Can Agile tools really teach you Agile practices, or are they just supporting players? Join Brian and Steve Spearman as they unpack the myths surrounding tools like Jira and discover why the process should always come before the tool. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner and Steve Spearman debunk common myths about Agile tools, with a special focus on Jira. They stress that tools are not a replacement for Agile principles, and the process should guide the choice of tools, not the reverse. The conversation dives into how Agile tools can enhance transparency, why communication is key to effective Agile practices, and the importance of adapting tools to fit unique team workflows. References and resources mentioned in the show: Steve Spearman #43: Cultivating Agile Team Culture in a Virtual World with Richard Cheng #29: Influencing Up with Scott Dunn #71: The World of DevOps with Carlos Nunez Jira Miro Mural Trello SAFe LeSS Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Steve Spearman is a Certified Scrum Trainer® and Agile coach, passionate about helping teams thrive, drive business improvements, and master the art of managing change. With expertise in Agile training, scaled Agile, and leadership, Steve empowers organizations to navigate their Agile journeys smoothly and effectively. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have a very good friend of mine, a mentor of mine, Mr. Steve Spearman is with me. Welcome to the podcast, Steve. Steve (00:14) Thank you, Brian. It's great to be here with you. Nice to see you. Brian (00:17) Nice to see you as well. Yeah, Steve helped me out when I was trying to become a CST and I got to learn a lot from him, watching him teach his classes. So he's a pro. He's a CST, he's a coach and trainer and if you're interested, I recommend his classes. I think he's an excellent trainer and would have no hesitation sending anyone to one of Steve's classes. We wanted to have Steve on because we had this topic that got, actually, this is a listener suggestion. So we're always happy to take listener suggestions. And this is one that one of you sent in saying that you wanted us to kind of dive into and discuss a little bit about myths that are out there about Agile tools. So Steve, what does that mean to you? are some of the, is there a main kind of myth that you? you've heard more often than others about Agile tools. Steve (01:16) I think, Brian, the one we hear all the time, right, is this one that essentially Jira is Agile, right? And we're like, well, Jira is a very popular tool for people to use with Agile. It's might or might not be like most of us who do this. That may not be our favorite, honestly, but it is very popular for some pretty good reasons. So that's, I think, the most common one. And then just the idea that somehow it gets to the confusion people have about being a methodology and stuff, right? That essentially, if you just would implement the tool, then you'd be doing Scrum well, right? And that would be the important thing when in fact, I think most of our recommendations would be a little bit the opposite of that, right? Which is to come up with your own approach to doing things in Scrum and then maybe figure out a tool that helps you with that. Brian (02:06) Yeah, I agree. I've heard that quite often. And I've encountered organizations in my career where I'll ask them if they're Agile or if they are familiar with or no Agile. yeah, we have JIRA. OK, well, not quite what I was asking, but I appreciate the sentiment. But yeah, I mean, I agree. There's probably some mixed reviews on that as a tool. Steve (02:24) Yeah. Brian (02:36) I mean, personally, I'll say I've used it to run, you know, Agile organizations before. I'm not a hater of it. I think it's fine. I think it works. I mean, I don't know what your opinion here is, Steve, but people often ask me if there's a tool I recommend to kind of run projects and. You know, my standard answer is there's not one that I think is better and outshines all the rest. I think they all have their strengths and weaknesses and you just kind of have to tweak and adjust them to make them match, you know, your process. But that's the key, right? Is that process over the tool. Steve (03:17) Yeah. I've, you know, Jira I think is popular for a lot of reasons. One is, usually it's about half the per seat cost of a lot of the other ones. And so that for a lot of companies right there, that's that's a pretty big factor thing. I liked about it. Maybe similar to your experience, Brian was that if you're a little bit more of a techie, it's pretty programmable. You can go in and you could tweak it and you can make it do all kinds of things. And so that's maybe it's strength and it's weakness that it takes a little more investment, but you can do quite a bit with. Brian (03:47) Yeah, I agree. It is pretty flexible. The main thing I try to tell people who use it and are asking about, this going to be viable? Will it work for our purposes? The main thing I think they have to understand is the history of it. The Jira is really a bug tracking software. Well, let me be clear. It was created as a bug tracking software, right? Right. Steve (04:12) Yeah, ticketing system in general, yeah. Brian (04:15) Right, a ticket system. And when you know that, and then you get into the nomenclature and you look at the layout of how everything is within it, that makes sense. can see, cause you know, like the standard thing there is an issue, right? There's different issue types, but the standard thing is an issue. Well, that's because it was meant to handle support issues. Steve (04:35) Yeah. And also the, you know, we commonly use the word tasks, of course, in Scrum, not an official thing, but a very common thing we talk about. And Jira speak is subtasks. And that's just history again, of, know, where it came from. And, you know, a long, long time ago, you had to have a plugin to Jira to do Agile. It was originally called, I believe, Grasshopper many, many years ago. And then they ended up just calling it like Jira Agile for a very long time. And then as... Brian (04:57) Yep. Steve (05:04) it became a bigger and bigger piece of their market, they just kind of wrapped it all up in JIRA now, I think. Brian (05:09) Yeah, we both been around long enough to have been part of those days. So I remember those very well. Yeah, I mean, like I said, I think JIRA will do a fine job for you if that's what you're with. wouldn't, you some organizations using it, I wouldn't say, by all means stop and use something else. I think you can make it work. I think you just have to look at it and say, all right, I understand this is based on this. So now I just need to configure it and adapt it. really for the process we want to do. And I know from my standpoint, I've used it multiple times where when you configure it the right way, it will handle things the way that you, at least from my perspective, the way I usually think is the right way to implement it with a team or an organization. So it works. I can make it work. It just takes some tweaking. I guess for mine, but yeah, it's not Agile. It's not being Agile just because you're using Jira. Steve (06:11) Yeah, and it's kind of the good and the bad thing about tools. think people like them because, you know, I can assign people tickets and things like that, you know, and so like, you know, people, it's clear who's got things and stuff. That's also a weakness though, too, because it, you might say, all I have to do is assign it in the tool and I don't have to talk to you now. I just say, look, you, I signed you this ticket or something. And that's not great from my perspective. And then the other one is that when you, when you, change states and things in the tool. That lets everybody know where things are, and that's good, and it gives you tons of reports and things, and people like those. But it's also less visual than a lot of us are, which back in the day, we liked sticky notes on a board. I that was the thing. That was the thing. And so what I'm leaning toward myself a little more these days is tools like Muro and Mural and so forth that are very visual, and they're often sticky note-based kind of things. Brian (06:55) Yeah. Steve (07:09) And that allows you to do a lot of the stuff we used to do physically, but they don't have the same reporting capabilities. And so that's where we get these trade-offs that I think we're going to see with these tools. Brian (07:22) Yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm the same way. And in fact, you know, when I said that earlier, someone asked me what my favorite tool is, you know, I said, my default answer is usually I don't have a favorite, but, if they push me, what I'll tell them is my favorite is just no cards or post-it notes, you know, like that's really, that's really what I, I have found works best. But, yeah, something like Miro or mural, I think is a, is a great, kind of virtual replacement for that. Cause it's just so open. and you can configure it however you want. It's not going to pull a report for you. You have to understand that. But it is the equivalent of having a virtual wipe. Steve (08:05) Exactly. And that's just, it's kind of a halfway physical feeling thing for our virtual world, which I think is helpful. Another interesting thing that I haven't played with a lot myself is that I know now in Miro, a sticky note in Miro can now be tied directly to a ticket in Jira. And so effectively you could have like the backend framework of Jira with a pretty front end on top of it or something is kind of how that looks like to me. So Brian (08:23) wow. Steve (08:32) I think that's got some promise maybe to give us both that physical thing that some of us miss while still having that reporting structure that a lot of our companies kind of want. Brian (08:41) Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, that speaks to what you were saying earlier about that it's highly configurable. can make it do a lot of things. You just have to get into the guts of it a little bit. Steve (08:52) You know, another thing about the tool market here, know, Brian, I was just looking this up, not like I knew this, but apparently it's a $5 billion market this year, Agile tool, and it is projected to go up to 13 in the next 10 or 12 years. So it's serious money. And this is why there are so many players now, right? I mean, the number of tools out there now is just, I've lost track of them. I know it's easily 20 plus tools out there. Now there are... Brian (08:57) Haha. Steve (09:19) Certainly the most common ones that we think about, Jira is probably number one. Asana comes up a lot. Rally is a long time one that comes up quite a bit. Interestingly, one of our biggest ones from years ago that did such great reporting out on the network for us and great Agile materials was version one. It was a super, super popular one. Brian (09:43) Yeah. Steve (09:45) And when you look now, they are a fairly small player percentage-wise in the market. So there's been a lot of shifting here. And of course, Microsoft shops tend to go toward Microsoft tools. And so there's that factor that goes on here, too. So it's not trivial to figure out which tool you would want to use here. Brian (10:02) Yeah, that often drives a lot of even discussion in the classes, I know, from people who say, what do you, you know, they'll bring up a term like feature and say, what's, how does Scrum define? Well, Scrum doesn't define what a feature is, you know, like that's, that's a term that comes from your tool. And, know, that your tool might have a definition for it, but you know, Scrum doesn't. So, yeah. Steve (10:23) One of the challenges I think is also that because scaled Agile has become such a big factor these days, almost all the tools have adopted their terminology. so terms like epics and features and things, most of these come from scaled Agile. And if you're doing scaled Agile, that's great, right? If you're not, it can be a little confusing. So for example, I think it was, Mike Cohn maybe, who said that epic, he famously defined as being a story too big to fit into a script. That was sort of the definition of an epic. And now in most of the tools, an epic is something giant that you have a handful of in three months or something. So yeah, there is some terminology confusion out there now as well. Brian (11:16) Yeah, which may have all come from just the tools. You hit on something a little bit earlier that I had as one of my kind of common myths here around tools. And that was that these Agile tools replace the need for just the typical communication that we have. Because as you said, I can assign something to someone else. that way, I don't have to talk to them. I just put it in their queue. And it's there. And I think that's a huge myth here with the Agile tools is, you know, my, my, my goal with any kind of tool, whether it's a software tool or whether it's a, a template or something that I'm using for a specific thing, like story mapping or whatever, my, my goal for any of those things is that it drives conversation, right? That it is an encourager of conversation, not that it is something that takes away from or detracts. from conversation and communication. So I think that's a big myth sometimes is that people, even if it's unspoken, right, there's just sort of with some people an assumption that because the tool communicates and because the tool can communicate between people, I don't have to actually talk to anyone. And that's that couldn't be further from the truth to do Scrum well. Steve (12:33) I think it gets us to another subtle thing in the scrum that you know scrum that could say more clearly maybe than it does. But that is shown as a good pattern in our pattern site, you know, the one called scrumplop.org. The idea that we should swarm as teams, you know, is something that I think a lot of us feel is a really important concept. And swarming is this kind of strange idea that says you know, don't give everybody their own work item and then just say disappear, go do it, you know, good luck. Instead, we try to work more closely like teams on the same items, divided up, work together closely. And this of course involves a lot of communication, a lot of needing to talk to each other. And so sometimes people say, well, can we just send out a Slack message or something, you know, every now and then and say, hey, you know, I'm done with mine. You can, but I think it's sort of missing the the really cool back and forth of a true swarming culture where it's like, hey, is anybody ready to pick up a piece of code and run the testing on this one? I'm gonna move on to the next one. Swarming was this idea of doing things in short cycles and gets into issues of test-driven development and things like this. so none of the tools really help you with that concept at all. And they may even hurt you with it little bit, in my opinion. Brian (13:49) Yeah, absolutely agree. And I'm absolutely on board with you. I think that's such a vital component of it. I tell people in classes, you know, I know sometimes people get a little frustrated with sports analogies, but I tell them, you know, Scrum is a sports analogy at its core. You know, it's a rugby thing. the other thing I kind of think about is if you've ever gone to see, and I know lots of us have done this in our life, but you've ever seen a kid sport kind of team sport. If you ever stand on the sidelines of a kid's soccer or most of you out there, most of the world would say football. But you know, if you ever stand on a side of a field like that, what the coaches are constantly yelling at the kids is talk to each other, right? Communicate, talk to each other. And they recognize, you you recognize in that kind of a team sport how important it is to, you know, call for the ball or or just let people know where you are or where you're going. And that same thing is what we want with our Scrum teams. We want people to be able to just constantly talk to each other. So you're right. I think sometimes the tool might actually get in the way of that communication and just could create some communication problems. Which tool are we talking on? Which tool do I look for for that kind of a conversation or whatever? And it just can get lost in the shuffle sometimes. Steve (15:13) You know, the rugby analogy is such a core one for us, but it's getting to be kind of old history now because the whole rugby analogy came out of this original lean paper, right? Long, long time ago. And the reason they chose rugby, you know, is one of the reasons they chose rugby. Rugby is such an interactive thing. So unlike American football where, you know, you run down the field and you can, you know, you can only throw the ball once and then you run and try not to get tackled. In rugby, you throw the ball back and forth constantly. Continuous interaction and basically the guys from Toyota said look we got to learn to treat our teams like rugby teams When they're on the field don't be on the sideline yelling throw it to Brian You know let them figure it out themselves, and that's the whole concept of a self-managing team Which you know is a really big concept for us in scrum and one that a lot of companies struggle with Brian (15:54) You By the way, if there was anything being yelled with my name on it from the sideline, would not be throw it to Brian. It would be don't throw it to Brian. That would be the response. Yeah, absolutely agree. What else, Steve? What other kind of myths have you heard or do you commonly hear about Agile tools? Steve (16:24) I think one of them is the idea that there is a right tool because there are real pros and cons to all the tools and some of them are much more advanced than others and yet some of them are a lot more expensive than others. Some of them are tuned for people who work in Microsoft shops. Some of them are tied to particular tools like GitHub or something like that. So figuring out the right tool is a non-trivial exercise, I guess is what I would say. And especially if you're going to wedge yourself to a tool, I think doing some prototyping, some research. The good news is the vast majority of them have free versions. You can go out and try. I often get asked things like, are you going to teach us Jira in this class or something? And the answer is no. No, I'm not. It's just one of 20 plus tools. But the other thing is that The good news is tools are a lot simpler than Scrum and Agile are. Scrum and Agile are tricky, they're subtle, they're hard to understand. They're a lot about humans and interactions and patterns and these tricky things. Tools are relatively straightforward and there are free videos on how to use Jira out there. There's a public version of it you can go get and it's true for the others too. So anybody who's really looking for a tool, that'd be my recommendation. Go out and... Find a few of popular ones, go check them out, get a free version, watch some videos. I don't think you'll probably find you a class for that. Brian (17:54) Yeah, I agree. I mean, and if you do, know, you know, again, don't want to make this sound like we're only talking about Jira, but I know for things like that, I've seen, you know, meetup groups that are dedicated to those purposes that you can find on like meetup.com or other things where you can, you know, maybe go once a month or so and learn something about it for free. So there's lots of stuff like that that's out there. But yeah, I absolutely agree that, you know, As I said, I don't recommend one specific tool. And I think the thing that's kind of really important there when you're selecting a tool is to know what your process is first. Don't get the tool to set your process, find what your process should be, and then find the tool that's going to fit with that. It's the whole individuals and interactions over processes and tools. We don't want the tool to drive what we do. And unfortunately, I've been a part of several organizations where, hey, we use this tool and the tool only works this way. So that's the way we work, whether it's right or wrong for us. And that's just a terrible way going about it. Steve (19:03) Yeah. And unfortunately, most of the tools do force you to some degree into their approach, right? Because there is a struggle, I'm sure, for toolmakers between you could make it completely general, like here's some sticky notes, just go do whatever with them, you know, which is kind of what you do with a Miro or a Miro board. But most of them have tried to make it more, you know, you do this and then you do this and then you do this and it kind of leads you through it. And that seems like it would be helpful, right? But at the same time, it means they've already decided that the right sequence is to do this and to do this and to do this. And so just got to watch out for when is the tool prescribing your approach and when is it there to facilitate your approach. Brian (19:50) Yeah, I agree. I'll tell you another one that I've heard quite often that I always kind of makes the hair on my spine kind of stand on end is when people seem to take this approach that the Agile tool itself is going to teach them how to become Agile. You know, it's kind of akin to the idea of because we have Jira, we're Agile or some, you know, fill in the blank or whatever tool it is that you would be using. But yeah, I've seen different teams or organizations that take that approach of, well, we're buying this software. And so we'll learn by using this software how to be Agile because it's an Agile tool. It's an Agile software. So everything we need will just be, we'll come by osmosis because we have this tool in place. yeah, I found that to be just a terrible approach. If you don't have some kind of a some guide, right? If you don't have somebody to guide you through that in any way, shape or form, then you're lost in the wilderness. You just don't have anyone to help you find your way. And the fact that you have a tool that could be useful doesn't mean it's going to teach you how to be useful, right? You have to know, knowing Agile is not knowing the tool. Steve (21:11) It's like, imagine going to a Ferrari dealer and deciding you're going to buy a Ferrari. And you've driven a Honda Civic, so you feel pretty comfortable with driving. And they give you a 10-minute overview of the dashboard of the Ferrari that you just purchased. And they say, I hear you're planning on racing professionally next month. Good luck with that. Brian (21:17) Right. Steve (21:37) And because I can sort of drive the car, I can therefore win races, you know, at the, no, right? No. So now we both are going to be a little biased here as trainers, obviously, but I think we pretty strongly feel like without somebody to help guide you through the subtleties of things like Scrum and Agile thinking, you may let the tools dictate and that's not the intent at all. It should be your team comes up with what makes your team be amazing. Brian (21:48) Right. Steve (22:05) And we own our own processes in Scrum, right? That's a key concept is that Scrum tries not to dictate processes and it wants you to continually evolve them. And so even the thinking that says there's a right way to do it is actually incorrect Agile thinking. so, yeah, tools are not gonna be a lot of Brian (22:24) Yeah, I agree. We might be a little biased because of what we do, but you know, I like your analogy. I'll give you another one. if you are just because you buy a parachute doesn't mean you know how to skydive, right? And no one would would buy a parachute and think, I know everything. Just I'll just use it and I'll learn how to do it because I'll jump out the plane and you know, I'll learn how to skydive. Well, no, you go through training. figure it out, you probably do a lot of tests and things, so that by the time you get up there, you know exactly what you're doing. you've gone through all the safety checks and all those other kind of things. Nobody would see those things as being synonymous, but somehow we do that in the Agile community sometimes, as we see the tool as synonymous with knowing Agile. Steve (23:12) It's a really good example, though I like the parachute. I have never parachuted because I find it terrifying. But if you were going to be a skydiver, this is an area where there is a high cost of failure. It's like one of these things where a certain kind of failure you can only do once because you won't have a second opportunity. And so one of the things that is kind of an integral idea in Agile thinking is that we like to make Brian (23:18) Neither have I. You Steve (23:41) experimentation and failure inexpensive. And so one of the whole concepts of why we often encourage things like short sprints and scrum is the idea that we want you to feel free to experiment with your processes and to make mistakes. And I'm sure many of you out there have heard the fail fast thing we say all the time, right? And all of this comes out of this mindset of making failure affordable and learning part of the culture. And so all of that is very different than any of these kind of instruction-based follow a tool sheet, follow a standard methodology of Agile or something. None of that is really the right thinking according to the way the Agile Scrum people see the world. Brian (24:26) Yeah, I agree. Any others that have crossed your path that you would call out? Steve (24:33) You know, it's really hard to avoid the thousand pound gorilla here, which is safe, because safe has so dictated the tools and things that you just have to think through that. I don't want to get us off into scaling, because that's obviously another very large conversation of its own. I have come to think of safe this way. that scaled Agile is as Agile as many large companies can tolerate. Which is to say, it's not my favorite, but it is very prevalent out there. And so, you know, in some cases, you're not going to have a choice, right? Your company will have dictated a thing, whether it's safe or whether it's whatever it is. And just be aware that that decision is also reasonably tightly tied to these tools and things because... You know, you can get a really nice lightweight tool like say Trello, which is, you know, even free sometimes still. And that can be perfectly acceptable in, you know, nice small scrum team environments. But if you're going to do, you know, giant, you know, release train planning exercises, and you want the ability to put all this stuff into tools, then that will constrain you to a certain class of tools. Now it's a lot of them these days, but just be aware that how you choose to approach this and how heavy of a method you use. will also impact your tool choices. Brian (26:00) Yeah, I agree. I don't want to get, I know we're not going to dive off into the pros and cons of safe, but the kind of picture in my head that I always think about with safe is it's kind of like one of those Swiss Army knives that has a million different blades and attachments and things in there. It's designed to solve any possible problem. that you could encounter in that arena. you know, just like when you use a Swiss Army knife, you don't open all of them up and say, all right, well, I got to try to use them all at once. You find the one that you need and you use that one. So I don't think it's a problem to have the choice to use these various things. And when I've talked to really, you know, lifelong, safe trainers that really are successful with this, I find a similar attitude from them that it's not intended for you to have to implement every component. It's intended for you to find the things that fix the problems that you're encountering and then implement those things. And if you start to encounter other new problems, well, there's other parts of the framework that you can implement then that will help solve those issues for you. And I think that's one of the mistakes people make with SAFe sometimes is that they just You know, they take the whole, it's all or nothing. And while Scrum does say, hey, you have to implement all of this or you don't get the benefits of it, SAFe, I don't believe says that. At least I haven't heard trainers say that who teach it. So, yeah, yeah. Steve (27:43) It's more like a smorgasbord effectively, right? know, if you know different choices and maybe it's worth saying a word about why that is compared to because Scrum tries so hard to be a minimalist framework that it's sort of like saying, you know, I could choose not to eat vegetables and you know, that could be a good choice for me and the answer is no, that's not a good choice for you it turns out. You know, so Scrum, because it tries to tell you so little, it's basically telling you the stuff that is basically essential. You you just can't get along without it. So it's a super minimalist framework. Some of you, I'm sure, are familiar with what happened in the last version of the Scrum Guide, where, you know, typically, like with SAFe, when they add a new one, it gets bigger and bigger and bigger over time, right? And they add more and more details. And that's what people love about SAFe, right? You can go open up a page. and click on a keyword and open up another massive page of exactly how to do everything. And Scrum has taken the exact opposite philosophy to make it the most minimal framework they could. And they actually went from 18 pages to 13 pages in the last version of the Scrum Guide, taking all of the advice out, basically. And so we're just looking at two very different philosophies here. So Scrum is a minimalist framework. SAFe is the... I guess the Swiss army knife, if you will. I would like to say one comment about a Swiss army knife. I used to carry those many years ago, but essentially you have every tool in them and none of them are great, right? So every one of them is basically a tuned down version of the tool. So yeah, there's a corkscrew in there. It's not a very good corkscrew. And yes, there's a screwdriver in there. It's not a very good screwdriver. Brian (29:06) Ha ha ha. Steve (29:29) So I think sometimes over time we start to learn that you should have the right tool for the right job and not try to get by with the Swiss Army. Brian (29:38) Yeah, always whenever I saw, you know, whenever I would see a Swiss Army knife that would have the the kind of saw component of it, I always think, you know, it's it's it's it's, you know, two inches, three inches long. What kind of tree am I going to saw through? Steve (29:53) you have to be desperate, right? This would be like, I'm cutting my parachute cord or something, but. Brian (29:57) Right, exactly. Exactly. Well, I'll throw one more and then we'll we can call this. But there's one that I've heard that I just thought was I don't hear this as often, but I have started to hear it more. And that's just sort of it's kind of an attitude. It's this attitude of, hey, we're having a problem with and seems specifically around transparency. Right. The team is not being transparent. We're not having much transparency into how the work is going on. And so sometimes I've heard people kind of take this attitude of, well, you know, we're gonna implement this tool. And so by default, we're gonna increase our transparency, because now we're using this tool. And I would caution people on that as well, say that that's not true at all. You know, it's the old phrase we used in computers, you know, way, way back when I was in elementary school was garbage in garbage out. And I think that applies to our tools as well, you know. We can get greater transparency through a tool, but it takes the right input. It takes the right effort. And you could still have the attitude of, I'm going to obscure the way that the work is really happening and do that through any tool. So the tool itself, I don't think it's going to do that. The tool could help you with it, but you have to deliberately seek that out. Steve (31:21) You know, I, it's such a mindset for me, this concept of things like transparency and how that relates to how we work as a team and swarming concepts and all these things kind of come together to make scrum a really an effective thing. And the problem sometimes is when you try to force things, it has the opposite effect. I'm, don't disagree with the scrum authors very often, but I very much do with what they did with the daily scrum, you know, and the daily scrum. used to have the three questions, And the three questions, you know, what did you do yesterday? What am I going to do today? You know, do I have any impediments? And then they made it longer. They added more words to it to try to clarify things, which was just more structure effectively. And then finally, in the last version of the Scrum Guide, they threw out the three questions. And I was really happy to see those go. because they sounded like a status report. And so guess what was happening to most organizations? They think of the Daily Scrum as a status report, which developers hate. And now as soon as there's this status call, then the managers are talking and they say, hey, did you hear there's a daily status call we can come to? And now they start coming to another meeting. And now you have completely destroyed the concept of this really simple meeting, which was effectively just to let team members coordinate their plans for the day. It's kind of a swarming based thing. And so it makes beautiful sense once you understand that, but it's misunderstood 90 % of the time because it just sounded like status. Brian (32:55) Now, but hey, pass the plate, because I'm a member of that church. I agree with you on that wholeheartedly. I've always said that, you know, I think it's just one of the things I try to tell people to come through classes. Hey, Scrum Masters, if you don't remember anything else about these events, right? If you forget, you know, six months from now, what the exact time box is on something, I'm not as concerned with that. Make sure you understand the purpose of each one. Make sure that you embed that and print that in your memory. I know what each of these meetings is there for, why we are meeting in that situation. And if you know that, then I don't care about the format. The format will flow from that, but we're accomplishing this purpose and we're gonna figure out the best way to do it. Steve (33:42) Yep, and we can even take that back to the tools and say, can make most tools work, right? As long as you get the freedom to use it as you, as a team, see fit. You know, one of the guys, the guy who created the kind of the opposite end of the spectrum scaling approach, Craig Larmann with LESS, he says, why do you need more than just a shared Google Doc to do everything? You know, why couldn't you just have your, you know, all your stuff up there in a spreadsheet and, know, good enough for what you needed to have visible and you can generate a few reports and maybe that's all you need and maybe you don't need a heavy tool. that, you know, so there's a spectrum of possibilities. Brian (34:21) Yeah, I mean, when teams started out, there weren't any tools, and that's what everyone was using, was things like that. So, yes, it's entirely possible. Very cheap. And you don't have to be a big organization. You don't have to have a massive budget for software. can use the tools available to you and get by very well. Well, this has been great. I really appreciate you taking the time, Steve. I love this discussion, and I hope that... Steve (34:43) Absolutely. Brian (34:51) For our listener who suggested this, that we kind of hit the nail on the head and gave you what you were hoping for in this one. But yeah, when it comes to Agile tools, Agile should drive the tool, not the other way around. The tool shouldn't drive how you do Agile. And I think that's kind of where I would sum it up. Any last thoughts? Steve (35:10) So if I was going to quote Craig Larvin one more time here, less is more sometimes. And so the concept of minimalism and being more about how you and your team work together and how your meetings work and how you respect each other and how you learn how to work effectively together, way more important than your tools. ideally, let your approaches dictate the tool. Try not to let the tool dictate your approaches. Brian (35:40) Awesome, yeah, completely agree. If you've been listening to Steve and feel like, I really clicked with that guy, I really resonate with the ways he's speaking on this stuff, I encourage you check out his course schedule. You can find that at the Scrum Alliance website and see what courses he's teaching and sign up for one. Because as I said, Steve's an excellent instructor. So Steve, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Steve (36:04) Thanks, Brian. It's been a pleasure to be here with you.

How does Agile fit into the fast-paced, high-stakes world of game development? Clinton Keith, author of Agile Game Development, spills the secrets from his time working with some of the top studios in the industry and explains why adapting Agile to gaming is both a challenge and a game-changer. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner and Clinton Keith dive into the unique dynamics of Agile in the gaming industry. Clinton shares stories from his decades-long career in game development, explaining how Agile methodologies have evolved in the industry and why traditional approaches often fail. They discuss the impact of deadlines, the influence of digital distribution, and how finding the "fun" in games is crucial for successful development. Clinton also provides valuable insights into modifying Agile practices to better fit the gaming world and the critical role leadership plays in fostering a productive Agile culture. References and resources mentioned in the show: Clinton Keith Agile Game Development: Build, Play, Repeat by Clinton Keith Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course Accurate Agile Planning Course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Clinton Keith is a seasoned game industry veteran turned Agile coach and author of Agile Game Development, 2nd Edition. With 25 years of experience as a programmer, CTO, and production director, Clinton now helps creative teams and studio leaders build better games through effective Scrum, Lean, and Kanban. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. Glad to have you back. We're here for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I am with you as always, Brian Milner. Today, have a very special guest. A very special guest was the word I was looking for, but somehow it came out wrong. A very special guest that I'm very excited about having with us, Mr. Clinton Keith is with us. Clinton Keith (00:17) You got it right the first time. Brian (00:23) Welcome in, Clinton. Clinton Keith (00:25) Hey Brian, thank you so much for the invitation. Brian (00:27) Yeah, very, very psyched, very excited to have Clinton on. Clinton is a CST, but more importantly, he's the author of a book called Agile Game Development. And he has been in the video game industry and working with different video game makers and production houses and things for a long, long time. And he told me he's been a video game maker since the seventies. So I said, well, that's great. Cause I've been a video game player since the seventies. So I'm sure we could cross. and have some overlapping stories here. Me from the consumer side. I wanted to have Clinton on because he's got this unique perspective of really how Agile has developed and how Agile is kind of implemented and works well in the gaming industry. So let me start with just asking you, Clinton, when you work with gaming companies and they are interested curious about Agile, what is sort of the main holdup or the main objection that they present to you when they first start working with you? Clinton Keith (01:37) Well, it's changed. mean, I've been an independent trainer CST since 2008. And back then it was like, this agile stuff doesn't, know, this won't work for us or it won't work for our role playing game or massively multiplayer online game. might work for these small games. But I think since then, what you've seen is there's just such a lot of bad implementations. We call cargo cult implementations of Agile, where we think that standing around in a circle and answering three questions a day is going to result in some productivity fairy flying over our heads and sprinkling this methodology dust on us and wonderful things will happen, where there's a discipline and a change in culture. And so people have seen a lot of poor agile implementations. But at the same time, continuing on with more traditional approaches as games get larger, teams get larger, projects get bigger, that they're saving the worst failures on not adopting a more iterative approach to game development. Brian (02:54) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mentioned that there's probably a lot of objection. There's a lot of the companies that kind of take that fixed scope, fixed schedule kind of approach to doing work and kind of think maybe Agile doesn't align to what we do or our industry or how we do things. Hopefully I'm not putting you on the spot too much, but do have any interesting stories or examples of things like that where you've worked with a company that maybe was just very, very resistant that you kind of, that they kind of turned around in the time you worked with them? Clinton Keith (03:36) Well, think one of the more clear examples and, and, know, I, being a project manager and someone who's a, started as a programmer and ran studios, you know, and we ended up shipping successful titles on schedule, on budget. that, when I work with teams that have true deadlines, you know, these are teams that, especially sports titles where. You know, if, you know, Madden football misses the launch of their next title at the beginning of the NFL season, they're going to lose half their sales as opposed to, you know, being told it's so called, have a deadline, but you know, that just to put pressure on the team. so when you have that kind of deadline, a do or die deadline, then it gets them serious about doing things like prioritizing scope. Brian (04:11) Yeah. Yeah. Clinton Keith (04:30) We're saying, it's like, hey, we have this new engine to render crowds in the stadium and this is going to be beautiful. And, and it's going to look like these are real stadiums filled with people. They're less willing to take that risk if it has to come out on that specific date. And so we prioritize scope by saying, Hey, we have 32 teams, you know, it be baseball or NFL or whatever. have so many stadiums, we have rosters, we have uniforms that have changed from year to year. Those are things that we have to get in. The things that are like a new technology for mud on the uniforms, well, we can take a different approach to that and say, those would be nice to have, but we're not going to bet our schedule on that. So those were the teams on what we call AAA games. They're games that have large staffs, huge budgets, hundreds of millions of dollars. They kind of learned those lessons early on and it really became proof that an agile approach of saying, prioritizing scope and managing scope and delivering things that work and that show increased value in terms of player fun on iteration, iteration basis was really the best approach to hitting those targets. Which again is really difficult for teams that really have those so -called hard deadlines. but was still with a fixed scope, that they want all those things and at the last minute, end up compromising quality, get those all the, to hit all those goals. Brian (06:06) I'm kind of curious about kind of the teaming aspect within the gaming industry because it seems like, and maybe I'm wrong here, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like more than some of the other industries in software development that it's a little more of the mercenary kind of attitude of, you know, kind of have the gun for hire that you bring in or guns for hire that you bring in to do some project or some game and then... then when the project wraps, they're gone. People float from place to place. Is it tough to generate, have teams go through stages of formation in that kind of environment? Clinton Keith (06:46) Right. Yeah, no, it's less so with now that we had mobile games, these mobile platforms come out where a lot of most of the effort actually is maintaining and building a live product and growing it over time, where it's like, instead of saying, you know, on traditional large games, we're going to spend two years with no customers, no feedback. We're going to build this huge game and then launch it all at once on a disc or on a cartridge. and then cross our fingers. And with that approach, usually with game development, the traditional approach is to have a documentation phase, a planning phase, a design phase, and then a pre -production phase where we build all the mechanics. And then a production phase where we create all the levels, build the storyline, something that people can play through 20, 30 hours. And then at the end of it, alpha beta phase where we fix all the bugs, make it run fast, find, know, make it fun and polish it and then get it out the door. and in terms of staffing, like what you described was very, yeah, it was the big challenge because in pre -production we, you know, we might want 50 people, 30 people. but then when we're building all this content and building the worlds, then we're growing to a couple hundred people and then you ship it on the disk. What do you do with those 200 people that are sitting around? And that's still on large games. You know, I work with some teams that are over a thousand people developing the game. And they're trying to address that problem by having, you know, large publishers or acquiring studios. And they'll have up to half a dozen studios in various locations around the world working on that, especially on building those worlds in that, that production phase. But then that introduces the problem of communication and overhead and time zones. And yeah, it's a very challenging problem that when I started in the game industry, know, a AAA game took less than 10 people, you know, sitting in a single room. Brian (08:53) Yeah, kind of, it's such a different paradigm now than it was. And the industry has changed so much, it seems like to me because, well, like for instance, my oldest daughter is a pretty avid gamer now as well. And when we were helping her get settled for her second year of college, we had to replace her monitor, know, so she had something to play on. And we walked in the Best Buy and I tried to explain to her that, Best Buy used to be a mecca for gamers. I remember going there regularly to stroll through the shelves of the boxes and kind of see what was on sale. Now, I can't remember the last time that I bought a physical media for a game. It's all downloaded. How has that changed just the process of developing games? I'm sure that's, previously when you had to have the gold disk version or whatever that was released. I'm sure there was much tighter timeframes, right? Is it much different now with being able to update over longer periods of time? Clinton Keith (10:03) Well, just from an Agile perspective, it's gotten much better. You know, we introduced Agile to our studio back 20 years ago, over 20 years ago. And, you know, back then, really, the retailers dominated the industry so much in terms of you had to sell Walmart on the game you were proposing to make, which meant that you had to write the 300 page document that they would approve. Brian (10:25) Yeah. Clinton Keith (10:32) before you even knew it was fun. It's even worse with some of the larger first party companies that own the consoles, that they would say, well, we have a slot for making this type of game, so you have to stay within that slot. And at the end of it, we will determine how many cartridges that we will manufacture for your first release. And so it's very restrictive in terms of how much change we could introduce into the game over the course of development and say, well, the game that we're making is kind of boring. But that's the agreement that we made with Target or Walmart. And so we have to kind of stick with that game. Whereas now you can get early versions, like in Steam, for example, early release. And you can start to get metrics or that if you're a a game that's already out on a platform like iPhone, you can introduce the idea of a new mechanic to a limited number of users to say, it's like, hey, let's release a version of this mechanic to people in the state of New York and see, observe how they're playing it, measure how they're playing it, how many times they come back to it, and then use that information to tweak the next two week iteration or release dozens of different versions of our game you know, to millions of people and see which version that's out there in the wild is getting more response. So we have the ability to, you know, be much more agile and actually measuring what our customers, our players are doing with our game. Brian (12:07) That's so interesting. You spoke earlier about kind of like the AAA games with like sports games and how they have much tighter deadlines and they're, they kind of, there's a big, big hit to them if they miss that deadline. What about the opposite? What about the teams that don't have those harsh deadlines? And I would imagine there's an entirely different problem for the product owners of just good enough. how do you... How do those product owners determine, yeah, we have enough or this is in good enough shape that we can release it and we can patch things later? Clinton Keith (12:44) think one of the biggest problems you see when you don't have a deadline is this. There's this famous quote, I forget the exact wording of it, is that really tight deadlines, know, kind of restricted, know, restricted, to call it use the word resources, but in terms of money and schedule and things like that, or how many people you have working on it, really focuses you on delivering. And this is something that is a problem for AAA games with no serious deadline is that to say it's the, get these incredibly vast ideas that take years to really show the benefit. And I had this big light bulb moment in my career. I was, I was, I did a lot of racing games really in my career and I was on a game. that had a racing mechanic is based on a movie like what some of the Bourne movies where you have like a 15 minute racing mechanic, know, chasing in the middle of the movie. So late in the development of the game, we had a little bit of extra time and our publisher said, hey, can you throw in like a very short 15 minute car chasing and with police chasing you through an open city. Now that mechanic, police chasing you through an open city, used to take us years to develop with artificial intelligence, know, with police chasing you through crowded traffic streets. And even after years of development, it didn't quite work right. The police would crash into everything and drive on walls and we couldn't get the physics right. You know, we're on a PlayStation or Xbox. You know, you couldn't spend a lot of AI effort, artificial intelligence, on getting that just right. So, but we only had like a month. And so we're sitting around thinking, what can we do? How can we get police chasing us? And so we started asking ourselves questions that we never did ask in the past. Like, why do we have police? You know, why do we have police chasing you? And the answer was that, well, it's to make you drive fast. You know, if you didn't have police chasing you, you know, it's a boring game. And so all we did was we just, instead we just had Brian (14:47) Mm. Right. Clinton Keith (15:02) We just monitored how fast the player was driving. And if he was driving a little bit too slow, we'd start playing a siren sound. They kept driving slow. started playing flashing lights off the geometry of the buildings around you, blue and red. And then if you continue driving slow, we just played a video of you being arrested. And that took like a couple of days instead of a couple of years. And when we focus tested it, pretty much, half of everyone thought they were really being chased by the police. The other half said, I thought I was being chased by police, but when I looked in the rear view mirror, I didn't see any police. And so we just took out the rear view mirror, tested it the next night. Everyone thought they were being chased by police. And we're like, I guess, and it was actually a better result in the two years of trying to get artificial intelligence right. And so the big light bulb moment was, just like having, Brian (15:53) Yeah. Clinton Keith (15:56) a short deadline on showing something of value led to people making better choices from the player's perspective, not this challenge of, what can I do with artificial intelligence over the next two years? So I think that's part of the big challenge with these big, huge games of saying it's like, if there's not a payoff, if you can't see value, and this was an early lesson I learned, Brian (16:11) Yeah. Clinton Keith (16:24) working with Nintendo Japan was the guy that made Mario and Donkey Kong. We worked with him directly, Miyamoto. He always had this thing. It's like, find the fun fast, show the value of it. And it always stuck with me. And so when you have these short deadlines, you want to encourage the teams and the product owners is judge the game, not what you see in Brian (16:40) Yeah. Clinton Keith (16:49) with the potential in two years. Judge your vision of the two years against what you're seeing every other week and adjust your expectations. Don't fall in love with your vision. Brian (16:59) That's so interesting. So I kind of want to dig into this. This is an agile podcast, obviously. And we have lots of people from different walks of life and that they're implementing agile in different ways. And it's always interesting, I think, for people to hear how things kind of fit in other realms, right? In other kind of industries and how that changes a little bit industry by industry. So I'm kind of curious when you are talking about agile and Scrum and in a gaming game development environment, what are some typical kind of modifications that you recommend or that you've seen that are needed or work well that are specific to the gaming industry? Clinton Keith (17:44) So as I mentioned, a lot of teams, even Agile teams that are truly Agile, like the sports titles, we still have that separation of discovering what new mechanics we want to put into the game and then building all that content, your stadium. So let's use sports titles for example. Let's say we do alter how we draw or render the stadiums. And we're making much more beautiful, more detailed stadiums because we have a new platform that can draw 10 times as much like a next generation PlayStation or Xbox. So we still want to come out with the new sports title at the start of the season. So we'll, we'll do more of our risky exploration of stadiums and what it's going to take to, to render these stadiums. and how many polygons, how many triangles we're going to use to build these stadiums and how much it's going to cost. Because we do have 32 stadiums. We do have a budget. We do have so many artists that can build these stadiums. So we have to figure that out ahead of time. And then, you know, once we figure that out and say, all right, we have, you know, we've built an example stadium. This is an example of what we want to ship at the start of the season. Now we have to build all the other 31 stadiums to that quality. And we've judged the risk and the cost and the schedule and how many people we have to the artists to build those things. And then we go into that production pipeline with those studios. And that's where, you know, it's like the scrum every two weeks model doesn't quite work. know, a stadium might take. 21 .2 days to build. And it's a pipeline of handoffs of things. Somebody doing the concept art for the stadium and then building the geometry for the stadium and then lighting it, you know, and all the audio effects. And so it becomes more of a production factory pipeline where practices like Kanban and lean come into play. That still have those underlying values of getting things through the pipeline as quickly as possible, continually looking at how we can improve that pipeline. And then judging instead of how much we can get done every fixed time box is judging how long that stadium takes from concept to in -game and trying to refine that to get improvements in the quality of the stadiums and the productivity of that entire pipeline. which leads to, you know, things that we see in Scrum is disciplines talking to each other and improving how they work together. Brian (20:32) Yeah. I would imagine the culture, like there's potential culture clash kind of things here with Agile in the gaming industry. Like one of the things I was thinking about is, you find it's a little tougher to get buy -in on a concept like working at a sustainable pace? Is that something that's in the gaming industry, people... Because I've seen a lot of... I've been around some small companies that are working on gaming, and they seem to work all the time. It's like late nights, weekends, it's just like it's non -stop. Is that kind of a difficult concept in the gaming industry? Clinton Keith (21:18) Well, mean, the gaming industries had quite a few scandals in terms of crunch time. And a lot of that has to do with not seeing that actual game until the end. As I mentioned, it's like we have these in pre -agile development, still goes on quite a bit, is that, we write this big, huge document up front. We get the buy -off on the stakeholders. We go off and the engineers go off over here, the artists go off over here. And then towards the end of the game, when we finally get all the elements of a story together, we can first start to play it. Then we start to get it so instead of it crashing every two minutes, we're starting to get the game playable and we're out of time. We have to ship this game in three to six months. It's not fun. It's a disaster. Brian (22:06) Yeah. Clinton Keith (22:13) and then what, unfortunately what happens is we've, we put that accountability on the developers and say, well, now you, and, know, as, as a studio director, pre -agile, I was guilty of this as well as to say, Hey, we got it. We, we, we have no choice, but to come in here seven days a week, 10 to 12 hours a day. And, and as it, yeah, as a team we'll, we'll, you know, we'll, we'll get this thing done. And it destroyed. destroyed marriages, harmed families. I mean, I went through that. didn't see my, one of my newborns for the first three months of his life, pretty much, except when he was sleeping, when I came home late. And it simply doesn't, I mean, it's harmful primarily to the working life and these people that leave the game industry, but it's also harmful to the game is that, you do whatever it takes to get this Brian (22:45) Ha Clinton Keith (23:12) terrible game across the deadline that you were very passionate about in this first couple years of development. And we've seen disasters, even in recent history of games being released that, you know, it's just unplayable, but they had to get out for a deadline and they've spent hundreds of millions of dollars. And they've just felt like, well, nowadays we can patch games, you know, and, and, and, you know, it, it, it, it kills them from a financial point of view. Brian (23:41) Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting. you know, I think this, to me, this is where it kind of, it is so relatable to, to anyone who's, who's trying to do this kind of work. Because I think there that we've all had scenarios and situations where, know, as an agile coach or trainer that we've, we've, you know, we've been up against a constraint of some kind. We've been up against something that is not really the way we would. hope would be the way that the organization would operate or that the team would be run. And we've had to make those compromises in order to continue the work and continue trying to move that organization forward. So I'm kind of curious, I know there's probably lots of people listening who are in those situations and maybe even kind of some self -doubt there about, hey, am I really? Am I really doing this the right way? And am I kind of a sellout and that I'm giving in to the management and how they're making us do this? Would you have any advice or anything that you would say to people in that position that could maybe help them kind of navigate that? Clinton Keith (24:56) I mean, yeah, think, I mean, a lot of it is, is, it's a tough question to answer because, you know, a lot of it is, I mean, I, I've been in that position myself where, yeah, I was promoted to studio director and my first studio. It's like, okay, now you're responsible for all these games, seven games in development. And, you know, I committed, I said, all right, we're going to stop doing stupid things. Which means like going to a team that's working very well and saying, this other team, they're in a bad place. So I'm going to take half of your team and move them over there. You know, the old Fred Brooks thing is just like, you know, it's like, Hey, you know, it's like, you know, we're going to double their staff, you know, which is going to make it even worse for them, but it's also going to harm you. We're going to stop doing those things because now I'm in charge. I've been through that. I've run individual games and I know the impact. of what that does. And so I wasn't in the job more than two weeks before the CEO came in and said, hey, we don't have enough money to pay payroll this Friday. And I went into a panic because I was like, I just got promoted to a studio that's going out of business. I go half the people are going to leave if they don't get paid this Friday. And he goes, well, just calm down, relax. You know, what we're going to do is we're going to get a loan because Brian (26:10) Yeah. Clinton Keith (26:21) but we have to accelerate this milestone payment. I need you to, we need to start a new team, an eighth game. And I was like, well, we don't have the people for it to start an eighth game. It says, well, you need to go out to the teams and take people from their teams and populate a whole new team so we can get this payment from this publisher who wants to start a game. And it was such a bad idea to do, but I couldn't go to the teams and say, Brian (26:46) You Clinton Keith (26:49) Hey, I need to take some of your staff so we don't go out of business. I just said, you know, it's like, Hey, we have to take some people off your team. And they're like, you very publicly said you weren't going to do stupid things and here you are. You know, so I think, you know, as part of it is it's, it's, it's the culture, it's the leadership. You know, I started about five, six years ago, starting to do leadership training. Yeah. And because it's like, you know what? I keep seeing these. Brian (26:55) Yeah. Clinton Keith (27:19) You know, the team's adopting these practices, but the leadership not knowing what to do with this transparency, with what to do when your game isn't fun early on, and how it's so hard to build an agile culture, but so easy to destroy overnight from leadership doing things like I did. So I built a leadership course that was like, I wish this was the training I had got. 20 years ago when I was put into this position to help navigate some of these issues and help these teams. I there's, I mean, there's, mean, occasionally see cultures that just kind of like beyond, you know, their, ability to recover just too late, you know, to make some of these, make some of these changes, because like I said, we have to get this title. Brian (27:49) Right. Clinton Keith (28:15) Out the door in three months. In fact, these days I just refuse to, I used, I refuse to train a team that's within six months of shipping a, having a big title to ship because it's like, yeah, that sounds great. You know, we'd love to do it, but you know, we're just in the trenches for the next six months. Brian (28:35) Yeah, that kind of heads down and then can't, how do you learn a new process, you know, while you're in heads down mode, right? Well, this is fascinating. And I, you know, I'm tempted to take more of your time. I just don't want to, I want to be respectful of your time and in our listeners time. So it's probably a good place for us to stop. I want to just point out to people, again, your book, Agile Games Development, where you talk about a lot of this stuff. If I'm reading this correctly, it was originally out in 2020, right? Is that correct? Second edition, second edition was 2020. So you've added some new stories and some new elements to it in 2020, right? Clinton Keith (29:09) The second edition, Well, I mean, it was between 2008 when the first edition came out, we had mobile. You know, it's like the iPhone came out and mobile came out and the entire industry turned upside down. So, and I just, we've just learned so much from working with all these studios and what they have discovered is just incredible. it's, mean, it's, I mean, the industry was very agile early on. You know, the console, the arcade developers used to like sneak out prototype versions and Brian (29:22) Yeah. Clinton Keith (29:47) count quarters they collected. When then the 90s and early 2000s, things got so huge, we went away from Agile. And so it was a difficult sell. But in the last, yeah, the last dozen years, it's been fantastic with all these platforms, all these new opportunities, all these new markets. It's almost as if we're not using the word Agile anymore. It's just the way to develop. Brian (30:14) That's awesome. Yeah, that's what Mike said sometimes. Mike Cohn, when we talk about this, he's like, that was my goal initially was to not have Agile be something we even had to name. It just would be software development. And that's just the way that would be the default in doing things. So it's good to hear that at least in some places that is the case, right? It does feel like that's more of the default. That's great. Clinton Keith (30:38) Well, it's no coincidence. Mike was our first coach 20 years ago and my mentor. And I think that I stole that quote from him and glad to see that it's, it's, it's coming true. Brian (30:41) Yeah You That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, we'll put all these links in the show notes for everybody. But again, the book is called Agile Game Development. And Clinton, I really appreciate you coming on. Thanks for taking your time and chatting with us. Clinton Keith (31:02) Thanks for the invite, Brian. Enjoyed it a lot.

