRENT: I don't know that I ever specifically talk about design or even maybe, like, engineering or about performance. I talk about all those things, accessibility, et cetera. I try to blur those lines as much as possible. It's maybe an idyllic thing that I've had for years. But going back to the agency days, I'll call them the agency days, but up until, like, you know, 2015, '16, Dave, Reagan, and I ran an agency called Paravel. And by nature, the three of us are some sort of a hybrid between a designer, maybe, like, a front-end developer. You know, Dave's more of an engineer now. But we've all been very careful to make sure that we're generalists, which I don't know that that, like, career-wise that, might pay off long term, but I cannot work on the web any other way or talk about the web any other way. I've always felt like, I mean, there was the old, which we don't have to get into, gosh, but the debate on should designers code? But I think the essence of that is really, like, should we be familiar with the materials we're working on? So, anytime I start to talk about designing for the web or designing a product, you want to make sure everyone has a clear understanding of the environment that they're working with. So, is it, you know, a website? And is performance important? And is our site that we're redesigning is it performant now? Is it fast or slow? Or am I a designer who only cares, and this is a thing that I have to fight inside of myself all the time? So, I'm not trash-talking anybody, but, like, do I want to load a bunch of fonts and cool images, and is that my KPI is how interesting and engaging the visuals are? Which is a great one to have, but it also, you know, while you're talking about design, you have to consider all of these other things that can define quality for an experience. Maybe those other things don't matter as much from one person to the next. But the more they are in front of me, the more they evolve the way I perceive what I work on. And so, I try to never really isolate any kind of aspect into maybe, like, a stage or a sprint that we're doing as a team. It's just sort of this holistic kind of hippie vibey way to look at sites, but I want to make sure that it's always, like, we're always starting from a very, very broad place that involves every aspect, and all team members and stuff like that. VICTORIA: Well, I love that because I try to think about that in the same way from the other end, like, on the operations perspective when you're talking about site performance. And, you know, like, is the site responding fast enough? And it comes back to the question of, like, well, what is the experience, expectations of the user? And what's important to get done on the site? [laughs] And having those conversations, like, early on and integrating all these different teams from the design and development and operation side to have that conversation so everyone knows what is the goal of the site and what is the important aspects of the user experience that the system needs to be able to support? So, I also like that you said that it's like, well, should you be familiar with the materials that you're using? [laughs] Thought that that was really cool. Like, I'm actually...my husband and I are renovating our home. And I'm talking about why we should invest in design [laughs], and part of it's because there's things to know about the materials. Like, if you're choosing a floor for your house, like, the designers will know, like, what's the durable ones? What's the ones that are going to fit your need, and your cost, and your budget? And so, like, they don't necessarily need to be a person who's going to lay the floors [laughs], but they need to know what to expect out of what you decide to use. TRENT: Yeah, it's, like, all of these constraints. And so, being familiar with the real-world implications of the decisions we make, you know, inform that. So, yeah, I mean, I think that's pretty similar, too. It's like, well, you need this floor because it's more durable in this climate or whatever, same thing for, you know, the websites that we build. It's all contingent upon the outcomes that, hopefully, we can mutually agree on. You know, there's kind of a general sense of, like, performance is important, and accessibility is paramount and extremely important. But then there's some nuance to that as you get into some smaller decisions. So, having these kinds of discussions early on and frequently and almost...the way I like to think about it is rather than, like, a check-in where we say, "Okay, this is it," but having a place where we can all look to check in and find information and share information that's maybe not so fast. One thing I like to think about is things get lost in chats and maybe even tickets, so as you're closing tickets and opening tickets. There's a bug. I solved it. It's gone. Can you send me this logo? Can we tweak this? These micro changes they open and close very, very quickly. And so, there's this firehose that happens. And so, I find that having a place separate from that for discussing these things and remembering these things, and referencing these things while we are in our code editors or inside of our Figma or any kind of design tool that we use to sort of cross-reference and simmer on things as we think about the decisions that we have to make, as opposed to just knocking them out super quick, always being mindful of those constraints. And again, yeah, the [chuckles] materials we're working with, whether it's just, you know, HTML, CSS, and JavaScript or whatever, but all of those things. It's good to be mindful of that. WILL: I know you said that you've been in design for a while, and so I love just picking the brain of someone who's been into it a while and see how far we've come from, especially just the 2000s. So, in your opinion, with design, how do you feel about where we've come since the beginning of tech to where we're at now and, also, I guess, where we're going with the design? TRENT: Yeah. So, I guess I can really just frame...this is going to help me remember just framing [laughs] where we were. I started off on Homestead, which is sort of like GeoCities. I was in college. I graduated, and I think it was 2001, maybe 2000, anyways. And it was mainly just taking images...I didn't even have Photoshop at this point. And you realize you could, like, tile a background for a build your own website. Homestead was one of those kinds of deals. And I thought that was very interesting. So, I had this cheap digital camera. It took a lot of cords to figure out how to, like, port that onto this old, crappy Hewlett Packard computer that was, like, a hand-me-down. Fast forward a couple of years, I had graduated, did not study design, so I'm all kind of self-taught or just taught by the web, the peers, the information that has been shared and been influenced by. But Dreamweaver was out, and Macromedia was huge, and I loved Fireworks. And so, Dave Rupert, I paid him $80 to teach me HTML [laughs], and so we've been together ever since. This is right out of college. And so, the tools that we used there were pretty rudimentary, but Fireworks was rad. Like, it was kind of web-based. It felt like it made more sense. I love Photoshop, and that's kind of, like, a primary graphic design tool that I still use to this day. But early on, it just felt like everything was so harshly limited. So, if you had any kind of idea that you wanted to execute that you could just draw on a piece of paper, mock it up in Photoshop, the amount of work that you had to do to get that to happen was either extremely high, or it was just impossible. And then, if it was impossible, I bet you can guess what we did. We went to Flash, and we made, like, a crappy video of a web page that was not accessible and really hard to use. I was heavy into Flash for, like, two or three years until kind of, as I had been warned by Dave that, you know, HTML and CSS are going to be the way the web works. But when I came back to that, there was this wonderful time where it felt like we were charting out every single...it was just new territory. It's like we had come to this other planet or this other world, and everything that needed to be done, we had to figure out how, like, getting web fonts onto pages, rounding borders. I mean, getting that done aside from slicing images in Fireworks felt like this new monumental discovery that changed the lives of many. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but in my world, it felt like that. And so, early on, you can look back on it and go, gosh, everything was a pain in the ass, like, living with all of these limitations. But for me, I do look back at it like that, but I also look back on it as this wonderful time where we were building the web that we're working on now. So, all these things that make designing easier and quicker come with some sort of a, you know, an evolution of your perception, and [inaudible 13:14] fond memories of work along the way. For me, it's sort of I've just always sort of been around working on the web and watching design evolve, and every little step maybe feels like a tiny one or a large one. But these days, it just seems like, oh, this is exactly how it should have [laughs] always been, like, convenient grids and convenient box shadow and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, it's been nice to sort of grow up only being a web designer. Like, I mean, I've done graphic design. I've done brochures and, print design, and logo design for sure. But, I have always been anchored to and centered around web design and thinking about things in the context of how they will be applied to the web first and foremost. MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you’re tight on time and investment, which is why we’ve created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product’s next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at tbot.io/entrepreneurs. VICTORIA: So, what was the turning point for you that led you to found Luro? How did it all get started? TRENT: With Paravel, the agency days, we had a lot of fun. I think, for us, our big agency spike was when responsive web design came out. Ethan coined the term. There was a lot of people on the web, you know, a lot of agencies or a lot of teams, a lot of companies that needed to pivot into that. And so, we found this great working relationship with companies where we would come in and sort of had a little bit more practice just because we got in early learning kind of how to do that well, I think. And it was a sort of we're going to redesign a page, a homepage perhaps, or, like, a marketing page. You'll do that project; three to six months go by. And then the next thing turns into, well, we have this giant network of e-commerce stores. We have this giant network of pages with, like, download centers and support documents. And now, we need to make everything responsive, and it can be anything. We need to make everything accessible. We need to make everything performant. We need to update the brand on everything. And I don't think we're alone in this. I think this is the beginning of the greater design system discussion as it applies to the web. Obviously, design systems predate the web; design systems pre-date, like, 2012 or '13 or whenever we got into it. But projects started to migrate from, "Hey, can you design this really amazing, responsive marketing page," to "We have a system, and we need you to solve these problems." We love working on those problems. I still do to this day. But the reason why we switched from kind of being a, you know, individual contributor-type agency consultant type roles to building a SaaS product was because we were realizing that things got complicated...is a very, like, boring way to say it. But to get a little deeper, it was, we would see things not ship. So, like, our morale went down. The teams that we were working with morale kind of went down. And as I was digging into why things weren't shipping...and when I mean ship, I think, like, pages would ship, of course. Like, here's a page. It just needs to be built, somebody decided, or a new feature needs to be built. Of course, those went out. But the idea of, is our design system or the system that we're designing launched? Is it applied? Is it fully adopted? Is it partially adopted? It never felt like the amount of traction that we were promising or that we were being asked for. And I don't mean we, as in just the three of us, but the entire team or the entire organization who, in many cases, all were bought into the idea of design systems. So, what we found was, when things got real, and we had to give up things, and we had to work on things and prioritize things, it became much more difficult to work in that capacity, probably partially because of the cross-discipline nature of those things. So, as opposed to what I consider maybe a miserable way to work in many cases, is the classic; here's my Photoshop comp. And I have a red line document JPEG that I will give you, whatever engineer I'm working with, or it's myself, and I'm just giving myself a red line document, but you're just going through and trying to make those things match. And that is sort of not fun for the team because now we're just sort of chiseling each other and sort of, like, going through and critiquing our work over and over versus really kind of in the spirit of prototyping and inventing together. I find that products are diminished when you do that. So, as you try to get into this design system part, it requires a lot more insight into what everyone around us is doing, kind of, as I was saying at the beginning, how to have this cross-discipline view of what we are actually working on. And that view is what we thought, and we still believe in many cases, is absolutely missing. So, you can spin up a design system. And Luro is not the only design system tool. Of course, you can spin up your own. And what I mean by that is, like...I'm maybe going to answer, like, three questions in one. Maybe you haven't even asked them yet. But just to kind of frame this, if you ask anyone what a design system is, it might be a different answer. It might be these are my Figma components that I've created and I've shared out, and there's a public link. You know, an engineer might say, "Well, it's the GitHub repo of components that I'm actually using." So, the design is helpful as documentation. But the design system is the code, or the design system is the actual...or the actual components that are live that users see, which I would argue probably is the most accurate, just because we're talking about user experience impacting whatever business objectives we may have. So, those components need to make their way into live sites or products. So, finding out what that answer is, what's the source of truth? What is our design system? What are our components? What are our standards? You have to have multiple sources for that, just because there's multiple people with multiple opinions and multiple measures of success involved in those. And all of those opinions and measures of success, I would say, are valid. So, accounting for those and kind of crossing the streams, if you will, in one sort of central UI, we believed was crucial enough that we should jump out of the agency days and into a product-building scenario. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. So, you saw this pattern in the delivery of your work as an agency that made you want to build a solution to create better outcomes for a potentially exponential number of clients, right? [chuckles] TRENT: Yeah, hopefully. I think that working on how you work together as a team is vitally important, and if you can find the right environment, then the actual product will benefit. I mean, and I'm not even just thinking about these maybe soft things like, oh yeah, if engineers and designers can work together, the typography will be a little bit better, and the site will feel a little bit more cohesive, and it'll be maybe a little bit easier to digest. I believe that. But I also believe that there are people in organizations doing research, financial analysis, customer analysis, A/B testing, you know, all sorts of work that contributes to the decisions that we make about our sites and products that sort of just gets lost in the shuffle, in the firehose of the day to day. So, having something that takes not only a, I guess, what you could classify as the what for a design system, it could be the design of a component. Maybe it's actually even, too, as well, the code that makes up that component. But then there's this giant why. Why does the button look the way that it does? Why does a card have a border around it? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? These things maybe they come up during meetings. Maybe there's something that, as a designer or an engineer, I found maybe on the company's shared OneDrive or somebody mentioned in passing. Those things are vitally important, and they need to be, again, back to the morale and perception evolving; they need to be accessible to everyone. But it's a needle-in-a haystack situation. It's funny. We would consult. And one of my favorite stories is we were building this prototype. We were hired to build a prototype for a startup in Austin. They were on a big, open floor-plan office with the glass meeting rooms. And we were showing off our prototype, and we just felt really clever and witty about the way we were going to solve this and the pages that we were going to build. And who is a friend now, a person named Angela walks by, and she's like, "What are you working on?" And we told her what it was. And she says, "Oh, wow, you know, six months before you started contracting with the startup, we did this all, and we've user-tested it. Everybody's been reorged, and nobody remembers. But I have this PowerPoint I can send you, and it will show you the results. Some of these things you're doing are probably going to be great. The other things you should absolutely not be repeating these mistakes." And I thought about how likely it was that she walked by and happened to see that through the window and happened to look on the sharp television on the wall. And it's probably not very likely, and as we become, you know, we're remote and working remote the likelihood of those things happening maybe goes down. The idea of building a product that increases the likelihood or almost makes it seamless that you can find information relevant to what you were working on, even if you're new to that project or you haven't worked on it for a long time, is very, very key. So, within Luro, you can build a design system. You can add your styles. You can add your components, configure your tokens, and do all that, but you can also integrate those things that I was mentioning: prototyping, research, and testing. We also do an accessibility and performance through Lighthouse and give you metrics there. All of those things are associated to the pages that your site is comprised of. They're associated to the components that you use to build everything. So, we're sort of crossing the streams here. So, if you're going into imagine a button component and you're like, okay, the border-radius is four pixels. The type size is 16 pixels, and here's how you code it. We're putting in an actual button. The class is dot btn. That's all great. It's helping us build the button. But if you are asked by leadership or anyone, "Why did you decide this?" Or "What is the impact of design?" Or "What is the impact of the product team on our bottom line? How are you moving the needle? How are you helping us as an organization achieve?" The answer isn't, "Well, we made the border four pixels just like the design [chuckles] said." That's great. Good job. But I think having all of this information associated with design and associated with engineering not only makes us more informed as contributors to teams but it helps us to articulate the value of what we do on the daily in a much more broad organizational sense. So, you can say, "Well, we user-tested this, and we realized that if we took out these form elements from a signup flow, we get more signups by having fewer steps. And so we removed a step. We user-tested it before and after, and signups went up 30%." That's a much cooler answer than, "Well, our design system helps us be consistent," even though we know that that is vitally important, and it makes our app or our site feel much more cohesive, and it contributes to that sign up metric or a sales metric just as much. But having this data and associating it with a component so it's not something that you have to sort of...I guess it almost sounds subjective if you bring it up and say, "Well, we're moving faster, and we're selling more stuff." That's not great. But if you can link and say, "Well, here's a PowerPoint before," or "Here's a summary of a user test before and after. Here's real numbers," it helps you to portray yourself as the designer or engineer or product team member who thinks very deeply about these things, and it helps you to accurately portray yourself in that way. So, I went on a real tangent, but actually just there, I think I just was describing sort of the nuts and bolts of why we built Luro to not only be a design system tool but, like, what we kind of also call a product development tool, a product development system. So, it's extending the idea of design systems to the practice of building a product with an entire organization. WILL: That's really, really cool, and you did a great job explaining it. I'm excited to see it and see where it's going. I felt like a lot of what you were saying was the why you're doing stuff, why you chose, you know, X, Y, Z. Is that where the analytics and the tracking portion of Luro comes into play? TRENT: Yeah. I think that one thing we heard a lot from agencies or even just teams within an organization that are working on design systems is back to that articulating the value of maybe a design system or articulating the value of the work that we do as designers or product builders and similar to we've done a user test and these are the results, and sales or signups, or whatever the case may be, have improved. I think one of the key metrics for a design system is, is the component adopted? There are other ones, and people will mention those, things like, is it helping a team be quicker? So, if there's a design system team, and then there's multiple product teams within an organization, and they all want to work together, and they want to be able to take the components that they need and build their ideas quicker, prototype quicker, that's a great metric as well. But one that we find vitally important is, are the components live to users? And so, being able to track that has a lot of value. One, obviously, is that communicating that to the greater organization, saying, "You know, we've spun up a design system team. The card component is on 49% of pages. The button is on 100% of pages." And then if you're trying to be more tactical about how to improve the product or even just track down, you know, which components or which pages or which experiences aren't, I guess, consistent with the design system, you can say, well, "There's 49%, and there's 51% of pages that may or may not have the card component." And so, you can go find outdated components if you're trying to phase new ones in, and all of those sorts of things as well. So, the metrics are sort of great from a thematic sense, saying, this is the value that our design system is, you know, affording us as a business and the users are experiencing while they're using our app or our site. But then, also, you can drill down into these metrics and see, okay, the button is appearing here. I can click into pages and see views where it's being used on the page level and see, is it being used properly? Those kinds of things. You can track legacy components as well, so, for example, if we've rebranded the site that we all work on together and our old button was, like, dot button and the new button is dot BTN or however we would want to class those things. And you can use classes. You can use data attributes, all those kinds of things. But I would say we can track legacy along that. So, if your goal is to completely adopt the new design system across the entire network and products within six months or whatever the case may be, you know, month over month, week over week, you can check our, you know, line graphs and see, hopefully, the legacy occurrences of that going down over time. So, if, like, the button is being used less and less and then the dot BTN is being used more and more, you can see those sort of swap places. And so, what we have found is talking about things in sort of an objective or fuzzy way, saying, well, we're trying to ship this, and we're doing these inventories, and we're going through all the pages. And we're clicking around trying to find old things, or we're redesigning pages. But it's very, very difficult. This is just an instant quantification of where our components are manifesting in the product. So, what we do is, with Luro, you can give us...whether it's behind an authentication layer or not, we crawl web pages, first and foremost. So, you can give us a site. And this is all optional. You can spin out a design system without this. But we crawl the site, and then we will go ahead and do performance and accessibility scores for there. So, that's one way to itemize work, where you can just say, well, as an agency, we're going to work with this company, and we want to show them, like, the starting point and expose weak points on where we might be paying a lot of attention to. In the design or engineering phase, we need to improve the speed here. We have accessibility violations we need to think about, all that kind of stuff. And then, once you crawl those, you can add your design system, and then you can cross-reference those, and I kind of mentioned that. You can use CSS classes to do that. And so, you'd enter in dot BTN for button. We've already crawled your pages. And so, we can tell you every time that that class appears inside of any page inside of the network. So, it's this very, like, two-minute way to get a wealth of information that's shared and communicated with...the entire organization will benefit. Like I said, like, leadership they can get a sense of how the design system is being used and adopted, but also, the active teams working on things so that they can go find outliers and work on replacing those. VICTORIA: It's been over a year in your journey with Luro. What challenges do you see on the horizon? TRENT: I still think it is an adoption challenge. I think that, you know, one thing that we found is that a lot of teams, and this is going back to our agency days, but I sort of sort of still see this happening now is that building the design system, you know, let me separate these two things. I think designing components and building the design system in the sense of picking styles, and choosing fonts, and iterating upon something like a search box or, a footer, or a modal that's a lot of work. That's just design and product design and product development in general. But the act of, you know, creating the design system, maybe it's the documentation site, or however, we're communicating these standards across the organization. That part, to me, it's always kind of taken too much time and effort. And to be really candid, the amount of budget that's being allocated for those tasks is less. So, we're having a lot of users who are saying, "Well, I wasn't in charge of a design system. We had a team for that. We don't anymore. And now I'm responsible for it," or "The team's been combined, and I'm working on, like, three things at once." And so, something that's very, very crucial to us at Luro is to help with the struggle of spinning up a design system. For us, I fully believe that there are design systems that can be fully custom available to the public and need to have, you know, every page and view needs to be unique unto itself. But for Luro, the starting place that we get you with, you know, you can link in your Storybook. You can link in Figma components. You can add components manually and all those sorts of things. Where we can get you in a few minutes is really close. And then, if you started to fold in, you know, the idea of performance, accessibility, and then all of the other insights that you can then integrate, so if you're doing A/B testing or user testing and doing research, and you want to make sure that that's all involved inside of your design system, then it becomes a really attractive option. So, I think that decreasing the time it takes to get started and to spin up a design system is the number one thing we see people struggling with and the number one thing we want to bring. I kind of like to compare it to services like Netlify. Like, I remember I used to have to set up servers to demo things for clients, and it would take an hour, and I don't know what I'm doing. And I would break stuff, and they would have to help me fix it. So, then I'm bothering him. And then, now I'm just, you know, will either link to a CodePen or drag and drop a deployed URL from something like Netlify. And it's this amazing, almost like it feels like deploying is just as difficult as, like, sketching something out on a napkin. We want spinning up a design system to kind of feel that way so it's not so precious. You're not worried about...it is just easy to get started. And so, we're kind of integrating all these other tools that you use to make that easier and quicker because if you do have other things that you're working on and you need to move beyond that so that you can focus on prototyping, or designing, and building the actual components, you can do that. And you have that option as opposed to having to be mired in some of these other details. VICTORIA: It seems like change management and integrating change into larger organizations is always the biggest challenge [laughs], even for great innovations. And I'm curious: what types of people or groups have you found are quick to adopt this new method and really the right group for you to center your message on? TRENT: Yeah, it is...I was joking, I think, maybe before the podcast started, but it's, like, very ambitious because it's easy, I think, to say, "This tool is for designers. And if you're a designer, you can integrate your Figma, and then you'll have your components published to your team so that they can use them." And that's absolutely true. Like, if you're a designer, Luro is for you. If you're an engineer and you have just received components, and you need a way to document that and show your coded version alongside the design version and be able to collaborate with people in that sense, it is absolutely for you as well. So, you can see how it's almost like you almost have to frame Luro for individuals across the organization. So, it's one of those deals where...and we've kind of experimented with this with the marketing. And the way we've discussed it, we talked to lots of, you know, leadership, heads of product, CMOs, even CTOs, things like that. And so, it's like, if you're trying to get your entire organization to work better, to ship, you know, more effectively, then Luro is the tool for that as well because we're getting into knowledge retention via uploading. Like, my favorite story there is if you're an A/B tester, probably, and this is what we've experienced, is you run these tests. A lot of time and effort goes into building the prototypes for the test, whether that's you or an engineering team that's doing those things. This is one of the things we used to do as an agency. We would be brought on to prototype something totally new. We would test that alongside the existing experience. And an A/B tester, we'd work with them, and they would create, like, a PowerPoint or something that would explain the pros and cons and what should happen next and summarize the test. And that would live on that person's hard drive, whether it's on their computer or, like, a Dropbox or a OneDrive account. And no one ever thought about it ever again. You would just move on to the next test. But the amount of money spent on us to build the prototype and the amount of money spent on the SaaS to spin up the, like, A/B testing environment and all of these things, and then the time spent on the A/B tester to analyze the results and generate a PowerPoint it's not nothing. And so, one of the things that we find pretty appealing for leadership within Luro is the idea of integrating all of these tools and all this work that you do in mapping them to components so that when you pull up, for example, a button component, you'll see all the user tests that have been added over any period of time. So, if you were a new hire and you're trying to onboard, you can go interview everybody in the organization and ask them about the history of a button or a card component or the history of a sign-up page. But then, also, in a self-service way, you can just click into Luro, click a button, click a card, click to the sign-up page, any of those things, and find all that stuff I was mentioning earlier, whether it's a test, or research, or prototyping, or any kind of documents that have been written. These aren't the arguments that Dave or I might have around the actual border-radius value. Those are small things that probably should be lost in the firehose. But if we have learned an outline button with a stroke is performing way better than a solid-filled button or vice versa, that's important information that doesn't need to disappear in six weeks. So, that's the other kind of metric there is explaining kind of the holistic version, telling the holistic story of Luro to those types. And so, yeah, navigating that and trying to get, like, buy-in on a broad level is kind of what we're working on these days now. WILL: Sweet. So, I actually really like how it's almost like version control. You can see the history of what you've been working on. And I really like that because so many times...you're correct. When I go to Figma or anything, I'm like, why are we doing it this way? Oh, we made these decisions. Maybe in comments, you can kind of do it, but I think maybe that's the only place you can see the version control. So, I like that feature. Like you said, you can see the history of why you did something like that. TRENT: Yeah. And think about that, so if I am a front-end engineer and I receive a design and everyone thinks that, why are we doing it this way? I would hate to code something...I can do it. It's my job. But if I don't understand why, my feeling about work and maybe the quality of my work goes down, you know what I mean? I guess what I'm trying to say is, like, feeling like you understand, and you're lockstep with the entire team, and you understand what the goal is...what are we trying to do? What are we trying to achieve? Like, what have we reviewed that has made us believe this? And if you don't have that information, or if I don't have that information, like, there's some traction within the team, whether it's actual momentum forward and the amount of tickets that are being closed, or just the spirit of what we're doing, that the product is going to be diminished. These are all these little things that add up, up, up, up, up over time. So, being able to show this information to be able to access this information kind of passively. So, for example, if you got VS Code open and Luro open and you can see here's the user test from six weeks ago that shows us why we went with option B, you'll say, "Okay, cool. Even better." You know, you can review those things way before you get things handed to you. You know, it's much more kind of this utopian vision of an open, collaborative deal. And the way I would say that is it's, you know, we all kind of hand things off. So, of course, like, there's some version, even if it's like a micro waterfall that happens on a daily basis. We're all doing that. Like, somebody needs to be done with something to hand it off to something else, so we're not all up in each other's space all the time. But one thing that we like about Luro, whether we use Teams, or Slack, or whatever, it's not a real-time thing where I have to say, "Stop, look what I'm doing [laughs]. Come over here and look because I need you to know this." You can get notifications from Luro, but it's not something that is a context-switching demand type of a situation. So, the idea is if you're like, I'm wondering what's going on. I know this is coming up. I'd like to review. Or I could let you know and tell you, and just on your own time, you can go see this. So, separate from, like, the firehose of tickets and chats, you can see the actual product evolving and some of these, like, key milestone decisions on your own time and review them. And if they've happened before you even started on the project, then you can do that as well. WILL: I think that's probably where the breakdown between developers and designers that collab that's where it probably breaks down, whenever you're trying to get your tickets out as a developer. And then there's a change while you're working on it, and it's a complicated change, but you're still responsible for trying to get that ticket out in time. So, I think, like, what you're saying, you can get it beforehand. So, it sounds like, to me, Luro would be a huge help because you have to have developers and designers working together; if you don't, you're just in trouble in general. But anything that can help the relationship between the two I think, is amazing, and that's what I'm hearing whenever you're talking about Luro. It helps. It benefits that relationship. TRENT: Yeah, that even makes me think a little bit about the ongoing collaboration aspect. So, it's like, if something is shipped...or maybe let's go the agency scenario here. You've launched a site. You've launched a product. How do we know how it's performing? Of course, you'll have everybody...they're going to have analytics, and we'll be talking about that. And are signups up or down? But Luro will run tests. It'll continue to run component analytics. So, you can sense whether, like, somebody is changing a component. Or, you know, is the fully adopted design system not being utilized or being utilized less or more over time? But then, also, we're running, again, performance and accessibility metrics. So, we've seen it where we've shipped a product for a client. You know, we've had Luro running. We've sort of used that as our hub to collaborate over time. And then we'll notice that there's a giant performance spike and that, like, the page speed has gone way down. And we itemize issues and can point you to exactly the page that it's happening on and give you some insight into that. Of course, you could go through after you've worked with the client and run Lighthouse on every single page in your own time for fun, but that's not reality or fun. So, you'll get this information. And so, you almost...before we were telling people who were using Luro, we were kind of using it ourselves just to help ourselves do a better job. About a month into a project, we were able to email a customer, a former client, and say, "Hey, site's looking great. Amazing to see this. There's a 3-megabyte, 50-pixel avatar. Someone uploaded a giant image. It displays as 50 pixels. But somebody must have uploaded the full one to your homepage, and your page speed score tanked." They're like, "Oh, wow, they must [laughs] be monitoring us and checking in on us every day." We love them dearly, but we were not doing that. We were using Luro off to the side. So, there is this other aspect of just sort of monitoring and making sure things stay, you know, as they were or better once we ship things and move forward to the next. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. And I'm excited to explore more on my own about Luro. As we're coming towards the end of our time today, I wanted to give you one last chance to shout out anything else that you would like to promote today. TRENT: Oh, that's it [laughs], luroapp.com, you know, that's the main thing. Check out component analytics. We have a YouTube channel, and I would say that's probably the easiest, a lot of effort, even though the videos maybe I'd give myself an A-minus or a solid A, not an A-plus on video production. I'm trying to get better. But explaining just, like, how to set things up. There's, like, a one-minute, like, what is all this? So, if you want to see all the things that I've been trying to describe, hopefully well on the podcast [chuckles], you can see that really well. So, I'd say Luro App and then the YouTube channel. We've got, like, five, six videos or so that really kind of help get you into maybe what your use case would be and to show you how easily things are set up. VICTORIA: Great. Thank you so much for joining us today, Trent, and for sharing about your story and about the product that you've been building. TRENT: Yeah. Thank you for having me. This has been great fun. VICTORIA: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. WILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at [email protected] with any questions.