In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner chats with Murman about the value of attending Agile conferences, the importance of networking, and the impact of volunteering in the Agile community. They share personal stories, advice on making the most of conference experiences, and insights into how volunteering can open up new opportunities for personal and professional growth. Overview Brian Milner and Chris Murman dive into the world of Agile conferences, focusing on the upcoming Agile 2025 event and the benefits of attending. They discuss the evolving purpose of conferences, why networking and volunteering are crucial, and how approaching conferences with an open mind can lead to unexpected learning and connections. Chris also shares his journey from attendee to conference chair, providing a behind-the-scenes look at what goes into creating a memorable conference experience. Whether you're a conference regular or considering attending your first one, this episode offers valuable perspectives on getting the most out of these unique events. References and resources mentioned in the show: Agile 2025 Chris Murman Connect with Chris on LinkedIn Agile Alliance Speaker Submission Tips Webinar #105: Scrum Conferences & Neurodiversity with Brian Milner Special Episode Scrum Gathering Denver 2022 Mountain Goat Software’s Accurate Agile Planning Course Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Chris Murman is the Agile 2025 Conference Chair with over 15 years of experience in product management and leadership, He has directed successful launches for top brands like Verizon, NBC Universal, and Chick-fil-A. As the Executive Director of Product at JP Morgan Chase, and leads 20 cross-functional teams, driving innovative financial solutions and spearheading AI/ML initiatives that save over 6,000 man-hours per quarter. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today, a very special friend is here with us, Mr. Chris Murman. Welcome in, Chris. Chris (00:11) What's up, Brian? I don't know that I'm a mentor, but I'm here anyways. Brian (00:12) You're definitely a mentor. In fact, we're going to explain to people why you are here in just a moment. Chris is an Agile coach extraordinaire. He has been in the community for quite a while. And he is a fellow Dallas native here with me. And we connect a little bit at the last year's Dallas conference here for Agile. Chris (00:19) Okay, okay, sure. Sure, sure. Brian (00:40) And one of the things that I noted in that conference was they announced the next one, which is coming up in Denver, end of July, beginning of August -ish, we'll put it that way. And he was announced as the chair of that conference. So Chris is actually going to be in charge or leading or behind the scenes for just about everything that's going to take place at that Agile 2025 conference in Denver. So I wanted to have Chris on to talk about that a little bit. Don't think of this as an ad. It's not an ad for it because what I wanted to kind of help people understand was kind of the why behind it. When I normally talk about the conference, it's maybe a month or two before. Well, now it's next summer. So you have some time to plan. And now is the right time to kind of put that kind of stuff in your calendar if it's something that you're thinking about doing. or even maybe thinking about maybe should you volunteer or something like that for it. So Chris, how did you get involved with this kind of thing? How did you get involved with helping out with the conferences? What made you decide to help out in any way, shape or form? Chris (01:54) Well, like many, when I first started the work, I I fell into Agile backwards just like everybody else did. None of us did this on purpose. It just came along and we just started doing it and then it became something to do. in the 2010s when Agile was riding high and I... I saw these conferences as really cool learning opportunities and connection opportunities. People that I knew from the, that you and I both know from the local area, from meetups, would tell me about these conferences. I was attending DFW Scrum the last time that Agile 20XX was in Dallas. I did not go, but. cause I, was too late for me to find out and it was kind of pricey. And so I was like, so like conferences are where you just go and meet people and then they're like, yeah, you should just kind of go. So as, as with many of us who are like, well, how do I pay for these conferences to go? just said, well, I'll submit to speak. And, I don't know about you, but my first few submissions were not great. I, I, I. People always laugh when I say this, but I would literally copy and paste the headline and the entire copy of blog posts that I thought would be really cool to talk about. Because I started my blog, that was kind of how Chris Murman .com is kind of how people first started meeting me because I would promote it on platforms and stuff. Agile Twitter used to be really fun back in those days too. So I would just copy and paste the entire blog post as my abstract. And of course, now knowing what I know, like that was, that's just the worst thing to do in the world. but I didn't know what else to do. So I fell flat on my face the first few years and started getting some advice and feedback and such, and started getting accepted to speak around 2016. Spoke at. Spoke at several conferences that year, spoke at several conferences in 2017. 2018 comes along and they're like, and I'm like, hey, how do I help out? Like this is really cool. I connected with the Agile Alliance community, that specific conference community very, very well. And I'm like, well, how can I help? And they're like, here's three or four people, email them until they say yes. And I'm not. Brian (04:18) Yeah. Hahaha. Chris (04:34) I just was annoying and said, no, I'm not kidding. I want to help. And I got to chair a track. You know, I chaired all kinds of tracks for the next few years. coming out of COVID, I got asked to be on the program team. which is just when people are like, what's the difference between leading a track and leading like the entire program? Think of it as like, The track is like one tiny, tiny sliver in the program team has to go really very narrow across everything to know where everything is. Not that I know every set. I still, I'm like, that was that session was the conference that year. But, so we just have to be more broad in what are the themes that we want to talk about? What are the things that we want to do? and, and, you know, when you join the program team, you know, one of these years it's going to be your year. And then when you. when you're a conference chair, that's your final year on the program team. And then you just go back to civilian life, I guess. I don't know, which is, don't, I don't ask Dana. I don't know what civilian life is on the side of the conference just yet, but I will very soon. So I don't know. It's a, that's a rambling answer, but it's for the most part, that's really how I got going was just, I just wanted to go. You know what I mean? I just wanted to be there. And the only way I could do it was to get a free ticket. Brian (05:34) Ha ha ha. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's a, well, that's a great answer. I mean, I, I think I'm kind of, I mean, I probably have a little bit, there was probably a few more years I submitted before I got accepted to speak at the Agile Conference, but I probably submitted three or four years before I got something accepted. And that's even after reviewing a few years and seeing what good and bad submissions were like, you know, and trying to understand that. Chris (06:22) Thank Brian (06:25) But we were talking a little bit beforehand about just the concept of a conference in today's world. I know that we've seen sort of a decline in people who are attending conferences a little bit. And I'm not really sure whether this is a momentary thing or an economy -based thing or what. But when people ask you why attend a conference, what What do you tell people? Chris (06:55) Well, there's many things that you can get out of a conference. That's the cool part about it is that you can attend the conference for many reasons. And I would say now in 2024, coming into next year, 25, I don't know that the reasons for attending the conference are the same as they used to be, right? Because when we first started coming, there's this like, I don't mean to sound pedantic or like over inflate myself, but there's a level of like fame in our community. We have a tiny, tiny community. So you can get agile famous a lot of different ways. Like now you can just be an influencer and write like Chris Stone is a perfect example of someone who just cranks out a ton of content that it's for the most part pretty good and get the following that way. And then people meet you that way. Brian (07:27) You Yeah, yeah. Chris (07:53) there were a lot of ways that you could meet people back then. you could really meet a ton of people there. You could make a ton of connections. So ultimately, I just really wanted to learn. I love learning and I love being connecting with other people. I did theater as a kid, was performing at church as a kid. I was just that person that was always on a stage. so speaking is just another extension of that. You being in a training room all the time, again, it's just a performance. You're just giving a performance where there's hopefully... a few nuggets of wisdom. When I realized that that's all that it was, well then I wanted to do it. You know, I don't think that, but I don't know that that's the same anymore. I don't, you know, I don't hear people say, I learned a ton at this conference every year, right? Because a lot of work, we're, Brian (08:39) Right. Yeah. Hmm. Chris (08:59) we're rehashing the ideas in a new way. We're trying to explore things in a new way, but we're really kind of taking many people feel like that we're just taking the same rock and turning it over and just getting seeing if we'll be surprised the next time we flip the rock over, right? Like there's only so many times you can flip that rock over before you don't find anything new anymore. So, I, it is interesting to think about why do we What is the purpose of a conference? You know, because do you want to be known so you can get paid, right? Or get a job? You know, there's a lot of people that want a job. So can you get a job by going to a conference? I don't know. I don't, there weren't a lot of jobs in 2023 to hand out. There were some to be had this year. If you attended the conference and were looking like there were several people that had things to talk about and interviews to be had. Brian (09:28) Yeah. Chris (09:55) some of the jobs are starting to come back. like, okay, well, do you go because you want a job or if you're learning, like, well, what do you want to learn that you can't just learn from watching YouTube or TikTok or, you know, attend like, as you know, training classes are also struggling in the community. like, what is what what is learning in 2024 2025 in the agile community? I think it's worth thinking about, you know what I mean? Brian (10:23) Yeah, no, I agree. And I think, from my perspective, I think it's changed a little bit. It's shifted a little bit over time. I think when I first started to go, there was an idea of, yes, I wanted to network and I wanted to understand and meet other people in the community. But as an introvert, I, you know, that kind of scares the crap out of me. And, you know, I can only do a little bit of that before I just feel like my battery is completely depleted. But, you know, when I think when I first went, I did have the idea that I wanted to learn. wanted to kind of be on the cutting edge. I wanted to hear the cutting edge thoughts of people who were out there. And, you know, now I think I still have that mentality when I go, I still want to hear, you know, I want someone to challenge me, you know, like that's, what I really want to hear from, from a speaker is tell me something about this. don't know, or tell me something that, you know, would challenge my, my existing way of thinking about this. so that I can go back and examine it and think, huh, I never really thought of it that way, but maybe that's true and maybe I need to re -examine that. But you know, that's kind of rare. That's not something that you get from just a lot of talks. I know one of the things I try to do when I give a talk is I wanna end with something that I would say, hey, what's the one thing you commit to changing as a result of this? Like what's the one big idea? What's the one... If you left this room and don't remember anything else, what's the one thing that you wanna just star or circle in your notebook and say, I'm gonna go find out more about that or I'm gonna do something about that. And that's where I try to kind of drive toward the whole talk. But I've been in others that, like you said, maybe a little bit more of a rehash of something I've heard before. But I've never left a conference without feeling challenged in some way, even if it's not, even if it's just from a one -on -one conversation that I've had with people, you know, I've been challenged about ideas and had to go back and re -examine and think through things. I'd say it's more, you know, now my balance has shifted. It is more networking now for me than it is that challenging thought, but I still want to find that nugget somewhere in there in the conference time. Chris (12:41) So what you said is really interesting and I want to hone in on the specific words you mentioned about challenged, right? the, I do want to, you know, before it sounds like I'm not poo -pooing the idea of conferences in any way, shape or form, but what Brian just mentioned is something that I tell the people all the time. I said it from the stage this year in Dallas, which is like, you get out of it, what you put into it. If you come in with a beginner's mind intending to be challenged, intending to have your assumptions questioned and said, maybe I didn't think about this the way that... I would say that that's probably the thing that I learned every time is that something that I thought was true or wasn't true may not, right? Brian (13:11) Yeah, yeah. Chris (13:35) You know that half of the conferences are new people every year, right? There's someone new to agile every every year there are there. Thousands of people new to it every year. That's the cool thing about it is that every year there are people that like I just got my CSM like holy cow. That's so like can you imagine showing up to a conference and everybody's like this sucks. I don't want to be here like you're not going to learn anything. I don't get anything out of it like what an awful experience for. Brian (13:35) Yeah. You Chris (14:03) someone that's new and excited and just wants to, like, there will be something you haven't heard before. But for the most part, the reason why I always get something is because I show up expecting to hear something I haven't heard before. The story won't come out exactly the way you think, right? Or, Brian (14:09) Yeah. Chris (14:22) the story that they tell, because a good conference is always a great idea plus you, right? It's your stories, your experiences, how this affected you that matters. So sharing your soul, bearing your soul requires the audience to kind of be like, want to be, I want to have someone, you know, kind of bear themselves to me. I want to hear someone be vulnerable. Brian (14:45) Yeah. Chris (14:48) And those are always the best sessions that you and I always have, is when someone is super vulnerable, super vulnerable with where they are. I thought this was the only way to do this. That's my favorite is when I hear a speaker say, I thought this was the only way to do this. There are so many roads up the mountain that we have for our work. There is not one way to do it. So find a new, come to find a new one. There's a technique that you've probably not tried before or done, or if you have, you didn't do it the way that they did before, that'll seem easier. that's the whole purpose of listening to these things, but it, it, it requires you to show up with more than just here's my tray, man. I have some agile, please. Right. Like that's, this is not a buffet, right? Like you have to like, go find it, right. Seeking positive intent means I have to go seek it. Right. I have to go seek information that I want to have. Brian (15:21) Yeah. Hahaha. Chris (15:41) and then go get it. Because if I don't, I'm just going to go, yeah, it's cool. I mean, I met some cool people, but I didn't really. OK, well, then you didn't show up with the mentality of being challenged. I challenge our friends, people that have been coming for years, I challenge them every year. You will get something if you want to. Right? If you don't get something, it's because you didn't want to get anything out of it. Brian (16:01) Right. I mean, I think we're all kind of guilty sometimes of setting our conference path, choosing the sessions and things that we go to based on things that maybe we already have some familiarity with. And that sounds interesting. yeah, I researched that a little bit. Let me see what they have to say about that. I've tried to intentionally now try to find things that I have no background in. I have no experience in because those are the things that are really going to push me. Those are the things that I don't really have. any knowledge of or forethought on and I'm gonna be taken to a different place. I remember I used to be, I used to get this like really anxious, nervous feeling when I would find out I was wrong about something. You know, I'd be in a conversation at a dinner table with someone and they'd say, well, actually, you know, that's not the way to do it. They'd start to do something else and I'd start to feel kind of anxious about that. But now, now I've like, that's swapped for me. Now when I hear that, when someone says, no, actually there's another way to think about that. Chris (16:41) you Brian (16:57) I start to get excited. Like it's actually excitement in me because I start to feel like, great, wow, I didn't, this is something new. This is something I had never heard before. And now this is the point where I can grow and break through, you know. Chris (17:11) Well, there's, I mean, and there's people that we all, if we've been in these communities before, we can all think of someone that always challenges us, right? Like I can't have a conversation with Michael Sahota without him challenging something that I thought, I just thought was true. And I'm like, no, it's not like, or it might be, but not always. So there's always someone that's just like, Brian (17:20) Yeah. Yeah. Chris (17:37) sit down so that I can break your mind real quick. And that's always fun. You know, another thing to think about is like, what we get out of the conference also dictates who's going to pay the bill, right? Because we hear in the community a lot, well, companies aren't paying for conferences anymore. Brian (17:41) Yeah Mm, yeah, yeah. Chris (17:59) That's not true for some aspects of IT. Like all the developer conferences, companies love footing the bill for that. The Microsoft conference, they love footing the bill for that because they send technologists there that come back smarter and can code better and more efficiently and whatever, right? Like better, faster, cheaper, all those things, right? Like they will get something out of it. So the... think the reason why we have to say what do you want at the conference is like, it's gonna kind of dictate who pays the bill. If the purpose of Brian and I who have been to this conference many times and have met so many of the cool people, that's the best part of me going every year is I get to see Matt Barkholm again. Like one of my favorite people in the world that I do not see other than over Zoom, right? Or any number of people, right? Any number of people. Brian (18:47) Hahaha. Chris (18:56) There's always someone new that I had spoken to online but never met in person. Someone that just, again, someone that just started the work and someone that's like, hey, I read something that you wrote about this years ago and it was really cool. That's cool, right? You won't get that if you don't go out and network and stuff. But here's the thing, if you're there for connections, companies aren't interested in footing the bill for connections. They're interested in footing the bill for... Brian (19:23) Right. Chris (19:26) learn something, improve something, come away with something. And if Agilent are going to the conferences and just like, I met some really cool people, what else? I met some cool people. All right, cool. I'm not paying next year for you to go to that, right? That's what a lot of companies are trying to do. So we have to sort of imagine like, if the goal is to get companies to pay for people to go again, well, then we need to... That's something that we've asked ourselves in the program team. Like what would get, like what is a program that companies will reimburse for? I think it's, and I don't know that we've got a strong answer either. Everybody's got, I think, there's a lot of I thinks and not a lot of I knows, right? I guess is a good way to think of it. Brian (20:00) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the other thing I wanted to kind of, because you are, you know, kind of the ultimate volunteer for this upcoming conferences as the chair, you know, I've tried to tell the audience here from time to time about the kind of the benefits of volunteering and why I do it as a speaker, why I've done it in the past as a reviewer. It seems like there's just so many different ways to get involved for something like this so that you don't have to just sit on the sidelines. You can actually be a part of this. And that's a, for me, that's an easy way to have a quick in with the community because you're interacting with people prior to it. So when you show up, it's like, hey, I know you and I know you, because we've been talking and working together on this stuff for a while. So. What kind of case do you make to people for volunteering for a conference like this, like a big conference? Chris (21:12) It's so again, going back to like, what do want to get out of it? I think the purpose of volunteering is to kind of learn how the sausage is made to a degree. if someone's like, I'm not really interested in seeing how my sausage is made, then you don't belong in the agile community. Like this is the community of people that want to see Brian (21:22) Yeah. Chris (21:32) Sausage being stuffed into its casing and just cranked out right like this is this is the community for that like I won't use any more sausage metaphors that although I The the The funny thing about how Volunteering works is that? Brian (21:41) Hahaha Chris (21:50) You can volunteer in the slightest of ways, just a few hours a week reviewing. When you're like, well, I want to review, that's fine, but I want to be a track chair. Because people always want to be a part of deciding the content. This is what I've always wanted to hear about. This is what I've always wanted to hear about. And of course, then I always ask the question of, OK, well, then someone has to submit that idea. all right, it's one thing to say, want to hear about this. It's another thing to say, how do I get that content out of a group of submissions every year, which we get thousands every year at the conference. And we got thousands, right? Like, you know, for all of the online hubbub over the conference every year over who gets accepted and who doesn't, like thousands of people submit wanting to speak every year. regardless of how they feel about whether they, when they get the rejection letter or the acceptance letter, like thousands of people want to speak at this conference. It's cool. Like it's a cool thing to do, but not everybody is a speaker, right? You can be a purple shirt and volunteer. In fact, some of my favorite people in the community are lifelong purple shirters that have done it multiple years. There are people that do it for a couple of years and meet people and then and they move on to another role. mean, there's just a bunch of different ways that you could be involved in doing something that doesn't involve speaking or deciding who speaks. And also, I will say, it's also really hard to cull thousands of submissions. into something that makes sense for everybody else. Because then you have to go find keynote speakers. There are people that are invited to speak who are luminaries in the industry. And how do you meet those people? So all of that is really like the fact that I can say I can email. any number of people, I won't use the name so I don't offend the people that I don't use, but like I can email any number of them and they're like, yeah, Chris, Agile, Agile 20XX guy. I, it would be cool if they're like, I just like Chris and I want to be friends with them, but you know, that's not the way the world works. so I, you know, networking in ways that don't always show up in a job or whatever is just, I'm, I'm just here to. Brian (24:00) Hahaha Right. Right. Chris (24:25) find good content and show the community that and the rest kind of takes care of itself, you know? Brian (24:32) Yeah. I mean, I'll say to, you know, just to give people kind of an idea of my path with the agile conference, you know, I probably submitted four or five years before I got accepted. And a couple of those years spent as just a reviewer for, you know, a track or, you know, with a certain team, not as a chair, but just as a reviewer. there's a, there's a, if you want to do that, you can do that. Right? mean, it's pretty much, it's easy to get into that kind of a mode if that's something that you're interested in. And I tell people who want to speak like that to me was one of the biggest and best educations I could have had on learning about speaking was reviewing what other people wanted to speak about. Cause you know, there's kind of two parts to speaking. There's the... the marketing side of getting your thing selected, and then there's the actual talk. But the part of trying to come up with your idea of the talk and frame it and put it in an interesting way and learning how to structure your talk in a way that would be interesting for people to listen to, that's a skill in itself. And the best way I learned about that was just reading others, reading what other people were submitting to do and... Chris is right. mean, there's so many submissions that, you know, even as just a reviewer for one track, I was sad for all the ones that I knew would not get to be heard because there's so many good ideas. it's, know, Sophie's choice about how you try to decide which one of these two things or which one of these 10 things, you know, you've got one slot and 10 of them that are 10 or 20 that are just amazing. and you can only take one, you know? So it's difficult, but reading those submissions to me was a really great education. Chris (26:33) Yeah, if you think about it this way, we always enter the room to build the schedule with, there's X amount of slots that we have plus X number of alternates and such. we always, you try to look at it like, like you look at the whole schedule and say, okay, is there an aspect of our work that we missed? Well, we didn't really get a, we haven't gotten a retro talk yet. okay, well there was one over here. So, cause you know, you're trying to balance it for like there's meat and potatoes kinds of sessions and then there's like the big idea sort of sessions. Then there's the workshops that are very engaging and meant to create something. Brian (27:16) Yeah. Chris (27:26) you know, there's a lot of, again, there's a lot of roads up that mountain. I would say that the joy of speaking now, if I could, anybody that wants to do it, the best advice I would say is like, you need to want to speak so that you can be a better presenter and organizer of your thoughts. Because, Brian (27:46) Yeah. Chris (27:49) Really, the abstract and the basic, there is essentially a formula to filling out a submission to a conference. I, with CP Richardson, who's now on the board, I did a webinar last November on what makes a good submission. It's something that I've gotten super passionate about. Again, it's recorded, it's on the Agile Alliance site if you wanna find it. There is a formula that anybody can follow and get selected, right? I had some, I had several people reach out and say, I watched your video and I follow what you said. And then I got accepted to speak, which for the record, watching what I say will not get you accepted to speak. You can follow the formula. You can, you can follow the formula exactly and still not get it because there's only so many slots and it's really hard to get in. but. Brian (28:26) Ha Chris (28:41) Once you follow the formula, then it's just down to like, does the idea resonate with the community? And I can't, I can't give you a formula for that because I'm not in anybody's brain, but, you know, I, again, it's always a great top, a great idea. Plus your stories and experiences is what really defines what a good submission is. And so you have to get that straight before you type a single word out. But then once you go through the submission process and there's edits, feedback, all that kind of stuff. Then you got to get accepted. Once you get accepted, then you got to build the session. And we find that a lot of times it's a rare breed of someone that knows how to write a good submission and can put on a good show. Not everybody can do that. And of course, a good show is a relative term, right? You don't got to be big and bombastic and loud to be good, right? Brian's not that and Brian's great in a room, right? So you can... Brian (29:16) Yeah. Chris (29:35) you have to kind of construct it in a way that makes sense. So, but again, the cool part is, that because I had people help me, mostly because I just annoyed the hell out of them and saying, please, please give me, please give me some help. I just want to keep passing it along. So I mean, I still get people at 12 months a year, I get people saying, I have an idea and I'd love to run it by you that they hit me up on LinkedIn or whatnot. So. Brian (30:04) Yeah. Chris (30:05) It's just something that I care about now. I got so much better with organizing my ideas and writing them and presenting them that it's a gift that I want to just keep passing on to people. I guess this is because I didn't intend this to be the cross that I bared, it is regardless. Brian (30:21) Yeah Well, the only other advice I'd throw out to people, there was a shift that happened with me too, where I went from, I want to be a speaker, let me find a topic. There's a very big difference from having that attitude to living your life and saying, wow, I'm really passionate about this. I'd love to talk about this. If you find the topic first that you resonate with and connect with, then it's, you you're a little more personally connected when you submit. So it can be more painful if you don't get picked, you know, when that happens. But on the other hand, when you do get picked, man, you're so excited about giving that talk. It's not just that you got picked, but it's like, I can't wait to tell people about this, this thing. And to me, that's, that's the magic. Like when that happens, you, you, yeah, you can't, you're, you're, it's not even nervous. You're, just so excited to tell people what you've learned about. Chris (31:21) Yeah, another piece of advice I tell people is as you're reading things, it doesn't have to be a book. It could just be an article or a video that you watch. As I always say, when I'm reading a book on something that has nothing to do, like I don't really buy a ton of agile books anymore. I buy a lot of social psychology, social economics, behavioral economics is a lot of my favorites. like Daniel Pink books is a tried and true. I met Daniel Pink once and he's like, what is it with you agile people that just love what I do? And I'm like, I don't know. I just, I don't know. I'm like, we just read it. So, but I read these books with looking for a lens into my world, right? I always read stuff that has nothing to do with IT. Brian (32:02) Yeah Yeah. Chris (32:16) that or leading teams or whatever it is your world, whatever you think it is. Find something that has nothing to do with your world and then say, how does that identify or how does that relate to my work? That's my favorite thing. I read a book on many years ago on, it was called The Control Heuristic. It was like where control comes from as an idea and psychology and why. We struggle with it. And I immediately turned that into a leadership talk on why we're all control freaks and here's, know, and what, what do we, what do we do about the fact that we're all control freaks? Like, again, I didn't read a book and say, I'm going to do a topic on a book. It's like, no, how does that tie into dealing with executives when I'm trying to get them to release the purse strings or release some of the control of their work, right? comes in handy, right? So you have to be looking for how does that idea sit in our world and then sort of play with that idea a little. Brian (33:22) Yeah. Yeah, this has been awesome. I really appreciate you making the time for this, Chris. And for those people listening, just a quick little shout out again. Agile 2025 is happening in Denver. It is the week of July 28 through August 1. So mark your calendars. And if you're interested in volunteering, if you're interested in being a reviewer or one of the Purple Shirt people who help out, Purple Shirt people help out at the actual conference making it kind of flow, right? They make sure it actually works. Yeah, yeah, the talks would not happen without them. Actually, nothing would happen without them. Yeah. Chris (33:54) They're the lifeblood of the conference. Yes. Nothing would happen without them. Nothing would happen without them. Yeah, if you hit me up on LinkedIn, my name is just how it appears here on LinkedIn. Toss me your idea. Yes, will, and I said, I shot my mouth off about mentoring people through their talks. That means you too. I... hit me up. Like there's no excuse for you to not because the worst thing that happens is you get to come to the conference. So, yeah. Brian (34:29) There we go. So mark your calendars, make sure that you reserve those dates, like I said, just block it off. Even if you don't know whether you can get the money to do it right now, block the dates off, and you're gonna be much more likely to actually attend if you do that, because then you'll see it coming up, and they go, yeah, that's coming up, I should do that. So Chris, thanks again for coming on, I appreciate you making the time, and thanks for joining us. Chris (34:56) Yeah, thanks for having me, Brian.

In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner and Mike Cohn reveal the keys to achieving lasting success with Agile methodologies. From embracing experimentation and fostering a culture of continuous improvement to improving communication with consistent vocabulary, they offer practical, relatable insights for Agile practitioners at all levels. Overview Brian and Mike discuss the essential ingredients to Agile success, touching on the power of experimentation, the need for flexible coaching, and building a culture of continuous improvement. The conversation dives deep into the importance of effective communication within teams, especially through user stories and consistent vocabulary, ensuring that Agile teams stay aligned. With personal anecdotes and actionable tips, this episode provides a roadmap for anyone looking to excel with Agile. References and resources mentioned in the show: Mike Cohn Essential Scrum by Ken Rubin Agile & Scrum Glossary #85: Effectively Managing Dependencies with Ken Rubin Dependencies Are Killing Your Agile Flow at Scale by Ken Rubin Creating a Software Engineering Culture by Karl Wiegers Private Scrum & Agile Training Agile For Leaders Working on a Scrum Team Classes Story Writing Workshop Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Mike Cohn, CEO of Mountain Goat Software, is a passionate advocate for agile methodologies. Co-founder of Agile Alliance and Scrum Alliance, he thrives on helping companies succeed with Agile and witnessing its transformative impact on individuals' careers. Mike resides in Northern Idaho with his family, two Havanese dogs, and an impressive hot sauce collection. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today we have our favorite back with us, Mike Cohn is here. Welcome back, Mike. Mike (00:12) Thanks, Brian. It's good to be here. Hi, everybody. Brian (00:15) So happy when Mike can make time and be with us here on the show. Obviously Mike has a lot of wisdom and experience to share with us. So we wanted to bring him in because we were talking about doing an episode titled The Secret Staggile Success. I remember back in the day in the 80s, was a movie called The Secret to My Success. There was a really obscure movie. was Michael J. Fox. Yes, it was Michael J. Fox. Mike (00:37) Michael J. Fox? Yeah, so it's not that obscure. Brian (00:41) But I still hear that theme song in my head. when we talked about this title, that's what I thought about. But we wanted to talk about maybe some hidden things or things that aren't as immediately apparent to people that are crucial to being successful when you go agile or if your teams are working in an agile way. So let's just open things up, Mike. What's one of the things you had thought about when we talked about this? Mike (01:10) think the number one secret to Agile success for me is being willing to experiment, to try new things. And if you think back, Agile itself, Scrum itself, began as experiments. They were probably teams going, know, this waterfall stuff we've been doing doesn't work. Let's try something different. Somebody else went, yeah, let's do something unusual, and let's try iterating or something. And so Agile itself began as experiments. And yet I see teams kind of get stuck in the mud and not willing to experiment. And I think that's to their detriment. We want to try things out. And silly, trivial examples, try different sprint links. Don't do a one -week sprint link and go, Agile doesn't work. It's not for us. No. Brian (01:52) Yeah. Mike (01:59) Maybe one week sprints are for you. Try a three week iteration or I try something different. And I think the the idea of experimentation is how we come up with new ideas. It's how we learn. It's how we get better. And so if you're going to succeed, you better have that that focus on experimentation. Brian (02:19) Yeah, there's a surprising number of Scrum Masters I've encountered that I'll hear stories about how they run the same exact retrospective, every single retrospective. And I just think, what are you doing? How can you be trying to communicate this and teach the team that this whole thing is based on doing little small experiments and seeing what the result is, when you're not willing to try something new in just how you run a retrospective? So yeah, I completely agree. I think the key there for me is demonstrate it. If you want them to pick up on that, then do it yourself. Mike (02:56) worked with a company years ago that fired their scrum master for basically for being too rigid. He had read something in Ken Schwaber's second book, and I don't want to pick on Ken's book, but he has this wacky sentence in there, and there are wacky sentences in my books, right? So somebody can go find those, and I mean, I get it. But anyway, Ken wrote that the daily scrum must be conducted left to right, starting with the person on the left of the scrum master. And it's like, what? Why is this mandatory? It must be left to right. Anyway, this guy read that in the book and insisted that the Daily Scrum be left to right, starting with the person on left of the Scrum Master. And his team knew that was insane, right? It's just nuts. And so they would mess with him. They would do things like he would call on the person to his left and the person on the right would start talking. he would point to the person on the left to start and they were standing in a semi -circle. They would move, right? So the person on the left was no longer on the left. And they were just messing with him over this. And he would just get mad and insisted it had to be left right because the book said so. And I don't know what it was with him, but he was just stuck on this. Ultimately ended up getting fired for it. Yeah, I heard this story because I ran into him at a conference and I saw him there and he Brian (04:14) Wow. Mike (04:20) looked a little down. It's like, you know, said his name and how are you doing? And he told me this story. And he said, you know, he'd gotten better since then. But, you know, don't get stuck on things. It's just not the it's just not a very agile mindset. Brian (04:34) Yeah. I mean, if you can't, no matter what it is too, I think that if you can't point to what you hope to achieve from doing it that way, or what's the purpose behind us doing it that way, that's questionable part of your process to just say, I can't point to any reason why this, any good that this thing does going left to right person by person, but. Ken said we should do it. I guess, no, I mean, if there's no reason, if you don't see the benefit in it, why would we do that? Mike (05:07) Knowing Ken, I think he was just trying to make it easier for people. Here's one less thing you got to think about. Start on your left and go around the room. But the way it's written and the way this guy interpreted it was like, shalt go left to right. It's like you've got to be willing to, I think, out the way that a known proven way start out that way. So yeah, go ahead and start left to right. It says so. I don't know any different. Might as well go this way. Brian (05:17) You Mike (05:35) But then experiment, learn, figure it out for yourselves. I I can't think of a successful company or team that I've worked with that ever quoted this Scrum Guide at me, right? You know, they may start out exactly the way a Scrum Guide says, or my favorite is Ken Rubin's Essential Scrum Book, start out in a known proven way, but then experiment, make agile your own. Don't throw away the important stuff, and that's why you have to start in a known proven way, but as you get experience, experiment, throw things out. Brian (05:46) Yeah. I love that. Yeah, I think that's a really good one. So a good one to start us off. Thanks for that. Mike (06:12) Yeah, that's, that's what I'm buying. Brian, can I ask you for one of your secrets to agile success? Brian (06:17) Sure. Well, and this one I know it's going to be a little, know, boy, it'd be nice if I could do that, but I, you know, we can't do that. And I understand that this is not going to be for everyone, but one of the things that I think is important is to have some kind of a coaching presence. Now, just to be clear about this, this doesn't mean that you have to, you know, fight tooth and nail to hire some outside consultant or anything like that. I understand budgets are tight and there may not be an ability to do that. But I think if I, you know, if you're a scrum master, then I think that having the ability to continue your learning journey and grow is really important and, and having someone you can go and bounce things off of. So if you can't have someone, if you, if you can't have someone on staff or someone there that's an outside consultant that can help you and coach you through the early stages, I think that could be really, really helpful. And to me, it's an accelerator. I think that kind of thing is something that can really, yes, we will go through training. We understand kind of the basics, but then the coach is sort of like pouring gasoline on that fire to say, now we're going to go from zero to 60 and I'm going to help you get there because I know the pitfalls to look out for and I know how to get you there. But if you don't have that ability, I think it's important to maintain some of those mentorship relationships that you can find through different community groups. Mike (07:18) Mm Brian (07:44) Maybe you'd find some kind of a weekly meetup or a monthly meetup or something that you could go to. Even if it's just a meetup of peers, right? There's not someone that you would say, that person's been in this for 10 years. No, we're all kind of in the same place. But if we can meet up in their network of my peers and let's talk about what's going on at your place, I'll talk about what's going on at my place, and we can share with each other and... help each other find the best solutions. Even that level, I think of coaching is really imperative and can really make an impact on how successful your implementation is. Mike (08:25) I think you're right. I think back to the earliest days of Agile, and at least of Agile training. And I'm thinking back to when I was teaching public courses on Agile in 2003, 2004, 2000, actually, the early days. One of the big benefits of the class, beyond whatever learning somebody had in the class, one of the big benefits was just feeling like you weren't alone in the world. And I remember people describing a problem, whatever it was. Like, my bosses aren't on board with this. and somebody would describe a problem and then somebody else in the class would just merely sympathize. Right. Yeah, mine too. I'm struggling with that too. That was like one level of support that was awesome. It was even better if there was somebody in the class who said something like, yeah, we had that problem and here's what we did. Right. But these were not people who were any smarter than each other. It wasn't like the person who'd worked through the problem was that much smarter. They probably just had a six month head start and Having that ability to go into a class and hear that you weren't alone and that your problems were not that unique was extremely valuable for people even way back then when there were not a lot of people doing this. Brian (09:32) Yeah, and I've said this before, and I probably said this to you, Mike, but one of the things I think people love the most when they come to the advanced classes that we offer is really being able to get sympathy from others, the camaraderie of talking to somebody else and saying, yeah, I've gone through that. It's not, I tell people at beginning of the class, it's Mike (09:48) Mm -hmm. Brian (09:59) likely not going to be a teaching point that sticks with you as much as it's going to be hearing from your peers and actually getting to learn from each other that's going to stick with you as much through those classes. to me, I think that's one of the reasons why those classes are so much fun is because I learned from the people who come to them. Mike (10:20) absolutely, absolutely. Some of what you're describing is why we set up our Agile mentors community years ago. Agile mentors community, not just the podcast, is a community we have where people who take one of our courses get a free membership. I hired a consultant to kind of give me advice on some business stuff years ago. he used the try. And I asked him, hey, we're thinking about starting this community. What do you think? I don't remember if he said do it or don't, but I do remember a term he used. He called it a continuity program. And it was a way to continue a relationship with people who taken our courses. And like I said, we give it away free to people who take classes because we know that a class isn't enough to get people successful, but it's a start. It gets people over some hurdles. It gives them the foundations of the education they need. But they're going to have ongoing questions. And our community has been wonderful because we have so many good people in there who helped each other out. And again, they're often somebody who's just six months ahead in their journey, helping somebody who's right behind them or, you know, there's somebody just in a similar industry and can sympathize or give advice on how they worked through a problem. Brian (11:29) Yeah, that's awesome. So we talked about experimentation, we talked about coaching. Mike, what was another one that was on your list? Mike (11:36) One for me is to focus more on practices than frameworks. The frameworks get all the attention. Should we do Scrum or should we do Kanban? Should we do extreme programming, going back a little bit more when that was extremely popular, still around, but not as popular? Should we do safe? And so people focus on their frameworks because they're these big, visible things. And I think what we want to do more is pick the right practices for us. Now, that's not to diminish frameworks. I think the frameworks are good. They're a good starting point. But I've said for years, if I have a team and they start with Scrum or if they start with Kanban, if they're doing the good old inspect and adapt thing, they're going to end up in the same place. They're going to invent the right Agile for them. And very likely, that's going to be some elements of Scrum, some elements of Kanban, perhaps some elements of Safe if it's big. I don't think it matters all that much where you start. I think it's worthy of some consideration. But if you're inspecting and adapting, you're going to end up in the same place. And that means that Agile needs to be thought of more as a set of practices rather than we do Scrum or we do Kanban. Brian (12:49) Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And, and, you know, we've talked about the kind of that concept before of, you know, trying to fit the right practices in place. I know when even on this podcast, when we talked about scaling and then couple of those episodes, we talked about how, you know, it may be better for you to, to, find the unique collection of practices that fits your situation. because, know, a lot of these frameworks, they're designed to handle everything. They're designed to handle any possible scenario and. Mike (13:14) Mm -hmm. Brian (13:18) You're not going to encounter every possible scenario. You're going to encounter the ones that are only particular to you. Yeah. Mike (13:24) Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I've thought that there's I don't want to do this. I've never taken the time to really run this as an initiative. But I felt like there are a core set of practices that kind of everybody should do be iterative, right? know, inspect and adapt, right? Those type of things. But then there's a set of practices that are good for startups, let's say there's another set of practices that are good for people in the banking industry. Right. And that everybody in the banking industry should be doing a certain set of practices, and those will differ a little bit than perhaps every company in the game industry. And so there's these set of practices out there that can be grouped, but they do also need to be kind of tailored and hand -chosen for your particular organization. Brian (14:11) Yeah, yeah, I like that kind of the idea like a template, right? I mean, like when you use the template on a software program, that's a starting place, but you're expected to kind of customize it a little bit to your specific needs. Yeah, I like that. Mike (14:25) Yeah, wouldn't it be great if you're a startup and somebody said, here are the 20 practices you really got to do if you're to be successful as a startup. Here are the 10 you should think about, and then the rest, see if you like them. Same thing, bank. the bank, might have 30 practices you start with. Ivar Jakobson, who's the inventor of use cases, part of the unified method back with Bucin Rumba. He's had an initiative going on the last handful of years where he talks about method prisons and that the practices are all kind of locked up in these methodology prisons like Scrum and Kanban and everything else. And he talks about like free the practices, right? Let the practices loose of these method prisons and let people just more readily select the set of practices that are best for them. Brian (15:15) Love it. Yeah, I love it. That's a great concept. Mike (15:17) Yeah, I think it's a great, it's a great approach. It's got some traction, but it's something that more people need to hear and do. Brian (15:22) Yeah, I think that there's also maybe some stuff mixed in there with what you were saying that I've heard from the heart of Agile people. There's a lot of good stuff that's overlapped there as well. So that's awesome. Mike (15:32) Absolutely. What's another secret you can reveal Brian? Brian (15:37) Sure. Now, this is a big one, but what I would say is maybe moving in a different direction, the idea of how important the culture is and just setting the right culture even more so than trying to get things like time boxes correct. I was talking with a friend of mine at a conference recently and one of the things we kind of discussed was that whole inspect and adapt process, how important that just getting that ingrained into the DNA of what the team does. And Mike, like you said earlier, if they have that inspect and adapt built into who they are, then the practices come. The practices will actually kind of coincide with those because they'll find the right things to do. Like you said, they'll end up at the same place, right? They'll end up at the things that really are important to them. But I've seen lots of places where they go straight to the rule book and want to implement all the rules as quickly and possibly as they can. If the teams don't understand, when something goes wrong, when something does not happen the way that we thought it should, then that's a target to inspect. and dig in and find out why it happened that way, and then find a new way of doing it. I've told the story in classes before that I've encountered multiple situations, scenarios where I've worked with teams where they'll be doing something that they've identified as a problem. They've said, hey, yeah, this is wrong, this doesn't work. well, that's what I'm saying. Mike (17:26) Why are they doing it then? Brian (17:32) They'll identify something and say, yeah, that's not good. We need to do something else. But then they'll stop and say, all right, so let's really, we want to find the right thing to do to replace that with. So let's take the next two months and really investigate, find, and then we'll come back and we'll change in two months over this new thing. And my advice to them is always, so you're gonna just intentionally do the wrong thing for two months? Right. Mike (17:59) for two more months. Brian (18:01) You know, like you should try one of the other possibilities because you could get lucky and that could be the first thing you try. You know, and oftentimes it is something that is better because your gut instinct is usually pretty good about that kind of stuff. So yeah, try it. Something's not going well, all right? Then we're not doing that again, right? We're gonna try something new, whatever that is, and we're gonna try something new and then we'll do the same thing at the end of the next sprint. Mike (18:27) Mm -hmm. Yep. One of my favorite comedians, this guy named Bob Newhart died early, he was earlier this year. And he has this one comedy routine that he does where he's a psychiatrist and somebody walks into his office and she describes some problem he has. And he's like, okay, I'm going to give you the advice. It boils down to two words. And she goes like, should I take notes? Should I write the two words down? It's like, nope, you'll remember them. And he just looks her really like stern in the eye and says, stop it. Brian (18:54) you You Mike (18:59) She has a phone question. He's like, just stop it, right? Whatever you're doing, just stop it. And which is like just hilarious, right? Imagining, you know, some psychiatrist or therapist giving the advice of just stop doing whatever it is you're doing. But it's so reminiscent of what I've seen with agile teams, right? And with what you're describing here, you know, we're doing the wrong thing. We need to change, but we're going to stall looking for the perfect answer instead of just stopping and figuring out something, right? Just try something different. Brian (19:28) Yeah. And if our culture is a culture of always inspecting and adapting, then like you said, we'll end up at the right place because when something's wrong, we'll change it. And we won't just sit on something that we, I don't know how many times I've seen the organizations where you talk to people and take them out for a beer and they'll say, well, here's the real problems. everyone knows what the problems are. So why not fix it? Why not change it? Mike (19:41) Mm -hmm. Yeah. It's hard. It's hard in a lot of organizations. You and I both do sessions where we'll talk to executives, right? And to me, it's a really fun, like 90 minute training session that we have because the way we deliberately set that up was to talk about the benefits of agile. So we get people kind of interested, right? you know, those benefits. But then we tell them why it's going to be hard and what they're as executives, what was leaders, what they're going to have to change. And what I find is when we do that, if the leader starts arguing with me, because I tell them, look, here's going be hard. You're going to have to change this. You're going have to stop doing this. If they start arguing with me, we'll change that behavior if we get those benefits, then we know we've got them hooked and they want to be agile. But if I say agile's great, here are hard things you're going to have to change personally. And they're like, yeah, that'd be hard. We probably wouldn't make those changes. I don't want to go anywhere near working with that company. They're not going to succeed. They don't have a culture that's going to make those changes. And so I love doing those executive sessions because we hear it's just so instant, it's instant feedback on whether this company has a chance of being successful or not. Brian (21:06) Love him. Is there another one on from your list, Mike (21:10) One that I want to add is a little bit more about not just having one team be successful, but if you're working to get a set of teams, your department, your group, something like that. I think it's really important to have a consistent vocabulary across teams. Because we're talking about this idea of continuous improvement. And if your team and my team are using words differently, how do we share ideas back and forth? And that sharing of ideas is really important. if we don't have a consistent vocabulary, think it's hard to do. I worked with a team a couple years ago. I worked with this team, and I'm there for like two or three days. I think I'm there on the second day. And they've been using the words sprint and iteration interchangeably, just both words. And I'm sure you've encountered that. It's kind of normal. I think it kind of depends on if you grew up in the Scrum world, you call them sprints. If you grew up more generically agile, you call them iterations. They're using both words. And the second day I'm in a meeting and somebody says, well, yeah, that's how we do it in a sprint, but it's totally different when we're in an iteration. And I'm like, huh? What's the difference? And the guy had a really great answer. He said, a sprint is when we're working overtime and iteration is when we're going at a sustainable pace. That actually, there's a lot of logic to that. It's kind of a cool idea. I could see that. Brian (22:17) Ha ha ha. Mike (22:37) But I could tell by looking around the room that others were surprised as well. They'd been using the words interchangeably too. They didn't know there was this specific meaning that, I don't know, three Algel coaches had decided three years ago, this is how we use the words. But it wasn't part of, to your word, moment ago, culture. It wasn't part of their culture. And so some teams were calling them sprints, some teams were calling them iterations, and it was just creating a lot of confusion. when we found out that there were different meanings and different rules for whether you were in a sprint or iteration. So. Brian (23:08) Yeah. It reminds me of a Dilbert cartoon I saw a while ago, or it's been several years now, it was about, were talking to their big dumb boss, right? And they were saying, yeah, we're in the middle of a project and we're about halfway through, but we need, you know, six more months to complete this. All right. What's the project you're working on? We're taking all of our website addresses and we are transforming them into URLs. Right. Yeah. It's yeah. Okay. Yeah. Obviously, the boss didn't know the difference, right? Mike (23:37) That's a nice project, right? That's my assignment next month. Yeah, the vocabulary just creates confusion. like how Ken Rubin, I mentioned him earlier, the author of Essential Scrum, my favorite book on Scrum. You've had him as a guest before. I love how he writes his books. He starts out, I just start out, I just plunge in. just like, just start writing. And I have an outline, but I just start writing. Ken sits down for seriously months, I think it is. Brian (23:39) Right. Right. Mike (24:07) and defines a glossary, right? Here's how I'm gonna use certain words. then he, man, if he says a word means a certain thing, he uses it that way every single time. And he has a wonderful, agile glossary on his website, inolution .com. And so he's like defined every kind of agile word you could look for. He's got it defined there. But that's how he starts, right? So he defines all these words. And then if he writes a book and he... Brian (24:10) Wow. Mike (24:33) wants to use the term sprint, he knows exactly how he's going to use it. That's an easy one, but he will define all those words so they're clear up front. We do these working on a Scrum team classes for companies, which is a of a private whole team training class. And some of the feedback we get is that it really helped them get their vocabulary consistent. It allowed them to talk about ways to improve that were challenging until they had a common vocabulary. What is a Scrum master? What are the responsibilities of a Scrum Master? And that's not just defining the word sprint, but it's defining a more complex word and saying, what does it really mean? But if you don't have agreement on what a Scrum Master is or who is on the team or things like that, it's really hard to talk about that across a larger group. And so that, to me, is one of the secrets to Agile success is that consistent vocabulary. Brian (25:25) Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that class because one of the things that that that we do periodically when we are not here every time. One of things that we do when we have one of those classes is I'll meet with their with a company in advance and have a conversation about what is it that you really want to get out of this. And one of the most consistent things that I hear over and over again from companies that come to us is we want consistent vocabulary. We want a consistent language that people use across this so that When we say something, means the same thing across all our teams. Mike (25:58) I think it's become more of an issue the last, I don't know, five, 10 years or whatever it is because we've got so many people that know Agile by now, right? But of course, they were trained by different people. They were trained in different ways. And so they'll be coming to it and using terms slightly differently. I'm going give a little example here. Velocity, right? Velocity can really mean two different things to people. Velocity can mean the amount of forward progress you made. in a sprint, right? How much forward progress did we get? Instead, velocity could mean capacity to do work. How much work did we get done in the last sprint? And forward progress, capacity to do work are slightly different things, right? And if we don't have agreement on that term, we're going to get into those fights about, bugs count towards velocity, right? Well, if you're using velocity to mean capacity to do work, yeah, bugs should count. If you're using velocity to mean forward progress, no. Bugs shouldn't count. And defining velocity, having that conversation with the team, once you get that figured out, a whole set of problems go away. All those discussions about what gets points, they all go away instantly. But most teams don't think to have that conversation. And they will have some team members using velocity one way, others another way. Important to get that defined. It's not hard, but it's important to get that consistency. Brian, do you have another secret, or have we revealed all the secrets? Brian (27:24) Yeah, I got one more. I got one more. you might, you know, if you're listening this far, you may notice that I have a sickness. I picked all C words. I don't know why, but that's just what I had to do. But my last C word was communicate. And really just the idea here was, you know, if you've ever gone to see a youth sports team, you know, a kid's soccer, kids basketball, whatever, right? If you ever go to see any of those things, one of the things that you will hear over and over screamed from the sideline from the coaches is, talk to each other. And it's a really important part of learning how to play that sport is, hey, I've got a call for the ball. I've got to let everyone else know, hey, here's what I need. And I think that's an important part of Scrum as well. Scrum is a team sport. It's a... Mike (28:02) Haha. Brian (28:19) You know, I apologize to people in classes and say, apologize for the sports analogy, but scrum is a sports analogy. You know, it comes from rugby and, it's, it's intentionally there as a team sports so that people can, can recognize and look at that and say, yeah, we're not, we're not playing golf, right? We're, we're, playing this as a team altogether at the same time with the same goal. And so you got to talk to each other. You got to have communication. I know, you know, Mike (28:24) Yeah, itself, Brian (28:47) One of the main ways that we try to help that here at Mountain Goat is when we talk about things like user stories. That's a main tool that the teams will use in their communication back and forth between the business and the developers. And I know in your Better User Stories course, we go in detail about that. And we also have this thing that we do occasionally called a story writing workshop that's kind of more coaching, where we'll sit down with people and kind of Mike (29:01) Mm -hmm. Brian (29:17) actually work through stories that they're writing to help them effectively communicate what they're trying to get across to the developers. Any communication takes practice. Any relationship, the communication grows and gets better the more you do it. Mike (29:36) I think it's a good point about using user stories as an example, because one of the user story mistakes people make is to think that user stories exist to document an agreement. They don't. They exist to facilitate a conversation. And then the conversation is where we're going to figure out the specific needs and things like that. Yeah, maybe we could document that. It's got to be documented for various reasons. in many organizations, but the story itself is there's a reminder to have a conversation, right? It's not there to document an agreement, which is different from things that came before, like a use case or IEEE 830 document, right? Those did document agreements. User stories, they're there to make sure we talk. Brian (30:13) Right, right. Those were in essence contracts, right? I mean, they were, you shall do this, the system shall and whatever. But yeah, user stories, not that. I love the way that you put that and I've said that for years as well. It's a placeholder for the conversation. Mike (30:28) Well, let's add one more C then. didn't realize you were on a C theme here. So let's add one more secret to Agile success with a C. Crack the whip, right? Yell at your team, make them work harder, right? That's the secret to Agile success. I shouldn't say that because you'll pull that out as a little clip. crack the whip on your Agile team. That's how you get them successful, right? Brian (30:30) Hahaha! Hahaha. I can guarantee you that's gonna be the cold open here for our show. It's Mike Cone saying, the secret is cracking the whip. I love it. Well. Mike (30:59) So there was a great book by a guy named Carl Weigers on culture. is like creating a software engineering culture. And he has these little gray boxes in there. There are things not to do, right? Don't do this. But the boxes don't say don't do this, right? You have to have read like the intro to like, hey, don't do the things in the gray boxes. But he also has like anti -patterns in there. And I just remember being a, a, I think it was a director, VP at the company. And I showed it to one of the directors. I'm like, man, look at this. He's got guys highlighted all the things to do in the boxes here. And he was like, really? We should do that? Okay. And he was like, ready to go do these things. I was like, no, no, no, these are the things not to do. So you gotta be careful with things like crack the whip, right? It's, you know, a direct quote. It sounds pretty horrible. It's a joke. It's like, hopefully people understand. So. Brian (31:42) That's hilarious. Yeah, yeah, I think everyone who's, you know, listening to this would understand that, right? Would understand that that's a joke, but and just in case. Mike (31:56) As a guy who had the whip cracked on me as a young developer, I've always been a very much do not crack the whip. I'd rather I'm always after people's energy rather than their time. Right. It's kind of like we do four day work weeks, right? I'd rather have energy than time. And so, don't think cracking the whip is the way to succeed. Brian (32:15) Yeah, I'm in the same boat. remember having a boss once that used to take me into the server room to yell at me because he could raise his voice in there and nobody would hear it. So, that was fun. Right, right. Well, this has been great, Mike. I really appreciate you making time for this. And I think everyone's going to get a of good tips out of this. Mike (32:23) You I gotta remember that. Great, thanks for having me, Brian. Bye.