Hosts Will and Victoria sit down with Charlotte Holt, the Founder and Creator of The Fashion Library. Based in London, The Fashion Library is a contemporary wardrobe rental resource tailored for stylists. Charlotte opens up about her diverse background, spanning various countries, and shares the transformative journey that led her from being a stylist to establishing her own venture. Charlotte sheds light on the formidable challenges stylists encounter, from the environmental repercussions of fashion production to the financial constraints of traditional shopping methods. She articulates how The Fashion Library is poised to confront these obstacles head-on by offering a platform that enables stylists to rent clothing, fostering sustainability while saving valuable resources like time and money. Delving into the realm of technology, Charlotte underscores its pivotal role in streamlining operations and catalyzing a paradigm shift towards a more sustainable fashion industry. She outlines her ambitious vision for The Fashion Library's future, encompassing the archive, broadening the user base, and creating a robust marketplace and working platform. The Fashion Library (https://thefashionlibrary.co/) Follow The Fashion Library on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/thefashionlibrary/), TikTok (https://www.tiktok.com/@thefashionlibrary.co), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/thefashionlibrary.co), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/thefashionlibrary.co). Follow Charlotte Holt on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlotte-holt-82343628/). Visit her website at charlotteholt.co.uk (http://charlotteholt.co.uk/) Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript:  WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Charlotte Holt, Founder and Creator of The Fashion Library, London's newest contemporary wardrobe rental resource for stylists. Charlotte, thank you for joining me. CHARLOTTE: Thank you for having me. I never ever thought I would be talking on a podcast. VICTORIA: You never thought that? Why? What did you think would happen? [laughs] CHARLOTTE: As in, like, I never thought I would be on a podcast, me personally. So, like, this is a new experience for me. VICTORIA: Wonderful. Well, I know you're speaking with us today, and just to warm us up a little bit, I'm curious: what other languages could you be speaking to us in? What's your...I heard you learn multiple. CHARLOTTE: So, I actually went to school in the south of France when I was younger. And for the last couple of years, I've been living in Mexico, so I've been trying to learn Spanish. I am pretty proficient in French and getting there in Spanish. VICTORIA: Very cool. I live in San Diego, and I've also been learning Spanish for a long time and love to practice sometimes, so... What about you, Will? Do you speak any other languages? WILL: I used to speak Spanish, but it's so hard when you don't live in that culture to keep it up. Because I've been to, like, Peru a couple of times and some other South American places, but I always pick it up when I go back in there and kind of get the feel for it, but it's kind of hard. I need to pick it back up. But Spanish is the one that I feel the most comfortable in outside of English. VICTORIA: Right. We're a bilingual nation. And so, I love that opportunity to get to meet other people and speak in other languages and practice that. So, Charlotte, coming back to your journey, it sounds like you've lived in all these interesting places. Why don't you tell us just a little bit more about your background? CHARLOTTE: I am from Scotland originally. I know I don't sound like it. And then I went to school in the South of France for two years, like, to finish high school. Then I ended up back in the UK, living in London for 12, 14 years. And then, just as COVID was happening, I was actually supposed to kind of relocate or start working more in the U.S., and I actually ended up in Mexico [chuckles], of all places, and that's where I stayed for two years. I was living the good life. I had a pretty good COVID experience. I was at the beach every day surfing, so I can't complain about that. And then I've been living in the U.S. on the West Coast in Los Angeles before I decided to set up my new business, which has brought me back to London. VICTORIA: Wow, full circle. Well, what beach were you surfing on in Mexico, or did you go to a bunch of different ones? CHARLOTTE: I've been to a bunch, but I was living in Sayulita. I've still got a place there that I keep because I love to be in the ocean. It's one of my favorite things to do. Surfing is definitely a good lifestyle choice of mine. VICTORIA: There's not much surfing in London now, so your desire to start your new company must be really powerful [chuckles], very strong. CHARLOTTE: Yeah, I actually have questioned myself, especially over the last few months when it's been full, mid-winter here: cold, dark, raining. Like, what am I doing? Why did I give up my kind of dream life working between LA and Mexico, being able to surf, you know, at least two, three, four times a month to come back here to do this? But the bigger picture is, hopefully, I will be able to go and surf wherever I like after I've built this business. So, that's kind of the end goal for me. VICTORIA: Yeah. Tell me more about what led you to start your own business. CHARLOTTE: I have been working as a stylist for the last 12-plus years. And then, obviously, my work took me to the U.S. A friend of mine gave me his little black book contacts of where I should go and places I should use in LA. And I walked into a rental house there that was for industry only and got a lightbulb moment. I was like, oh my God, why is this not happening back in London? And it kind of didn't make sense to me because the productions back in the UK are, well, they seem more sustainable. Everyone's hitting their kind of green quotas and targets. So, it just made sense to me, but not just from, like, the sustainability point of renting clothes, but also having an industry-only place that you can go to and basically prep most of your job in one go. So, it was, like, saving time on the start of the job but also on the end, which is the return side, which people don't always realize. Everyone's like, "Oh, it's so glamorous working in fashion and styling." But we are bag ladies. I will often have minimum six, eight cases with me, rails and rails, racks and racks of clothes. I'm always the first one there. I'm the last one there because we're packing away. It's lots of steaming, just lots of stuff. So, to me, it just made perfect sense to recreate the same thing in London. But then I started getting into it a little bit more and started looking at tech and how that can transform what we're doing, too. WILL: Before we get too deep into The Fashion Library, I want to, one, explain what a stylist does because, like I said, I am not fashion-forward or friendly. So, tell me kind of what that looks like to do. And also, how did you become a stylist? Was it a dream of yours always, or what did that look like? CHARLOTTE: I just love clothes. So, I actually was going to be a lawyer, and I went to school to study law [chuckles], and I ended up being a stylist. So, there's different kind of realms and levels of a stylist. You can be a personal stylist where you work in the consumer realm, helping people dress themselves. Then, you have your editorial stylists who create beautiful imagery for magazines. Then there's the commercial stylists who work on advertising, film, TV production. Then you've got your celebrity stylists. There's different kind of layers within being a stylist. I actually work across a broad range of that. I do editorials, so magazines. I've worked with some talent, music videos, TV commercials, short films, stills, and advertising campaigns. And what I really love is how different every job is. It's never the same. You're never with the same crew of people. Every job is different. Sometimes, you might be on set for just one day. Sometimes, you're on set for a week. There's weeks and weeks of prep that goes into the job. There's also a lot of work on the backend doing returns, and budgeting, and reconciling everything. You literally have to love clothes. WILL: Where did your love for clothes come from? CHARLOTTE: [chuckles] That's a good question. I always thought it was my mum, but, actually, it was definitely my dad. I look at pictures of him from the '70s, '80s. He's got some wild outfits on. And I've got some of his pieces. I've got this floral jacket that we all used to get dressed up in when we were younger because it's the most outrageous piece. I have it now. It's actually amazing. I actually had it on the other week with just a little black vest and some jeans. And because it's such a statement piece, it looks super cool, but it's classic '60s. So yeah, definitely from my dad. He had a wild penchant for clothes. VICTORIA: I loved how you brought up, in the beginning, that the role of a stylist is often portrayed as being very glamorous and being very just so fun and creative and how the reality of it is that it's more carrying bags around, and picking up at the end of the day, and getting the clothes ready, and how tedious that can be. And you discovered technology could take some of that tedious out of the process and allow stylists to focus their time on the creative aspects. CHARLOTTE: Yeah. So, originally, my plan with The Fashion Library was just to kind of replicate what was happening in the U.S. with the rental house models and just bring it here. And I have a friend who I met surfing in Mexico. He's in his 50s, very successful tech entrepreneur. And I wanted to run my business past him just to kind of get some outsider knowledge but someone who's been there and done it. And he actually said to me, he was like, "This is great, but you should really, like, start to look at tech and how that is going to really transform businesses in the future." And he flicked that switch on, and that was it. Then, I think a couple of weeks later, I started sending him all my brain dumps about tech and what I was thinking in my mind. And he actually turned around and said to me, "If you can see it in your mind, you can build it." So, I started to look at my pain points as a stylist. And I work differently in every city because you have to adapt. Like, in LA, I'm often out and about compared to London, where I work a lot online. So, I started to look at, like, the pain points of everywhere and what would really be beneficial. It always kind of dialed back to that question of, what would help me as a stylist? So, that's how I've built the business, by looking at that aspect and what's helpful, what's not. WILL: Yeah, I like that view because I totally agree. Tech is in pretty much everything. It's all about, how can you see it to help you with your pain points? So, that's amazing that you sat back; you saw the pain points, and it helped you create what you're doing. So, that's really, really amazing. Can you tell me more about The Fashion Library? What does that look like? What did you create? What was your pain points? CHARLOTTE: We launched in mid-July last year with a physical showroom of around 500 pieces, which was just my archive. And then I'd built out a very rough and ready Shopify to kind of replicate what was going on in the physical realm but in the virtual realm. I hadn't shot all those pieces, so it was maybe only 200 pieces online. And then, within two weeks, I'd managed to grow the archive to well over a thousand pieces, and then I was like, ugh, I need to get all this shot now. And it's me doing all of this. I'm working with a friend who's a photographer. And I style all the pieces on a ghost mannequin. I've already thought about some techie idea in my head about how to get around that in the future. I don't know if it's possible, but I can see it in my mind. We can build it. So, I just wanted them both to kind of work in the physical and virtual realm, but then, obviously, always going back to John's advice from Mexico that, you know, really start to look more into the tech. And the tech's definitely taken over. We haven't built any yet. We are currently about to start raising because we want to build a fully functional marketplace that's industry-only. There's going to be a phase three, which will be a whole working platform that will streamline the working process from start to finish with lots of clever little things thrown in. And I don't want to give too much away on this because it is just in my mind right now. Obviously, it's on paper, too, but I've just been looking at what else is going on in the fashion realm, in the fashion tech realm, and there's lots of exciting things. There was a stylist who reached out to me just before Christmas. She's actually an avatar stylist. So, I was really interested to speak to her. They're currently creating avatars from humans. So, soon, everyone's going to be able to have their own avatar if they want. But there's some really, really interesting and innovative stuff happening within the tech space, and there's definitely exciting things. And I can see a lot of scope in the future for The Fashion Library in terms of how we build the tech and adapt and how we kind of disrupt the industry, not just here in the UK, but globally. VICTORIA: Thank you for sharing all of that. I think that's so interesting. And I also really love that you made the connection from surfing that got you excited about tech and excited about all these possibilities that you're describing. I'm just imagining, like, a little side conversation while you're paddling around out in the ocean [laughs]. But I don't know if that's how it really happened. Mid-Roll Ad: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don’t have all year to do extended research. In just a few weeks, thoughtbot’s Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We’ll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts. Maximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint. VICTORIA: What's your method for engaging with the industry on this issue and building your customer discovery process? CHARLOTTE: Obviously, it's something I'm really passionate about. I knew that there would be others out there, too. We've been hunting for the stylists currently, so LinkedIn, this platform called The Dots here, Instagram, obviously, and then also connecting, like, higher up the food chain with production companies, ad agencies, really kind of targeting it from the top bottom down. And then, the last couple of months, we've been focused on finding some founding members who are busy working commercial stylists who love the idea of sustainability and rental and want to be early adopters and users of The Fashion Library. We've had great feedback from them. So, having that feedback from people and it being positive is like a driving force behind what we're trying to create and creating. VICTORIA: Has there been anything surprising in your conversations that has caused you to maybe pivot in your strategy? CHARLOTTE: I mean, definitely, when I first took the idea to my surfing friend in Mexico, he really made me pivot from bricks and mortar into tech. I was always going to build out a tech platform, but it was literally just going to be online rental, just because of how I like to work in the UK. I think talking to him that really opened my eyes. And then, also, kind of going off and launching really then understanding what he'd said to me. Because I think after I launched, I realized that actually the bricks and mortar is nice, and it's really nice to have that space and the showroom as a showcase, but it's not where I want to be. I'm really excited and really focused to get the tech going. It's really exciting. And if we can create what I'm envisaging, I think it's going to be so useful. VICTORIA: Yeah. And I love that you're really focused on a specific group and creating something for the industry that you're in. Can you share any other specific problems or challenges that a stylist may have with a wardrobe rental app versus a person like me who's just trying to, like, rent a dress for the weekend or something? CHARLOTTE: Yeah. Well, that's the thing. I mean, rental is trending as a whole globally. So, there are a lot of consumer-facing rental apps and businesses out there. But the thing about stylists is it's quite a lonely career. Yes, you have your assistants, but until you're on set or with your clients, you're pretty much on your own. And I think after COVID, there was that real push for community. And also, as stylists, we tend to sit on big archives that we've collected from jobs, or we've had custom pieces made that actually never went to set or got used. And we don't want to get rid of them because they're special to us, but at the same time, they're just kind of sitting there gathering dust. So, being able to put those out to your peers and know that they're, like, going to go onto an advertising job or a TV commercial, or, I don't know, a short film, or a feature film, or on talent is kind of exciting because they're almost getting repurposed for what they were originally purposed for. And also, being able to make money from your dormant archive that's kind of a cool thing; it's a first. And knowing that it's not in the customer consumer realm, so you don't really have to worry too much about your amazing couture dress that you had for this artist and it was never worn going to a wedding and getting trashed. WILL: I think I understand kind of what the flow is. So, for example, if tomorrow I want to become a stylist, before The Fashion Library, would I have to own all my pieces to even get into the space? CHARLOTTE: It really depends what kind of realm you're working in. Obviously, if you're working on editorial and with celebrities, you tend to get pieces from brands because they give you pieces or loan you pieces for publicity, so it's kind of a two-way deal. However, when you're working on film, TV, commercials, advertising, you get given production budgets, like, wardrobe budgets. So, the current way that we work is we go out and shop, and we shop a lot. And we also fuel the fast fashion monster because a lot of the time, we have minimal budgets. We have this store in the UK, and it's called Primark. It's very, very, like, cheap and not good for the environment, and there's also ASOS as well. There's all this kind of online fast fashion places. And it's, like, you get the budget, and they want Prada, or they want designer and luxury. However, you've only got the budget to afford Primark or ASOS. And, actually, what a lot of people don't realize is that stylists spend a lot. Say they get given a £2,000 or $2,000 budget; they will spend £6,000 or $6,000, and what isn't used, they then return. But because they're buying into the fast fashion brands, a lot of the time, once they do those returns, especially the online stores, it goes back, and it's actually landfilled or incinerated because the price point for them to repackage it is so minimal that it's actually cheaper for them to just get rid of it. So, we are actually really adding to the problem of fashion being a massive pollutant globally. WILL: I didn't even catch that part, but yeah, that sounds amazing that not only, you know, if you said, "I had a budget for this movie or whatever. Can I get more pieces?" Because I'm looking at your website right now, and it looks cheaper to rent them than if I was buying them outright. So, I have more choices, but also, I'm saving the world. That sounds, yeah, that's a win, win, win. CHARLOTTE: Yeah, that's so right. One of our slogans is, 'Saves time, money, and the planet.' VICTORIA: It sounds like a core value that drives your everyday decisions. Are there any other values that help guide you as a founder as you're building your business? CHARLOTTE: Just the positive feedback from everyone in the industry, whether that's from the producers, production companies, stylists, just everyone getting it because it is such a simple idea. So, it's just having that recognition and just knowing that what you've envisaged and you're creating is valued. That's a huge driving factor for me. VICTORIA: And what does success Look like in six months or in five years from now? CHARLOTTE: I think in six months, it will be to have a business that is growing and really living up to its foundations of helping stylists, making their lives easier, saving time, money, and the planet, growing the archive to double what it is currently. So, it's currently around 2,000 pieces. It'd be great to have 4,000-plus in the next six months. Continue to grow our user base, and just expand on that, and grow the connections that we're already creating within the industry with our affiliations with the green sustainability companies. There's some exciting things happening. I don't want to talk about them just because until they're, like, done, I'm always a bit like, oh, I don't know if I should put that out there yet. But yeah, generally, just, like, expanding and building the business and also completing the first raise and starting to build and develop the tech. That's something I'm really ready and excited to do. It's scary, but it's also super exciting. WILL: Yeah. I can't wait to see what comes out of it because it seems like you can go so many directions with this. Because, like you were saying, like, brick and mortar versus tech and, like, that means you can reach anywhere that you can ship products to, instead of having to come to one location. Even nowadays, like, Amazon does a little bit of it, but like, when you're trying to buy furniture or something, you can put it in the room and see how it sits there and stuff. So, it's so many things because I know, like, fashion, the one thing I do know about fashion is how it looks on the person, so, like, you know, seeing how it looks on that person through technology. I'm so excited because I can see so many directions you can go with it. CHARLOTTE: Will, you are right on the money there. I'm not going to say too much more, but yeah, you're definitely getting my vision a little bit. There's so much scope for it, too. And also, I mean, what you've kind of touched on is what I've envisaged. But, again, it's also, like, just keeping focused and keeping on that path for now because there's also so many different avenues further down that you can go into, too. Like, the potential and possibility with this is endless. VICTORIA: What advice do you have for other founders out there who are building products in the fashion industry? CHARLOTTE: That it's okay to make mistakes. You've actually just got to start. That's one of the things. You know, I worked on this for almost a year and a half before I brought it live. And I think I wanted to be as ready as possible. And knowing that it's okay to not have all the answers and, also, being able to learn really quickly and ask for help from people that you trust, and that age-old saying of trust your gut. If something with someone doesn't feel right, it's probably not, so just trusting that. And also, just being able to pivot. You can't be so focused and rigid with what you're trying to create because it's going to, I mean, mine's changed so much from what I initially envisaged to where I'm at now, and it's going to keep changing. And that's okay because it needs to be adaptable in order to succeed and survive, I think. And also, you're going to get a lot of people who are going to promise so much. At the end of the day, no one's going to work on it as hard as you are, and that's okay. But don't trust everyone who says they're going to do X, Y, Z for you because, usually, they're not. And they're always the ones that fall at the first hurdle. WILL: One thing I love about doing this podcast is listening to entrepreneurs and their mindset and how they got to the place to even, like you said, start something. I feel like that's one of the biggest hurdles is just starting something. I want to understand more about your mindset. What is your wind in your sails? What motivates you? CHARLOTTE: I got this idea. I've always had ideas but just generally just spoken about them and never really took them to fruition, whereas with this one, I was adamant I was going to do it. I actually ended up having my heart and soul ripped out of me and was, like, rock bottom, and this was already after I'd had this idea about this. And it was that need to, like, just heal and grow that I really just threw my all into it and was like, you know what? I'm going to try this. Like, I just suddenly found my path, and I just got so focused and determined on building this, so I haven't looked back yet. Trusting your idea, knowing that it's okay to, like, make mistakes from time to time. But just being a little bit naïve, I've definitely learned a lot. But yeah, just having that determination and discipline to just keep going. Even when people who've promised you the world, like, ghost you or disappear on you, if it's your baby and it's your vision and you believe in it, you can make it happen. VICTORIA: Thank you. That's really wonderful advice, and I think will really resonate with our listeners. Do you have anything else that you'd like to promote today? CHARLOTTE: Yeah, so anyone involved in film, TV, and advertising production, or any stylists and costume designers, follow us on Instagram. Join our mailing list via our website, even if you're not London and UK-based, because we've got some really big, big things coming over the next 12 months. So, I know we're only London and the UK at the moment, but the vision is global. So, join us on our mission. VICTORIA: That's so exciting. Thank you so much for coming on to the show and sharing your story with us. CHARLOTTE: Thank you for having me. VICTORIA: You're welcome. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. WILL: And me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at [email protected] with any questions.

Kristian Ranta, the founder of Meru Health, shares the company's journey from its inception to its current status as a leading provider of mental health solutions. Kristian reflects on the decision to pivot Meru Health from a wellness-focused to a healthcare-centered company, emphasizing the importance of overcoming fears and listening to intuition in entrepreneurial pursuits. He discusses the challenges and rewards of building a healthcare startup, highlighting the complexities of navigating regulatory frameworks and securing insurance reimbursements. Throughout the conversation, Kristian elaborates on Meru Health's unique approach to mental healthcare, which integrates therapy, coaching, and app-based interventions to offer users a holistic and personalized experience. He underscores the significance of community support in mental health treatment and explains how Meru Health's platform fosters connection among individuals facing similar challenges. Kristian also delves into the company's plans for expansion, both within the United States and globally, while addressing ongoing challenges such as securing insurance reimbursements and maintaining high standards for talent acquisition. Meru Health (https://www.meruhealth.com/) Follow Meru Health on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/meru-health/), X (https://twitter.com/meruhealth), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/meruhealth/), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/meru_health/). Follow Kristian Ranta on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristian-ranta/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido, and with me today is Kristian Ranta, CEO and Founder for Meru Health, a new standard for mental health care. Kristian, thank you for joining me. KRISTIAN: Thanks, Victoria. Great to be here today. Appreciate it. VICTORIA: Wonderful. To break the ice a little bit to get us started in the conversation here, I don't know if you can hear it, but I have a slight cold and congestion going on. And since you're a healthcare startup, I thought I would ask you, what is your favorite comfort food when you're sick? KRISTIAN: I don't know whether it's a comfort food or not, but I think kind of what I always consume if I get, like, some flu symptoms or stuff like that it's ginger, honey, and then garlic. I try to combine these things, and it's semi-tasty. Like, it depends on, like, how strong you make it, but it's definitely effective. So, it's been my go-to thing when I get sick. VICTORIA: Me too. I like to try to put all those things into a soup of some kind [laughs], some chicken soup. I've learned how to make some sort of version of congee, which is, like, a rice porridge, which I love because you can kind of just sit it on the stove, and it cooks all day. And you could add in all those flavors, and it comes together really nicely. For me, I think that's really nice to think about what you like to eat when you're sick because when you're sick, it affects everything else going on in your body. So, I'm sure you have some personal experiences about how your mental health and your physical health are all interrelated. KRISTIAN: I mean, totally. Actually, like, I've been a biohacker for quite a while. So, I've been, like, just trying a bunch of things, like, on the physical health side and, like, exercise. And I'm from Finland originally, so a lot of cold exposure, sauna, swimming in the icy water, stuff like that. And then, of course, a lot of, like, different dietary tests that I've done over the years. And I think there's, yeah, I've recognized that there's a huge connection, and it's like the mind and the body are not, like, disconnected. They're in a way the same. Personally, also, like, a big piece kind of for me in this regard has been my journey of meditation. So, I started maybe, like, 10, 12 years ago, started meditating every day, and then I've done a bunch of different retreats and kind of dug deeper. Especially through meditation, I've learned very [inaudible 02:15] to experience the connectedness of my thoughts, and my emotions, and feelings, and the body. So, anyway, that's, like, one of my favorite topics, so... VICTORIA: So, it sounds like you've always had this interest in the mind-body connection and how to optimize your health. How did that lead you, or what about your background led you to found Meru Health? KRISTIAN: I'm from Finland originally. So, I moved to the States in 2018 with Meru Health with my current company. But way back, I studied computer science, did my undergraduate and graduate studies in Finland. And then I kind of, like, ended up working at a healthcare company, a startup company, while I was still studying. And I worked there for a couple of years. And this company was a clinical trial software company, so making it easier for pharmaceutical companies to collect data in patient trials for, like, new drugs, and new developments, and stuff like that. I was basically at that company for a couple of years, and that was my first dip into healthcare and technology, the intersection. And I got so excited, and I realized that, hey, this is a place where I can use my excitement for technology and my skills and all that stuff. But I can also then, like, see the immediate improvement in people's lives and how we can help others, and that kind of resonated with me. So, I quit after two years and then founded my first own business, which was in diabetes, so one of my co-founders back then is a diabetic. And that's kind of, like, how I went into healthcare. And, for me, then learning the mind and body connection started at the same time. Pretty much I kind of, you know, again, mentioned that I've been meditating for a while. So, I started meditating, and I started just learning about these things and just, like, became super curious to understand the human experience on a more broad basis. So, that's how I started. VICTORIA: I love that. And I'm curious if you could talk more about the mind-body connection and also maybe to describe, like, how these issues are treated currently. Being in the United States, it's like, you have a doctor for your body, and then one for your brain, and one for your teeth, and one for your feet. And it's kind of interesting that it's broken up that way. But what's your take on how healthcare treats people now for mental health versus physical health symptoms, and what would be the ideal state? KRISTIAN: I think that's one of the fundamental challenges of our time, that there's all these silos in healthcare. Because, again, what we know already today is that, like, your emotions and your thoughts have a huge impact on your physical body, and, you know, you can experience that yourself. Everyone can experience that by doing meditation, and yoga, and things like this. And you can start learning and feeling and seeing that, like, very concretely in your own ways. There's also something called biofeedback, which you can do with some of the apps like Aura and, like, Headspace and others. And then you can you do it with some wearables like with Fitbits and others, where through your breathing, you can, like, instantly see, actually, the changes in your heart rate variability, meaning that your nervous system state changes in real-time. So, some of these things were, like, eye-openers for me. And I realized that if we, like, keep on focusing on some areas separately, that's going to be challenging because, you know, we're not going to see the full picture. And that's exactly what Western medicine is doing today. On the other hand, I think there's hope because, you know, there's more and more interest and more and more, like, bridging the gap here going on with companies like Meru, but also with, like, many, many other companies and many other providers and practitioners that are working in this domain. That's kind of, like, fundamentally the challenge that if we, let's say, we go to a physical doctor, like, a primary care doctor, they never, almost never, address any of the mental health things, although we all know that they have a huge impact on your physical health. Like, there's a ton of research that stress has a big impact on your diabetes, as an example, and your glucose balance if you're a diabetic. Like, usually, no doctor, you know, your endocrinologist or diabetes doctor will not talk about the stress or will not really, like, address the mental side of your diabetes. So, I think still, like, disconnected, but there are numerous areas where reconnecting these things better will be beneficial. And that's, again, one of my sort of personal goals in life and my mission to, like, drive this change [inaudible 06:06] in the future. VICTORIA: Well, that makes sense to me as someone...I grew up with a parent who had type 1 diabetes their entire life. And what's also, like what you're saying, what's not discussed is if you get a diagnosis like diabetes, that also has an effect on your mental health. And you can stress about it. It can lead to depression. It can kind of make everything a lot worse. Do you also have any personal experience that led you to be really motivated in solving this problem? KRISTIAN: One thing that I've openly shared is that I, unfortunately, I lost my oldest brother, Peter, to suicide. You know, the story with him, he was struggling with mental health challenges for a long time. He got access to care in terms of, like, he got medication. And, you know, prescription medications, unfortunately, for him, just made it worse. And he ended up, like, not really, like, benefiting, but just actually, like, struggling more and more. And that's actually one of the things, also, what I realized when I founded Meru Health after my, you know, I used to be in diabetes with my first ventures. But now building my third healthcare business, Meru Health; it got started from my realization that the mental health industry is broken. Like, most people are only getting access to psychiatric drugs, as an example, as a sole remedy. Like, you know, they don't have access to a therapist. They don't have access to any kind of support. They just see a PCP for 10 minutes, and they get a prescription, and off you go. And then the PCP, you may not see the PCP anymore at all, or maybe in, like, three months, you have, like, a phone call with them or whatever. So, like, that's kind of the experience also with my brother through which I realized this is not adequate. This is crazy. Like, if that's the way we're trying to treat these conditions, it's not going to work. And through that, I did a lot of research and a lot of investigations in my early days before founding Meru Health after I had sold my last company. And what I realized, there's roughly, like, two-thirds of people that get access to mental health care, like, either psychiatric medication or maybe some therapy. Two-thirds of people still they don't respond to that care at all. One-third will respond, and only one-sixth will actually reach full remission of symptoms, meaning that they are completely in the clear with their symptoms. So, that was kind of a crazy revelation for me that, like, two-thirds, like, are not getting anything out of these treatments. So, that's how I kind of eventually then realized that, okay, we got to rethink this model. Like, this model isn't working. Like, if we are only giving people mainly access to these two remedies and only, like, one-third's getting any benefits, then this is, like, really bad. Like, we got to do something about it. And that's again why, you know, I founded Meru Health and Meru Health being about a more holistic approach, not just about, like, talk therapy or psychological aspects, but also sleep, nutrition, biofeedback, learning to regulate your body, your nervous system. There's a community, peer support community, and there are providers. You work with providers as well. But that's on the background why I kind of became super passionate about mental health care and what were some of the insights that I gained where I realized that this system is, like, so broken; we got to do something about it. VICTORIA: Well, I have so many questions about Meru Health. But before we get into that, you mentioned you had started two other healthcare companies before this one. So, as a serial entrepreneur, what lessons were the most important that you took from those previous experience going into starting Meru Health? KRISTIAN: There's many. So, I mean, like, first of all, when I founded my first company, I was, like, straight out of school, like, pretty young. And, I mean, like, I struggle so bad. Oh, it was such a hard journey. Like, it was a medical device company, glucose monitoring. So, founding a medical device company in Finland back in the day straight out of school was, like, a huge struggle. Eventually, we, you know, we sold the business after, like, seven years or so, but it was, like, a big learning curve for me, a lot of blood, sweat, and tears [laughs] for sure. I think few learnings from that first business were it's extremely important to design your culture, and, like, culture is everything. Like, culture eats strategy for breakfast. So, if you don't have a culture that's clearly thought through and designed, it's going to end up being whatever. Like, I mean, like, every organization has a culture, but, like, mostly, the culture has not been intentionally designed. And why that's important is that if you just let it grow weeds, whatever, it will grow in various different directions, but it does not necessarily serve its purpose that you may have had in mind. And, again, what I realized is that when you hire people, and you start growing the company, it's extremely important to, like, calibrate the values of, like, why are you doing this? What's important for this culture? Like, how do you want to work? Why do you want to work? And then, like, what are the kind of different rules and rituals and, like, habits of the organization that will make it successful in its mission? I never knew that when I founded my first company, and the culture became, whatever, erratic. Like, you know, it was just, like, really hard, also, because of that. And we were not able to recruit the best people or the right kind of people for the right roles because we weren't clear on, like, what are the values? Like, why would someone want to work with us? And how to streamline these things. So, I think that's the single biggest learning for me so far on my entrepreneurial journey that you got to very intentionally think about why do you want to build a company, whatever company you're founding. Why do you want to do it? What's going to get you up from bed every day to do your thing? And then, like, how do you want to work? Like, how do you want to work, yourself, accountability? You know, all these things. And what do you expect from others? Like, how do you want to work with other people? So, that's kind of, like, what we actually...with my current business, Meru Health, like, we had, like, a value workshop with my co-founders before we founded the company. And we actually spent a lot of time in aligning and thinking about, like, these questions. Like, why do we want to do this? And with Meru's case, all of us founders we have mental health struggles in our family, so we all kind of came together because of that. We wanted to, like, help fix, at least make a dent in the system. And then, you know, we kind of spend a lot of time thinking about also, like, how do we want to work with each other? The listeners thinking of founding a company, it's just really, really important to think about, like, also, how do you work? Like, what's the level of accountability with each other? And then, how do you, like, if you hire the first employees, how do you also translate these things to them as well so that there's cohesion, that there's, like, alignment in the team? Because if all the arrows, so to speak, if they all point out in different directions, you're not going to create momentum, which you'll need to be able to break through and get to your first milestones as a company. So, I think that's the most important. I could, you know, talk about that for a day or so, but that's, like, the most essential learning for me personally, which I've applied, like, carefully after that. VICTORIA: Well, I can imagine that having a clear vision and a set of values that you all know you're working together helps create a good emotional environment for everyone who's at the company, including you who's going to be repeating what the values are, and what the purpose is, and what you're trying to get done as the CEO. KRISTIAN: Totally, yeah. Yeah, and, I mean, like, I can also, like, maybe continue on one more point there. One of the values for Meru Health we actually chose compassion and kind of kindness. Why did we do that? Like, many people have asked us like, "Why do you have, like, compassion or kind...like, why is it relevant for your startup?" Well, I think it's extremely relevant because, like, there's not enough kindness in the world. If you're kind of intentionally building kindness into your organization, you know, you're also going to enjoy the journey so much more yourself. Because myself and my co-founders, we all figured that, like, we've all been part of other startups and being in, you know, at consulting firms, and we've been grinding like hell at different places. And, you know, it can be exciting. It can be fun. But it also can be pretty, like, challenging sometimes. But we figured that if we are able to instill or kind of, like, inject kindness into this kind of founding spirit of our company, into the culture of our company, Meru Health, you know, it's going to be so much more fun for us and also for all the future employees. We know it's going to be hard. Like, building healthcare businesses and healthcare companies is really, really hard. It can take, like, a long time. It's a marathon. It's not a sprint. So, you kind of, like, need to do it for a long time and be committed and hold yourself and the team accountable. But you can do it in a way that's fun, and you can do it in a way that's, like, kind. You can be respectful, and you can be kind towards others. And it's going to be much more of a pleasant journey. So, that's one concrete example of, like, what came out of our value workshop and why we chose kindness or compassion as one of our values. VICTORIA: I think that's so important and a really great foundation to build your team on and to really find the best talent that fits what you're trying to do. So, once you founded the company, you had your values workshop. What were some of the early discoveries in your process for founding Meru Health that maybe led to a pivot or a change in the way you were approaching the problem? KRISTIAN: I had a pretty good sense of, like, what the problem was. So, as I described, like, I did a lot of research on the problem and, like, really understanding what are the caveats in the current mental health care system? Like, what's not working? So, I had a pretty clear understanding. And, again, like, having built other healthcare businesses before, I kind of, like, had a lot of experience already in general, like, how to build healthcare businesses. So, that was kind of a helpful starting point for me. But what happened, actually, in the early days was that we first started from a more preventative perspective. So, actually, our first product was more of kind of a coach-led or a kind of a...it was more, like, a coach-led approach to workplace wellness and prevention of mental health problems. And we kind of built an app-based program where, you know, we'd have a coach work with you through video calls and through chat, and then you'd have, like, different lessons and different activities in the app on a week-by-week basis. And, in many ways, like, that worked pretty well. Like, people were excited. We got engagement, and we sold that to, like, a bunch of enterprise customers. And there was excitement. But we realized a couple of things in the early days, which is really important, and this was, like, the first half [inaudible 15:57] when we had founded the company, that a lot of people didn't really have a clear problem when they came to us. Thus, the engagement wasn't there. So, people were kind of, like, just "surfing," quote, unquote. They were coming in and testing and trying it out. But they maybe were stressed and stuff, but they weren't really, like, having a real problem that they wanted to solve so that they would actually spend time with the product and, actually, like, learning skills, changing behavior, things like this. So, that was one big realization for us. The other thing we realized was that in our societies, unfortunately, prevention is not yet valued, meaning that there's no money in prevention. There's no...it's really hard to build a business when there's no, like, existing payment pathways or existing reimbursement from insurance companies. Many of these structures are missing in our environment or in our society, meaning that then we kind of realized that it's really hard to scale this kind of a business because it's really hard to make an impact because no one's willing to pay for prevention. Even though we had, like, great results already, and there's some good evidence already out there, but still, it's not the same as, like, the healthcare industry definitely exists and is working. And there's a problem, and you need to fix the problem. And whatever sickness or illness it is, there's kind of reasons and investments for fixing this problem. So, we pivoted this to be a healthcare company, not a wellness company. We actually applied...pretty much applied the same product idea. We just replaced the coach with a therapist. And then we basically still had the app-based experience for, like, learning, like, homework, things like this. And that's kind of how it, like, structurally changed. So, that was our pivot. We've actually only pivoted once, and I'd say, like, fairly minor pivot even because the same product, same idea is still there. It's more just, like, a little bit of a twist on, like, okay, we're not trying to, like, prevent things in a way. We're not trying to sell it as a preventative, but we started selling it as a healthcare intervention. And maybe one more thing I think it's going to be essential or maybe interesting for everyone listening. I actually had the idea of building the healthcare intervention from the beginning, but I was too afraid to, actually, like, pursue it. I was too afraid because I felt that, oh, like, if we're going to build a healthcare company, like, it's harder, you know, it's going to be, like, complicated. We have, like, this new approach, the mind and body approach. It's going to be, like, novel. It's, like, hard, you know. So, I had all these fears in my head, which kind of prevented me from, like, really jumping. My intuition was already telling me that this is the way to go, but I pushed it aside. And I was kind of like, hey, it's going to be easier to just, like, start with this preventative angle with, like, you know, you don't need clinical providers. You can have, like, coaches. It's going to be easier, you know? So, I was kind of, like, taking the easy path. I was kind of, like, too much listening to my fears, not my intuition. And, eventually, we ended up pivoting, and we ended up where I had actually imagined the whole thing being from the beginning. But I wanted to tell this because, at least for me, on my journey, it's been, like, many times that I realized that sometimes these things are, like, if you distill them to the essence, like, what's the essential question here, it's like, is it the choice of fear or choice of love? And is your choice in life in, you know, being a founder, in life in general, is it coming from a place of fear, or is it coming from a place of love? That's something which I think was kind of another key learning for me that I was so often making decisions that were based off of a fear. And I was kind of, you know, choosing things because I was afraid of something versus not being, like, excited about something or believing in something. MID-ROLL AD: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build, and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Liftoff brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow today. Get in touch at thoughtbot.com/liftoff. VICTORIA: Well, one thing I've heard from therapy is that the feeling of fear, the answer is more information. And maybe you could tell me a little bit more and our listeners, like, what makes creating healthcare apps scary? [laughs] What are some of those challenges that are different from what you might expect just building a wellness app that's not having health data involved? KRISTIAN: Yeah. Healthcare is, of course, like, regulated, and there's, like, you know, there are certain standards for care depending on whether it's mental health care, diabetes, or cardiology, or other areas. Like, there are certain things, like, you know, you need to have licensed providers who can practice medicine. Or if you have a medical device, you need to get FDA approvals. So, it's, like, a way, way heavier, you know, process. And it, like, has a lot more regulations and rules and different legal implications, data security implications, patient health information, you know, HIPAA, all these other things. So, it's just a much, much more regulated space in general, and what that means is that it's slower. It's going to be slower to build. It's going to be slower to validate. The feedback loop is going to be slower. It's going to be more resource-intensive. You're going to need to invest in more resources. It's going to need more, like, expertise. You're going to need, like, regulatory expertise, like medical, clinical, all these other things that you don't need when you're building a wellness company or a product. So, it's just a lot heavier and just, like, way more regulated. And the risks are also much more prominent in a way that you, as the CEO or the founder, or you as an operator, may end up being challenged even in court if something goes wrong. So, there's just more risks, and you got to think about, like, insurance. And, like, that's broadly speaking, like, some of the challenges of building a healthcare company versus building a wellness company. VICTORIA: So, as a founder of previous healthcare companies, you might have already built those networks to get access to people who can help you with those things. But if you were a new founder and you know you want to start a health tech company, how would you go about building your team to fill in some of those gaps around the areas you need help in? KRISTIAN: It's going to be a learning curve. There's, like, no single book or no single place where you can learn all these things. But I'd encourage, like, there's some great materials online for sure in, like, learning, like, what to consider when building a healthcare company. ChatGPT or Google will help you kind of get started on some of the essentials. But then I would, like, pretty quickly, I would try to, like, immerse myself in the different circles or communities where there are other healthcare founders, where there are people who've already been building healthcare businesses, where there are maybe advisors or maybe, like, accelerators for startup companies. You want to learn these things from people who've already been doing these things. You don't want to try to, like, learn everything from books. It's going to be too slow, and you don't know what you don't know. So, you don't know how to, like, ask the right questions. If you talk to people who've already been doing these things, they will be able to tell you, "Hey, you're not asking this and that question. Like, that's an important thing. Like, you should consider A, B, or C." So, I would say that, like, surround yourself with people who've been building healthcare businesses before and maybe try to get into an accelerator or just, like, find advisors, more, like, experienced people. VICTORIA: That's great. It's all about community, which brings me back to the question I had about Meru Health. You mentioned there's a community aspect built into the app, and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that feature and how it plays into the whole model. KRISTIAN: Community is important. So, a lot of the people who struggle with mental health problems also very often feel that they are very much alone, so that was the case with my brother. Like, he also felt very much alone with his depression that, like, no one will understand me. Like, I'm the only one who's feeling like this. I'm feeling isolated. But there are so many people who are struggling with the same kind of thing or same kinds of emotions and feelings and symptoms. And through our community feature, we have, like, people who are experiencing similar issues going through the Meru, you know, intervention. They can now, like, connect with each other, and they can, like, reflect with each other and see what's going on. It's a moderated kind of a forum type of a thing. So, licensed providers are always moderating and, you know, also being part of the discussions there. So, they're also contributing. But it's very much of a place for people to reflect and see that, like, these struggles that I'm going through are not just...it's not just me. Like, there's also other people. You don't need to feel so alone. And you can share with others and see that, hey, there's ways to heal. There's ways to get better. You know, you're not alone struggling with these things. VICTORIA: I think that's a really powerful point about making that connection, making that community, and feeling like you're not alone. What other features make the Meru Health app unique in solving this problem? KRISTIAN: We are basically a clinic, like, you know, we call it a virtual clinic. So, we have providers. There are, like, licensed therapists. We have doctors, psychiatrists. We have coaches. We have care coordinators. So, these are all real human beings that are actually practicing medicine and supporting our members or our patients. And then, we have an app-based program, and the app is basically your home for accessing the Meru services. So, whether you're doing video calls or whether, you know, you can do them through the app. Or you can be chatting with your providers, or you can get access to, like, you know, support from the care coordinators if you need to navigate your insurance benefits or things like this. And then, basically, in the app, you're going through different modalities of care. So, one of the unique things about Meru, like, why we built the company, why the company exists, is to kind of make this more holistic or more, like, a lifestyle medicine approach to mental health care, make it available for people. And it includes not only talk therapy or cognitive behavioral therapy, which is the normal typical way of, like, doing talk therapy. It also includes a lot of, like, mindfulness practices, a lot of...sleep kind of is a big topic where we help people understand that, like, there's no mental health without proper sleep. And it's also a physical health issue if you're not sleeping. So, sleep is essential. There are many things that you can learn, you know, like some sleep hygiene things, meaning that, like, you shouldn't do, like, blue lights just before bed. You shouldn't do, like, exercise just before bed. You shouldn't eat big meals before bed. So, there's many, many things that you kind of, like, once you learn to know, you'll improve, like, your sleep dramatically. And once you improve your sleep, you improve your health. Like, it's a direct correlation. So, these are things that we teach people as part of one of the modules there. Then there's, like, nutrition, as we call it, food and mood. So, there's a huge connection between, like, certain nutrients or diets with, like, mental health. I'll just give you a really quick example. Processed foods are really detrimental to brain health and, mental health, and also physical health. But, like, most doctors, if you're talking to most healthcare professionals, most, like, primary care doctors, if you go to see a primary care doctor about any mental health concerns you may have, like, 99% of them won't tell you anything about your diet. They won't tell you anything about processed foods being very detrimental. And, again, so we are kind of including things like these, which are all based on science. Like, there's a ton of research behind these things. And we've also, ourselves, done a lot of research with Stanford, with Harvard, with other universities. But that's kind of another example of, like, some of the essentials that go beyond just the standard talk therapy in helping people more holistically learn skills, learn knowledge to help them get better. VICTORIA: That's really cool. So, what does success look like six months from now or five years from now? It's a long process, so... KRISTIAN: We're now, like, 130 people at the moment at Meru Health. So, we've kind of, like, come quite far from the early days of, like, just building the product, getting the first customers, doing the first validation, publishing the first research studies, first clinical studies showing that this is effective, so forth. But there's still...it feels like it's day one still because we're going to feel that we're just getting started with, like, you know, we work mainly with insurance companies. So, there's a lot of insurance companies like Cigna, and Aetna, and United, Optum, some of these ones that we work with, some Blue Shield Blue Cross. But there's so much opportunity. So, we're now available for, like, 30,000,000 Americans. Obviously, there's way more many Americans we could be available for. So, we're constantly working in making our footprint bigger so that more and more insurance companies would reimburse for Meru's services so that people in different states and different areas can also, like, access these services if they want to. And, like, I mean, as I mentioned earlier, building a healthcare company is a marathon. It's not a sprint. So, we've now been building, like, six-plus years, you know, probably, like, another five, six years until we'll be, like, fully, like, reaching all the people in the U.S., hopefully, and so forth. And then, you know, we actually founded the company...initially, we founded from a place of, like, we want to build a global company. We want to democratize access to these kinds of, like, new healthcare services also, beyond just being in the U.S. The U.S. is just a really great place to start these kinds of companies, in many ways, the perfect place. But we also are, you know, we're looking at expanding into some European countries in the future and, hopefully, even beyond that. But that's something what's happening now and what we're thinking about for the future. VICTORIA: Great. So, it's getting to expand your footprint with who has access to it in the United States and then even looking beyond, globally, and seeing how wide you can reach. KRISTIAN: Yep. Exactly. VICTORIA: I love that. Okay. And then, what are the challenges that you see? What are those blockers or issues on the horizon that would prevent you from reaching your goals? KRISTIAN: I guess one challenge we're facing is that, as I mentioned, we work with insurance companies quite a lot, so some of these big names that I talked about and some more, like, regional smaller insurance companies. But one of the things is that since our care philosophy and the modalities of care we offer, like the sleep and nutrition, the biofeedback wearable, some of these other things that are not typical to mental health care, that are not conventional mental health care, getting reimbursements and getting this kind of a more comprehensive approach, getting it reimbursed by insurance companies is actually quite a challenge. Because insurance companies typically reimburse for very select standardized and kind of known services and, like, standard types of care. And it's harder for them to reimburse for something which is, like, novel and very different, even though we've published now 14 clinical studies, including, like, randomized control studies, which is the gold standard in clinical research, and then also, like, large, large, like, thousands of people, single-arm trials, which are, like, more like population trials. So, we have, like, a ton of evidence to show that this is very effective, actually, roughly 2 times more effective than standard of mental health care. So, it's very much more effective, and people are maintaining the gains. We've published also our, like, one-year and our two-year data. So, there's a ton of that evidence there, but it's still hard to bring in this kind of innovation into the market. That's one of the challenges that we're working on. Then, it's always a challenge to find the best talent, to hire great talent. I've learned over my career to always challenge myself in, like, making sure that we always think through, like, how can we hire the best talent for every role and not let your standards, like, drop. If you're growing fast, you got to hire more people. That is extremely, extremely important. And it happens so easily that when you start growing faster, you got to hire for multiple roles. You actually start, like, lowering your standards because you face pressures on, like, hiring people faster and growing faster. VICTORIA: And I wanted to ask you, too, about your background in computer science. And as you're thinking about scaling and expanding globally, what are you thinking about on the infrastructure platform side for the technology that you've built? KRISTIAN: What we've built so far is the patient-facing app, so that's the home for the patient to kind of access our services. For our providers, we have a network of providers that we also built them an electronic medical record. So, we kind of, you know, from the start realized that there's not an electronic medical record product out there that would fit our different way of providing care. So, we actually built that in-house by ourselves, so we have that now. And then, we also have a kind of a dashboard for our providers where there's, like, traffic lights. So, the system actually, like, sorts people based on different data inputs and places them in order of priority. Like, if someone's reporting suicidality as an example, that's going to be a red flag on a provider's dashboard. These different, like, categories, like, the red flags and then, like, more, like, amber and then green. So, that system is something we're constantly developing and fine-tuning on, like, improving the algorithms of detecting issues. And then, on the other hand, helping our providers to focus their time on the right patient at the right time because that's also really critical in care. So, there's plenty of work going on there. We're also working on our SOC 2, which is kind of this security standard in IT. So, we're working on our SOC 2 project currently internally. So, that's a pretty big one for us to mature into that. And yeah, so the platform is kind of evolving. We're kind of building more features. We're also building more of these different kinds of modules for people who are struggling with different kinds of issues. So, a concrete example, how can we better support people with post-traumatic stress disorder or people who have, like, panic attacks? And so, there's these kinds of more, like, nuanced areas of mental health where we can double down on by building different modularity and more individualized care pathways for people. VICTORIA: That's wonderful. I love that. Thank you for sharing all of it. Is there anything else that you would like to promote today? KRISTIAN: Yeah. Well, hey, thanks so much. I really appreciate you having me on this podcast today. What I, again, found useful as a founder, as an operator, is to take good care of yourself. Like, it's really important to also remember not to exhaust your resources constantly, but, like, try to kind of find ways to take care of yourself as a founder, as an entrepreneur, and also kind of, like, nurture yourself. Because, otherwise, I have lots of founder friends, lots of entrepreneur friends, and so many times people are, like, exhausting themselves. And they are kind of, like, running too fast or, like, trying to do this and that more and, you know, just do more and more all the time. You know, while that's important, it's important to be running. It's important to be kind of productive as a founder. It's also like a trap, you know. People also fall into a trap if they're trying to do too much at the same time. It's really important to focus on rather fewer things, and it's also very important to take care of yourself. So, self-care, self-compassion, I think, those are important themes that are not too often talked about when it comes to entrepreneurship, but I think that's something I've learned to be important. VICTORIA: It sounds like the value that you said as a company also applies for you as an individual, like, having compassion towards yourself and kindness. I think that's a really beautiful way to wrap the episode here unless...do you have any questions for me or thoughtbot? KRISTIAN: I've been following you a bit. And just curious, like, what's coming up for you? VICTORIA: For me personally, well, I bought a new house, so we're, like, renovating that in California. So, I'm actually switching to, like, maybe trying to do a little bit less travel compared to what I did last year, but going to more local things and getting, like, our San Diego CTO Lunches spun up again and meeting people here who are building really cool things. Lots of great health tech companies in San Diego also. What else do we have going on? I'm definitely going to be climbing. I'm going climbing on Saturday. And then probably in LA, I'll go up and do some climbing the next couple of weeks. So, I'm looking forward to having a little bit more balance to life this year [chuckles], the best-laid plans. But yeah, that's what's coming up and, just trying to, like, enjoy where I live, enjoy my family and friends and the companies that I work at, and do a good job. That's it. KRISTIAN: Great. Well, hey, appreciate it. VICTORIA: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for coming on, and being a part of the show, and sharing your story. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. And you can find me on X, formerly known as Twitter, @victori_ousg, or on Mastodon @thoughtbot.social/vguido. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at [email protected] with any questions.