In this episode, Brian Milner and Lance Dacy dive into the evolving world of software development, exploring how AI and automation are reshaping the landscape. They discuss the essential skills developers need in this new era, from embracing AI as a tool to mastering emotional intelligence and continuous learning. Overview Brian and Lance discuss the transformative impact AI and automation are having on the software industry. They explore the importance of adaptability, continuous learning, and cross-functional expertise, emphasizing how developers can thrive by embracing AI as a tool rather than a threat. The conversation highlights the growing need for soft skills like emotional intelligence, curiosity, and collaborative leadership, and encourages developers to be open to new technologies and ways of working to stay competitive in the ever-evolving tech landscape. References and resources mentioned in the show: Lance Dacy Big Agile “Be curious, not judgemental” – Walt Whitman #54: Unlocking Agile’s Power in the World of Data Science with Lance Dacy #63: The Interplay Between Data Science and Agile with Lance Dacy #82: The Intersection of AI and Agile with Emilia Breton #99: AI & Agile Learning with Hunter Hillegas Accurate Agile Planning Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant's heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. How's your week going? I hope everyone's week is going well. Yeah, I'm switching things up. I'm not saying things exactly as I did the past 100 episodes. But welcome in. I hope you guys are having a great week. We are back with you here at the Agile Mentors Podcast. And I have one of our favorites back with us. I have one of our repeat visitors, Lance Dacys with us. Welcome back, Lance. Lance Dacy (00:28) Thank you, Brian. Great to be here. Brian (00:30) Always excited to have Lance with us because we always have such great conversations. And I wanted to have Lance back because we were talking about something recently that I think might be a good topic for us, might be on a lot of people's minds. And that is really kind of getting into this, what we've loosely termed the new age of development. With the new tools and new kind of the way that AI has worked its way into things and automation. How is this going to change and affect our teams? How is it going to change and affect how we develop? How is it going to change and affect the software industry? Lance, I know you had some thoughts on this. I'm going to just open the floor for you and let you take it from there. Lance Dacy (01:15) That's great, Brian. My heart is always with organizations and developers, just trying to help people get better. You and I shared that vision that I remember a long time ago, even at DFW Scrum, one of our vision statements was just trying to help you to do better today than you did yesterday. It's like, what are the things that we can help teams and organizations? And something's real heavy on my mind lately as I work with these teams. You know, we have these notions out there like Agile is dead and, you know, where is Agile headed? And that's not really what this is about here because I think what's happening, as a lot of people have already said, it's just become more of the mainstream. Let's quit labeling it. You know, like Mike always tells us, object -oriented programming won. We don't really call it that anymore. Objects won and off we went. So I'm not really focused so much on the agile type scenario, but we do work in Scrum and agile teams and I see plenty of organizations that need help with that. And I still encounter to this day, developers who are lagging behind on their skills, right? We get so focused in the day -to -day feature development of our roadmap and things like that. that I just fear that developers aren't setting enough time aside or not challenging the organization to help them do that, to learn new skills. And I started compiling this list of like, if I go in and start teaching teams how to do scrum and how to manage your backlog and how to do that, it doesn't matter if they don't have the skills because everything we talk about in Agile is based on reducing waste and the more of these skills gaps that we have. then I find the more handoffs and the more bottlenecks and you know that's one of the eight waste, you know, of lean. And so that's what I wanted to talk about today. And I love the topic like the new age of development. I'm not going to sit here in a spouse to claim to say, here's all the skills you're going to need. But as you and I work, I think we can find plenty of examples to help guide some of these people, even Scrum Masters that are coaching teams or agile coaches, you know, just kind of put some thoughts in their mind about. know, these skills and I have about a short list of five that I've seen growing and then thought we'd go from there. Brian (03:30) That sounds great. I want to dive into one that I know is on your list and it's one we kind of talked about here beforehand, but that is kind of how AI is affecting teams and the skills needed to be relevant with that. Now, I want to preface this by just saying my own personal opinion here on this. I'm not a doom and gloom person when it comes to AI. don't really see it much different than... Lance Dacy (03:34) Thank So, I'll see you. Brian (03:59) how automation really changed things like testing. When automation entered the testing realm, we didn't lose all our testers. We still needed testing. It just was a tool that enhanced the way we did testing. And I think AI is sort of going to be that for how we program. don't think we're at a place where, or I don't know, things could change quickly, obviously, but I don't feel like we're within 10 years. of it completely replacing developers. I think we're still going to need to have expertise. We're still going to need to have that guidance. Maybe 10 years is too big of a window. don't know. Maybe five years? I don't know. Lance Dacy (04:42) These days you don't know. I just thought yesterday something changed. No, I'm just kidding. Brian (04:46) Right, right. But I don't see that happening in the near term window for sure, just because it does a lot of things well, but it doesn't create. It can do things based on what's already been done, but it can't really then go through and create something entirely new itself. So I think you still need human beings for that component of it. Lance Dacy (05:04) Done. Brian (05:15) And I think for developers, learning how to integrate that kind of tool set to help you reduce your errors, define bugs, AI is great at looking over a huge chunk of your code and finding potential issues that you can go back and look at. That can save you enormous amounts of time. So I think there's skill involved there for for the developers segment that I think is embracing it rather than kind of holding it at arm's length and saying, that's the enemy, that's gonna somehow replace me. No, think of it like automation. It's not to replace you, it's just another tool to enhance and give you time to do other things. Lance Dacy (06:02) I think, you know, you mentioned, don't think you and I either would be convicted of being doom and gloom people. think we're pretty well optimistic, right? It is scary. mean, obviously these things that are changing, you're like, my gosh, I have to, the main word I keep thinking about is adaptability. You know, I've got four kids. I keep telling them the best skill they can do is learn how to learn, you know, and I think you just used a perfect example in development about test automation. Brian (06:10) Yeah. Lance Dacy (06:30) We weren't scared of that. The testers might have been because they're like, well, what do I do now? Well, you got to go learn a new skill, right? But it freed us up. Can you imagine still doing, there's companies out there that still do manual testing, and they have to wait until all the changes are in until they do testing, and you will never compete. in a good hyper competitive marketplace doing things like this. So the test automation freed us up and actually what I used to tell my teams is it gives you more confidence, right? So developers can make more radical changes in the code without feeling like, know, you. You blow on something and then it breaks. know, y 'all ever seen code like that before? And it's like, I think it builds their confidence that test automation helped them to be more efficient and more productive because they can experiment more. think that's the goal is I write this code and I can quickly test to see what happens. And I start building my confidence and I can make more radical changes to the system instead of tiptoeing or walking on eggshells. So I'll date myself a little bit. Your example is probably much better than mine. But can you believe I don't use a Maps Go anymore? Y 'all remember the days of trying to navigate a street address with a Maps Go or a real map? I mean, I'm kind of at that bridge where we started having online maps, but you still had to know where you're going and print it out before you left and then take it in your car. You're still trying to read it as you're driving. I mean, who does that anymore, right? So I get in my car these days and now I don't even have to plug CarPlay or Android or whatever you have. It's wireless. You just get in and I'm now a co -pilot in my car. And we kind of laughed about that. think the last episode we're on and I can just drive around in it. I just do what it tells me to do. But it'll never replace my experience, my opinions, and my knowledge of the world. So I can. Brian (08:05) Right. Lance Dacy (08:20) you know, sidestep any suggestions it has, but it helps me be more productive. It knows where traffic is. I don't know that. You know, I know the city I live in and I know five different ways to get somewhere, but I don't know if there's a road closed or anything like that. So I feel like with developers, we need to start embracing some of these tools to help you be more confident, help you. mean, goal of agility, right, is to go faster, go faster than our competitors. So I feel like that's the premise of what we're trying to accomplish here is optimism with these tools. AI is just one of them. But we all have that in our day -to -day lives. test automation is good. I've got the driving. What's another one you got, Brian, that's made you more efficient with AI? Brian (09:01) Well, just before we move on, one thing I wanted to kind of throw out there because I heard this example recently for AI and I thought this was a kind of a really good practical example. If you've been a developer for any amount of time or if you've ever developed in the past, you've unlikely encountered a situation where you've had to go into somebody else's code. And when you do that and you have to enter, especially if it's like a rat's nest of code that you can't really make it out, it's been there for a long time. and it's fragile, no one wants to delve into it. Well, I read this article from a guy who basically had used this legacy code base and entered into AI and had AI go through and comment and help them learn what the different sections of the code did and how it was structured and organized. And it just saved them an enormous amount of time in trying to understand what had come before. Because you know, Like I said, we've all entered those places where we've had to come in behind someone else that is no longer there and try to figure out where we get started, even if it's not code, right? Even if it's something else, but we've all had to come behind someone else. And if we can take a folder full of documents, feed it into AI and then say, help me understand blah, blah, blah. Yeah, summarize this. Help me understand where would I go for this? That's just an enormous time saver. And that's what I think is really great about it is Lance Dacy (10:17) you summarize this. Brian (10:27) So as far as skills are concerned, think prompt engineering is a good one. think coding, interacting with code with an AI agent so that you can create your own AI agents so that you can programmatically call that information. If you're a coder and you can do that, man, to me it's like it just exploded. And now the possibilities are endless of what you can do with that kind of stuff. Lance Dacy (10:57) just dated myself with Cliff Notes too, right? Just think of it like on the fly Cliff Notes. And I heard Alastair Coburn, one of the thought leaders in our industry, been around for a very long time trying to help humans and machines interact better. And he kind of summarized really well about what it's doing in his life is saving him keystrokes. Brian (11:03) Right! Lance Dacy (11:19) And that's kind of like what I wanted to focus on with developers. Can you imagine if you got to spend more time being creative and less time writing on a keyboard to the computer, like you just talk to it. I'm getting to the point now, I used to text all the time and I used to laugh at people that hold the phone up to their voice and they talk into it. I fat finger things and misspelled things so much, all I do is just talk into it anymore. So I feel like coding, that's what it's, you're not even going to tell it the code to write. You're going to have to be... more problem solving design engineer, you less code writing, more problem solving and understanding the domain in which you're trying to automate and algorithm design and ethical considerations that go along with that. But the computer won't be able to do that, but it'll save you keystrokes. It'll save you time. And I think Alistair summed that up pretty good that way. Brian (12:07) Yeah, it's architecture, right? We have to be better architects at what it is we're trying to develop. that way we can give the rough architecture and let AI do the dirty work of the small details to fill in. Lance Dacy (12:21) Well, you mentioned something too about boundaries, right? So AI has to operate within boundaries of what you feed it to learn off of. It's very, I'm not going to say never always really, that's a hard thing to say these days, but it's going to be very surprising if AI can just generate new ideas. It'll probably generate new ideas, but from what? I was working with a client yesterday that comes from more of the manufacturing world and he's really struggling with leadership agility. Like how do I lead and build a culture in a world for people who do the kind of work that we normally focus on with software engineering and development? He said he's a mechanical engineer and I kept using the word knowledge work, right? So the people who do our kind of work, the reason it's so complex, risky, uncertain, unpredictable and all those things is because it's kind of like knowledge and critical thinking and creative work. And he goes, but how is that different? I'm a mechanical engineer. How does that differ from software engineer? And I said, you know, it's a really good point. It's nothing about who's smarter than who, right? So I'm not trying to put anybody down on that. But in the world of mechanical engineering, you are bound by physics. are like you work in the space industry. Yeah, you're doing some cool things and you got to come up with new ways of doing things, but you still have to operate with. physics and astrophysics within those boundaries that we know about with space. But in software, and I sit down and start writing something, there's no boundaries. Like I can use any technology I want, can come up with any, I'm limited by my own skills and abilities. So why not let AI go help me get ideas? I'm not saying you got to write it all for you, because hey, I told one of the AI tools to write me an e -commerce site in Ruby on Rails. and it gave me all the scaffolding and if I would have taken that and start putting it in, then I can start elaborate. But how much time does that save me? How am gonna construct the file? So it kind of handles that architecture, but then I gotta put my critical thinking on it. I just feel like it's gonna make us, if we embrace it correctly, it's just gonna make us more efficient in that way. Brian (14:22) I agree. So what was one of the other skills that you had down that you thought of as being a new era kind of skill? Lance Dacy (14:29) So I'll just go through the four left real quick. I was thinking about cross -functional expertise and we can dive into some of those a little bit. Most Scrum teams we say, hey, you got to have cross -functional teams. And that doesn't mean everybody knows everything. It just means we have all the skills on the team to bring something usable by the end of the iteration. But I feel like cross -functional these days is no longer about coding. Like I know a front -end developer, back -end developer, database person, tester, UI, UX, architecture. These are more like understanding what we call now DevOps, cloud infrastructure, hardware, software integration, particularly in fields like, I work with some defense people, some aerospace engineering, writing code is like bare minimum anymore. So if you can do that, celebrate that, but you've got to move beyond that and start understanding these machines hardware, which leads me to my next one, which is continuous learning and adaptability. because the rate of change in software frameworks and tools we just talked about has accelerated. And if we're not keeping up with that and learning from that, you're gonna be left behind. So be agile in that regard. The last two I had on my list, one I'm just gonna brand it as cybersecurity. Brian (15:47) Yeah. Lance Dacy (15:47) cryptography, like I got a, went to school and for data science, you know, got my master's degree when just after COVID started, I had no idea what I was thinking, but it actually was pretty good because it was all online anyway. But I had to take a lot of cryptography classes way over my head, but at least I understand the terminology and the nomenclature, but that's going to be the key. is, and I've read somewhere, I can't remember the article, but there's like a shortage of 79 ,000 jobs in cryptography. So if you're looking and you're scared for the future, go start learning cryptography and security because these, you know, specifically zero trust architecture, these things that a lot of blockchains have been pioneering in the last couple of years, we're going to have to start locking these things down because every time we find a better way to do security, a hacker undoes that. And this was the cat and mouse game forever and ever. I don't think that will go away. So cybersecurity and more like risk management, you need to understand coding practices for that, as well as how the hardware, the protocols, how do these things talk to one another? And then the last one I just branded is more like... collaborative leadership and communication. need a stronger, you know, used to we would think of software coders sitting in a dark basement, just leave them alone and let them code. And I think we're getting to the direct opposite of that. They need to be leaders out talking to the people who need these systems, going back to that cross -functional expertise. you need to do better communication to the non -technical people so you understand what you're trying to accomplish and automate for those people in the world of cybersecurity and how software tools are changing. People get tired of the buzzwords, right? The technology jargon. So you're going to have to learn how to do that. And I think data scientists are going to be, they're kind of the first group that I've seen this happen. Like when we talk about data science and analytics and AI and Scrum, We've done a couple of podcasts on that. The issue is not just, I'm going to demonstrate what I've shown you, but now I'm going to partner with you and say what I think we should do next. Like I can model a data system ad infinitum, but my theory is I think I've done the best we can do. You can spend two more million dollars and we'll get this much or spend a thousand dollars. do this. And you have to partner with them on that. So those are kind of the five here. You mentioned the first one. So AI and automation, integration, things like that, cross -functional expertise. continuous learning and adaptability, the cryptography, cybersecurity realm, whatever you want to call it, and then collaborative, more collaborative leadership and communication. So those were the five gaps that I think if developers are scared and want to shore up their skills, those are kind of the five that I'm telling my teams to go look for. Brian (18:38) That's a great list. I throw a couple, I don't have a full list like you brought, but there's a couple of things that just popped in my head that I would throw into that list as well. One is what I'm just going to call teaming. Because I think there's a need, there's a real need in the marketplace today of people understanding how to do work in a team. Because regardless of what the work is, regardless of what the industry is or the Lance Dacy (18:51) Yeah. Brian (19:07) backdrop is, you know, most, most jobs, you work together with a group of people to accomplish something in some way, shape or form. That's part of the reasons why shows like The Office or movies like Office Space are so funny is because it's so bad in so many places that people don't really, we laugh at it because we all painfully are aware of how bad it is. Right? Right. Lance Dacy (19:35) It's real. We get it the mark. Brian (19:38) So being able to understand how a group of people actually do work together well to accomplish something. And I'm not talking about hokey kind of motivational, hey everybody, let's make sure we put on our happy faces today. Right, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about just, we all go, know, the way I explained it in classes, do we think of teaming as sort of the way you would do golf on a team? where everybody goes and shoots their own 18 holes and then we total up the score? Or do you think of teaming more like it would be in football or basketball or soccer or something like that where everyone's on the field at the same time, we all have the same goal, we're all moving towards the same goal and we do whatever is needed to accomplish that goal. We have to work together. If you go to any youth sport in the world that's a team, what's the one thing that you'll hear people say, from a sideline over and over the coaches say to the team, you got to talk to each other. Right, communicate, talk to each other, call for the ball, right? And that's such an essential teaming kind of component of that, that I think that's one of the big things there is just being able to understand how to team. Lance Dacy (20:37) Communicate, yeah. Well, and if you don't know what you're supposed to do, ask somebody. So that's the, you know, I'm not going into psychological safety, but how many people feel safe in an organization going, I don't know how to do this because then you're like, my gosh, if I don't know how to do it, I'll get fired. I lose my job. do this. so cultures have to change as well. I don't have that on my list because this was more specific to contributing it as a team. But I think that's a really important call out. know, professional sports get a bad rap when we use analogies. I love them. because I love sports and I know some people don't play sports and I get that, but you at least have seen them. But that's a great example of five people, 11 people, eight people, whoever it is on the field together with one goal. How important is that? And how often do organizations do a good job at centering people around a one goal? Terrible. We do a terrible job at that. But that's out of the, developers, when I say collaborative leadership, they need to start pushing on those things. So that's, I guess we could call those soft skills. What would you call those, Brian? Brian (21:53) Well, actually that was gonna be my next thing was kind of more of these soft skills that I know a lot of people really hate that term and you can use whatever term you wanna. Right, I mean, that's one of them, right? But I mean, just being able to navigate conflict on a team. Lance Dacy (22:01) emotional intelligence. I've heard that. Yeah, fill in gaps when you don't have a skill. Go learn it. Solve, work the problem. You know, remember Apollo 13 is like one of my favorite movies. It was a really well done one. And Ed Harris is a great example in that, as he plays Gene Crantz, know, as Apollo 13 was having its issues. Brian (22:17) Yeah. Lance Dacy (22:27) and work the problem people, they don't know what they're doing. They're all smart people getting together, but they need something. They have to talk and collaborate. So I think that's a huge one. how do you learn to do that? You gotta go do it. You can't read a book and say, how do I get more collaborative? You gotta have, I call it attitude, aptitude, and drive. If you don't have the right attitude or tone when you work with people, They're going to shy away from you and not tell you everything you think. So you want to be approachable. You want to be, hey, bring me any problem you have. Let's talk about it. Like you want to be, that's what I call the right attitude to succeed. Aptitude obviously is your ability to learn something new and get up to speed. And then the drive to succeed. How many people have you worked with where they just do the bare minimum getting by just collecting their paycheck, you know? developers face that, right? So if you're one of those people, if you really want to shore up your skill, go figure out how to change your attitude or maybe you're in the wrong business. But how would you, you know, that's a good one to think about. How would you help fine tune those as a person? What could you go do to shore up your attitude, aptitude and drive? I'll put you on the spot, Brian. I'm sorry. you've done a lot of good talks recently on the neurodivergent and I know you've Brian (23:38) What? Lance Dacy (23:44) you know, the research that you've done on that, that's more of what I'm talking about here is finding your place in the world of every, you know, bring your gift and talent in whatever state it is, but how could you train yourself to be more approachable and have a better drive? What do you think? Brian (23:59) Yeah, well, so my biggest advice there is, I'll quote Ted Lasso who's quoting someone else, but right, be curious, not judgmental, right? That old phrase, which is not his, I forget where it comes from, I think it was, I don't wanna get it wrong. Right, right. Lance Dacy (24:10) We all knew something from Ted Lasso, right? You'll put it in the notes, I guess, later. Brian (24:27) But that phrase I think should be kind of a hallmark for how we approach things is with curiosity. Like why is it this way? Why is it working this way? And what's behind that rather than that's wrong or that's bad or that's whatever. Right, right. You know, someone does things a different way. Well, that's curious. I wonder why they do that that way. Is that the best way to do things? Let's discuss it. Let's analyze it. Lance Dacy (24:42) Or what are you making? Brian (24:56) I just want to briefly say too, when you mentioned the sports analogies things and how we get in trouble sometimes for using sports analogies, I say this in my classes, at its core, I can't really completely get away from sports analogies because Scrum is a sports analogy. Lance Dacy (25:17) In 1986, they used a professional example, team example, of how products were succeeding in 86. Sony, know, Honda, Canon, all of them, and that's what spawned that article for it, right? Brian (25:23) Right. And that article says, you know, the relay race approach to doing things is not the right way. That's a sports analogy, right? It's talking about relay races and handing the baton off between one runner and the other runner. And, you know, that's a sports analogy. And think in teaming, there's an inherent kind of, all right, we don't have to get into all the rules and regulations of the different sports. You don't have to follow them. But I think we can, like you said, I think we can all understand. that when you have a team on the field at the same time, there's a big difference between that and, like I said, golf, where I'm just gonna go shoot my 18 holes, right? But what somebody else is doing doesn't affect me, right? I mean, it affects me at the end of the day with the score, but it doesn't affect, if I'm on the fifth hole, I don't really need to even know what anybody else is doing because I'm just, I'm shooting the best 18 holes I can shoot, right? Lance Dacy (26:08) Do the best I can in my one skill. Yeah. And you do have a shared goal, right? We're trying to get the best score, but you're more limited. You can't help other people. Like what is the, it's the attitude I really think, I wish I had a better word for it, but when you walk out on the field, you either are there to do whatever you can to succeed within your capacity and have an attitude of, let's pick each other up. Everybody's going to have good and bad days. We know that. So somebody's going to show up on the team and be like, man, I'm sick or. I'm moving and I'm scattered all over the place and I'm going to be a little flighty this week. People pick each other up. Like, how do we learn to do that, Brian? How do we, how do we, how can we teach people, especially developers to contribute on their teams in that way? It's not about your skills. It's about your attitude, your aptitude and drive. Brian (27:12) Yeah, and I think what's at the core of that for a lot of teams and I had several conversations with the different agile conferences I went to this year with people about this. There's this cultural aspect that is so much more important than any of the details that we get into as far as meeting length and who attends and all that. It's just at its core, do you inspect and adapt? Right? Do you actually take time when you... Lance Dacy (27:21) Yep. Brian (27:42) And it sounds so simple, right? But how many times have you been involved with something at work where everyone knows it's the wrong way to do it, right? Everyone knows that's a terrible thing that's happening in our work. And we all can just kind of shrug our shoulders and say, well, I guess that's the way it has to be. Why? Why don't we inspect and say, why are we doing it that way? Is there another way we could do things? And then we try something different. Lance Dacy (28:07) Well, and pull it up because the other problem is the hierarchy of a traditional management driven organization is do I have the courage, you know, one of the scrum values courage to raise that flag and stand up for what's right or our fear of losing my job. And I'm going to encourage you developers out there. If you really want to do a great job, you're a great developer and you're not just trying to get by. I would challenge you like I had to learn a long time ago and say, if I do those things and I get fired, I don't want to work at that organization anyway. But that takes a lot more courage because you got a family and you got all this stuff. But you might have your answer if you start raising the flag. don't be an ass about it. Be an attitude, aptitude, and drive. But that's why I said number three on my list here was continuous learning and adaptability. You have to learn that. Brian (28:54) Yeah. Yeah. And I'll give you kind of a practical example here. So if you're working on a team and let's say that you need to get approval to do something, okay? If you have to get that approval and you know that approval is going to cause a delay because I've got to go get approval to do this. Well, be curious, ask the question, why do I need to have this approval? What's the purpose behind getting this approval? And if the answer, if there is a good answer, right? Well, we have to do that because compliance is really important with us and our safety or whatever. And if we don't do that, then we can have a catastrophic event. All right, there's a good reason to get approval. But if the reason comes back, well, because that's the way it always has been, we've always had to ask four layers of approval to get something done. Maybe then question it and say, hey, is there a... Can you help me understand the purpose of getting these four layers of approval? Is there really a need to get four layers of approval for this? What's the downside if I don't get approval for this? Is it catastrophic if I make a decision that maybe one of those four layers of approval disagrees with? Can it still be changed later? What I try to tell people is the speed you get from not having to go through those four layers of approval is far outweighing any kind of small mistake that that person might make. So that's kind of a practical example to say, be curious about it. Try to inspect and adapt. Why is it this way? Does it need to be this way? Is there a reason why we're doing it this way? And if there's not a good answer as to why, then I think it's not bad to question it. Lance Dacy (30:39) Yeah. And they're never going to say, well, we like ossified and calcified processes. Every time we have a problem, we add more checks and balances to them. We never remove them. And that's one of the bane of the team's existences these days is, yeah, we got to mitigate risk and we can't be haphazard, but that's why you got to shore up your skills on this automation and get better at problem solving, less coding and more problem solving. And I tell you what, Brian, we were going to wrap up at the end of the podcast with what I wanted to talk about is don't be scared about AI because I don't think, like I said, I don't want to use the word never or always, but I really think it's going to be hard for AI to learn and take our place in number one, emotional intelligence and empathy. you know, AI can certainly analyze patterns of what it's been for, but truly understanding emotions, nuance, and the complexities of human relationships, which is what we're talking about here. Tone AI don't, I don't think it'll ever really learn how to do that or well. All right. on top of that, be the ethical side of it, right? The cultural things and ethical, know, you could put boundaries on it. can give it rules. But I think humans have a really good, well, most humans have a good sense of that. So I think emotional intelligence and empathy, I creative problem solving and artistry. I kind of use the word artistry for developers as well, like writing code and architecting code and the hardware infrastructure and all that that goes into that. AI can generate the beginning, like AI can generate art. It can generate music if you heard some of these things. I mean, they're good. I see the art, I see the music, but it's all based on patterns. It lacks the ability to produce truly original works that stem from like live experiences and personal insights. So celebrate that and bring that to your job. And I think alongside that is complex thinking, know, strategic thinking, leadership, critical thinking, things like that. know, AI is effective at optimizing and analyzing data and helps us, you know, like COBOL used to read and write data faster than any other system. Humans can't keep up with that. Our processor is the bottleneck. So use that, offload that to something else. But your leadership requires abstract thinking and foresight and the ability to motivate people is something that AI really is not going to be able to do. So start shifting your focus from, you know, the things of data and analyzing. let the computer summarize that and then you put your critical thinking on it. And I think that's where you're going to find a better place for yourself as developers. You're going to be and need to be technologists, but that blurring of the line between DevOps and coding is coming and coming and coming. So you have to start learning the hardware that's running all this stuff and make higher level decisions and less of the lower level. So celebrate your emotional intelligence. your empathy, build those skills up, never lose sight of critical problem solving and artistry that you bring to the table and complex thinking and adaptability. Those are the things that you need to focus on, I think, as developers and embrace this AI to make you more efficient. That's my opinion. Brian (33:59) Yeah. And I'd say, you know, I just tag one last thing on that and it's to say, you know, with the new tools, with the new kind of AI stuff and things that come along, be curious, not judgmental. Ask about how I could use that to my advantage. You you mentioned the music kind of software. I think I know musicians who are using that kind of software to help them, but they see it more as a tool, not as, and now it'll do the job for me. just like I wouldn't go and put in into chat GBT, write me a whole book on something, right? Right, right. I'm not gonna go, if I'm a musician, I'm not gonna go say write a whole song and I'm gonna just take that lock, second barrel, here's everything that that put out and I'm not gonna alter their change. No, but I can get an idea, I can get a melody or a hook or something that I could use and then I can build upon that. So. Lance Dacy (34:34) And then just spin that over. Yeah. And those are always patterns, like every music you hear somebody, it could sound like another song. So you're not really violating ethics there. Like I used AI one time, you my son's learning how to do guitar and I play piano, but I was like, give me eight chord structures that are sad. I mean, there's a certain number of combinations and you listen to them and you're like, okay, now I can add a song under that. But I didn't have to sit around and pick forever and ever like they did, you know, in the old days, which I celebrate that. I think that's great. But why not have eight of them there? And I say, I like that one or don't give me eight more, you know, give me eight more. Brian (35:13) Sure. Right, right, right. So think of it more as a tool, right? Well, this has been great. think this is, hopefully we've given everyone a lot to think about here. And if there's one thing I kind of sum up, I hope that people look at it, maybe we're a little too Pollyanna about this, if that's a dated reference too, but naive. But I would say, Lance Dacy (35:32) Yeah. Brian (35:57) try to be more hopeful about these tools and say, can I use them to my advantage rather than how can I, how is it going to destroy it? Lance Dacy (36:04) Attitude, aptitude and drive. Have a great attitude, right? Say, hey, I'm going to embrace this stuff and not so much doom and gloom. Go figure out how you can use it to your advantage and you're going to separate yourself from everybody else. Totally agree with that. Brian (36:07) There we go. Love it. Well, Lance, thanks for coming on again. I appreciate you taking time. Lance Dacy (36:21) My pleasure. As always, I look forward to our next one, Brian. Y 'all have a great week.

What do lizards have to do with product growth? In this episode, Gojko Adzic reveals how unusual user behaviors can unlock massive opportunities for product innovation. Discover the four steps to mastering "Lizard Optimization" and learn how you can turn strange user actions into game-changing insights. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, host Brian Milner chats with Gojko Adzic about his new book, Lizard Optimization. Gojko explains the concept of finding product growth signals in strange user behaviors, sharing examples where unexpected user actions led to product breakthroughs. He outlines a four-step process for optimizing products by learning, zeroing in, removing obstacles, and double-checking. Gojko also discusses helpful tools like session recorders and observability tools that can enhance product development by uncovering and addressing unique user behaviors. References and resources mentioned in the show: Gojko Adzic 50% OFF Lizard Optimization by Gojko Adzic Mismatch: How Inclusion Shapes Design by Kat Holmes Trustworthy Online Experiments by Ron Kohavi Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Gojko Adzic is an award-winning software consultant and author, specializing in agile and lean quality improvement, with expertise in impact mapping, agile testing, and behavior-driven development. A frequent speaker at global software conferences, Gojko is also a co-creator of MindMup and Narakeet, and has helped companies worldwide enhance their software delivery, from large financial institutions to innovative startups. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today, very special guest we have with us. have Mr. Goiko Atshich with us. I hope I said that correctly. Did I say it correctly? Close enough. Okay. Well, welcome in, Goiko. Glad to have you here. Gojko (00:15) Close enough, close enough. Brian (00:21) Very, very, very happy to have Goiko with us. If you're not familiar with Goiko's name, you probably are familiar with some of his work. One of the things I was telling him that we teach in our advanced product owner class every time is impact mapping, which is a tool that Goiko has written about and kind of come up with on his own as well. Gojko (00:21) Thank you very much for inviting me. Brian (00:47) But today we're having him on because he has a new book coming out called Lizard Optimization, Unlock Product Growth by Engaging Long Tail Users. And I really wanted to talk to him about that and help him explain, have him explain to us a little bit about this idea, this new concept that his new book is about. So, Goiko, let's talk about it. Lizard Optimization, in a nutshell, what do you mean by that? What is it? Gojko (01:14) We're going to jump into that, but I just need to correct one of the things you said. I think it's very, very important. You said I came up with impact mapping and I didn't. I just wrote a popular book about that. And it's very important to credit people who actually came up with that. It's kind of the in -use design agency in Sweden. And I think, you know, they should get the credit for it. I literally just wrote a popular book. Brian (01:19) Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha, gotcha. Apologies for that incorrect. Thank you for making that correction. So lizard optimization. Gojko (01:44) So, lizard optimization. Good. So, lizard optimization is an idea to find signals for product ideas and product development ideas in strange user behaviors. When you meet somebody who does something you completely do not understand, why on earth somebody would do something like that? Brian (02:03) Okay. Gojko (02:11) and it looks like it's not done by humans, it looks like it's done by somebody who follows their own lizard logic, using stuff like that as signals to improve our products. Not just for lizards, but for everybody. So the idea came from a very explosive growth phase for one of the products I'm working on, where it... had lots of people doing crazy things I could never figure out why they were doing it. For example, one of the things the tool does is it helps people create videos from PowerPoints. You put some kind of your voiceover in the speaker notes, the tool creates a video by using text to speech engines to create voiceover from the speaker notes, aligns everything and it's all kind of for you. People kept creating blank videos and paying me for this. I was thinking about why on earth would somebody be creating blank videos and it must be a bug and if it's a bug then they want their money back and they'll complain. So I chased up a few of these people and I tried to kind of understand what's going on because I originally thought we have a bug in the development pipeline for the videos. So... I started asking like, you know, I'm using some, I don't know, Google slides or, you know, keynote or whatever to produce PowerPoints. Maybe there's a bug how we read that. And the person, no, no, we, know, official Microsoft PowerPoint. They said, well, can you please open the PowerPoint you uploaded? Do you see anything on the slides when you open it? And the person, no, it's blank. Right? Okay, so it's blank for you as well. I said, yeah. So. Brian (03:48) Yeah. Gojko (03:54) What's going on? so what I've done is through UX interviews and iterating with users and research, we've made it very, very easy to do advanced configuration on text -to -speech. And it was so much easier than the alternative things that people were creating blank PowerPoints just to use the text -to -speech engines so they can then extract the audio track from it. Brian (03:54) Yeah, why? Gojko (04:23) and then use that and it was this whole mess of obstacles I was putting in front of people to get the good audio. It wasn't the original intention of the tool. It wasn't the original value, but people were getting unintended value from it. And then I ended up building just a very simple screen for people to upload the Word document instead of PowerPoints. And it was much faster for users to do that. A month later, there was many audio files being built as videos. Two months later, audio... production overtook video production. then at the moment, people are building many, many more audio files than video files on the platform. So it was an incredible growth because of this kind of crazy insight of what people were doing. kind of usually, at least kind of in the products I worked on before, when you have somebody abusing the product, product management fight against it. There's a wonderful story about this in... Founders at work a book by Jessica Livingston and she talks about this kind of group of super smart people in late 90s who Came up with a very very efficient Cryptography algorithm and a way to compute the cryptography so they can run it on low -power devices like Paul pilots Paul pilots were you know like mobile phones, but in late 90s and Then they had to figure out, how do we monetize this? Why would anybody want to do this? So they came up with the idea to do money transfer pumping, Palm pilots, you know, why not? And kind of the built a website. This was the late nineties as a way of just demoing this software to people who didn't have a Palm pilot device next to them. The idea was that you'd kind of see it on the website, learn about it, then maybe download the Palm pilot app and use it in anger. People kept just using the website, they're not downloading the Palm Pilot app. So the product management really wasn't happy. And they were trying to push people from the website to the Palm Pilot app. were trying to, they were fighting against people using this for money transfer on the web and even prohibiting them from using the logo and advertising it. They had this whole thing where nobody could explain why users were using the website because it was a demo thing. It was not finished. It was not sexy. It was just silly. And Jessica kind of talks to one of these people who insists that it was totally inexplicable. Nobody could understand it. But then a bit later, they realized that the website had one and half million users and that the Pongpilot app had 12 ,000 users. So they kind of decided, well, that's where the product is really. And that's like today, people know them as PayPal. They're one of the biggest payment processes in the world because kind of, you know, they realized this is where the product is going. And I think in many, many companies, people Brian (07:03) Ha ha. Gojko (07:18) stumble upon these things as happy accidents. And I think there's a lot more to it. We can deliberately optimize products by looking for unintended usage and not fighting it, just not fighting it. just understand this is what people are getting as value. And I think for me as a solo product founder and developer and product manager on it, One of the really interesting things is when you have somebody engaging with your product in an unexpected way, most of the difficult work for that user is already done. That person knows about you, they're on your website or they're using your product, the marketing and acquisition work is done. But something's preventing them from achieving their goals or they're achieving some value that you did not really know that they're going to achieve. you know, that's something the product can do to help them and remove these obstacles to success. So that's kind of what lizard optimization is making this process more systematic rather than relying on happy accidents. And by making it more systematic, then we can help product management not fight it and skip this whole phase of trying to fight against our users and claim that users are stupid or non -technical or... They don't understand the product, but they're trying to figure out, well, that's what the real goals are. And then following that. Brian (08:47) That's awesome. So the pivot, right? The pivot from here's what we thought our problem was we were solving to now here's what we're actually solving and we should organize around this actual problem, right? Gojko (09:02) or here's what we're going to solve additionally. This is the problem we've solved, but hey, there's this problem as well. And then the product can grow by solving multiple problems for people and solving related problems and solving it for different groups of people, for example. And that's the really interesting thing because I think if you have a product that's already doing something well for your users and a subset of them are misusing it in some way, then kind of... Brian (09:04) Yeah. Gojko (09:30) The product might already be optimized for the majority of users, but there might be a new market somewhere else. So there might be a different market where we can help kind of a different group of users and then the product can grow. Brian (09:43) Yeah, I like to focus on the user. There's an exercise that we'll do in one of our product owner classes where we have a fake product that is a smart refrigerator. And one of the exercises we try to get them to brainstorm the different kinds of users that they might have for it. And one of the things that always comes out in that class is as they're going through and trying to describe the types of users, they inevitably hit to this crossroads where they start to decide Well, yes, we're thinking of this as a home product, something for people to use in their homes. But then the idea crosses their mind, well, what about commercial kitchens? What about people who might use this in another setting? And it's always an interesting conversation to say, well, now you've got a strategic choice to make, because you can target both. You can target one. You can say, we're ignoring the other and we're only going in this direction. So to me, I think that's kind of one of the interesting crossroad points is to say, how do I know when it's time to not just say, great, we have this other customer segment that we didn't know about, but actually we should start to pivot towards that customer segment and start to really target them. Gojko (11:03) Yeah, think that's a fundamental question of product development, isn't it? Do you keep true to your vision even if it's not coming out or if something else is there that's kind more important than I think? For me, there's a couple of aspects to that. One is, laser focus is really important to launch a product. You can't launch a product by targeting... the whole market and targeting a niche type, figuring out, you know, user personas, figuring out like really, really, this is the product who we think the product, this is the group who we think the product is for and giving them a hundred percent of what they need is much better than giving 2 % to everybody because then the product is irrelevant. But then to grow the product, we need to kind of grow the user base as well. And I think one of the things that... is interesting to look at and this comes from a book called Lean Analytics. It's one of my kind of favorite product management books is to look at the frequency and urgency of usage. If you have a group that's kind of using your product, a subgroup that's using your product very frequently compared to everybody else, that might be kind of the place where you want to go. The more frequently, the more urgently people reach for your product when they have this problem. the more likely they are going to be a good market for it. with kind of another product that I've launched in 2013, we originally thought it's going to be a product for professional users. And we aimed at the professional users. And then we found that a subcategory that we didn't really expect, were kind of teachers and children in schools. we're using it a lot more frequently than professional users. And then we started simplifying the user interface significantly so that it can be used by children. And it's a very, very popular tool in schools now. We are not fighting against other professional tools. We were kind of really one of the first in the education market there. And it's still a very popular tool in the education market because we figured a subgroup that's using it very frequently. Brian (13:14) Hmm. Yeah, that's awesome. How do you know when, you know, what kind of threshold do you look for to determine that, this is, because, you know, in your book, you're talking about, you know, behaviors that are not normal, right? People using your product in a way that you didn't anticipate. And what kind of threshold do you look for to that says, hey, it's worth investigating this? You know, I've got this percentage or this number of people who are using it in this strange way. At what point do you chase that down? Gojko (13:49) I think it's wrong to look at the percentages there. I think it's wrong to look at the percentages because then you get into the game of trying to justify economically helping 0 .1 % of the users. And that's never going to happen because what I like about this is an idea from Microsoft's Inclusive Design and the work of Kat Holmes who wrote a book called Mismatch on Brian (13:52) Okay. Gojko (14:17) assistive technologies and inclusive design for disabled people. And she talks about how it's never ever ever going to be economically justified to optimize a product to help certain disabilities because there's just not enough of them. And there's a lovely example from Microsoft where, Microsoft Inclusive Design Handbook where they talk about three types of, Brian (14:34) Yeah. Gojko (14:44) disabilities, one are permanent. So you have like people without an arm or something like that. And I'm going to kind of throw some numbers out now, order of magnitude stuff. I have these details in the book and there's kind of the micro -inclusive design handbook. Let's say at the moment, the 16 ,000 people in the U .S. without one arm or with a disabled arm. And then you have these kind of situational disabilities where because of an occupation like you have a bartender who needs to carry something all the time or a worker who does it, one arm is not available and they only have one arm to work on and this temporary like a mother carrying a child or something like that. So the other two groups are order of magnitude 20 -30 million. We're not, by making the software work well with one hand, we're not helping 16 ,000 people, we are helping 50 million people. But you don't know that you're helping 50 million people if you're just thinking about like 16 ,000. I think they have this kind of, one of the key ideas of inclusive design is solve for one, kind of help, design for one, but solve for many. So we are actually helping many, many people there. So think when you figure out that somebody is doing something really strange with your product, you're not helping just that one person. Brian (15:45) Right, right. Hmm. Gojko (16:13) you're helping a whole class of your users by making the software better, removing the obstacles to success. this is where I, you know, going back to the PowerPoint thing I mentioned, once we started removing obstacles for people to build the audios quickly, lots of other people started using the product and people started using the product in a different way. And I think this is a lovely example of what Bruce Torazzini talks about is the complexity paradox because He's a famous UX designer and he talks about how once you give people a product, their behavior changes as a result of having the product. So the UX research we've done before there is a product or there is a feature is not completely relevant, but it's a changed context because he talks about people have a certain amount of time to do a task. And then when they have a tool to complete the task faster, they can take on a more complicated task or they can take on an additional task or do something else. I think removing obstacles to use a success is really important. Not because we're helping 0 .1 % of people who we don't understand, but because we can then improve the product for everybody. And I think that's kind of the magic of lizard optimization in a sense, where if we find these things where somebody's really getting stuck. but if we help them not get stuck, then other people will use the product in a much better way. And I think this is, know, the name lizard optimization comes from this article by Scott Alexander, who talks about the lizard man's constant in research. And the article talks about his experiences with a survey that combined some demographic and psychological data. So they were looking at where you live and what your nationality is and what gender you are and then how you respond to certain psychological questions. he said, like there's about 4 % of the answers they could not account for. And one person wrote American is gender. Several people listed Martian as nationality and things like that. some of these, he says some of these things will be people who didn't really understand the question. they were distracted, they were doing something else, or they understood the question but they filled in the wrong box because, know, the thick thumbs and small screens, or they were kind of malicious and just, you know, wanted to see what happens. when you kind of add these people together, they're not an insignificant group. kind of, he says 4%. And if... we can help these people, at least some of these people, and say reduce churn by 1%. That can compound growth. Reducing churn, keeping people around for longer is an incredible way to kind of unlock growth. going back to what we were talking about, some people might be getting stuck because they don't understand the instructions. Some people might be getting stuck because they're using the product in a way you didn't expect. And some people might just like not have the mental capacity to use it the way you expected them to be used. But if we can help these people along, then normal users can use it much, easier. And you mentioned a smart fridge. I still remember there was this one wonderful bug report we had for my other product, which is a collaboration tool. we had a bug report a while ago. that the software doesn't work when it's loaded on a fridge. And it's like, well, it was never intended to be loaded on a fridge. I have no idea how you loaded it on a fridge. It's a mind mapping diagramming tool. It's intended to be used on large screens. Where does a fridge come in? And then we started talking to this person. This was before the whole kind of COVID and work from home disaster. The user was a busy mother and she was kind of trying to collaborate with her colleagues while making breakfast. breakfast for kids and kind of running around the kitchen she wasn't able to kind of pay attention to the laptop or a phone but her fridge had a screen so she loaded the software on the fridge and was able to kind of pay attention to collaboration there and you know we of course didn't optimize the software to run on fridges that's ridiculous but we realized that some people will be using it without a keyboard and without a mouse and then we kind of restructured the toolbar, we made it so that you can use it on devices that don't have a keyboard and then the whole tablet thing exploded and now you get completely different users that don't have keyboards and things like that. I think that's where I think is looking at percentages is a losing game because then you start saying, but 0 .1 % of people use this. But yeah, I think lizard optimization is about using these signals to improve the products for everybody. Brian (21:30) That's a great example. I love that example because you're absolutely right. You're not trying to necessarily solve that one problem because you don't anticipate there's going to be a lot of people who are going to want to run that software on a fridge. However, the takeaway you had from that of, we can do this for people who don't have a keyboard or a mouse. There's another way that they might operate this that could apply to lots of different devices and lots of different scenarios. Now we're talking about a much bigger audience. Now we're talking about opening this up to larger segments of the population. I love that. I think that's a great example. I know you talk about that there's kind of a process for this. Help us understand. You don't have to give away the whole candy story here from the book, but help us kind of understand in broad, terms what kind of process people follow to try to chase these things down. Gojko (22:26) So there's like a four step process that's crystallized for me. And the book is kind of more as a, like a proposal or a process. It's something that works for me and I'm hoping that other people will try it out like that. So it might not necessarily stay like that in a few years if we talk again. And I've narrowed it down to four steps and kind of the four steps start with letters L, Z, R and D. Lizard. And it's kind of so learn how people are misusing your products, zero in on one area, on one behavior change you want to improve, then remove obstacles to use a success and then double check that what you've done actually created the impact you expected to make. I think kind of when we look at people who follow their own logic or people who follow some lizard logic you don't really understand, by definition they're doing something strange. your idea of helping them might not necessarily be effective or it might not go all the way or it might. So double checking at the end that people are actually now doing what you expect them to do or doing something better is really, really, really important. And then using signals from that to improve the kind of feedback loop is critical. I had this one case where people were getting stuck on a payment format entering tax details and The form was reasonably well explained. There was an example in the forum how to enter your tax ID and people were constantly getting stuck. A small percentage of people was getting stuck on it. However, I don't want to lose a small percentage of people that want to pay me on the payment form. So I thought, well, how about if I remove that field from there? I speed it up for everybody and then I can guide them later into entering the tax details to generate an invoice. I thought that was a brilliant idea. tested it with a few users. Everybody loved it, so I released it. And then a week later, I realized that, yes, I've sold it for the people that were getting confused, but I've ended up confusing a totally different group of people that expects the tax fields there. So the net effect was negative. then I went back to the original form. so there's lots of these things where people don't necessarily behave the way you think they will. Brian (24:38) Hahaha. Gojko (24:48) Ron Kohavi has a wonderful book about that called Trustworthy Online Experiments. And he has data from Slack, from Microsoft, from Booking .com and... The numbers are depressive. on one hand, the numbers range from 10 to 30, 40 % success rate for people's ideas. And if leading companies like that do things that don't pan out two thirds of the time, then we have to be honest building our products and say, well, maybe this idea is going to work out, maybe not. Brian (25:03) Hahaha. Wow. Gojko (25:30) the more experimental the population is, the more risky that is. think monitoring and capturing weird user behaviors, capturing errors helps you understand that people are getting stuck. as you said, you don't want to follow everybody. There's going to be a lot of noise there. We need to extract signals from the noise. That's what the second step is about, focusing on one specific thing we want to improve. Then, try to remove obstacles and then double -checking that we've actually removed them. That's the four steps. And there's like a shorter version of all the four steps. It's easier to remember. It's listen alert, zooming, rescue them, and then double check at the end. that's again, LZRD. Brian (26:13) That's awesome. Yeah, I love the process and I love the kind of steps there. Are there tools that you recommend for this that are easier to try to determine these things or chase them down or are there tools that you find are more helpful? Gojko (26:32) So there's lots of tools today for things like A -B testing and looking at experiments and things that are very helpful to do this scale. And it's kind of especially useful for the last step. In terms of kind of focusing and things like that, the five stages of growth from the linear analytics are a good tool. Impact mapping is a good tool. Kind of any focusing product management technique that says, well, these are the business goals we're working on now, or these are the kind of user goals we're working on now. out of, know, 50 lizards we found last week, these three lizards seem to be kind of in that area. And for the first step, spotting when people are getting stuck, there's a bunch of tools that are interesting, like session recorders for web products. There's one from Microsoft called Clarity that's free. There's another called Full Story that's quite expensive. There's a couple of open source one, one is packaged within Matomo analytics application. There's a bunch of these other things. Any kind of observability or monitoring tool is also very useful for this because we can spot when people are getting stuck. One of the things I found particularly helpful is logging all user errors. When a user does something to cause an error condition in a product, the product of course tells them like, know, an error happened. But then... logging it and analyzing that information in the back is really critical. for something like that, people sometimes use web analytics tools or any kind of product analytics. I think what's going to be interesting in the next couple of years, and I think if people start doing this more, is we'll see. more like these technical exception analytics tracking tools mixed with this because most of the product analytics are showing people what they expect to see, not what they don't expect to see. And I'll just give you an example of this way. was really helpful. So I've mentioned the screen where people can upload the Word documents. Occasionally people would select weird file types. So they'll select images, they'll select, I don't know, what else. Brian (28:31) Yeah. Gojko (28:49) Sometimes I guess that's a result of, know, a fat finger press or somebody not selecting the right thing. I have a not insignificant percentage of users every day that try to upload Android package files into a text -to -speech reader. Android package files and application files, I don't know what the right way is to read out an Android application. My best guess is people are doing that. as a, you know, these things where you drop a USB in front of an office and somebody kind of mistakenly plugs it in. So maybe they're hoping that I'll know the Android application on my phone just because they've uploaded it. I don't know, but a small percentage of users was trying to upload files that had SRT and VTT extensions, which are subtitle files. And they were not supported, but Brian (29:31) Yeah. Gojko (29:45) I kept getting information that people are uploading those types of files. And then I said, well, this is interesting because it's a text to speech system. People are uploading subtitle files, there's text in, so why don't I just ignore the timestamps and read the text? I can do that. And I started supporting that. And then some people started complaining that, well, the voice is reading it slower than the subtitles. I said, well, yes, because... Brian (30:11) Ha Gojko (30:12) You know, you're uploading subtitles that were read by an actor in a movie. This is a voice that's reading it at their speed. And then we started talking and it turns out that these people were doing it for corporate educational videos where they have a video in English, they need it in French, German, Spanish and all the else, but they don't want to kind of re -edit the video. They just want an alternate audio track. Okay, I mean, I have the timestamps, we can speed up or slow down the audio, it's not a big deal. And we've done that and this was one of the most profitable features ever. Like a very small percentage of the users need it, but those that need it produce hundreds of thousands of audio files because they translate the corporate training videos. And now, you know, we're getting into that numbers game. If I said, you know, there's like 0 .1 % of people are uploading subtitle files. Brian (30:58) Yeah. Gojko (31:07) then it doesn't matter. if we start thinking about, this is potentially interesting use case, it creates growth on its own because then people find you. And I think my product was the first that was actually doing synchronous subtitles. Competitors are doing it now as well. But it opened the massive, massive market for us. And people, you know, I got there by monitoring user errors, by, you know, the fact that somebody uploaded a file that had an unsupported extension. That was our insight. Brian (31:38) Wow, that's really cool. That's a great story. This is fascinating stuff. And it makes me want to dive deeper into the book and read through it again. But I really appreciate you coming on and sharing this with us, Goiko. This is good stuff. Again, the book is called, Lizard Optimization, Unlock Product Growth by Engaging Long Tail Users. And if I'm right, we talked about this a little bit before. We're going to offer a discount to to the listeners, Gojko (32:07) Yes, we will give you a listen as a 50 % discount on the ebook. the ebook is available from Lean Pub. If you get it from the discount URL that I'll give you, then you'll get a 50 % discount immediately. Brian (32:24) Awesome. So we'll put that in our show notes. If you're interested in that, you can find the show notes. That's a great deal, 50 % off the book and it's good stuff. well, I just, I can't thank you enough. Thanks for making time and coming on and talking this through your book. Gojko (32:40) Thank you, it was lovely to chat to you.

Join Brian and Dr. Tess Thompson as they delve into the complexities of scaling Agile, highlighting the challenges of aligning leadership priorities, fostering transparency, and applying system-level thinking for successful organizational transformations. Overview In this insightful episode, Dr. Tess Thompson tackles the pressing challenges organizations face when scaling Agile, with a focus on the critical role of leadership alignment. Drawing from her extensive experience, she explains how misaligned priorities at the leadership level can stall progress and waste resources. Dr. Thompson emphasizes the importance of system-level thinking, transparency, and communication between teams and leaders to resolve misalignments and ensure success. She also shares her holistic approach, blending practices from various Agile frameworks to meet the specific needs of different organizations. References and resources mentioned in the show: Dr. Tess Thompson Scrum Inc. Scrum.org #68: The Pros and Cons and Real World Applications of SAFe with Mike Hall #94: Connecting Teams and Leadership with Anthony Coppedge Three Questions to Determine If an Organization Is Agile by Mike Cohn Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Dr. Tess Thompson is a visionary leader in Agile transformations, with over three decades of experience reshaping industries from energy to biotech across the globe. As a professor at St. Mary's University, her dedication to fostering Agile leaders has empowered countless individuals to embrace adaptability and forge their own path to success. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have a very special guest with me. I have Dr. Tess Thompson with me. Welcome in Dr. Thompson. Tess Thompson (00:13) Hi, I'm glad to be here. Brian (00:16) I'm so happy to have Dr. Thompson with us. And just for people who aren't familiar, let me make sure that I introduce her and give you the background a little bit. First of all, she's been in this business for almost 40 years now. She's been doing stuff in IT since the 80s. She is a principal consultant and RST fellow with Scrum Inc. Scrum .inc, I should say. She is a PST as well with scrum .org. So two different organizations from two different founders of Scrum. She has been a professor at St. Mary's University. So has that kind of educational background as well. And I was asking her beforehand if there's anything else I needed to say. And she said, well, make sure you say I've got nine grandchildren. That's kind of my claim to fame. I love that. So. Nine grandchildren, very happy for that. So that's who we're talking with. And we wanted to have Dr. Thompson because there's a lot of experience here that she brings to the table in the realm of scaling, obviously being connected so closely with those two organizations. So with all that out of the way, let's talk about scaling a little bit. And Dr. Thompson, what I want to start with is just Tess Thompson (01:27) I'm Brian (01:40) When you work with organizations today that have scaling issues, what are organizations really struggling with? What's kind of the main issues that you see organizations have with scaling today? Tess Thompson (01:55) I would say there's a lot of things, but I would say still the biggest problem is getting everybody to align on what the priority is. So at some point, like you get alignment with maybe people that are doing Scrum and they're the people that are above them, but then the people above them are out of alignment. like, for example, one of the clients I have right now brought some consultants in to work on a project. Brian (01:59) Yeah, right. Tess Thompson (02:24) And those consultants have been stuck now for four weeks. And where the alignment problem is, is actually up at the C -suite with this client. Because one of them says, nope, we were supposed to help. That was a priority in 2023. And the other one's like, no, this is a priority in 2024. And they're not helping each other. So in the meantime, this project is stuck for four weeks. And we're spending money on people that are sitting there doing nothing. Brian (02:50) So just when you say alignment, give us kind of a flavor. when leaders are misaligned, what kind of things are they, are there different ideas about priority or different ideas about why they're doing this? What are they misaligned on? Okay. Tess Thompson (03:09) Both, both, I would say both. The, you know, especially as the companies get bigger and bigger, we have a CEO who's got some priorities, but then all the C -suite under them have their own priorities and they're not always, and then they break down to the next level and these priorities start to get out of alignment because people start bringing in their own objectives and their own priorities and they often don't match what somebody else is doing. So part of it is the different incentives and just the organizations being so big, they have to get even these priorities aligned at different levels. Brian (03:49) So this is kind of an amazing thing, I think, for people to latch onto here, because I hear a lot of people in just regular base level classes talk about how there's a disconnect between them and the leadership on how they're going to do Scrum and how this fits into the overall structure of the organization. just understand, Dr. Thompson here is talking about organizations that The leadership has stated, at least in some way, or form, we're in alignment with this. We want to do this. We want to have Scrum throughout our organization. But even in those situations, we're seeing these misalignments of just priorities and what are the drivers really for what they're trying to do. So I find that fascinating that talking to so many people who just wish that their leadership could get on board. with what it is they're trying to do, that even in those organizations where they do, quote unquote, get on board, there's still these kind of fundamental disconnects. Tess Thompson (04:51) Yep, absolutely. In fact, I do very little work anymore on scrum specific. is many organizations, I mean, almost every organization I go into anymore has some shape or form of scrum going on or people with experience with it. Some people, you know, they're not, it's something that they're trying to do anyway, something agile. And they're... They're getting things done quicker. They're delivering with higher quality. They have better communication at that level. But then as you go up the chain, things start to break down and then teams are stuck. So organizations can only get product out the door with high quality as quick as possible. The more the organ... We have to really think the system. So most of the work that I do today is around the system, which is scaling. It's system agility. Otherwise you start having, you just run into optimization in areas, that local optimization problem. Brian (05:58) Yeah, yeah, not seeing the whole, right? Tess Thompson (06:02) Right, absolutely. So I think that over the years that Agile has been around, we're seeing more and more of it, but then it's, like I said, almost all my work now is system level and not down at the team level. So often I'm not even using Scrum language when I'm talking. It is about alignment. It is about prioritization. So yes, at a Scrum level, your product owner is putting the order of the product backlog, and then the team can pull out off that backlog. based on value from all the different stakeholders that the product owner is working with. But in a big organization, those stakeholders can be a manager, can be a director, it can be another department, it can be, it's from all over the place. And then at some point, how does that work coming into the product owner roll up to the priority of the department or a higher level? And then how does that roll up to the higher level? And that's where we start running into messes. Brian (06:58) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. mean, it's like you said, with all these various priorities, with all these various drivers, I've always talked to product owners and say, it's a tough job. You're balancing the needs and desires of all these people into one product, and you're having to take them all into account. So yeah, it's not easy. It's not an easy job. Tess Thompson (07:08) You. Brian (07:27) Well, so I'm curious about, you say you don't really even use the Scrum language as much when you're talking to the leaders, because they're not really interested in that, right? They're not really interested in, we doing this exactly according to what the Scrum guide says? They're interested in the outcome, right? The results that you're getting from this. Yeah, so I'm kind of curious, especially since you're a fellow with Scrum Inc. And I know that the... Tess Thompson (07:37) No. Absolutely. Brian (07:55) a Scrum at Scale kind of strategy is very specific about how these things are implemented. There's practices and all sorts of stuff that Scrum at Scale kind of implements. Would you categorize yourself as sort of a Scrum at Scale implementation consultant? Or is it more of just, I take more of a holistic approach to the scaling. Tess Thompson (08:19) Holistic, absolutely. So actually, I'm certified in Nexus, Scrummit Scale, Less, and Safe. I mean, I have all of them. So I always think you need to bring the best tool to the job. One of the things I like about Scrummit Scale and Nexus is they're just so simple. Like if, hey, if these two teams are not, if we need to coordinate, let's get these product owners together and work together to figure out what is really the order. So whether we call it a meta scrum or we call it something else, I don't think that language matters as much as seeing the need and then bringing in a tool to help meet that need. If these teams are interdependent and they need to be chatting to help get rid of those interdependencies, well, let's spin up a scrum of scrums here. Brian (08:58) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've had someone on before that we've talked through kind of the safe model a little bit and talked about how, you know, there's so much additional overhead, there's so much additional roles and events and all these other things that get added from the safe perspective, that it can be very, very overwhelming for a lot of organizations to look at that and say, well, gosh, how are we ever going to, I mean, we're barely hanging on with it, trying to understand what Scrum is. And now we're going to layer in all these other things and, Tess Thompson (09:22) Thanks. Okay. Brian (09:38) It just seems like a recipe for disaster to try to understand all these things. So I guess one of the things that I had in that previous conversation was this dialogue about how you match the problem to the practice. You find the problem that is going on in the organization and you find the right practice that solves that, but not necessarily implementing the whole smorgasbord of practices because you may be trying to solve problems you don't have. Do you see that as kind of your approach when you work with organizations or how do you match the practices to what's actually going on on the ground? Tess Thompson (10:18) Yeah, I would say, you know, it's kind of similar to what happened with, so I'm also a PMP. So when we When we put together the PIMBOK over the years, it became this, know, it was supposed to be, these are best practices that you can have. And over time, it became very, big, thick book and people didn't understand they were only supposed to implement whatever tool from that book really helped solve the problems they were having. And started implementing the whole thing. And I think that's what happens too with like, Brian (10:50) Ha ha. Tess Thompson (10:53) safe or any of these agile practices, even though, know, Ken and Jeff went completely the opposite of PMI and said, hey, we're just going to roll out. This is the absolute minimum that you need for running, running a team or a project or product. And, but it's not enough. So you need to add in some more things to it. You got to bring in some additional tools to help depending on the organization, such as road mapping. I really believe that's one of the. I spend a lot of time helping organizations and product owners think about, we do need to plan ahead. And that is one of the pieces I do like about SAFE is that in their PI planning, have the getting some product owners and teams together to plan together to look out further, I think is pretty essential in most organizations. Now, do we need to do it on a regular cadence of every eight weeks? And do we need to have 200 teams together? I think Brian (11:23) Yeah. Tess Thompson (11:49) Sometimes it's, think organizations end up implementing all of SAFE, kind of like in the pin box, if you will, and it's way more than they need. So I think it's taking the elements of all of these and then using them to meet the need of the organization. I mean, if you're a 30 person organization, do you need a bunch of release trains and engineers and stuff? No. Brian (11:59) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's very interesting to me with your background that you have all of these different scaling frameworks in mind. How much of what you do do you feel is aligned to a specific framework and how much of it is just piecemeal across the different frameworks? Tess Thompson (12:34) I would say I'm most aligned to, well, Scrum at Scale, never solely. It's always piecemeal. It is a piecemeal thing because I really do believe that teams do get to need to plan out in almost every company I go into. Teams do need to plan out more than one sprint. Brian (12:44) Hmm. Tess Thompson (12:54) Okay, we need to plan out and we're never delivering anything alone with one team. It seems like we're always need multiple teams. So we need that coordination and we need some of the scaling practices for sure. I really use a variation of safe of PI planning, but then I layer in, so we put together our plan for let's say the month, maybe we have a product goal for the month. And then I use the version of PI planning to get the teams together to plan out for sprints. weekly sprints to get to that product goal and try to get rid of the dependencies and problems that we see between the teams. And then we let it run. But then I pull in from Scrum at Scale, definitely the Metascrum. Like every sprint, let's still get the product owners together and revise our sprint plans because we've learned a lot in the last sprint or we learned a lot today. So we're not just going to let it ride for a month, for example, we're going to still get together at a regular cadence, like once per sprint. and realign our backlogs based on what we've just really happened. So it's using both, yeah. Brian (13:55) I love that. Yeah, taking the best of what these different practices offer, Tess Thompson (14:04) Absolutely. Brian (14:06) I love that. Well, one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about as well is sort of in working with scaling practices, I'm sure you already talked a little bit about how leadership has different ideas than the team level does. And the team level is kind of struggling with a certain layer of complexity. The leaders are struggling with another. Tess Thompson (14:22) Okay. Brian (14:33) I know there often appears to be sort of a disconnect between these two groups. I've talked to people who feel like they're speaking a different language. It's sort of like the leaders are, especially when teams, the team level will look and see, there's people in leadership who just, they want us to do Scrum, but then they want a lot of things in the same way that they always have, which is really hard for us to translate and put back into that old language. I'm just kind of curious your thought about that. Do you see leaders, the leadership layer as sort of speaking a different language than the team layer and how do you help them understand each other? Tess Thompson (15:13) Yeah, I mean, my most successful implementations is definitely when the leaders are on board. Leaders are really important to agility. We need their help and we need their support. What I always find super interesting is when I go into an engagement, I usually run an assessment, an agility assessment. And what I'm measuring is kind of where the organization is on culture, delivery, how well they're continuously improving or optimizing the system, how well they prioritize and how customer centric they are. Because I really believe agility is about those... It's those five dimensions, if you will, that you need to really focus on. And so I run this assessment and I always have them self -assess through a survey, interviews, and then observations. So often I see my assessments different than maybe how they self -assess and I'll compare both of them. But the leadership assesses so different than the teams do. And so at the end of the assessment, it's just interesting how different they are. Brian (16:13) Yeah. Tess Thompson (16:21) The teams are thinking they're delivering so well because they're getting all kinds of stuff done and leadership's like they're delivering, they're not delivering. And it's, like, how do we get so out of aligned it all the time at companies? Yeah. Brian (16:35) Yeah, yeah, we will do an assessment to it mountain goat. And one of the things that like became clear to me very early in doing that is that self perception versus, you know, perception of others is very different. And, you know, it was amazing to me, just like you said, to see things like the leadership might think that you have one opinion of something and the teams might have another or, you know, the other thing that I saw was was You know, like the Scrum Masters might think, yeah, our practices are great or they're going really well. And then you ask the developers and developers would say, no, it's horrible. We don't like the way this is working. so, you know, it kind of became apparent to me that you have to factor that human personal perception, right? We tend to be maybe individually more critical on ourselves, but Tess Thompson (17:18) Okay. Brian (17:34) you know, as a group, tend to give ourselves a little more grace in how we're performing, whereas others, when they look in from the outside, will kind of be more honest about it and say, it's not so great in this situation. Tess Thompson (17:49) But what I often find is they are delivering. The thing is they're delivering a bunch of things that the leadership doesn't even know about. So the leadership will have their priority list in their head of projects or things they want the teams to be delivering. But the team is getting hit with all kinds of other stuff that the leadership doesn't know about. So they are working hard and they're delivering. So in their head, they're doing it. It's just this. Brian (17:56) Yeah. Tess Thompson (18:12) the leader maybe not attending to a sprint review and really understanding what the teams got on their plate. Brian (18:17) Yeah, and that's kind of that transparency moment, right? mean, if they think they're not doing anything, they may be, they're just not seeing what they're doing and what they're actually spending their time on. And it's not that they aren't really working hard. As you said, they are working hard. It's just the work they're being asked to do is not really in align with what the leadership thinks the priorities should be. Tess Thompson (18:22) Yes. Absolutely, that's it. Yep. And then should the people be working on the stuff that they're working on? You know, is it the right thing? And often it may not be. Brian (19:00) Yeah. Yeah, I know I've had several instances where I've talked to people when I've been in working with teams where they will, the team level will say, you know, we have all the stuff that we're having to do in addition to the new work. And, you know, we know that that's just kind of a constraint we're under. The organization has asked us to do this as well. And, you know, my comment is always, well, Are you being really transparent about that when you get to something like a sprint review? Are you showing them where you're spending your time? Are you showing them kind of how much of this extra other work you're doing? And I've had situations where we've been in sprint reviews and we've shown them, for instance, like how much support time that they've had to spend. when the lead, right. And the leaders see that and think, my gosh, I didn't know they're spending 60 % of their time doing that kind of work. That's not good. We want them to do, Tess Thompson (19:32) right. Yep, eye -opening. Brian (20:00) new work. So I've had leaders who have actually spun up support teams when they've been confronted with that just because they didn't know what was going on. Tess Thompson (20:09) Yeah, absolutely. That is one of the things I love about sprint reviews is that transparency. And I have seen teams also go into sprint reviews thinking that they just want to show like some progress they made on an increment for a project and not talk about the support work that they did or some of the other buckets of work that come in. And I'm like, you. Part of transparency is seeing, hey, and it doesn't have to be that you show all the support tickets or anything like that. It's talk about something like 50 % of our time, of our capacity was spent on support tickets. Just throwing that in there to make sure leaders are aware. Brian (20:45) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I want to go back to something you said earlier too, because you were talking about when we first started about how one of the biggest issues is alignment on priorities. And I want to just dig under the surface in that a little bit, because when we talk about that alignment of priorities, are we talking about more of the product area? Are we talking more about just a general overall? What's our company's priority? What kind of priorities are they misaligned on? Tess Thompson (21:08) All, I would say all, all priorities are misaligned. So it's been an interesting move to, for me, to Scrum Inc. Because Scrum Inc's clientele is very much Brian (21:21) Right. Tess Thompson (21:35) scrum mostly outside of IT. So it's been really fun for me because my career and background was all in IT. So I've been learning so much about all these other different domains out there. And we're doing full transformations of an entire company is doing a version of scrum, right? Or scrum at scale so that they're aligned on priorities. And anyway, so it's very... It's all, all the work tends to be a little out of alignment. And going back to the support, I really like to work companies to help them really understand that almost all support, whether it is support in a field that's doing some kind of drilling or it's or it's IT support or it's HR support, you know, taking phone calls from the employees that it tends to all be tech debt. All support is really some form of tech debt. And so getting that message out there, how much time we're spending on and how much money we're spending on support helps companies, leaders to agree to fund some of these. Brian (22:44) Yeah. Tess Thompson (22:57) projects around reducing tech debt. Brian (22:59) Yeah. Yeah. And there's always the having to overcome the kind of more traditional viewpoint of projects and these things based around projects and scope schedule, that sort of thing. How do you help leaders understand kind of this is a new way of doing things and not that we can't talk about schedules, but Tess Thompson (23:07)  Okay. Brian (23:29) that we're kind of shifting our priorities a little bit, or we're trying to focus on what matters more than arbitrary dates. How do you have those conversations? How do leaders understand that? Tess Thompson (23:38) In some organizations it's easier than others. It depends how much the leader above those leaders is on board, to tell you the truth. So I feel like fundamentally they understand. And if we bring up two different priorities and it's two vice presidents, for example, and they're getting bonuses or something based on their performance in their area, we can see Brian (23:50) Yeah. Tess Thompson (24:08) They fundamentally will understand in a meeting together, they'll understand and then we'll leave and they'll still kind of do their own thing. But if I could get even though like the person, the CEO also, a person above them be like, nope, this is important. And for that person to see the two competing priorities and where there's a problem, I mean, it's really about if there's a problem, right? And then they'll agree and kind of one will give up a little bit on. Brian (24:30) Yeah. Tess Thompson (24:37) on their ambition towards getting their thing done, understanding that it's good for all of us, the whole company, we all, to get to work on maybe the other priority first. Brian (24:50) So a lot of negotiation involved, right? A lot of negotiation skills. Tess Thompson (24:54) Absolutely, and getting people in the same room so that they can have the conversation together. You know, it's not me talking to one and then going and talking to the other. I mean, there is some of that too, but then we have to get together here and decide. And yes, unfortunately, yeah, and yes, we will probably be working on these at the same time. However, if there comes into, you know, with an or, Brian (25:10) Yeah, it's amazing how much easier that is, right? Tess Thompson (25:22) With a large organization, when you've got hundreds of thousands of people, of course we're working on a ton of things at the same time. But when there is a conflict, like we need this skill set here and this, then we have to know which one is more important. Brian (25:37) Yeah. Yeah, and someone has to make that call, right? Someone has to be given that authority at some point. Well, this is fascinating stuff. I'm really interested in hearing your perspective of working with these organizations in today's world. So last little question here. From what you just see, especially most recently, Tess Thompson (25:44) Yep. Brian (26:07) from what you've seen in the organizations you've worked with. If you could just blanket, have one thing fixed before they start working with you, or one thing that they were in alignment with that would really give them a boost in their scaling before they start working with you, what would that be? What would be the thing that you think is most often missing in organizations before you work with them? Tess Thompson (26:33) Getting their goals, their strategy and starting to build out their backlog. based on those priorities. In fact, I usually do ask that. Start thinking about what are really your goals? What's your strategy to get there? And what kind of things are you doing to get there? What products are you creating? What services are you What projects you're creating for those products? Start thinking about that and start being a list together. And then when I get there, I'll help organize the list if you don't have it. But it's just starting to think about that ahead of time. Because what I see is leaders or people have multiple lists. They have a list over here of their projects. They have a list over here of stuff they're doing. They have all their emails that are coming in, their chats that are coming in, the phone that's coming in. And it's like, can we get it all kind of in one place so we can really look at it to make better decisions on really where we should be spending our time and our money? Brian (27:14) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. A friend of mine, David Hawks, used to say that organizations are swimming in a sea of opportunity. There's all these different things we could do and really trying to limit that scope and say, yeah, we could do all these things, but what makes the most sense for us to do? What's the most valuable thing for us to do? Tess Thompson (27:58) Yep, absolutely. And getting in touch with and constant feedback with your customer helps you figure that out. So many companies don't even, the people are like, have no, I always love when I get a group and I said, hey, let's name our customers. And they're sort of out of the line on who their customer is. Brian (28:19) Right, and if you don't know who it is you're trying to serve, how do you serve them? Yeah. Tess Thompson (28:25) Yeah, yeah. That's usually one of the first things I ask is, hey, who's your customer? Is it the shareholder? Is it this? Is it that? Let's agree. Yes, you will have multiple customers. Let's get it together and understand who are our customers. Let's all agree on that. Maybe even a priority on some of those customers to some degree. Brian (28:30) You Right, love that. Right. Yeah, yeah, this has been great. Well, I really appreciate you taking time out, Dr. Thompson, for coming on and helping us and to see things from your perspective. It's so great to talk to people that are, know, not just, you know, this isn't just theory or book learning. You're actually out there, you know, doing these in these large scale organizations and, you know, hearing from you what those real world problems are that you're seeing on a day to day basis. Tess Thompson (29:18) And I'm having amazing, amazing results. tell you, I'm, that's why I only had three hours of sleep last night and I'm still. Brian (29:27) Ha ha. Tess Thompson (29:28) woke up full of joy to be here with you today is I love what I do because I'm constantly getting phone calls after the factor during it and it's like, wow, this stuff really works. I'm like, yeah, it does. It really does. Brian (29:41) Amazing when that happens. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on and I just appreciate you sharing your wisdom with us. Tess Thompson (29:53) Anytime. Thank you for having me.

Is Agile really dead, or are we just doing it wrong? Tune in as Brian and Scott dive deep into the controversies and misconceptions surrounding Agile practices and what it really takes to make Agile work in today’s organizations. Overview In this episode, Brian and Agile Mentors Podcast regular, Scott Dunn, tackle the provocative question: "Is Agile Dead?" sparked by recent claims of Agile's high failure rates. They discuss the validity of these claims, the common pitfalls of bad Agile implementations, and the importance of continuous improvement and experimentation in Agile practices. The conversation explores the shortcomings of current training approaches, the crucial role of effective coaching and leadership support, and how to overcome the widespread misconceptions about Agile. Brian and Scott emphasize the need to focus on outcomes and ongoing learning rather than getting bogged down by methodology debates and rigid terminologies. References and resources mentioned in the show: Scott Dunn #93: The Rise of Human Skills and Agile Acumen with Evan Leybourn Are Agile and Scrum Dead? By Mike Cohn Join the Agile Mentors Community Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. Welcome back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today, friend of the show, regular, you know him, you love him, Mr. Scott Dunn is with us. Welcome back, Scott. Scott (00:13) That's my new favorite intro ever. So thank you, Brian. Always glad to be and then glad to talk shop. So I appreciate you making me some space so that I get to work with you again. Brian (00:16) Ha ha ha. Yeah, we need like walkout music for you. know, like when the pitcher comes out to the mound, the relief pitcher or the wrestler comes out, you know, or whatever, they play the walkout music. We need walkout music. We wanted to have Scott back because there's a hot topic and this is your hot take alert because this show I'm sure is gonna be full of personal hot takes here on the subject. Scott (00:30) Yeah yeah, there you go. Brian (00:50) And that is, is Agile dead? There has been a lot of talk recently about this in the past few months. There's been a lot of blog posts written, a lot of armchair quarterbacks chiming in and trying to make sense of this. So before we dive in, Scott, I want to give a little bit of background to our listeners in case you're not aware of something that happened, where this came from, right? Because I think that there was In one sense, there's always an undercurrent. There's always people out there who are ready to say Agile's dead, right? And so they're waiting to pounce on anything that would back them up. And there was someone who was very happy to oblige about that. There was a company called Engprax, E -N -G -P -R -A -X. I couldn't find much out about them except they're a consulting company. And they put out an article that was announcing research they had done that said that 260 % higher failure rates for Agile software projects. That's what their study revealed. Yeah, 268%. So let's just start there, right? But the article is very thinly veiled in support. of another competing process, believe it or not, called Impact Engineering that is authored with a book that's just out, believe it or not, by a gentleman named Junade Ali. Now I have no idea, I have never crossed paths with this gentleman. I don't know his philosophy or his, much more about him. I did look him up on LinkedIn. He's been in the business for about 11 years. If I trace back to his first thing, it's about 11 years ago. He currently lists himself as the chief executive officer of a stealth startup. Well, I think I can remove the mask of what that stealth startup is because it is Ingeprax. So he is the head of that company. I found another article that did the research in support of his book. Scott (03:03) Hahaha Brian (03:12) announcing his new process that is a competitor, of course, to Agile. Now, there's been a lot of back and forth. He's tried to defend this and say, you know, the research is solid, but here's the thing I always say, without data, it didn't happen. If you're not showing me the actual methodology, if you're not showing me the scientific research paper behind it that says, here's the methodology of the research, here's how we conducted it, here's the... There are some details that are in the article, one of which is that the research was done over a period of about five days. So it was research over about five days. was interviewing a set of, I'm trying to scroll through and find the numbers. I think it was like 250 or so engineers from the UK and 350 from the US. It's something around those numbers. But it was interviews with engineers over a period of about five days. Scott (03:50) Wow. Brian (04:11) And so the numbers are based on these engineers' recall of what their idea of success was in projects, whether it was an Agile project or not an Agile project, by their definition of whether it was an Agile project or not. He doesn't really describe in the article what success is. So saying that it's 268 % failure, what is a failure? It doesn't really state that plainly. So again, where's the data, right? I'm not going to go on and on about the research and the fact, but I just want to give the background before we dive into it because that article is what now you will see quite a few blog posts and things crossing your desk on LinkedIn that say, wow, look, this new study says 268 % failure rate for agile projects. Well, anytime you see something like that, check the source. You have to check the source. I try to do this in any conference talk I do. I put the links to the sources. And I try to only list data that comes from scientific studies, where you can find the actual research paper and dive into it and get into the nitty gritty of it if you really want to. Otherwise, as I said, it didn't happen. He says in the article, hey, we had PhD people that looked over our work, unnamed PhD people. So you can't even question whether that person was someone legitimate who did it. Just trust him that they were legitimate. So I set that up because I don't mean to take so much time here at start of the episode, but I just wanted to set the foundation. If you weren't aware of that kind of thing or where that came from, you may not even been aware of the background of where that study came from. Scott (05:46) You Brian (06:04) And the fact that the person who kind of sponsored it is got an ulterior motive, right? They're trying to push their own methodology and they're publishing research that they collected, they are publishing, that just so happens to support their foregone conclusion that Agile's bad and their methodology is better. So, but Scott. Scott (06:31) I'm just trying. Brian (06:32) So let's get into the topic because what I really want to get into is, I'm sure you've seen people post things like this and there's been sort of this wave of things in the past year or so of people who are so quick and anxious to say Agile is dead. So what's your general impression there? What have you seen? What have you experienced and how do you respond if someone in class says, hey, is Agile dead? Scott (06:43) Mm Mm I great, great question. So for those listening, I want to just want to affirm that probably a lot of you had experiences like, well, certainly wasn't going great or we're not seeing what we thought and all those things. So part of this, Brian, is I think the ethos of why those things take off like that is I do think there's a general feeling of is this really working for us or not? That's that's fair. So I'm not going to pretend like, it's always goes great. It's, you know, be Pollyanna about that. I remember actually this year. of a CEO, a company saying, Agile absolutely does not work. We're going to go all the way back to just full waterfall. Right. That to me is kind of that harbinger of like, wow, it's built up enough for someone to say that. So a couple of thoughts I have, and I'm going to be pragmatic like you for my friends that are hearing this or maybe thinking this or people at your company are pushing back a bit, is I'm to go back and say, well, okay, let's just say that Agile is dead. So what are you going to do? Are you really going to go back to waterfall? Well, we already know that story. whole reason, for those listening, consider this, whole reason Agile took off was the option A wasn't working and very clearly wasn't working for complex projects like software. Now for this person to come and recommend XYZ, of course, not surprising for all the listeners out there. Obviously, there's a marketplace, there's business. I get it that people are going to pitch and recommend what they do my classic one in our space Brian would be because obviously you I Mike within Mountain Goat are teaching the CSM CSPO and I'll see like 350 page books of get ready for the CSM exam like right the scrum guide itself is I mean how many pages so come on Brian (08:38) You Scott (08:47) And they'll even be like, you know, misrepresentation. So clearly people are doing things in their own self interest. get that. as you as people out there, hear information, I love what you're saying is to just like look into it and really be mindful of what's their angle for some of that. But back to your question, is Agile dead? I would argue that Agile partly done or halfway is dead in the sense that that doesn't work or what I would kind of call Agile theater. Agile hand waving, spread the agile pace. So I've been doing this 18 years, I think, since becoming a Scrum Master. And I was on project delivery before that and managing IT people. So I've seen all the things that weren't working well as a developer, et cetera. And I saw the results of what I got. And I've seen plenty of stories beyond that. But what I see more and more is people who are further away from the beginnings and what they're kind of doing is implementing what's comfortable. And I would agree that doesn't work. in that sense, that Agile is dead. In a follow on the idea of and really kind of putting together realizing is for those out there that your company is the one implementing Agile, who usually gets that? Well, it's probably going to be the PMO. And I'm going to poke a little bit here, certainly for my PMO friends, but as a former PMP working within the PMO, what's the PMO responsible for? So if I go to your typical company, say, hey, we're going to go Agile. That's under the purview of who it's a, it's a, there's going to be a group that's responsible for watching over execution delivery. Who is that? It's a PMO. Think about this. The PMO is not responsible for like learning continuous improvement innovation. They're responsible primarily for, for status reporting, managing to a given date, managing resources, escalating issues, but not necessarily for improving. So they bring in Agile sense of, what do we need to do without maybe understanding it fully and really. How do we just manage this process and not, hey, we're starting off from point A, but we're going to learn and get better as we go across. It's going to stop where they feel like, I think we have a new process that implemented. Does it get the results? You know, I don't know and I don't understand how it works to fix that. So they may not be getting results is what I commonly see. I'm seeing a slew. I can tell you the last several companies just in these last few months we've worked with. We've got to fix our process is not working. Are you agile? Yes. But you look at it and they'd miss a lot of fundamentals. And so now we're kind of resetting a lot of people that are struggling with the same issues everyone's talking about. Visibility, predictability, can we deliver this by the date we gave senior management? And they're not by and large. For those who say agile is dead, one of the other options, people have put together agile manifesto had lots of ideas, lots of other approaches besides scrum, but even if just take scrum. Look, scrum is based on lean. Is lean dead? And scrum is an empirical process. Is empiricism dead? Does that not work? So I kind of come back like, what are your options? Just think about the results you're getting. Whose fault is that? And what are we even basing what we're looking at? The roots of it are all very solid. So yeah, I'm going to push back quite a bit on that, what I've seen. And maybe see some of those same. Results or lack of results for organizations Brian because I know that it doesn't always go great out there and in the marketplace is coming. Try to roll this out. Brian (12:07) Yeah, yeah, there's a, so I have a couple thoughts here. One is just in general, I think you're absolutely right that there's, know, well, just listeners, ask yourself, what percentage of Agile practices out there do you think are doing Agile the right way? Right? And I don't mean like a hundred percent. I just mean they are, they're all in on it. They're trying to do it the right way. I don't know what number you have in your head, I would say, don't know, Scott, what would you say? Scott (12:43) They're doing it right? Brian (12:45) Yeah, they're not perfect, right? But they're committed to doing it right. They're committed to doing it according to what the Agile Manifesto says, that sort of stuff. Scott (12:55) Fairly Fairly smart, right? I'm guessing, my first number that came to mind, you asked, I'd say 10%. That's my, maybe less than that. Brian (13:02) Okay. Yeah, I would bet it's a small thing, right? Now that right there, I think is something that we can talk about. Why is it that small? Right? Why is it that small? And I think that there's a discussion that's a legitimate discussion to be had about, well, maybe the structure that was put in place to spread this and train people up and get them, you know, situated to do this well. has failed. And if that's the case, that's the problem. It's not really that the methodology is bad. It's that we didn't do a good job of explaining it or training people for it. that's a separate discussion. But I think that there's a lot of bad agile out there. And I'll just put it to you this way. If you like to hike or camp or anything like that. If you are an aficionado of that stuff, right? If you occasionally go hiking or camping, I'm fairly certain that you've had some hikes or some camping trips that weren't that great, right? And you can probably recall them and think, wow, that was horrible. Well, imagine if that was your only experience, right? Imagine if that hike or that camping trip was your only experience. And you came back from that and someone said, you tried hiking or you tried camping. What did you think of hiking or camping? That sucked, it was horrible. I never wanna do that again. I don't know why these people are crazy, that do that stuff. I would never do that again. But if you really like it, you know that yeah, there could be some bad experiences, but there's some good experiences too. And if you plan a really nice hike and you've got good weather and everything else, it can be a really great experience. So to base someone's opinion on, well, my experience in one place was that it was terrible. Well, okay, come on, give it another shot, right? I mean, they're not all gonna be perfect. And if you see it in a couple of places, you'll probably understand, now I know what we were doing wrong in that other place because it's clear now, right? So that's one point here. And the other thing I wanted to say is one of the things that they talk about in their Scott (15:17) Right. Brian (15:26) 268 % failure rate article where they announced their research, is they focus a lot on that their methodology does a better job with really clearly documenting requirements before development starts. So Scott already knows where I'm going with this, right? I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding before we even begin this, because what they're saying is, Scott (15:42) boy. Brian (15:55) Yeah, one of the things Agile fails at is clearly documenting all the requirements up front. And my response as an Agile trainer is, duh. Yeah, of course, because we don't try to do that. We actually look at that from a different standpoint and say, you're fooling yourself that you can document all the requirements up front. The example I use in class is, well, We're not manufacturing, right? We don't do manufacturing work. We're not churning out the same thing over and over again. If I was doing that, I could document all the requirements upfront, because I've done it before and I know what it takes to do it. We're closer to research and development. So let me take an extreme research and development situation for you. Imagine I'm inventing the cure to a certain kind of cancer, right? And you come to me before that and say, great. Well, we funded the project to cure that certain kind of cancer. Here's the budget. you know, let's get all the requirements documented upfront before you start inventing that cure to cancer. You'd look at me, I'd look at you like you were crazy because I don't know what all the requirements are going to be before I invent this new way of solving the cancer problem, right? I have to experiment. have to try, I have leads, I have ideas about things I would try and that I think have promise, but I've got to go through trials. I've got to go through tests. And the results of those experiments will then guide where I go next. So I think there's a fundamental fallacy in just the idea of trying to judge whether Agile is successful or not about whether it can capture requirements. Scott (17:34) Yeah, right. And for those who've been around, I'm going to double down on that one, Brian, because I've seen this pushback to, hey, we've got to capture all the requirements up front. But every time I ask a company, things change. company priorities change all the time. If anything, we're suffering from just chaotic, inconsistent, random. I remember an executive once said, I love Agile. I can change my mind all the time now. He meant it. So, and even before Agile, there were statistics that showed that the majority of requirements never see the light of day or are to use. So we already know outside of Agile, it's a fool's game, the customer will know it when they see it. That's why it's complex. I think you're right. We're not doing something like manufacturing. We're trying to experiment and figure those things out. So the idea of bad Agile missing out on requirements, it feels good to say we've captured everything upfront. But I remember my first full Scrum project on my own with the whole company and the CEO saying, you know, I need to see this by October. I'm like, well, you'll see, you'll see something backed over, right? I wouldn't say that now, but this same CEO is so dead set, like, no, it needs to hit the state. He fully changed the look and feel of the whole website application we're building twice during that project. To me, it just tells me like, let's not play the game. Like I can still scope it, but let's accept it's going to change. The other part, when you say about just bad and sense of practices, there's a poll I put on my LinkedIn profile. Somebody might have seen this if you follow me on LinkedIn, but I asked. Brian (18:34) Ha Scott (19:00) You know, is the two day CSM enough to get you the results, your organization you want to see now for those who don't know CSM, obviously the standard, you know, training that people take to understand scrum from the scrum Alliance. there's certainly a lot of other courses, Brian, I know you do the advanced CSM CSP, advanced CSP. And there's more beyond that, but people by and large stop at the CSM. The percentage of it last time I checked was like 99 % of all people trained by the scrum Alliance. taking the CSM and it drops off. The percentage of people when I asked out there in the marketplace, is the CSM enough to get you the results? 95 % said no. So one, for my listeners, I'm to be a little bit of tough love on you. We ourselves might be the ones to blame for this. If we stopped our learning then, if we didn't encourage others at our org to learn and keep pressing in, you don't have the tools you need to be successful. The CSM was not all theirs. There's a slew of Equipping and training out there much less coaching and getting support. So I think there's also some miss on bad Agile. Like we never learned enough. Let's just take the basics of well, we have multiple teams. Well, but yes, the CSM doesn't cover multi team and scaling, so you got to figure that out and you're figuring out based on what you have. done it before you have valid experience and the number of companies who aren't getting coaching anymore. Now they end up just trying to figure out a methodology themselves and that's not their strength. The strength might be in -flight software for airlines. I don't know, it's not methodologies. And they're gonna take their best guess influenced by who? I'm gonna guess the PMO. And now you get this muddy version that yeah, doesn't get results. So I second that on the requirements issue and I second that just the fact that Bad Agile could be our own equipping. I do wanna add on the point about experimentation, encourage those. Brian (20:45) Yeah. Scott (20:48) The metaphor you give about camping is really great. I see a lot of out there in the world for those who are out in the scene, the whole dating scene, and you might be like, these dating apps are terrible. They don't work. Okay. I'm not going to argue they don't work depending on how you use them what's going on out there. But again, what are your options? The world's shifted and here's where we are right now. There's things we can do to do that better, but to simply throw that out, it's like, well, or dieting. Yeah, I tried that diet. It doesn't work. Dieting doesn't work. Well, Brian (20:59) You Scott (21:16) There's a mindset that goes with that. And did you follow up correctly? Did you look into the research underneath that? Even recently, I'm going through my own personal work around like sleep and health. I'm going through Peter Tia's Outlive, which is a fabulous read. But those are both like, here's some data and science, but you need to kind of hack everybody's different. Here's some ideas, try them out, see it works. Same with Scrum. Try these things out. It's not like, I did Scrum and we didn't get amazing results out of the gate. Well, you keep experimenting. It's simply empiricism. So those could be things for those listening, come back to that, look at your education level, look at options and keep learning and growing and try those things out. Cause could be, we didn't do our best to bring that or even on Mountain Good for their friends who listening who've gone through the Mountain Good courses and you have access to agile mentors. There's a community forum, there's a chance to interact, ask questions, there's lean coffee, bring your questions. How many of us actually go and take advantage of those resources? There's tons of knowledge, information, but most of us are just too busy. to get smarter and apply that. So that could be an action for people listening. What's your own next steps to grow and make sure you're doing the best agile out there that you can and you have case studies that you can reference. Could be an opportunity. Brian (22:24) Yeah, such great points. I'll build on your analogy there, or what you talked about with sleep a little bit, and thinking about how, you know, this is one of things I love about Agile, because, you know, if it was, this will maybe highlight the difference between Agile and Scrum a little bit for everyone, if you don't really understand this, right? If I were to say to you, make sure you go to bed at 10, and get up at, you know, six every day, right? You get eight hours, that's eight hours, right? You get hours of sleep, but you gotta be in bed by 10 up at six. Well, some people would hear that go, well, that's ridiculous. That doesn't fit my schedule. I work better at late at night and I'm not an early morning person. And you probably just say that's terrible. That's a terrible idea. But if I said to you, make sure you get enough sleep, right? Then you can apply that and think, okay, well, for me, enough sleep is this. And I know what that means. I know what it means when I get enough sleep. Scott (22:53) Thank you. Brian (23:23) And for me, that means I'm going to bed by 11 or 12 or whatever. Like I know when I need to be in bed and I know when I need to wake up in the morning and that's enough sleep for me. Maybe it's seven hours for me. Maybe it's nine hours for me. Right. That's the difference to me between Agile and Scrum is that Agile, and that's why I take such offense at anything that would say, it's a failure. Well, it's a principle. And if you're going to take exception to it, which one? Which principle or value are you going to call out and say, this is the one I disagree with, this is one I don't think is valid? Because it's not telling you exactly how to do it. It's not telling you what a sustainable pace is, for example. It's not saying only work 40 hours a week. It's saying everyone should work at a sustainable pace, a pace they can maintain indefinitely. And if you disagree with that, if you're going to say, well, that's a failure, Scott (24:05) Right? Mm -hmm. Brian (24:17) I don't think people should be working at a sustainable pace. They should be working at an insustainable pace. Well, I'm going to have an issue with you, right? And I'm going to say, where's your research on that? Like, where would you say that that's, you know, how could you back that up? So that's why I take, I think I'm welcome to people with different ideas, but I want to see the data. I want to see you back it up. And even, you know, something like this project, I want to say, what questions did you ask? You know, if you're just taking a poll of software engineers, how did you phrase the questions? Were they leading in how you phrase them? That kind of stuff can be very, very important and make a big impact on your numbers. So without the data, it didn't happen. Scott (25:01) Absolutely. I think that, well, and to that point, Brian, and I'm going to push a little bit. This word agile might be the most misunderstood word of the last decade or two. I guarantee you. You can ask 10 people and get 10 different versions of the answers. So like, what are we talking about? Let's take a step back and like, it's sense making to have a conversation around that. So for example, I remember this person who supposedly walked in, this is just this year, walked into the Brian (25:14) I agree. Scott (25:31) They're, you know, the head of the PMO, they've been doing agile. came from a large manufacturing company. Everyone recognized the name. Now there's other company that got brought in. Let's do this right. And, you know, has all this agile experience. And I'm actually having a conversation. We're talking about planning and predictability and how to get the teams where we need to. And I mentioned this about Velocity and she said, Velocity has nothing to do with planning. And for those who don't know, one, reach out and talk to us, because we can help you do that. The second thing is, in my mind, I didn't even know how to answer. That is the thing we use for planning is how much does your team get done, and we'll extrapolate what they're going to get done by the certain date. But I remember just feeling like, and you're saying you're walking out with all this Agile experience, and you're heading up the PMO on how we roll out Agile. Thank goodness that CTOs are like, Brian (25:56) Right. Scott (26:16) It has everything to do with planning. And I'm like, thank goodness you straightened that out because I didn't want to say anything. And I'm going to add to that at the leadership level and management level, because management statistically is going to be your biggest inhibitors to continued agility and growth. Management in terms of how we work around here, which is essentially a culture, how we do things around here. That's going to be seven of your 10 reasons you get stuck. When I've polled and asked numerous groups, how much does your leadership understand about Agile on a scale of one to 10? And the numbers I'm constantly getting back are right around 3 .5 to four on a scale of one to 10, right? Which is bad. But here's the flip side is I say, okay, how much does your leadership and management think they understand about Agile? Well, then it basically doubles, right? And even I've people say like on scale of one to 10, they think they're at 12, right? So we have groups who are large influences of how this is going and the stakeholders and what they're asking who. Brian (26:53) Yeah. Scott (27:13) not only don't understand it, but think that they do. So if you're listening to this out there and you're kind of like, yeah, I agree. Yeah, so what do we need to do about this? And again, you have a lot of options, but if you let that hang over us in terms of that's gonna be your constraints, the true agility here, what we're trying out. And we just kind of accept that, yeah, they don't know anymore. It's almost like this gallows humor, ha ha, they don't get it. Yeah, but they're the ones who are like. asking for fixed scope, fixed date, don't understand about iterating, don't understand MVP, don't understand, like show up to the demos and see what we've done to give us feedback. So those are things that undergird this problem that that lack of understanding can be pervasive and yet people think that they do. And I'll go back to another leader who said they understood Agile, but when we went through the survey feedback to help them and work through that, his comment was, I'm tired of this deadline optional culture. Deadline optional. I guarantee that people don't feel like it's optional. If anything, they're feeling a lot of pressure. But when we miss dates, how they interpret it several layers above is like, they just don't care. This is all deadline optional. So I think there's a disconnect from leadership and management side and the knowledge and even those heading up the project management office that we need to kind of check ourselves. Have they gone to training? Do they know? You'd be amazed what that can do when they get on board and really support this. It clears up a lot of stuff at the team level. Brian (28:26) Yeah. Scott (28:36) But back to what said earlier, if all you did was send a few people to the two day course and that's it, yeah, you're probably gonna struggle. Brian (28:44) Yeah, and I support what you were saying about, need to take responsibility as trainers and as the Agile community that maybe this way was not the right way of doing this. And if there's one thing I might take a little bit of exception to now from how it's described in Scrum is, we talk about Scrum Masters being change agents. And I think that may have gotten a little overblown, right? Because I think in a lot of organizations, people look at it as these people who take a two day class are ready to lead our whole company in how we're doing this. And that was never the intention, right? I think the two day class is actually okay for someone to get kicked off and plugged in and being a scrum master on a team with support, right? If that's the only person, you only have two or three scrum masters that have all taken just a two day course and... no one has really a lot of experience, then it's probably not going to do very well. But if you have some base layer scrum masters who are new, and they have some coach layers that are more experienced, even if it's just one, even if you have that one senior person who hasn't just, you wouldn't do that with anything else. There's nowhere else in your company where you'd say, let's just hire a bunch of people who have never done this before and hope that it works. Scott (30:07) you Brian (30:09) You wouldn't do that with programmers, you wouldn't do with testers. You would have some, you want to have some senior people that can help guide and mentor and make sure that it's done the right way. But for some reason, you know, companies just kind of look at it as saying, no, I'll just hire a couple of scrum masters that are brand new and that'll solve it. Scott (30:27) Woo, I mean, can you imagine getting on a plane like, by the way, everyone, welcome on board. Our pilot's never flown before. I could do that, course. And not only that, we're trying to save money around here. So he's actually going to be concurrently helping fly three other planes at the same time, like while they're doing this work. Brian (30:32) But I passed the two day class. Yeah, because most of the flight, you're not doing anything, right? You're just sitting there. So we want to make sure they're still productive so he can fly three planes at once. Scott (30:50) That's a hard one be, exactly. That's yeah, which it's, it's, people might be laughing, but it's similar. Like we're trying to get pointy to point people, things change on that flight. And I see these teams, know, scrum master spread around. I remember a company scrum master on seven teams. Nevermind organizational change agent. This poor soul can't even have the meetings run. and someone bested me like, no, I know someone's on 12 teams as the scrum master. So if management doesn't understand the value of this person, and I like what you're saying. It's a tall order organization changes. And I like the idea of like lead improvement, but we kind of cut it at the knees. had one company this year and sadly we'd helped them get started. When we came back, kind of had some back -channel conversations with people that were disgruntled on the team. So thank goodness they had a safe place to come and ask questions. But the person rolling out Agile, it was kind of knighted to help do this. And she had been through the two day training, I think, but literally as they're giving feedback on what's working, not working, she basically said like, Stop complaining. This is the way we're doing things around here. I'm here to just kind of write the playbook. I think you're the person that should be spearheading how to improve every single sprint. And you're saying, we're done talking. We're complaining. I'm trying to formalize our process here. But basically, booted them out of the working group committee that was how we implement Agile. Now, those are two of the key Agilists there. So think we missed some of that when those examples happened. So my friends are listening. expect that people don't get it, expect that they're optimizing for their own concerns. And that's fine, but we don't stop there. We have to kind of work top down bottoms up on that. And there's lots of options and case studies and stories you can see. And certainly I'll just point again to a resource. If you look at Agile Mentors, there's plenty of experts who gonna, they've been on the interviews, been recorded, take a listen to those and hear some stories, help champion this. As a side note, Brian, just gonna add this in real quick. When we talk about Agile being dead or not, I think if we lead this company, like, I totally agree with Brian Scott, especially Scott. He really is very articulate and well -spoken. I think he's probably one of the best podcast interviewees ever. And they might say something like that, but they might come back and say, I agree with Brian Scott. Agile's not dead. We're just not doing it right. So what can we do about that? We'll look back and say, how are we implementing it? Is there a plan? Are we nudging people along? Expect them to kind of play these things out, but keep in mind, It's most of this company's is a multi -year journey to get those kinds of results, but I'm not going to go back as a takeaway from listeners podcasts and tell my management or leadership, we're not doing Agile right. We should do Agile right. For those who don't already know, they don't care. They don't care that we're doing Agile right. They don't even know what it is. We already talked about their scores. They don't know anyways. I'm not going to pitch any kind of change to what we're doing in terms of Agile being right or wrong. That misses. almost every single time for me. What I will pitch is, hey, leadership, you're frustrated that we're not delivering predictably. You're frustrated we're not getting more innovation. You're frustrated our quality is not where it needs to be. Yes, and here's some things we can do to get it there. Under the covers, what we're doing is improving the way we're doing Agile for more visibility, more clarity, better tracking, all that stuff. Your Scrum Master, whoever's leading this, doggone it, they cannot be just glorified JIRA admins. That's not gonna get you there. So take it back as a thing and think about how you're taking it back to them in terms of what matters for them, what's in it for them in business value. Pitch it that way. And you'd be surprised when you're like, if that's tied to the results, I'm listening. But not this we're doing as a right or wrong. So that could be part of reason it falls on its face when we do try to address the agile being dead is how you're presenting and working with your stakeholders and leadership. Brian (34:37) Yeah, and quite frankly, I don't care what you call it. If we need to make up a new name and your company has had such a bad experience with Agile, make up a new name for it. I mean, say, no, it's this new project. It's the, I don't know, tangerine process. And it's, yeah, you haven't heard of it? Well, boy, it's great. It's this tangerine thing. Right, it's the latest thing. Tomorrow there will be a book on it. Scott (34:59) That's the way you were saying. Yes. Brian (35:07) Amazon, the tangerine process as invented by. And here's my research study showing how it's better than Agile. Right, right, exactly. But you know, it's oftentimes there is kind of a problem with a name. And so like I said, I don't care what it's called. You know, I'll give a shout out here because I had some conversations at the know, couple of conferences that took place over this year. And I was talking with one of my friends, Michael Sahota. Scott (35:14) We interviewed three people and yes, we got the data. Brian (35:37) So shout out Michael if you, if anyone kind of points out, I he's listening, but if he's listening, shout out to you for this. But we were talking about kind of the problem with the training courses and you know, how we fixed that and everything. And, one of the things we were talking about is, you know, if we could, if we could distill it down, if we could just have people lead with one thing, if they could walk away from those courses really embedded with the concept of I'm going to inspect and adapt. I'm going to inspect what I did. and adapt and when something doesn't go well, I'm not just gonna say, nah, I'll just keep doing it the wrong way. No, if it doesn't go the way it needs to, stop, figure out why and then change and try something new. If I could just get a team to do that without knowing all the practices, all the other, right, I don't care if you call each other, know, Scrum Masters or whatever, if you can just get that, then I think you will. naturally evolve into what you need to be for that company. But you got to have that underlying mentality, culture of it's not acceptable when something goes wrong. We have to figure out why and change. Scott (36:36) Mm Absolutely, and I'm with you. I don't care what's called anyways. My reference is a colleague in Southern California, Ben Rodolitz, and he's very big. I just don't use those words anymore. to be honest, it could be actually confusing for people. If they don't know what Agile means and you're using words from Agile, they're going to think they're mapping to what reality is. They're misunderstanding. So maybe we do start with terminology. I'm with you. I'll see my friends. I don't care if you use agile scrum, whatever. I would just say, Hey, we're to try to do something, see how that goes. Well, we're visiting two weeks and take a look at what we got and get, we'd love some feedback. I mean, it's all the same stuff, but we're expecting to not do things right. And learn along the way and not stop. That's the whole process of it. So for some of you that are doing this and feeling like, I think agile's X, we're not seeing results. would, I would take a look and are you breaking any of those fundamentals to begin with? And I think we are quick to say, yeah, but we can't do X, Y, Z Scott. can't have dedicated teams. Brian (37:37) Yeah, yeah. Scott (37:38) We can't actually get the stakeholders into the sprint review. We don't got time for the retro. Well, then we're one, you're not doing that stuff right. But even if you just call it something else in the end, do something, inspect and adapt, right? Learn by experience, try something out. I hear too much of, I don't think that'll work here. Well, do some, find out, do something and see what you get from that. Worst case, you're going to learn. But a lot of people are like, you know, we can't do that. They won't go for that. And we never actually even tried. But I love what you're saying. Maybe. for those out there listening, try a refreshing thing of different words and then, or move away from the language that they think they know and don't fight that fight. Pick the fights you think you can win in advanced stuff to get results and get noticed. And Brian, you might've seen this too. I've seen company after company, when they actually see results, the stakeholders see results, business are real, they don't care what you're doing, do more of that. I've watched them just pivot and like rush in. So maybe we do step away from all these. Brian (38:28) Yeah. Scott (38:34) methodology wars and language issues and just get back to what gets results. Do more of that. Learn as you go and keep them learning, right? Like the brass tax. Brian (38:44) Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm not surprised we went a little over, but I appreciate everyone. I hope we didn't eat into anyone's, know, screw up your walking schedule or anything if you're listening to this while you're walking. But, you know, when Scott and I get on a soapbox, you can just guarantee we're gonna be a little bit over. That's just how it goes. Scott (38:49) Next. You would love it. Brian (39:09) Well, Scott, I really appreciate you coming on, because I think this is a great episode. I really appreciate your views on this, and thank you for making the time. Scott (39:17) Yeah, you bet. And for those listening, honestly, put some feedback. We'd love to see what you think in terms of Agile is dead and continue that conversation. I do think it's gonna be an ongoing conversation. But again, thank you, Brian. My pleasure. Always happy to jump on here. Great to work with you guys.