Host Will Larry delves into the innovative world of Hera Fertility with its Founder and CEO, Thiv Paramsothy. Hera Fertility emerges as a telemedicine-first provider aimed at revolutionizing the fertility journey for couples. Thiv shares his journey from a tech enthusiast in Toronto to a healthcare entrepreneur driven by a desire to make healthcare more accessible and efficient. His ventures, including Hera Fertility, are born out of personal observations and frustrations with the existing healthcare system, particularly its inefficiencies and the barriers to accessing necessary care. Thiv noticed a significant gap in the fertility treatment landscape—long waiting times for appointments, excessive costs, and the overall inconvenience and emotional toll of traditional fertility treatments. Hera Fertility aims to address these issues by offering affordable, convenient, and less invasive alternatives to IVF, leveraging telemedicine to provide immediate access to care, diagnostics, and medication. The episode also highlights Hera Fertility's unique business model and focus on enhancing patient care through technology and personalized support. Thiv explains how the company can offer services at a fraction of the cost of traditional IVF while improving the quality of care and patient experience. By employing a telemedicine-first approach, Hera Fertility democratizes access to fertility care, especially in underserved areas, and introduces a more supportive and patient-centered approach to fertility treatment. Hera Fertility (https://herafertility.co/) Follow Hera Fertility on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/herafertility/), X (https://twitter.com/herafertility), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/herafertillity), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/herafertility?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D). Follow Thiv Paramsothy on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/thivparam/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript:  WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry, and with me today is Thiv Paramsothy, Founder and CEO of Hera Fertility. Hera Fertility is a telemedicine-first provider for couples who want to boost their chances of conceiving. They deliver convenient testing, affordable at-home meds, and concierge care, helping patients overcome infertility with better odds and faster turnaround time at only a tenth of the cost of IVF. Thiv, thank you for joining me. THIV: Thank you for having me. Super excited. WILL: Yeah, I'm excited to talk about this. And I know this is a huge issue, so I'm excited to hear kind of your heart behind it, why you started the company. But before we dive in that, tell me a little bit about you. THIV: So, I was born and raised in Toronto, always loved technology and looking at different softwares and all that, but never good enough to code. But went to Waterloo, which is a fancy tech school up in Canada. That's where I really developed my passion for healthcare and tech. So, at that point, it was called, like, something nerdy like health informatics, but now people call it digital health. From there, I kind of learned what was going on in the health system, what could be better about it, and that's kind of where I wanted to focus on in my career. And then, after college, I was realizing quickly that I wasn't a corporate guy, did it for a bit, and I realized I was very much an entrepreneur. So, I started doing startups after that, and I'm now in my third one. But all my startups really focus on how do we better the healthcare system and how do we make it better for patients? WILL: I absolutely love that because I have three young kids, and it's absolutely frustrating at times dealing with the healthcare system because, I'm just going, to be honest–sometimes it's who you know or what type of money you have and things like that. And it's frustrating that it feels like, at times, you have to be at this right spot at the right time to get the certain healthcare, so I really appreciate that you are diving into this and trying to solve a huge issue. THIV: Yeah, I hear you because I see that so often. That's a lot of times what inspires me to go off and do my startup. At that time, like, Hera, exactly that was one of the reasons why we started Hera. But the way I look at it is that if you look at the healthcare system we have, it's incredible the miracles we could do and the solutions that we have and how we can save people's lives, how we can treat them to live longer. But a lot of times just getting your foot into it and finding the right care is the difficult part. And don't get me started on the barriers and obstacles that are there, from cost to just pure access. So, that's what really motivates me because, in my mind, I'm like, oh, this should be available to the masses, and that way, you know, society grows. Everyone is happier. And I think then we move along and become better. WILL: Yeah, definitely. Were there friends, family that were going through this that kind of helped you, like, say, "I need to create this company to help the healthcare?" or what was the reason behind starting Hera? THIV: Yeah. So, with Hera, what happened was I was at that age where all my friends and family were moving to the next chapter of their life and wanting to build a family. A lot of them were coming to me and talking to me and telling me this. And I've become that person where a lot of times, if they need any advice on where to go, what clinic to attend, or what doctor, I try to help there because that's kind of where my mind goes to. I'll know where the right doctor is or which is the best one, even though I'm not a doctor. I've just worked with so many of them. And so, many of my friends would come to me and share those stories. And I started to hear it more and more. And then, as I was following along in their journey, I realized, like, how hard it is for them to even enter in and get seen by someone; a lot of times, it's like a 6, 12-month wait. Then, on top of that, being able to pay for a lot of these treatments, $20,000, $50,000; if surrogacy, it can go all the way to $100,000. And then, lastly, like, just how inconvenient it is. One of the things that I was shocked by was, like, how many people had to quit their jobs to go through treatment; 1 in 5 is the latest stat to go through something like IVF. So, all these things are against them, but what really stood out to me was the people that needed help for fertility were probably the most driven and resilient people. And, look, I'm an entrepreneur. I have to be resilient, but I think these people are even more resilient. And so, for me, I was like, there's got to be a better way for people that are going through infertility. That's really what drove me to start a company, quit my job, do the whole shebang there. WILL: I wanted to paint a picture because I'm kind of tearing up already thinking of some of the people who've gone through that journey because, like you said, it is not an easy journey. Can you paint the picture of kind of what that journey looks like? Because, from my experience, I know it's not like, oh, I need to go get IVF. It starts way before that, many doctors' appointments. It's a whole thing. I want the audience to kind of hear the whole story and paint that picture of what someone who needs IVF or anything in that category what they're going through. THIV: Where my mind goes to is think of a couple who, like, just got married or been in a long-term relationship, and now they've decided that they want to start having kids. What typically happens is, you know, usually, you just go, yeah, we're going to try, and then that's what they do for that time. And so, they're happy. They're excited because this is, like, a new chapter. And what I picture is as they're trying, they just keep trying. And they're, like, constantly every month or every so often when they're checking, using pregnancy tests, they're just seeing the negative result, negative result, negative result. And so, that just keeps happening over and over again. After that point is when they go, okay, maybe we need to seek some help. What ends up happening is they go to a doc, and a doc goes, "Hey, just keep trying." That's literally the advice you have to give. That's based on the guidelines. So, no test. Nothing. It's just the fact that it will happen on its own. Don't stress. And so, they keep doing that, and they keep seeing negative results. And that happens for a long time. Most people end up doing is they spend about three to four years on this journey. And where it really tests you, it tests your, you know, relationship with one another. It really questions yourself. You know, on the woman's side, like, they feel lonely. They feel like when they go to events, they see other people celebrating. They're getting pregnant. They're frustrated as to why. So, it puts emotional toll there. And then, also, for the man, it puts a lot of pressure and makes them question their masculinity. This ends up happening. From there, they start getting testing done. It just becomes very clinical. They start understanding, okay, they may need to now do some sort of treatment. It becomes like a job, another job for a lot of times. And that's what we kept seeing with people, and I saw for many people as I was helping them on their journey. It's really a stark contrast to what, I think, most of us have in our head of, like, when you want to build a family where it should be joyful, and loving, and exciting, and easy. It's not. It's a hard path for people where you have to be resilient. So, I hope that that paints a picture. That's what I feel, and that's what motivates me to keep trying to figure out a better way and why we started Hera. WILL: Yeah. The people I've talked to and been around that's kind of the same story. And you're spot on when you say they start questioning themselves. Like, "Is it me? Did I do something wrong?" And it's heartbreaking because you're like, "No, you did nothing wrong." And so, yes, I am so glad that you shared that and that you're doing something about it. So, can you kind of go into what is Hera doing to help the situation? THIV: What we are doing we're a telemedicine-first provider. So, what we do is, one, is that through our app, you're able to access the care you need right away. So, that means if you are being told, "Keep trying," but you want to know if there's something wrong, we have testing there. If you want to know, is there things that I could do or take that will improve my chances? We have our supplements and medications that we can provide to you and deliver to you and have you follow a treatment plan. If there are more things that we need to do, like go to a clinic and get IVF, through our app, you're able to do that. We're able to find you and coordinate all that. But really, we're a companion as you go along in this journey to sift through and provide the solutions that you need. The big thing that we've been really focused on, because we've learned this through our research, and my co-founder ran a fertility clinic for 20 years, is that most people think if you are having trouble, you have to go through something invasive like IVF, or you have to keep trying. But really, what's happening is that only 5% of infertility cases need something like IVF. And what you actually can do is that with a special set of medications taken in a certain way with our plan that spells it out for you, you can be successful. Improve your odds two to three times is what we've been seeing. So, that's really where we're honing in on: Can we improve your chances of getting pregnant? And that has all these different pieces to it. And so, I think that's what our members really like is that, one, they get educated on what's going on and what they can do and pick options. But then they know that if they're with us and they're following our instructions and taking the medications and everything, it will improve their chances. And so, then, hopefully, they can get pregnant. WILL: I love that because there's nothing more frustrating than knowing your body and knowing, hey, something's wrong, and someone's telling you, "Oh, just keep trying, like, just keep doing it." So, I love that you're stepping in and educating them because I feel like, especially in our healthcare, a lot of issues that I've seen is because people are not educated on, hey, that's not the right path to be going down, or there's another way to do it, and you just didn't know that. So, I'm glad that you're offering that next step. That sounds amazing. THIV: Thank you. I think you said it the best right there. It's that next step. People want to do something. The most frustrating that we kept seeing and hearing from people is just being told to do the same thing. Isn't that the definition of insanity? WILL: Yeah [laughs]. THIV: For us, we want to provide something so they could take that's safe, reliable, and has shown effectiveness. And along that, they could talk to someone and make sure and be reassured as they go along in this journey, as they have more and more questions, what else can they do, and just really feel empowered on this infertility journey. WILL: That's awesome. So, how long have you been around? How long have you been a company? THIV: We're getting up to two years. Our two-year anniversary is coming up. So, we started in April 2022 really testing out what could be the right solution here. You know, as someone who has done a few startups in my past, the first rule I would say is you never fall in love with the first idea, but you go off and test it, and find out, and interview, and keep iterating. And so, we did that for some time and learned so much. I think I've talked to now thousands of people on their fertility journey. And, you know, as we were going along, we realized we had something special with this telemedicine-first approach. And so, we launched officially in August, I believe it was 2023, our app with the clinicians and everything after beta testing it for some time. And now, we have a group of patients going through our program in about 12 states, and we are expanding as we go along. We'll hopefully get to the 50 states by the end of the year. WILL: Wow. By the end of the year, that's amazing. THIV: Yeah. Because we're getting a lot of people wanting it in all parts of the country, but we wanted to really focus on the areas where you won't have that access. So, to your point earlier, you know, a lot of people we've seen so far were telling us, "Hey, I don't have a fertility doctor near me. It takes me five hours to get to one, let's say. And so, I feel hopeless. I feel like I have to do that, and I shouldn't have to." And so, that's where it's this piece of, like, knowing where you're supposed to be going or getting access and not having these barriers in front of you. And so, for us, we're really focused on those states where access is a big issue for these services. And so, we're in Texas. We're in Kansas. We're launching in New Mexico now, places like that where you won't see too many fertility clinics in a lot of areas. WILL: That's very interesting, and I'm glad you brought it up because I was going to ask you about that because I know you kind of specialize in the telemedicine portion of it. And I'm from Louisiana, so kind of familiar with Texas, and I used to live in Kansas. And so, those places are not the most...there's parts that are rural, but not the most rural parts, so it's interesting that a fertility doctor can be five hours away. That just blows my mind that like, you know, you're not talking about Montana or anything. You're talking about, like, Texas and Kansas that, you know, five hours is a long time. And the amount of times you have to visit the doctor for that, yeah. THIV: For fertility, there's a lot of visits. You're going there pretty often. Especially if you're going to do IVF and having to do multiple rounds of it, you could be going there for months. And so, yeah, there's just...the reason behind this, and this is fascinating to me as well, is there are only, like, about 550 clinics that specialize, like, fertility clinics in the U.S. And most of them are actually concentrated in the metropolitan areas, and I think the stat is, like, 50% of those are in 6 states. So, the remaining states really get a few of them. I think New Mexico has, like, two or three fertility clinics. And so, these clinics have the specialists, and they do as much as they can. But if you're not nearby one, it's really hard to do that consultation, to learn from them, to find out if there is something wrong. And so, now you still are in this gap of like, is there something wrong with me? Because it could be a simple solution, right? And if you overcome it, you can get pregnant. So, that's where we see–can we be hyper-focused on those areas where someone is maybe two hours or more away from the nearest fertility clinic? And we really want to focus on that access piece because people should get access to this. So, that's why, with our telehealth solution, we have our own clinicians who will be able to assess. For the testing, we'll send you kits to be done at home, or you can go to a nearby lab, and we'll get the results that way. Give you a set of medications or treatments [inaudible 16:11] we'll actually send it to you. WILL: Oh, wow. THIV: That's how we're trying to be much more convenient and accessible because that way, you're doing a lot more at home, and these barriers that are currently in front of you are gone. And people are able to get care. WILL: That's amazing. Mid-Roll Ad: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what’s important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration, or click the link in the show notes for this episode. WILL: Let me ask you this because it kind of sounds like the concierge portion of it, which is amazing. How are you able to do that portion of it but do it cheaper than the streamlined way of doing it? THIV: So, I like to look at this in two ways; one is the business, right? How do we make sure the economics make sense? And then the other is how do we make it so that the patient experience and care is optimal and satisfactory, right? Or excellent, I should say. So, the way that we thought about it, and I went around and interviewed and observed so many different care models, like, the ways that these different clinics are working, so be it in a hospital, in a traditional clinic. In the earlier days, I would go and do all of that. You really have to think about is there a better way that we can do it but still have the same success and outcomes? And so, the first thing I noticed is that technology needs to be at the core of all of this. It checks off both of those buckets. The economics and the business will thrive because of that because you can introduce efficiencies, you know, streamline a lot of the operations, do automation. So, that was core to us. So, we were very careful and selected a good vendor to work with on the EMR side and then built on top of that. And then, from there, technology also helps from the patient side because of all the places, like, I was interviewing, none of the clinics really had, like, an app, or they kind of had something where you would email someone. You would still call, and it was very old school. But what we heard is that patients had so many questions after, before, middle of the night. And so, we were like, how do we make it so that they feel like they can reach out to us, talk to us at any point? And so, that's why we created the app. And you can message us at any point, and then there'll be someone there to help if you need anything or to answer any questions. So, that's on the technology. Then staff people wise the thought, and other companies have done this, but concierge care, you know, people have thoughts about it, but what's really good is that it's really about, how do I make sure that the patient is getting the best experience and getting the answers that they need? And really, it's about making sure you have the right team there who's available around the clock to answer those questions who are fully trained. So, we hired a lot of people that had gone and worked in the fertility space. Like, my co-founder knows so much about fertility because she's worked there from the beginning. And so, that's really helpful and is able to answer a lot of these questions that come up immediately. But then we staffed it so they're available around the clock so we can be available for the patient. And then from there, I think the business model makes sense because we're providing this extra support; patients are willing to pay for it. We've built it so that it's not transactional. And it's more about a long-term engagement so that way people pay us on a membership basis for certain services. And so, at the end of the day, we've, essentially, and I hope this makes sense, is that we try to not replicate what a typical clinic would do and, which is, like, bill for each service. And we try to think about it: how can we build a long-term relationship with this person who probably will be here for some time and then build pricing and a business model around that? I think that's why it's working. You know what I mean? WILL: Mmm-hmm. THIV: And I think that's so important because if we just replicated it, it wouldn't have worked. Things would fall apart. The economics wouldn't make sense. And then the last thing I'll say is that clinicians-wise, we didn't want to have doctors just there like everyone else thinks, but we actually have nurse practitioners or APPs. And we did this because there was more and more research, and we tested this out for long-term engagement; patients love the nurse practitioners. The doctors are great. They play a role. But I think the quarterback in all of this is that nurse practitioner. So, that's where, I think, I'm super excited. We're hiring a bunch right now. They are really the quarterback. And we have a good clinical team to make sure everyone feels equipped. And if they have questions, they're able to answer it with docs. But we take cues from these nurse practitioners. So, I think that really helped on the business side and the patient experience side. And that's why we, you know, we have five stars on our satisfaction. People love us. Yeah, it's a long-winded answer to that, but we really thought about how to build this properly. WILL: That's perfect because...and I'm thankful that you explained it because what I got from what you said was not only are we able to do it cheaper, but we're able to increase the amount and the quality of care that they're getting. Like, 2:00 in the morning, you have a question; you can get it answered. Like, you can't get that anywhere else. Like, sometimes you have a question, and it may take 12 to 24 hours to even get that answer. So, that's amazing that you're staffed around the clock. So, it sounds like, hey, not only are we going to do it cheaper, but we're going to be better at the quality that we give you. So, that sounds amazing. THIV: Yeah, exactly. And I think that way, what's key here is, currently, in the market for this kind of services, you're paying so much money. A lot of times, insurance doesn't even cover this. So, I've seen people who couldn't get their dream, which, in reality, people's dreams is to have that family, to have that child. And they couldn't do it because of money, you know, maybe it's the Canadian me, but I hate that fact of, like, money stopping you from getting the care you need. WILL: Same. I'm with you 100%, yeah. THIV: Right? WILL: Yeah. THIV: And so, for us, it's like, if we can make this cheaper, we can make the prices cheaper, too, and people can pay and afford it and get their dream. And so, that's really why we did it this way. It's not so that we make more money. It's so that, you know, we build a sustainable business. But now, patients have an affordable option in front of them. WILL: Yeah. Can you, and just ballpark it, like, what is the normal cost usually for this versus what Hera provides it for? Can you explain that? THIV: Normally, people who are going through this would have to spend, ballpark, 15,000 to maybe 25,000. The upper end is, I would say, 50,000, and I'm not including surrogacy in this. But it's a lot of money. People are getting their second mortgage. They're getting, you know, GoFundMes. There's so much that they're doing for this. The worst is when money is blocking you from that dream. So, that amount is typically what we've seen. And that's what my co-founder has told me she would be seeing that from each of her patients and when she was at that clinic. But the way that we've approached it and how much we charge, patients are typically paying us at most around $1,000 to $2,000. WILL: Wow. THIV: And so, we're able to effectively do it and at least be an alternative option for them, and that's affordable. And so, I'm always excited when I see patients who come to me, and they're like, "Oh, it was so expensive." or "I thought it was going to be so expensive, and this is so doable for us." That's the difference right there. WILL: Wow. That's a huge difference. Wow. THIV: [chuckles] Yeah. And I hope that this changes, like, the conversation. I've seen other markets or in the past where, you know, things were so expensive, and then these new startups were coming in and really making it so that it becomes competitive. And the incumbents have to change their prices, too, and get innovative. My goal is to bring down that, you know, current average cost of 10,000, 20,000 and so that it becomes much more affordable. And so, that could be done by improved technology, more competitors, all those things that we know about. That way, you know, as more and more people are having these issues with infertility...it used to be 1 in 8. Now it's like 1 in 5 or 1 in 6, even. We need more and more of this kind of care so that people can live out their dream, and let's make it affordable so that they can do that. WILL: That's amazing. And I really hope you reach that goal because I think especially in healthcare, we need more of that. We need the competitors that are driving the price down instead of driving it up. So, that's amazing that you're creating that. THIV: Thank you. That's why, you know, we have competitors, but I love it because a couple of years ago, there wasn't as many people in this space. And it keeps growing more and more. As more and more people put their attention to this, I think we'll see really good solutions so that people have options. Obviously, I'm biased. I would love for in 5 years or ten years, you know, if someone is having trouble, they're going to think of Hera. And they're going to download our app and talk to someone right away and know what they can do so they can be closer to that dream of theirs. WILL: Yeah, definitely. And I'm glad you mentioned the 5 to 10 years. So, I know you mentioned, hopefully, by the end of the year, you're going to be in all 50 states. What's the next step? What's the next goal for Hera? THIV: Yeah, it's a great, great question. I think about it all the time. I think for us, what we wanted to do is really, like, right now, we are early days, and we're learning from every patient we see. What else can we do? How can we help you? Fifty states is one target or milestone. I think there's a lot more we can do on the product side. For instance, we're going to be launching a male infertility program. That's probably the first of its kind out there where we specialize on the men side of things and bring them into the conversation and have them be actively involved. So, that's a big one. But we're going to keep doing more and more of solutions and products, so really strengthen the solution that we have here so that you come to us, and we have everything that you need. I would say next after that is really partnering with more and more of the clinics that are already there. And I say this because we're part of the health system. Yeah, business tells us to be competitive, and that makes sense. But you also are taking care of patients, and you need to partner where maybe you don't have the services for, but someone else does, or for continuity of care. And so, you need to be part of the system. And I think that's key for any kind of healthcare company that's starting up. And so, that's, I would say, level two. I like to think of, like, in games, like, the different levels. I would say after that, as we grow and become integral to the system and be that solution that people go to when they're in need; we'll evolve to, like, going into the employer and health plan side of things and then be able to say that it's part of your insurance and health plan. And then it's a no-brainer now to sign up with us because someone else is paying for it, which is great. So, that's kind of how we're evolving, but I want to make sure...and I think something that I've heard in your other episodes, but I'm a big believer of talking to the people that are using your solution and learning from them, and identifying where there may be gaps that you can help address. And so, as we evolve, we're going to keep talking to them. I always give out my cell phone number and tell any of our user who wants I'm like, "If there's something we could do better, let me know. Tell me directly." And so, I want to make sure that's clear that we'll see what our users tell us, what we should be focusing on. WILL: Wow. I love that. That's amazing. Let me ask you this in kind of closing it out is, like, so that's kind of five years. Do you have anything that you want to promote, like, what you're doing right now? THIV: Yeah. No, I think the big thing is we are constantly working on our product. What I would say is if there is anyone who is either fertility curious, or going through their own journey, or who has gone through this in the past, please reach out to me or, use our solution, talk to our clinician. I think it's so empowering once you meet with our clinician to understand what your options are and what you should do. If you're not in one of our states, then let us know, and we'll put it on the list and bump it up. So yeah, like, please come to our website, check it out, join us, try it out as well. We're all about trying to help people get to that goal of theirs, their dream. WILL: I love it. And we'll include it in the show notes, but in case they don't have the show notes in front of them, tell them how to get to your website, how to contact you, how to get the information. THIV: Yeah, for sure. So, you can go on our website. It's herafertility.co. And on there, you can sign up for our services and sign up for our app. But if you have any questions before signing up, you can schedule time to talk to one of our fertility advisors, and then, yeah, you can always reach out to me. I'm on LinkedIn under Thiv. And Twitter I check every so often or X. And you can email me at any point at [email protected]. WILL: Awesome. Well, it was great chatting with you, and I've learned so much. Keep doing what you're doing. And I hope that you're successful because you're doing some amazing things. THIV: I really appreciate that. WILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at [email protected] with any questions.

Host Victoria Guido interviews Dustin Butcher, CEO and Co-Founder of MADE TECH, a company revolutionizing the performance apparel industry through custom and made-to-measure automation technology. Dustin shares his journey from working in the outdoor industry and running a creative agency to founding MADE TECH. The company's mission is to provide performance apparel that perfectly fits the wearer's body, addressing a common issue where standard sizes fail to accommodate individual body shapes and sizes, particularly in sports where fit and movement are crucial. Dustin discusses the inspiration behind MADE TECH, which stemmed from personal experiences with ill-fitting outdoor apparel during activities like ski touring. He highlights the company's focus on inclusivity, allowing for 100% size inclusivity and addressing the needs of a broad spectrum of body shapes and sizes. This initiative caters to individuals who traditionally struggle to find performance gear that fits and opens the door for brands to offer more inclusive product lines. Dustin's background in the outdoor industry and encounters with the limitations of standard sizing in apparel led to the development of a technology-driven solution that customizes clothing to the individual's measurements, enhancing performance and comfort. The conversation also touches on the industry's broader implications of custom and made-to-measure apparel, including sustainability and waste reduction. Dustin elaborates on MADE TECH's business model, which initially targeted direct-to-consumer sales but has pivoted towards partnering with established brands to offer custom-fit options. This strategic shift aims to leverage brand trust and reach a wider audience, promoting inclusivity and personalization in the performance apparel market. MADE TECH (https://www.made-custom.com/) Follow MADE TECH on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/made-tech/). Follow Dustin Butcher on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dustin-butcher/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript:  VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Dustin Butcher, CEO and Co-Founder of MADE TECH, powering the future of performance apparel with custom and made-to-measure automation. Dustin, thank you for joining me. DUSTIN: Oh, thank you so much for having me, and I'm excited to be here. VICTORIA: Wonderful. Yeah. So, why don't you just introduce yourself a little bit more and tell me about your background? DUSTIN: Yeah, of course. So, as you mentioned, I'm one of the co-founders of MADE. We have built technology that enables the automation of custom and made-to-measure performance apparel. So, similar to how you could, like, you know, go online and design a custom suit or something like that and get it made to fit your body, we do that for performance apparel so that the product that really matters if it fits you properly and that sort of thing, and, you know, so that might be outdoor apparel, motocross, yoga. Whatever sport it is that you're into that, you need your apparel to move with you; that's what we fuel. And so, we're working with a bunch of different brands in that space to do that. My background, I came from the outdoor industry; always been in the outdoor industry since I was able to hold a job, originally just at ski resorts and stuff as a lifty and as a waiter, and all those types of classic, you know, teenage jobs. And then I worked in-house at a bunch of outdoor companies, Voilé, a little backcountry ski company here in Salt Lake, and then Black Diamond, and Gregory Packs, and Petzl, and kind of worked around the industry a bit. And then for the last 12 years, I ran a creative agency, specifically in the outdoor industry, working with a lot of those same brands and other brands in kind of communicating their value to the outdoor customer. And so, and then we kind of rolled into MADE, had this idea, connected with my co-founders, and really built it from there. VICTORIA: I love hearing about people building careers in the outdoor industry, something really close to me personally. I also got my first few jobs from rock climbing and having competed as a young adult and then walking up to businesses and saying, "Hey, you have a climbing wall. Like, you should hire me, and I'll run your climbing wall." And they're like, "Okay." [laughs] So, it just, like, brings you so much confidence and such a great community to be a part of. And so, you're talking about creating clothes that move with you. Can you tell me a time when you were doing something, some kind of performance sport activity, and you were like, "Wow, whatever I'm wearing does not fit me. This is really affecting my performance and my ability to do this sport"? DUSTIN: Yeah, I probably have too many of these stories. And what's interesting about that is I'm a pretty traditionally medium guy. I'm 5'11. I'm 170 pounds. Like, I should generally fit into mediums, but I'm just in that weird spot where I always kind of feel like, am I a medium or a large in this? My torso is a bit long. So, my primary sport is ski touring, like, backcountry skiing. That's what I love to do. That's where I spend my time and my focus and a lot of that kind of stuff. So, I've had lots of experiences where I might be climbing up a [inaudible 03:08], and my jacket comes up a bit on my lower back and exposes my lower back, and it's cold. And so, then I got into defaulting where I wear, like, one-piece base layers, so I can never expose my skin directly. But it's like, the ultimate solution really was to have properly fitting stuff. The original concept for MADE came from I was out on a ski tour with some friends, and I was wearing a pair of pants, some soft shell pants that I loved the fit of. But the feature set wasn't there, and they were, like, Alpine climbing pants. They're not even designed for ski touring. They didn't fit over my ski boot. They looked a little bit silly, but I loved the fit, like, in the leg. And they didn't have like, you know, a beacon pocket and those types of things that I would want. But I do have this other pair of ski touring soft shell pants that I wear most of the time that fit terribly but have all the features that I want. And it was like, ah, man, I wish I could, like, determine exactly what I need as a skier and then, you know, would have the confidence that it was going to fit me perfectly, that sort of thing. And that's really where it kind of started. It was a very selfish, like, how can I get the thing that I want? You know, I connected with my co-founders, both of whom came from Arc'teryx to start this with me. And we really got to thinking, and it's like, wow, with this type of system, we can make a really big impact as far as like, we can be 100% size-inclusive. There's not body shapes or sizes we can't meet with this type of system. And so, then it really opened a lot of doors as far as, like, what we can do and how we can connect this. And that's when we all kind of came together on this idea and said, like, "This matters, and we're the ones to build it." VICTORIA: I love that you're trying to fit something that works for you, and you realize having that ability could make it inclusive for everyone. And I wonder if you could share more about what you know about sizing in the clothing industry and, how that's developed over time, and how it may be really limiting who has access to the products that you're selling and the activity that those products allow you to do. DUSTIN: It might sound like a crappy, little history lesson, but, you know, the further back we go...before the industrial revolution, clothing was made to fit the individual, you know, you'd go to a tailor, and you'd tell them what you need the product to do for you, and they'd measure you and make the product. And then we got into this mass manufactured thing, which is great as far as, like, efficiencies and economies of scale, and all that kind of stuff. And so, we can get stuff cheaper and still, like, high-level product, but we got into this standardized system. And then companies deal with this challenge of like, okay, what is our small? What is our medium? What is our large? And finding those things and trying to meet the needs of the bell curve but also knowing that for every individual person, they're not meeting that person's fit needs, right? They're trying to fit as many people within the primary sizes as they can, and that's part of the challenge. One of the things that we've run into in performance product, especially, is that, like, there are massive swaths of people that simply cannot get good performance product in their size. 68% of North American women are over a size 14, and it's really hard to find good ski outerwear, as an example, for a plus-size individual like that. And that's not even that plus size. That's an average, like, that's 68%. Like, we're not talking about like, oh, these are the ends of the bell curve. These are people who want to get out and do things, and they've been unable to do it because of clothing. What a silly reason to not be able to do the sport that you're excited about, or even to go spend time with your friends and family, or whatever it might be, like, your motivation, but, like, what a bummer of a reason to not be able to do it. So, those are the things we're trying to solve through our system is saying, like, "Hey, we can work with these existing brands, and they can now offer stuff that is fully inclusive, meets all of their quality expectations, all of this, and still comes in with a very reasonably priced product." You know, it's not what you think custom would be where it's like, oh, it's going to be five times the cost of the ready-to-wear product. No, we can come in at the same price or very similar with these brands and allow them to make options that meet the needs of all different shapes and sizes. VICTORIA: Well, I can really relate to that because some of the clothes that I would wear for climbing or even yoga are coming in at a very high price point already. And I recently tried on a set of clothing from a retailer who's normally, like, known for yoga and outdoors equipment. And I was just surprised at how it seemed that they wanted the person who fit these clothes to be very narrow all the way through [laughs]. And I was like, wow, I'm struggling to fit in these clothes. And, like you said, like, I feel like I'm pretty average, and that was frustrating, and especially, like, getting clothes like that it can really deter people from participating in the sport and participating in outdoor activities altogether. So, I think it's really cool that you are going down that journey. Let me ask you, how did you get the original idea for MADE TECH, specifically? DUSTIN: So, first, we had to determine, is it possible? Can you make a system that would automate the creation of a custom pattern, all of that kind of stuff in really technical product, right? We know it can be done in suits and jeans and that sort of category that's more of a simple cut-and-sew. Whereas when you get into technical product where you're dealing with waterproof fabrics and seam sealing, you know, in a ski jacket, there's, like, 200 pieces of that product versus two pieces that get, like, pushed together and sewn between, right? Like, it's really, really complicated stuff. So, we started with that kind of hypothesis is, yes, we can figure this out, and we did that under a D2C brand, MADE Outdoor. It's madeoutdoor.com. It's now been live for almost two winters, and we've made a bunch of product and a bunch of people happy. And, you know, we had some really early success with really tall, thin dudes, you know, like, that 6'6, you know, I'm sub 200 pounds or something. I'm really thin. And that person has been kind of forced into wearing a triple XL jacket for so long. So, they're pretty psyched. And so, like, we've had some of those early wins, and that was really kind of like, okay, we tested it. We've proven this system works. And so, it's really just been in the last six months that we've said, like, okay, now where do we make the biggest impact? How do we make that change in the industry and in these opportunities to participate in these sports? And that's not through our own brand. That is one piece of it. Sure. But the larger opportunity is for us to work with existing brands that have that consumer trust already that, you know, like, "Oh yeah, I've worn this brand for however many years, and I have that trust, and I love the brand. And now I can get something that fits me perfectly." Or it's that person that's like, "Oh, I've always worn this brand because it fits me, but I really would love to wear this other brand, but I know it doesn't fit me properly." And so, it opens doors for people to kind of like say like, "Okay, what's the brand? What are the materials? What's the brand ethos that really connects with me? And be able to go there and not have fit be the reason that I can go with one or the other." VICTORIA: That's really interesting. So, you started with originally direct-to-consumer custom ski and snowboard wear and, found your initial success, and then identified a pivot point where you could expand and do direct business-to-business and make other brands more inclusive as well. DUSTIN: Yeah, that's the big idea, right? And it doesn't need to be my name or our brand name on the thing. Like, what we've built, like, there's just an opportunity for an impact here that's bigger than just us. VICTORIA: I love that. And it makes me want to ask you, what other core values drive your everyday decisions as you go about your process here? DUSTIN: Yeah, the three kind of pillars we think about anytime we are working on something, and really that kind of drive our whole system at MADE, is inclusivity, sustainability, and personalization. I should come up with a better way to say that, but it's those three, right? So, on the personal side, we want you to have the thing that you need. Your setup for some climbing clothing is going to be different than mine. You're going to want to set things up differently. And maybe you are a boulderer, and I am a big wall climber. Yeah, we have different needs for what we have. And so, we want you to be able to kind of define that rather than just being a designer in some boardroom somewhere. So, that's the personalization side. The second is the sustainability side. 30%, and this sounds outrageous, but 30% of apparel is never sold to an end consumer. And it eventually gets destroyed or sent to the landfill, which obviously has a massive sustainability impact, not only for that product to how do you dispose of that kind of thing, but also just, like, we made it, and it took time, and it took money, and it took human hours and all that kind of stuff. So, that's a huge opportunity for us because everything that is made through the MADE system it already has a home. Like, we never make a thing...if any of our brands are using our system, they only make things that already have a home. So, that's a huge win. We immediately take off that 30% of overproduction, right? And then the inclusivity stuff we've talked about already, but it's like, we just want people to be able to do the things that makes them happy. And it's a bummer when you can't do those things, whether it's climbing, or yoga, or whatever. Like, you know, there are some big brands that have had a hard time with size inclusivity, which is totally understandable. It's really hard to make product that fits everybody. And so, you know, we create these standardized systems, and then we knowingly leave people off. But we know that because it's like, well, not that many people in this size have bought from us, and we have to hit our MOQs, and we have to do X and Y and that sort of thing. But with this type of system, they can hit everybody, and they're not taking those, like, big risks as far as like, oh yeah, we have to set place this big order, and then all this product is going to sit in a warehouse for three years before it'll finally sell through. VICTORIA: It reminds me of a classic story you hear in software design about how they tried to make the first Air Force pilot chair; I don't know if you've heard this one, where they, like, took all the measurements of all the pilots and then they, like, averaged out all the, like, heights and widths and everything. So, they made this chair that fit no one. DUSTIN: Yeah [laughs]. VICTORIA: Because no one is perfectly average. Like, you know, everyone has variations in their size and their measurements. And so, I think that's really cool. It's interesting. I hadn't thought about the conservation impact or the impact on the environment; it takes just to have to have so much error in your sizing, which is naturally part of what's going to happen when you try to make an average size. DUSTIN: I've not been on the product design side of apparel. I don't envy them. Like, their job is hard to find that fit story that, okay, this is what the average consumer looks like. But what does our consumer look like, and then how do we find something that meets them? And what is our medium? And then, do we have to make a different medium for different markets in the world? And there's so much, like, level of detail in there. That's one of the beauties of us working with other brands now is that, like, their level of knowledge in that stuff is huge. And so, pulling from that and being able to say like, "For your product, how should this jacket fit somebody? How do you want it to move?" So, then, when our system pulls in the 3D measurements of that individual, it can say like, "Okay, this jacket needs to sit this far off of the shoulder. It needs to have this much room around the bicep." Like, those types of things are all part of how it works and gives those opportunities for, like, an individualized fit that is determined by how the brand wants it to perform. MID-ROLL AD: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at tbot.io/devops. VICTORIA: How did you go about, like, what was your first step when you said, "Oh, I need a system to do this type of automation and to be able to do this kind of customization"? How did you approach solving that problem? DUSTIN: Well, we started to figure it out, and we realized that the system didn't exist [laughs]. So, that's really what it was. It was out of necessity more than anything. So, we wanted to build our custom and made-to-measure brand, and none of the systems existed to do it. So, we got to work on building those systems. You know, that was, over the last year, it's like, okay, we built all these systems. Do we just use them for ourselves, or can we have that bigger impact if we work with other brands? VICTORIA: So, did you have the skills to build the technology already in-house, or did you have to develop that within your company? DUSTIN: Oh, man. So, my co-founders are amazing. I started this with two co-founders, Cheryl LeBarr and Capri Philip, both came from Arc'teryx to start this with me. Arc'teryx, if people don't know, is one of the big outerwear brands in the outdoor space, a beautiful, beautiful product. They understand fit and, form and function, and they make an amazing product. And I have connections over there, and so I made a few phone calls and really, like, found the right people. So, we got to work on it. None of us are coders. We kind of scrambled through our MVP. We figured out how we could do it with...if you look at our MVP backend, it's messy, like every startup's MVP is. And it's like, okay, this system is connecting to this system over here, and it's talking to this. And it's sending this data from here and that sort of thing. And it's like, but we figured it out, and that was the key. You know, so the automation of this stuff really came from the pattern design side, which was Capri's specialty. And then the automation of the, like, tech pack and all of the factory details that they need to produce the garment came from Cheryl's side, from the product development side. And mine was more on the brand and kind of communication of the value and that sort of thing. We were scrappy. And we figured out how to build something that worked. And then the next step was to bring on a proper CTO and then really build the, like, scalable system that's like, okay, now it can plug into existing systems. And, oh, you have these expectations of your enterprise-level software. Yes, this is how it works, that sort of thing. So, it's been tiered in that way. And that, honestly, is part of the fun. Like, part of the fun is finding these new problems to solve and then coming up with creative ways to solve them. VICTORIA: That's really cool. So, you all were able to build your MVP together within your existing co-founding team. I'm curious about, like, what platforms you chose to do that in. Did you pick, like, a programming language or some sort of, like, ClickOps or some kind of, like, other tool that you could use, like low-code tool, to develop it at first? DUSTIN: I mean, it's very low code. It's Google Docs, Google Sheets that speak to each other and, like, can share data between them kind of thing within our secret backend, obviously. We have a really great relationship with our measurement partner. We didn't build the measurement technology. That's a whole different business model and that sort of thing. So, we work with this great group called 3DLOOK that does our measurements, and it just uses a customer's phone to take a front and a side photo, and then we get a full 3D model that goes into our thing. It's super cool. We tried to pull some things off the shelf that existed that we could use without having to build it ourselves. With my agency business, like, I have a developer that I work with a lot. And so, like, we called on them to help us build a few pieces, but for the most part, it really was just, like, getting scrappy and creative together. And, like, we built the MADE Outdoor platform on Shopify. It's like all these systems that are just kind of like, yeah, we know how these systems work. Let's use those to start, and then if it works, then we build it into a bigger framework. VICTORIA: I'm glad you mentioned that there's take a picture because I was going to say, whenever I even have to do, like, a sizing guide chart on a website to buy clothes and you have to, like, measure your waist, I'm like, I don't want to do that [laughs]. I'm just, like, too lazy. I don't want to check that right now. So, taking a picture would be so much easier. DUSTIN: People are so bad at that [laughs]. Like, when we first got started, and we were asking people to send in their measurements, and here's a video on how to do it, even the same person, like, with three different people measuring them, you'd get wildly different information. And so, we definitely knew early on, okay, we need to eliminate the human error aspect and get this as digital as possible. So, that's where we found the right partner. And it really is, it's, like, a two-minute thing. You stand in front of your phone. It takes photos. The photos aren't even saved anywhere, like; they're AI, like, looks at the photos and then gives us the model. We're not sitting on a bunch of pictures of people in their base layers and underwear or anything like that. It's like, all of this is just kind of like, we have your 3D model, and now we can build the product, and we can even do digital test fits on that person, your actual body, before it even gets made, and stuff. So, we have systems for redundancy and everything that we can test everything. And that's just the beauty of, like, the modern technology that exists. Like, we didn't build that either, but we are using the heck out of it to make sure that we can make the best product for people. VICTORIA: That's really cool. I love that. So, you've maybe answered this question already a little bit, but was there anything else in your product discovery process, and especially as you shifted into marketing directly to businesses, anything that was in your discovery process that surprised you and had you pivot in your strategy? DUSTIN: You know, you start with your own experience, right? So, we are sitting in our meetings, and it's like, oh man, here's all the products we want to make. And we're like, we've got this list of 40 things that we want. Oh, I need soft-shell pants. And we started in hard shell for our own brand. So, then it's like, "I live in the Wasatch. I don't wear hard shell, like, while I'm ski touring, at least. Like, I need soft shell." And then it's like, okay, well, let's start working on soft shell stuff. Then it's like, okay, we also need mid-layers, and we need base layers. And then we need mountain bike, and we need trail run, and we need climbing, and we need hiking. And it's like, oh man, you know what would be easier? If we just worked with, like, one of the or all of the big brands in this space. And there's some really great examples of, like, smaller companies that have created really compelling systems to work with these brands, like the same group that does the secondary market stuff, so the Worn Wear program for Patagonia and the ReGear thing for Arc'teryx. And they built that same structure for, like, two dozen different brands. And it's like, man, that is the model for us. That's where we can really connect is they've created so much value in the secondary market, and we've created a bunch of value in this custom and made-to-measure market. That's what we want to do. And we want motocross...like, the MADE brand isn't going to make motocross stuff. The MADE brand isn't going to make fly fishing necessarily. But we want these markets and these people to be able to have that solution. And we also, like, we're early in the space. Like, we want them to use us rather than, like, take the time and money and everything to build it themselves. Like, come to us, like, that's our whole idea. We want to have that bigger, larger impact. So, I guess it's us just trying to say like, "What do we want?" And we're users. We know the market. How do we get there the fastest? And how do we have that impact quicker than just necessarily, like, okay, well, in 25 years, we'll have all those products that we want? VICTORIA: Yeah, yeah, I could see that, how it went from, well, yeah, I would want this for every product, and then you're like, well, I can't build every product [laughs]. So, I like that pivot in your strategy. And what challenges do you see in being able to make that impact as quickly as you want? DUSTIN: One of our biggest challenges right now, I think, is that this is a totally new idea in this space. Nobody's done this in this space. Like, in suiting, custom suits have been a thing for a long time, and it used to just be for rich people. And now because of, like, modern technology and stuff, it's become more approachable. Awesome. That's great. And so, like, in that kind of category, people are more used to the idea of, like, yeah, I place an order, and it takes time, and they make a thing, and then it comes to me. Whereas with outdoor apparel and sports apparel and that sort of stuff, you go to your local shop. You try on six different things, and you walk out with the one that meets your needs the best. That's what people are used to. So, it's a little bit of a shift in the thought process. You know, we've had our early adopters, and now we're kind of moving into more people who are like, "Okay, I get it now." And so, we're seeing more of that where it's like, yes, if I give some time, then I really see the value of having something that fits me perfectly. And in the MADE Outdoor brand, it's not an inexpensive product. We make a really premium hard shell product. Now, it's comparable in price to the other brands that make comparably featured and whatever product, but still, you're spending money, and you want something that's going to last for a while. And so, to have that perfect fit, to have that perfect feature set, to know that when I ski, I totally need a left chest pocket, and I don't need a right chest pocket, whatever it might be, like, your details, that matters, right? So, that's probably our biggest challenge right now. That's not an unsolvable problem. We can manage that. We can get the communication out. And especially as we're onboarding these existing brands, that gives us the opportunity to have a much larger mouthpiece and be able to kind of say like, "Hey, this exists, and you should care." Yes, it's going to be amazing for individuals who have traditionally been off-size. But it's also amazing for you people who think you've always been just, "Yeah, I'm a medium, and everything fits me just fine." You'd be surprised. Like, having something that fits you perfectly is a different world, and the ability to then move in that sport and, like, be able to do your thing, it's like, oh yeah, I guess that, like, extra fabric in my shoulders was kind of, like, limiting my movement while ice climbing or, you know, oh yeah, my sleeves were always coming up while I was climbing, or whatever it might be. Like, there's things that I think people will really kind of be psyched about when they start to experience that custom aspect of it. VICTORIA: Yeah. I can speak to some of that, too, as, like, a climber. And you mentioned it even when you talked earlier about, well, if you're bouldering at the gym, that's a totally different experience than if you're out all day on a multi-pitch, and you're on the wall, and you're, you know, you're vertical for, like, six hours of the day [laughs]. And I think it's really interesting to be able to provide that customization. And how are you defining success for the company? So, you just made this pivot about six months ago. Did you immediately create some goals that you wanted to achieve in three months, six months, or five years? DUSTIN: Yeah, I mean, we have our, like, target, our sales targets and stuff that we are looking at as far as we want these many brands on board this year. And we want to bring on like, you know, as I step back a little bit, as, like, the bigger thoughts behind the company, that's more of, like, where we're trying to target multiple different categories at the same time. So, like, if we can get one big outdoor brand, great, that's what we want to do. Now, we want all the outdoor brands. We totally want them all. But if we can just get one, then we're going to have a start of an impact in the outdoor sector. Then we want the motocross brand, and we want to be able to make the impact in that sector. And we want the fly fishing brand, and we want the yoga brand, and we want the traditional, like, team sports brands and those types of things. Like, we want to kind of, like, spread and have an impact across categories and as kind of a first attack. And then to really kind of go from there and say like, "Okay, now let's build out, like, oh, fly fishing really is connecting with this, or the yoga community is loving the, like, idea of a really custom fit product." So, like, those types of things are where we can kind of go from there. But as we begin, it's really like, can we make an impact across these different categories? And those are a lot of our goals as we start out. It's like, how can we connect with surf? How can we connect with hike? How can we, you know, like, and it's just looking at each of these little categories because we know there's people being stuck that can't get out in each of those things, and we know we can help. But we're not going to design the product personally. So, how can we make that impact with the right partners? VICTORIA: Oh, that's great. And I'm even thinking about surfing and getting a wetsuit. And there's just so few women wetsuits, period, in the store. And it's very limited in range and can be really challenging. And I took a friend surfing last year and did not enjoy that process. She did not like it [laughter]. She liked the surfing part, but the getting the wetsuit on and trying them on was not great [laughs]. DUSTIN: I can only imagine, yeah. And there's some really cool, like, in surf, there are some great small brands, like, new brands that are doing custom fit. I don't know their systems. I don't know if it's an automated process or if it's a manual process, but the reality is it's not readily available enough to the general public. And that's where it's like, oh man, our system makes it readily available. And so, then it's like a simple kind of like, okay, I go online. I fill in this information. I decide, do I want a hood on my wetsuit? Do I not want a hood? Do I want this kind of entry? Do I want...Like, you decide the details that you want, and then the product is made for you. That's the beauty of it, right? VICTORIA: Yeah. And I'm curious to kind of get back to marketing to existing businesses because you not only have to sell them on this is the art of the possible. Here's, like, what you could do to get the same performance with these custom measurements of your existing high-performing apparel. But you also have to encounter this change management process where they have a way of doing things. You'd be a new product. They'd have to figure out how to change up all their operations. So, I'm curious: what's your strategy for getting involved in that and working through it? DUSTIN: Oh man, some of these companies are giant ships with tiny rudders, right? So, to get them to shift any direction or the other is tricky. A lot of our current sales pipeline is more medium-sized brands that have a little bit more of a nimble; yeah, we can jump on this. But one advantage we have is that some of these categories do have some custom programs, like I mentioned, the custom wetsuit stuff, like, that is in the market. So, like, wetsuit companies are aware that this needs to exist. Fly fishing waders: there are some custom fly fishing waders, now, not necessarily made-to-measure, but you don't make them in a 4XL or something. You could order a 4XL from a certain company. So, like, there are systems like that. So, they've actually already kind of figured out the manufacturing side, which is one of the challenges of it that we can help the brands figure out those details because we've done it, and we know how to, like, take advantage of the efficiencies that they have in place with their current supply chain, or they can use our supply chain that we've built out. So, it depends. But that is one of the challenges is to get them to just kind of commit to say like, "Yes, this is worth putting in the time." So, we do have...actually, the secondary market company I mentioned earlier, the way that they do it is it's, like, a separate site. And so, it's not run through their existing site. And so, they get around some of the ways of not necessarily having to be tied directly into a lot of their internal systems, and it's run as, like, a secondary system. Like, there are guitar manufacturers that make custom that they don't even produce them. They basically license out their shapes and stuff to custom builders. So, we're trying to take a lot of the learnings from these other categories that do something kind of similar to what we're doing and learn from them and say like, "Okay, that's one approach we could take, or that's an approach we could take." And then, really, we're going to the sales conversations with those brands and saying, "What do you need? Because we can be flexible." We're the opposite of the giant ship with a tiny rudder. We're that tiny, little motorboat that can, you know, like, spin circles and stuff. Like, we can do whatever is really needed at this point for these brands to be able to tie into them. So, we are flexible, and we try to learn as much from them as possible to be able to build the right solution. VICTORIA: Yeah, I think that is the draw of you get your foot in the door with the middle businesses, and you can prove out that it works, and then maybe eventually the bigger brands start to take notice and pick it up as well. But it is going to take time. That's really cool. I think it provides that, you know, for those mid-size businesses, it gives them an advantage that a larger enterprise wouldn't be able to offer. DUSTIN: Yeah, no, I think, at first, especially, like, the idea to be kind of first to market-ish with something totally new and exciting and to create that brand value with their customer in a way that they haven't been able to before. VICTORIA: Right. And you mentioned fly fishing a few times, and I feel like it's one of those sports that I've done it when I was, like, really small, like, maybe with my grandfather, like, fishing in the river. And as I get older, I'm like, it does sound nice. DUSTIN: Right? [laughs] VICTORIA: Like, sitting alone in, like, a beautiful place. Like, maybe you get a fish, maybe you don't. I think I like the idea of it more than the reality of it, but will try it out some...I have enough other sports [inaudible 33:02]. DUSTIN: I think you'd be psyched if you gave it a shot. Like, fly fishing is something that, like, if you like being outside, it's something else. There's a beauty to it, for sure. And there's a beauty to all of these sports. And, honestly, if people are being active, whatever it is that you're doing, good for you. And that's part of it is, like, we are trying to be as sport agnostic as we can in all of this because, yeah, we don't care if you are a diehard snowmobiler, right? Amazing. Great. Let's get you some product that fits so you can get out and do your diehard thing. Or, you know, maybe you're a mountain biker or a road cyclist, or, like, you know, there's so many things that we wear clothing that we hope allows us to perform in that sport, and yet so much of it is holding us back, even maybe to a degree that we don't even know. Professional athletes and stuff, much of their product is made-to-measure. Olympic speed skaters, like, it's not like they had to just choose a medium or a large type of product. Like, it's made to fit their body so that they can perform at their pinnacle level. That's awesome. Where that stops is in the, like, general consumer, and, like, I want to get out and do my sport. It's not about being the best at this thing. It's just about being my best at this thing and having the most fun that I want to have in it. The fit and the details of your product matter just as much as it does for the Olympian as far as I'm concerned. VICTORIA: Absolutely. And it reminds me of a story that happened to me. I was climbing in this very popular pant that is known as their climbing pant from this particular brand. And it was maybe the fifth time I'd worn these pants and just ripped the inseam while climbing. DUSTIN: [laughs] VICTORIA: You know, lucky it wasn't that cold that day or anything, but it's just [inaudible 34:50] DUSTIN: Your belayer got a kick out of it, I'm sure. VICTORIA: Yeah, there was a layer to this, right? Yeah. DUSTIN: [laughs] VICTORIA: And I've heard that happens to lots of climbers who wear those same pants. Like, they're known for that because it's really hard to get that measurement right, especially with that kind of material, which was great. It's like this material that was supposed to not rip, right? [laughter] [inaudible 35:09] what is this? Yeah. Maybe I do want to go outside, and I want to go fly fishing, or I want to go skiing or snowboarding, but, oh, they don't even have pants in my size. Like, I'm not even going to try. And that's really demoralizing. So, I think it's great to be working on that problem. Oh, wonderful. Thank you so much for joining. Is there anything else that you would like to promote today? DUSTIN: No, I mean, I think I love having these conversations, and chatting with you has been so great. It's fun to talk about what we're working on and to, you know, get the word out a bit more. There's not really other things to promote other than, like, you know, if you're a smaller or medium-sized or a large apparel brand hearing this, like, please reach out to me. I want to talk to you. We've built a system that really can help both the brand and the customer. It helps the brand with revenue and with margins and reduced waste and all of these things, but it also just helps the customer have a better product and a better experience. And ultimately, that's, in theory, what we are trying to do when we make product. So yeah, that's my focus, and that's what I want to talk to everybody I can about right now. VICTORIA: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing your story and for coming on the show today. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at [email protected] with any questions.

In this episode of the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido discuss the intricacies of product design with thoughtbot's Senior Designers, Rami Taibah and Ferdia Kenny. They delve into the newly launched Product Design Sprint Kit by thoughtbot, which is designed to streamline and enhance product development. Ferdia and Rami explain how the kit aims to compress the design process into a focused five-day sprint, allowing teams to move from idea to user-tested prototype efficiently. They discuss the genesis of the kit, its components, and the rationale behind making it openly available. Towards the end of the episode, the conversation shifts towards the broader implications of design in product development, the iterative nature of design sprints, and the value of user feedback in guiding product decisions. Rami and Ferdia share real-world examples where product design sprints led to significant pivots or refinements in product strategy, emphasizing the critical role of user testing in uncovering genuine user needs versus presumed functionalities. Follow Rami Taibah on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ramitaibah/). Follow Ferdia Kenny on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdiakenny/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL:  This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your co-host, Victoria Guido. And with us today are Rami Taibah, Senior Designer at thoughtbot, and Ferdia Kenny, Senior Designer at thoughtbot, here to talk to us about the newly released Product Design Sprint Kit from thoughtbot. Ferdia and Rami, thank you for joining us. Why don't you introduce yourselves a little bit, tell us a little bit about each of your background while we get started? FERDIA: I'm Ferdia. I'm a product designer at thoughtbot. I've been with the company for nearly three years now. I'm based in Dublin in Ireland, but I'm from the West Coast of Ireland. Happy to be on the podcast. It's my first time coming on, so that'll be a new experience. RAMI: Yeah, so I'm Rami Taibah, and I am also a senior designer at thoughtbot for nearly two years. I'm also from the West Coast, like Ferdia, but I didn't move. I'm still where I'm from [laughs]. VICTORIA: Yeah, so just to get us warmed up here, why don't you tell us something interesting going on in your lives outside of work you want to share with the group? FERDIA: For me, I'm trying to do a bit of traveling at the moment. So, one of the benefits, obviously, of working with thoughtbot is that we are a fully remote company. As long as we're kind of staying roughly within our time zones, we can kind of travel around a little bit. So, I'm actually in France at the moment and going to Spain in March. So yeah, I'll be working from a couple of different spots, which is really cool and a lot of fun. RAMI: Yeah, it's pretty cool. I always see Ferdia, like, having these meetings in, like, these different locations. Just a few months ago, you were in Italy, right? FERDIA: Yeah. Yeah [laughs], that's right, yeah. RAMI: Yeah. So, for me, well, first of all, I got a new baby, new baby girl, exactly on New Year's Day, so that's interesting, going back home every day and seeing how they evolve very quickly at this age. Another thing is I've been doing a lot of Olympic weightlifting. It's probably one of the consistent things in my life since COVID. I was a CrossFitter. I got out of that, thankfully. But coming back into, like, after quarantine, weightlifting seemed like a good choice because it doesn't have the social aspect of CrossFit, and I can just do it on my own. WILL: How is your sleep? RAMI: I'm a heavy sleeper, and I feel guilty about it, so no problems here [laughs]. WILL: Yeah, that was one thing I'm still trying to recover from–sleep. I love my sleep. And so, I know some people can do with little sleep, but I like sleep. And so, I'm just now recovering, and we're almost two years since my baby boy, so [chuckles]... RAMI: Yeah, I'm a heavy sleeper. And I tell my wife, like, we have this understanding, like, if you ever need anything from me besides...because she has to be up for, like, breastfeeding, just kick me. I'll wake up. I'll do whatever you need [laughs]. WILL: That's awesome. VICTORIA: So, my understanding is that if you want to get better at any sport, if you get better at deadlifting, that will help you progress in your sport pretty much. That's my [laughs] understanding. I don't know if you all feel that way as well. RAMI: Oh, I never heard that. But I do know that these three, like, three or four basic lifts just basically boosts you in everything else, like, deadlifts, back squats. And what was the third one? Bench press, I guess. FERDIA: And pull-ups as well, I think, is a compound exercise. I just hate like this. I look for an excuse to skip them, so...[chuckles] VICTORIA: Yeah, the four essential exercises, but it doesn't mean that they're fun, right? FERDIA: [chuckles] VICTORIA: Yeah. And then, Will, I heard you were also training for a new activity, the 5k. WILL: Yeah, I'm going to run a 5k with my best friend. He's coming into town. So, I'm excited about it. I've always tried to do running, but my form was horrible, and I'll get injured, tried to do too much. And I think I finally figured it out, taking it slow, stretching, making sure my form is correct. So, it's been good. I've enjoyed it. And it's interesting looking at what I'm doing now versus when I first started. And I was like, whoa, like, when I first started, I couldn't even run a mile, and I'd be out of breath and dying and just like, ah, and then now it's like, oh, okay, now I'm recovered, and I can walk it off. So, one thing it's taught me is just consistent, being consistent because I feel like with working out and running, you have this, like, two-week period that it's just hard. Everything hurts. Your body is aching. But then after that, your body is like, okay, you're serious. Okay, then, like, I can adjust and do that. And then once you get over that two weeks, it's like, oh, okay, like, still, like, sometimes I still push it and get sore, but for the most part, my body is like, okay, I get it. Let's do this. And then now, compared to before, now I'm just like, I can't stop because I don't want to go back through that two weeks of pain that I started at, at the very beginning. So, yeah, it's been a very good journey. I don't know how far I'm going to go with it. I don't know if I'm going to go a full marathon or a half marathon. I will increase it and do multiple races, but yeah, I don't know how far I'm going to go with it. VICTORIA: Well, it's interesting. It reminds me how, like, anytime you do something new, you're forming new neural pathways in your brain, then you can get in a routine, and it becomes easier and easier every time you do it. So, I'm going to try to relate this back to our Product Design Sprint Kit. It's like a set of exercises you can learn how to do that might be difficult at first, but then it becomes a part of the way that you work and how you build products, right? So, why don't you tell me a little bit about it? Like, what is it? What is the product design kit that you just came out with? FERDIA: The PDS kit or the Product Design Sprint Kit it was something that I'd kind of been playing around with in investment time for a while, and then spoke to Rami about it a couple of months ago, and he got on board. And it really accelerated what we were doing. And it was basically, like, a product design sprint is a known process in design and product design and product development. I think it was started by Google. And, essentially, the concept is that you can take an idea that you have for something new and, in five days, go from that idea to creating something that can be user tested, and so getting real kind of validated feedback on your idea. Yeah, so try to do it in a compressed timeframe. That's why it's called a sprint. So, you're trying to do it within five days. And the concept for kind of creating a kit that we could share to people beyond thoughtbot was that we tend to repeat a lot of the same instructions in each sprint, so we're running very similar exercises. The outcomes are slightly different, obviously, depending on the customer, but the exercises themselves are pretty similar. So, the [inaudible 06:42] kind of when we're talking to the customer are often very much the same. And we just thought that we get a lot of inquiries from start-ups, I think probably maybe even more so in Europe, before they're funded and looking kind of for the first step. Like, what can they do? So, a lot of them, if they're not in a position to, say, pay for some of our design team to come on with them and run a sprint with them, we thought it'd be cool to be able to give them, well, you know, this is something free that you can run yourself with your team and will kind of get you on the ladder. It will hopefully give you something that you can then take to an investor or somebody that could potentially fund a kind of bigger sprint or maybe even an MVP build. WILL: Let me ask you this: Why is design so important? So, if I'm a developer, or a CTO, or a CEO of whatever, why should I be an advocate for design? RAMI: Well, over here at thoughtbot, we do a lot of iterative design. I think that's a key factor that we should take into consideration. With iterative design, it's the idea of designing something based on a validation or based on a user and doing it quickly and testing it to get feedback from the user or from the market and adjust from there, instead of just designing something in, like, a silo and releasing it after six months and then discovering that you went off course four months ago. And that will cost you a lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of agony, I guess [laughs]. And it just generally will become a very frustrating process. I've seen clients before thoughtbot where they come in and they've been working on this thing for six months, and they're just not releasing and pushing the release for month on month just because the CEO does not feel like it's at par with what he's using on, like, everyday apps. And he's, like, looking at, oh, I want to look like Instagram, or feel like Instagram, or feel like whatever they like when, in reality, products don't evolve that way. And Instagram has already, I don't know, 12 years of development and design behind it. And you can't possibly expect your app that you're launching for your startup to feel the same, look the same, and all that stuff. That's why design is important. So, you just discover early on that you are on the right path and always correcting course with different design techniques, including the PDS. FERDIA: What you're talking about there just de-risks a lot of stuff for people when they're trying to create something new. You could have the, you know, a really, really impressive product under the hood that can do a lot of really technical stuff. But if it's very hard to use, or if it's very hard to kind of tap into that magic that you've built on the development side, people just won't use it, and you won't be able to generate the revenue you want. So yeah, the user experience and kind of the design around that is really important to get people actually using your product. VICTORIA: Yeah, I can relate to what you all have said. I've talked with founders before, who they maybe have a lot of experience in the industry and the problem that they are trying to solve. They think I know what it should look like. I just need developers to build it. But the activities you described about the product design sprint and creating something where you can go out and test that theory, and then incorporate that feedback into your product, and doing it within five days, it seems like a really powerful tool to be able to get you on the right path and avoid hundreds of thousands of dollars of development spend, right? FERDIA: Yeah, 100%, yeah. And, like, a typical outcome for a product design sprint will never be a fully polished, like, perfect design. That's just...it's not realistic. But what you will hopefully have by the end of that five days is you will know, okay, these are, like, five or six things that we're doing right, and these are things we should keep going with. And maybe here are three or four things that we thought users would like, or potential customers would like, and we are actually wrong about those. So, we need to change those things and maybe focus on something else. So, as Rami said, design is an iterative process that is like your first iteration. But getting that feedback is so helpful because, as Rami said, if you spend six months developing something and figure out that 4 of the ten things that you built weren't needed or were wrong, or customers just didn't want them, that's a really, really expensive exercise. So, a design sprint, kind of if you're to do them on a continuous basis or every couple of months, can be a really helpful way to check in with users to make sure what you're committing your resources to is actually going to benefit them in the long run. RAMI: Yeah. And I would also like to add, like, one of the outputs of a design sprint is a prototype. To me, I'm always like, seeing is believing. It's just better to have a prototype as a communication tool within the team with clients, with customers, with users, instead of having, like, a document or even just wireframes. It just doesn't really deliver what you're trying to do, like a prototype. FERDIA: Yeah, 100%, Rami. And, like, on the prototype, like, a good comparison that people, if they're not in product development, might have seen it's like if you're building a house, like yourself, Victoria, a lot of architects will give you two-dimensional plans. And for people that aren't in the building industry, plans can be difficult to read or difficult to visualize what those actually look like. But if you can give someone a 3D representation of the house, you know, they can see, oh yeah, this is what it's going to kind of look like and what it's going to feel like. And the prototype that Rami is talking about gives you exactly that. So, it's not just this is our idea; it's, this is actually what the thing could look like, and what do you think of that? So yeah, it's definitely a valuable output. VICTORIA: We're having this debate about whether or not we need a designer for our renovation project. And I'm very much pro [laughs] designer. And maybe that's from my background and being in software development and, like, let's get an expert in here, and they will help us figure it out [laughs], and then we'll make less mistakes and less expensive mistakes going forward. So, I think there's a lot of analogies there. So, this product design sprint is a service that we offer at thoughtbot as well, right? We do workshops and meetings together with the client, and you all have this idea to record the videos and put all the content out there for free. So, I'm curious how that conversation went within management at thoughtbot and how did the idea really get started and get some traction going. FERDIA: The benefit of the Product Design Sprint Kit what you get out of it won't replace, say, doing a product design sprint with thoughtbot because you will have expert product designers or developers in the room with you to kind of share their ideas and their experience. So, the output you're going to get from running a sprint with thoughtbot will be more beneficial, definitely. But what we were trying to, I suppose, cater for was people that fall in the gap, that they're not quite ready to bring thoughtbot on board, or they don't have enough funding to bring thoughtbot on board to do a product design sprint, or a longer discovery sprint, or something like that. But we want to be able to give those people in kind of the software community something actionable that they can actually take and use. So, the first three days, I think, of the Product Design Sprint Kit will be really, really valuable to people. It'll really help them identify the problem that they're trying to solve and then to come up with a lot of different solutions and to try to pick one of those. And probably where it's going to be a bit more challenging if you don't have experience in design or in development will be around the prototype, which Rami had spoken about. You can kind of do some offline things, and there are ways to test things without, say, a high-fidelity prototype, but those high-fidelity prototypes, again, are something that could be helpful. But thoughtbot has always had an approach of kind of giving stuff for free to the community, either open source or just letting people, yeah, letting people learn from our resources and from what we know. And so, yeah, this is just a way to, hopefully, cater to people that we currently can't work with for a variety of reasons but that this is something that they could maybe use in the meantime. MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you’re tight on time and investment, which is why we’ve created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product’s next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at tbot.io/entrepreneurs. WILL: So, can you break down...you said it's five days. Can you break down what is walking you through, like, each day? And, like, what experience do I have? Because I know, I've tried to get in Figma sometimes, and it's not easy. It's a pain at times. You're trying to maneuver and stuff like that. So, what do I have to do? Like, do you show me how Figma? Do you give me a template with Figma? Like, how do you help me with those things? And I know Miro and those things. So, like, walk me through each step of the sprint. RAMI: Yeah, well, I mean, Figma and Miro are just tools that just became popular, I guess, after COVID. Design sprints used to be physical, in the same room as sprints. You would get the clients or the stakeholders in a room and do all that stuff. But Figma, FigJam, and, you know, kind of...I don't know if this was part of their, like, product thinking, but it kind of allowed doing full-on design sprints in their tools. So, the first step or the first day would be, like, the understanding day where basically we gather information about the product, the users, what's out there, and just come up with a general plan on how to go forward. And the second day would be divergent where we just look at what's out there and come up with these crazy ideas, kind of, like, a brainstorming thing but in a more inclusive, I guess, way and in a more organized way. So, you don't have people shouting over each other. Like, being anonymous also is important on this day, so nobody really knows what you're doing or saying. It's just ideas to remove bias. Then, we'd have a converge day where we take all these ideas and consolidate them, which will be an input into the prototype phase. And the last day is the test phase. I mean, each of these days you can talk...have a full podcast. VICTORIA: I'm curious about when you're testing and when you're, like, I'll say thoughtbot is a global company, right? And so, there's lots of different types of users and groups that you might be wanting to use your app. I'm thinking, you know, sometimes, in particular, some of the applications I've been looking at are targeting people who maybe they don't have an iPhone. They maybe have lower income or less means and access to get products and services. So, how does your design sprint talk to designing for different types of communities? FERDIA: I think that's a great question, Victoria. I would say the first thing on it is that we'd often get a lot of people with a startup idea, and they would come in and say, "You know, this app could be used by everybody. So, like, we have kind of no beachhead market or no target market. Like, this would be great for the whole world." That's a very nice thought to have if it is something that could potentially be used by everyone. But we would generally say you should pick a smaller niche to try to establish yourself in first and hit a home run basically with that niche first, and then kind of grow from there. We would normally say to people as, like, again, this is going back to what Rami said about the iterative process. If at the end of the five days, you've picked the wrong beachhead market and it doesn't hit home with them, that's fine. You can just do another sprint next week or next month on a different kind of subsection of the market. So, I think picking a fairly niche sector of the market is a good starting point. You then run your product design sprint with that niche in mind and try to talk to five users from that. And, generally, we say five because, generally, if you have less than or fewer than five people contributing, you probably won't get enough data. You know that you could...if you only test with two people, you probably wouldn't get a thorough enough data set. And then, normally, once you go over five, you kind of start seeing the patterns repeating themselves. You get kind of diminishing returns, I guess, after five. So, that would generally be the approach. Try to identify your beachhead market, the one you want to go into first, and then you will try to talk to five people generally from the founding team's network that match the criteria of that beachhead market. And, in some ways, just the final point, I guess, is the fact that you have to pull them from your network is actually beneficial to kind of make you narrow down and pick a niche market that's accessible to you because you know people in it. RAMI: And maybe if you don't know anybody, then maybe you're in the wrong industry. FERDIA: Yeah. Great point. Great point because, yeah, it makes it a lot easier. It's nice to have loads of industries that you could go into, but it makes it so much easier if the founding team have contacts in an industry. Yeah, it makes a big difference. WILL: Yeah, I was going through the different days and kind of what you were talking about. So, like, one day is brainstorming, then converge, and then prototyping, and user testing kind of on that last day. It seems like it's completely laid out. Like, you're giving away all the keys except experience from the actual designer. It seems like it's all laid out. Was that the goal to, like, really have them fully laid out? Hey, you can do this from point A to point B, and this is what it looks like. Is that something that you're...because that's what it looks like as my experience with designers and stuff. And if that's the case, what was your reasoning behind that, to give it away? For someone, like you said, like a startup they can do this because you pretty much laid it all out. I'm not a designer, and I don't claim to, but it looks like I can do this from what you laid out. RAMI: Well, first of all, like, at thoughtbot, we're really big into open source, and open source is not always just development. It can be these kinds of things, right? It's not a trade secret. It's not something we came up with. We maybe evolved it a little bit from Google, I think it was Google Ventures, but we just evolved it. And, at the end of the day, it's something that anybody can do. But, actually, taking the output from it is something that we do as thoughtbot. Like, okay, you have a prototype. That's great. You tested it, but okay, now we want to make it happen. If you can make it happen, then great, but the reality is that a lot of people can't, and that's why there are, like, a gazillion agencies out there that do these things. So, the reasoning, I guess, and Ferdia can expand on, is, like, if somebody takes this and comes up with a great prototype and feels confident that they actually want to develop this idea, who else would be better than thoughtbot who actually gave them the keys to everything? FERDIA: Yeah, 100%, Rami. Yeah, it's essentially just helping people get on the first rung of the product development ladder with fewer barriers to entry, so you don't have to have a couple of thousand dollars saved up to run a sprint. This kind of gives you a really, really low entry point. And I guess there's another use case for it where you would often have potentially founders or even companies that want to release a new product or feature. And they might reach out to thoughtbot because they want to develop something, and they're very sure that this is what we want to develop. And, you know, maybe they don't want to engage with a product design sprint or something like that if they think they know their market well enough. And this could be a handy tool just to say to them, "Okay, if you can go away, take this free resource for a week, run a product design sprint with your team, and come back to us and tell us that nothing has changed, you know that you've correctly identified the right market and that you've validated your theories with them," then we can kind of jump into development from there. But yeah, it can be a good way, I suppose, to show the value of doing a product design sprint. As I said, a lot of people come in, and they have great ideas, and they can be fairly certain that this is going to work. But a product design sprint is really, really valuable to validate those before you dive into building. VICTORIA: And can you give us an example from your experience of a client who went through a product design sprint and decided to pivot maybe their main idea and go in a different direction? FERDIA: I'm not sure off the top of my head, Victoria, if I can pick one that pivoted in a completely different direction, but definitely, like, some of the clients that we worked with on the Fusion team in thoughtbot ended up changing direction or changing the customer that they were going after. So, some people might have had an idea in their head of who they wanted to tackle and might have had a particular, say, feature prioritized for that person. And through the product design sprint, we were able to validate that, actually, this feature is not that important. This other feature is more important, and it's more important to a different group than kind of what you initially thought. That would happen fairly regularly on a product design sprint. Like, I think if you look at the potential outcomes, one being that everything's exactly as you thought it was and you can proceed as planned, or the opposite end of the spectrum where nothing is as you thought it was and, you know, you kind of have to go back to the drawing board, it's very rare that you're on either end of those after a product design sprint. Most of the time, you're somewhere in the middle. You've changed a few things, and you're able to keep a few things, and that's kind of normally where they land. So, I would say nearly every customer that we've done a product design sprint with has changed some things, but never kind of gone back to the drawing board and started from scratch. RAMI: It's usually prioritization and just understanding what to do and also, like, get into the details of how to do it. That's where the value comes in. But, like, completely pivoting from a food delivery app to, I don't know, NFTs [laughs] never really happened. VICTORIA: Yeah, and it doesn't have to necessarily be a big pivot but looking for, like, a real-world example, like, maybe you're building an e-commerce site for a plant marketplace or something like that. RAMI: Yeah. Well, we had a self-help app where they already had the app in the market. It was a progressive web app, and they were really keen on improving this mood tracker feature. But then we did a product design sprint, and they had a bunch of other features, and that exercise kind of reprioritized. And the mood tracker ended up not being released in the first version of the actual mobile app because we were also developing a native app. VICTORIA: Gotcha. So, they were pretty convinced that this was an important feature that people wanted to track their mood in their app. And then, when they went through and tested it, users were actually like, "There's this other feature that's more important to me." FERDIA: One example of another client that we did, which was a kind of a wellness app, they wanted it to feel like a friend in your pocket. So, they were looking at ways to integrate with WhatsApp that you'd get notifications via WhatsApp. So, they would kind of be, like, friendly messages to people as if it's your friend, you know, texting you to check in. And that was kind of an idea going into it, and users did not like that at all. Like, they really didn't like that. So, we ditched that [inaudible 25:49] completely. But, again, that could have been something that they would have spent a long time developing to try to implement, and then to have users say this would have been a very, very costly waste of time. So, we figured that out in a few days, which was a money saver for the team. VICTORIA: And it must be pretty emotional to have that feedback, right? Like, it's better to get it early on so that you don't invest all the money and time into it. But as a founder, I'm sure you're so passionate about your ideas, and you really think you have the answers from your experience, most likely. So, I'm curious if there's any kind of emotional management you do with clients during this product design sprint. FERDIA: I think it definitely is. I think people, as I said, often come in with very strong opinions of what they feel will work. And it might even be a product that they specifically want, or they might be one of those potential users. And I actually think, say, engaging an agency like thoughtbot to design something like that, if we felt that they were going down the wrong path, that could be actually quite difficult to do. But because of product design sprints, you are user-testing it. The founders are hearing this feedback from the horse's mouth, so to speak. They're hearing it directly from potential customers. So, it's a lot more black and white. Now, sometimes, it might still be a case that a founder then doesn't want to proceed with that idea if it's not kind of going to be the way that they wanted it to be, and that's fair enough as well. But the feedback, as I said, it tends not to be that the idea is completely scrapped. It just means that you move a couple of things around. As Rami said, you deprioritize some things and prioritize other things for the first version, and that tends to be the outcome of it. VICTORIA: Are the users always right, or is it sometimes you can have an idea that persist, despite the early feedback from users? RAMI: Interesting question. Like, I see the parallels you're doing with the customer is always right, yeah. But the thing is, like, that's just my opinion, I think. We tested with users, and we kind of observe how they react to it and how they use the prototype. So, it's not like an opinion session or, like, a focus group where they're actually giving...a user can say something and do something else or react in a different way. But yeah, it's a fine line, I think. But I would be really surprised if ten users would agree on something and say something, and their behavior also would reflect that, and we won't pick up on. VICTORIA: Yes, I like the distinction you're making between what they say and then what the behavior shows, right? FERDIA: I think something important there as well, like you'll often hear it in design communities, is that you should listen to the feedback from customers but maybe not the solutions that they're proposing. Because, at the end of the day, like, thoughtbot have experts in product design and product development, so we want to figure out from the user's perspective what they want to achieve and maybe what their problems are, but not necessarily take into account or just, I suppose, not necessarily just follow exactly what they say the solution should be. You're kind of looking for the problems and the things that they're struggling with. You're trying to pick those up rather than just to do the solution that the customer is telling you. And you'll see that in a lot of startups as well that, you know, it's the famous Henry Ford quote about, you know, "If I'd listened to my customers, I'd have designed a faster horse." Sometimes, you need to listen to the problem, and the problem is getting from A to B faster, and then you come up with a solution for that rather than the solution that's been recommended to you. WILL: I want to pivot a little bit and ask you both, why did you get into design? FERDIA: I actually did architecture in university, and there were aspects of that I liked. Funnily enough, it's a fairly similar process to designing for software, and then it's an iterative approach. You're given a brief and yet you kind of take a concept forward. But then, when you apply for planning, you have to make changes. And when you kind of put [inaudible 29:41], you make changes. So, you're constantly, I suppose, designing iteratively. And then I got into startups and was kind of wearing a lot of different hats in that startup sort of world. But the product was the one area that always kind of got me excited. So, you know, if you tried to make a sale with a particular customer and they didn't want to go over something, like, coming home and trying to figure out, okay, how can I fix that problem with the product so that next time when I go to a customer, and they'll say, "Yes"? That was kind of what always gave me the adrenaline. So yeah, comparatively, between architecture and software, the turnaround times in software is so much faster that I think it's more enjoyable than architecture. You kind of can really see progress. Product design sprint in five days. You can kind of take something a long way whereas designing a building is a bit slower, but it's always kind of been some area of interest. Well, what about you, Rami? RAMI: Well, I wanted to become a hacker, but I ended up to be a designer [laughs]. No, really, when, like, in middle school, I really wanted to be a hacker and kept looking up what is it. Like, I see it in all these movies really cool, and I wanted to understand, like, how it's done online. And I saw, like, everybody is talking about this weird, little thing called command line. And it turns out, like, all these hacking, quote, unquote, "hacking tutorials" were done on Linux. So, I started looking into Linux and got into Linux. From there, I started blogging about Linux, and then I just really got into technology. I was in marketing. By then, I was a marketing major. So, that got me into blogging into, like, Linux and open source, which kind of triggered in my head, okay, I need to maybe pivot to a different career path. So, I did a master's degree in information management. Over there, I stumbled into design. The information management school that I was in, like, it was an interdisciplinary school at, like, design, coding, and business all mixed in. So, I stumbled in design there. VICTORIA: That's how you all got started. And now you've put this product out there pretty recently. I'm curious if you have thought about how you would measure the success of this effort. So, how do you know that what you put out there in the product designs kit is helping people or achieving the goals that you had originally set out to? FERDIA: Initially, Victoria, we obviously like to see the view counts going up on YouTube, and we're always open to feedback. So, like, at the end of each video and in the resources and stuff, we've got contact us kind of links and stuff. So, if people have feedback on how we could make it better or more useful, that would be really, really welcome. So, do feel free to reach out to us. And kind of the ultimate success metric for us would be to have somebody come to us in future and say, "Oh, we used that Product Design Sprint Kit that you produced before, and we either got funding or, you know, we got so much value out of it that we'd like to do a full product design sprint or an MVP build, or something like that." And the equivalent that we would kind of have a lot of in thoughtbot would be, say, gems in development where we would get people reaching out and say, "We use that gem all the time. We know about thoughtbot because of that." That kind of is a way to establish trust with potential customers. So, we're hoping that this is somewhat of an equivalent on the design side. WILL: Oh, it's been great chatting with both of you about design and what you came up with this. I really like it. I'm going to look more into it. VICTORIA: Yes. Thank you both for joining us. And I had one question. So, the sprint is the short-term. What would be, like, a product design marathon? Like, what's [chuckles] the big picture for people who are building products? Maybe that's a silly question, but... RAMI: No, it's not, I mean, but I would guess it's actually building the product and having a successful product in the market and iterate over it for years and years. VICTORIA: Yeah. So, it's a one-week sprint, and you could do it over and over again for many years just to fine-tune and really make sure that your product is meeting the needs of the people you were hoping to reach. Wonderful. All right. Well, thank you both so much for joining us. WILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry. VICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at [email protected] with any questions.