Join Brian Milner as he talks with leadership expert Christopher DiBella about mastering the art of influencing without authority. Learn how to lead with respect, empathy, and compassion to inspire your team, even when you don’t hold the official title. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian interviews Christopher DiBella, an expert in leadership and organizational development, about the power of influencing without authority. They explore how Agile leaders, especially Scrum Masters, can effectively guide teams and influence organizational culture through respect, empathy, and compassion. Chris shares practical strategies for building trust, navigating generational differences, and leading through relationships rather than formal authority. The discussion also emphasizes the critical importance of understanding the motivations and needs of others to achieve lasting influence. Whether you're an Agile coach, Scrum Master, or organizational leader, this episode provides actionable advice for leading in a way that inspires collaboration and growth. References and resources mentioned in the show: Christopher DiBella The Leadership Survival Guide: A Blueprint for Leading with Purpose and Impact by Christopher DiBella, PH.D. #37 Servant Leadership, Not Spineless Leadership with Brad Swanson #70 The Role of a Leader in Agile with Mike Cohn #109 Leadership and Culture in DevOps with Claire Clark Short Answers to Big Questions About Agile Leaders by Mike Cohn Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Christopher DiBella is a leadership coach dedicated to empowering aspiring leaders by teaching influential leadership practices that streamline processes and maximize potential. As the founder of the Institute of Leadership Coaching and Development, Chris is committed to helping others lead with respect, empathy, and compassion to build engaged, high-performing teams. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have a very special guest with me. I have Mr. Chris DiBella with us. Welcome in, Chris. Chris (00:13) Thanks so much, Brian. I appreciate you guys having me. Brian (00:15) Absolutely. We're very excited to have Chris on. Chris, if you're not familiar with Chris and his work, just a brief little introduction here for you. Chris has an MBA in project management. has a PhD in organizational leadership. He's an author and speaker. He's the founder of something called, actually founder and president, excuse me, of the Institute of Leadership, Coaching and Development. And he has a book that should be out right about now while you're listening to this called the leadership survival guide quotes to keep you from going extinct as a leader. So very, very interesting title there. I can't wait to read that. That sounds amazing. But the reason we wanted to have Chris on was one of the topics that Chris focuses on and talks about from time to time is the topic of influencing without authority. And I thought that's really, really interesting in the Agile world and how that relates to things like Scrum Masters and how we work within the organization and stuff. So let's start there, Chris. Let's just talk about where that, what does that title mean to you influencing without authority? Where did that come from? How did that enter your sphere? Chris (01:27) Well, I mean, for the last couple of years, it's a topic that's just been gaining a lot of momentum within the workplace. I guess the easiest way for me to describe the topic is to say that influencing without authority is simply the ability to motivate others to get them to take your direction. But we all know that the real world doesn't work that way. And it's not so easy to get people on board with our ideas and thought processes. So we just need to be more methodical in our approach. when it comes to influencing others. And it's more important now, particularly because when dealing with the different generational and personal generational differences and personalities in the workplace. Brian (02:06) I'm kind of curious how you define that difference. What does influencing with authority look like? What does influencing without authority look like? Chris (02:18) So they kind of both the same. think people sometimes fail to realize that influence is what actually provides power, right? And not authority. So they both kind of fall on the same lines for me. So when you're trying to influence others, you got to remember that with or without authority, you're trying to get somebody, you're persuading somebody, recently you're coercing them to try to get onto your thought process. So you just got to remember that. When you're dealing with them, that you have the capacity to impact what happens next in their lives. Their lives, sorry, not lives. like you have the ability to shape their actions and their behaviors and their opinions, but you also have the ability to have an effect on their character or their continued development. Right. And kind of adding a little bit more to that question is Ken Blanchard, said that the key to successful leadership in today's workplace is influence and not authority. So for someone to be an influential leader, they just need to learn the skills of confidence and clarity and communication. So that to me implies that even if you're not in a formal position of authority, you can still have an influence on those around you. So it's kind of just bouncing off. You know, there's a thin line of with or without authority. It's just understanding people and understanding how to get the best out of them. And you don't need to be called leader or manager to get that out of people. Brian (03:48) I'm kind of curious because especially with your background in project management, kind of more traditional project management, how does that play in project management? I mean, I've gotten in trouble sometimes in talking in class about this issue because I've, know, in my work history, my experience with traditional project management was very much one of... authority. was very much that that person who was the project manager, basically there was a date, a set of work that we're trying to accomplish. it seemed as if the project manager's job was to kind of drive the team, push the team, be the parent of the team, and make sure that they come in on time, on scope, on budget. How does the project management community in today's environment see this dichotomy between leading with influence or with authority. Chris (04:50) So that's a great question because I think, can I even touch on Scrum teams with this? Cause, cause I think they're, kind of go hand in hand for me. Right. and I, you know, from, if we use project management or Scrum teams as an example, right. No one, even as a project manager, right. No one has any real form of authority on the people side of things. Project managers really are just people put in place just to get things done. Right. They don't, they don't have an official title to get things done. Right. So it can be argued that. Brian (04:54) Yeah, yeah, yeah, please. Chris (05:20) while these individuals on a Scrum team or a project management team have no formal authority at all, that they're still ultimately responsible for project outcomes, right? Or it can be argued that an authority is inherently given to them based on their ability to act on behalf of all those objectives. Right. But the bigger point for me is that if there's no formal authority given, this could just limit the influence that someone has on the people in the processes side. Right. But that doesn't mean that you still can't be an effective leader who others look to. And this type of authority is based more on who you are as a person and how you treat others, as opposed to simply being viewed by that title that you possess. So I think there's there's a very strong connection there between Scrumteam and project managers. Brian (06:04) Yeah, I mean, it's a tricky thing because I mean, I think about this, like a lot of things, I'll make sports analogies and how I think about these relationships. And when I think about like the coach of a team, the coach can't make the players perform better. It has to be their own personal decision to do what they need to do. But on the other hand, we definitely hold the coach accountable if the team isn't doing well. And it seems almost like slightly unfair, you know, to think about this, that I can't really, I don't really have the authority to make that person do something. I have to, as we said, influence them to do it. Chris (06:50) So can I touch on that real quick? Cause you brought up a great analogy that I like to talk about from coaching perspective. So I used to coach soccer and if I start rambling, just tell me to shut up, but I'm licensed to coach up to a college level, right? But I always opted to coach at about the 12 and 13 year age group for boys and girls. And I chose this age group because I believe that this is just where I could have the most influence on them in their development and in their soccer growth, right? Brian (06:59) You Chris (07:20) The high school level and college level, they could still learn, but they've already got it in there at that age, right? They they've already established who they are on the field, their own identity, right? And they have a good enough skillset to go out there and play the game. But I wanted to be a part of getting them to that point. So I decided that coaching at a younger age group would just give me a better opportunity to mold those players into those high school and college athletes. And anyone listening to this with kids understands. how much influence we have on them at that age. But we also know how difficult it is to effectively influence them in a way that allows them to develop into their own person. So whether we're coaching 12 and 13 year olds, or if we're trying to coach and mentor our peers or our followers, there are just a lot of similar attributes that can be used to influence others to get them to achieve their goals and their successes and those outcomes. Brian (08:11) Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. you know, it kind of, it kind of brings to mind the, mean, we've talked, we talked a little bit about project managers, but, and, and touched a little bit on Scrum teams, but you know, that, that relationship with a, a, a Scrum master, think is also really interesting to consider in light of this, because I know one of the phrases that we use as trainers a lot when we talk about the Scrum master is a Scrum master leads through influence, not authority. And that that's kind of a defining characteristic of what a scrum master does. What does that mean to you? Because I know you speak about scrum as well and you have a lot of knowledge in this area. So how does that translate into the role a scrum master would play? Chris (08:58) So if you take it from a Scrum Master perspective, right? mean, that's kind of positional influence, right? So that can come from someone's job title or depending on the hierarchical level of that role, you know, that can have an effect on how influence is also portrayed, either positively or negatively. So whether you're a Scrum Master or some other form of positional leader, it just means that you're followed by other people. So how you choose to impact their life. from an influential aspect will determine the level of followership that you're able to acquire from them. Right. And then kind of going along with that, again, you know, there's really no formal authority in that role, but the influence can stem from expertise and just being competent. Right. That provides you with the background and the experience needed to be recognized for people to go to you for that advice, the leadership advice. But if you also have the available resources that your team needs and you know how to acquire them as well as deploy them, then you're going to have an impact on their success as well, right? If you have the necessary tools to provide them, that's also going to increase the likelihood of them trusting in you as those relationships are developed because that's really what influence is. It's about building relationships and developing those bonds, you know, and then influence. The biggest thing for me with influence is being direct and transparent in your approach. Whether you're a scrum master, project manager, anybody with or without authority, if you're direct and you're transparent and you seem genuine to people and you have a firm, a fair, and a professional tone, that's just going to let other people know that you can be counted on, right? And that you genuinely have their best interests at heart. So that's kind of where earned influence will begin to develop. Brian (10:50) Yeah. You know, I, there's a, there's a kind of aspect of this I try to draw out too, when we talk about this in class and that influence, as you said, trust relationship, right? It takes, it takes investment. It's not, influence doesn't come instantaneously. When you think about just in general in your life, the people who influenced you. Right, to use that word influence, that's a shift, that's a big shift. And when you think about the people that influence you versus the people who tell you what to do. And from my perspective, most of the people I would say, yeah, I'm heavily influenced by this or by that. It generally comes from the fact that I have, even if they're a public figure, even if it's, know, you know, Simon Sinek or Gary Vanderchuck, you know, I would say they influenced me not because I just heard one quote, but because I've consistently heard what they speak on and consistently say, yeah, I'm aligned to that. And this is really influencing the way I think about stuff. So how would you advise, especially someone like a scrum master, you know, if they say, yeah, I want to lead through influence, not authority, but... I've got a job to do. How do they start paving that road so that the influence is invited? Chris (12:26) Yeah. I love the Gary V shout out because I love Gary. He swears a lot like I do. So I'm actually being pretty good right now. I mean, I guess the first question to ask is, you know, when you think of the term influencer leadership, not for you, but in general, like when you think about it, what's the first thing that comes to mind, right? What are you hoping to get or achieve through that influence? Are you trying to get people on the same wavelength as you? Are you doing it only to get people to see things your way? Brian (12:28) You Yeah. Chris (12:54) Or are you doing it to expand their perceptions and their realizations? Right. And again, there's often the assumption that if someone doesn't have authority, then they don't, or they can't have any influence. Right. And this goes back to with or without authority, but even with formal authority, it's still possible not to have any influence. Right. Influencing without authority begins with first identifying where that influence comes from. And then looking at how others perceive your level of influence. So. regardless of where that influence comes from, you still just need to build those relationships on that platform of trust and respect if you want to have those successful results achieved. It's tricky though, because depending on where that influence comes from, that's what's going to help to guide and even determine how those relationships and those bonds progress. Brian (13:40) So that kind of leads to the area of thinking about, if a Scrum Master is going to do that, we can kind of see how that fits in. And one of the things that I hear quite often with people in the classes is, especially when we come upon the section where we talk about Scrum Masters having an influence in the organization, that we have a responsibility to help the organization. understand Scrum and to get the benefits of Scrum. There's often a double take when that happens and the students in class think, well, I don't understand how can I do that? I'm not the CEO. I'm not a manager. I'm a Scrum master. How am I going to be able to change the culture? How am I going to be able to influence what the leadership thinks? about this stuff. What kind of advice would you give from that perspective? Chris (14:42) Well, much like I kind of take the leadership perspective, there's no one size fits all, right? To this and influence the same way. Sorry. Influencing is the same way. So there's different approaches that you can take to influencing, right? There's rational approaches where you kind of legitimize the use of like fact -based logic to influence others, right? And you could use within that rational influencing, you could use exchanging, right? As a form of bartering or trading where you do something for someone and they gives you something in return, right? Give and take. And that builds trust levels, but it's also an effective approach since each party is still committed to achieving that common goal. In addition to the rational, right? Again, different, different approaches that you can take social approaches, right? Think about the breakfast club, right? The movie, the breakfast club. Sure. Everybody who's listening to that. to this has seen that movie, right? To me, this is the perfect analogy for trying to influence somebody from a social perspective, because that movie just embodies the epitome of social approaches to influencing. If you think about it, you got five high school kids in detention from completely different backgrounds, right? And they're trying to outsmart their lesson inspiring principle. So they're essentially forced to have to work with one another to achieve that common goal. So when you socialize, That's essential when it comes to building that relationship and that trust, but that also helps to appeal to those relationships as those bonds are developed. Right. And then you kind of use consulting, which helps just to deliver like a collaborative working relationship that not only produces those results, but that also improves the dynamic and the relationships and the culture of the team and the organization. Right. And then if you add onto that, like in the movie, you know, that's just going to lead to the Alliance building, which kind of is like the creation of a team structure that'll enhance the growth and development of everyone involved. So I don't, you know, then there's also emotional approaches. There's what I call the dark side approach, which I don't recommend because it's, always think Darth Vader, right? The dark side, you, you lead by avoiding issues with your followers or your teams, right? You want to manipulate and you want to intimidate and you want to threaten, but those only serve the need of the person trying to get what they want. Right now. Brian (16:42) Hahaha Chris (17:00) Kind of be an effective way to get results, to get results. Sure. To influence others and build relationships. Absolutely not. Brian (17:09) Yeah, fear leads to anger, right? Right, exactly. Yeah, Chris, you are speaking my language, talking about breakfast club, 80s movies and Star Wars. I come on, this is my wheelhouse here. Yeah, no, I agree. it's, you have that great example. I'm gonna go into the analogy here. Chris (17:12) It does, know, resentment, you know, it's... huh. Bye! Brian (17:38) You have that great example with that principal or vice principal, whatever position he had, that he came in with the authority figure approach. I'm in charge, you are underneath me, you will do what I say during this time. And it wasn't, hey, let's get through this, let's figure out the best way to make the Saturday go by. It was very much, are in need of my My heavy -handed approach otherwise you're gonna go off the rails and You know, there was no respect there was no relationship there It was it was purely, you know prison guard kind of mentality and you know, there's a There's an example. I always think back to You know, I played football in my high school days. I didn't I played some football I didn't I didn't play all the way through high school, but I played some football. So if anyone happens to be from my high school, no, I did not play my whole high school career. I know that I'm admitting it. Okay. But I remember, you know, for most of my football career, which was very short, I had coaches that were all of one type, which was the screaming head, right? They were the person that would yell at you and chew you out and try to motivate you in that way. Chris (18:35) you Brian (19:05) but I had one coach and he was the last coach that I had who was the head coach of our team. And he was a very soft spoken, quiet man. And I remember him in one practice pulling me aside and saying, hey, look, you're gonna have to do it this way. You're not gonna be able to do it this way. It's not gonna work. If you wanna be successful with this, this is what you're gonna have to do. And I just remember in that moment that I... paid more attention in that moment to anything anyone had ever tried to coach me in the past. And I remember feeling earnestly this desire that I want to please this man. Like I really want this guy to think highly of me and I want to give him my best. over the years since that moment, I've thought back to it lot and thought, that's a clear contrast. since the majority are the other way, that that one person who took this different approach really had this different impression on me of, yeah, this is, and to me that was a great example of leadership. Chris (20:17) Yeah. It's funny. Like you mentioned that when you had that cool, calm and collected approach, right? But that can also kind of be taken the other direction. And the first thing I think about with that kind of approach in a negative way is, Bill Lumberg office space, right? Right. Yeah. If you guys can just come in and come in on Saturday or Sunday, blah, blah, blah. Right. So again, so like that type of leader and, know, to stand on the negative, cause I like to focus on negative stuff because it kind of gets people thinking about what not to do. Brian (20:31) Yeah. Okay? Yeah. Chris (20:45) So like that type of leader, you know, they focused on that power, that title to impose their will on others. Right? So like you had what sounded like an influential kind of perspective from that cool, common, collected tone. Bill Longberg was cool, common, collected, but he was just a jerk. I'll say it without swearing. He was just a jerk. Right. But it's when we're at moving into a position of leadership or someone who wants to influence others. Right. It's we look at people like that and they, it's. Brian (21:02) Yeah. Chris (21:15) They look to lead from a place of authoritarian status, right? Again, the, my way or the highway approach, but this may stand from two different schools of thought, right? Because either it's the only way they've been taught to lead others or it's to intimidate others into submission. And I'll be completely honest with this by my own admission, I was that type of leader when I took on my first leadership role. Right. I'm Gen X. I had observed this leadership mentality throughout my early career. And I just assume that that was the attitude that got others to follow direction and achieve results. And it wasn't until that I realized this approach was not in fact effective and that there didn't need to be a brutish mentality, but I just needed to transform my mindset and adapt to the individual needs of each person on my team so that I could figure out how to get the best and the most out of them. So it's a learning curve. I mean, you're not going to get it the first time you get put into a position of leadership or the first time that you're tasked to influence people, right? You're not going to know what to do. But our leaders that we grew up with are going to be a huge inspiration. And I always tell anybody, no matter what, you can be an authoritarian leader or you can be a transformation leader. You are a person of influence, no matter what you do. And I always say that anybody in a company can be a person of influence. But if you're tasked with that, if you, you're given that role, whether you want it or not, you are a person of influence and you're going to have an effect on someone's character or continued development. whether that's good or bad. It's up to us as we evolve and we mature and we grow and we develop to figure out the good from the bad and figure out how to move forward in a positive, more positive direction to get the best out of the people that we're now influencing and that we're leading. Brian (22:54) Yeah. Yeah. It's such an interesting dynamic because I think you're right. There's authority that people have sometimes that just is sort of a natural thing. This is a very loose analogy, but I know I've been involved with groups of people who are tasked with doing something kind of ad hoc things thrown together for volunteer things or whatever, kind of things where you're not really in an organizational structure. but a group of people come together to do something. Maybe it's in a class or whatever. you know, sometimes you have that one person in the group that, sort of starts a little bit to be the leader of the group. And I've been in the case where the person sort of takes leadership, right? Where they, kind of try to, to just grasp it and control it and tell people what to do. But I've also been in a situation where that person sort of just emerges and the rest of the team is not reluctant to follow them. They're actually thankful that they have someone that can lead and guide them. And there've been occasions when I've been in those situations where that one jerk in the group will speak and say, hey, well, who made you boss? again, I understand if the person really is being bossy. But I've been in situations where the person's not being bossy and someone has said that, and the rest of the group actually turns hostile on that person. Because they're like, what are you talking about? They're doing what we need someone to do. And they just naturally kind of float into that. So I always think about that when I think about when people ask, how am I going to influence this organization when I don't have any authority in the organization? Well, leadership isn't about a title. It's about a how you approach things, right? Chris (24:53) Not anymore. used to be about a title, but it's not in today's workplace. It's just not, you know, again, I grew up in a different time where it was pull up your big boy pants, do your job. You know, my boss could talk to me any way they wanted. I wasn't going to take offense to it. wasn't going to take three days off to have a safe space. You can edit that out if you want, but I, you know, I just, you know, but it kind of speak adding onto what you just said about that, right? You had somebody who wanted to take that charge, but you had somebody else who wanted to. Brian (25:10) Yep. No, no, no. Chris (25:23) you know, who made you boss, right? So how do you influence through tension and conflict? Right? Because if you have somebody who wants to take the reins, but you have somebody combating them, now you're going to, it's going to create, somebody outwardly speaks against that person, that's going to create that tension. Right? So, you know, it comes down to like, how do you influence others when you don't agree with their choices or how they approach things in an influential. approach, right? Particularly when it comes again to those cultural and those generational differences. Right. And this is going to sound harsh, but how do you influence people when you just don't like them? Right. We don't like everybody that we work with. Right. And you're going to have to work with these people. And if you expect to be a person of influence, you got to suck it up and you just got to figure out how to get the best and the most out of them. Right. So again, it's during those times, right? It's just important to identify why it is that you want to influence people in the first place. Brian (25:59) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's why I'm glad that like a scrum value is not like everyone on your team, right? I mean, it's respect and you should have respect for people even if they have a difference of opinion with you, which we were talking about this a little bit before we started, just the idea that, you know, we can exchange ideas and we can have a difference of opinion on ideas. That's not a problem, right? That's just trying to figure out the best idea. We're challenging the idea to see which one is the best approach. It's only when that becomes a personal thing, when it starts to become about the person, not the idea, that's when it's, well, that's when it turns into a destructive conflict. Chris (27:04) Yeah, it's, you I always like to say, think leadership or influence comes down to three simple words. Respect, empathy, compassion. If you can figure out how to master those three words, which I think it's virtually impossible to master them. But if you could figure out how to have some sort of ability to figure out how to use those words, you can lead anybody. Right? It doesn't matter. As long as you can have respect for them, show empathy, put yourself in their shoes for why they might be feeling a certain way. and have compassion for why they feel that way. Try to understand where they're coming from. Brian (27:37) That's awesome. I love that. Respect, empathy, compassion. I think that's a great place to end it. So Chris, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts and wisdom with us on this. And just again, I'll mention this in the outro, but look for Chris's book that's out now, Leadership Survival Guide Quotes to Keep You from Going Extinct as a Leader. So Chris, thank you so much for coming on. Chris (28:03) Awesome, man, I appreciate you having me. It was fun.

Discover how recognizing and accommodating different collaboration styles can transform your Agile team dynamics. Join Brian Milner and Jessica Guistolise as they delve into the key to effective and inclusive collaboration. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian interviews Jessica Guistolise about the diverse collaboration styles that impact team dynamics. They explore the importance of recognizing and accommodating different collaboration styles—relational, expressive, and introspective—to create effective and inclusive collaborative environments. Jessica provides practical tips for Scrum Masters and facilitators to cater to these styles during meetings and retrospectives. The discussion emphasizes the value of diversity in collaboration styles, which brings different perspectives and ideas to the table, fostering creativity and innovation. References and resources mentioned in the show: Jessica Guistolise Lucid The Collaboration Style Quiz & Report The Global Scrum Gathering Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Join the Agile Mentors Community Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Jessica Guistolise is an Agile Evangelist and coach at Lucid who excels in helping organizations deliver continuous value to their customers. With a passion for people over process, she specializes in change adoption, gaining critical buy-in, and establishing trust in Agile methodologies across various industries. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We are back for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have a special guest with us. have Jessica Gastolis with us. Did I say that correctly? Jessica Guistolise (00:14) You did. Thank you so much. It's a mouthful. I am so happy to be here. Thank you so much for inviting Brian (00:21) Absolutely, incredibly excited to have you here. For those who aren't familiar with Jessica, she is an evangelist at Lucid. So I'm sure we'll hear a little bit about that as we talk. She is an agile coach and she has the credentials to back that up. She has from the Coaches Training Institute, a professional coach certification and also she's an ORSC coach, if you are familiar with that. I'm familiar with that. I know there's a lot that goes into getting those. So it's not just, you know, filling out a, sending in some box stops and, you know, getting it back in the mail. and, so the reason I wanted to have Jessica on is because she was speaking at, or she did speak at the scrum gathering that just took place, back in May. And, she had a couple of talks actually that she did with, Brian Stallings there. but one of them really caught my And I thought it would be interesting here to the audience. And that's about collaboration styles. So let's dive into that topic. When we talk about collaboration styles, Jessica, don't we all collaborate the same? Jessica Guistolise (01:33) You know, it's funny, we don't actually. Though, although there is a kind of a misconception that we do because we collaborate in the way that we collaborate, but not everybody collaborates in the same way. And so for us to create really amazing collaborative environments, it's helpful to have an awareness of those different styles. And if we facilitate in such a way that cares to each one of those styles, you're gonna get so much more in the room than you would if you only stick with, well, here's how I collaborate. So obviously this is the way to do it. Brian (02:09) Right. Yeah, I think this is such an important topic because I know one of the questions I'll get a lot in classes or just even in Q &A sessions when we talk about retrospectives is, I'm having a hard time facilitating my retrospective and my team doesn't want to talk or my team's quiet and shy. And to me, this is all kind of indicative of this concept of you're probably not recognizing that they have different collaboration styles than you do. Jessica Guistolise (02:41) Yeah, absolutely. And it's so amazing because I think as Scrum Masters, as Agile Coaches, this is a really important piece to recognize because as the facilitator, you're really building the container. think of these events as like the containers and the folks who are doing the work, they're all the content. But if you build a container that's going to allow for that content to emerge in a healthy way, you just, I mean, Anything's possible. Brian (03:10) Right, right. And you know, one of the things I love to say in classes is just that, you know, that facilitation, that's the root goes back to this phrase, it means to make easy. And you know, that's our job is to make whatever that thing is easy. And if we are, if we're not aware of our own personal preference and style and how we collaborate, then it's harder for us to even be empathetic or recognize that other people have different styles and much less how to accommodate them and be inclusive of them in those environments. So I just think it's a really important Jessica Guistolise (03:51) Well, and the interesting thing too, besides easy, there's also an element of safety. Because if you're asking me to collaborate in a way that makes me really uncomfortable, then I'm spending all of that time in my discomfort and trying to put forth ideas. Those two things are so, they clash. And so there's also an element of just creating an environment of not just easy because this is the way that I collaborate, but I feel safe in collaborating in a that make sense to me. In fact, there's some, there are a couple of styles that are almost opposites. So if you're asking me to collaborate in that way, ooh, I am not sharing anything with you. Brian (04:31) Right, right, you have that amygdala hijack going on. You're kind of, you're in that fight or flight mode of just, my gosh, I'm panicked. I don't want to do this. I feel highly uncomfortable. you know, it's, can, you know, literally it's blocking those neural pathways of actually being able to collaborate and access, you know, the parts of your brain that would allow you to, to contribute in that kind of environment. Jessica Guistolise (04:59) Yeah, it's fascinating actually, right before the study that was done came out, I was in a collaboration with a group of people who were collaborating in a way that was wildly uncomfortable. And I came out of that meeting feeling dumb. Like I really was like, wow, I didn't, I just gave nothing. But then, you know, a little while later I was like, well, but I have this idea and this idea and this, wait a minute. I was just stuck because this isn't a way that's very comfortable for me. Brian (05:28) Yeah. Well, you know, I know you probably know this, but for anyone else listening out there as well, I have definitely felt that way as well in sessions that were kind of contrary to, you know, opposite of what I prefer. And, you know, the way I always describe it is I don't, I'm not a person who thinks out loud. I think internally, I think quietly and then express it later. I need time to process and work through things. But I recognize there are others who are verbal processors who need to speak out loud and and You know if you're in a meeting with a bunch of those Types of people who have that collaboration style and and yours is a quiet one Then you know I've walked out of those rooms before feeling like gosh I'm the dumb one in this meeting because I didn't have anything to contribute Jessica Guistolise (06:12) Yeah, I didn't provide any value in that, but there is, there's so important to recognize that. And I think there's, there's, there are ways to create these containers and to create these collaboration sales that really help to make it so that everyone can feel comfortable collaborating in the way that is going to be comfortable for them. And it just, it's, you know, it's the facilitator work of being prepared. Brian (06:16) Right, right. Jessica Guistolise (06:38) preparing for the meeting or the event, creating the container in a way that's going to be safe, comfortable, and easy for everyone. Brian (06:45) Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, let's get to the meat of that then, because I know there are a few, you kind of delineated these in the presentation that you had. So walk us through, what are the differences in these different kinds of collaboration styles? Jessica Guistolise (06:59) Yeah, so the study was done, Lucid did a really interesting study. I was so excited by this. And what they found was over half of knowledge workers identify with one of three collaboration styles. And the other part of that is you may not land fully in one of the three and you may have kind of a blend of them, but these are the ones that we see most often. And one of the things that I always like to point out too is that none of these are Like it's just the way that you feel comfortable. They're all really helpful and healthy and really great ways of coming together. So I'll start with the one that I most identify with because it makes the most sense to me. That's we normally create collaboration is we see how do I collaborate and I'll collaborate with you. So the first is relational. And so relational collaborators really want that human connection. Like they want to be, they want to spend some time. How was your weekend? Or just if it's a brand new person, let's get to know each other a little bit before we dive into trying to solve problems. there's it's, it's almost like, for me, I just feel like I need to be in relation with, in relationship with someone before I'm comfortable collaborating. It's like, the metaphor I like to use is, is like baking bread. If I'm in relationship with you, I'm gonna bring you ingredients and recipes and stuff that I'm playing with and trying to figure out. But if I'm not in relationship with you, I will have that entire thing baked and then bring it out and see if you like it. But that's not collaboration, right? That's me by myself and how much better is the bread gonna be if somebody says, well, let's try this and let's try this and let's try this. So that's a relational Brian (08:49) So that sounds like that one in particular needs just a tremendous amount of trust to be effective. Jessica Guistolise (08:55) It does. really does. And I actually, I'll tell you a story about this because, so I, I was working with, an individual who had an interesting problem to solve another agile coach. and he'd come up to me and he was like, I have this interesting problem. Do you have anything in your coaching toolbox or knapsack that you can pull out for me really quickly? And I was like, Hmm, you know what? actually don't. but let me think about And so I went, was doing some other things and sort of in the back of my brain. And then I had just an absolutely ridiculous idea. I mean, it was like, I, I felt silly even thinking it, let alone saying it out loud, but I was in really great relationship with this other individual. So I ran across the hall and I said, okay, I have a really dumb idea. And he goes, okay, let's hear it. And I told him, and he goes, wow, that's really dumb. Let's play with it. And so we played with it and got it into something and he took it back to the team and it worked spectacularly. And I think he's still using it today as an exercise that'll help with the team's collaboration. but if I hadn't been in relationship with him, I would have had that dumb idea and then I would have let it go. Brian (10:10) Right, right, because you know, you don't want to get made fun of or you don't want to be made to feel dumb or anything. So yeah, absolutely. You got to have that trust and sense of safety with them to be able to bring it up. That's a great Jessica Guistolise (10:23) Yeah. The second one is one that I wish I had more of and I just don't. So some people identify as expressives. If you're an expressive collaborator, you are ready to dive in at any moment. Like somebody can throw out a topic and you've got, you're the first voice in the room. You love using visuals and drawing out your ideas and throwing up sticky notes and emojis. You're one of those people that's I'm ready to, I'm just ready to share. I really wish I had more of that. Sometimes I think of them as blerters. Like they're just willing to blurt it out. Whatever is there on top of mind and a brainstorm. And I just, think that's so admirable and it's just not a skill that I have. Brian (11:09) So less of that filter then. mean, it sounds like they don't necessarily need to have that basis of trust. They're just sort of always willing to say what's on the top of their mind and get it out in the open. Jessica Guistolise (11:22) Yeah, yeah, I think it's a great way of expressing themselves. And they also have maybe a harder time spending that time getting into relationship and all of that ooey gooey stuff. And they're like, let's get to the work, you know. But if we have an awareness that I as an expressive am working with a relational collaborator, some of the work is getting into relationship. So now I feel more comfortable spending that time because I know that the work we're going to do after that is going to be greatly Brian (11:57) And correct me here if I'm wrong, because I'm just trying to make sure that we're understanding all speaking the same terminology here, but it sounds like the way you describe this, that expressives are not necessarily verbal expressives. Like you mentioned, someone who's more sketch note based or anything like that. So they may not feel comfortable speaking, but they're very comfortable with the concept of getting an idea out of their head quickly in one way, or Jessica Guistolise (12:26) Yes, exactly. It could be in visual form. think of like people who always have memes or GIFs at their fingertips. Like they're just ready to go and send out these their ideas into the world and not hold on to them tightly. know, they hold them on, hold on to them, Lucy, please, because they're coming out in the world. Brian (12:44) Hold on loosely, but don't let go. Awesome, I love that. Okay, and then was there another one? Jessica Guistolise (12:52) There is. So the last one is introspective. So an introspective collaborator, I dip my toe in introspective collaboration as well. Deep work is really, you love deep work. Spending time really processing, thinking through, chewing on an idea, tossing, playing with it a little bit yourself before beginning to share. It's the opportunity to do some research, do some brain writing, spend some time in ideation. And you might even feel comfortable having a conversation with one person rather than if you have a giant group of people sending them into breakouts to have individual conversations. sending out thoughts about what's going to happen before the meeting or the event so that they've got that time to themselves to say, here's what I'm thinking about this topic. before throwing them into a room with a whole bunch of people and expect them to just go. Brian (13:57) Right, right. Yeah, no, I mean, of these three, yeah, that one sounds very close to what I would identify with for sure. And yeah, I mean, I think one of the characteristics I would kind of try to relay that home to everybody is I love when a collaboration session spills over across days because I love having the ability to go home and sleep on it Jessica Guistolise (14:18) Yes. Brian (14:24) you know, when I'm walking my dog or getting ready in the morning and the shower or something that that's when the brilliant idea will strike is when my brain is actually distracted and thinking of something else. That's when I can really think about things. And I, I feel like I need that time to sort of let it percolate and kind of, you know, seep in a little bit before I can come back and really contribute. Jessica Guistolise (14:46) Totally. One of the things that I really appreciate that we do at Lucid. So that meeting that I was talking about where I walked out and I went, I provided zero value in that meeting. We've got an open board for that for after. And there's an expectation that if you have ideas afterwards that you have the opportunity to come back to it the next day or the day after that. It's not, okay, we collaborated, close this. That's it, we're done. but you actually get the chance to do some of that asynchronous follow on day, day after kind of collaboration. Brian (15:20) Love that. Well, and two, Scrum Masters out there, hear that, listen to that, right? Think about that from that kind of a meeting. This is just a normal meeting, right? But we sometimes can get so structured into the idea of a retrospective being only at this time and this confines, and we have our time boxes and everything else. But yeah, if we can have some spillover time as well, pre or post, right? Just having that ability Jessica Guistolise (15:30) Hm. Brian (15:49) let people think through and contribute after the fact, that can really deliver some great results and allow you to include all these different collaboration styles. So then relational, expressive, introspective, these are kind of the three styles that you guys highlighted in your talk. All right. So let's say I'm a Scrum Master and I might identify with one of these. How does that help me? How does that help me to do my work with my Jessica Guistolise (16:23) Yeah, fantastic. So Brian, you immediately recognize your own sort of tendencies or collaborative tendencies, collaboration styles. But if you think about those you work with, do think you could kind of identify what different styles other people you work with on a regular basis might have? Brian (16:43) Yeah, I think so. mean, most people who are listening to this know my boss. I would, it's kind of funny. If I was going to try to pin Mike Cohn down in one of these three. Gosh, you know what's funny is I'm not sure because he sort of has a blend of all three. Jessica Guistolise (17:08) Well, that's absolutely like I mentioned, I'm sort of I'm a relational with an introspective kind of toe in introspection. And so I think there's a lot of people who are a little bit of a mix. And so the easiest thing to way to find out is to ask, share what these styles are, and ask what find out what's going on with your team, if they were to self identify, because it's easier to self identify, obviously, And then now you've got a great understanding of what's going on with the rest of your group. It was so fascinating to me when we did the conference talk, we had everybody self -identify and then collect in your self -identified group. So all of the expressives were together, all of the relationals were together and all of the introspectives were together. And then we had them do some work together and they were describing what helps them. to collaborate best. And the expressives were loud and they were right away writing all over the sheets of paper that we had for them. were, you I mean, it was like, it was a boisterous part of the room. The relationals immediately, hi, I don't think we've met yet. Let's get to know one another very quickly. You know, what do you love about your collaboration style? I mean, they really spent that time getting to know one another. And they were kind of coming to consensus before, Brian (18:23) Hahaha Jessica Guistolise (18:35) before writing anything on their page, because they were making sure that everyone was relating and getting their voice in. The introspectives, quiet, quiet, quiet part of the room, and they all had sticky notes and they were writing their ideas and then they were putting the ideas next to each other that might be similar, and then they started having conversations. So as a scrum master, as a facilitator, to know what your team's style is, is again, going to help you create the experience of inviting each one of those styles to collaborate in ways that best work for them. I mentioned introspectives, send out the agenda beforehand, make sure that they know the topics, have some silent brain writing time, because expressives are going to start putting their stickies out anyway, but allow that quiet moment to be there to accommodate those styles. You may put them into breakout rooms or have them meet with one other person. Especially if you've got like a larger collaborative of that, where you've got a bunch of people together, one -on -one first, then maybe four -on -one, know, one, two, four -all kinds of experiences are going to help those introspectives be able to bring their voice forward. You'll also have a moment of connection. Nobody likes icebreakers, so I think of them more as like relationship activities. If we're going to have a relationship activity, that feels way better than an icebreaker. Brian (19:52) Ha Jessica Guistolise (20:00) And spending time really allowing for, how are we feeling today? Let's bring some awareness to what's going on collectively as a group. All of that is helpful because then your relations, they've gotten their relationship moment. They feel connected to the people that they're working with, which means they're going to feel connected to the work that they're doing. So that connection before content allows the contact to be significantly improved. and expressives, give them the space to do it. mean, really allow them to be that voice in the room that jumps in and gets everyone excited. They bring people along. So building your events in ways that allow people to bring, be their best collaborative self is so helpful. The other thing that I think is really helpful trying to make sure you've got diversity of collaboration styles on your team. I'm a huge proponent of DEI and diversity and bringing together wildly different perspectives and ideas. And I just think that all of these interesting and complicated human problems that we're trying to solve need interesting, complicated humans and interesting, complicated teams. Brian (21:20) Hahaha Jessica Guistolise (21:22) And if you've only got introspectives on your team, there's going to be these relation, relationship type thoughts that are going to be missed and same with expressives. And so I think as you're building out a team, or if you have a team, just thinking about like, Ooh, do we have a diversity of collaboration on our team? And am I making sure that each one of those styles are cared Brian (21:44) Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like we, I know we talked about this quite a bit on our podcast. know, there are different neuro types, people think in different ways, people have different preferences and you're absolutely right. You know, what, what we need is people who see things from different angles. you know, if we all see things from the same perspective, then we're, don't have anything really to share. We all can just observe one thing and give our own perspective on it. But how much better is it if you have someone who's standing on the opposite side and says, wait a minute. There's actually another dimension to this that you guys aren't really able to see and bringing that to the table can make all the difference in the Jessica Guistolise (22:20) complete difference. And isn't it more fun? Everybody thought the same things that I did. Boy, the whole, it would just be boring. And it's a delight to see the ways in which other people see things and to go wander over and see their perspective. like you said, it brings more dimension to the things that we're working on. Brian (22:45) Yeah, and at the end of the day, we need some of that conflict. It's not all conflict is bad conflict, If I have a different viewpoint than you, then you're challenging my way of thinking and I'm challenging yours. And hopefully we end up at an endpoint that is a better endpoint because it's been challenged, because we haven't just accepted as rote what somebody thought. Jessica Guistolise (23:14) Absolutely. I'm totally agree. I think healthy conflict, healthy conflict and collaboration is, is helpful. I collab. I should have said in that moment, I don't collaborate like this. Can we get to know one another? And I probably would have met some folks in the organization that I, because it was, it was not people that I spend a lot of time with on a regular basis, I would have met people across the organization that I would have. Brian (23:28) Right. Jessica Guistolise (23:43) would have liked a number. Brian (23:45) Well, and I think it's amazing how powerful it is to have a name for something and be able to just kind of say, hey, this is what this means and this is what this is behind this. And if I know I am relational, then I know kind of what I need to be successful. I know what's gonna set me off. I know what's gonna be difficult for me. And I have a much higher likelihood of being productive in that kind of environment because I'm aware of those sorts of things. I think I know the way that you guys started was to try to get people to understand a little bit about where they were first before thinking about others. And I think that that was a genius way to approach that because I think you're right. You kind of know where you are on the map a little So yeah, we've talked about this a little bit when I kind of did my research and work on neurodiversity and different neuro types and stuff and how these different things relate. yeah, it's just like we were saying, right? You need different perspectives. You need different kind of approaches to problems if you're going to solve them and think in different ways when you approach issues. All right. If we understand there's relational, there's expressive, there's introspective, we kind of can pin where we are. We're starting to see where others are. How do I put this into practice? If I'm designing a retrospective, let's just say, and I know my team is made up of, I got five people, I got, you know, of three introspectives and two relationals on my team and no expressives. How's that gonna change how I prepare my Jessica Guistolise (25:36) yeah. Well, probably don't just have them start talking about it. I mean, so, you know, as you're thinking through the as you're thinking through the five stages of a retrospective, what you might do is like, okay, so if I'm going to open the retrospective, how might I open the retrospective in a way that's going to cater to my relational? That's an easy one to grab on to, right? Let's let's talk about Brian (25:41) No open discussion, Jessica Guistolise (26:04) What's something interesting that's in your wallet or your purse or just something that's gonna help the group begin to be in relationship with one another? You'll wanna have some quiet time. Allow them to spend some time on their own thinking about what happened over the course of the last week before you even start throwing things up. You might have just a five minute, close your eyes walk yourself through the last sprint and think about what were the big things that happened before even going into the writing. There's some really nice introspective time to chew on what happened, what's going on. You may put them, like I said, in small groups of two or three instead of having them come together to try to come up with experiments as a whole wide group right off the bat. So when When you figure out, here's the things that we want, here's the topics, here's what the data is telling us, and here's what we want to run an experiment on. Again, allow for that time to go back and really chew on. So we have this thing that we want to work on in the next iteration. So I'm going to spend some time thinking about maybe 10 different ways that we might experiment on that instead of having the whole group have that conversation right off the bat. So there's a whole bunch of different things you could do. to kind of unlock the collaboration in all of your team members. Brian (27:37) Yeah. Yeah. We were talking a little bit before our podcast about how we're music nuts and, you know, really get into that world. you know, the ideas crossed my mind. It's sort of like, you know, when you think about composing music or you think about a piece of music, right? If everything wasn't a major key, that would get boring. You know, we like to have minor keys on occasion or sometimes augments. augmented keys or different time signatures and different rhythms and things that kind of come to play in a piece of music. And sometimes we'll even shift those in the course of a single song. So if you think about a retrospective kind of in that or a facilitation session even larger than a retrospective, but just any facilitation session, right? You don't want it to get boring. You don't want to just cater to one thing. You want to be able to have some variety and that makes it interesting that keeps people's attention. Jessica Guistolise (28:32) Please. It does. mean, think about just even how you might shift things up in a daily scrum. Every day come to it, okay, so today we're gonna do an expressive scrum. Warn your introspectives that that's coming. Today we're gonna do a relational scrum, daily scrum. Think about how you might add these elements into your planning session, because that's a deeply collaborative session, and you wanna make sure that there's space for each one of your collaborative. collaboration style team members to have the ability to you I think everybody would be surprised how much more information comes when we feel comfortable collaborating in these different styles and There's edges in each of us right so helping to kind of Walk those edges I've I have been working really hard on trying to be more expressive I asked expressives. How do you do that? And really a lot of it is I don't hold my expresses, the things that I express tightly. They're just ideas and I'm willing to just throw them out. And so for me, that's an edge for me that I can walk up to. And so you can help your team members because they're not always gonna be on a team that has an understanding all of these styles exist. Although as a team member, I might say, hey, let's all talk about our collaboration styles real quick as a part of our working agreement. But you may find yourself on a team that doesn't have that same understanding of the collaboration styles. And so if you work on kind of moving that edge further and further, you're stepping into it a bit, then you're going to be more comfortable collaborating in multitudes of environments. And ladies and gentlemen, and all of those in between, We want to hear your voice. so doing the self work in some of that I think is also really important. Brian (30:37) Absolutely, yeah, I couldn't agree more. Well, I can't thank you enough, Jessica. Thank you for taking time out and coming in and explaining this to us. It's just, one of the joys of getting to do this kind of thing that I get to have these kinds of conversations with the Agile community and different members of our community. So thank you for making time and sharing your wisdom on this with everyone. Jessica Guistolise (31:00) Yeah, thanks, Brian. This has been an absolutely delightful conversation. And if people want more information on the collaboration styles, there is a report out there. And with the report, there is also a quiz you could take that says, wait a minute, what is my collaboration style? And you could have your whole team take the collaboration style quiz. And then you'd really have an understanding of where is everybody at? And how can we make sure that their voice is in the system? Brian (31:22) That's an awesome suggestion. We'll definitely put that in our show notes, too. So we'll make sure everyone can just find that in our show notes and not have to hunt for it or anything. But that's an awesome suggestion. Well, again, thanks, Jessica. I appreciate you coming on and speaking with us. Jessica Guistolise (31:39) Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's been a delight.

Explore the dynamic future of work with Brian Milner and Heather McGowan as they discuss the essential shifts in mindset and culture needed to thrive in the augmented era. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner interviews Heather McGowan, a renowned future of work strategist, about the rapidly changing landscape of work in the augmented era. Heather emphasizes the importance of adaptation, empathy, and human connection in response to technological, societal, and cultural shifts. They discuss the pervasive issue of loneliness in the workplace and the critical role of leaders in fostering a culture of trust, agency, and high expectations to drive performance and productivity. Heather also shares insights on finding personal purpose and intrinsic motivation to excel in the future of work. This conversation provides valuable strategies for individuals and leaders to navigate the evolving work environment successfully. References and resources mentioned in the show: Heather McGowan Heather’s Website The Adaptation Advantage by Heather McGowan & Chris Shipley The Empathy Advantage by Heather McGowan & Chris Shipley The UpSwing by Robert Putnam Agile Training for Teams & Leaders Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Heather McGowan is a leading strategist and keynote speaker on the Future of Work, known for transforming mindsets and organizations with her insights on continuous learning, leadership, and culture. Her groundbreaking approach has empowered employees, enhanced leaders' effectiveness through empathy, and driven businesses to achieve their goals in a rapidly evolving market. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back with you for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today we have someone I'm very, very excited to have on. She was the keynote speaker that kicked off our Scrum Gathering in New Orleans this year. It's Ms. Heather McGowan. So welcome in, Heather. Heather (00:20) Hey there, thanks so much for having Brian (00:23) I'm so excited to have Heather in. If you're not familiar with Heather's work, she has, think, the best job title I think I've ever heard. She is the future of work strategist. And like I said, that's awesome. I love that. But beyond that, there's a lot that I could say about Heather to introduce her to you. But I'll give you a couple of things just so you kind of understand the perspective of her coming home. First, She was named one of the top 50 female futurists by Forbes. So let that sink in. She also has two incredible books out there. One called The Adaptation Advantage. has more than two books, two recent books. The Adaptation Advantage, Let Go, Learn Fast, and Thrive in the Future of Work. That's one. And her latest one that just came out recently, it's called The Empathy Advantage. leading the empowered workforce. And I'm very, excited to have her on because her talk at the Scrum Gathering really captured my imagination. And I think everyone's imagination there. so let's just dive in, Heather. Let's talk about this whole concept of the future of work. And I think one of the ways you started in the presentation, I think, was really important to try to understand where we are on the timeline of the work. the way we have progressed through ways of working. So where are we? Where would you put us on the timeline? Heather (01:57) Yeah, so first of all, the title, Future Work Strategist, was not something I applied for. It's a title. Brian (02:03) Really? Because I want to fill out that job application. Heather (02:07) It's a title I created because I felt like there was a need for many of us to be working in looking at the future work, which is something that will never be done. It often gets conflated with being about where we work or DEI issues, but really it is about those things. But for me, it's about leadership, it's about workforce, it's about learning, it's about adaptation, it's about purpose. It's about adapting right now pretty rapid changes that are not only technological, but societal and cultural and demographic and generational. And we're wrestling with just a lot of change at once. one of the things I say to folks is sometimes I think that the majority of what we're going to be doing in the near term is helping each other adapt. Because we're to have to adapt at a clip we've never had to adapt to before. Prior generations had maybe one paradigm shifting change in a generation. Now we might have three or four. Brian (03:02) Yeah. Heather (03:03) So in terms of where we are, we had the agricultural era and the industrial era and the information era. Well, we're now in the augmented era. So we're dealing with technology consuming tasks that we do at a faster and faster clip. And a lot of people kind of catastrophize it about technology taking away jobs. We're the only species that would invent things to make ourselves irrelevant. that's how what people, but it doesn't make any sense. What we're really doing is inventing technologies that augment our potential. And it requires us to not only learn and adapt and think about differently about who we are, which is what the adaptation advantage was really about, but how do we relate to each other? How do we get the best out of each other? And that's really what the empathy advantage was about. So we're in the augmented era. Technology is going to continue to come at a faster and faster clip. But it's more important for us to think about how we learn and adapt and how we lean into our uniquely human skills. Because... The technology can provide the answers, but it's up to us to find the questions. Brian (04:04) That's awesome. Yeah. I think that's such an excellent point that, you know, just trying to think about the fact that, yes, in previous generations, there may have been one paradigm shifting kind of change that comes through a lifetime in the way that we work. But in our lifetimes, we've dealt with the Internet coming on board and we've dealt with multiple revolutions since then, mobile and AI. And these things happen. it's such a greater clip that it really does shift even even things like COVID changing, a lot of places working from home previously was always in the office. It seems like change is the constant now and that change is kind of the thing that we need to get good at is being adaptive and able to change. Why do you feel like, I'm just kind of curious of your opinion on this, why do feel like we're so resistant as humans to just change in general? Heather (05:00) I think we have a fear of obsolescence. then in times like right now, I delve into this sometimes in some of my talks, is we're going through some pretty significant division and polarization. It's really acute in the US, but it's happening all over the world. You look at the elections in France and the UK recently. I think it's important to understand how that happened because a lot of people think that's just social media. And technology did come into play, but if you look back in the US anyway in the 70s and 80s, that's when we started to see a real erosion in our social fabric. We started having fewer people over for dinner and being part of fewer fewer clubs, talking to our neighbors less. So we got more and more isolated. And then we had a loneliness epidemic that's been around for at least a decade or so, which, and when you're lonely, your amygdala, the kind of reptilian part of your brain goes into overdrive. So you go into fight or flight mode. So you have a lot of change, isolation, fight or flight mode, and then you throw in social media that kind of catastrophizes things. And we're all in this us versus them mode. And we've stopped seeing, hearing each other. And one of my messages in almost all my talks is we have so much more in common than we have in difference. They show lots of studies from it. So if we just could start talking to each other again, we may not vote for the same candidate. We don't vote for the same teams, but we both love the sport. And that's what we need to get back to is understanding how much we have in common because so much of the work we're going to be doing, especially when technology comes in, is communication, collaboration, exploration. And all of those things require us to relate to each other because you're going to see something that I don't see. And if I only hired people who think like me, it would be tragic because I wouldn't see the entirety of the opportunity. So if you want to really drive profitable growth in your company, you want those diversities of inputs and you want to set a culture that has people see and hear each other so you can see optimally the opportunity space. And because that's what we're going to be doing. It's most of the work we're going be doing. Brian (06:55) Yeah, yeah, this is a fascinating fact to me because I, one of the things I start in your presentation is just this idea about loneliness. And I absolutely agree. You know, there's, I think we all can kind of recognize that even though we've tried to create these social media companies that to try to, you know, get a, gain a stronger sense of connection in some ways it's driven the opposite of this sort of loneliness factor. But I'm curious from from some sort of a sociological perspective, that has, it seems, transferred into our workplace. And I know one of your stats there was about how we feel more lonely at work. And I'm just curious, what do you think is driving that, the kind of sense of loneliness that we have while at Heather (07:48) Yeah, know, some folks will point that to being about where we work. That's not my area of expertise. There plenty of people who look at where we work. That may be a factor for some folks if you're working remotely and you don't see other people, certainly a factor. But what I think what's really happening is we've outsized what work is in our lives. So community used to consist of social interactions, religious affiliations. clubs and groups we belong to, all of those kind of, if you think of them as circles, because everything's visual to me, all those circles shrank and work became bigger. So now part of it's generational change, but more and more people are looking for work to provide their purpose, work to provide most of their relationships, work to fill these. So it's a little bit in terms of how we're interacting with each other that's causing the loneliness, but it's also an outsize expectation we have around work. So now it becomes table stakes for a lot of organizations for work to be my self -expression, work to be my sense of purpose, work to be where I think about my values. And it wasn't like that a few decades ago. Brian (08:49) Yeah. Yeah, that's, I just, I love that point. think you're absolutely hitting the nail on the head with that. And, and, know, just so everyone listening doesn't, doesn't misinterpret this in any way, you know, we're not, we're not saying in any way that those other kinds of organizations like churches or community groups or anything are bad or that you shouldn't see community and those kinds of things. It's just that our society has sort of moved away from those as being the foundational, places where we get community and you're I absolutely agree. is, work has sort of filled that. Sort of analogous, I think, to the way that police have become the front line of our mental health, Heather (09:27) Mental health, yeah, exactly. Exactly, and that's not fair to the police and they're not prepared to do that and, you know, we suffer. I think the point with work is that that is where we are. So if you're leading an organization today, that is a reality. I hope that changes. I'm a big fan of Robert Putnam. He wrote Bullying Alone in the late 90s and he pointed out the sort of phrase we're having in ourselves, of fabric. He had another book that came out in, I think it was 2020 or 2021, in the middle of pandemic where he... which was called the upswing, where he says we go through these kind of, you you think about it like a pendulum, we go through periods of high collectivism, you know, the kind of the eye to the we. And we're at the highest, you know, the lowest level of the we and the highest level of the eye in terms of being isolated and all that we do. And we're primed to go back into a we phase. So I'll be interested to see what forms of community start to emerge because we're primed to have that happen. Soon, like I notice is a, live most of the time in Florida, part of the time in Massachusetts. It's a restaurant I go to in Florida. And I was like, why do we love that restaurant so much? I do like the food. It's very good. But it has a situation that an empty seat is is a, is anywhere you could sit. So if I come in by myself or with one other person, they would sit me at the table with one other person or two or 300 people. It's community seating. So you end up sitting with people that you don't know having conversations. It's kind of like a forced community. It's fantastic. Brian (10:53) Yeah, that's awesome. I love that. I mean, I will say, you know, the introvert part of me is like, I don't want to sit down. Right. Yeah. I identify with that. Yeah. Awesome. Well, so if we have this problem, right, we're dealing with, with a fear of change. We're dealing with a work in place that is lonelier than it's ever been. And we were dealing with a population that's seeking belongings, sinking. Heather (10:59) I'm an introvert too, but when I'm forced, it's good for me. Brian (11:23) connection and community while at work. I think you're right that that has a profound impact on the way we work even. And I know you talked a little bit about just kind of the main drivers of productivity, the main drivers of being successful. And I think that this is maybe counterintuitive to what some people think. Help us, talk us through that a little bit about what you found as far as what really drives productivity. Heather (11:58) Sure, so just to give you a little background on me that relates to this point. So I spent the last, prior to when I started speaking full time, which is about 10 years ago, I spent 10 to 15 years working on the corporate side, industrial design, product design, design strategy, so new innovation stuff. And every organization I went into, I felt people really weren't equipped. to propositionally think. They could reiterate on the existing solutions. If they had a product, they could make another version of that product, but they couldn't jump entirely to a white space and think of something where we didn't have a contextual reference. And then I found myself working in higher ed because I had a mentor who became president of university and he said, I want to create a new college focused on innovation. And I think you understand it better than anybody else. So I built a new college focused on innovation. From those two sides, I saw the supply and the demand side of talent. And what I saw happening, and this is what kind of led to my speaking career, is we're not preparing people to do the kind of work we need people to do. We're hiring people based on past skills and experience degrees. We've now like edged all the way up to skills -based hiring. But what that really is, is hiring somebody who can demonstrate that they can do something you need them to do. What happens when they get there three or four months later and you need them to do something that's never been done before? So we need to prepare more people to do work that's never been done before. And how do you do that? I think you look more at behaviors. And then how do you activate those behaviors? So what you look for in people is some level of skill, but also behaviors that will tell you what they'll do when they don't know what to do. And that is basically what culture is. Culture is collective behaviors. So that's how you screen for people. And then how do you set the conditions to activate those behaviors? What we've done in the past is hire the skills and exert some hustle culture. And that's going to rev the engine of productivity. We did that until we hit burnout and we're still hitting burnout and we're still hitting burnout and unhappiness and disengagement. So we went from hustle culture to going, we need more engagement. we need shared purpose. we need psychological safety. Well, what's behind all of that is we need humans who feel seen and heard. Somebody cares about me. I trust my leader. You set those conditions to people who have agency and they'll activate those behaviors for which you hired them. And so they have some of the skills you need. They're going to have to acquire so many more because you don't know the work they're going to be doing. So we got to focus on what I say is culture and then people who want to build their capacity. Brian (14:29) Yeah, yeah, I love that point. And I think you're absolutely right. I'm kind of so we've been building towards skill based kind of hiring instead of behavior based hiring. And we should be looking more at building people who have the right behaviors to learn and grow and change and adapt. So I'm kind of curious your take on this, because I know that in the past few years, especially, I don't know if you've seen this, think I've noticed this in multiple sections, but there seems to have been sort of this segment of management that has returned a little bit, kind of tried to turn the clock back and gone back to a little bit of Taylorism and kind of the idea of, you you need to push and drive your employees to work harder. And I even see that in some job postings and things about how, you know, there's sort of a rise more traditional project management, is really more based on pushing and driving than enabling. I'm just curious, what's your take? Why do you think that's resurfaced? Heather (15:41) I think we got a lot of fatigue coming out of COVID. I remember us doing the sort of the press tour and everything for the Empty Advantage last spring. one, I was talking to a group of CEOs and they said to me, you know what, we're just tired of caring. And because they were being honest with me. And I said, well, explain to what you mean. And they said, well, I get it. We have to be empathetic and we have to feel bad for people and expect less of them. And I said, there's compassion and you should have that instances. And there's empathy and they are not the same thing. When I'm talking about empathy, it's about understanding the people that you're hiring and what motivates them so you can help them become what I call self -propelled. Because you cannot get people to learn and adapt at the speed, scale and scope we're gonna need through just extrinsic pressure. And there's a return to that right now. I think it's some COVID fatigue of just, you know, exhausted because people did have to care a lot for their people. But you know what, we had higher levels We had higher levels of engagement. had higher levels of productivity at the height of the pandemic because we were caring. And that was a little care fatigue. so the care fatigue hits a little economic uncertainty. We've been waiting for a recession. Inflation's been sticky. It's harder to run your business tomorrow than it was yesterday. Again, all those things. But a return to kind of the beatings will continue until the morale improves has never worked. But there is certainly a push to try that now. And I get But you're not going to get the performance out of people that way. just don't believe it. A very small percentage of people that works on most of us work best when we feel like we can trust our boss. We have agency. We have high expectations. I mean, all the studies that I've seen, the best jobs people had with the highest level of performance were when they challenged themselves, they had respect, they had autonomy, and they had agency. Brian (17:33) Yeah, yeah, absolutely agree. It just, it fascinated me when I saw that kind of return and rear its ugly head again and think, and my thought was, we've tried this, you know, like this is, it's not that this hasn't been tested and tried, we've run this experiment and it failed and we've progressed into this new era. And I think sometimes there's a leadership kind of misunderstanding that we're just trying to be nice. Like people just want us to be nice. And it's just about being kind of more friendly and kind. And that's what all these management consultants want us to be. there's a purpose behind it. It's because it works. It's not because it just makes you a better person, though it does. But it actually is better for your business to do Heather (18:21) Yeah, I think what happened is we had such a long stretch of Taylorism that we presume that that is the model that works. had four years of caring and we had good performance. And that gets sort of conflated with where we work, which I think is a completely separate thing. I think we've got to return to, not return to, we've got to go forward and to say, what did we learn in those four years? What are the things that really worked? How did we really better performance out of people. Because at the end of the day, it's what you're to do. It's why you run your organization. We are in a capitalist society. You're going to run your organization getting the highest level of performance. Highest level of performance and productivity is getting the highest level of performance out of your people. Highest level of performance out of your people comes when you trust them, they have agency, you hire for the right behaviors, you set the right conditions, and you encourage them to do things they never thought they could do. And that's what comes out of all the studies. Brian (19:11) Yeah. Yeah. And I know you, you, you drawn kind of this, this really interesting connection, I think between performance and, and mental health and sort of the idea of, you know, that we, again, building on what we've said, right? If our organizations are where we're seeking community and we're feeling lonely, then that this does impact how we work. so it shouldn't be that far of a leap for people to understand how, Hey, if, if, our work environments are damaging people's mental health, that directly impacts performance. Heather (19:47) Yeah, and you just look at the studies like, know, the companies that are ranked best places to work, they're ranked best places to work by the employees, because the employees are happy there. And you know what? Their performance is something like 16 % higher than the companies that are on the list. So it's pretty clear. You're getting the performance when people are happy, not you're going to get the performance. You're going to be happy when you get the performance. It's the other way around. We're looking at it backwards. Brian (20:12) Yeah, I agree. And one of the stats that jumped out at me in your presentation was this stat about how big of a role your direct manager or leader has on your mental health, just in general and overall in life. So tell us a little bit about Heather (20:32) Yeah, there were three different studies I think I cited in the piece you're talking about. First, the employer has a greater influence on your mental health than your spouse, partner, or therapist if you have one. Brian (20:46) That's so, I just got a full stop there. Like that is so amazing to me. Your boss has more impact on your mental health than your spouse. That just blows my mind, sorry. Heather (20:57) And the greatest source of stress in your life is your job. And then there was another study, which I thought was fascinating, and it was looking at lower paid workers generally not highly educated. The relationship, this was a longitudinal study, and it was only like four or 500 people, but they looked at your relationship with your direct supervisor. If your direct supervisor treated you with respect, gave you agency, gave you autonomy, you trusted them, you went home and raised your children such that they had higher levels of economic, social, and financial success. So not only is your boss influencing your life, you're influencing the next generation and thereby the next workforce. So there's a lot more we should be doing preparing these leaders for having this what is now an awesome responsibility. It's a really profound responsibility. And it's because I think work has become so outsized in our lives. And it's going to be. It's going to continue to be. Brian (21:58) Yeah. Yeah. So no pressure, leaders, right? I mean, no pressure on the fact that not only are you concerned with your business and your employees, but the future generation of workers. Right. Heather (22:09) And we need to help those leaders. We need to help them put on a gas mask before they try to help anybody else. Brian (22:14) Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So, you know, we're in this, first of all, I think this is this huge dichotomy of, you know, as we said, we're in the age of people feeling lonely at work. While when we look at our process kind of evolution, we're in a teaming phase of process. We value, especially here, you know, an Agilist and people who practice Scrum. We're all about teamwork. It's all about working together as a team. So I'm curious, kind of your take on that. Why do you feel like we still have this sense of loneliness, even though we're trying to move more and more of our process towards being collaborative and team -based? Heather (22:58) I think we forgot to know how to connect to each other. And we can't get it all from work, but since we're looking to get so much of it from work, we need to figure it out there. I mean, how many, you know, they found these studies that, you know, you're happier at work if you have a best friend at work. It used to be that people met their spouse or partner through church work, or I can't remember the third one. Now it's mostly online. So even though we're in work, we're not. forming our social circles around work as much anymore. And it's not really, because this started long before the pandemic, so it's not just that we're working remotely and that's why our social circles aren't happening there. I think we forgot how to connect with each other. We forgot to say, how are you and mean it, instead of just waiting for fine. We forgot to have conversations that had something other than to do than what we're doing. We just forgot how to be human and have meaningful connections. And I think when you start having conversations with people about that, like I was just in Prague last month for a talk, and there was another speaker. And we connected beforehand, we sort of knew each other, and his talk was on human connection, my talk was on the future work as human, because all my talks are bespoke to the audience and what they need. And so we coordinated our two talks. And then while I was there, in his talk, he talked about how both of his parents died suddenly, within like three months of each other. And it was a really impactful part of his talk and an impactful part of the most important conversations you have in his life, in your life, et cetera. And then when I was in Prague, I got a call that said my father was dying and I had to leave. And I messaged him. And now we message each other every single day to check in with each other. It was a catalyst for a human connection you don't normally have when you share a stage with someone for five minutes. But I'm noticing more and more that people are trying to do They're trying to make more meaningful and lasting connections that are, you know, we talk about speaking, but really we talk about how are you? What are you going through? How's your breathing going today? What do you have on store for the weekend? And I've done that with a number of speakers who've become close friends. And I think more and more folks need to be, feel comfortable just reaching out and doing that and having a real connection with folks that doesn't have to do with a product that's due or a deadline or a financial goal or what have you, but has to do with. What we all want is humans, which is ultimately connection. Brian (25:14) Yeah, boy, I can't agree more. Well, we're getting towards the end of our time. before we wrap, one thing I wanted to ask is, we have listeners here that are leaders. We have listeners that are involved in Scrum teams. We may have some Scrum masters and product owners that are listening. And they're hearing this, probably agreeing a lot with what they're hearing from you. So my question for you then is if you were to talk to that group, if there were some advice you could give them, tips you could give them to better prepare them for the future of work, for where we're headed, what kind of advice would you give people currently working on Teams? Heather (26:02) I think the most important thing to figure out, and some people take a lifetime doing it, some people are born doing it, is what do you really care about? What kind of impact do you want to have on the world? How do you like to work? What kind of problems do you like to work on or find or frame? Where do you like to work in the process? Because more self -awareness you have about what really drives you, because that's really your fuel source, the better you're going to be in whatever you do. We tend to tell people, funnel people into careers based on what they're told they're good at, or more likely what they're told they're not good instead of focusing on what gives them energy. Because if we're going to have to learn and adapt, and we are, then we ought to be learning adapting around something we're intrinsically motivated to do. Brian (26:46) That's awesome. Yeah, I agree. It sounds very close to, you know, Simon Sinek's kind of find your why basis there of just, you know, that being so important in what drives us. So couldn't agree more. That's that's awesome. Well, I want to be respectful of your time and our listeners time. So, Heather, I can't thank you enough. Every time I hear you talk, I feel like I've taken another leap and have more stuff to go research and and study based off of it. So. Heather (26:53) Sure. Brian (27:15) Thank you so much for taking some time here to talk with us on the podcast. Heather (27:19) Thank you. And I just want to close with one thing because I'm a belligerent optimist. So we have some hard problems ahead of us. We've got division, we've got technology, et cetera. But we have done more in one human lifetime to improve the human condition than all of human history. We've more people out of poverty. We've almost solved literacy. We've connected the globe. It's time for us, in the words of JFK, take longer strides and do hard things. We are up to and we are more than capable of this. So I'm really optimistic about the future that's ahead of us. I think we just have to face some of our challenges. So thank you very much for having me. Brian (27:53) Amen, amen. All right. Thanks so much, Heather. I appreciate you coming on. Heather (27:58) Thanks a lot for having me. Take care.

Explore the hidden barriers to successful Scrum adoption as Brian Milner and Lucy O'Keefe dive into organizational dysfunctions and cultural impediments in this insightful episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner sits down with Lucy O’Keefe to unpack the organizational dysfunctions highlighted in their talk at the Scrum Gathering. They delve into how culture can significantly hinder Scrum adoption and discuss other common impediments like resistance to change, command and control leadership, and siloed teams. Emphasizing the importance of transparency, inspection, and adaptation, Brian and Lucy offer actionable insights to help organizations overcome these challenges. Listeners will also learn why leadership understanding and stakeholder participation are crucial for successful Agile adoption and the necessity of training in Agile values and principles for true organizational change. References and resources mentioned in the show: Lucy O’Keefe Dart Frog Consulting Path to CTC - Monthly Cohorts #109 Leadership and Culture in DevOps with Claire Clark Agile for Leaders Join the Agile Mentors Community Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lucy O'Keefe has over 28 years of IT experience and has worn multiple hats in the Agile world - developer, Product Owner, Scrum Master, and now, Certified Scrum Trainer® (CST) where she uses her experience to ensure each student has a great training experience. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner, and we have a favorite back with us today. We have Ms. Lucy O 'Keefe with us. Welcome in Lucy. Lucy O'Keefe (00:12) Thank you so much, Brian. Happy to be here again. Brian (00:14) Very happy to have Lucy back with us. Lucy and I saw each other recently. Actually, I think it was the first time we saw each other in person, right? Yeah. We finally saw each other in person at the Scrum Gathering that took place recently in New Orleans. And I had the pleasure of getting to see Lucy's talk that she had there at the Scrum Gathering. And... Lucy O'Keefe (00:22) It was the first time, yep. Finally. Brian (00:41) She gave a talk with Joe Miller called, Scrum Unmasked, Unveiling the Dysfunctions Within Our Organizations. And I thought it would be a good opportunity to bring Lucy back and talk a little bit about this topic, because this is an important topic. And it was a packed room, it was full of people that wanted to know about this as well. So I thought it'd be a good chance for us to share this with the audience. But to start this, actually, before I even begin, I get ahead of myself. myself here a little bit. For those who maybe haven't heard Lucy on the podcast before, Lucy is a CST. She has a CTC. Her company is called Dart Frog Consulting. And she also has started recently this mentoring program with a new smally that is kind of a really interesting concept. It's a CTC mentoring cohort. So if that's something you're interested in, We'll put links into our show notes that you can get in contact with her about that. But if you're interested in pursuing certified team coach certification with the Scrum Alliance, that's a really great way to do that. You get a group of people around it and kind of go on that journey together. But let's talk about this topic. And I thought a good way to start was actually to be a little bit meta about this. I want to go behind the scenes a little bit. and think about where this topic came from, what's the genesis of where this came from and how you and Joe hooked up on this. So give us a little bit of the backstory of where this idea came from. Lucy O'Keefe (02:20) So to start, Joe and I have worked together. We worked at a consulting firm together. And funny enough, we actually were both speakers at a virtual conference a few years ago. He was on the panel and I was an actual speaker, but we never met. Back then we met actually when we started working in the same consulting firm. And of course I left the consulting firm a few years ago to go independent, but we just kept in touch and we always wanted to do something together. so when, when I was trying to figure out topics for the scrum gathering in New Orleans, I reached out to him and I asked if he would want to do a talk with me. A lot of times it's much easier to do it with somebody else. And I thought it would be fun because he and I see eye to eye on a lot of stuff. And I think we, we complement each other pretty well. But when we were talking about what topics we'd want to talk about, I kind of always go back to the things that I've experienced when I've been in organizations. And I think, I think a lot of us have experienced kind of something, something similar where people are going to say, scrum just doesn't work for us. Right. I actually, it was actually one of my first blogs that I wrote probably six, seven years ago was about that, about people saying, it just doesn't work for us. There, you know, it's not something that we can do. So I kind of got this idea that this is what we should be talking about. And I always go back to. Ken Trebers quote, and I said this during the talk, you may recall, you know, scrum is like your mother -in -law, it points out all your faults. So this idea that scrum is holding up this mirror, you know, to the organization is something that I always talk about. And I think it's important for scrum masters and others in organizations to understand that, no, it's not scrum that's the issue. It's that we have all this stuff that's not, going well in our organizations and we're just putting Scrum on top of it without fixing the issues, right? So we're trying to put a band -aid on what's going on in our organization instead of looking at the root cause. So I just thought that that would be a great topic to talk about. Brian (04:27) I love that. And I think that's a great way to look at it because you're right. It's not something that's going to fix everything, but it does make it very revealing. I remember the phrase I've always heard people use is it's not a silver bullet, it's a silver mirror. You know, like it's going to reflect back very honestly to you what's going on. Awesome. Well, that's that. Thank you for the backstory. I really appreciate that because I know a lot of people, you know, if you're listening to this, you may be considering, you know, do I want to submit and try to speak at a conference? So. Lucy O'Keefe (04:41) Yep. Brian (04:57) just to give a little background to where those kind of ideas come from. I thought that would be interesting little sideline there. So let's get into our topic. Let's talk about some of these dysfunctions because I know the main point of this was talking about organizational dysfunctions, kind of some common problem. So hit us up. Give us a few of these big organizational dysfunctions that you guys talked about. Lucy O'Keefe (05:22) So I think the main one and one that's probably going to resonate with a lot of people is culture. For me, culture is always the biggest issue. People are the biggest issue, right? You know, as you know, you probably remember this, right? In the previous Scrum guide, it would say, Scrum is simple to understand, but difficult to master, right? Or difficult to implement because it involves people. So culture is the biggest issue and culture encompasses... quite a few things, right? It could be resistance to change within an organization. It could be a lack of empowerment. It could be command and control, which I'm sure you've seen in plenty of organizations. I've seen plenty of organizations, even though we know that we are hiring the best people, a lot of leaders or managers actually I'll call them, you know, still want to be in control, still want to be the people telling people what to do. And it's very hard to go to... to a way of working where it's like, okay, I need to remove myself from the equation and trust that these people are gonna do what they should be doing. So I think culture encompasses a lot of the other things that we talk about when we're talking about organizational impediments. Another thing is organizational structure. Are we highly hierarchical? Are we a matrixed organization? Do we still have these silo teams, right? That work on just specific skills? And I'm sure you've seen this. I'm sure you've worked in waterfall just like I have in the past, right? You have your business analysts on one side. You have your designers on another side and then your developers and then your testers, right? And they're all reporting into a business analyst or tester or developer or anything like that. So there is no cohesive team that has one. focus or one objective. You know, we're matric, you know, getting these people out of that matrix and putting them into a team. But they're all just interested in their own thing, right? It's a very siloed way of working. So it's very hard to make that transition into, okay, we are a product team and we work together. And we have to be dedicated and stable. Because we're not used to seeing that in a lot of organizations, people are not dedicated to teams. And we're talking about waterfall. I have barely seen any of that. I used to have a team where, and there was already a scrum team, but we had three BAs on the team and they were each 33%. And that's something that is very normal. And even when I'm teaching my classes and I'm sure you have the same questions or comments, a lot of people are like, well, this is very hard for us because we have John Doe here who, you know, he's in five different teams. How is he going to go to all these events? So that's definitely another organizational impediment, which for me kind of goes back to culture as well. Right? So those things are big things. Leadership not understanding. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, no, go ahead. Brian (08:10) Yes. Yeah. I was thinking, I was thinking, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I was just, I was thinking the same thing that when you said that, that just, yeah, it is very, the hierarchy of the organization is very cultural. And if you, you know, if we're, we're trying to empower teams and instill in them this idea that, Hey, you need to, in order to move fast, you've got to have autonomy and you've got to have the ability to go and make decisions. that's, that's very. much ingrained in how we structure our organization. If I have to get approval for everything I do, that's going to run counter to what we're trying to do in a Scrum environment. So I love that you made that connection. I absolutely agree with you. It's a very cultural thing. Lucy O'Keefe (08:59) It is, it is. Yeah. And as I said before, I think a lot of the impediments we see go back to culture, leadership, understanding leadership participation, a lot of organizations when they're thinking about agile, they're thinking about scrum. It's like, okay, the teams need to do that. All right. Let's, let's start in IT and our IT teams are going to start doing scrum and who cares about the rest of the organization. We're going to keep thinking the way that, that we've always been thinking. We're going to keep budgeting the way we've always budgeted. And then we have. We have a lot more resistance, a lot more conflict because we have a team that's trying to work in a certain way. And then you have stakeholders and leadership that are expecting things to be the way that they always were. So stakeholder participation, for example, you know, a lot of stakeholders are going to be like, well, I already told you what I want. Why are you coming to me every two weeks or, you know, however long our sprints are, you know, for to get feedback. You know what I want. I shouldn't have to talk to you about it. Right. So there's that lack of understanding of what's in it for them. So back to culture again, right, understanding that this is a whole cultural shift. It's not just a team shift. So leadership needs to understand that. And of course, as you know, you know, we have, you know, certified agile leadership programs that I'm trying not trying to do a plug here for those classes. I don't even teach them. But. Brian (10:03) Yeah. Ha ha ha. Lucy O'Keefe (10:22) it's so important that leadership understands what it means to be an agile organization and what it means to lead in an agile organization. And I think when they do that, when they're able to get that understanding, it's going to make it a lot easier for everybody to succeed. So once again, that is another big impediment that I've seen is the lack of leadership and stakeholder understanding. Brian (10:46) Yeah, absolutely agree. I mean, it's almost like the concept seems to be more, like you said, we'll start from the team and build up when really it should be more of a from a top down or even not even kind of whole, right. Right, it's kind of, it's a whole organization thing. And if we try to compartmentalize it and say, no, we're just gonna do this group. Lucy O'Keefe (10:57) up and down. Or even from both extremes and meet in the middle. Right? Yeah. Brian (11:13) then we're already kind of setting ourselves up to fail a little bit because I can't change the culture of just one segment of my organization. If I do that and they have a different culture than the rest of the organization, then we have cultures at odds with each other and they're set to fail. The more dominant one's gonna overtake the lesser one, which is usually gonna be the scrum side of things. So yeah, I completely agree. Yeah, yeah, frustration. Lucy O'Keefe (11:37) Exactly. Yeah. And it causes a lot of frustration. Yeah. It causes a lot of frustration for the team. Right. So I was actually at a, I was contracting at an agricultural manufacturing company. I may have brought this up before, but like the, the stakeholders didn't understand why they had to come to sprint and review, why, why they had to talk to the product owner instead of just talking to the engineers themselves. And it wasn't until I had. the lunch and learn with the stakeholders and help them understand what's in it for them because that's what's so important. How am I going to, how is it going to improve things for me if I abide by what you're trying to do? It wasn't until we did that, that they were like, I understand now why I need to talk to the product owner. I understand now why I shouldn't be dealing with the developers or the engineers themselves. I understand now why my feedback's needed. Yeah, it's great that now I have a say in the process. I have a say in the outcome. So it's not like people are trying to just be difficult. They just don't know any better, which brings us to one of the other organizational impediments, which is lack of training and understanding. Cause we can't just train the team. We have to, yeah, I mean, we don't have to train everyone in, you know, a CSM or anything like that. That's, that's not it. Right. But they need to understand the basics of how, how agile works. What are the values? What are the principles? What, what are the benefits of working in this manner? Right. It's, it's not about doing the thing, but it's how is this going to impact who is and how, how are things going to be better after you start working this way? Brian (12:52) Yeah. I've had a lot of conversations about this in the CSM class of just talking to different people and saying, you look at these agile manifesto values and principles and if we can't get an alignment on these things, right? If we can't look at these things and say, yeah, I agree. My philosophy is one of that's responding to change over following a plan. I believe that you should be more. able to respond to change, then you should be about following a plan. That's a fundamental kind of core value. And if my organization or if leaders in my organization, that's kind of the key here, right? If the leaders in the organization think, no, no, no, it's about following the plan. We have to establish this amazing plan and then follow the plan. Well, it doesn't really matter what we do at the team level because... somewhere up the chain of command, we're going to have to have that perfect plan that we try to execute on and the leadership is driving that. So we have a mismatch on just our core kind of understanding. Lucy O'Keefe (14:26) Exactly, exactly. So when I go into a new organization, one of the first things I do during my assessment phase, I actually go through every single one of the values and principles with leadership and with the teams. And I ask, which one of these are you doing well? And then we talk about that it's the minority usually. And then it's like, okay, what do we need to do to ensure that we are responding to change or following a plan or that we are... you know, focusing on working software instead of measuring something different. So we go through every single one of those because, as you said, that's where the value is. Understanding those values and principles, it's not about doing scrum, kanban, whatever it is. But if we are following those values and principles, then that's when we're truly going to be algebra and that's when we're going to see the benefits of working in this manner. It's not about the practice, but it's about your beliefs as an organization. Brian (15:24) Yeah, yeah, there's no practice that we're gonna put in place that's gonna solve it all, right? I mean, there's practices that can assist and help us, but the practice isn't the cure, right? The practice is just something that can assist. It's like having crutches, you know? The crutches aren't gonna heal you. Lucy O'Keefe (15:30) Not at all. A way to get there. Yeah. Exactly. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The practice just a vehicle, but you have to do the work to get there for sure. Brian (15:51) Yeah, that's a great point. Lucy O'Keefe (15:53) Yeah, so I think those were the main ones that we talked about there. You know, of course, we only had an hour, so it wasn't, there wasn't a lot of time to talk about every single one. But I think that, you know, and you were there, of course, but a lot of people came up with their own impediments that they were seeing in their organizations. And I think a lot of them aligned to what we had to say as well, because I think it is pretty standard in organizations that are just starting out. Brian (16:02) Sure. Yeah. Lucy O'Keefe (16:22) that you are seeing a lot. I mean, not just starting out actually. I mean, I've seen an organization that they say they've been agile for years and they still have a lot of these issues. So it's pretty clear that the culture again is the biggest issue with being able to adopt Scrum correctly or adopt an agile way of working correctly. Brian (16:43) Yeah, and I think you hit the nail on the head with the fact that it's just, there's not the time always spent to try to get to the root cause. We're a culture of quick fixes. We want to find something that's going to put in place and take this pill, do whatever, and then it's just going to be solved and everything's going to be fine. But you know, it... For instance, we've used this analogy quite often, the idea of weight loss. There are things that can assist you with that. There are things that can give you help along the way, but there's not a silver bullet to do that other than changing the way that your lifestyle is. You have to change. And please, anyone who's listening, don't think I'm saying this because I have this perfect, because I don't. I'm very bad at this. But I know that the way that I change You know, my overall health is by changing the lifestyle, changing what I eat, changing, you know, my exercise patterns. And that's hard work. It's hard to change that kind of core value in my life, but that's what actually makes the impact. The other things are dressing around it. Right. Lucy O'Keefe (17:58) Yeah, that's what's gonna make you change. Exactly. I mean, think about people who go for, and just staying with the same topic, right? For some bariatric surgery, right? So a lot of times, like the doctor will say, I used to watch my 600 pound life, don't judge me, a little bit, just because it's kind of, it's interesting. And yeah, I mean, they'd have to lose weight before they had the surgery. Brian (18:06) Yeah, yeah. Hahaha. Lucy O'Keefe (18:25) And the majority of people after they had the surgery and kind of lost weight, they just went back and balloon back up because they didn't change their lifestyle. So as you said, yeah, it's great that these band -aids exist, but if you're not going to do the work yourself, then it's really not going to work. So what is the root cause in this case, right? We're eating badly and we're not exercising. So that's what we need to change and not just, you know, take a pill or do a fad diet or get a surgery that... It's not gonna work if we don't change our ways. Brian (18:55) Right, and just for the listeners too, I mean, Lucy and I are not medical professionals in any way. So, you know, we do not mean in any way to try to belittle, you know, treatments and therapies that people use for legitimate purposes and all that stuff. Please understand, right? Gotta make that disclaimer. But I think you're right. You know, like I know in my life, there's been times when I thought, there's some diet supplement or there's something else that, you know, is gonna... Lucy O'Keefe (19:01) No. No, no, no. Brian (19:25) be the thing that really cures this and changes it. But what I've experienced time after time is, no, you really just got to do the hard work. You got to go to the gym and you got to get up and you got to change what you eat and that kind of stuff. And that's what really makes the impact. Well, the same thing here with our organizations. There are practices and the things we can put in place. And there's always hot ones that will be the hot one of the day. I remember when DevOps was kind of the... And we just talked about DevOps in our last episode. It is an important thing. It is a very important thing, and it can give you a lot of boost. But it's a set of practices. And our last guest, when we talked about this, talked about how it's really more of a mindset. It really is more about how we have to change the way we see things. So even there, when we approach things like DevOps, yes, there are practices, there are tools we can put in place. But if we don't change kind of our approach to how we do things, then it won't matter. It's just another thing that we have to learn and put into the workflow. Lucy O'Keefe (20:32) Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, the definition of insanity, right? Doing the same thing over and over and over again and getting the same results because that's what happens if you just keep putting band -aids on things, you're going to end up, you know, encountering the same issues over and over again. So if we don't have that mindset that we are going to make the change and the foundational change to ensure that everything works out, then, you know, then it's we're going to keep having the same issues and we're going to keep hearing this crime just doesn't work for us. Right. Brian (20:37) Ha ha ha. Lucy O'Keefe (21:02) So, yeah. Brian (21:04) There's something that also comes up in classes sometimes that I think one of the things that I found is that getting back to that transparency inspection adaptation, that if we as an organization really value that process and value the idea that, hey, we're going to be transparent about how we do things. We're going to not just ignore when there's a problem, but we're going to inspect it and get to the root cause. And then we're going to find a new way of doing things. that we can just latch onto that. That's a huge cultural change, right? And just kind of buying into those concepts. And what I found is in a lot of instances, I talked about this in the ACSM, a lot of instances, you can directly relate it back to a lack of one of those three things. Are we not being transparent? Are we not actually inspecting? Are we not actually adapting? Lucy O'Keefe (21:57) Yeah, yeah, yeah, those three pillars are definitely important. And I think that they're the foundation of what we are trying to do. And you're right, if we're not being transparent, inspecting and adapting, then we're not being agile, first of all, but that's something that needs to exist throughout the organization, not just within our work, within our teams, but are we being transparent in our relationships? Are we inspecting and adapting how we are dealing with our employees? Are we inspecting and adapting how we are budgeting? I mean, everything, right? We need to be... using that empiricism on a daily basis to ensure that we are headed in that direction. And if we do that, as you just said, the culture will shift organically when we're employing those three pillars, for sure. Brian (22:42) Yeah, absolutely agree. Well, let's, I want to meta this a little bit more here at the end, because I want to know kind of how it, how the fallout from this happened. So, so you, you have this idea, you work with Joe, you, you come up with this topic, you go, you present this. What kind of a follow -up did you get from this? Did you get a lot of good questions from people afterwards? How did the talk go? What did you, what, what, what kind of learnings did you take away from it after you gave the talk? Lucy O'Keefe (22:47) Yep. So I think it was received very well. There were quite a few people that came up to us afterwards and started asking questions to the point that I was actually late to a meeting after that. But anyway, I've had quite a few people reach out to me on LinkedIn, you know, talking about, we really loved your topic. And I actually, I got my reviews from it. And I think a lot of people appreciated that we had action items at the end. Brian (23:22) Hahaha. Lucy O'Keefe (23:38) So for those of you who are listening, we actually had an action plan where people could create an action plan on how they are going to start dealing with the organizational impediments in their organization. So a few people appreciated that. So it was pretty good, you know, pretty good feedback, I think, that we got from that. I would have loved for it to have been a little longer, so we could have gone a little deeper because it is, there is a lot that we can unpack. when we're talking about organizational impediments, one hour just isn't enough time for that, especially when you're trying to make it a more engaging session and not just talking at people. But I think if I had to do this again, I would probably try to do a little less and maybe go a little deeper instead of trying to talk about maybe so many things and barely touching the surface. But I think it was... Brian (24:28) Yeah. Lucy O'Keefe (24:36) I think it was pretty good. I know you're there, so you let me know. Brian (24:38) It was great. Yeah, no, it was great. And so, yeah, I hope you're encouraged by that. But yeah, it was a great talk. And like I said, I heard a lot of good comments from people afterwards. And I think that's pretty natural for us as speakers to kind of rethink afterward and say, maybe I could have done this a little bit different or I could have done this a different way. But, you know, it's tough. Like you said, you've got an hour. And within that hour, you're trying to work in some... interactivity, so it's not just you talking the whole time and you're trying to keep the group engaged. But then you get a lot of information and you just, I got to share all this stuff and I only have an hour to do it. Especially, as CSTs, we're used to talking for two days at a time. So, yeah, an hour is like, you know. Lucy O'Keefe (25:26) Exactly. So an hour is nothing. Yeah. Yeah. Brian (25:32) the break or something, but yeah, you're not used to trying to fit all that information down into a one hour stretch. Lucy O'Keefe (25:40) Yeah, and for me it's like I love answering questions. Like if I could do a talk and then do an hour of just answering questions, I think I'd be like really, really happy because I mean, even when I've, you know, taught with Mountain Goat and all that, you know, being able to answer questions at the end of class, that's like my favorite and I do that in my classes as well. So not being able to give time to actually answer, you know, Brian (25:47) Yeah. Lucy O'Keefe (26:04) questions from the people who are having the issues for me was very difficult not being able to do that because that's something that I enjoy. And, you know, but at the end of the day, I do love speaking. You know, I just, it's one of my passions now, which is kind of funny because I used to be really introverted. But yeah, I think, I know it was a really good experience. It was my first time speaking at the Scrum Gallery. I've spoken at smaller conferences before, but that was my first big one. So it was, it was great. Brian (26:19) Ha ha. Awesome. Lucy O'Keefe (26:34) I hope I'm able to do it again. Brian (26:36) Awesome. Well, it was great. It was a great talk. And I appreciate you coming on and sharing this information with us, because not everyone can come to the Scrum Gathering. And that's one of the reasons why we try to have some people come on that do speak at it, so we can share some of that information in these small little podcast windows. So. Well, Lucy, thank you again for coming on. I appreciate you sharing your talk with us and kind of the behind the scenes of it. And hopefully we can have you on again soon. Lucy O'Keefe (27:11) Thank you, Brian.