Victoria Guido hosts Dr. Ramon Lizardo, CEO of Tele911, to discuss his company's innovative approach to emergency room diversion. Dr. Lizardo shares his journey from being a physician frustrated with the inefficiencies in emergency care to leveraging technology for better healthcare delivery. Tele911 is a service that transforms how emergency responses are handled. Rather than transporting patients to hospitals for non-critical care, Tele911 facilitates on-site treatments through paramedics equipped with iPads, allowing doctors to provide remote consultations, streamlining emergency services, and reducing unnecessary hospital visits and costs. Dr. Lizardo's motivation for founding Tele911 was driven by personal experiences and the desire to improve emergency healthcare delivery. He recounts the challenges of pioneering in digital health, particularly the initial skepticism from investors and potential users about remote medical services. The COVID-19 pandemic became a turning point, accelerating acceptance and demand for Tele911's services, and Dr. Lizardo discusses the challenges of scaling the service, maintaining data privacy, and the importance of a values-driven approach to business. Tele911 (https://www.tele911.com/) Follow Tele911 on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/tele911/), X (https://twitter.com/tele911_), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/tele911_/), or YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@Tele911). Follow Dr. Ramon Lizardo on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ramonlizardomd/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA:  This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Dr. Ramon Lizardo, CEO of Tele911, the leader in emergency room diversion. Dr. Lizardo, thank you for joining me. DR. LIZARDO: Hey, Victoria. Good to connect with you once again. How are you? VICTORIA: I'm good. It's raining in San Diego, so, unlike the song, it does happen sometimes in Southern California. DR. LIZARDO: [laughs] But I love San Diego, by the way. It's one of those places where I feel like you have literally the perfect weather and perfect access to food. I'm a fan of Mexican food. And you can literally get the best Mexican food from, like, all of the trucks in San Diego. I truly believe that. VICTORIA: That's true. The only better place to get Mexican food in San Diego is just to go to Mexico. You -- DR. LIZARDO: There you go [laughter]. VICTORIA: Yeah. I actually went to a startup event that was in Tijuana on a Tuesday night and just walked over the border and walked back, and it was great. DR. LIZARDO: That is awesome. VICTORIA: [laughs] DR. LIZARDO: You know, there's a lot of expats living there now. It's really interesting, in Baja, California. VICTORIA: Yeah, there's some back and forth there. And yeah, so just give me a little bit about your background and a little bit more about Tele911. DR. LIZARDO: I'm a physician by training, but I've been in tech for about 15 years now. Tele911 is basically the child of a parent that was really frustrated with their specialty. So, I signed up for emergency medicine, and I realized a lot of what was happening was primary care. That led me to pursue a career in consulting. I worked at one of the Big Fours, interned at McKinsey, worked at Deloitte. Then, I started or joined a series of other startups that were very successful. About three exits in, I said, hey, remember that idea that actually got me out? Being frustrated in ER because a lot of these patients didn't need to go to the hospital but were there. Well, this is how this comes about. Tele911 is basically the product of a lot of frustration, but a lot of innovation. And now we're pretty much reshaping history. In California, Texas, or Florida, when a patient calls 911 now, an ambulance shows up, but instead of being taken to the hospital, they're actually seen at home in something called treatment in place. We're the doctor on the iPad of the paramedic. VICTORIA: So, thank you. That's a great interest. So, you had this background in consulting, and you had this experience as a physician, and then you decided to solve this really big problem with the cost around emergency rooms. So, before we dive into more around Tele911 and what you're doing with it, I thought we could warm up a little bit by just telling me, what gets you up in the morning? DR. LIZARDO: [laughs] What gets me up in the morning? Well, I'm blessed because I have a two and a six-year-old. So [laughs], the truth is they're the ones that get me up. They usually wake up way before I do. So, if you come to this house about 5:15, 5:30, I feel like everyone's awake, and if you come to this house at 9:00 p.m., we're fast asleep. But what gets me up in the morning is that, above all, I'm a father and a husband. I also run the nation's largest ER diversion company, which operates 24/7, and emergencies happen throughout the night. So, depending on what's happening throughout the night, I'm either up at 2:00, 4:00, 6:00 a.m. But what fuels me, though, every day is two things. One is I want to be an excellent husband and father, and I want to be present for everything that I can, especially when I'm home what's happening in my family's life. But two, I'm part of this company that's changing the landscape of healthcare. You know, I've been part of other companies, but this is really one of those legacy events in life where I'm building something that's really changing the way healthcare is being delivered. And I understand that's my personal mission, and that's something that I strive for every day, and because of that, that drive just comes naturally. I'm working on something that's way bigger than me, something that my kids are going to be reading about 10, 20, 30, 40 years from now, and probably they're going to say, "Yeah, that was innovative back then [laughs], but now this is how we receive healthcare, which is awesome." VICTORIA: That's cool. So, it's like the impact your company's having and the drive to be a part of your family and, of course, your kids waking you up in the morning. And is it all of that, or is it also the chickens? Because I had chickens growing up. DR. LIZARDO: [laughs] VICTORIA: And they would always, like, crow, like, really early in the morning. DR. LIZARDO: [laughs] Yeah, Victoria, that's awesome. If you come to this house at 5:45, what you're going to see is me in a robe in the middle of a snowstorm, at least for now, going out and changing the water of the chickens. So, one of the things that we've done with our household is made it more of a sustainable household. There's a living thing in every one of these rooms in our house. There's a guava tree growing in our living room, literally, a tree from the tropics growing in Princeton. There are citrus trees growing in our dining rooms. We grow about 30 different types of vegetables and fruits on our property. And we also have livestock like chickens, which, honestly, I think we've learned that when we see things grow, we're more inclined to try them and taste them. You know, over the weekend, we had our neighbors, and one of the neighbors was like, "You have an actual olive tree from Italy growing in your..." it's about eight feet in our family room...sorry, in the kids' playroom. They were like, "I've never seen that before." I basically told them, "You should come back in a few months and pick some olives." We love this ecosystem that we've built around sustainability, and it basically has brought our family together in order to work on things like trying to figure out how to grow these trees inside our house and outside our house. VICTORIA: It must be such a cool experience for your kids to see something grow from a seed into something they can eat and, interact with and enjoy. And to bring it all back, I'm wondering, what was the seed for you to decide to focus on 911 or emergency services and solving that problem that people face? And maybe describe even a little bit of, like, what is the impact of divergent and emergency room services. DR. LIZARDO: I feel like every great leader has something personal that's attached to what's fueling them, and, in my case, it's my dad. So, my dad has a heart condition, and, you know, there's been times where they've had to call 911. In the nation right now, 911 is a very antiquated and struggling system. As a matter of fact, ambulances have become very expensive Uber drivers. Eight out of every ten calls that's medically related to a 911 does not need an ambulance and yet uses one to go to the hospitals. Most people in the U.S. believe that if they call 911 and they get an ambulance, they're going to be expedited at the hospital, which is not true. So, I know, unfortunately, that one day, my dad's going to call 911 because he really needs it, or someone in my family will. And I'm basically building a system that when he calls, he's going to get a faster response. By doing that, by basically doing what we do, we actually take care of the low-level emergency so when the real emergencies come, they actually are able to go through. You know, Tele911 really tackles three things, three major problems in the industry. One is basically the pipes into 911 are overflooded. Sometimes, you're put on hold. Sometimes, you call 911, and they transfer you to another state because they're just so overrun. And basically, now we're creating pipes that actually allow them to take the real emergencies. Two, the health plans. Every health plan in the United States 80% of what they do is actually try to figure out how to keep you out of the hospital. It's called utilization management. And it's just crazy how if you look at these monster health plans, their number one rule is, 'Please don't go to the hospital,' and that's the number one thing people actually do. And, for them, what we're solving is a huge problem because now they're able to take risk and actually control their budgets a lot better and, in effect, give better rates because they know that if they call 911 unnecessarily, they're going to be treated in place. But lastly, it's because the people that are calling 911...medical debts is the number one reason for bankruptcy in the U.S. right now, and these people that are calling 911 they're going bankrupt. If you call 911 in California, in certain counties, the ambulance is $6,000, again, 6,000, even if you use it unnecessarily, let's say for a paper cut. And what I've done is basically created a company that solves for all three: for patients that need the care and basically think 911 is the only resource, for health plans that want to control these costs, but both fall for our lines. I want our lines to be free for the true emergencies. VICTORIA: So, it was a personal experience with your father and the need for that. And I can relate to that, as well as having elderly family members who have conditions, who regularly need support. A lot of trouble is even just getting people to the hospital, and they can have services delivered right there in their home. Anything in the early discovery phase of trying to solve this problem that caused you to pivot your strategy in your approach? DR. LIZARDO: Absolutely. So, Tele911 right now is the product of, you know, an idea that was written on the back of a greasy napkin [laughs] at a Bojangles in South Carolina at a medical conference. But what you see today as the nation's leading ER diversion company and one of the most successful companies in digital healthcare is a product of three failures. We actually tried this multiple times and failed. And it wasn't until COVID happened, and we realized there was an acceleration and an acceptance for video calls, that we noticed that, hey, this is actually a better way, and it can happen now. The irony of this [chuckles] is that we didn't think it was going to work so well. When we went commercial last year, we were like, maybe we could just do 300 calls. And in exchange, we started doing this by the thousands. A few months in, we're in the several thousands, and we're like, oh my God, this is working. And then, by the end of the year, we covered over 5 million lives by geography, and I realized we're on to something. Legislations passed with our name on it. So, you know, this idea that struggled, and we had to restart multiple times, we did not give up. And in exchange, I mean, we're literally making history. VICTORIA: I love that. Yeah, so pre-COVID the idea of having medical services delivered virtually, I wonder what feedback you got from investors or from people interested in the idea at that time. DR. LIZARDO: [laughs] No one wanted it [laughs]. No one wanted, you know, you show up to someone's house, and they're like, "Yeah, we're not going to take you to the hospital. We're going to have you see a doctor on the screen." They would be like, "No, I'm going," right? [laughs] Like, "This is not working." Also, even the counties, they were like, "This is too risky. What do you mean the doctor's going to be on the screen?" There wasn't a high level of adoption for something like this, and, you know, it struggled a lot. I recall pitching the idea and people coming back to me and saying, "Well, you know, I love this. Tell me when it works. Tell me when you have enough traction." You know, it's funny because those are the same people now that are on our waitlist who now basically really need this, really want this, but we let them know there are 35 million more lives in coverage based on the counties just in our waitlist. It's a testament to just how awesome this product is and how fast it's adopted, but also the true need for something like this as part of the healthcare delivery continuum. VICTORIA: Wow. Yeah. That's incredible that once you found the right fit, it became acceptable and even necessary to receive care virtually during the pandemic, and it really took off. So, now that you've gotten some initial traction and more than enough, what are your challenges that you see on the horizon? DR. LIZARDO: So, a few challenges. Let's talk about how this went from, hey, a good idea to now a standard across different states. So, for example, in certain counties, and, I mean, this happens in every state as well. I'll give you an example of Florida. The hospitals are literally two hours away. Florida is incredibly rural. They either are able to see a doctor through our telemedicine platform, or they have to go on an ambulance for two hours, and that ambulance is away for six hours, like an entire shift. So, one of the things that I've seen is a huge challenge is our product has grown expansively. So, what we do is we're basically building a larger network to be able to deliver for a larger volume. By the way, every time someone presses that button, within 40 seconds, on average, you get an emergency medicine physician that's board-certified in that state. And, I mean, that number used to be 2 minutes, then 1 minute, and now we're at 40 seconds. Eventually, it's going to be 10 seconds. I'm pretty sure myself, someone who worked in emergency medicine, can't reach my friend in 10 seconds [chuckles], but this product does, which is what's fascinating about it, that high level of care. But with that same issue, we're now doing this for the tens of thousands. And within the next two years, we're going to be doing this for the hundreds, you know, we're forecasting hundreds of thousands of calls. So, how do we prepare for that? How many emergency medicine physicians are in the U.S.? Can we cover those amount of lives? You know, do we continue to expand across auxiliary like APNs and higher tiers below MDs? So, these are the kind of things that I have to constantly think about. These are the kind of things that the government now reaches out to me to just get some advice on. Everyone's approved this. Now it's more, how do we scale this as we continue to make this the gold standard? VICTORIA: The scaling becomes a top priority. And as a CEO who needs to build a management team around yourself, how do you identify where you have needs and where to find the people to perform the task you need to scale? DR. LIZARDO: That really does depend on the role. One of the good things...so I used to sit on clinical boards for about 16 health plans, which allows me to have a very expansive network, particularly within healthcare and products. So, I know that the people are out there. The thing is, working at Tele911 is a very different type of environment than most people are used to. Here, we really fall fast collectively, lick our wounds, and redirect together. Everyone has access to me. There's no hierarchy. It's more of a matrix environment, at least at this level. And then I tend to hire people at the management level that don't look like people that you would generally hire, and the reason is that there are two factors in order to be successful here at Tele911. You have to have that human component; to me, that's important. A lot of the people here...actually, I was sharing this with someone, but for the majority of my tenure here at Tele911, I was actually the youngest person at the company. I hire people with tenure and wisdom. But a lot of the types of people that I hire here are actually outside of the industry, people who can bring in those thought processes over to Tele911 across repeatability, monetization, and scalability. Some of them are from manufacturing. Some of them...it really does depend. But when I look around the team, and I'm like, wow, you know, we are a team of misfits, but we produce amazing results. I mean, Tele911 in the last year alone, 3x volume and 5x just billing. So, we understand that we are part of something unique, and people just bring their ideas into that and adapt to it. VICTORIA: Your approach, it sounds like, to play it back a little bit, is to find people who are smarter than you [laughs] about some things and then, yeah, really reach for wisdom and not fall into the same pattern that other organizations may be advised to follow to build their team because you have that insight into your market and your industry, and you can navigate what you need in order to scale. DR. LIZARDO: Yeah. Also, at Tele911, this is innovation. So, there's really nowhere else to look for talent who have done this before. So, we really have to outsource from different industries. You know that adaptability is key, but what I really look for is repeatability. Has this person been ingrained with figuring out the pieces that make it whole and basically integrating them into our process, repeatable, monetizable, and scalable? VICTORIA: Right. And maybe that answers my next question, but what core values drive your everyday decisions? DR. LIZARDO: As I said before, and I think I said it at the beginning of the call, people know me as a father and a husband. That's who I am, and above all, that's my number one job. So, that human component is so critical in order for you to succeed here. Life happens while you're at Tele911. Parents get sick; kids have the flu; like, life happens. And we have to understand that this is an empathetic environment. Someone in the management team had a baby today, and we were at a debrief meeting. And in the middle of a meeting, someone said, "The baby is here," [laughs] and everyone was rejoicing. If someone externally would have been in that meeting, they're like, "Who's baby, and why are we announcing it in the middle of a management meeting?" But, to us, is we function as a family, which is critical. Another value that we really stress here is integrity. Because we're part of innovation, we have to be very clear about our numbers and very clear about how we're achieving our traction [inaudible 18:24]. I'm not really interested in the goal. I'm more interested in the process, but be very, very clear. You have to be creative. You know, I spent some time studying quantitative methodology over at Harvard, and repeatability is important, but being able to think outside the box because, again, this has never been done before. So, you have to look at this from an angle of, like, the art of the impossible, and then go and try it. VICTORIA: Right, yeah. And I think it's really interesting, too, like, you know, when you think about making art or innovation, you can sometimes look and see how other people have done it. But then you have to decide what's your path. And, like, how do you solve for this particular problem? And, like, what can you learn from these [inaudible 19:08] this is the way you should or shouldn't do that; practice is really interesting, I think. DR. LIZARDO: You know what? And I think that's probably been the most exciting part about this. I've never been in a situation where there was nothing to look back to reference. Like this is the first time in history that this is going, and it's accelerated so fast. We don't have a, hey, this is what good looks like. We basically have us, and we've had to adapt to that. And along the way, what we've done is we've basically done basic, like, micro-moments of learning, adding on to those and saying, "Okay, this is what good looks like. But then what would great look like?" And I think that that's the example of...remember when I mentioned earlier, you know, it used to be 2 minutes, and 1 minute, you know, then 50 seconds, now 40 seconds. And we're like, "Hey, what if we could do 10 seconds where people press a button and get a board-certified doctor upon a 911 call?" And you're just like, yeah, that sounds impossible, but so did this idea now. So, we know the art of the impossible is just a few stone throws away as we continue to make traction. Mid-Roll Ad: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don’t have all year to do extended research. In just a few weeks, thoughtbot’s Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We’ll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts. Maximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint VICTORIA: You know, there's the impact for the person experiencing an emergency and having it be able to resolve within their home. It also opens up that possibility of remote work for doctors and nurses, which I'm sure you know more than me about the current state of the strain on our medical system and the people who are working in it and how you think about the impact on them as well. DR. LIZARDO: Just for context, my wife is a physician. And during COVID, we ended up having two kids, one right before and one during. And because of our–one–our parenting style but also our life choices, what we basically is we took turns at different points in order to stay home with our kids. But one of the things that, you know, have always bugged me is we saw every specialty practice virtually, but emergency medicine had to be practiced in the hospital. And unfortunately, because of that force and that strain in the system, less than 50% of the spots in emergency medicines were filled last year. People don't want to do it. So, what we did is we went out to a lot of these parents and said, "Hey, do you want to join this network where you're able to see patients while you take a nap virtually?" And they're like, "Whoa, let me try that." And, Victoria, within three weeks, dads and moms were showing up in droves with their babies to the interviews, saying, "This is what my life looks like. He takes a nap between 2:00 and 4:00. Can I grab a shift for those 2 hours?" And along the way, we ended up building the nation's largest virtual emergency medicine practice. Out of that pain point in us and just asking questions, we built this awesome system that now propels people to basically press a button and within 40 seconds, get a doctor. And I think that's the art of the impossible. We actually look at it and say, "Well, we could probably do something better on that." But we've also now reshaped emergency medicine to the point that now we're the ones that are writing the fellowship for virtual emergency medicine. We are now creating the protocols and our data now is in journals as, hey, this is what the specialty should look like, and this is what they're able to do. So, we're equally as excited about that and just on the outcome. And it's just a huge honor. VICTORIA: Wow, that's incredible that it would go in that direction, and you'd have this opportunity to really reshape an industry and define how even people learn how to perform emergency services and medicine. DR. LIZARDO: [laughs] You know what the most amazing thing is? It's actually a lot easier than what other specialties have done because cardiologists have been able to, you know, see patients virtually, but they can't do an EKG. But our team can because the medics are on-site within 8 to 10 minutes of that call, and they're able to do an EKG. They're able to do a pulse ox. They're able to even do an IV drip. So, it's actually a new way to practice emergency medicine, where the medic is your hands, eyes, ears, but the doctor's basically working in conjunction with them, guiding them to best do the assessment. VICTORIA: That's, like, such a revolutionary idea, and I think it's so cool. I'm curious: how do you perform user research and design for patients and for emergency responders? DR. LIZARDO: [laughs] That's a question that we're actually working through right now. So, emergency responders they actually all have an iPad or a computer on them when they show up at your house. But that looks a lot more like the Nokia phone, the blue phone from back in the day. There's very little interaction on that iPad. And what we've done is we've put an app that's dynamic that allows them to basically best assess the patient, understand their protocol. So, it actually has its enhancer experience. Also, remember, these medics are some of the smartest people on earth. I mean, they see patients more than doctors do. They know where they live. They know what their house looks like, and they've seen them thousands of times. So, what they're really good at is interacting with the iPad in a way that actually shows the surrounding, shows the patient, and shows what's important. When it comes to our doctors, particularly in emergency medicine, they've been dying to basically practice virtual emergency medicine. So, what we've done is we've basically provided the initial data set of what they need, along with a video. But now we're actually augmenting that with additional data sets that allow them just to have a more comprehensive picture of the patient, including some look back data, what happened before, what should be happening afterwards, integration with their health plan. They actually have more data and a better experience with practicing in their home than if they were at the hospital. VICTORIA: I appreciate that viewpoint. And I can understand how interesting it must be to design for those two different user personas. I'm curious; you mentioned data. What's your strategy around data privacy, and protection, and security in your application when you're at the same time trying to be very innovative and move very quickly? DR. LIZARDO: Well, you know, I've always believed data is on a need-to-know basis, particularly because we're dealing with PHI. We're dealing with clinical data. I always tell people it's one thing for someone to walk into a hospital and tell you their name, last name, phone numbers. It's a whole other thing for you to go to their home and start gathering information. So, that is basically one of our key standards here. We understand the gravity of the data that we're collecting and how critical it is, not only to health plans, health systems, but, above all, the member and how that privacy should be kept. And it's such a critical component to the company. As we continue to grow and mature, we've added additional layers in order to best protect the company–but above all, best protect the member in situations like this. VICTORIA: Yeah, well, I appreciate that viewpoint. And starting, you know, probably your background as a consultant and also working as a doctor, you have a really deep understanding of the type of data you're dealing with and how sensitive it is. So, I appreciate that that's a priority for you within the company. What is the wind in your sails? What keeps you going? What keeps you committed to doing this work? DR. LIZARDO: So, at this point, we are reshaping an entire history. We're literally going in the books now. So, now we can't stop this. I remember going through medical school and reading through some books. I was joining part of a community of doctors. Now, I'm rewriting and creating a new version of how this entire industry is being practiced. And understanding the gravity of such a monumental place in society that keeps me going. We can't stop it now. And that, to me, is what's monumental in all of this. VICTORIA: That's great. So, it's that big overall vision of the impact you're making on not just a few people, a few million people, but really the whole industry and for many years to come. DR LIZARDO: Exactly. Exactly. So, just so you know, for example, our patients aren't just...we don't just do emergency medicine. Some of our patients have psychiatric needs, and some of our patients have, you know, oncological needs. So, we are actually the largest lead generator of patients into the right system for the United States because we're capturing them at the 911 call. So, there are so many great companies out there, and their number one problem is not how to solve for the things that they build; it's who's going to use it. How do you find more customers to actually use it? And what a lot of these companies have realized is, hey, we've been trying to find these people for years, and yet they're walking into Tele911's front door. How do we partner up with them, and how do we basically show Tele911 the services that differentiate us in order for them to walk the patients towards us? VICTORIA: That's such a cool stat to have that you're really putting people into the right path. And you have these great things that you all have achieved. I wonder, do you write key objectives and results? Because some of those it sounds like, well, I don't know you would ever be able to dream up that result [laughs], right? DR. LIZARDO: Yeah. Well, yeah, we do function. We actually have a KPI doc that we use. We all track, and everyone at the company has visibility into them. It's super critical for everyone to be aligned no matter the level for that. I always say KPIs should not be unachievable, but they should be a stretch. Tele911 expects to grow 10x on its second year; very, very, very few companies in the history of digital health have grown 10x. And we are not only with foresight of, like, how we're going to achieve that; we're actually executing on a trajectory for that 10x. That's a dangerous number to say for me as a CEO. And I look at the KPIs, and I'm like, well, we did 5x last year and cut almost a million in operating costs, so we can do 10x this year. Any consultant outside would be like, "Yeah, that's crazy," and then they look at our model, and they're like, "Yeah, these people might be crazy enough to actually do it [laughs]." VICTORIA: Well, that's great. I mean, and, I guess, it's, like, all about how do you picture it? Like, are you trying to make a goal that gets everyone excited and gets everyone motivated and dreaming of the art of the possible, or are you just trying to make it so that you can check it off at the end of the year [laughs], right? DR. LIZARDO: No. Actually, checking things off is...listen, at the end of the year, we're looking at the following year's list, right? We're not just checking things off. What we're doing is, we understand our mission, and because of our mission, what we're saying is, how aligned with our mission are we? I don't know if that's a circle or a checkpoint, but it's more about alignment for that mission of democratizing access to the best care as fast as possible upon a 911 call. VICTORIA: I love that. That makes a lot of sense to me, just bringing it all back to the mission and the impact and why we're all here in the first place, right? DR. LIZARDO: Exactly. VICTORIA: I love that. Wonderful. Do you have any questions for me? DR. LIZARDO: No. I mean, it was excellent to, one, just to be able to connect with you, two, to be...actually, as I was talking through these questions with you, you know, I realized how...just for context, my favorite author is Walter Isaacson. If you ever have the chance, please read one of his books. I'm reading Benjamin Franklin, and I read Steve Jobs' book. There's actually a few books. My favorite book in the whole world is Da Vinci by Walter Isaacson. And, you know, I hope that people listening to this they can do two things. One, they can get to know me just a little bit and the things that we're doing, but two, they can be inspired because I think that's what we really need. There's a lot of people starting companies just because someone's doing something they could do it better. I mean, that's cool and all, but just so you know, most of those things actually fail. There's a reason why 9 out of 10 companies actually fail today. We don't need more copycats. Think of the art of the impossible and create that, and then pursue it as if nothing's holding you back. And if you do so, you just might find yourself with a Tele911 company. VICTORIA: Well, that gets me fired up. I'm excited. I really love that advice. I appreciate you sharing that with us. Is there anything else that you would like to promote today? DR. LIZARDO: Yes. If I could just take a second to share about this, I know that a lot of people who listen to this podcast want to start companies. A lot of people are trying to figure out, how do I get my idea started? But I also realized a lot of these people really haven't written down their ideas. They're basically pursuing things that haven't really been written down. And one of the things that I shared, if we go back to this podcast, I said, this idea was written on the back of a greasy napkin in South Carolina during a storm at a Bojangles. I literally recall seasoned fries, dipping it in the grease of the chicken, which is terrible for you, by the way, cleaning my hands, and writing on the back: What if people call 911 and this and this and this happened? And if I could leave you with one thing is, please write your ideas down. Send me photos of your napkins [chuckles], like, share napkins with people on a plane, people on a train, share these ideas, write them down. Because the ideas that write them down basically have an opportunity to go back and reestablish, to modify. But one of the things that I know is these ideas eventually echo in eternity at one place or another. And when I leave, just with an encouragement, please just write your ideas down. VICTORIA: Great advice. I really appreciate that. You know, everything in moderation. I'm not going to say fried chicken or fries is bad for you [laughter] because I like it. DR. LIZARDO: [laughs] VICTORIA: But yeah, no, thank you so much. I loved sharing with that and, hopefully, people will share your ideas. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. And you can find me on X, formerly known as Twitter, @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at [email protected] with any questions.