Join Brian as he chats with DevOps expert Claire Clark about the cultural and mindset shifts needed for successful DevOps adoption, the concept of 'shift left,' and the crucial role of leadership support. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian and Claire Clark, founder of Sienso, winner of the The Great British Business Woman Award, and freelance software development executive, delve into the world of DevOps. Claire explains that DevOps is far more than just tools and processes—it's about fostering the right mindset and cultural shifts within the team. They discuss the 'shift left' approach, emphasizing the importance of considering end stages of software development early on. Claire highlights the critical role of leadership in supporting DevOps principles and aligning team goals. She also shares strategies for measuring success through a maturity matrix and underscores the importance of continuous improvement. This conversation provides a holistic view of DevOps, integrating both technical and cultural aspects. References and resources mentioned in the show: Claire Clark Sienso #108 Adaptive Organizations with Ken Rickard Mountain Goat Software’s Working on a Scrum Team Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Claire Clark is a multi-award-winning transformational leader and Chartered Engineer with over 20 years of experience in Software Engineering. Specializing in leading high-performing teams, Agile transformation, and DevOps, Claire has successfully managed complex projects across various industries, including cybersecurity, logistics, and financial services. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We are back for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. And today we have a very special guest with us, someone I've been trying to get on for a while. We have Ms. Claire Clark with us. Welcome in, Claire. Glad you're here. Claire has been in our world for a while here at Mountain Goat. And she's had lots of interactions with us and Mike and over the years. Claire Clark (00:13) Hi, hi, good to meet you. Brian (00:29) And just for people who aren't familiar with Claire and her work, she is, I guess the best way to describe it is kind of a freelance software development executive. She kind of comes in in high level, kind of more temporary positions, would you say, Claire? Okay. Yeah, kind of coming in on the spot positions to help get people over the hump and get them situated and set up the way they need to be from an executive level. Claire Clark (00:44) Yeah. Yeah. Brian (00:56) Her company is called Cienso and she's won numerous awards over the years, but most recently she had a really huge honor. She was the winner in the engineering category of the Great British Businesswoman Awards. So first of all, congratulations on that. That's awesome. And the reason that we wanted to have Claire on was... Claire Clark (01:15) Thank you. Brian (01:22) just to share a little bit of her knowledge with us, and particularly the area of DevOps. She's done a lot of work with teams and building the teams. And we've had some really interesting discussions offline about this area. So let's start and just set the table a little bit here, Claire, for everyone. When we're talking about DevOps, first of all, let's just kind of explain what that means for people who aren't familiar with it. Claire Clark (01:47) Yeah. So I tend to describe it as it's a way that teams collaborate for the continuous delivery of a product from end to end, to get the value of the product to a customer. So it, it's not a specific process, a specific tool. It's a little bit around the mindset and approach to things. And how you get that continuous development and delivery of a software product, for example, to a customer. So yeah, I think people often tend to see it as possibly it's a tool thing or it's a process thing. And it's not quite that, it's all elements of that and a mindset side of it as well. Brian (02:42) Awesome. Yeah. That was the thing that I found really interesting in our conversation. And some of the things I've seen you write about this online, it's just the concept here that DevOps is really kind of a mindset. It's kind of a cultural thing. It's kind of culture first. And a lot of times we think of this as a set of practices. So let's get into that a little bit. How does the adoption of DevOps kind of change the culture? Claire Clark (03:03) Yeah. Brian (03:11) in an organization. Claire Clark (03:12) Yeah, I think in terms of changing the culture, it taps quite a lot into the agile side of culture, I guess, in that it promotes that collaboration and the continuous delivery of an integration of software, of a software product to a customer. So what I found is that, for example, with agile, That brought together a big collaboration with development and test and your product function. And then the DevOps kind of movement, I'll call it, sort of come to life a bit more. And that's where it then changed the culture again in terms of extending, I guess, the kind of agile side of things, but embedding the continuous integration and delivery into what the software engineering team does. So the operational aspects of the software. become more forefront into the, into like the team's thinking. They become like shift left. Do you think about this earlier? How are you going to maintain and deploy systems and how are they going to integrate? And I think that's where it's really shifted the culture quite a lot where instead of it being the, you know, we create, create the software and now there's an operational aspect of how we then deploy and integrate some of the dev op development and test aspects. into that. So I feel like it's really got into the mind, a lot of people's minds that we need to think of the full end to end when we're talking about building and delivering a product. It's everything and it's how you can make that pipeline that chain through that development team more of a continuous approach. So teams that have succeeded with Agile tend to be able to approach. embedding that DevOps mindset that bit more because there's a lot of overlap between some of the principles and the mindset needed between the two. So. Brian (05:16) Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. And you mentioned a term there that I've always loved in the DevOps community. And just in case people there aren't familiar with it, when you talk about shift left, what does that mean to you? What do you mean by shift left? Claire Clark (05:32) So for me, it means if you took a typical software development lifecycle and there's requirements, development and test and so on, it's very sequential and it typically follows the order. And what the mindset brings with DevOps and shift left, and you see this a lot with testing the term shift left is think about the latter stages up front. So the more you can think about some of those end, stages of software development and deployment and integration to customer systems, the more you think about them upfront, the more you start to design the way of working in what you're doing through agile and your continuous approaches, you start to embed that earlier. So it becomes a thought right at the front instead of being an add -on at the end. So shift left in essence being... what normally you would have done in a sequential manner and ends up far down the chain, you start trying to identify how could we do, how could we bring this earlier? What, you know, you start thinking about earlier, start looking at the practices and tooling and all those processes that people are doing in the software team. You start then to identify that can change the test, your test and your design. That can change then what you've. product functionality and non -functional requirements need to be. It's always about making sure that them later stages, what traditionally were later, are thought about upfront at the start, designed, planned in, and continuous efforts all the way along the software development lifecycle to embed them. So it becomes an easier stream from end to end and more automated and more, I guess, more constant flow through the system. So yeah, shift left is think about the end at the start as much as you can. Brian (07:37) I love that. Think about the end of the start. Yeah, that's a great way to phrase it. I love that. So when you we've talked about kind of the mindset behind this, the culture behind it. So when you when you come in and work with a new group, do you start with kind of a more culture approach and work on mindset first or you kind of go right into practices and let it kind of flow along the way? How do you approach that kind of shift when you start to work with a new New team. Claire Clark (08:07) Yeah, it's interesting because it's the balance because when you're introducing any of these practices, it means typically it would mean there's some form of change for a team and change itself is difficult for people to go through at times. And in terms of embedding some of the success of the frameworks and the processes, you can only really succeed if people are coming at that with the right mindset. because otherwise you can get people who say, I don't want to change. I don't understand why I need to change. So you can explain the kind of value in why to do some of these things. But fundamentally, what underpins that in all of this is a mindset. And in Agile, I've talked before on some presentations about how important an Agile mindset is. So being able to sort of... accept that, you know, change will happen, you know, change is the only constant that happens and the more that people can start to understand, I guess, appreciate that and then come up a new thing, a new challenge, start coming at that with how can I make that work and it's then subtleties that if you don't challenge the two together, Brian (09:11) Right. Claire Clark (09:34) you won't succeed in getting the benefits from Agile and DevOps. You could have the best processes in the world, but if the mindset's not there, you're never going to reap the benefits of what you're trying to achieve. So I try to work with teams on both fronts at the same time, because like I say, you can have the right mindset, but they might not understand the process or the right process. If the mindset's not there, the implementation won't come to fruition. Brian (10:02) Yeah, we actually just had another episode that was, I think it was our last episode actually, looking at the order of this. But when we were talking, we were talking with Ken Ricard about the overlap between change groups and the lean change overlapping with Agile and how really that ability to shift and adjust and change is really at the central core of it. What other kind of key cultural shifts do you feel like are necessary when a group starts to adopt DevOps practices that they really need to get a handle on? Claire Clark (10:43) Yeah, I found that some teams really struggle with the concept of the shift left side of it. So it tends to be, we've always done it this way. And because it's become second nature to do certain aspects, you know, certain aspects of the software delivery and development in a certain manner, that trying to open up people's minds to say there is another way and it's different. Brian (10:52) Yeah. Claire Clark (11:13) And it will feel different, but you've got to be open to trying that. And here's why. So I think the cultural side of it is I still see at times some teams that are really focused on DevOps tooling. And it's, I think the mind set shift, the cultural shift is it's not, that's a part of it. Part of DevOps is the tooling you have to do that. And same as when people struggled on the agile journey initially is, you know, thinking agile was, you know, user stories and Jira and yeah, Jira and things like that. And that's, that's a tool that facilitates you to work in that way. But having a tool like that, a Camman board it or so on, doesn't make you agile. And it is that. Brian (11:50) Sure. Right. Right. Claire Clark (12:08) It's that same thing with DevOps. There's some brilliant tools out there now and we are getting that shift left approach and using them tools to integrate at different stages of the software development more of the operational aspects and getting that continuous integration. But I think with Agile, people, a lot of teams have gone over time now and through the great work like what Mike does, helping people understand how to. to really come on board and get the best out of an agile way of working. It feels like with DevOps, we're in a similar spot where some people have really got it. They get that mindset, they live and breathe the kind of DevOps side of it. But there are still a lot of teams that you come across and DevOps is still a tool. It's still a thing. And maybe they get that tool in place and hey, presto, we're DevOps. And it's like... Some of the subtleties that you don't see, it's not in a process, it's not in a tool. That behavior and that mindset is what I think there's still a bit more of a journey to go on across the industry with that DevOps side of it. It just feels so similar to when Agile sort of come out and the challenges people were facing there and what we believed Agile is and what Agile really is. Brian (13:29) Yeah, that's a great analogy. I love thinking about it that way. I mean, it's like if you have a boat that's in a garage, you can get in the boat, you can turn it on, you've got a fantastic tool, but if you don't ever put it in the water, it's not going to really live up to its purpose. And that's kind of the way people, I think, sometimes look at some of these tools is, well, we got the tool, so we're sailors now, right? We can... We know how to drive our boat because we have a boat. No, you got to put it in the water, right? You got to actually know where to use it. Claire Clark (14:01) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One example I always think of is it's a bit like having a scenario where there's a driver and there's a really fancy, you know, car, but it's got no engine. So you can have all of these elements and you could say, I'm a racing car driver, I've got this really fancy car. Brian (14:18) Mmm. Claire Clark (14:25) It looks great and you know, it's got all the features on it and all of the buttons you can press, but, but underneath the core of that is the engine. And I liken it to like with Agile and DevOps, the core underneath this is the mindset. And it's that, it's that hearts and minds of the principles behind DevOps principles behind Agile that if people buy into that, the rest is a bit easier to implement. But often people can have tooling shoved at them or a nice fancy car in that scenario. But it doesn't come with the fundamental, the heartbeat, so to speak, inside that really embraces the principles behind some of these things. And it's that where the cultural side comes in that people really do not just read the words and say collaboration. They act it. They do it. They... Brian (14:54) Yeah. Claire Clark (15:21) you see them behaviors and I think sometimes with Agile and DevOps some of the principles or the value that you get out of them once people describe them they love it, they say it sounds great yeah we should do at DevOps we should do Agile but if they're missing that connection to the heart underneath the value is the principles. even if they sound great, if they don't exhibit the behaviors, that will affect the culture. And you often can see that in teams where, you know, the quote processes, quote tools, but then the behaviors are almost opposite to some of the values that underpin agile and underpin DevOps. And then, yeah, for me, I would say you've got to try to tackle both together. Brian (16:08) Yeah. Claire Clark (16:13) And you just won't really get the success and the team won't enjoy it. Yeah. Brian (16:19) Yeah. So I think one of the things I've seen too, when people implement DevOps is they kind of miss, it seems like they miss the heart of it, the point. If you had to sum it up, what would you say is the purpose? Why do we need DevOps? What is the purpose that the DevOps, a good DevOps team, what's really their driving purpose? Claire Clark (16:29) Yeah. You see it work really well with teams, the successful teams, when their focus is about continuous integration and delivery of functionality to customers as quick as they can, not, but without, you know, still with the quality and the stabilization. But they, they focus quite a lot on that optimizing that, you know, how soon can we break something down, prove it, test it. And get that out to the customer so the customer can realize the value. So for me in the, in the DevOps, it's where the teams really focused on making that, that channel of that functionality is seamless as possible and making it as efficient as possible so that, you know, it is from end to end, create the product and it's good to go as soon as possible. So. It's less about when you hear people talk about tooling. It's more when you hear them, the thinking shines through in what they're saying. In how can we get that sooner? How can we, how can we use the principles to get value to customers and prove what we're doing is right along the way. Brian (18:05) Yeah, and it overlaps perfectly with what we're trying to do in Agile with delivering value. And I love that kind of marriage that it seems to have there. How about from a leader's standpoint, what is important for leaders to understand? How can leaders better support DevOps in their organizations? Claire Clark (18:28) found that from a leadership perspective, and I've supported teams on this, is being open about how different it might feel and how different that might be in terms of where we're working. And having an initial discussion to check with people, their understanding of what DevOps is before you start going on that journey. So one exercise I did once was, just simply to ask everybody in the room before we started going on that kind of DevOps journey. What is DevOps? What do you believe it is? And the responses in one team alone was incredibly different. How they described it, someone said, it's someone's job over there. It's to do with, it's like that way. And then, yeah, described it as it. Brian (19:18) It's Jenkins. Claire Clark (19:24) It's nothing to do with me. I'm software engineer or I'm tester. It's more business and support type things. And I think doing that exercise at the start was really good to sort of understand and appreciate where we're actually starting on that journey and where even misconceptions have come in or where people have not had the opportunity to somebody to share and explain to them what. What in essence is DevOps? And, you know, same response again, a lot of names of toolings come up and, you know, there's this tool, this tool, this tool. And so with Agile, I tend to talk about things like there's the principles, the values, frameworks, and, you know, when we started to describe DevOps in a similar way to the team, they were able to relate that to that structure that you get with Agile. where I was saying, in essence, there's some principles behind this. There's some aims, some aspirations, some goals that we're going for. Just put the tooling aside for the moment. We can change the tools, whatever tool we want, but if we just focus on that. So I've sent her a lot of the discussion around that initially. And from there, that's when as a leader, you can start to then move on to some of the processing tooling. But I think you've got to really listen to the team. understand the challenges they've got in how they work now and what would it mean on a change management perspective to migrate to that kind of more DevOps way of working. So you've got to listen to your team. You've got to understand the products at hand that you're working with and support the team as much as you can on that, both from process tooling, but on that mindset. because of us, if you don't, what you end up with is a lot of friction in a team and a lot of friction against the thing like DevOps and pretty much what I think you saw in the industry when a lot of organizations moved from waterfall to agile. There was some people who, you know, they read about it. They loved it. They're on the journey. Let's try it. Let's go. I get it. And then there was some people where they just had that struggle that, that. Brian (21:26) Yeah. Claire Clark (21:48) What do you mean? So if I'm in traditional way of working, how does that translate to the new way? And you've got to take that time as a leader to allow people to have that open debate around it and support one another to really understand that fundamental side of it. And I think often a lot of organizations hear about DevOps or hear about Agile. And within a couple of months, that's it. The one agile in DevOps in get all the benefits. It sounds great. But as a leader of a software team where you're trying to introduce that you have to appreciate that every team's journey is different and approach it as needed. And that it might not be a quick five minute. If it definitely isn't to turn that around. And, and you can start getting some of the benefits incrementally along the way. I was like agile, I would say. And eventually you'll get the full benefits that people buy into when they hear about these amazing ways of working that will bring them so much better opportunity. Brian (22:59) Yeah, I think it's such a great point too, because like you said, if you have a misconception about what this is and what our purpose is, where our point is, we talk about individuals and interactions over processes and tools, and we look at that and we actually dissect it and start to think about it as an organization and decide, you know what? No, we really are more process than tools over individuals and interactions, then that's going to be a problem. Claire Clark (23:26) Yeah. Yeah. Brian (23:28) You know, that's gonna be, we're not gonna be successful because we don't have that cultural value that underpins kind of why we're doing things the way we are. Claire Clark (23:40) Yeah. Yeah. And, and exactly that, when you say about the, the interactions and then behaviors and so on in, in a team and then over, you know, processes and tools, it's, it's often that side of it. What in some organizations is the afterthought and you know, the tooling space, just get this tool and it'll help us with this. Then get the process on the tool so we can get the benefit from the tool. And then afterwards it's, let's help the people who are not on the journey with this, are struggling with the journey and so on. And, and I tend to think it's, focus on, on what their understanding is, the alignment, get that shared understanding. like what we do through our job as working, get the shared understanding. And then once you've got that alignment as to what it actually means in principle and. everybody can feels they can understand and appreciate that. That to me is where all the other aspects just become easier. But naturally it tends to be focused the other way around on get the benefit. We need to get the tool, we need to then get a process for the tool and then let's work out where everyone's happy or not. Brian (25:01) Right. So you've done these kind of transformations in multiple places. How have you traditionally tried to measure success? How do you know where you are in your journey of this DevOps transformation and what are you aiming for as a successful endpoint? Claire Clark (25:20) Yes, I often, I sort of built, maturity matrix on a lot of these things. So from agile and DevOps, and in there, I cover that human side of it. There'll be heavy side. And from a maturity perspective, I kind of benchmark it at the basics and then eventually it gets more mature and eventually it becomes self kind of, I guess, running and organizing and. There's certain behaviors and process, maturity that you expect to see at each kind of stage of that journey. So you might start off at the beginning, it's chaotic, there's that misalignment on what everyone thinks this is. and you know, you build on that over time and you just keep rechecking on that maturity kind of this and that score. Where are we at across all of those different things? And it's quite easy then to assess and say, was, was, was, we're getting better, but we're not a kind of self sufficient, systems running. Everything's quite independent kind of model. And then obviously you get to the point of utopia where it's smooth, it's running. We're constantly looking at how we can improve this. and we take action, self -action to do that. So I tend to like look across the horizon of agile and DevOps and team culture. and behaviors. And at that, that's where I kind of understand then what level we are at the moment, where, which areas in particular do we need the most support? And that then kind of shapes how I approach things with that team, the speed at which you maybe then try and bring some of that change in. But importantly, what actions I need to do to, to support that team on that journey of maturity. And like I said, each team different and some it's easier to move up through that maturity across all those pieces than it is for others. But you've just got constantly like with Agile and DevOps looking at how can you improve what you're doing now? And it is a journey you can always improve. And to get there, you've got to have that goal. You've got to have something to aim for. What does good look like? and have that as a common goal across the team. So we know what the North Star is, we know what we're aiming for, we know that, you know, we really, really are agile, really are doing boxing, getting benefits out of this. And then really be honest about where you are as a team and then work with that team to support them on listening to if they've got ideas and perhaps, and best practices in there that they've maybe done somewhere else before they want to apply. But... For me as a leader, the biggest thing I can do is all those learnings that I've got from all the different experiences is to bring that to that team, share that and say, I've seen an example like this before. This is what we've tried. How would we want to try that here? Because along my journey to success and like you said earlier, winning these awards and so on, it... It's been a challenge, you know, without doubt it's, it's, it's software development can be difficult. Developing teams and bringing changes into business is not easy. And along the way I've learned, you know, some really good practices. And I think as a leader, you've got to really be able to come in, appreciate the team and the scenario that you're in and work out the best path forward. And every path of every organization is different. but you can use your experience to work out how to navigate through that journey. I think the key thing to do as a leader is to appreciate that every team, every organization you work with has a different journey. But what you have learned along the way as a leader is where the wrong turns are, where you can get the most efficiency, where common problems are, but importantly, how you've managed to overcome them. How... You know, learning that is difficult, but using that and having that appreciation with the team to impart your experience and share that with them. Listen to them. And the biggest thing I ever says, I'm on this journey with you. I'm not here to do this journey at you. I'm here to help you on that journey. I can show you what a kind of good Northstar looks like, but I'm in this with you. I will support. We're in this together. Brian (29:52) Yeah. Claire Clark (30:05) And as a leader, I'll do what I can to help you on that journey with the experience I've got. I'll make it as easy as, as it can be. And so, yeah, I think that that's the key thing that I've kind of led from, I guess, in my leadership side of things is it's not you come into an organization and take them on an agile journey, take them on a DevOps journey. You're going on that journey with them. Brian (30:32) I love that. Yeah, that's a great point. That's such a great leadership point. Well, Claire, I can't thank you enough. This has been so eye opening and there's so much great information here. And easily could go on for another hour talking about this stuff. But thank you for taking your time and sharing your wisdom with us and with the group here at Agile Mentors. Claire Clark (30:55) Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. Yeah, I've really enjoyed it.

Join Brian and Ken Rickard as they delve into why agile transformations get stuck and uncover strategies for creating adaptive, resilient organizations and people. Overview In this episode, Brian sits down with coach, author, and Lean Change agent, Ken Rickard to explore the common pitfalls of agile transformations and the commodification of agile practices. Ken emphasizes the need to focus on people rather than processes and introduces the art of change, which includes self-awareness and adaptability. And shares the six big ideas of adaptive organizations, such as sense-making strategies and leadership agility. Tune in to learn how to navigate transformation challenges and create an environment that fosters resilience and adaptability. References and resources mentioned in the show: Ken Rickard Insight The Six Big Ideas of Adaptive Organizations: From Frameworks to Sensemaking by Ken Rickard and Jason Little Agile Manifesto For Software Development Lean Change Mountain Goat Software’s Agile for Leaders Training Join the Agile Mentors Community Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Ken Rickard is a spark for transformative good — a change alchemist, deep thinker, and a catalyst for personal growth and organizational evolution. With over 15 years in the agile community, he's honed the art of navigating change and embracing adaptation as the true essence of agility. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have a really special guest with us. I have Mr. Ken Ricard with us. Welcome in, Ken. Ken Rickard (00:12) Thank you. Nice to be here. Brian (00:14) Glad to have Ken here with us. Ken recently spoke at the the global Scrum Gathering, in New Orleans that I was at as well and had a really interesting, actually had a workshop slot there for a workshop titled Humans Agile and Change, How to Get Your Transformation Unstuck. And wanted to have Ken on to kind of talk through that a little bit. But before we do, for those people who aren't familiar with Ken, let me give you a little bit of an introduction here. Ken is an enterprise coach and change alchemist. I love that. At a company called Insight, he co -authored a book called The Six Big Ideas of Adaptive Organizations, which I know we're going to get into here in this conversation. He's a licensed facilitator of Lean Change. He's an IC Agile authorized instructor. So he's got just a load of credentials and a load of experience to bring to the table here with this. So Ken, let's get into this. Let's talk about humans agile and change and how to get transformations unstuck. What do you think is the main cause of transformations getting stuck? Ken Rickard (01:31) Yeah. So I think, you know, we're all feeling the effects of the high of agile. And I think now we're, we're starting to come down a little bit in the industry. I think everyone's feeling that effect. I mean, I see so many agile coaches on LinkedIn that are still looking for roles and whatnot, scrum masters, you know, a good bit of that, though, I think it's a blowback from the industry and just companies in general who, when they need to tighten the belt, they're actually beginning to look at the roles they've got and figure out which ones that they can do without for now. Or maybe they can do with roles they've already got. And so the effect of that, I think is coming from this idea that, you know, the agile industry, let's even narrow that a little bit more and talk about scrum specifically, has really kind of in the industry has become commodified around this idea that it's a process. And that we just like, we used to do this thing over here and we can just go to the shelf and purchase like scrum in a way. And then like. take that and just drop it into the spot and the practices we used to do. And so when it was only viewed as a process replacement for what they're doing now, it's very easy when, things get rough or tough in the industry as they've been over the past year, year and a half, two years, that our natural, you know, kind of inclination is to kind of hunker down and that hunkering down is to go back to what's comfortable to us, which is typically non -agile, non edge. things because that edge is actually kind of uncomfortable. And so we want to kind of go back and go back into our hole and actually like do the things that we're most comfortable with as an organization or as leaders. And so, yeah, I think that's been kind of what's been happening. And it's just, you know, the follow up from that, I think it's just now hitting the industry, I think in the current times now. Brian (03:10) Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I mean, you talk about it being a commodity and I can definitely see that across the different organizations that do certifications with this, and we're both trainers, we both do trainings. The hard part for me as a trainer is that I don't wanna... discourage people from getting training because I think the training is an important step, right? I think it's you know, you got to know the basics before you can play a sport and You know, if this is the team sport, but it's it's so much easier for me to tell someone all right Well, there's these roles these events and these artifacts Ken Rickard (03:49) Mm -hmm. Brian (04:05) and they can just go, you know, start putting it into their schedule. Here's the events we're going to do, and we have these meetings at this time. It's easy to do that, but it's hard to say, all right, what is openness? And how do we operate in an open environment, you know, or how do we treat each other with respect as we go through this kind of thing? That's hard to train, you know? Ken Rickard (04:10) Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And coming from the, you know, I've spent a three and a half, almost four years now, I think with lean change and Jason little, and, and obviously we co -wrote co -wrote the, the book together, but the, I think the thing that I've learned from all that is, I mean, I want to say that at the beginning, the intention of the folks that created the agile manifesto for software development, their intention was really to help the industry change, but from a software development and probably an adjacent request would have been that the project management kind of behavioral patterns that were there and existing already. They could have actually kind of caused that trajectory to start to shift. And they obviously did over time. I think the one thing, if I had a time machine and I could go back and I could just plant a little seed with those 17 folks, it would be to not look so narrowly at the organization, like just the software development part. Because I think that's what's caused agile and scrum to become that thing that those IT developers do. And it's actually in a way done a disservice, I believe, to the industry at large and then just kind of the trajectory over time and where we kind of landed over these past few years. And it's why with lean change, what I'm trying to do, and I'm not the only one trying to do this. There's a number of folks out there trying to do this as well. But I think Jason and I, what we're trying to do and all the lean change facilitators is to get people to realize. that at the end of the day, everything is really about change. So scrum is just a process. It has all these, like behavioral patterns that come along with it. You're going to need to change, but those things aren't laid out necessarily exactly explicitly in the scrum guide. So you can read through that with your current understanding and your current lens of the world. And you can go, okay, I got this. And okay, all I need to do is go and create a scrum master position and I need a product owner and we need to do these events and then we need to set up these artifacts. And, and that can very easily lead to that kind of mechanical approach to scrum because that's kind of the world they've come from, right? If they've come from kind of project management world where everything is very laid out, very kind of straightforward and linear and then sequentially executed. And I think what we would all probably agree is that what's really missing is that mentality shift and. and the perspective shift. And to get there, we got to really focus on people change. Like, and I don't mean just like, Hey, we're doing a new process. So what do I need to do differently? Or, Hey, we put, we installed this new piece of governance software. So what buttons do I need to push differently? I'm talking about like actual evolution of the individual, their beliefs, their behavioral patterns, and the rituals that match up to those behaviors and beliefs that set underneath them as a person. Brian (06:52) Yeah. Yeah. Ken Rickard (07:14) And so that's what we're really trying to focus on from Lean Change is we're really trying to help people understand that, that to do those things well, to do things like Scrum well, you really have to focus not just on the process change or the technology change, but actually on the people change. You may even have to focus on structures and strategies as well. Brian (07:31) So I'm trying to channel my inner listener and try to think of what they might be asking or thinking about in hearing this. And I mean, what I think about is, all right, well, let's say I'm an organization and I buy an end to all this stuff. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we've tried that. We've tried to implement this stuff and it's all about process and we'd rather not do that. We want to do it the right way. Where do you start? How do you start to... Ken Rickard (07:38) Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Brian (08:00) you come in and just say, hey everybody, we're gonna change how you think and how you, how do you start to get the organization to shift like that? Ken Rickard (08:06) Yeah, that's tough. Yeah. Yeah. And I would actually, I would point the finger right back at ourselves first. I mean, this is the journey I've been on for the past five years. You know, I mean, I, I actually talked about this in the session at the global scrum, scrum gathering. I told the crowd there. I was like, like five years ago, Ken, like if anybody challenged anything or didn't understand how scrum worked, I would essentially kind of like, Brian (08:14) Ha ha ha. Ken Rickard (08:34) just picture this idea of Ken taking them by the arm and leading them over to the Scrum Guide and being like, look, here's what the Scrum Guide says. And that was kind of my go -to thing in a way, variations on that, obviously. But at that time, it was mentality -wise, I was just like, okay, well, we just need to do Scrum. If we just do it well and we do it like it says we're supposed to do it, then it'll fix all the things. And that didn't really get the best response out of it. everyone. You know, it wasn't until I started to shift myself and my own perspective and start to really understand that, okay, I'm not the snake oil salesperson that they probably think I am. I'm actually somebody who's trying to help them change. And so if I look at it from that perspective, now it becomes less about the process or the framework and all the specifics of the framework. And it becomes more about, okay, where are they now? Brian (09:18) Yeah. Ken Rickard (09:29) What mentality do they have now? What are the attitudes that they have about the things that I would hope to put in front of them? Like, are they, are they like, yeah, this is great. Let's do it. Or are they like, no, I don't know. Not so sure. Or are they like, no, that's a stupidest thing I've ever heard of. Like we would never do that here. so better understanding them as an individual and then being able to better show up in a way that is going to be conducive for them to see the need to change is actually the very first. Brian (09:42) Yeah. Ken Rickard (09:55) best thing that I ever did in the way that I shifted my own perspective and how I showed up. And then that started to actually unlock them and their ability to actually pay attention and realize how they needed to change. And then therefore the change started to go. It's a much slower route because you can just go take stuff off the shelf and be like, Hey, we need to do it like this. And you probably will get some traction with some folks, but you're probably going to miss a good bit of them too. So. Brian (10:20) Well, let me, let me ask you this because this is something I've kind of been wrestling with with some other guests on the podcast as well. It's just this, this concept that, you know, partly, I think what's behind some of the problems with this is, is also the short kind of nature of, of how we view change in organizations. And, you know, we want quick results. We, you know, we have a change initiative to do something and we want to see that, that, that benefit of that change in the next three months. Ken Rickard (10:42) Sure. Brian (10:49) And all of a sudden things are going to be completely turned around and we're going to do things differently. But that's driven a lot from this short -sighted nature of, you know, we got to increase our profits quarter by quarter. We got to, you know, please our shareholders and they don't have the long vision that we used to have in companies of, you know, 10 years or something. Ken Rickard (10:54) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to say something and I'm going to meet it in a completely different way. Planning. Let me explain what I mean by this. all right. And I don't want to make this into the lean change show either, but I'm going to talk about a concept, from lean change real quick. so bear with me, but, so there's this idea that has been created in lean change. It's called, we, we, we refer to it as a big next now. Really what it is is it's like. Brian (11:17) Okay? Hahaha. Ken Rickard (11:42) Think of like an overarching rainbow at the top of like, Hey, what's the largest, biggest thing we're trying to accomplish? And what's the strategy around that? And if we can define a high level strategy around that, it will help us be, get like an orientation towards what outcomes are trying to seek it at the grandiose level. Let's say it's an agile transformation. All right. Underneath there are like a series of smaller humps that are like, okay, what are the goals we might want to actually achieve? Let's make sure those are really loose. except for the ones that are in the very beginning. Does this sound familiar? I'm basically describing breaking down and iterating incrementally changing the organization, right? So, underneath that you'd have like what's referred to as like the lean change cycle. This idea that we go out and actually look at the organization and get data back on what might need to change instead of actually telling people what needs to change. Like, Hey, we're becoming a scrum team, or this is what scrum is, and this is how it works. Brian (12:21) Yeah, yeah. Ken Rickard (12:41) well, what if they just start where they are and maybe the first thing I add is like a daily, you know, maybe they don't have any kind of coordination events at all right now. And then their tolerance level to change is just minimal. So, okay. So as a coach or as a less even a scrum master, the first thing I might help them do is to actually just put in some frequency of a regular sink. That could wind up turning into something that we would recognize as a daily scrum or a daily standup, but. In the beginning, maybe they don't have the tolerance to go right directly to the thing. Maybe they'll reject that or resist that. So as, as a coach or as a scrum master who's focused on change and not the process of the framework, I would go in and actually help them figure out what the best changes for them right now. And that's the approach I've been using and it just works. It works pretty well. versus coming in and being like, Hey, here's what scrum is. Here's how it works. Let's go through this training. You know, we got to get all these things set up. We need, here's what perfect looks like. Brian (13:14) Yeah. Ken Rickard (13:39) guess what we can't get there. So yeah. Brian (13:43) Yeah, I mean, as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, you know, it's a difference of listening versus telling, you know, like there's a, there's kind of a telling mindset of going in for a lot of coaching of, you know, what we would typically frame more as a consulting approach. You know, I have answers. Here's the answers for you. Just do the way that I've always done it and everything will be fine versus let's actually hear what your situation is. And. Ken Rickard (13:59) Yeah. Brian (14:10) what your needs are and what you're seeing going wrong and how can we address those issues? I love that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Ken Rickard (14:14) Yeah, and experimenting through it and honestly showing up, showing up as, or knowing when to show up in a coaching stance, who is going to be more empathetic and more understanding and not going to give them all the answers and it's going to let them explore and figure it out. And it's going to shine the light in the dark corners of the room versus the consultant stance, which is going to show up in more of an advisory. Hey, If I see you all struggling, I'm going to kind of tell you what to do or show you what to do. And they may not be ready for that. So it's about knowing when to actually do one stance or the other and be able to be very fluid in those things. Brian (14:47) Yeah. Yeah, there's a, there's a phrase I'll use often in class when I talk about the coaching kind of mindset to say, you know, what we're trying to do is not build knowledge, but build capability. And if you build the capability, then people can then adapt and change when, when something similar comes along or something in the same realm, they can say, yeah, I remember last time when we had something like this, here's how I responded. So that, that ability, I think to. deal with change like you're saying. And if we have it ingrained in our mindset that, hey, we identify problems, we inspect them and we adapt as we go along, to me, that's so much more important to build into how we do things than it is to know, we got these four meetings or five meetings that we're gonna make sure we hold at a certain time. Awesome. Well, you know, I'd like to hear a little bit because I know, you know, your talk is somewhat loosely based on your book as well. And, you know, with a title like the six big ideas, help us understand. We may not have time for all six, but give us some of these big ideas. Ken Rickard (16:00) Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I'm also still, I think Jason and I are still trying to figure out if, how the word or the phrase big ideas is resonating with folks too, because in the agile community, you know, big, big is not a word that I think people will gravitate to very quickly, but, we're also trying to straddle the fence on the change community and the agile community. Honestly, what we're trying to do is I was joking around and I think we, I'm. Brian (16:21) Yeah. Yeah. Ken Rickard (16:31) might've wrote this either in the book that's out now or the bigger book that we're working on for later this fall. But I wrote somewhere that really the change community and the agile community should really go on a blind date because they never should have really been two separate communities in my opinion. And I think Jason would hold the same opinions and a lot of our lean change facilitators, I think would hold the same opinions. So yeah, so the book is really about trying to get Agilist to understand that their role is really about change. Brian (16:47) Yeah. Ken Rickard (17:02) They already know the agile bits and the iterative incremental and all that kind of stuff. And that the change community really needs to better understand the agility community and take some of those practices and apply it to the change. And if both sides do those things, we're going to wind up in the middle and everybody's going to be the same type of person or the same type of thing. Because at the end of the day, getting to agility, like this idea of the characteristics of being nimble and being able to adapt to what's going on with a certain grace and resilience. Brian (17:25) Yeah. Ken Rickard (17:31) that set of characteristics is really, I think what the agile industry is hoping to go for. And yet a lot of the folks that find these things come to it with their current understanding and they don't really, aren't really looking to change themselves and how they see things, their perspective. And so that's how we get into this commodified kind of off the shelf version of it. And so I think we're just trying to get people to realize that. Look, if you look at these big, these six big ideas, which are really just sense making strategies. At the end of the day, that's what they are. You should be able to sense your way through what your context, your organization, given the changes that are going on. you know, what are those circumstances? How well do you know those circumstances? If you can understand those things in a sense making way, you'll be able to show up in a way that it actually be conducive to help that organization change, no matter what the scope of the changes. Let's say you're a store master. It could be your scope of your change is essentially your team or teams. Brian (18:25) Yeah. Ken Rickard (18:29) And the product that they're building, let's say you're an agile coach. Okay. Maybe it's somewhat wider than that. I don't know. I'm still on the fence about what the difference between agile coaching and scrum master is. That's another podcast though. I think, or let's say you're somewhere higher up in the organization. So whatever your purview is, whatever your scope is, that context is really what we're trying to do. We're trying to help you and the others around you understand what it is that you're not paying attention to, what it is that you don't understand. Brian (18:39) Yeah. Ken Rickard (18:58) or that you might think you understand about your organization. So it's really six ideas to help people kind of unravel that about their organization and themselves. Because like, for instance, one of the six big ideas is something that Jason had created quite a long time ago called the four dimensions of change. And what it says is that there's four things that you really probably need to focus on as, as a agent of change. And that is yourself. So like, Brian (19:07) Yeah. Ken Rickard (19:26) Your set of beliefs about things, you know, how you show up because how you show up actually affects how others receive or perceive you. And then that impacts your ability to influence others and actually help them change. And then it goes on to say there's, the big ideas or strategies that you can deploy from, from a change perspective, typically minimally viable practices, or strategies. And then the last bucket in that four dimensions is, tools and practices. You know, the things that we have the most affinity for and tend to go to first, and kind of ignore the other three things. So it's, so that particular big idea is trying to get people to recognize that, no, there's like a bigger kind of art and science here to helping people change. It's not just about the science, like the strategy and the tools and practices to be good at those things. Most likely you got to focus on the art of change, which is yourself and your stance or how you show up. Brian (19:59) Right. Right. Yeah, I'm gonna share one of my geeky subdivisions here in making this quote, but it reminds me of in the musical Hamilton, there's a line in there that George Washington says to Hamilton where he's talking about, you know, Hamilton has these visions of going off and dying like a martyr and George Washington says, dying is easy young man, living is harder. And. Ken Rickard (20:30) Yeah. Yeah. Brian (20:51) That's kind of how I see this. I'm not saying we're dying or making a choice between dying or not, but I am saying that the practices side of thing, practice is easy young man, culture is harder. It's just harder to try to implement those things. And I think a lot of times, I don't know if it's, I think individually sometimes as coaches we can get lazy. Ken Rickard (20:55) Yeah. Brian (21:18) and go to the things that's easier to tell people about. But I also think that it's an institutional thing because it's much easier for me to certify somebody or give them a credential saying that, hey, this person knows their stuff when I can test them on facts and figures and how long is that meeting and that sort of stuff versus. Ken Rickard (21:20) Mm -hmm. somebody. Yeah. Please. Brian (21:41) you know, how do you change the mindset of the culture of the organization when they're really into quick solutions and they're into trying to get things out the door as fast as possible and not focus on quality. It's harder, right? It's just, it's more difficult. Ken Rickard (21:55) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're hitting on one of the other six big ideas right now. Actually two of them, but we can start out with the explain the one. So there's another one that we made called the, the two change strategies of effective organizations. And so what this one says is that there's two ways that you can probably improve or change your organization. And that's a fractal statement in an organization because again, we're only talking about whatever context you have. Brian (22:06) Hahaha. Ken Rickard (22:27) Cause if you're a SCAR master, we're talking about the context you have of the teams you're working with. Agile coach or something higher up than that, whatever context you have. So, okay. So within your context, you probably have two ways to think about and try to help your organization change. And those two ways are either optimizing what they already do to make it better, faster, cheaper, or evolving the way they think about what they do so that they can actually succeed in ways that they never have before. And I'd be, I'll go out on a limb and say that every, at the very least, every single company I've come across that's doing agile and whatever way they call it, is really trying to do it from the purpose of the optimization, better, faster, cheaper. I think there are very few companies around the world that are actually taking it seriously enough to do the evolution part to actually change the way they think about how they do things in such ways that they're actually elevating. their set of beliefs and behavioral patterns, not just as individuals, sorry, as individuals, but as a collective and then ultimately as an organization. And so it's really trying to get you to, to focus on what is it that we actually are trying to improve? Is it just that we're trying to optimize what we're doing now? Cause that's a take scram off the shelf and just drop it in, you know, or that's send people to training and like come back and be like, cool, you're certified. Brian (23:33) Chief. Ken Rickard (23:49) But if we don't ask the hard questions around, okay, well, what are you gonna change about your behaviors? Then they're likely not focusing on evolution. And if we're not coaching them through that, yeah, not really going anywhere. Brian (24:01) Yeah, do you think organizations just don't know what they don't know? I mean, because I know you're right, they do want better, faster, cheaper. And that's sort of the end goal that they're coming at a lot of this stuff with. They just not recognize that it's really the change capability that they should prioritize. Ken Rickard (24:05) It's like. Well, I think it's because they focus. So what's really easy for a lot of organizations to change. There's a, we're going to keep tying these five, sorry, these six big ideas together, I guess, because there's another one called the five levers of change. And what that one is, is a, it's a circle of five things with people being the biggest circle in the center. And then on the four corners of it, it's basically process and technology strategies and structures. Brian (24:32) No, that's great. Ken Rickard (24:48) And so if we look at that as a systems approach to changing an organization, the reason why it's called the five levers is because they can pull any levers in any combination they want in order to try to change their organization. But the easiest levers to pull are process and technology. So, Hey, let's do scrum and we need to install Jira or Azure DevOps. Right. And that's generally where these kinds of things start because it's within the control of the teams oftentimes to make those changes. It doesn't impact a larger organization to, well, it can, but probably to a lesser extent initially. So the teams have some level of autonomy or local control to start making those changes. They don't run into problems or impediments or just kind of organizational dysfunction until a little bit down the road so they can kick that can down the road. And so I think it's, I think it's that that causes us to gravitate towards a process and then just pull that lever pretty easily. And, and that's an optimization lever. So if you tie those two ideas together, it takes the other side of those five levers, the structure and the strategies, which are all built on beliefs. You know, like if I'm a leader in a hierarchy who's worked 20 years to get to my lofty management position, I'm going to be a lot less likely to take a empathetic kind of delegated approach to my management style because I put in a lot of hard work to get to where I am now. And there's no way you're going to tell me now. Brian (25:48) Yeah. Ken Rickard (26:18) 20 years that I now have to change the way I operate? Like, no, I'm in control here. So I think we're also battling that a little bit too. Brian (26:20) Right. Yeah, what I've done got me here. So why would I do something different now? Right? Ken Rickard (26:32) Right. Exactly. Brian (26:34) Yeah, I've battled that in multiple occasions, for sure. One of the places I worked was a newspaper. And if you want to talk about people not wanting to change their mindsets of, hey, what do you mean that people don't want to have delivery of their newspaper on their front doorstep every day like they've done their whole life? Yeah, it's crazy. Well, this is great stuff. I'm really enjoying this. Ken Rickard (26:49) Yeah. Yeah. Brian (27:03) Do you have one last big thought, big idea to leave us with here? Because we're almost out of time, but what have we missed in these big ideas? Ken Rickard (27:13) Yeah, probably the other big one that comes up a lot. one of the other six that I haven't talked about yet is the, what I call the three agilities. And we'll tend to focus on the delivery agility, which is like, Hey, we, we can help you team better and people better at the team level where you're delivering. And we can help you become more product led. And we can also help you with your technical excellence, you know, like DevOps types things, right? Brian (27:21) Okay? Ken Rickard (27:38) And I think we could probably draw a circle around those three things and go, you know what, for the vast majority of the agile industry, this is what they think agile is. But in my opinion, that's only one of the agilities an organization needs in order to actually possess the characteristics of agility. And the other two would be change agility. The idea that we are adaptable to the change that we cannot control and that we actually can adapt well in a resilient way to the change we can control within our organization. And that we're constantly evolving to get better at that so that we can sustain change in a graceful way over time. So that's change agility. And then the third one is probably possibly the most important one. And that is leadership agility. This idea that if we don't create the environment for change to take place in a conducive way that is productive and adaptable. then we won't change and we'll stay stagnant and we'll stick to our standardized approaches in a stagnant way. And then delivery will suffer even though we can put new things on top of it and we can call things new words, it won't actually change. And the leadership agility is really about not just trying to teach leaders to be more competent. That's generally what management consulting and a lot of other folks are focused on. It's really about trying to help leaders address their ability. to actually have a consciousness about themselves, that they can show up in ways that are actually enabling and empowering the organization to be adaptable and flexible and to be able to deliver and change in ways that are graceful and resilient. And so in my opinion, it kind of starts there even though a lot of them don't start. Brian (29:14) I love that. No, I love that. I think that's great because, you know, a lot of times you hear the complaints of people who come through classes that are kind of more team level in the organization. And it's, there's a lot of complaints about how management just doesn't understand, or we're bumping up against the glass ceiling, you know, kind of in our organization, we can't really Institute change or make the change permanent because, you know, leadership still wants things exactly in the old way. They haven't actually shifted. how they think about things. So I love that, I love that concept. I would agree there. Well, this is great stuff. And obviously, like I said, the workshop that Ken did at the Scrum Gathering was an hour and a half. And this is just a short little taste in half an hour. So there's no way we're gonna be able to cover it all here. I strongly encourage people, if they're really interested in this topic, if they're really interested in what Ken is saying, Ken Rickard (29:53) Thank you. Yeah. Brian (30:15) Check out the book the six big ideas of adaptive organizations. It's a great book And it'll go into detail on all of these these six big ideas that we talked about here And what we're gonna put lots of the links in our show notes here so if you want to just head on over our show notes you'll find links over not only that but to to Ken's organization the six big ideas network and you can find the website there and find the the Ken Rickard (30:24) Mm -hmm. Brian (30:44) classes and trainings that Ken is doing in this area. So we'll make sure that everybody can get to that. Ken, I can't thank you enough. Thanks for coming on and sharing your knowledge with us today. Yeah. Ken Rickard (30:54) Yeah, thanks for having me. It was fun.