Host Victoria Guido sits down with Steven Plappert, CEO of Forecastr, an online software designed to aid founders in financial modeling, which was born to help non-finance savvy founders understand and communicate their company's financial health. Despite the pandemic beginning right after Forecastr's launch in 2020, the company didn't pivot significantly thanks to extensive preparation and customer discovery before the launch. Steven delves into the operational and strategic aspects of Forecastr, highlighting the importance of balancing growth with financial sustainability, a consistent theme in their business strategy. Forecastr's significant development was integrating a strong human element into their software service, a move very well-received by their customers. Steven also outlines the company's key objectives, including cultivating a solid culture, achieving profitability, and exploring opportunities for exponential growth. Additionally, Steven discusses the importance of work-life balance, reflecting on his previous startup experience and emphasizing the necessity of balance for longevity and effectiveness in entrepreneurship. Victoria and Steven further explore how companies, including Forecastr and thoughtbot, incorporate these philosophies into their operations and culture. Forecastr (https://www.forecastr.co/) Follow Forecastr on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/forecastr/), X (https://twitter.com/forecastr), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/forecastrco/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/ForecastrHQ), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/forecastr), or TikTok (https://www.tiktok.com/@forecastrco). Follow Steven Plappert on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/steven-plappert-59477b3b/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant R¬obots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Steven Plappert, CEO of Forecastr, an online software that helps founders who hate building financial models in Excel actually understand their numbers, predict runway, and get funded. Steven, thank you for joining us. STEVEN: Hey, yeah, Victoria, thanks for having me. I'm stoked to be here. What's up, guys? VICTORIA: Just to get us warmed up here a little bit, can you tell me what's going on in your world? STEVEN: Well, you know, what is going on in my world? I had a great year last year, very healthy. I have a loving fiancé, and I'm getting married this year, which is going to be super fun. And, obviously, running a business, which takes up more than its fair share of my life. But yeah, it's early Jan, so I've been kind of reflecting on my life, and I got a lot to be grateful for, Victoria, I really do. VICTORIA: That's wonderful. You know, I used to work with a VP of strategic growth who likened forming partnerships with companies as getting into a marriage and building that relationship and that level of trust and communication that you have, which I think is really interesting. STEVEN: Oh, for sure. Emily always, Emily is my fiancé, she always says that, you know, Forecastr is essentially my mistress, if you will, you know what I mean? Because, like, that's [laughs] where the rest of my time goes, isn't it? Between hanging out with her and working on the company, you know, so... VICTORIA: So, how long have you been in a relationship with your business around Forecastr? [laughs] STEVEN: Yeah, right? Yeah [laughs]. Four years with this one. So, you know, we started it actually January 1st of 2020, going into the pandemic, although we didn't know it at the time. And so, we just celebrated our four-year anniversary a few weeks ago. VICTORIA: Well, that's really exciting. So, I'm curious about when you started Forecastr, what was the essential problem that you were trying to solve that you had identified in the market? STEVEN: I'd say the main problem we were trying to solve is that, like, specifically founders, you know, startup founders, really struggle to get, like, a clear picture of their financial health or, like, just the financial aspect of their business. And then they also struggle to communicate that to investors because most founders aren't finance people. You know, like, most people that start a company they don't do it because they're excellent in even, like, business or finance or anything like that. They usually do it because, like, they've identified some problem; they've lived it; they've breathed it, you know what I mean? They're some kind of subject matter expert. They may be good at sales, or marketing, or product. But a lot of times, finance is, like, a weak part for them, you know, it's not something that they're strong in. And so, they really have a hard time, like, understanding the viability of the business and communicating the financial outcome of the company to investors and stuff like that. And my co-founder Logan and I live that because all we did all day was built financial models in Excel for startup founders working for a CFO shop called Venture First. So, that's what we really saw. We really saw that just, you know, it's really hard for folks to get this clear picture. And we thought a big part of that, at least, was just the fact that, you know, there's no great software for it. It was just like, people are using Excel, which, you know, for people that are great in finance, you know, works but for most people, doesn't. And so, yeah, I think that that's what kind of inspired Logan and I to fly the coop there at Venture First and start a company. VICTORIA: No, that's really interesting. So, you found this problem. You knew that this was an issue for founders, and you built this hypothesis and started it. I think you said, like, right before 2020, right before the pandemic. So, were there any decisions you made that once you got more information or once you got started, you decided to pivot? And, like, what were those pivot points for you early on? STEVEN: There wasn't a lot of pivoting early on, I will say. And a part of that is because, like, this isn't my first company. I started a company right out of college back in 2013 called FantasyHub. In that company, we pivoted a lot and, largely because we didn't really put a lot of forethought into that company when we launched it, you know, we didn't do any customer discovery. We just launched the company. And then we skinned our knees a bunch of times [laughs] as we scaled that company up and had to change gears a lot of times. In Forecastr, you know, we had actually been kind of building towards starting the company for 18 months. So, Logan and I actually had the idea originally in middle of 2018. And we decided at that time, look, like, we're not going to go launch this company right away because we got full-time jobs, and we might as well de-risk it. So, we spent about 12 to 18 months just doing a lot of customer discovery, kind of in stealth mode while at Venture First. After about six months, we brought it up to Venture First and said, "Hey, here's this idea for a company we have. We want to go do it." You know, to Venture First's credit, you know, rather than viewing that territorially and saying, "Hey, you know, there's a great new product line for our company," they really inspired us to go forward with it. They said, "Hey, this is great. We want to support you guys." They put some money in. We did some more discovery. We built a prototype. So, long-winded way of saying that by the time we actually got to the starting line in 2020, you know, we had 18 months' worth of really clear thought put into this thing. And we had been building in this space for years, you know, building financial models and Excel for founders. So, I think we had a great understanding of the customer. We had a great understanding of the market and the needs. We'd done our diligence in terms of distribution and figuring out how we wanted to generate, you know, a good, healthy funnel for the business. And so, it was really just kind of a matter of execution at that point. And, you know, here we are four years in, and there really hasn't been anything that we've done that's really pivoted the business that much across those four years, except for one moment, which was actually six months ago. So, in July of 2023, we did finally have our first kind of pivot moment where one of the interesting things about Forecastr versus some other solutions in the market is that we're not just a product, just a SaaS platform. There's a real strong human layer to our solution. We've always felt like a SaaS plus human model was the right model for financial modeling for startups because a lot of these startup founders don't have finance expertise on staff or inherently. And about six months ago, it wasn't as much of a pivot as it was a double down. You know, we really doubled down on that human element, you know, and now that human element isn't just through, like, a white glove onboarding and some email support. But we actually do give our customers an analyst in addition to the software that's with them for the lifetime of their subscription and is with them every step of the way. And so, that's the only time that we really made, like, a significant change into what we were doing. And it was just, I think, off the back of three years of saying, "Hey, like [chuckles], people really love the human element, you know, let's lean into that." VICTORIA: I love that you saw that you couldn't solve this problem with just technology and that you planned for and grew the people element as well. And I'm curious: what other decisions did you have to make as you were growing the business, how to scale the tech side or the people side? STEVEN: So many decisions, right? And that's why I tell people all the time, I'm like, you know, I've been a founder for 11 years now. And, in my opinion, by far, the hardest part about being a founder is that all day, every day, you have to make a bunch of decisions. And you hardly ever have enough data to, like, know, you're making the right decision. So, you got to make a bunch of judgment calls, and ultimately, these are judgment calls that could make or break your company. And it's really taxing. It's taxing on the mind. It's stressful, you know. It is not easy. So, you know, I think it's one of the really hard things about being an entrepreneur. I would say one of the most consistent decisions that we've had to make at the highest level is decisions around kind of capital preservation, fiscal responsibility, and investing in the growth. So, categorically, it's like, on the one hand, you have a desire to build the company kind of sustainably, to get to profitability, to have a healthy working model, you know, where you have some real staying power, you know. And that line of thinking leads you to, you know, be conscientious about investments that you're making that, you know, increase the burn. On the other hand, you have a desire to grow the company very quickly. You know, you have certain benchmarks you need to meet, you know, in order to be attractive to venture capitalists. And so, you have decisions that you want to make, you know, to invest in that growth. And so, I think that's a very consistent theme that's played out across the four years is Logan and I trying to walk that tightrope between growing 2 to 3X year over year and being really mindful of the company's burn, you know, both for equity preservation and just to build the company in a more sustainable way. And I think as financial professionals and founders, the finance person in Logan and I a lot of times wants to be more conservative. The founder in Logan and I, a lot of times, wants to be more aggressive. And so, we kind of just, like, let those two forces kind of play themselves out. And I think it creates, like, a nice, healthy tension. VICTORIA: That is really interesting, yeah. And sometimes you have to make a guess [chuckles] and go with it and then see the results of what happens. So, you're a financial forecasting company. What kind of, like, key results or objectives are you working towards this year with Forecastr? STEVEN: Yeah, great question. So, we're really mindful of this kind of stuff. I'd say, you know, it's something that we really consider at a deep level is, like, you have to ultimately set objectives, which are very aligning and clarifying, you know, at an executive level, and then those should kind of filter all the way down through the organization. Because so much, I think, of building a company is you have to kind of punch above your weight. You have to grow faster than [chuckles] the resources that you're putting into it might expect or whatever. I mean, you have limited resources, limited time, but you got to go really quickly. I think alignment is a big part of that, and that starts with setting clear objectives. So, we actually have three very clear objectives, really four. The first one is living up to our cultural values. You know, we're a culture-first organization. We believe that, like, culture, you know, kind of eats strategy for breakfast, that age-old kind of cliché, but it's true. It's just like, I think, you know, if you build a really good culture, people are just...they're happier. They're more productive. You get more done. So, that is our number one strategic objective. Number two is to become profitable. Like I mentioned, we want to become profitable. We want to build a sustainable company. So, by setting that objective, it kind of forces us to be conscientious about spend and only invest in areas that we think is, like, a one plus one equals three. Our third strategic objective is reach 5 million in annual recurring revenue by the end of the year. We're at 2.4 right now. We want to at least double year over year. That's kind of, like, the minimum threshold to keep playing the venture game. And then number four is unlock exponential growth opportunities. So, we definitely adopt the philosophy of, like, hey, we've got a model. It's working. We've got 700 customers, you know, we've got two and a half million in annual recurring revenue. So, like, 80% of our focus should be on becoming profitable and hitting $5 million in annual recurring revenue. Like, that's, like, the bread and butter there, just keep doing what's working. But 20% of our attention should be paid to, well, what could we be doing to, like, triple down on that, you know, to really start to create an exponential growth curve? And, for us, that stuff and, like, kind of the data in investor space, like, there's a lot of interesting things that we could do, of course, as long as it's consensual, anonymized, et cetera, safe and secure, you know, with the kind of data that we have on private companies, you know, anonymously benchmarking companies against their peers, things like that. And I think there's a really big opportunity that we have to serve investors as well, you know, and to create a better investor experience when it comes to financial reporting, also something that we think can unlock exponential growth. So, those are the four objectives that we have going into this year. VICTORIA: Well, I really appreciate that you had culture at number one, and it reminds me, you know, you said it's old adage, but it's true, and you can verify that in reports like the State of DevOps Report. The number one indicator of a high-security environment is the level of trust and culture that you have within your company, not necessarily the technology or tools that you're using. So, being a financial company, I think you're in a good position [chuckles] to have, like, you know, protect all those assets and protect your data. And yeah, I'm curious to hear more about what you said about just unlocking, like, exponential growth. It's hard to keep both the let's keep the lights on and keep running with what we have, and make room for these bigger strategic initiatives that are really going to help us grow as a company and be more sustainable over time. So, how do you make room for both of those things in a limited team? STEVEN: Yeah, it's a great question. And it's not easy, I would say. I mean, I think the way we make room for it probably on the frontend is just, like, being intentional about creating that space. I mean, ultimately, putting unlocking exponential growth opportunities on the strategic company roadmap, which is the document that kind of memorializes the four objectives that I just went through, that creates space inherently. It's one of four objectives on the board. And that's not just, like, a resource that sits, you know, in a folder somewhere. We use the OKR system, you know, which is a system for setting quarterly objectives and things like that. And these strategic objectives they make it on our OKR board, which filters down into our work. So, I think a big piece of creating the space is just as an executive and as a leader, you know, being intentional about [chuckles] putting it on the board and creating that space. The thing that you have to do, though, to be mindful is you have to make sure that you don't get carried away with it. I mean, like you said, at the end of the day, succeeding in a business requires a proper balancing of short-term and long-term priorities. You know, if you're focused too much on the short term, you know, you can kind of hamstring yourself in the long run. Yeah, maybe you build, like, a decent business, but you don't quite, you know, reach your highest potential because you're not investing in some of those things that take a while to develop and come to play in the long run. But if you're too focused on the long run, which is what these exponential opportunities really are, you know, it's very easy to lose your way [laughs] in the short term, and it's very easy to die along the way. You know, I do think of startups as much of a game of survival as anything. I always say survive until you thrive. And so, that's where the 80/20 comes in, you know, where we just kind of say, "Hey, look, like, 80% of our time and energy needs to be devoted to kind of short-term and less risky priorities, such as doubling down on what's already working. 20% of our time, thereabouts, can be devoted to some of these more long-term strategic objectives, like unlocking exponential growth. And I think it just takes a certain mindfulness and a certain intentionality to, like, every week when you're organizing your calendar, and you're, like, talking with your team and stuff like that, you're just always trying to make sure, hey, am I roughly fitting into that framework, you know? And it doesn't have to be exact. Some weeks, it may be more or less. But I think that's kind of how we approach it, you know, conceptually. VICTORIA: Oh, what a great perspective. I think that I really like hearing those words about, like, balance and, like, being intentional. MID-ROLL AD: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build, and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Liftoff brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow today. Get in touch at thoughtbot.com/liftoff. VICTORIA: You mentioned earlier that you're getting married, so, like, maybe you can talk about how are you intentional with your own time and balancing your personal life and making room for these, you know, big life changes while dealing with also the stress of being in kind of a survivor mode with the company. STEVEN: Like I mentioned, this is my second company, and Emily, bless her heart, my fiancé, she's been with me my entire entrepreneurial career. We started dating the first month that I started my first company, FantasyHub. And in that company, I ran that company for three years. We took it through Techstars down in Austin. It was a consumer gaming company. Interesting company. It ended up being a failure but, like, super interesting and set me on my path. Yeah, I was a complete and total workaholic. I worked around the clock. It was a fantasy sports company, so weekends were our big time, and I worked seven days a week. I worked, like, a lot of 80-hour-plus weeks. And, you know, looking back on it, it was a lot of fun, but it was also miserable. And I also burned out, you know, about six months before the company failed. And had the company not failed when it did, you know, I don't know what the future would have held for us. I was really out of balance. You know, I had deprioritized physical health. I hadn't worked out in years. I wasn't healthy. I had deprioritized mental health. Emily almost left me as a part of that company because I wasn't giving her any attention. And so, you know, when that company failed, and I was left with nothing, you know, and I just was kind of, like, sitting there licking my wounds [laughs], you know, in my childhood bedroom at my parents' house, you know, I was like, you know what? Like, I don't know that that was really worth it, and I don't know that that was the right approach. And I kind of vowed...in that moment, I was like, you know, look, I'm a startup founder. I love building these companies, so I'm, like, definitely going to do it again, but I'm not going to give it my entire life. Like, regardless of your religious beliefs, like, we at least have one life to live. And in my opinion, there's a lot more to life than [chuckles] just cranking out work and building companies. Like, there's a whole world to explore, you know, and there's lots of things that I'm interested in. So, this time around, I'm very thoughtful about creating that balance in my life. I set hard guidelines. There's hard, like, guardrails, I guess I should say, when I start and end work, you know, and I really hold myself accountable to that. Emily holds me accountable to that. And I make sure that, like, I work really hard when I'm at work, but I take the mask off, you know, so to speak, when I'm at home. And I just kind of...I don't deprioritize the rest of my life like I did when I was running FantasyHub. So, I think it's super important. I think it's a marathon building companies. I think you got to do that. I think it's what's in the best interest of the company and you as an individual. So, I think it's something I do a lot better this time around. And I think we're all better off for it, not the least of which is, like, one of our six cultural values is live with balance, and that's why. You know, because, like, we adopt the philosophy that you don't have to work yourself to death to build a great company. You can build a great company working a pretty reasonable workload, you know what I mean? It's not easy. It is kind of a pressure cooker trying to get that much done in that little time, but I think we're living proof that it works. VICTORIA: And if you don't make time to rest, then your ability to make good decisions and build high-quality products really starts to suffer eventually, like, I think, is what you saw at the end there. So, I really appreciate you sharing that and that personal experience. And I'm glad to see the learning from that, and making sure that's a core part of your company values the next time you start a company makes a lot of sense to me. STEVEN: Yeah, totally, you know, yeah. And I've always remembered, although this might be an extreme and a privileged extreme, but, you know, J.P. Morgan, the person, was famous for saying, "I get more done in 9 months than I get in 12," in relationship to the fact that he would take his family over to Europe for, like, three months of the year and, like, summer in Europe and not work. And so, while that's probably an unrealistic, you know, ideal for a startup founder, there's some truth to it, you know what I mean? Like you said, like, you got to rest. And, in fact, if you rest more, you know, yeah, you might be working less hours. You'll actually get more done. You're a lot clearer while you're at work. It's a mindset game. It's a headspace game. And the better you can put yourself in that good mindset, that good headspace, the more effective you are. Yeah, there's just a lot of wisdom to that approach. VICTORIA: Right. And, you know, thoughtbot is a global company, so we have employees all over the world. And I think what's interesting about U.S-based companies, I'm interested in how Forecastr might even help you with this, is that when you start a company, you basically form, like, a mini-government for your employees. And you have input over to how much they paid, how much healthcare they get. You have input over their hours and how much leave and everything. And so, trying to balance all those costs and create a good environment for your employees and make sure they have enough time for rest and for personal care. How does Forecastr kind of help you also imagine all of those costs [laughs] and make sense of what you can offer as a company? STEVEN: I would say the main way that we help folks do that, and we really do play in that space, is just by giving you a clear picture of what the future holds for your company from a financial perspective. I mean, it's one of the things that I think is such a superpower when it comes to financial modeling, you know, it can really help you make better decisions along these lines because, like, what does a financial model do? A financial model just simulates your business into the future, specifically anything related to the cash flow of your business, you know, cash in, cash out, revenue expenses, and the like. And so, your people are in there, and what they're paid is in there and, you know, your revenue and your expenses, your cash flow, your runway, all that's in the model. One of the things I feel like we do really help people do is just get a clearer picture of like, hey, what do the next 3, 6, 12, you know, 24 months look like for my company? What is my runway? When am I going to run out of money? What do I need to do about that? Can I afford to give everybody a raise, or can I afford to max out my benefits plan or whatever that is? It's like, you can make those assessments more easily. You know, if you have a financial model that actually makes sense to you that you can look at and say, oh, okay, cool. Yeah, I can offer that, like, Rolls Royce benefits plan and still have 18 months' worth of runway, or maybe I can't [laughs]. And I have to say, "Sorry, guys, you know, like, we're cash-constrained, and this is all we can do for now. But maybe when we raise that next round and when we hit these growth milestones, you know, we can expand that." So yeah, I think it's all, for us, about just, like, helping founders make better decisions, whether they be your decisions around employees and benefits, et cetera, or growth, or fundraising, you know, through the power of, like, financial health and hygiene. VICTORIA: Great. Thank you. I appreciate you letting me bring it all the way back [laughs]. Yeah, let me see. Let me go through my list of questions and see what else we have here. Do you have any questions for me or thoughtbot? STEVEN: Yeah. I mean, so, like, how do you guys think about this kind of stuff? Like, you know, you said thoughtbot's a global company at this point, but the name would imply, you know, a very thoughtful one. So, I'd be curious in y'alls kind of approach to just, like, culture and balance and some of these things that we're talking about kind of, like, straddling that line, you know, between, like, working really hard, which you have to do to build a great company but, you know, being mindful of everything else that life has to offer. VICTORIA: Yeah. Well, I think thoughtbot, more than any other company I've ever worked for, really emphasizes the value of just, like, people really want you to have a work-life balance and to be able to take time off. And, you know, I think that for a company that does consulting and we're delivering at a certain quality, that means that we're delivering at the quality where if someone needs to take a week off for a vacation, there's enough documentation; there's enough backup support for that service to not be impacted. So, that gives us confidence to be able to take the time off [chuckles], and it also just ends up being a better product for our clients. Like, our team needs to be well-rested. They need to have time to invest in themselves and learning the latest technology, the latest upgrades, contributing to open source, and writing about the problems they're seeing, and contributing back to the community. So, we actually make time every Friday to spend on those types of projects. It's kind of like you were saying before, like, you get as much done in four days as many companies get in five because that time is very highly focused. And then you're getting the benefit of, you know, continually investing in new skills and making sure the people you're working with are at the level that you're paying for [laughs]. STEVEN: Yeah, right. No, that's super cool. That's super cool. VICTORIA: Yeah, and, actually, so we're all remote. We're a fully remote company, and we do offer some in-person events twice a year, so that's been a lot of fun for me. And also, getting to, like, go to conferences like RubyConf and RailsConf and meeting the community has been fantastic. Yeah, you have a lot of value of self-management. So, you have the ability to really adjust your schedule and communicate and work with what meets your needs. It's been really great. STEVEN: Yeah, I love that, too. And we're also a remote company, and I think getting together in person, like you just talked about it, is so important. We can only afford to do it once a year right now as an earlier-stage company. But as amazing as, you know, Zoom and things like this are, it's like, there's not really a perfect replacement for that in-person experience, you know. VICTORIA: I agree, and I also agree that, like, once a year is probably enough [laughter]. That's a great amount of time. Like, it really does help because there are so many ways to build relationships remotely, but sometimes, at least just meeting in person once is enough to be like, oh yeah, like, you build a stronger connection, and I think that's great. Okay. Let me see. What other questions do we have? Final question: is there anything else that you would like to promote? STEVEN: I guess it's my job to say we are a really awesome financial modeling platform and team in general. So, if you are a startup founder or you know a startup founder out there that just could use some help with their financial model, you know, it is definitely something that we'd love to do. And we do a ton of education and a ton of help. We've got a ton of resources that are even freely available as well. So, our role in the market is just to get out there and help folks build great financial models, whether that be on Forecastr or otherwise, and that's kind of the approach that we take to it. And our philosophy is like, if we can get out there and do that, you know, if we can be kind of the go-to resource for folks to build great models regardless, you know, of what that means for them, a rising tide will float all boats, and our boat the most of which, hopefully. So [laughs], if you need a model, I'm your guy. VICTORIA: Thank you so much for sharing that. And I have a fun question for you at the end. What is your favorite hike that you've been on in the last three years or ever, however long you want to go back? [laughs] STEVEN: Well, I would say, you know, I did have the great pleasure this year of returning to the Appalachian Trail to hike the Roan Highlands with a friend of mine who was doing a thru-hike. So, a friend of mine did a southbound thru-hike on the A.T. this year, went from Maine to Georgia. Good friend of mine. And I had not been on the Appalachian Trail since I did a thru-hike in 2017. So, I had not returned to the trail or to that whole community. It's just a very special community. It really is a group of, like, really awesome, eclectic people. And so, yeah, this last year, I got to go down to the Roan Highlands in Tennessee. It's a beautiful, beautiful area of Tennessee and in the Southeast, rolling hills and that kind of thing. And hike, for him, for, like, three or four days and just be a part of his journey. Had a ton of fun, met some awesome people, you know, great nature, and totally destroyed my body because I was not prepared to return to the grueling nature of the Appalachian Trail. So yeah, I'd have to say that one, Victoria. I'd have to say that was my favorite in the last couple of years for sure. VICTORIA: Yeah, it's beautiful there. I've hiked certain parts of it. So, I've heard that obviously the Appalachian Trail, which is the eastern side of the United States, was the earlier trail that was developed because of the dislocation of people over time and that they would create the trail by getting to a peak and then looking to another peak and being like, "Okay, that's where I'm going to go." So, when you say it's grueling, I was, like, a lot of up and down hills. And then what I've heard is that the Pacific Trail on the western part of the United States, they did more of figuring out how to get from place to place with minimizing the elevation change, and so it's a much more, like, sustainable hike. Have you ever heard that? STEVEN: Oh yeah, that is 100% true. In terms of, like, the absolute change in elevation, not, like, the highest elevation and the lowest, just, like, the change up and down, there's twice as much going up and down on the A.T. as there is on the Pacific Crest Trail. And the Pacific Crest Trail is graded for park animals, so it never gets steeper than, like, a 15% grade. So, it's real groovy, you know, on the PCT where you can just get into a groove, and you can just hike and hike and hike and hike for hours, you know, versus the A.T. where you're going straight up, straight down, straight up, straight down, a lot of big movements, very exhausting. I've hiked a good chunk of the PCT and then, obviously, the whole A.T., so I can attest, yes, that is absolutely true. VICTORIA: I feel like there's an analogy behind that and what Forecastr does for you. Like, you'll be able [laughs] to, like, smooth out your hills a little bit more [laughs] with your finances, yeah. STEVEN: [laughs] Oh, I love that. Absolutely. Well, and I've honestly, like, I've often likened, you know, building a company and hiking the Appalachian Trail because it is one of those things where one of the most clarifying things about hiking a long trail is you just have this one monster goal that's, you know, that's months and months ahead of you. But you just got to get up every day, and you just got to grind it out. And every day is grindy, and it's hard, you know, but every day you just get one step closer to this goal. And it's one of the cool things about a trail is that you kind of steep yourself in that one goal, you know, one-track mind. And, you know, like we were saying earlier, there's so much more to life. So, you can't and probably shouldn't do that with your startup. You should continue to invest in other aspects of your life. But maybe while you're within the four walls of your office or when you open up that laptop and get to work on your computer, you know, if you take that kind of similar approach where you got this big goal that's, you know, months or years away but every day you just got to grind it out; you just got to work hard; you got to do what you can to get 1 step closer. And, you know, one day you'll wake up and you'll be like, oh shit, like, I'm [laughs] pretty close, you know what I mean? Yeah, I think there's definitely some similarities to the two experiences. VICTORIA: I appreciate that, yeah. And my team is actually it's more like starting up a business within thoughtbot. So, I'm putting together, like, my three-year plan. It's very exciting. And I think, like, those are the types of things you want to have. It's the high-level goal. Where are we going? [chuckles] Are we on our track to get there? But then day to day, it's like, okay, like, let's get these little actions done that we need to do this week [laughs] to build towards that ultimate goal. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Steven. I really enjoyed our conversation. Is there anything final you want to say? STEVEN: I just want to thank you, Victoria. I think it's a wonderful podcast that you guys put on, and I really appreciate the opportunity to be here and to chat with you. You're lovely to talk to. I enjoyed the conversation as well, and I hope everyone out there did, also. So, let's make it a great 2024. VICTORIA: Thank you so much. Yeah, this is actually my second podcast recording of the year, so very exciting for me. I appreciate it. Thanks so much for joining again. So, you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected]. And you can find me on X, formerly known as Twitter, @victori_ousg. And this podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at [email protected] with any questions.

Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido are joined by Wes Bos, a full-stack developer, course creator, and podcaster. Wes shares his web development journey, from blogging and creating a successful book on Sublime Text to developing his popular online courses and hosting the Syntax podcast. He talks about the spontaneous start of his teaching career, his approach to creating content that is both approachable and practical, and the importance of making web development accessible to all learners. Wes discusses the evolution of his career, detailing his experiences in teaching at Ladies Learning Code and HackerYou and how he transitioned into selling online courses. He emphasizes the significance of offering quality content in his free and paid courses, ensuring his teachings are relatable and helpful for real-world applications. Wes also delves into the technical aspects of managing his course platform, discussing the benefits of having complete control over his content and the challenges he faces, such as content theft and logistical issues in distributing his popular sticker packs. The conversation shifts to the role of AI in web development, where Wes highlights its impact on coding efficiency and the need for developers to adapt to AI integration in applications. He advises beginners in web development to be wary of over-relying on AI, emphasizing the importance of understanding the fundamentals of coding. The episode concludes with Wes offering advice for content creators in the tech space, stressing the importance of sharing knowledge and its positive impact on the community. He encourages listeners to stay passionate and continuously learn in the ever-evolving field of web development. Wes' Online Courses (https://wesbos.com/courses) Sublime Text Power User Book (https://wesbos.com/sublime-text-book) Syntax Podcast (https://syntax.fm/) Ladies Learning Code (https://www.canadalearningcode.ca/) HackerYou (Now Juno College) (https://junocollege.com/) Follow Wes Bos on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/wesbos/) or X (https://twitter.com/wesbos). Visit his website: wesbos.com (https://wesbos.com/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giants Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Wes Bos, a Full-Stack Developer, Coursemaker, and Podcaster. Wes, thank you for joining us. WES: Thanks for having me; stoked to be here. VICTORIA: Can you tell me, you know, on top of all of these skills that you have, podcasting, you're making courses; you're also doing development full-time; I heard that you've also picked up a new hobby in making stickers and, like, designing merch for aligning with some of your marketing goals. WES: Yeah. All right. So, my name is Wes Bos. I'm a full-stack developer from Canada, and I do primarily two things: I make web development training courses, and I have a podcast called Syntax in which we release three episodes a week and talk about everything related to HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Node, just web development and things that surround it. WILL: I want to see how you started in those courses. I know a little bit about your story because I remember when I first started in development. I think it's gotten a little better, but I was the only junior at one of the first companies I started at. And I went through a bootcamp and then became a junior. And I was like, how do I develop? Like, how do I get better? And they were like, "Wes Bos, his course. WES: [laughs] WILL: Go to Wes Bos." [laughs] And so, I did that, and it helped me tremendously. But it's interesting. I just want to see how you started. I know some of your background with ladies who code, and I think HackerYou. So yeah, wherever you want to start, bring us into the beginning of Wes Bos. WES: So, I've been a web developer forever, a good chunk of my life. And back in, like, the blogging days, I was doing a lot of posting blog posts and whatnot. And I had a couple of the blog posts do super well. And back in the day, it was like, you get tons of traffic, and you try to, like, seize the moment. Like, oh, there's, like, 50, 000 people on my website right now. Like, how do I, like, take advantage of that? So, what I did was I threw up a quick, little...it was a blog post about Sublime Text, which was the hot, new editor at the time. And I threw up a little thing. I'm like, I'm writing a book about Sublime Text. And I threw up a little sign-up where people could pop their email in and hear a little bit more about it. And I got, like, 2,000 signups for that in a matter of a couple of days. And I thought like, oh, all right, well, now I got to make this thing, you know, like, I just [chuckles] I didn't have any plans to make it. I had kind of been going around in my head, but I decided to write the book. And then as part of the book, I gave a bunch of videos, and I realized I liked the video part a lot better. And it makes a lot of sense to show people what you are doing when you're talking about code and code-related things. So, I came out with a bunch of videos for that as well. People loved the videos, and I thought, oh, let's just keep doing this. So, I made a bunch of free courses, a bunch of paid courses. And kind of at the same time as well, I was teaching at this thing called Ladies Learning Code, which kind of transitioned into a bootcamp that I did the initial content for, which was called HackerYou. And, like, people kept giving me the same feedback into like, I'm not a traditional teacher. I'm just a web developer that has learned on his own and figured things out. And a lot of people said, like, " I really like the way that you explain things. Like, it makes so much sense the way that you explain it." And I figured out that, at least for some people, they really like the way that I explain something, and I will continue to do that. So, that's pretty much how I got into it. It's just explaining how it works in my head, putting it onto video, and putting it out there for web developers to learn from. WILL: Yeah. And that was one of the reasons why I think I was so successful in my career is because there's a...Just learning development is hard; let's be honest. It's just hard. And I would run into people that would honestly just talk over my head, and I was like, I have no idea what you're saying, but okay. But your courses, it was like, oh, okay, I understand that. That makes sense. Like, I can't remember the name of it, but the React beginner course I've been to that one probably three times just because I'm like, it's making sense. And every time, I get more and more and more out of it. So, I can definitely agree that the way you teach your courses it brings it down to earth. Like, I think maybe anybody could pick it up, I would say, because it's like you're talking to them, so yeah. WES: It's really important to me that everything is approachable. And I will often explain things, like, I'm the same as you. There's extremely smart people out there, and they'll just talk at you about all of these things. And it's just like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Those words don't make any sense to me. And it's not that I dumb it down. It's just like, the way that it makes sense in my brain is not the same way that they're talking. So, the way that I explain it is just how it makes sense to me, and people tend to really enjoy that type of thing. And I really hope that I can make a lot of this web development stuff approachable. And sometimes it's not the, like, exact perfect explanation of how something really works, the explanation you need to understand how these pieces fit together and when you would actually use something. That's the other part of a lot of the stuff that I teach as well is that I have this big thing on one of my course websites, which is like, no foo bar baz. Because when you're learning to code, you stumble across all these foo bar baz where people are making functions and passing the values in, and they're called meta-syntactic variables. The whole idea is that because foo bar baz mean nothing, you're able to take it out of context and focus on what is happening, and I'm quite the opposite. Show me a real example of a bunch of dogs, or a sandwich, or a button that you can click on that fetches data. And I always try to make my examples something that is real world enough that you could understand, okay, I see where this might be used rather than something in isolation because I find that myself very frustrating. VICTORIA: What's one of your favorite examples or, like, example scenarios that you use when you're designing a code problem to teach people? WES: It really comes down to, like, what you're teaching, but the ongoing joke on the podcast that we have is that I always use sandwiches because a sandwich is a great metaphor for a lot of things in life. So, for example, when we talk about streaming versus buffering, and we talk about, like, you're eating the sandwich as it's coming into your house versus you're cutting it into pieces and eating it. Or in my upcoming TypeScript course, I have a bunch of examples where there can be multiple types of food, and a sandwich can be one of them, and a pizza can be another one. And that kind of shows how to use generics, right? Like, you might have a database entry that is a food entry, but you want to further that to be a sandwich or a pizza, and not all of them are that simple, right? Like, a lot of them are also just related to web development, which is like, here's buttons that you need to click on, and here's data that you need to fetch, and here's a database schema that needs to happen. And if that's the case, I try to, like, make it real world enough where you can say, okay, I understand that this is how it works. Now, how can I apply that to my own idea? Because often, people learning to code have their own ideas. They just want to make something to solve their own problems. WILL: How did you learn to code? Because I don't think you did a traditional route. I remember on one of your podcasts, you said your dad was in IT, but I don't think you went to a traditional route. So, how did you learn to code? WES: It's a really long story. But the story is that I got into computers at an early age. I got into designing T-shirts and CD art for a lot of, like, hardcore bands in the music scene when I was in high school, and that parlayed into Myspace. Myspace taught me CSS. And then I've always been, like, fairly entrepreneurial, so that I parlayed into running my own business, making websites. And I've just been at it for so long that I've sort of taught myself all the pieces that I need over the years. I do have a degree in what's called business technology management, which is, it's a business degree but no coding or things involved. It was more, like, higher level. There was some, like, networking IP addresses, and then there was a lot more, like, business management teams, procurement, SAP, things like that, so none of the web development stuff I have learned comes from that degree. It's all self-taught. VICTORIA: So, you found that you had the skill around explaining web development concepts, and then that led to you creating your own business and having your own, like, coursework out there and everything through your podcast. So, maybe you could share a little bit what that journey has been like. WES: It's been a very long journey. I'm not sure which part you want to hear about, but I've been selling courses for probably about nine years. And I have sold quite a bit because I also offer about half of them for free. So, I have a bunch of free ones where people take it, and they're like, "Oh, this is amazing. I'm going to take the paid one that he has as well." And I spend a lot of time making sure that the free ones and the paid ones are the same quality. Like, it's not just some crappy 10-minute course that I'm using as a lead magnet to get you in the door. Like, they're actually pretty good. So, it's been really fun. Like, I've built a whole course platform that sells all of my courses, and you can view them and stream them, and there's invoicing and checkouts built into it. So, like now, if somebody wants to get into selling courses, there's lots of options out there where you can sign up for some SaaS and upload your course, and you're up and running. But at the time when I had done it, there was nothing like that out there, so I had to build my own whole course platform. And I've really enjoyed working on that over the years and upgrading it, and changing it, and rewriting, and adding features to it. VICTORIA: Yeah, that's really interesting. I like that you kept the quality the same on the free and the paid versions. That's a really interesting, I think, like, a reflection of your own values. And then, I'm curious: now that there are other hosting options out there, is there anything that would make you decide to switch to one of those platforms? Because it also sounds like you're getting a lot of enjoyment about managing the one you have yourself, and there might be some other benefits to that. WES: Yeah, probably not. First, because they take a cut, and a lot of these course platforms are not there to promote your business. They're there to promote their own business. And it's the same thing with YouTube. When your YouTube video ends, what does YouTube recommend? They usually recommend what you think you're going to watch, which is sometimes somebody else's video, right? And not having full control over how the courses are sold and consumed, to me, can be a little bit frustrating because you can't do different ideas that you have. So, like, one of the ideas I had early on is I was getting lots of email from people in different countries, you know, in Argentina, and in Brazil, and in India. And they say, "Hey, like, I would love to take your course, but the cost of the course is a day, a week's wages, and that's way too expensive for me." So, I implemented this thing called parity purchasing power. I didn't come up with the economic concept of it, but I was the first person to offer different prices based on the country that the user was coming from. And, A, that's a cool thing to do for people, and B, it helps sales tremendously. And if I was using some course platform, some of the course platforms now have that in place; it's table stakes, right? But at the time, I don't think I would have done as well if I hadn't coded that in myself. So, having full control over absolutely everything is really important to me. And also, like, nobody wants a teacher who doesn't actually build stuff, you know? No one wants to learn from the guy who just, like, skimmed the docs and came up with a crappy, little example. Like, you want to learn from people who are daily writing code and building real-world applications that, like, I have to support my family on this application, you know, it's pretty important, and it's pretty real world. WILL: Yeah, and just following you, I think...and I don't know if you would describe yourself like that, but I think you're, like, a tinkerer. Like, you just...some of the ideas you have is just like, let me just try it out and see if it works. And so, that's amazing that you're able to do that. Where does that side come from? Was it from your dad being in IT, or where did that come from? WES: Probably. Apart from growing up and seeing my dad just fix stuff and do stuff, but I'm just a constantly curious and hungry guy. And I absolutely love dipping into different tech and not even just tech but, like, I built this whole recording studio that's soundproofed. I built the whole thing myself just because I love to learn new things and to dive deep and learn how everything works. And I think a lot of developers very easily burn out. And I always like to say, like, my competitive advantage is not burning out. So, I'm very cognizant of that might happen at some point. And part of the cure for me is I need to be excited about this type of stuff, and I need to be using it. And being able to build new things, and dip into tech, and learn constantly is what keeps me excited and motivated about web development. WILL: Wow. So, you say you built your office. So, you built the entire, like, from concrete up? WES: Not concrete up. So, this was like a...I'm in a basement right now, and I put up some walls. And I talked to a bunch of sound engineers about soundproofing. So, the whole ceiling is not mechanically fastened to the actual ceiling. It's like kind of, like, a floating ceiling, which is pretty cool. And then there's soundproofing material in the walls and outside the walls, and special drywall, and all kinds of interesting stuff to make it sound as good as possible and be as quiet as possible in here because I have three kids. WILL: [laughs] I totally understand the three kids... WES: [laughs] WILL: And the noise that that brings. So, that's amazing. And I think you bring up something that we don't talk about enough in development is that mental health side. Like, just trying to figure out, what do you like to do outside of your computer, away from your computer? So, that's neat that you're working on that, and that that's probably why you haven't burnt out compared to other people. But yeah, kudos to you. That's yeah, that's pretty interesting that you have hobbies outside of that. WES: Yeah, I find that pretty important to sort of keep that balance. Otherwise, if you're doing it day in, day out, especially if you're working on the same thing...like, another benefit I have is I'm always dipping into new stuff, and that keeps it really interesting. But there's plenty of other creators out there that go too hard, and they go 24/7 on it, and then you don't hear from them for six months. And it's because they got burnt out on it, which is very scary to me that that might happen to me at some point. So, I try...I don't know if I've got it figured out, but I try to combat that as much as possible. VICTORIA: And I'm wondering how you balance just that need to create content because it seems to me that web development is constantly changing, right? And so, content that you created a year ago, maybe you got to go back and update everything. So, how do you manage that and keep your content fresh with all the ongoing changes in web development? WES: Yeah, unfortunately, sometimes it means you just have to deprecate content, or you say, "Hey, this is not the content you should be taking right now," because some of the courses take four or five months to record, and after a year or two, they can be out of date. So, I'll mark them as deprecated if they need to be. But I'm just kind of always working on something new, both with my courses as well as, like, the podcast. We always just have...that's the kind of the benefit of the job as well is that, like, yeah, it changes all the time, but there's always new stuff to talk about. As somebody who makes a living explaining how new things work, it's kind of nice. VICTORIA: That's great. You got a good pipeline of content to talk about [laughs] and to update for, so that's great. Mid-Roll Ad: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what’s important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode. VICTORIA: You know, you're creating this content for web developers, and you have this kind of global audience now. What's on the horizon for you? What are you planning for in the next couple of months or in the next five years? WES: Yeah, next couple of months, I have a TypeScript course I've been working on for over a year now. I've been sort of cranking on it, and that will be out. And then we have a podcast that we are going to be launching a video version of pretty soon, which I'm pretty excited about. We've been kind of going pretty hard. We just hired a producer. We've been going pretty hard on, like, the social clips type of thing. So, that's coming down the pipeline as well. And five years, I have no idea. I think I always say, like, a five-year plan is a five-year guess. You know, like, you can plan ahead for six months, a year, and have some good goals. But in web development, like, a year ago, AI, maybe a year, like, 13 months ago, the AI stuff was nothing but a murmur, right? And now, the AI stuff is a good chunk of what I talk about and what I teach. So, you just kind of got to react to it; otherwise, if you have a five-year plan, then you're not going to be able to catch these new things that pop up. WILL: How do you pick? Because I know you said you have a TypeScript course coming out. How do you pick new topics to talk about? Because there are so many. There's testing you can talk about. There's React Native. There are so many areas you can go to. How do you pick and choose that? WES: It's actually pretty easy because it's what I'm excited about and what I want to tell people and teach people, like, what they should be learning. So, like, every single one of my courses is tech that I myself am using and that I want to help teach other people, so it's pretty straightforward. It's not like I have some sort of, like, stats of, like, what is the most popular framework out there, and, like, obviously, that does play into it like a Next.js course. I've used Next.js in a couple of my courses. I'll probably do another Next.js course. But that's both because I enjoy it and because it's stable enough and popular enough that people would want to buy it. I'm not going to be creating a Java course or a Rust course or something like that because I know that's popular right now, and it would probably sell well. It's just not something I know enough about, or I'm excited about. VICTORIA: Yeah, and I'm curious to go back to your comment about AI and just ask you, how are you talking about it in your courses? What are, like, the things you think it's really important for developers to know right now about AI and web development? WES: There's kind of, like, two parts to it. First, there's the part of, like, using AI to help you code. So, there's all these, like, coding assistants that get in your editor, and you can send them your code, and it can help you decipher it, and it can scaffold out code. Those things are really, really good. And I know a lot of developers are hesitant about it because, like, "Who knows what kind of code it's generating? And you still have to be able to understand it. And I prefer to write it by hand." And that's a valid opinion, but, like, I don't think that that's going forward. And I think that this AI stuff is making us so much more efficient in writing code that if you're not picking it up, I think that you might be at a little bit of a disadvantage there. So, there's that [SP] hunk. And then there's also the, like, we're going to have to start implementing this stuff into the apps that we build, and whether it's just pinging in an AI service and getting data back or creating a bunch of embeddings so you can have related, like, for a blog post or for a podcast, we want related podcasts. Or if you want to use AI to, like...group tagging on a blog is a really annoying thing. Nobody uses tags well enough. But, like, what if the tags could just be automatically generated based on the words in the post or the words that we speak on the podcast? So, there's just, like, so many, like, new features that will make it better. Your product is going to be better for your end user. And even starting now and, like, when those features are not enabled, like, it's not, like, necessarily an AI feature, but it's like, wow, I wish this had better grouping of podcasts, or I wish that you had better tagging, or that your search is not very good because it's just a text match whereas there's a lot more depth that could be added with AI. So, integrating AI into our websites and our applications that we're building is going to become just another skill that you, as a web developer, have. VICTORIA: No, I think that's a really interesting take on it. And I'm curious if you've also seen AI used to even, like, suggest better standards for code or certain design patterns and, like, tools that help you, like what you said, kind of get better at coding faster. WES: That's the thing people are talking about. Like, if you're learning to code, should you use these types of things? Because, like, you can just hit Tab a couple of times, and it might look good. And it certainly can bite you. Especially if you need to be able to go back and edit that code to fix it, you need to understand how it works, so there's that part of it. But, man, does it make you faster for doing a lot of common things that you will be doing over again. It just really helps you out, so I'm a big fan of it. I have lots of complaints about it as well, but I think it's here to stay. VICTORIA: [laughs] Yeah, it's here to stay. And I've talked to founders who are really excited about it, and maybe they weren't, you know, they don't have years and years of React development experience, but they know the functions that their app needs to do. And they're able to use coding prompts and tools to kind of create at least a minimal product of what they want to build, so it's really exciting. WILL: I totally agree with AI because I use some, especially with the coding, and it makes it so much faster, but I do think you still have to know what you're doing. Because I think you posted on it, like, in one of the coding helpers that I use in VS Code, it still doesn't know how to close out the end of the line. You have these extra backticks or whatever. And it is like, so, as a new developer, you still have to understand your code, or that's going to drive you crazy every time that you use it [chuckles]. WES: Yeah, that's extremely frustrating, the backticks. I've had an issue open on GitHub Copilot for about a year now. They've said they fixed it, and a couple of little situations, it's been fixed. But I would love to, like, talk to somebody about, like, the actual issue because if you give the broken code back to the AI and say, "Fix it," it fixes it. So [laughs], it knows what's wrong. I just, I don't know. Yeah, you still have to know these things. WILL: You taught at Ladies Learning Code and then HackerYou. Did that help you overcome the imposter syndrome of teaching? I don't know if you knew how big your courses were going to become. But what did the imposter syndrome look like for you during that time, or did you even have it? WES: To a certain point, yeah. I think everybody has imposter syndrome, and that's good. Because if you're so confident that you're so amazing and blessed at this specific thing, then your head is probably too big, and [chuckles] you probably don't know what you don't know. But with a lot of my stuff, I'll often just ask people who know better than me. Like, that's a big part of what it is, is you can just consult experts or like, "Hey, what do you think about this?" Or "Is this the best approach?" Or "Here's my code. Do you mind running through it really quickly and see if there's anything that sticks out?" People are often, like, you can pay them, or people are often willing to help, so there's that. And like, also, you have to just know that this is for the people who enjoy it. Like, I'm not making courses for people who are better developers than I am. I'm making courses for people who like the way that I explain specific things. And then, like, another thing that probably really helped me is that I have, like, a 100% money back, no time limit on it. And that just makes me feel good about like, hey, like, if this is not actually good, if you do not think that this is good, or if you just don't jive with the way that I explain things, no sweat, you know, here's your money back. You keep going. And that makes me feel a lot better because it's not like I'm trying to fleece somebody for money and trick them into buying the course. Like, I feel pretty good about it, and if you feel pretty good about it, then we're both happy. WILL: Yeah, that's amazing because I feel like there's certain things that I would love to get started, but that imposter syndrome and also, like, the opinionated developers out there, like, you know what we are talking about. But it just seems like it would be hard to start with that. So, that's why I asked that question. WES: Yeah, I've learned that, like, a lot of these people that have these extremely harsh opinions are, A, they lack all the social skills, so there's something with them that they just don't have it. And you have to understand that that's just something that they have, and they may not be trying to be a jerk. That's just kind of the way they are. And if people are overly opinionated, it's usually because they're, like, covering for their own insecurity of what they want, not always. But a lot of times, I feel pretty good about people telling me, "Oh, you could do it this way," or "No, why are you doing it this way?" Like, I feel pretty confident in my skillset, but I also am always willing to learn and always willing to be corrected and learn new tips and techniques because that's how you get better. So, the people that are constantly being angry online and throwing around opinions and saying things are garbage, that's very scary for beginners because they think, oh, like, am I learning the wrong thing? I don't want to waste my time here. Like, am I going to lose my job if I don't learn it? And the reality is it's not that cut and dry, you know, it's a lot more easygoing. So, I try to convey that as well. And I don't put too much into these silly people who get really angry at semicolons or something silly like that. WILL: That's good advice. That's good advice. Because I think there's been some stuff that I want to do, that's held me back. So, that's really good advice. I appreciate it. WES: Yeah, just do it, like, you never know. Like, if someone's calling you out for putting yourself out there, like, that's a really big jerk thing to do. And I've called people out as well. Like, I don't get it as much anymore, and that probably has to do something with the fact that I've sort of established myself. But several times in the early days, people would be, like, mean. And I would just be like, "Hey, like, just call people out, like, nicely, but, like, hey, you don't have to be mean about it. I'm just trying to share what I've learned here." And that usually gets them. VICTORIA: Yeah. It's like, what are your intentions with providing this feedback to me right now? Like, are you trying to help? [laughs] Because it doesn't really feel that way. No, I appreciate that. And, you know, I'm also...part of thoughbot we've traditionally put out a lot of trainings, a lot of, you know, Upcase things on Ruby on Rails. And with my team, I'm looking at putting together some workshops around site reliability engineering and things that would be helpful for developers to learn how to instrument their code. So, speaking of advice that you would give to maybe any engineer or any developer who's looking to share their expertise, or put together a course, or even a blog post about what they're learning, like, what would you advise someone who's trying to create content like that? WES: Put it out there. When I released my Sublime textbook, keep in mind, a book about Sublime Text that's a pretty niche thing, there was already two books out there on that exact topic. And a couple of times, I was like, is anyone going to want this? There's already one of them out there. Should I even write this blog post? There's 70 out there. And just keep in mind that, like, the way that you explain it or the specific issue that you hit or whatever, it might be the way that really clicks for somebody else. So, I always tell people just put it out there. You never know what is going to come of it. It's likely going to be a net positive for the web development world in general. So, don't ever feel that you shouldn't put yourself out there because you might not know absolutely everything about it. Just share what you know. That's how we get better. VICTORIA: Yeah, I had a friend many years ago who we used to organize Women Who Code, and she said, "Do you think anyone would really be interested in, like, a cloud series of these topics?" And we're like, "Oh, maybe not." In the first event we had around Cloud for Women Who Code, I think, like, 30 people showed up. So yeah, put it out there, see who's interested, and go from there. That's great advice. WES: Yeah. On the same topic, is like, 'Will somebody want this?' is a huge question. People always come to me and they say, "Hey, do you think if I make a course on X, Y, and Z, will people buy it?" Or they'll put out a tweet that says, "Hey, would you buy this, or would you attend this?" And everybody's always like, "Yes, yes, yes," just trying to be supportive. But at the end of the day, you have to test these things by actually putting things out there. So, for me, how did I know the first thing I wanted to do was Sublime Text? It's because I put out blog posts on probably 20 different topics, and those were the posts that just hit really well, and they really resonated with people. So, like, if you're trying to understand, like, will it work? You can test those things very easily by putting a YouTube video up, putting a couple of TikToks up, write a blog post, put a couple of tweets up. And, eventually, when you put out enough content, you're going to start to see a trend in a specific area, and that will give you a little bit of guidance as to what it is you should pursue. WILL: That's great advice. Have you had any hurdles through your journey of online courses and the podcast, releasing podcasts? WES: I feel like I'm always, like, course-correcting. I've never had, like, a flop. And, like, I've had courses I've shelved. Early on, after Sublime Text, I was like, I'm going to do a gulp course, which was, like, a build tool for JavaScript. And then webpack started to get a little bit more popular, and I was like, okay, well, maybe I'll just make a tooling course in general, but I was like, ah, that's kind of way too big. And after, like, working on it for a couple of weeks, I was like, you know what? Like, I'm going to scrap this because I don't think that this is it, you know? So, just kind of always listening, always feedback, and course correcting is probably my biggest advice there for the hurdles. There's stuff that comes up, like people stealing the courses. And, like, I had early access to one of my courses once, and somebody bought it with a stolen credit card and then put it up online. And, like, that's incredibly deflating because now there's your unfinished course out there before people could even buy it. And people will spam you and run DDoS attacks on you and lots of stuff like that, where people are just...they see that. And that's always really frustrating, but you kind of roll with the punches and kind of keep working on it. WILL: Wow. That's interesting. So, someone bought the course with a stolen credit card, and they released it early to the public? WES: Yeah. I don't know if I should say this or not, but there's a very large Russian website that is...literally, they have a paid membership, and the whole point is that you pay for the membership, and you get access to every course ever. Sometimes, they use paid cards, and sometimes it's stolen cards. WILL: Oh, wow. WES: They just buy every course by every creator, and they put it up on this thing. And you can get it for free for the first, like, three months, and then it goes under their paid thing. And that stuff was really frustrating to me at first, but I've learned just to...the web development community is incredibly supportive, and I have nothing to complain about, really. People who do want to support you will support you. WILL: That's neat. That's really neat. VICTORIA: Yeah. And speaking of the web development community, are there events or conferences you go to or different, like, places where you really connect to the web development community? WES: Yeah. Conferences are fantastic. I really enjoy that those are back. So, React Miami is coming up. It's going to be a really fun one. But I go to a couple of conferences a year, and I usually speak at them. We also do meetups every now and then with Syntax where we'll rent out a bar and get a bunch of merch and stickers and just kind of chit-chat with everybody. That's honestly, my favorite is just going to a meetup where there's no talks or anything. It's just a bunch of interesting people in a room, and you get to talk with all kinds of cool people. VICTORIA: That's fun, yeah. I've been organizing a monthly CTO lunch down here in San Diego, and it's like, we just get together and have lunch and, like, talk about different stuff [laughs]. WES: Love it. VICTORIA: And it's really great. I used to organize those meetups with, like, two speakers, and then there was pizza and drinks and all that stuff to coordinate. And it's a lot easier just to kind of get everyone together and talk, which is what most people want anyways [laughs]. WES: I'm always bummed when you go to a conference and the, like, after party has, like, a band or, like, music is bumping. It's like, I just want a quiet room with some drinks that I can talk to people and have a good conversation, you know. VICTORIA: Yeah, I go to a lot of events, a lot of conferences, a lot of events. I see a lot of different types of stickers and design and anything like that. So, I thought it might be fun to ask you about that. Like, you know, I don't know if you can share us a link of what your stickers look like. Or how do you make it fun and interesting for you to have that kind of thing to hand out? WES: Once a year, once a year and a half, I make these sticker packs, and they have, I don't know, 15 or so stickers in it, various web development things. And it's a pretty big production because I get a lot of them done. So, the last time I sold 11,000 packages of them, and I sell them for five bucks shipped anywhere in the world. And it's, like, a huge logistical hurdle to try to make that happen because there's so much to it. But it's really fun for me because I'm able to do something that is fun. A lot of people aren't able to go to conferences and get the stickers, and they want that. They want to feel part of a community, and everybody loves getting a pack of stickers. So, I've been doing that for probably seven years now. Just right now, I'm just doing a little bit of research into what the next pack is going to look like and some new materials that have hit the sticker world [laughs], so it's pretty fun. The website is bos.af with, like, bos.af. That might not work anymore. I got note that the people who I registered the dot AF domain name from have lost contact with the Afghanistan domain authorities. So, it's possible I might just lose that domain name, which is a bit of a bummer because that's a really cool domain name, but that's where I sell them once a year. And, usually, they're only for sale for about a week, and then they're done selling, and I do the whole shipping thing around the world. VICTORIA: Wow. I did not think you were going to say, "Sold 11,000" sticker packs. That's really impressive [laughs]. WES: Yeah, it's crazy. It's almost 200,000 stickers if you think about it. VICTORIA: That's, like, a major production. I bet when you got into web development, you didn't think you'd also have a side hustle making stickers off of it [laughs]. WES: Yeah, it's crazy. Like, I was, like, sending them out with stamps, and it's just like, I was holding in one single hand, like, $4,000 worth of stamps. It's crazy to think. VICTORIA: I can imagine going into the post office and being like, "I need $4,000 worth of stamps [laughs]," but that's great. WES: The first time I just started dumping them into mail, I would cross the border because I'm in Canada, and the USPS is much cheaper. So, we would just cross the border, and then we just dumped them into mailboxes. And it was okay. But they were like, "Hey, like, next time, just, like, bring it to the post office, and, like, we have processes for this much mail." I don't mail them out of the U.S. anymore because there's some weird stuff around crossing the border. You have to do all this crazy stuff. But it's pretty crazy buying that many stamps. They usually look at you funny when you go to the store and say, "Hey, I need this many stamps." [laughter] VICTORIA: They're like, "Well, what are you doing?" [laughs] Well, great. I think, let's see, we're coming up at the end of our time here. So, are there any final takeaways for our listeners today? WES: Check me out. I'm at wesbos.com; podcast is at syntax.fm if you want to give it a listen. We post three times a week. And I just encourage everyone keep learning, keep excited about web development because it's a pretty cool industry. VICTORIA: Awesome. Thank you so much for taking time to chat with us today. I really enjoyed our conversation. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. And you can find me on X, formerly known as Twitter, @victori_ousg. WILL: And you could find me on X @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at [email protected] with any questions.

In this episode, host Victoria Guido talks with Jessica Wallace, the CEO of Flok22, an innovative app designed to enhance real-time social networking. Victoria delves into Jessica's unique journey from her roots as a hairdresser to becoming a tech entrepreneur. They explore how Jessica's personal experiences and challenges, including being a military wife and navigating life post-divorce with three children, fueled her drive to create Flok22. Jessica's desire to connect people in real-time, especially in the post-COVID era, led to the birth of this groundbreaking app. Victoria and Jessica discuss their mutual passion for music, revealing how their hobbies provide a creative outlet from the demanding world of startups. Jessica shares her aspirations to return to playing the drums, a skill inspired by her family's musical background, and her journey in learning the instrument during the pandemic. On technology and entrepreneurship, Jessica dives into the challenges and triumphs of developing and marketing Flok22. She reflects on the importance of networking, particularly in the startup community, and how her app addresses the inefficiencies and awkwardness often encountered at networking events. Victoria and Jessica discuss the evolution of Flok22, emphasizing its focus on enhancing in-person connections and its pivot towards a more event-centric approach, as well as the future of networking, the potential of Flok22, and their shared enthusiasm for making meaningful connections, both professionally and musically. Flok22 (https://flok22.com/) Follow Flok22 on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/flok22?mibextid=ZbWKwL), Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/company/flok22/), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/flok22app/). Follow Jessica Wallace on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-wallace-b9526361/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Jessica Wallace, CEO of Flok22, the app that helps you make friends and grow your network in real-time situations. Jessica, thank you for joining us. JESSICA: Thank you for having me. VICTORIA: Yeah. Well, just to get us started and warm up here, Jessica, is there any new skill or any skill you've come back to to practice more recently to kind of take your mind off of all the founder stuff that's happening? JESSICA: Yeah. It's been a busy past two months of events and things like that. So, I've kind of been taking a little bit of downtime. I am hoping to start practicing the drums. I play those, and I haven't been doing that in a while. They've been kind of staring me down, so... VICTORIA: So, were you a drummer before? Were you in a band, or? JESSICA: No, never was in a band. Actually, my dad and my uncle were drummers in a band. And as a kid, I would kind of pick up the drumsticks. And I remember my uncle kind of saying like, "Hey, is that Jessica down there?" Because I would sound like I was playing [laughs] something. Yeah, it took me a while to get into it. But during COVID, I picked it up and started practicing. VICTORIA: I love that. So, do you have a whole drum set at home, or do you have one of those, like, electric? JESSICA: I have both. I have the electric one, which I think I'm going to kind of get out and mess with. But I have an actual full drum set. It's like a TAMA light blue little set. VICTORIA: That's so fun. I like playing the drums, but I never made the leap to actually own my own drum set. So, whenever my friends have it, though, I can play, like, maybe one or two beats on [laughs] it. Nothing that impressive, but yeah, it's a lot of fun. JESSICA: Do you play any other instruments? VICTORIA: Yeah, I've always...I played piano when I was younger, and then clarinet and bass guitar through, like, middle school and high school. I did have a band in college. We played two shows, and they were both at my house, which was a lot of fun. JESSICA: [laughs] VICTORIA: I had kind of stopped playing music, and then when COVID happened, it was like, well [laughs], I guess I need to find another hobby again. So, I picked up piano again. And now I've been playing keyboard and trying to sing at the same time, which has been entertaining for everyone in my household, so...[laughs] JESSICA: Very cool. Too bad we didn't, like, catch up during COVID time. We could have started a band. VICTORIA: Yes. Yeah. I'm trying to think of a way to get more disciplined about practicing, actually, because that's...I know people who practice for, like, three hours a day every day. And I'm just like, how do you make yourself sit there for that long [laughs]? JESSICA: That's definitely been the challenge with me. And then, of course, being in a startup, and then, you know, that kind of got put on the backburner, but I hope to pick it up. VICTORIA: Yeah, right? So, we met at San Diego Startup Week, which was a fantastic event here in San Diego; a different location every night and, different speakers, and all of these really interesting people to meet. So, why don't you tell me a little bit about what brought you to San Diego Startup Week? JESSICA: Well, first things first is being a startup here in San Diego, so that made me go. And I knew it's very important, the more I'm realizing, to build your network and connect with people, and especially just within the community, getting yourself out there to be known, talking to other companies, even just showing your support to other startups. It's such an important thing to do. VICTORIA: And your app, Flok22, specifically, solves some problems people might have with going to an event like that and trying to make friends and network with people. So, can you tell me a little bit more about the initial problem you had when you just came up with the idea for the app? JESSICA: So, the initial problem was kind of around COVID time when everything opened back up. And there was this plethora of meetup apps that everybody was on trying to make these connections. And I would start to go out with friends, and as I'm looking around, it was that weird, awkward time where you couldn't talk to anybody you didn't come with. And I would literally see people, including my friends, swiping on matching apps while they were sitting at the table, but nobody was talking to one another. And that's when I realized we needed something that was more venue-based, where it was like, hey, I'm here. I'm out. Let me see who's available to connect. And that's where the concept came about. And then, during a lot of these networking events, I started to realize the same thing. It was people trying to network, and we're still doing the old-school name tags and signing our name on a paper. And it would just be so much more easier to have everybody on that one platform to connect with a little bit more effective and efficiently. VICTORIA: And so, how long has it been since you had this idea and you've been in this journey with Flok22? JESSICA: Well, it's been a little over two years. Right around COVID is when I got the idea. I was a hairdresser for, like, 20-plus years and wasn't working and at home with my three kids. And the idea just was kind of pricking at me. And it took me a while to try and figure out, you know, how can I do this? How can I, with no funds, you know, newly divorced, three kids, how am I going to start an app? And I just kept pushing on trying to connect with the right people and build a product. VICTORIA: I love that. What inspired you? Like, you had this idea for an app. And you're like, you know what? I'm going to make it work. Like, what kept you going? What made you think this is a thing I can put my time and energy into and be successful? JESSICA: You know, there's a lot of factors. I feel like it's just one of those things where you kind of just...you know how you just get that instinct and idea, and you're like, I just can't let it go? And I remember hitting a low point because I had tried to call different development teams. I had tried to do it on my own. And I felt like I wasn't getting anywhere. And I was literally walking on a treadmill, and a friend gave me this YouTube thing to listen to, and it was Les Brown. And he was talking about if you were on your deathbed, you know, these ideas and these dreams, they're just staring you with angry eyes because they came to you for life. And it, like, hit me, like, very intensely to where I was like, I have to do this. I can't just look back in my life and be like, I had this idea. I know somebody's going to do it because everybody would be like, "This is a great idea." So, it's just a matter of you just got to keep going. VICTORIA: Well, I'm glad that you're working on this because I can totally relate to that experience of, you know, for me, I came from Washington, D.C., and moved to San Diego. When I was in D.C., I had spent years in the meetup community and organizing meetups. And so, it got to the point where anytime I went to a meetup, I would know at least one person there. And now coming to San Diego, like, starting it all over again, was very daunting. And, like, walking into...what was it? San Diego tech event where there's, like, 100 people in this beautiful Balboa Park location and just being so nervous [laughs]. I'm like, who do I talk to? Like, how do I get started? And you immediately think I should just leave and go home [laughs]. But let me get a glass of Chardonnay and go over to the craft makers table and make some art and then I'll, like, feel a little bit better. So yeah, I'm curious, like, so you had this great idea. Like, you knew you wanted to put your effort into it. As you started going through the process of figuring out how to get started or how to find that market fit, was there anything that surprised you in your early stages that made you pivot into a new direction? JESSICA: Well, I would say just, like, hearing your story, so many of us have been in that boat. I used to be a military wife, so I was always picking up and moving. And the older we get, it's hard to build and start up your network again. And I see a lot of people posting on Facebook or, you know, Instagram, and they're, like, putting their profile out there trying to make friends. So, there's definitely a need for it. Originally, I wanted it more for the social aspect, which was coffee shops, bars, restaurants, being able to just check in and see who's there that is open to connect. One thing we did kind of start to realize is a lot of people, even though they want to make those connections, people are still nervous to claim that they're trying to, like, make a friend. So, the biggest thing that we learned in the product-market fit was people were more inclined to use it for networking. They felt a little bit more secure and safer that way. So, I would say that would be a thing that we kind of picked up on. VICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense. Because when I'm going to networking, like, of course, I would love to find leads for people who need consulting work from thoughtbot or software development or platform engineering. But if you go in with that intention, it's disingenuous, and it's not very effective. Whereas if you go into a networking event with the intention to make friends and just to learn about people and to find common interest, it's, like, indirectly aiming at your target is the best way to actually get there [laughs]. So, it makes sense. And so, you pivoted into more events and networking. Has there been anything that you've found about that experience or that group of people that's surprised you, or? JESSICA: I do feel like the social side will pick up on it. I just think it's going to take a little bit more time. But with the networking, I wasn't really doing any of that until I got into this startup. So, I didn't even see the need for it until I got in there. And then here I am, you know, going to a table, trying to find my name tag, and everything's still very much old school when it comes to that. And so, that was what surprised me is just was, like, this would be perfect. Everybody's trying to exchange their LinkedIns. Everybody is trying to find the right person. And sometimes you get stuck in a conversation with somebody for 20 minutes, and it's some sales guy from who knows where, and you're just like, uh, I'm not really looking for that. You know what I mean? Great to connect, but got to go. So, it's so much better to just find the right people that you're looking for and network more efficiently. VICTORIA: Yeah, I don't know if this is that exact experience, but what I've kind of heard from other founders is sometimes you go to a networking event, and maybe you're looking for, like, mentors or people to help you or your own [inaudible 10:09]. And then there's more people trying to sell things to you [laughs] than there are, like, those actual people you're looking for who would help you. So, that's really interesting. So, now you've started to kind of really get involved in the networking. And I'm curious: how many events have you gone to so far this year? Do you have a rough estimate? JESSICA: I'm, like, trying to think. It's, like, such a blur because I really have been going to so many. And also, I've been a part of the SDAC E-track, which is the Angel Conference, San Diego Angel Conference that's coming up. So, we're hoping to get accepted in that. I'm going to say, at least this month, probably 12, I would suspect. VICTORIA: Wait, 12 this month? JESSICA: I think so, yeah. And some of them have been little ones. Like, I've done some happy hour events. There's these really cool, like, social happy hour events I've been trying to kind of partner up with. So, definitely some smaller ones, and then some bigger ones, and then including my E-track. So, that's kind of the calculation I have. VICTORIA: Wow, I mean, there's only been 15 days so far this month, so 13 events that's quite a lot [laughs]. I hope you do get some time to rest and play the drums later this month. But that's really exciting. So, I'm curious: as a founder, obviously, you have an event space networking app. But have you found other benefits from growing your network as an early-stage founder? JESSICA: Definitely. The biggest impact is connecting with these people. And whether you read that book, "Rich Dad, Poor Dad," they say, you know, "Poor people look for work, and rich people build networks." And it's true because I'm noticing that for myself. You get around these people, and most of the time, they really do want to help, or you just need to have the ask, you know, ask what you're looking for. And they're more than willing to set you up with other people to get partnerships. I ended up meeting somebody at the MIC Conference, which was in Vegas last month. And they connected me with somebody who now we are going to be partnering with them to have our app be used at their conference. So, it's as simple as that, just once you're in front of them and you get that more personal touch, and then they kind of refer you to other people. VICTORIA: Oh, that's great. And how does your app compare to the existing apps that are out there for networking at events or for managing attendees at events? JESSICA: Well, currently, there's not anything that's doing it in real-time. There is some conference events they have, like Cvent, Whova app. Personally, to me, it was just there's so much going on. You have the event, you know, vendors. You have the schedule. You have so much going on. And for us, our main thing is just connecting you to the right person. So, it's a more simplistic version of just being able to simply check in, see the profiles of the people that are there, see what it is that you're looking for, and know that you want to connect with them. Also, the other feature that we have is allowing you to see anybody that you may have missed when you leave. So, you can kind of easily filter through those profiles and decide who to reach out to. I mean, similar to maybe, like, a meetup, but it's more just on demand. There quite hasn't been anything that's doing it right instantaneously. VICTORIA: Yeah, and I can agree. I've used some of those apps before. And what I've noticed there's just not a ton of activity or user activity on the day of. And I'm curious to see...I really want to try out Flok, too. I know I'm like [laughs], I haven't had a chance to actually get in there yet, but it is on my to-do list. So, I'm curious, you know, as someone who didn't have a background in technology or building applications, like, how did you go about getting up to speed and finding the people you needed to help you actually build the app? JESSICA: Yeah, I mean, being a hairstylist, I was not tech at all. So, it's pretty interesting that here I am, you know, in this app development world. The main thing was just getting out there. I knew I had already been on so many apps just, whether it was some of the dating apps, meetup apps, so I knew how they operated and what I was looking for as a customer that I wanted to fix. Most of the time, it was heavily with all these pictures, and prompts, and things like that, and I would get bored of setting it up. It would take me, like, you know, 30-plus minutes. Not to mention, I call it, like, adding people to your cart. It's just very impersonal. You got so many people just piling people to their cart. You might talk to them for a little bit, then stop. And I think people are just kind of getting over it. It's time-consuming. It's a lot of time and planning, and sometimes you plan something and then...even with the girls meeting a friend, it's like they plan something for Thursday, and somebody cancels, and then you're SOL, you know? VICTORIA: Oh yeah. So, you had experience with using different apps for, like, networking or meeting people and making friends, and you saw that there was this gap. And then, how did you go to actually building the app? And were there any lessons that you learned in that process? JESSICA: That was my experience and why I was doing that. The main thing I did after that was I started hitting up events to find and recruit. That was how I started finding...I met my co-founder through a mutual friend. She's been wonderful. She's, like, complete opposite of me. She's, like, the business-organized one. Like, hey, we need an LLC. We need this. We need that. I'm more just the idea and brains and kind of behind the scenes. Then I started going to some tech events, met our UI UX designer, Laura, who's been fantastic. So, that would be my advice to people. If you're looking to build and you're trying to find the right people, of course, LinkedIn could be a good spot. Y Combinator could be a good spot. For me, I think going out there and actually making the personal connections and meeting the people and ask them and find what you're looking for. VICTORIA: And you could now even use Flok22 to find your early founder team [laughs]. JESSICA: Exactly. See? VICTORIA: That's awesome. MID-ROLL AD: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops. VICTORIA: So, you went out, and you just met people, and you had this compelling vision of what you wanted to build and were able to recruit them onto your team. Was there anything...you know, you've been at this for two years now. Through the development process, was there anything you learned about what to do or what not to do in how you engage with your designers and developers? JESSICA: You know, it's like, we dove out there, like, headfirst. And then there was a period of time where we needed to pause and re-calibrate, and that was due to the fact that you have to be very diligent in looking for development if you're outsourcing. If you know a CTO or you have somebody in-house that, you know, you're working with, you may not have the problems that we ran into. But with outsourcing, there's still very much a gray area. And we ended up getting a product that was not really functional and had a lot of issues, which caused a huge setback for us. It was a great, you know, lesson learned if that. But you have to be really particular on who you're finding. I would suggest heavily on finding somebody that is a referral from somebody that you know, as a matter of fact, that they use. Because nowadays, there's times that they can almost, like, fake what they have. I mean, they might have references. They'll put stuff up on their website showcasing products that they did, and those aren't even products that they did. So, we ran into a huge deal with that. But it made us take a step back. We re-honed in on our user persona, had our UI UX designer redesign everything, and came back out here again. VICTORIA: Yes, because people will let you pay them to build anything [laughs]. JESSICA: Oh yeah. VICTORIA: But it may not be exactly what you wanted. And what you said, going with someone who is a referral, going with someone who, I think, clearly demonstrates that they need to understand the underlying issue, as opposed to just being willing to take whatever requirements you have and build it. That's a big differentiator for companies. And it can be frustrating because I think, you know, for thoughtbot, sometimes people come to us, and they're like, "We already have the designs. We already know what we want. You just build it for us." And we [inaudible 19:21], like, coach them around that. Like, are you sure? Like, let's look at your market validation, and let's look at your product fit. And, you know, let's go back and make sure that we're all aligned and that you're actually getting value out of something, and showing you the results on a regular basis, as opposed to it'll be done in three months, and you just wait until then. Sometimes, that can be $150,000 later, and, at the end, you're not actually getting a product that you really wanted. JESSICA: Exactly. And like I said, there's still a big, gray area in that where, you know, you can be given a product, and it's not even barely working, or it looks like garbage. And you're kind of stuck because trying to go after these people to get your money back it's most likely not going to happen. And then you just lost out on all that money you put into that product. So, it can be very frustrating for people. I hope to eventually kind of shed light on that and maybe help people along the way, so they don't fall trap to those type of kind of scammers that are out there for development. And I'm sure you, being CTO, you've seen a lot of that [chuckles]. VICTORIA: Yeah, that's something we work really hard to kind of coach clients around and figure out to make sure because we don't want to end in that situation where our founder feels like we built something for them that doesn't work or doesn't look great, or what they're happy with [chuckles]. So yeah, I think it's very common. It happens to a lot of people. But I'm happy that you didn't get discouraged and you said, you know what? We can go for round two. Let's take what we learned and put it into the next version of the app. And one of my favorite phrases from doing this podcast that I've heard is, "If the first product you build if you're proud of it, you didn't do it fast enough" [laughs]. So, like, usually, the first thing you build is not pretty, but you had to push through and build something. And that's the first application you've ever built. So, how did you feel about the second time going around? What did you do differently to be happier with and prouder of the product version that you put out there? JESSICA: Yeah, I like that phrase, too, and sometimes I'm the same. It's kind of like, you know, fail fast and get out there. But the second build was definitely so much more smoother and better. But, actually, we are in transition to a newer, bigger development team because there's still some things that we're just not completely set on. And I do think that moving along to this next development team, there's a more better fit. And then, we also received a grant from AWS to build a better back-end infrastructure, so when we do scale up, and there is more people on there, that it can withhold that capacity. So, I'm definitely happy with it right now. And I know that getting it out there—and you know this, too—is just getting it out there with all the users, you know, there may be some different feedback coming in and out. We plan on, you know, making any changes necessary if need be, and just kind of always making it a little better each time. VICTORIA: Is that the AWS Activate program? JESSICA: It's not the Activate, but it's just we're actually working with a company, and it was AWS. They had filled everything out for us, you know, they want to help startups getting out into the app world because, again, if we're making money, they're making money, too, with it being on their servers. So, it's kind of a win-win. And we can store all of that data and be able to scale up properly. VICTORIA: Absolutely, yeah. And so, for those who don't know, the AWS Activate program, you can apply for up to $100,000 in free credits, and other cloud providers have similar programs where you can get free money [chuckles]. But, no, that's really cool that you're a part of that. So, what challenges do you see on the horizon for Flok22? JESSICA: Of course, I hope there's going to be none, but we know in this entrepreneurial world, it's always there. I think, you know, the hard part are always going to be kind of those situations where maybe people aren't using the app properly or things of that sort happening. Other app companies have dealt with that. It's like, you could be out somewhere, and a situation happens. So, that's kind of the only thing that I would be worried about is just ensuring the safety of all of our users, making sure that everybody is understanding. And I guess when that time comes and if there are things that, you know, come at you, it's just a matter of handling it. So, I hope it's not anything too heavy, but I guess we'll see. VICTORIA: Yeah. Well, I appreciate you having that concern early on. Because I do feel like sometimes people create apps for networking and collaboration without thinking about the safety of their users. And it's more common from founders who have never been in a situation where they're unsafe [laughs]. So, like, maybe from your unique perspective, you, like, know that that is an issue that you might need to solve or that will come up, and having a plan for it makes sense. JESSICA: We definitely have a plan for it. I mean, a lot of people don't realize with these apps that are out there, there's actually been a pretty high increase in, like, sex trafficking and different things. And most people don't know that because they're not the ones going in there and doing the market research. So, our main thing is getting people out there to meet in public places, which is much safer. You're not, you know, getting lured and unsure if that's even the person who that they say they are, or you're going to someone's house or on a hike. It just makes it for a much safer environment. And then we're working on some other added features where, you know, you can kind of validate the people just to ensure that. VICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense. And what is the wind in your sails? What keeps you going and keeps you excited about working on this? JESSICA: It's my passion. It's kind of like now; this has been my baby for a couple of years. So, of course, my family is always number one. I have three kids, a rat, two dogs, and a lizard. I adore my family, but I just have a passion for this. And I know that it's just a matter of time before this becomes a thing. And so, I just push myself on the daily trying to figure out the solutions and just keep moving forward with it. VICTORIA: And what does success look like in six months, or even beyond that, in five years? JESSICA: I think, for us, it will just be getting that heavy adoption of users, getting known out here in San Diego or in other parts. We plan on trying to hit more of the major cities where you got a lot of newcomers coming in and traveling, whether that's Chicago, New York, Miami, Vegas. As we get that adoption, just growing as a company and see where it goes from there. VICTORIA: That's great. Yeah, I look forward to when I can go to a conference and just identify who are all the rock climbers in the room, and I can go bug and talk about [laughs], like, climbing with. I love that. JESSICA: And, two, going to these conferences, also, not only your...you get to connect with the people that are there, but it's the people in the surrounding city, too. It's like a lot of people leave the conference, and they want to go to a bar or a coffee shop. And the fact that you have the option or opportunity to connect with the people who are there as well is a win-win. VICTORIA: I love that, yeah. And do you have any questions for me about thoughtbot, or the podcast, or anything like that? JESSICA: For me, you being, like, a CTO, I know you've maybe...have you seen apps like this become successful? I would love your take on kind of getting out there in the market for something like this because we are at that stage where we're trying to hit the market pretty heavily. We're hitting college campuses, you know, bigger conferences, trying to get that adoption in small clusters for it to be, you know, fun and usable for users. But I would love your take on that. VICTORIA: Yeah, and, actually, I'm a managing director. Our CTO is Joe Ferris, who's currently my acting dev director for my team. But from my experience, you know, there might be a lot of competing apps who try to aim for similar things. But if you're very closely understanding your users and their needs and focusing on solving their problems, then you will find your niche, and you'll be able to be successful and grow that from there. So, if you have a strong vision for what the problem is and you're willing to actually listen to your users and pivot based off of that, that will set you up to be successful. Yeah, and I've talked about this with other friends who are really into networking and meeting up with people. And there continues to be this gap of, like, how people communicate and how we actually connect. So, I think you're on the right track [chuckles], and you're doing a lot of great things. And I think the only other advice I would say is what you've already kind of pointed out is to make sure you're not burning out early on and that you're taking that time and space to be with your family and to do your hobbies, and having a strong rest ethic as you do a work ethic and making sure you're still a whole person. And you'll make better decisions if you're giving your brain a little bit of downtime. JESSICA: Definitely. I so agree with you. That's very important to have that balance. And we just hope that we can fill that gap when it comes to the networking. So, I hope that everyone can give it a try and see what they think. VICTORIA: I love that, yeah. Is there anything else that you would like to promote? JESSICA: I mean, honestly, this is not so much about me. I'm really passionate about this app and networking and connecting people together and getting it, so it's just more easy for everybody to connect out in person without wasting that time and energy. Just be out doing you and meet the right people. That's what Flok22 is all about. VICTORIA: I love that. And we'll have to get together and play some music. I'll tell you the two songs I have memorized on piano right now are Kiss from a Rose by Seal and Someone Like You by Adele, so...[laughs] JESSICA: Oooh. VICTORIA: But we do have a bit of a girls' band going in San Diego, so we'll connect on that, too [laughs]. JESSICA: Yeah, we'll have to link up. Add some drums to your... VICTORIA: We don't have a drummer, so that's perfect, yeah [laughs]. JESSICA: See? It's networking at its best [laughs]. VICTORIA: Yes, yeah. I love it. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate hearing your story. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at [email protected] with any questions.

In this episode of the "Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots" podcast, host Victoria Guido delves into the intersection of technology, product development, and personal passions with her guests Henry Yin, Co-Founder and CTO of Merico, and Maxim Wheatley, the company's first employee and Community Leader. They are joined by Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot, as a special guest co-host. The conversation begins with a casual exchange about rock climbing, revealing that both Henry and Victoria share this hobby, which provides a unique perspective on their professional roles in software development. Throughout the podcast, Henry and Maxim discuss the journey and evolution of Merico, a company specializing in data-driven tools for developers. They explore the early stages of Merico, highlighting the challenges and surprises encountered while seeking product-market fit and the strategic pivot from focusing on open-source funding allocation to developing a comprehensive engineering metric platform. This shift in focus led to the creation of Apache DevLake, an open-source project contributed to by Merico and later donated to the Apache Software Foundation, reflecting the company's commitment to transparency and community-driven development. The episode also touches on future challenges and opportunities in the field of software engineering, particularly the integration of AI and machine learning tools in the development process. Henry and Maxim emphasize the potential of AI to enhance developer productivity and the importance of data-driven insights in improving team collaboration and software delivery performance. Joe contributes to the discussion with his own experiences and perspectives, particularly on the importance of process over individual metrics in team management. Merico (https://www.merico.dev/) Follow Merico on GitHub (https://github.com/merico-dev), Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/company/merico-dev/), or X (https://twitter.com/MericoDev). Apache DevLake (https://devlake.apache.org/) Follow Henry Yin on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/henry-hezheng-yin-88116a52/). Follow Maxim Wheatley on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/maximwheatley/) or X (https://twitter.com/MaximWheatley). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Henry Yin, Co-Founder and CTO of Merico, and Maxim Wheatley, the first employee and Community Leader of Merico, creating data-driven developer tools for forward-thinking devs. Thank you for joining us. HENRY: Thanks for having us. MAXIM: Glad to be here, Victoria. Thank you. VICTORIA: And we also have a special guest co-host today, the CTO of thoughtbot, Joe Ferris. JOE: Hello. VICTORIA: Okay. All right. So, I met Henry and Maxim at the 7CTOs Conference in San Diego back in November. And I understand that Henry, you are also an avid rock climber. HENRY: Yes. I know you were also in Vegas during Thanksgiving. And I sort of have [inaudible 00:49] of a tradition to go to Vegas every Thanksgiving to Red Rock National Park. Yeah, I'd love to know more about how was your trip to Vegas this Thanksgiving. VICTORIA: Yes. I got to go to Vegas as well. We had a bit of rain, actually. So, we try not to climb on sandstone after the rain and ended up doing some sport climbing on limestone around the Blue Diamond Valley area; a little bit light on climbing for me, actually, but still beautiful out there. I loved being in Red Rock Canyon outside of Las Vegas. And I do find that there's just a lot of developers and engineers who have an affinity for climbing. I'm not sure what exactly that connection is. But I know, Joe, you also have a little bit of climbing and mountaineering experience, right? JOE: Yeah. I used to climb a good deal. I actually went climbing for the first time in, like, three years this past weekend, and it was truly pathetic. But you have to [laughs] start somewhere. VICTORIA: That's right. And, Henry, how long have you been climbing for? HENRY: For about five years. I like to spend my time in nature when I'm not working: hiking, climbing, skiing, scuba diving, all of the good outdoor activities. VICTORIA: That's great. And I understand you were bouldering in Vegas, right? Did you go to Kraft Boulders? HENRY: Yeah, we went to Kraft also Red Spring. It was a surprise for me. I was able to upgrade my outdoor bouldering grade to B7 this year at Red Spring and Monkey Wrench. There was always some surprises for me. When I went to Red Rock National Park last year, I met Alex Honnold there who was shooting a documentary, and he was really, really friendly. So, really enjoying every Thanksgiving trip to Vegas. VICTORIA: That's awesome. Yeah, well, congratulations on B7. That's great. It's always good to get a new grade. And I'm kind of in the same boat with Joe, where I'm just constantly restarting my climbing career. So [laughs], I haven't had a chance to push a grade like that in a little while. But that sounds like a lot of fun. HENRY: Yeah, it's really hard to be consistent on climbing when you have, like, a full-time job, and then there's so much going on in life. It's always a challenge. VICTORIA: Yeah. But a great way to like, connect with other people, and make friends, and spend time outdoors. So, I still really appreciate it, even if I'm not maybe progressing as much as I could be. That's wonderful. So, tell me, how did you and Maxim actually meet? Did you meet through climbing or the outdoors? MAXIM: We actually met through AngelList, which I really recommend to anyone who's really looking to get into startups. When Henry and I met, Merico was essentially just starting. I had this eagerness to explore something really early stage where I'd get to do all of the interesting kind of cross-functional things that come with that territory, touching on product and marketing, on fundraising, kind of being a bit of everything. And I was eager to look into something that was applying, you know, machine learning, data analytics in some really practical way. And I came across what Hezheng Henry and the team were doing in terms of just extracting useful insights from codebases. And we ended up connecting really well. And I think the previous experience I had was a good fit for the team, and the rest was history. And we've had a great time building together for the last five years. VICTORIA: Yeah. And tell me a little bit more about your background and what you've been bringing to the Merico team. MAXIM: I think, like a lot of people in startups, consider myself a member of the Island of Misfit Toys in the sense that no kind of clear-cut linear pathway through my journey but a really exciting and productive one nonetheless. So, I began studying neuroscience at Georgetown University in Washington, D.C. I was about to go to medical school and, in my high school years had explored entrepreneurship in a really basic way. I think, like many people do, finding ways to monetize my hobbies and really kind of getting infected with that bug that I could create something, make money from it, and kind of be the master of my own destiny, for lack of less cliché terms. So, not long after graduating, I started my first job that recruited me into a seed-stage venture capital, and from there, I had the opportunity to help early-stage startups, invest in them. I was managing a startup accelerator out there. From there, produced a documentary that followed those startups. Not long after all of that, I ended up co-founding a consumer electronics company where I was leading product, so doing lots of mechanical, electrical, and a bit of software engineering. And without taking too long, those were certainly kind of two of the more formative things. But one way or another, I've spent my whole career now in startups and, especially early-stage ones. It was something I was eager to do was kind of take some of the high-level abstract science that I had learned in my undergraduate and kind of apply some of those frameworks to some of the things that I do today. VICTORIA: That's super interesting. And now I'm curious about you, Henry, and your background. And what led you to get the idea for Merico? HENRY: Yeah. My professional career is actually much simpler because Merico was my first company and my first job. Before Merico, I was a PhD student at UC Berkeley studying computer science. My research was an intersection of software engineering and machine learning. And back then, we were tackling this research problem of how do we fairly measure the developer contributions in a software project? And the reason we are interested in this project has to do with the open-source funding problem. So, let's say an open-source project gets 100k donations from Google. How does the maintainers can automatically distribute all of the donations to sometimes hundreds or thousands of contributors according to their varying level of contributions? So, that was the problem we were interested in. We did research on this for about a year. We published a paper. And later on, you know, we started the company with my, you know, co-authors. And that's how the story began for Merico. VICTORIA: I really love that. And maybe you could tell me just a little bit more about what Merico is and why a company may be interested in trying out your services. HENRY: The product we're currently offering actually is a little bit different from what we set out to build. At the very beginning, we were building this platform for open-source funding problem that we can give an open-source project. We can automatically, using algorithm, measure developer contributions and automatically distribute donations to all developers. But then we encountered some technical and business challenges. So, we took out the metrics component from the previous idea and launched this new product in the engineering metric space. And this time, we focus on helping engineering leaders better understand the health of their engineering work. So, this is the Merico analytics platform that we're currently offering to software engineering teams. JOE: It's interesting. I've seen some products that try to judge the health of a codebase, but it sounds like this is more trying to judge the health of the team. MAXIM: Yeah, I think that's generally fair to say. As we've evolved, we've certainly liked to describe ourselves as, you know, I think a lot of people are familiar with observability tools, which help ultimately ascertain, like, the performance of the technology, right? Like, it's assessing, visualizing, chopping up the machine-generated data. And we thought there would be a tremendous amount of value in being, essentially, observability for the human-generated data. And I think, ultimately, what we found on our journey is that there's a tremendous amount of frustration, especially in larger teams, not in looking to use a tool like that for any kind of, like, policing type thing, right? Like, no one's looking if they're doing it right, at least looking to figure out, like, oh, who's underperforming, or who do we need to yell at? But really trying to figure out, like, where are the strengths? Like, how can we improve our processes? How can we make sure we're delivering better software more reliably, more sustainably? Like how are we balancing that trade-off between new features, upgrades and managing tech debt and bugs? We've ultimately just worked tirelessly to, hopefully, fill in those blind spots for people. And so far, I'm pleased to say that the reception has been really positive. We've, I think, tapped into a somewhat subtle but nonetheless really important pain point for a lot of teams around the world. VICTORIA: Yeah. And, Henry, you said that you started it based on some of the research that you did at UC Berkeley. I also understand you leaned on the research from the DevOps research from DORA. Can you tell me a little bit more about that and what you found insightful from the research that was out there and already existed? MAXIM: So, I think what's really funny, and it really speaks to, I think, the importance in product development of just getting out there and speaking with your potential users or actual users, and despite all of the deep, deep research we had done on the topic of understanding engineering, we really hadn't touched on DORA too much. And this is probably going back about five years now. Henry and I were taking a customer meeting with an engineering leader at Yahoo out in the Bay Area. He kind of revealed this to us basically where he's like, "Oh, you guys should really look at incorporating DORA into this thing. Like, all of the metrics, all of the analytics you're building super cool, super interesting, but DORA really has this great framework, and you guys should look into it." And in hindsight, I think we can now [chuckles], honestly, admit to ourselves, even if it maybe was a bit embarrassing at the time where both Henry and I were like, "What? What is that? Like, what's Dora?" And we ended up looking into it and since then, have really become evangelists for the framework. And I'll pass it to Henry to talk about, like, what that journey has looked like. HENRY: Thanks, Maxim. I think what's cool about DORA is in terms of using metrics, there's always this challenge called Goodhart's Law, right? So, whenever a metric becomes a target, the metric cease to be a good metric because people are going to find ways to game the metric. So, I think what's cool about DORA is that it actually offers not just one metric but four key metrics that bring balance to covering both the stability and velocity. So, when you look at DORA metrics, you can't just optimize for velocity and sacrificing your stability. But you have to look at all four metrics at the same time, and that's harder to game. So, I think that's why it's become more and more popular in the industry as the starting point for using metrics for data-driven engineering. VICTORIA: Yeah. And I like how DORA also represents it as the metrics and how they apply to where you are in the lifecycle of your product. So, I'm curious: with Merico, what kind of insights do you think engineering leaders can gain from having this data that will unlock some of their team's potential? MAXIM: So, I think one of the most foundational things before we get into any detailed metrics is I think it's more important than ever, especially given that so many of us are remote, right? Where the general processes of software engineering are generally difficult to understand, right? They're nuanced. They tend to kind of happen in relative isolation until a PR is reviewed and merged. And it can be challenging, of course, to understand what's being done, how consistently, how well, like, where are the good parts, where are the bad parts. And I think that problem gets really exasperated, especially in a remote setting where no one is necessarily in the same place. So, on a foundational level, I think we've really worked hard to solve that challenge, where just being able to see, like, how are we doing? And to that point, I think what we've found before anyone even dives too deep into all of the insights that we can deliver, I think there's a tremendous amount of appetite for anyone who's looking to get into that practice of constant improvement and figuring out how to level up the work they're doing, just setting close benchmarks, figuring out, like, okay, when we talk about more nebulous or maybe subjective terms like speed, or quality, what does good look like? What does consistent look like? Being able to just tie those things to something that really kind of unifies the vocabulary is something I always like to say, where, okay, now, even if we're not focused on a specific metric, or we don't have a really particular goal in mind that we want to assess, now we're at least starting the conversation as a team from a place where when we talk about quality, we have something that's shared between us. We understand what we're referring to. And when we're talking about speed, we can also have something consistent to talk about there. And within all of that, I think one of the most powerful things is it helps to really kind of ground the conversations around the trade-offs, right? There's always that common saying: the triangle of trade-offs is where it's, like, you can have it cheap; you can have it fast, and you can have it good, but you can only have two. And I think with DORA, with all of these different frameworks with many metrics, it helps to really solidify what those trade-offs look like. And that's, for me at least, been one of the most impactful things to watch: is our global users have really started evolving their practices with it. HENRY: Yeah. And I want to add to Maxim's answer. But before that, I just want to quickly mention how our products are structured. So, Merico actually has an open-source component and a proprietary component. So, the open-source component is called Apache DevLake. It's an open-source project we created first within Merico and later on donated to Apache Software Foundation. And now, it's one of the most popular engineering metrics tool out there. And then, on top of that, we built a SaaS offering called DevInsight Cloud, which is powered by Apache DevLake. So, with DevLake, the open-source project, you can set up your data connections, connect DevLake to all of the dev tools you're using, and then we collect data. And then we provide many different flavors of dashboards for our users. And many of those dashboards are structured, and there are different questions engineering teams might want to ask. For example, like, how fast are we responding to our customer requirement? For that question, we will look at like, metrics like change lead time, or, like, for a question, how accurate is our planning for the sprint? In that case, the dashboard will show metrics relating to the percentage of issues we can deliver for every sprint for our plan. So, that's sort of, you know, based on the questions that the team wants to answer, we provide different dashboards that help them extract insights using the data from their DevOps tools. JOE: It's really interesting you donated it to Apache. And I feel like the hybrid SaaS open-source model is really common. And I've become more and more skeptical of it over the years as companies start out open source, and then once they start getting competitors, they change the license. But by donating it to Apache, you sort of sidestep that potential trust issue. MAXIM: Yeah, you've hit the nail on the head with that one because, in many ways, for us, engaging with Apache in the way that we have was, I think, ultimately born out of the observations we had about the shortcomings of other products in the space where, for one, very practical. We realized quickly that if we wanted to offer the most complete visibility possible, it would require connections to so many different products, right? I think anyone can look at their engineering toolchain and identify perhaps 7, 9, 10 different things they're using on a day-to-day basis. Oftentimes, those aren't shared between companies, too. So, I think part one was just figuring out like, okay, how do we build a framework that makes it easy for developers to build a plugin and contribute to the project if there's something they want to incorporate that isn't already supported? And I think that was kind of part one. Part two is, I think, much more important and far more profound, which is developer trust, right? Where we saw so many different products out there that claimed to deliver these insights but really had this kind of black-box approach, right? Where data goes in, something happens, insights come out. How's it doing that? How's it weighting things? What's it calculating? What variables are incorporated? All of that is a mystery. And that really leads to developers, rightfully, not having a basis to trust what's actually being shown to them. So, for us, it was this perspective of what's the maximum amount of transparency that we could possibly offer? Well, open source is probably the best answer to that question. We made sure the entirety of the codebase is something they can take a look at, they can modify. They can dive into the underlying queries and algorithms and how everything is working to gain a total sense of trust in how is this thing working? And if I need to modify something to account for some nuanced details of how our team works, we can also do that. And to your point, you know, I think it's definitely something I would agree with that one of the worst things we see in the open-source community is that companies will be kind of open source in name only, right? Where it's really more of marketing or kind of sales thing than anything, where it's like, oh, let's tap into the good faith of open source. But really, somehow or another, through bait and switch, through partial open source, through license changes, whatever it is, we're open source in name only but really, a proprietary, closed-source product. So, for us, donating the core of DevLake to the Apache Foundation was essentially our way of really, like, putting, you know, walking the talk, right? Where no one can doubt at this point, like, oh, is this thing suddenly going to have the license changed? Is this suddenly going to go closed-source? Like, the answer to that now is a definitive no because it is now part of that ecosystem. And I think with the aspirations we've had to build something that is not just a tool but, hopefully, long-term becomes, like, foundational technology, I think that gives people confidence and faith that this is something they can really invest in. They can really plumb into their processes in a deep and meaningful way with no concerns whatsoever that something is suddenly going to change that makes all of that work, you know, something that they didn't expect. JOE: I think a lot of companies guard their source code like it's their secret sauce, but my experience has been more that it's the secret shame [laughs]. HENRY: [laughs] MAXIM: There's no doubt in my role with, especially our open-source product driving our community we've really seen the magic of what a community-driven product can be. And open source, I think, is the most kind of a true expression of a community-driven product, where we have a Slack community with nearly 1,000 developers in it now. Naturally, right? Some of those developers are in there just to ask questions and answer questions. Some are intensely involved, right? They're suggesting improvements. They're suggesting new features. They're finding ways to refine things. And it really is that, like, fantastic culture that I'm really proud that we've cultivated where best idea ships, right? If you've got a good idea, throw it into a GitHub issue or a comment. Let's see how the community responds to it. Let's see if someone wants to pick it up. Let's see if someone wants to submit a PR. If it's good, it goes into production, and then the entire community benefits. And, for me, that's something I've found endlessly exciting. HENRY: Yeah. I think Joe made a really good point on the secret sauce part because I don't think the source code is our secret sauce. There's no rocket science in DevLake. If we break it down, it's really just some UI UX plus data pipelines. I think what's making DevLake successful is really the trust and collaboration that we're building with the open-source community. When it comes to trust, I think there are two aspects. First of all, trust on the metric accuracy, right? Because with a lot of proprietary software, you don't know how they are calculating the metrics. If people don't know how the metrics are calculated, they can't really trust it and use it. And secondly, is the trust that they can always use this software, and there's no vendor lock-in. And when it comes to collaboration, we were seeing many of our data sources and dashboards they were contributed not by our core developers but by the community. And the communities really, you know, bring in their insights and their use cases into DevLake and make DevLake, you know, more successful and more applicable to more teams in different areas of soft engineering. MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you’re tight on time and investment, which is why we’ve created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product’s next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at tbot.io/entrepreneurs. VICTORIA: I understand you've taken some innovative approaches on using AI in your open-source repositories to respond to issues and questions from your developers. So, can you tell me a little bit more about that? HENRY: Absolutely. I self-identify as a builder. And one characteristic of builder is to always chase after the dream of building infinite things within the finite lifespan. So, I was always thinking about how we can be more productive, how we can, you know, get better at getting better. And so, this year, you know, AI is huge, and there are so many AI-powered tools that can help us achieve more in terms of delivering software. And then, internally, we had a hackathon, and there's one project, which is an AI-powered coding assistant coming out of it called DevChat. And we have made it public at devchat.ai. But we've been closely following, you know, what are the other AI-powered tools that can make, you know, software developers' or open-source maintainers' lives easier? And we've been observing that there are more and more open-source projects adopting AI chatbots to help them handle, you know, respond to GitHub issues. So, I recently did a case study on a pretty popular open-source project called LangChain. So, it's the hot kid right now in the AI space right now. And it's using a chatbot called Dosu to help respond to issues. I had some interesting findings from the case study. VICTORIA: In what ways was that chatbot really helpful, and in what ways did it not really work that well? HENRY: Yeah, I was thinking of how to measure the effectiveness of that chatbot. And I realized that there is a feature that's built in GitHub, which is the reaction to comment. So, how the chatbot works is whenever there is a new issue, the chatbot would basically retrieval-augmented generation pipeline and then using ORM to generate a response to the issue. And then there's people leave reactions to that comment by the chatbot, but mostly, it's thumbs up and thumbs down. So, what I did is I collect all of the issues from the LangChain repository and look at how many thumbs up and thumbs down Dosu chatbot got, you know, from all of the comments they left with the issues. So, what I found is that over across 2,600 issues that Dosu chatbot helped with, it got around 900 thumbs ups and 1,300 thumbs down. So, then it comes to how do we interpret this data, right? Because it got more thumbs down than thumbs up doesn't mean that it's actually not useful or harmful to the developers. So, to answer that question, I actually looked at some examples of thumbs-up and thumb-down comments. And what I found is the thumb down doesn't mean that the chatbot is harmful. It's mostly the developers are signaling to the open-source maintainers that your chatbot is not helping in this case, and we need human intervention. But with the thumbs up, the chatbot is actually helping a lot. There's one issue where people post a question, and the chatbot just wrote the code and then basically made a suggestion on how to resolve the issue. And the human response is, "Damn, it worked." And that was very surprising to me, and it made me consider, you know, adopting similar technology and AI-powered tools for our own open-source project. VICTORIA: That's very cool. Well, I want to go back to the beginning of Merico. And when you first got started, and you were trying to understand your customers and what they need, was there anything surprising in that early discovery process that made you change your strategy? HENRY: So, one challenge we faced when we first explored open-source funding allocation problem space is that our algorithm looks at the Git repository. But with software engineering, especially with open-source collaboration, there are so many activities that are happening outside of open-source repos on GitHub. For example, I might be an evangelist, and my day-to-day work might be, you know, engaging in community work, talking about the open-source project conference. And all of those things were not captured by our algorithm, which was only looking at the GitHub repository at the time. So, that was one of the technical challenge that we faced and led us to switch over to more of the system-driven metrics side. VICTORIA: Gotcha. Over the years, how has Merico grown? What has changed between when you first started and today? HENRY: So, one thing is the team size. When we just got started, we only have, you know, the three co-founders and Maxim. And now we have grown to a team of 70 team members, and we have a fully distributed team across multiple continents. So, that's pretty interesting dynamics to handle. And we learned a lot of how to build effective team and a cohesive team along the way. And in terms of product, DevLake now, you know, has more than 900 developers in our Slack community, and we track over 360 companies using DevLake. So, definitely, went a long way since we started the journey. And yeah, tomorrow we...actually, Maxim and I are going to host our end-of-year Apache DevLake Community Meetup and featuring Nathen Harvey, the Google's DORA team lead. Yeah, definitely made some progress since we've been working on Merico for four years. VICTORIA: Well, that's exciting. Well, say hi to Nathen for me. I helped takeover DevOps DC with some of the other organizers that he was running way back in the day, so [laughs] that's great. What challenges do you see on the horizon for Merico and DevLake? MAXIM: One of the challenges I think about a lot, and I think it's front of mind for many people, especially with software engineering, but at this point, nearly every profession, is what does AI mean for everything we're doing? What does the future look like where developers are maybe producing the majority of their code through prompt-based approaches versus code-based approaches, right? How do we start thinking about how we coherently assess that? Like, how do you maybe redefine what the value is when there's a scenario where perhaps all coders, you know, if we maybe fast forward a few years, like, what if the AI is so good that the code is essentially perfect? What does success look like then? How do you start thinking about what is a good team if everyone is shooting out 9 out of 10 PRs nearly every time because they're all using a unified framework supported by AI? So, I think that's certainly kind of one of the challenges I envision in the future. I think, really, practically, too, many startups have been contending with the macroclimate within the fundraising climates. You know, I think many of the companies out there, us included, had better conditions in 2019, 2020 to raise funds at more favorable valuations, perhaps more relaxed terms, given the climate of the public markets and, you know, monetary policy. I think that's, obviously, we're all experiencing and has tightened things up like revenue expectations or now higher kind of expectations on getting into a highly profitable place or, you know, the benchmark is set a lot higher there. So, I think it's not a challenge that's unique to us in any way at all. I think it's true for almost every company that's out there. It's now kind of thinking in a more disciplined way about how do you kind of meet the market demands without compromising on the product vision and without compromising on the roadmap and the strategies that you've put in place that are working but are maybe coming under a little bit more pressure, given kind of the new set of rules that have been laid out for all of us? VICTORIA: Yeah, that is going to be a challenge. And do you see the company and the product solving some of those challenges in a unique way? HENRY: I've been thinking about how AI can fulfill the promise of making developers 10x developer. I'm an early adopter and big fan of GitHub Copilot. I think it really helps with writing, like, the boilerplate code. But I think it's improving maybe my productivity by 20% to 30%. It's still pretty far away from 10x. So, I'm thinking how Merico's solutions can help fill the gap a little bit. In terms of Apache DevLake and its SaaS offering, I think we are helping with, like, the team collaboration and measuring, like, software delivery performance, how can the team improve as a whole. And then, recently, we had a spin-off, which is the AI-powered coding assistant DevChat. And that's sort of more on the empowering individual developers with, like, testing, refactoring these common workflows. And one big thing for us in the future is how we can combine these two components, you know, team collaboration and improvement tool, DevLake, with the individual coding assistant, DevChat, how they can be integrated together to empower developers. I think that's the big question for Merico ahead. JOE: Have you used Merico to judge the contributions of AI to a project? HENRY: [laughs] So, actually, after we pivot to engineering metrics, we focus now less on individual contribution because that sometimes can be counterproductive. Because whenever you visualize that, then people will sometimes become defensive and try to optimize for the metrics that measure individual contributions. So, we sort of...nowadays, we no longer offer that kind of metrics within DevLake, if that makes sense. MAXIM: And that kind of goes back to one of Victoria's earlier questions about, like, what surprised us in the journey. Early on, we had this very benevolent perspective, you know, I would want to kind of underline that, that we never sought to be judging individuals in a negative way. We were looking to find ways to make it useful, even to a point of finding ways...like, we explored different ways to give developers badges and different kind of accomplishment milestones, like, things to kind of signal their strengths and accomplishments. But I think what we've found in that journey is that...and I would really kind of say this strongly. I think the only way that metrics of any kind serve an organization is when they support a healthy culture. And to that end, what we found is that we always like to preach, like, it's processes, not people. It's figuring out if you're hiring correctly, if you're making smart decisions about who's on the team. I think you have to operate with a default assumption within reason that those people are doing their best work. They're trying to move the company forward. They're trying to make good decisions to better serve the customers, better serve the company and the product. With that in mind, what you're really looking to do is figure out what is happening within the underlying processes that get something from thought to production. And how do you clear the way for people? And I think that's really been a big kind of, you know, almost like a tectonic shift for our company over the years is really kind of fully transitioning to that. And I think, in some ways, DORA has represented kind of almost, like, a best practice for, like, processes over people, right? It's figuring out between quality and speed; how are you doing? Where are those trade-offs? And then, within the processes that account for those outcomes, how can you really be improving things? So, I would say, for us, that's, like, been kind of the number one thing there is figuring out, like, how do we keep doubling down on processes, not people? And how do we really make sure that we're not just telling people that we're on their side and we're taking a, you know, a very humanistic perspective on wanting to improve the lives of people but actually doing it with the product? HENRY: But putting the challenge on measuring individual contributions aside, I'm as curious as Joe about AI's role in software engineering. I expect to see more and more involvement of AI and gradually, you know, replacing low-level and medium-level and, in the future, even high-level tasks for humans so we can just focus on, like, the objective instead of the implementation. VICTORIA: I can imagine, especially if you're starting to integrate AI tools into your systems and if you're growing your company at scale, some of the ability to have a natural intuition about what's going on it really becomes a challenge, and the data that you can derive from some of these products could help you make better decisions and all different types of things. So, I'm kind of curious to hear from Joe; with your history of open-source contribution and being a part of many different development teams, what kind of information do you wish that you had to help you make decisions in your role? JOE: Yeah, that's an interesting question. I've used some tools that try to identify problem spots in the code. But it'd be interesting to see the results of tools that analyze problem spots in the process. Like, I'd like to learn more about how that works. HENRY: I'm curious; one question for Joe. What is your favorite non-AI-powered code scanning tool that you find useful for yourself or for your team? JOE: I think the most common static analysis tool I use is something to find the Git churn in a repository. Some of this probably is because I've worked mostly on projects these days with dynamic languages. So, there's kind of a limit to how much static analysis you can do of, you know, a Ruby or a Python codebase. But just by analyzing which parts of the application changed the most, help you find which parts are likely to be the buggiest and the most complex. I think every application tends to involve some central model. Like, if you're making an e-commerce site, then probably products are going to have a lot of the core logic, purchases will have a lot of the core logic. And identifying those centers of gravity just through the Git statistics has helped me find places that need to be reworked. HENRY: That's really interesting. Is it something like a hotspot analysis? And when you find a hotspot, then would you invest more resources in, like, refactoring the hotspot to make it more maintainable? JOE: Right, exactly. Like, you can use the statistics to see which files you should look at. And then, usually, when you actually go into the files, especially if you look at some of the changes to the files, it's pretty clear that it's become, you know, for example, a class has become too large, something has become too tightly coupled. HENRY: Gotcha. VICTORIA: Yeah. And so, if you could go back in time, five years ago and give yourself some advice when you first started along this journey, what advice would you give yourself? MAXIM: I'll answer the question in two ways: first for the company and then for myself personally. I think for the company, what I would say is, especially when you're in that kind of pre-product market fit space, and you're maybe struggling to figure out how to solve a challenge that really matters, I think you need to really think carefully about, like, how would you yourself be using your product? And if you're finding reasons, you wouldn't, like, really, really pay careful attention to those. And I think, for us, like, early on in our journey, we ultimately kind of found ourselves asking, we're like, okay, we're a smaller earlier stage team. Perhaps, like, small improvements in productivity or quality aren't going to necessarily move the needle. That's one of the reasons maybe we're not using this. Maybe our developers are already at bandwidth. So, it's not a question of unlocking more bandwidth or figuring out where there's kind of weak points or bottlenecks at that level, but maybe how can we dial in our own processes to let the whole team function more effectively. And I think, for us, like, the more we started thinking through that lens of, like, what's useful to us, like, what's solving a pain point for us, I think, in many ways, DevLake was born out of that exact thinking. And now DevLake is used by hundreds of companies around the world and has, you know, this near thousand developer community that supports it. And I think that's testament to the power of that. For me, personally, if I were to kind of go back five years, you know, I'm grateful to say there isn't a whole lot I would necessarily change. But I think if there's anything that I would, it would just to be consistently more brave in sharing ideas, right? I think Merico has done a great job, and it's something I'm so proud of for us as a team of really embracing new ideas and really kind of making sure, like, best idea ships, right? There isn't a title. There isn't a level of seniority that determines whether or not someone has a right to suggest something or improve something. And I think with that in mind, for me as a technical person but not a member of technical staff, so to speak, I think there was many occasions, for me personally, where I felt like, okay, maybe because of that, I shouldn't necessarily weigh in on certain things. And I think what I've found, and it's a trust-building thing as well, is, like, even if you're wrong, even if your suggestion may be misunderstands something or isn't quite on target, there's still a tremendous amount of value in just being able to share a perspective and share a recommendation and push it out there. And I think with that in mind, like, it's something I would encourage myself and encourage everybody else in a healthy company to feel comfortable to just keep sharing because, ultimately, it's an accuracy-by-volume game to a certain degree, right? Where if I come up with one idea, then I've got one swing at the bat. But if us as a collective come up with 100 ideas that we consider intelligently, we've got a much higher chance of maybe a handful of those really pushing us forward. So, for me, that would be advice I would give myself and to anybody else. HENRY: I'll follow the same structure, so I'll start by the advice in terms of company and advice to myself as an individual. So, for a company level, I think my advice would be fail fast because every company needs to go through this exploration phase trying to find their product-market fit, and then they will have to test, you know, a couple of ideas before they find the right fit for themselves, the same for us. And I wish that we actually had more in terms of structure in exploring these ideas and set deadlines, you know, set milestones for us to quickly test and filter out bad ideas and then accelerate the exploration process. So, fail fast would be my suggestion at the company level. From an individual level, I would say it's more adapting to my CTO role because when I started the company, I still had that, you know, graduate student hustle mindset. I love writing code myself. And it's okay if I spent 100% of my time writing code when the company was, you know, at five people, right? But it's not okay [chuckles] when we have, you know, a team of 40 engineers. So, I wish I had that realization earlier, and I transitioned to a real CTO role earlier, focusing more, like, on technical evangelism or building out the technical and non-technical infrastructure to help my engineering teams be successful. VICTORIA: Well, I really appreciate that. And is there anything else that you all would like to promote today? HENRY: So if you're, you know, engineering leaders who are looking to measure, you know, some metrics and adopt a more data-driven approach to improving your software delivery performance, check out Apache DevLake. It's open-source project, free to use, and it has some great dashboards, support, various data resources. And join our community. We have a pretty vibrant community on Slack. And there are a lot of developers and engineering leaders discussing how they can get more value out of data and metrics and improve software delivery performance. MAXIM: Yeah. And I think to add to that, something I think we've found consistently is there's plenty of data skeptics out there, rightfully so. I think a lot of analytics of every kind are really not very good, right? And so, I think people are rightfully frustrated or even traumatized by them. And for the data skeptics out there, I would invite them to dive into the DevLake community and pose your challenges, right? If you think this stuff doesn't make sense or you have concerns about it, come join the conversation because I think that's really where the most productive discussions end up coming from is not from people mutually high-fiving each other for a successful implementation of DORA. But the really exciting moments come from the people in the community who are challenging it and saying like, "You know what? Like, here's where I don't necessarily think something is useful or I think could be improved." And it's something that's not up to us as individuals to either bless or to deny. That's where the community gets really exciting is those discussions. So, I would say, if you're a data skeptic, come and dive in, and so long as you're respectful, challenge it. And by doing so, you'll hopefully not only help yourself but really help everybody, which is what I love about this stuff so much. JOE: I'm curious, does Merico use Merico? HENRY: Yes. We've been dogfooding ourself a lot. And a lot of the product improvement ideas actually come from our own dogfooding process. For example, there was one time that we look at a dashboard that has this issue change lead time. And then we found our issue, change lead time, you know, went up in the past few month. And then, we were trying to interpret whether that's a good thing or a bad thing because just looking at a single metric doesn't tell us the story behind the change in the metrics. So, we actually improved the dashboard to include some, you know, covariates of the metrics, some other related metrics to help explain the trend of the metric. So yeah, dogfooding is always useful in improving product. VICTORIA: That's great. Well, thank you all so much for joining. I really enjoyed our conversation. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.