Join Brian and Bernie Maloney as they explore the transformative power of mental models, emphasizing the shift from a mechanistic to an organic mindset in Agile organizations. Overview In this episode, Brian and Bernie Maloney discuss the profound impact of mental models on organizational culture. Bernie delves into how our beliefs and assumptions shape our thinking and behavior, particularly within Agile environments. He discusses the importance of transitioning from a mechanistic to an organic mindset, focusing on problem-solving rather than merely delivering solutions. The conversation also highlights the role of psychological safety in fostering a culture of experimentation and learning. Bernie shares valuable resources, including Amy Edmondson's 'The Right Kind of Wrong,' to further explore these concepts. Tune in for insightful strategies for enhancing your organization's agility and effectiveness. Listen Now to Discover: [1:03] - Brian welcomes Certified Scrum Trainer® and Principal at Power By Teams, Bernie Maloney, to the show. [2:15] - Bernie delves into the concept of mental models, sharing the origins of his philosophy of "making new mistakes" developed during his time at Hewlett Packard. [5:55] - Bernie illustrates the power of mental models and belief by sharing a compelling example that brings these concepts to life. [13:46] - Join us for a Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training, where a year of coaching and development with Mike Cohn, Brian, and the Agile Mentors Community of Agile leaders is included with your training. [14:39] - Bernie discusses how applying mental models can enhance the effectiveness of Agile transformations, creating a naturally adaptive and innovative climate. [18:12] - Bernie offers language as a powerful tool to support the shift to a new Mental Model. [23:30] - Bernie demonstrates the use of mental models for product owners through the Mobius Loop, providing actionable guidance and examples [26:27] - Brian shares a big thank you to Bernie for joining him on the show. [26:59] - If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend, and like and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast so you never miss a new episode. [27:27] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership to that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM, CSPO, or Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes. You can find the schedule here. References and resources mentioned in the show: Bernie Maloney Power By Teams Mobius Loop The Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well by Amy Edmondson Agile Teams Learn From Spikes: Time Boxed Research Activities by Mike Cohn Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Bernie Maloney is an Agile leadership coach and international speaker, leverages his 25 years of engineering and leadership experience to help teams and organizations unlock their full potential. Known for his engaging workshops and impactful coaching, Bernie believes in making performance breakthroughs both achievable and enjoyable. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We are back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I am with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have a very special guest with me. I have Mr. Bernie Maloney with me. Welcome in, Bernie. I am. Bernie Maloney (00:14) Thanks, Brian. Happy to be here. Brian (00:16) Great. I'm so excited to have Bernie here. Bernie and I have touched base for years over conferences. We've run into each other and had chats and shared our shared passion for Hawaii and other things. But Bernie was speaking at the recent conference and we've gotten into some conversations. I wanted him to come on because I wanted him to, first of all, if you're not familiar with Bernie, sorry, I see, I just want to jump right into it. If you're not familiar with Bernie, Bernie is a CST. He works at a company called Powered by Teams. He teaches classes, Scrum Master product owner classes and leadership classes and other things as well. But he is a principal at Powered by Teams. So just wanted to give you the basics there before we dive into anything. But the topic that we started to talk about that just as a jumping off place for us is a topic. the topic of mental models. So Bernie, why don't you explain to everyone how you define that, mental models. Bernie Maloney (01:23) So, Brian, this is a great topic. I find myself talking about it all the time. And y 'all, I warned Brian, like, he can press play on this, and it might be 15 minutes before he gets a word in edgewise here. It touches on mindset. It touches on a lot of topics. My talk that Brian was referencing at the recent Scrum gathering in New Orleans was make new mistakes, leadership lessons from an Agile success. which goes back to where I really kind of cut my teeth in Agile at Hewlett Packard. See, I'm a mechanical engineer by training. And I cut my teeth in Agile in the consumer PC division at HP about, this is scary to say y 'all, okay, about 27 years ago starting at this point. And some of the fun stuff, it was a bang up enterprise. It was the fastest business in HP's history to hit a billion dollars. And it was just... Brian (02:05) Yeah. Bernie Maloney (02:18) a great proving ground. We had hardware, we had software, we had distributed teams where volume manufacturing was in Asia, engineering was here where I am in Silicon Valley. Go -to -market for Europe was in Grenoble, France. We had high volume. Some of our products had 100 ,000 units in a single model run, with like 200 models in Europe on a quarterly basis at times. So high volume, high mix, tight margins from a business perspective. A lot of technology products want to have 20 % to 30 % gross margins. That's before you start taking off deductions like expenses and salaries and things like that. On a good day, we had 8 % gross margins for Christmas products, maybe 2 % gross margins. We used to refer to it as we were shipping rotting bananas. And like I said, I was there. When I started, we were shipping six products a quarter. We grew to 20. By the time I left after eight years, we were doing 200 products a quarter in Europe alone. Brian (03:04) Ha ha. Bernie Maloney (03:16) hardware, software, distributed teams, high volume, high mix. And we did all that with weekly iterations of a plan. At one point in my career, I was tactically responsible for the delivery of 2 % of HP's top line revenue with zero direct reports. And part of the secret sauce of success in that organization was really that mental model of make new mistakes. So that's where the talk title comes from. And in fact, makenewmistakes .com will point to poweredbyteams .com because I own that domain too. But that mental model really helped the organization thrive and not just survive. We went from like a number one to a number five share. Sorry, from a number five to a number one the other way around. Because the founding executives recognized that in that tide of a market, mistakes were probably going to happen. And so what they did is they established the psychological safety. Wow, look, there's another great topic. Make new mistakes. You knew that if it was an honest mistake, it would be forgiven. Just don't make it again. Get the lesson is one of the things that they said. I can even tell you the story about the weekend I blew a million dollars of HP's money and I was forgiven, but you'll have to come to a conference talk for that. So that was just like a great experience. And... Brian (04:32) Wow. Bernie Maloney (04:39) After that experience, I went on to TVs. Another part of my background is I shipped the very first internet connected TVs. Look it up, the Media Smart 3760 from HP. It shipped even before Apple TV. It bombed. Okay, it was way ahead of its time. But I recognized that that had been such a joyride. And then I recognized some other stuff that really gets into the psychological, the mental aspects of leadership, high performing teams. And I could, Brian, I could talk about that too, but okay. But that kind of got me to recognize that with those skills, the success that I had experienced at HP could probably be replicated. That's kind of been the path that I've been on for the past 15 years is really helping organizations go along that path. So mental models can be really big. Let me give everybody here an example. And so Brian, I'm going to speak to you as a way of illustrating mental models. So imagine you are physically where you are right now. Brian (05:24) Yeah. Bernie Maloney (05:37) but it is 150 years ago, okay? Imagine you're physically where you are right now, but it's 150 years ago. Now, Brian, let me ask you, can man fly? Brian (05:47) boy, you're testing my history knowledge. Bernie Maloney (05:52) Okay, make it 200 years ago, okay? That makes it easier. Okay, cool. Great, now fast forward to the present. Brian, let me ask you, can man fly? Brian (05:54) No, yeah, no. Yes. Bernie Maloney (06:02) What changed? Nothing about the laws of physical reality. It was just your mental model of what for man to fly means. That's the power of belief, okay? And belief limits a whole bunch of stuff in the way that people behave. So you'll hear Agilent talk all the time about, this is all about changing mindset. I'm probably, Brian, gonna give your listeners some ways of. Brian (06:06) invention. Bernie Maloney (06:30) changing mindset as we go through this, but that's going to illustrate the power of mental models. Now, a big one that I like to use that's specific to Agile comes from Gabby Benefield. She's an Agilist out of the UK, and it's called the Mobius Loop. And I think she's got the domain mobiusloop .com. So everybody can imagine a Mobius Loop. Okay. And what I really like about this model for her... Brian (06:32) Sure, yeah, please. Yeah. Bernie Maloney (06:56) i s the right -hand half is what a lot of organizations think Agile is. Build, measure, learn, build, measure, learn. The whole idea of the build trap that we talk about in Agile. It's all about the delivery of a solution. Okay? But the left -hand half is all about the discovery of the problem. Okay? And the discovery of the customer. And that's a part of Agile too that most organizations overlook. So you got to ask why. And it comes down to kind of mental models. So when I was at Persistent, if you go look me up on LinkedIn, you'll find some of my employment history. I was at Persistent for a while. They had a really good mental model. And it's something I still use when I go into a client. And they would talk about there's kind of three eras of a company culture. And so culture is really the environment that an organization lives within. And there's an era. where cultures were formed before the internet. So things like finance and government and mining and manufacturing and oil and gas field developed. I mean, I've had clients in all of these areas. And in that sort of an environment, okay, it was, well, an era. One of the things I'll ask, and Brian, I'll kind of like let you represent the audience. Would you say in general, the people that you work with, the markets that they serve, Are they moving faster and all up into a thumbs up, slower, thumbs down, or about the same, thumbs sideways? Are the markets moving faster, slower, or about the same as they were, say, five or 10 years ago? Brian (08:32) I think everything's moving faster, yeah. Bernie Maloney (08:34) Cool. Okay. Now, how about the technology that your clients use to solve problems for that market? You know, moving faster, thumbs up, slower, thumbs down, or about the same as it was, say, five or 10 years ago. Faster. Yeah, cool. Okay. Now, when things are moving faster, thumbs up for yes, thumbs down for no. Do they always move in a straight line? Brian (08:46) No, faster. No, not always. Bernie Maloney (08:56) Okay, cool. So now things are moving faster, but they're not moving in a straight line. So let me ask you, do most organizations try and plan and predict? Is it possible for you to plan and predict when things are moving faster and they're not moving in a straight line? Is it easier or harder to plan and predict? Brian (09:19) I think it's definitely harder. Bernie Maloney (09:21) Yeah, but organizations are trying to do that, aren't they? And it's because their mental model is as a machine. So organizations born before the internet have a mental model of the entire organizational system being a machine, the industrial age, which you can plan and predict. They treat people like cogs in a machine. In fact, the thing that us Agilists will say is, when you say resources, did you mean people? See, that's... Brian (09:35) Yeah. Bernie Maloney (09:50) That's kind of now we're starting to get into some of the culture aspects of this because language actually forms culture. And so you'll hear Angela say, did you mean people? Like when that whole word of resources comes up. But organizations born before the internet, they've got one culture. Okay, they were born in an era of plan and predict. They've got a mental model of the system being a machine. And your listeners would probably agree most of them struggle with Agile. Okay, now there's another era born in the internet but not the cloud. So some examples like here in Silicon Valley, Cisco, PayPal, okay, lots of us have had exposure to them and lots of us recognize they still struggle with agile because agile wasn't really fully formed and articulated. Then there are organizations that were born in the cloud and so places like Striper Square and I use payments because I've had... clients in finance across all three of these eras. So Stripe or Square, they were born in the cloud where things were almost natively agile because the Agile Manifesto had been published by that point. They just inherently get agile. So these mental models of your organizational system being a machine get reflected in the language. So things like people or resources, it turns them into objects. It enables something I've heard called pencil management. Wear them down to a nub, go get a new one. In fact, if you do the research on where the word resources was first applied to human beings, it might shock some people. So I don't talk about that openly. They'll have to find me privately. I'll be happy to point you out the reference. And once I do, it's like, ooh. But one of the jokes I'll crack. And this is one of the ways that you can start to shift the language. If people call you resources, because you know that turns you into an object, start calling them overhead. Brian (11:23) Yeah. Ha ha ha. Bernie Maloney (11:48) Okay, it can kind of make the difference there. Okay, so, but you know, if things are moving faster and they're harder to plan and predict, that mental model needs to shift. In fact, in agile, we talk about you need to move to sense and respond. When things are moving faster, it's kind of like Gretzky, skate to where the puck is going. You need to sense and respond to the situation. So a better mental model instead of a mechanism is an organism. Because think about organisms, like cut yourself, it heals, okay? It senses and responds. Or like a forest fire comes in, wipes things out, and nature always kind of fills things back in. Sense and respond. This gets reflected in the language. So Brian, do your clients talk about metrics? Brian (12:37) Of course, yes. Bernie Maloney (12:38) Okay, cool. So do they talk about efficiency? Brian (12:41) I would say a lot of businesses will talk about that. Yeah, sure. Bernie Maloney (12:44) Yeah, cool. That's the language of machines. Probably better language is diagnostics instead of metrics. That invokes some of the curiosity. And probably instead of efficiency is effectiveness. One of the things I'll say is scrum is not efficient. It's not about utilization of capacity. It's about the production of value, which is all about effectiveness. See, efficiency or effective. Do you go to your doctor for an efficient treatment? or ineffective treatment, Brian. Brian (13:16) Effective, hopefully. Bernie Maloney (13:17) Awesome. Do you go for blood metrics or blood diagnostics? Brian (13:21) Yeah, diagnostics for sure. Bernie Maloney (13:23) Yeah, so now you're starting to get some hints about how you can start to shift the mental model. What you're really doing with Agile, y 'all, is you're shifting the culture, and culture is hard because it's not visible. The tools, the processes, the practices that folks like Brian and I will teach and coach, they're super visible, they're super valuable, but they're often not enough to start to change things. So, Brian, would you say most of your listeners are familiar? familiar with the language of Tuchman of forming, storming, norming, and performing. Brian (13:56) I'd say there's probably a good percentage, yeah. Bernie Maloney (13:58) Cool. I actually like to draw a Satir curve. So Bruce Tuckman, Virginia Satir, they were contemporaries. They were both just researching human systems. So Virginia did a performance axis on the vertical and a time axis on the horizontal. And the way Virginia described it is you're kind of going along in a certain status quo. And so you're kind of along that baseline. And then a foreign element enters and some change. And then you descend into chaos. And you can't see it. like your performance goes down until you have a transformative idea and then through some practice and integration, you rise to a new status quo. This happens to people all the time when they introduce changes in their life like New Year's resolutions. I'm going to get fit and healthy this year. You know, it's a beach body time. And you start doing it and it's like, this is so hard. You're in chaos. And what human beings want to do is they want to go back to the way things were instead of moving through. OK, this happens when you introduce agile into your organization. You'll hear Agilist talk about this as the Agile antibodies. You introduce it, this is so hard, and people want to go back to the way things were instead of kind of moving through. So the tools, the processes, the practices, they're really good, but they're not powerful enough. You got to start changing the culture. Culture is like what we all swim in, but climate is something that you can start to affect. So climate is a little bit closer in to your team, and you can start talking about these mental models. Like when I was at TiVo, I was hired into TiVo to bring Agile in because I had shipped TVs, I knew about Agile. And I was hired in on, I think I can say this now because we're more than a decade past. Have you all ever streamed anything? Yeah, okay. So TiVo was working on that in like 2009, 2010. I got to see that stuff and I was like, really wish I had taken off for them. But that program... Brian (15:42) yeah. Bernie Maloney (15:54) disbanded, okay, and the culture kind of spread in the organization. And I knew that this was a possibility, so when I brought it in, I made sure I didn't just work with my team that was doing a Skunk Works project, where we were just kind of doing some internal development that we weren't, you know, or stealth is probably a better word these days. So a stealth program inside of TiVo that you couldn't talk about. I knew that... when Agile would spread, it would hit some of this resistance, these antibodies. And so I made a case for bringing in people from outside my team so that it was familiar. And when that program disbanded, it organically spread on the cloud side of TiVo because of some of this stuff. So within your own team, you can kind of create a climate. And then when you start to see results like that, that's going to start attracting kind of the rest of the culture that's there. But these mental models, like shifting from mechanism to organism can really help an organization recognize where their limiting beliefs are about how things go. And it's going to be reflected in language. So if you like dive into anthropology a little bit, you're going to recognize that it's really well established. You can change a culture by starting to change the language. And all of us, okay, if you're observing what's going on in Eastern Ukraine here in 2024, that's what's going on. with the Russian occupation, they're changing the language because that's going to change the culture. That's why they're doing stuff like that. So, and even language starts to shape the mental models that you've got. A good example of something like that was when European, you know, when European explorers is the language I'll use, came to the Americas, the natives didn't really have a language for ship. And so they saw these people coming in floating on the water. And that was the way that they could describe it. So even language kind of gets into a cultural sort of a thing. So these are techniques that you can put into your toolkit. Start shifting the language to start shifting the culture, which can kind of help with the mental models. When you got the mental models, that's where the language starts to come from. If you don't have the mental models, you're probably not going to have the language. And I encourage all the folks I work with, start shifting from the whole idea of mechanism to organism. Okay, Brian, was that 15 minutes? Did I go on for as long as I predicted I would? Brian (18:27) About 15 minutes. Yeah. No, but I think that's a good point. There's a thing that I'll talk about a lot of times in my classes where I would all say, you know, the waterfall paradigm is one that's based on manufacturing. And there's a false understanding of what we're doing as manufacturing and it's not. It's more research and development. So you have to kind of shift the process to be one that's more conducive. to research and development. So that's very much in line with what you're talking about here. I love that. Bernie Maloney (19:01) Yeah. Do you think people would appreciate some book references that can kind of like help you? Okay. So specifically on that whole ethos of experimentalism that you just touched on, Brian, I'm currently going through Amy Edmondson's The Right Kind of Wrong. Really good book. Now, Amy is well known because she helped establish psychological safety as a super important topic in organizations. Brian (19:07) absolutely. Absolutely. Bernie Maloney (19:30) So she was coupled, I think, with Project Aristotle at Google. And in this book, she unpacked some really interesting stuff. She talks about failure, and there's types of failures. There's basic, there's complex, and there's intelligent failures. OK, intelligent failures, they're just native to science. You know things are going to go wrong. You're going to have Thomas Edison, the I Found 1 ,000 Ways. to do a light bulb wrong, sort of. That's like intelligent failure. Basic failure, she breaks down into, let's see, neglect and inattention. And those are the things that you really want to start to squeeze out of a system. With that mental model of a mechanism, I would say a lot of, call it management, tends to think of a lot of failures as basic failures. And that's where blame starts to come into a system. Okay, so now we're back into psychological safety. Okay, where you want to establish, you know, that was an honest mistake. Hence the talk title of make new mistakes. Okay, so you can have processes and procedures that can kind of squeeze out some of those basic failures. Complex in the middle is really interesting to talk about. As I'm getting into the material, she unpacks... Now, complex failures are those chain of events, you know, Brian (20:30) Yeah. Yeah. Bernie Maloney (20:54) This thing and this thing and this thing all had to line up and go wrong at the same time for this catastrophic failure to go on. And in medicine, which is where her original research was, they talk about it as Swiss cheese. And she says, if you go into a lot of medical administrators' offices, you're going to find some model of Swiss cheese there. Because they talk about it's like all the holes have to line up for something to go sideways on you. So complex failures. It's a chain of events, a bunch of little things. And she points out that in the research, these often happen when you have an over -constrained system where there's no slack, where you're trying to operate with, get this, Brian, 100 % efficiency. You're trying to load everybody up. So that is just like, it's not just juice on psychological safety, but like, looking at the whole idea of intelligent failures that we want to encourage versus constraining out basic failures versus working to reduce those complex failures and not just thinking complex failures are basic failures, but they're systemic failures that then might be part of the system, might be part of the mental model that's going on that's there. So super juicy stuff. Brian (22:11) Yeah, yeah, that's really good stuff. I've always loved Amy's work and I feel, you know, silly calling her Amy. But Amy Edmondson's work has always been great. Yeah, Professor Edmondson. She, the work on psychological safety, I think was just amazing. And the examples she used in her research are amazing. And, you know, all the stuff with Project Aristotle. Bernie Maloney (22:20) Okay, Professor Edmondson, yeah. Brian (22:36) I love the concept of psychological. I mean, again, not to make this the topic of our podcast, but, you know, I love the idea that they, they, they found that psychological safety was, so foundational that nothing else mattered. That if you didn't have that, that not no matter what else you layered on top of it, it would not fix the problem that you didn't have psychological safety. Bernie Maloney (22:58) Yep. And that's one of the reasons why I say Agile is actually a social technology more than anything else. I mean, that's why it's people and people over processes and tools. This is really a social technology that we deal in. Brian (23:10) That's a great way to put it. I love that social technology. Awesome. I love that. Bernie Maloney (23:14) So kind of talking about Amy and psychological safety and kind of all these systems that we're talking about, another mental model that I like to give particularly my product owners, going back to that Mobius loop. and like on the right hand side is all about delivery, okay, that's where you give team solutions to build. That's what a lot of organizations do. Versus on the left hand side with discovery, it's all about problems to solve. So I like to encourage my clients to instead of just giving people solutions to build, give them problems to solve. Now, for product owners, if you imagine like an onion that's kind of stretched out left to right, so kind of an odd long little onion. Brian (23:41) Yeah. Bernie Maloney (23:58) and on the far right is your sprint. And then as you go to the left, you're at a release, and further out to the left, you're in roadmap, and way further out into the left, you're into these vague things like vision. So product owners kind of deal with this whole span of things. And in between, product and sprint goals start to make things a little bit more concrete. Okay, and... One of the things I'll do for my product owners is I'll take that Mobius loop and I'll overlay it on a planning onion like that and go, do you get to see how, like what we're talking about here, you're starting out way vague in discovery and you're getting way more concrete as you get into delivery and into the sprint. And really the job of Agile and Scrum is both. It's not just about turn the crank on the machine. In fact, I think it's unfortunate that there's a book title out there of twice. the work in half the time. I actually like to pitch this as more it's about twice the value with half the stress. Okay, now as you imagine that Mobius loop kind of overlaid, one of the things I'll unpack for folks is when you're way out in that vision area, there's a lot of uncertainty that's there, okay? And you're actually going to have to do discovery. You may have to run some experiments. Brian (24:58) Yeah. Bernie Maloney (25:24) Okay, and it's only as you get closer into delivery that you want to get closer to certainty. And really, that's kind of the job of a product owner is squeezing uncertainty out of the system. Initially through discovery of the problem to solve, who to solve it for, what the market is, but it's the job of the whole team in Agile to squeeze that uncertainty out of the system. Brian, I'm sure you've had folks like talk about spikes. You ever have people get wrapped around the axle about like including spikes in their product backlog? Brian (25:48) Yeah, for sure. yeah, for sure. Bernie Maloney (25:54) Cool, the way that I frame that up, okay, so here's a mental model. That's just technical uncertainty that you've uncovered. Great, okay, so now we've got to go squeeze that uncertainty out of the system. So stop getting wrapped around the axle on stuff like this. Just like stop trying to plan and predict things. Instead, kind of get into sense and respond on all of them. And there, I've kind of brought it around full circle for you, Brian, for where we started. Brian (26:09) Yeah, no. No, that's great. That's great stuff. And I love the fact that we can bring it back full circle. Well, this is fascinating. And like you said, we could press play and go on this for another half hour very easily. But we'll be respectful of people's time here and keep it to our normal time length. Bernie, I can't thank you enough for coming on. I really appreciate you sharing your experience with us. And... what you've learned over your years of working in this profession. Bernie Maloney (26:50) Thank you so much for asking me, Brian

Join Brian and John Barratt as they delve into the current state of the agile industry, exploring the impact of economic downturns on agile coaches and Scrum Masters, and discover innovative strategies to navigate these challenging times. Overview In this episode, Brian and John Barratt dissect the current state of the agile industry, focusing on the effects of economic downturns on agile coaches and scrum masters. They discuss the reasons behind organizational layoffs and cost-cutting measures, emphasizing the need for innovation to thrive during challenging periods. The conversation shifts to redefining the roles of scrum masters and agile coaches, highlighting the importance of delivering value and outcomes rather than merely facilitating meetings. John introduces two essential resources—the Agile Coaching Growth Wheel and the Agile Coaching Code of Ethics—to support agile practitioners in their professional development. The episode concludes with a discussion on the significance of mentorship and continuous improvement within the agile community. Tune in for invaluable insights and practical tools to enhance your agile journey. Listen Now to Discover: [1:08] - Brian welcomes Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Team Coach®, & Certified Enterprise Coach®, and host of the Clean At Work podcast, John Barratt. [4:42] - John reveals the core issues behind struggling organizations and shares how innovation can allow an organization to thrive during challenging times. [5:50] - Brian and John analyze the impact of economic downturns on organizations and agility, offering strategies to navigate these challenging times successfully. [10:04] - Brian and John explore the role of Scrum and Agile in an economic downturn. [16:08] - Join Brian and the Mountain Goat Software team for not only a Certified ScrumMaster® class but a full year of membership, learning, and support from Mike Cohn, Brian, and the Agile Mentors Community. You don’t have to lead alone. [17:09] - Brian poses an opportunity to expand the definition of done of Scrum leadership. [19:43] - John introduces the Agile Coaching Growth Wheel and the Agile Coaching Code of Ethics as powerful resources to help Agile practitioners and leaders enhance their skills and progress in their development. [23:42] - John shares the tool of Agile Scoping, based on From Contempt to Curiosity by Caitlin Walker, to lean into Scrum success within an organization. [32:25] - Brian shares a big thank you to John for joining him on the show. [33:04] - We invite you to share this episode with a friend and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. [33:57] - Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. [34:16] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. References and resources mentioned in the show: John Barratt Clean At Work podcast Scrum Events Meetup #93: The Rise of Human Skills and Agile Acumen with Evan Leyburn The Agile Army - John Barratt Agile Coaching Growth Wheel Agile Coaching Code of Ethics Agile Scoping From Contempt to Curiosity by Caitlin Walker Agile 2024 - The European Experience - Manchester Agile Coach Camp UK Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. John Barratt is a Certified Enterprise Coach® (CEC) and Certified Scrum Trainer® (CST), passionate about helping individuals, teams, and organizations achieve their best through agile coaching approaches. With a background in the military and a keen interest in systemic modeling, John constantly seeks new ideas and innovations to support organizational resilience and agility. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We are here for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I am with you as always, Brian Milner, and with me today, I have a good friend of mine that I've been trying to get on the show for a while. Mr. John Barrett is with us. Welcome in, John. John Barratt (00:14) Thank you for having me Brian. It's been a while. We've been trying. We're here today. I'm really pleased. Brian (00:18) Yeah, very, very excited. John and I have seen each other at conferences for years. We've crossed paths. And I kind of jokingly said to him, I'm threatening to have a conversation with you not at a conference at some point. And that was kind of how we started this. For those who aren't familiar with John and his work, John works with a company called Agile Affinity. John Barratt (00:34) Hahaha! Brian (00:43) He is a certified Scrum trainer, a certified team coach, and certified enterprise coach. So he has the holy trifecta of Scrum Alliance certifications there from the guide community. He's a coach and trainer. Couple of interesting things. First of all, we'll talk a little bit about this, but John has his own podcast called the Clean at Work podcast that we can talk about here a little bit. But another interesting thing that he told me before, I didn't realize this, but John actually started in the military. So do you want to say anything about that? How long were you in the military? John Barratt (01:19) Yeah, so I was in the military for six years, joined accidentally when I was 18. So I went into the career office with a friend who was joining. And they were like, you're a bright lad, you can earn all of this money. So it was either go to university and getting lots of debt or join the army, get lots of training and get paid and see the world. So no thoughts of joining before that day accidentally joined. Did six years including a tour of Iraq. And the important thing about that for me is when I left, I felt really isolated. So Army is all about team, right? Team focus. Left the Army, was in IT, and it felt totally different. People were there stabbing me in the back, not supporting me. And then I found this thing called Agile, which was about teams again. And this thing called Scrum, where it was a team game. I was like, this is what I've been missing. Where's this been for the last two years since I left the army? And the rest is history. I did do a keynote at Central Agile Spain. I'm not sure what year, but it is on YouTube for anyone who's interested in hearing more about how the army is actually rather agile in my humble opinion. Brian (02:22) Yeah. That's awesome. We'll find that and put that in the show notes here. So if people are interested in finding that, they can go and watch that. John Barratt (02:45) Yeah, we'll have to dust it out of the archives. Brian (02:48) Well, yeah, yeah, I'm sure we can find it. But we were talking before this about our topic and I think this is going to be a topic that's interesting to a lot of people. Really, really kind of diving into the state of the industry right now and what we're seeing as far as the economy in the agile industry. You know, there's there's several organizations that have laid people off You know, there's there's less demand at the moment in the coaching kind of realm So kind of what's behind that the the shifts and you know What might be driving this kind of thing? So I know John you got some opinions on this. So let us have it John Barratt (03:18) Mm -hmm. Yeah, so I don't want to talk too much about the global economics. I don't pretend to be an expert on why we're seeing a recession. We can talk about, you know, COVID and the cost of that and also the war in Ukraine and, you know, all of the pain and suffering that that's caused much more than, you know, what we're seeing, which is, you know, a few people being laid off. So I don't want to go into that. But what I do want to really explore is, so if an organization is struggling, there's two elements. for that. Do they try and cut back as much cost as possible or do they try and innovate themselves out of that recession? Do they try and do something different and in a unique way? Unfortunately what I'm seeing a lot of is the first one which is cut back, reduce cost as much as possible and that's to the detriment of the the Scrim masses and and agile coaches that we see and I'm going to talk a little bit why they are the ones that often are in danger in a minute. Instead of where they should go, which my bias opinion should go, right? What I'm trying to do in the company that I run is to actually lean into that as an opportunity and try and innovate and see, well, what is possible in this new, exciting world that we're perhaps moving into? Where do we need to go when organizations are struggling? What are the opportunities, an example, AI that we've seen and what difference will that make in the next few years? I mean, who knows? Brian (05:14) Yeah, yeah, I think it's fascinating and you know, there's something I've talked about with some friends for several years and that is that I think there's sort of a, boy, I don't know how deep we want to go on this, but you know, you have a lot of executives now that get hired to come into a company and it's gamesmanship because the idea is I've got to increase our... our stock price by however many percentage points. And my bonus is tied to that. The more I can increase it, the more I get a bonus. Well, it's kind of like if you go to a team and tell them, hey, can you do more story points? They can certainly game that and all of a sudden have more story points. Well, the same thing with a short -term kind of executive. If you're in an organization and you're only going to be there for a couple of years, And you know your site is, if I can raise it three percentage points, I get a bonus. Well, there's a lot of easy cuts I can make that all of a sudden I've gone up three percentage points. But the long term of that company has not benefited. It's only the short term. And it just feels like, I don't know if it's a day trader thing, if that's really why this is kind of becoming more prevalent or not. But it seems like investing is kind of more of the short term. Now, and it used to be when you buy a stock, you'd buy it for 10, 20 years because you believed in that company and you expected to pay off over the long run. There's still a little of that, but it seems much more short -sighted. And I think that's trickled down to our, like I said, I don't know how deep we want to get on this. I think that's trickled down to our executives. And I think from the executive, that's trickled down to the employees. And that's really affected how... John Barratt (06:41) Mm -hmm. Brian (07:06) you know, when we've had layoffs and we've had downturns in the economy that just, hey, this is an easy way for us to show an increase in profits. John Barratt (07:15) Yeah, I think that's a really good point. It reminds me of Craig Lammon's laws, structure leads culture. And when we talk about structure, we don't ever just mean the hierarchy, we mean the bonus system, how people are rewarded and paid and all of those things. And so if you're rewarding shortism by giving these execs bonuses based on Brian (07:34) Yeah. John Barratt (07:41) profit for this year or as you said stock increase by 3 % then they will cut costs because what looks good for short term and for stocks is to have the minimum operational expense possible right if they can keep that as low as possible then that looks like a solid company because they're keeping controlling costs they talk about and and If they're working on margins and profits start to go down, which is what we're seeing as a trend at least UK, US, I can't say if it's completely global, but it seems like a large percent of the company and the organizations are going in that way, then what they do is to keep their margins so that they get their bonus is they start to reduce that, right? Because they need to keep that buffer. If they were to do what I'm suggesting, which is to lean into that and perhaps spend a little bit, spend some money to make some money, or at least keep it lying and try some innovative stuff, then that's high risk for them. Hmm. Brian (08:50) Yeah. Yeah, I've seen things before that have said that when there is economic downturns, that their evidence shows that the companies that invest more during the economic downturns actually end up increasing their positions to a much greater extent when the downturn starts to turn around because... John Barratt (09:02) Mm -hmm. Brian (09:14) they haven't just set idle or they haven't tried to reduce, they've tried to invest and now they're positioned to really take advantage of it once the economy starts flowing again. I'm not like you, I'm no economic expert, I'm no economist. So I don't know all the ins and outs of what's causing that. But it certainly has caused pain in our sector. And I think a lot of sectors, because I have I know lots of people who have gone through layoffs, not just in the tech industry recently. So I guess kind of the question that I ask about this as far as the agile community is concerned is, if we were delivering value, right? If it was undeniable that what we were doing was increasing profits, increasing value to our customers, I think that would make it a lot. harder for these kind of layoffs to happen. So I don't want to entirely say, hey, it's bad leadership, right? I think we have to take ownership a little bit. John Barratt (10:23) Yeah, and I'm going to say something I think is quite controversial here, which I actually blame servant leadership for this. So I know in the latest version of the Scrum Guide, we use the word true leadership, but I still like the word servant leadership. And I've actually changed my mindset and how I teach these things over the last few years because of this, because we've started to see this trend. Brian (10:28) Go for it. All right. John Barratt (10:51) And I've seen it in organizations where I've worked, I've left one year later, and then they've made all the agile coaches redundant. And I think it's down to how we use and perceive servant leadership. So historically, I was always, you know, Scrum Master or Agile Coach is the great person in the background. They let everyone else take the credit. They're there to help and support the team and to do all of that stuff, which is great, right? until someone with a balance sheet comes along and goes, what are all these scrum masters who aren't delivering any value, right? They're an overhead. They're seen as an overhead. Not delivering any value. No one can even tell me what value they've created. These developers over here, they're doing great. And the product owner is really maximizing the value of this product. But these scrum masters, they don't add any value. Because that's what we told them to do, right? We taught them to... Brian (11:29) Yeah. John Barratt (11:49) give everyone else the credit and serve everyone else and be in the background. So I think we've got a lot to blame, Brian, as trainers for, well, I don't know how you've taught it in the past, but I feel a little bit guilty. Don't worry, I've got the answer, but I just want to hear from you, what you, where you are with that one. Brian (12:04) No, no, no, no. Yeah. I'll tell you my opinion and you'll tell me if I'm correct or not. Yeah, no, I agree. I definitely think that's part of it. But maybe this will be a little controversial. I kind of spoke about this recently at the Scrum Gathering in my talk. In the trend that we've seen, John Barratt (12:15) Yeah! Brian (12:40) that I kind of talk about the diminishing of the perception of value of the Scrum Master. And I think that there's kind of multiple parts to that. I think part of it could be, hey, leadership doesn't really understand the value. But I think that there is a secondary part of that, that they're not seeing the value. And if they're not seeing the value, then I think that that's John Barratt (12:48) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Brian (13:08) that rest on us. I think that we have to partly do a better job of helping them to understand it, but partly doing a better job of delivering it. And again, don't want to get too controversial here, but in our industry, in our training industry, You know, we've done lots of two day classes. We've done lots of things where we get people out the door and then they're in place and they're doing things. And the follow -up, you and I both know the follow -up is so important. You can't just take a two day class and then you're set for life. It's two days, but that's a kickoff and you got to continue that. and if I, if I take a two day class and I kind of slide backwards a little bit from that class and I get in and I'm a scrum master, there's, John Barratt (13:43) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Brian (14:01) Unfortunately, I think there's a lot of scrum masters out there who see their job as meeting scheduler. I'm here to schedule meetings, and that's the value I bring. Well, I can't blame a leader for letting that person go, because anybody can schedule meetings. It doesn't really take a lot of skill to do that. John Barratt (14:08) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Brian (14:26) The skills that we should be adding are those soft skills, the conflict resolution and understanding the personality types that make up our team. And essentially what I talked about in my talk was that first phrase of the Agile Manifesto, individuals and interactions over processes and tools. It's about individuals and interactions. We have to know the people that make up our team, not every team in the world, but our team. And we have to know. how they work best together. And I think people who do that, there's enormous value for that. So I would propose to you there's a shared blame, right? I think there's a blame there that we need to do a better job of showing the executives, but we also need to do a better job of actually providing value for the executives. John Barratt (14:58) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm just, I was just, you know, I'm new to running CSMs and things like that. And one of the things I've brought in is a follow -up session. So, you know, a month after the training, they can have 30 minutes and we can talk about stuff. And that's really where you appreciate that the CSM isn't enough, right, to be a Scrum Master because you... There's only so much you can do, but the thing that always lacks, at least I haven't managed to perfect it yet, is those soft skills, right, which are the things that are important because you can't cover that in half an hour, an hour, right? All of those things are a full one, two, well, I'm being generous, just touching the sides with a one, two day course in some of those. And it's good to see the Scrim Alliance moving into some of those, you know, competency based or what they call skills based. courses where we can go a bit deeper into those key things. Because they're talking about, well, how can I do this? And in my head, it's obvious, but it's clearly not. So there's a huge gap between putting someone on a two -day course and thinking they can be a scrum master. And we do see a lot of bad scrum masters in the industry. And it certainly does cost everyone, even the good ones, some credibility. Right? Because... And if there's more ones, and it's not bad because they're bad people or trying to do a bad job, it's just that they haven't been equipped to do the job, right? Yeah, it's as simple as that. Brian (17:03) Yeah. At one of the tables I was at at the recent guide retreat at the Scrum gathering, we were having a discussion around this. And one of the things that kind of struck me as that was going on was, you know what it sounds like? It sounds like we don't have a stringent enough definition of done. Like when we think about someone who's you're now ready to be a Scrum master, well, that definition of done right now is a two day class. Right? And. John Barratt (17:22) Mm -hmm. Brian (17:32) I think we have to put in the expectation that, no, this is a component of that definition of done, but there's actually more that you need in order to, you know, this is an important role. This is somebody who is shepherding and guiding a team to be successful in this. So if someone's not qualified in doing that, it's no wonder that we see a bunch of bad scum out there because the person leading it isn't qualified, you know? John Barratt (17:38) Hmm. Yeah, and actually, I was just thinking an apprenticeship approach would be a much better idea, right, for this type of work. I often give the metaphor in my classes that agile coaching is a craft, Scrum Mastery is a craft. And imagine you're a carpenter, you don't get better at being a carpenter by reading lots of theory about good joints and all of this stuff. You know, you pick up a few things, you get better at Scrum Mastery or agile coaching. Brian (18:07) Yeah. John Barratt (18:29) by working and getting feedback. Our work is with the people, right? And people are a lot more complex than would, so we have to do even more of it to get any good. And of course, in carpentry, you wouldn't think about, we'll do a two -day training course. You would do an apprenticeship, right? And they do it for years before they become like a master carpenter. Yet we have scrimmasters after two days. Brian (18:58) Yeah. Yeah, no, I completely agree. And for the organization, I know when you've seen organizations that have sort of that layer, that hierarchy of we have Scrum Masters, but we have coaches, and we have enterprise coaches. When you have that kind of structure where you can have the phrase we use as mentor and be mentored. And if you can be in that place where you mentor others and you're also being mentored, John Barratt (19:21) Mm -hmm. Brian (19:28) That I think is really key to reaching the next level, to being able to kind of grow into what it is that you want to become in this industry. John Barratt (19:39) Yeah, I mean, I can't solve that problem very easily myself. You know, we've got a certified team coach and enterprise coach in the Scrim Alliance. It needs to be a bit more of a gap, I think, between that and CSPSM and we'll see what comes out in the next few years. But there is a couple of resources that I have worked on to try and help with this. So I've been on a mission to try and professionalize the world of agile coaching for at least five years. And the two things that I've found that have helped most people, is something called the Agile Coaching Growth Wheel, which you may have heard of. We'll put the link in the chat to that, which has kind of all of the competencies that we think you need in Agile Coaching, which is the set of competencies that a Scrum Master needs. So not Agile Coach, Agile Coaching, Scrum Master, Agile Coach, or any, you know, job title could be anything, right? It doesn't really matter. So that's a really useful tool. gives you all the areas, but it also gives you guidance, like a one to five guidance that almost uses the apprenticeship type thing. I can't remember all the levels, I think it uses like the Drift for scale, but it says at level one, you should be able to do these sorts of things. At level two, you should be able to do these sorts of things. And that gives people at least a starting point. You don't know what you don't know, right? Brian (20:58) Right. No, I think that's awesome. And we definitely will put that in our links and make sure that people can find that. Yeah, you're right. That kind of apprenticeship idea, I know that I could not have gotten to where I am without the mentors I've had. John Barratt (21:15) Mmm. Brian (21:18) And it's people who have, for no benefit of their own, have taken their own time to say, I'm going to invest time in this person and help them reach the next level. And I've tried to carry that forward as I've grown in this career as well, because I think it's important. I think we have to help the next group that's coming along. Yeah. John Barratt (21:44) Mm -hmm. I was thinking becoming a CST is almost like that apprenticeship type system, right? Where you have to do the co -trains with different people. They're like mentors, right? Different diversity, different types and groups. And you learn, both people learn from doing the co -train. And I think personally, it'd be a shame if they ever... Brian (21:54) Yeah. John Barratt (22:16) remove that concept because I think it's the closest we've got to an apprenticeship. Brian (22:21) Yeah. Yeah, and it works, right? I mean, I think that it does a good job of getting people to the level they need to be. There's still a lot, I mean, that doesn't do it all on its own, but it is, you know, I think anyone who's been through it, I think you would probably agree with this as well, is, you know, that was a foundational part of becoming a CST for me, is being able to observe and watch others and learn from them and... get feedback on how I was doing it. So I think you're right. That could be a very intriguing addition if there was someone who kind of incorporated that into the process. And I think that would give organizations kind of a confidence to say, I can trust this person. John Barratt (23:10) Which is what we really want with the CCCTCs, right? It's that stamp. I can trust that person. Second tool I wanted to highlight was the Agile Coaching Code of Ethics. So this was an initiative we did with the Agile Alliance. And the beauty of when we created this code of ethics, it was for people who were just starting out as well as experienced professionals. So you can read through that and that's kind of your rule sheet of Brian (23:25) Yeah. John Barratt (23:40) I'm new to this. This is the minimum standard we expect from a Scrum Master or an Agile coach in this industry. Because you don't know what you don't know again. But we've tried to make it as simple as possible. A simple list of these are the things you should definitely do if you want to be ethical in your work. Brian (24:00) Yeah. Yeah, that's a good resource as well. And we'll make sure we have that linked. Was there another resource as well that you wanted to mention, or is it just those two? John Barratt (24:12) So it's the Agile Coaching Growth Wheel and the Agile Coaching Code of Ethics. So we've talked a lot about the problem of where we're at, and we've given a couple of pointers. I wanted to talk a little bit about how I've changed my direction from this original kind of servant leadership type focus, which seems to be having some... Brian (24:36) Yeah. John Barratt (24:40) traction and benefit and value to people. And it's a couple of tools combined. So I created something a couple of years ago called Agile Scoping, which was based on Clean Scoping. So Clean Scoping is something that Caitlin Walker created based on Clean Language around how she scoped out a new piece of work. If you want to know more, then I highly recommend her book from Content Curiosity. Brian (24:44) Awesome. John Barratt (25:10) Bit biased, but one of the best books I've ever read. Not an agile book at all, but just a truly incredible story about how she's used clean language and something we call systemic modeling, which is using clean language in groups, with youths that have been kicked out of school, for example, and how they went from all individuals to suddenly kind of helping and supporting and understanding each other. Brian (25:31) Hmm, yeah. John Barratt (25:40) So great book. But anyway, Agile Scoping was based on that and it starts off with a discovery phase. We call that initial scoping, which is setting out kind of, is this work set up for success? So is the person in charge actually got enough influence over the system to actually make any change? So if you are doing Scrum. Do they have permission to actually change the structure into something that is actually going to help Scrum succeed? Have they tried different things before? And also this thing called congruency. So it's what they're saying aligned to what they're doing. So asking for those examples of, okay, you're saying that this, have you tried that before? Those sort of things. Very high level, just checking it out. And you can do that in an interview as well. So this isn't just for an external person. I always think that interviews should be two -way, right? It's not just a one -way thing. I want to check that if I'm signing up 40 hours a week or however many, that this is an organization that actually wants to be agile. I mean, I always put my hand out to the people on my training and people I meet at conferences where they're really struggling, right? And it's a really hard environment. And I always think, wow, you've got way more patience than I have. I really respect that. but my patients' levels are very low. So if I'm going to work with a client, I need to have a feeling that they can work at a pace, right? Brian (27:20) Yeah, right. Right. John Barratt (27:21) So that's level one and that's fine. Then we do an organizational scoping phase where you work with as many people as possible. You're looking at the problems that the organization says they've got, what the culture is now, where they want it to be, running some workshops, finding out what's happening. And again, we call it scoping because you can scope it to the level that you've been brought into. So if you're a Scrum Master working with one team and it's... One product owner, small product, that's fine. That's your scope if it's a whole organization, much wider. At the end of that, you create a coaching plan with the organization. So you have a session and you agree up to four outcomes is what I've found. So we move into outcome -based approach. So even if you skip all of the other stuff, what I would say is move away from any output thinking. As a scrum -rosterer, Brian (28:10) Yeah. John Barratt (28:18) even if it's just in your yearly appraisal, make it clear these are the outcomes that we're looking for. And these are more business related outcomes or things that are going to actually make a difference to the organization. So it could be things like make more money for the organization, could be increase employee engagement, increase customer engagement, number of active users in your mobile app, whatever those are. But they're nothing to really do with Agile, they're to do with... Brian (28:42) Yeah. John Barratt (28:47) that the organization wants to set. Those go into a coaching plan. We have a coaching agreement canvas that you can use to put all of that in. And then it's really clear, like these are the things that I'm going to help and support you with as a Scrim Master or Agile coach. There's a bit more risk, right? Because if you don't meet them, then you've got to have a conversation, but at least then it's visible, right? These are what I'm saying I'm going to help with. This is what you've said you want help with. And now we're going to do a number of experiments to try and get there. And that's where we get into that continuous improvement cycle of trying to involve, adapt, inspect, work on all of those things that are happening within your team, within your department, within your organization, depending on where your scope is, constantly evolving and looking at. where we're at. We might have some lead -in indicators as well, perhaps in there to help us cycle time, lead time, throughput. Those can be useful, but really we're looking at end value and we're measuring our performance of a Scrum Master Agile Coach based on the value being given. We're not letting the product owner take all of that praise and credit. Of course, we don't want to be too arrogant and go too far the other way. It's a team effort. but we're at least putting our, you know, more, I think skin in the game is the thing. What I've seen in the past is, you know, bit of a puppy dog type thing, Scrum Master, ooh, shiny over here, great, shiny over there, no, skin in the game, this is a partnership, and we're gonna work on this together. Sorry, I spoke for a long time, though. Brian (30:16) Yeah. Love that. No, no, no. I love that. You were saying great stuff. And I mean, I love the bit about outcome -based kind of approaches to it. I think that's really, really important. I've always thought, you know, like the performance, I'm always really hesitant about performance -based kind of metrics. And I always want to shift more to output outcome -based kind of metrics, not output. And I think that because that's, You're right. A business doesn't care how agile we are. A business cares if we're increasing our bottom line, if we're increasing our membership, all the business goals that you might have. That's what they care about. And agile -ism means to that. John Barratt (31:17) Yeah, I have a big shiver when teams have like agile maturity models. Like the word maturity, first of all, like if I say to you, Brian, you're immature, Brian. You know, that's just like, why would you do that? And also if I, you know, it's many people have said agile is never the goal, right? We're never trying to be agile for agile sake. We're doing it to help organizations and, you know. Brian (31:23) Ha ha ha. John Barratt (31:44) Therefore, why would you want to know how mature a team is when that's not actually that important, right? Could be a very leading indicator, perhaps, of where you're trying to get to, but it scares me when I see those sort of things. Brian (32:04) Yeah, this is great. This is great stuff. And there's so I mean, from what you've said, there's so many good links that we're going to be able to put in our show notes for this. We'll also, by the way, make sure that people can get in touch with you, John, if they want to follow up and learn more individually from you, because that's always really important here as well. And I know it's conference season. There's a lot of conferences going on. And you were telling me you're going to be at the Europe. John Barratt (32:12) Mm -hmm. Brian (32:33) Agile 24 conference, right? John Barratt (32:36) Yeah, so I've decided to do my part for the environment and not fly out to America for the third time this year. So I'm going to be in the Agile Alliance Manchester in July. I'm doing two sessions there. One looking at product refinement using clean language and the other one how to help and support self -managing teams with Caitlin herself. So if you like the idea of the stuff I was talking with Caitlin. and that's the session for you. Also going to be in Agile Prague this year, Agile Coach Camp UK, which I run, but unfortunately that is full. So there is a waiting list if you did want to try and sneak into that. And I'm sure I'll be at a few other places as well. There's also my monthly meetup that I run with a number of other colleagues called Scrum Event. It's actually the second largest Scrum Alliance user group in the world. Brian (33:33) Awesome. John Barratt (33:34) and we tend to have some pretty cool speakers there, so watch out for that. Brian (33:40) That's awesome. Yeah. We'll try to link to all of that so that people can find it. But yeah, if you're going to be at any of those conferences or if you're on the fence about going to the conference, you can hear great speakers like John there. So make sure that if you do, that you go up and say hello and tell them that you were listening to the podcast and heard this and were interested. And that's why you're there. Well, John, I appreciate your time. We're recording this on a Friday afternoon for you. And I know that's really precious time at the end of a week. So I really appreciate you giving us your time here and sharing your knowledge with us. John Barratt (34:19) Thank you for inviting me and having me. It's been a blast. Brian (34:24) Absolutely.

Join Brian as he delves into the powerful response to his talk on neurodiversity at the Global Scrum Gathering in New Orleans, which emphasized small but significant changes to make environments more accommodating. Overview In this episode, Brian shares his memorable experience at the Global Scrum Gathering in New Orleans, emphasizing the event's stellar organization and inclusive atmosphere. He reflects on the success of his talk on neurodiversity, which resonated deeply with attendees and sparked meaningful conversations. Brian also underscores the importance of attending conferences for networking, learning, and expanding professional connections. Encouraging listener feedback and engagement, Brian hopes to inspire more inclusive practices within teams and the broader Agile community. Tune in for insights on fostering inclusivity, the value of professional gatherings, and much more. Listen Now to Discover: [1:08] - Brian warmly welcomes listeners and invites you to join an engaging conversation about the value and insights gained from Agile conferences. [2:45] - Brian kicks off with heartfelt gratitude to the behind-the-scenes teams whose hard work and dedication ensure these conferences run seamlessly and effortlessly. [5:04] - Brian celebrates the often-overlooked joys of conferences, from hearing fresh voices and engaging in hallway conversations to making meaningful connections and sparking innovative ideas. [9:57] - Brian highlights and commends the Scrum Gathering for its intentional efforts to accommodate and include attendees with neurodiversity and those with additional needs. [14:15] - Brian shares that the goal of his talk was to demonstrate how small changes can create a more inclusive environment, such as playing neurodivergent-friendly music, dimming bright lights, and establishing quiet spaces. [20:18] - Brian discusses the overwhelmingly positive response to his talk and expresses his hope that these inclusive practices will be adopted widely, transforming the way we all work with our teams. [23:08] - Brian encourages listeners to attend future conferences to gain new insights, broaden their horizons, and forge valuable connections. [24:20] - Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. [24:33] - We invite you to like and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast and pass this episode along to a friend. References and resources mentioned in the show: Slide Deck From Brian’s Talk #76: Navigating Neurodiversity for High-Performing Teams with Susan Fitzell Scrum Alliance’s Global Scrum Gathering AJR Brothers Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Agile Mentors, how the heck are you? How's your week going? Hope it's going pretty well for you. I wanted to spend some time with you on this week's episode because I just had an event that took place that was really, really a phenomenal event. And I wanna kind of share with you some personal insights that I had from it and just sort of give you a picture of what it's like. If you've never been to a conference before, Maybe I can entice you to maybe go to one. I think you'll benefit from it. And I think you'll kind of see your career maybe even go in new directions if you decide to go to one. We just had the global Scrum gathering that took place in New Orleans. That was the 2024 conference. And the Scrum Alliance has changed things up a little bit. I don't know if people are familiar with this or if you're aware of this, but... Scrimmelines used to have two conferences every year. They used to have one that was somewhere in the US, and then they would have another one that was mostly in Europe. But now they've kind of switched up their strategy. They're going to have one in the US one year. And then next year, it'll be somewhere else globally. So they're really leaning into that global title here for global Scrum gathering. Next year's, I believe they announced here at the end of our conference, is going to be at Munich. So still staying within Europe, but that's not always going to be the case. So there won't be one in the US next year. It'll be the first year that that happens. So every two years, if you're here in the US, you get a chance to attend. If you're somewhere else in the world, maybe there'll be one that appears in a location near you. And that might be a little bit more convenient for you to attend. But I want to talk about this one that was in New Orleans. And I have to start by just, I want to say to all the support staff, to all the people who volunteered their time from. from the teams that helped set up the rooms to the program team that helped kind of put this all together and create the environment and select the talks and everything else. Phenomenal job. Just phenomenal job. I couldn't have asked for it to have been run any better. I saw zero hiccups in my time there and just had a fabulous conference. It was a great time. Enjoyed the heck out of it. Enjoyed New Orleans. It's always great to realize I had not actually visited New Orleans prior to this of all the places. It's not very far from where I live, but for whatever reason, it was just one of those black holes in my map. It was one place I had never been to and it was a place I loved. I thought it was just amazing to meet some of the local people there. and to get a flavor of what it was like on Bourbon Street and Frenchman Street and some other parts of the town after the conference. It was just a really great experience. I was very pleased with the whole thing. And so I just want to make sure that that's out there, right? There's a lot of volunteers that go into working for a conference. I've been a part of that group from time to time. I've reviewed different submissions. If you're not familiar with that process, Speakers at a conference submit their ideas. It's no guarantee anyone's going to get picked. In fact, it's a very, very small percentage. They end up getting picked. So it's a very tough process for the reviewers. And it takes a team of them. They have different tracks that they take submissions in. And they kind of have to whittle those down. One of my friends who was on the team was describing to me, you might have one talk on, or you might think about a topic like daily scrums. And you might have five submissions on daily scrums that are all amazing talks. They all sound like they'd be incredible with great speakers. But somehow they have to whittle that down. They can't have five talks on Daily Scrums. They've got to limit it. And they've got to have talks on things that they feel the majority of the visitors are going to be interested in. So it's a thankless job that goes on behind the scenes. And I just want to publicly thank them. I know I got to rub shoulders with several of the people on different aspects of the teams and just really, really appreciate all the work that you guys did to make it such a successful conference. I really always enjoy the scrum gathering conferences. I think they're, they're, they're a fun event. they, they always have a Monday mingle kind of activity. That's always, something you, you write home about if you will, just something fun to do. this year we had a location was not very far from, the hotel so we could walk there. And just had lots of things that were going on there, food and drink and that sort of stuff. But it just gives you a nice kind of off campus place to unwind and interact with other people and kind of maybe meet some people that you wouldn't get a chance to otherwise. So I always appreciate some of those social events. Even though I'm an introvert, I just enjoy having different space, kind of a different opportunity to do that sort of thing. And I just want to say, you know, the talks I heard this year were incredible. I heard some really good first time speakers that had never spoken before. And I love the fact that, you know, they're doing that, that they are expanding and it's not just the same crop of people that you hear every single conference. You know, it's a different set of people and it really depends on your topic. It depends on what it is you're trying to talk about. So I was really thankful to get to hear some new voices there in our community. And the only thing that I wish I could change about that, and this is the same no matter what conference it is, every conference I have this issue, it always seems like the ones you want to go hear the most are if you're speaking, they're happening when you're speaking, or they're all grouped into the same time slot. And you'll get three or four talks that you really wanted to go to. And you got to pick. You got to choose one of those that you can go to and kind of just plug in there. I'm not one that likes to bounce between the different rooms. I don't have any problem if someone does that. I don't have any problem if someone does that in my talk. But I just like to commit. And that's kind of the way I look at it, is when I come in there, I'm committed, I'm here, I'm giving my full attention. I want to learn from this person. and leave with something I didn't know in advance. So really, really enjoyed that. There was a talk that was put on by women in Agile that was three new speakers that were three women who had not spoken before. Really enjoyed that and loved their approach. They have a mentor for each person that kind of helps them prepare and get ready for it. So that was awesome. Really enjoyed listening to that. And just... I don't want to call out any specific talk because they were all so good. I will say there have been years in the past when I have had sort of slots where I've thought, there's not really one I want to hear in this slot. So maybe I've set out or I've done something else. That wasn't the case for this one. Every slot had something I was like, I've really got to go hear that. I've got to hear that person talk or really want to hear about that topic. So just really enjoyed that. Couple milestones, kind of, I noticed that happened here. One of my mentors and someone I've had in the podcast, David Hawks was there and he's kind of publicly announced this now that he's retiring, he's stepping back a little bit from doing this stuff and he gave his last conference talk. So it was neat to be there to see his last one. He's a really engaging speaker and always has really deep kind of... needy content for you to chew over that you leave thinking about. So it was kind of an honor to be there for the last thing that he did at a conference. And the other thing to say is that I really kind of just enjoy the one -off conversations, the hallway conversations. There's breakfast and lunch every day. And when you do those, you sit down at a table, you've got to find a spot. And sometimes I'm just trying to find any open spot. But what I'm trying to do is find the table with people that I don't know, that I haven't met before, that I want to. maybe rub shoulders with and learn a little bit more about what they're doing their organizations. So those are a great time that they're kind of built in naturally to try to meet some new people. And you know, I'll tell you, I wore a little thing at this conference before it broke on me, but I had a little pin that was kind of my emotional, no, it was my social meter. That's what it was. And it had like a high and a low ranking on it. And you know, I'd start out every day with it on the high ranking. I'm ready to go. I'm excited. And as the day went on, it would kind of go a little bit further down. And by the end of the day, I was spent. I didn't really have any more I could give out. And I just wanted to wear that sort of a visual fair warning to people. If they saw me and they saw where my meter was, they could say, OK, Brian's kind of running low. Maybe. Maybe I'll wait till tomorrow and have that conversation. Not that I'm going to be mean or rude to anyone, but just there are times when you just are all empty. You're just out, and you don't have anything more that you can give. And that's certainly the way I feel sometimes at the end of some of these long days. I've been known sometimes to just go up and spend time taking a nap in my room, maybe doing some emails or something, just something to give me a break to go away. And that's sometimes something I need in these kind of big social environments. I do want to really, really congratulate the Scrum Alliance on one thing that I noticed particularly here in this conference. They clearly made an effort to make some accommodations for some different personality types, neuro types, and you know, I've shared with this podcast before that my talk here at the Scrum Gathering was on neurodiversity and how to be more inclusive of different neurotypes in your teams. I'll get to that talk in just a second. But there were things that I had been studying and learning about that were small accommodations that people could make that helped some of these different neurotypes. And it was clear that the Scrum Alliance had deliberately made an effort to do that. One thing that I didn't know was going to happen until I got there, for every keynote presentation they had on their big video monitor, they had transcription. So there was closed captioning of anything that was being said, which is a very important feature for some various neurodiversity types. And I was very, very pleased to see that. I just thought that was a good change that they made. Small change, not really anything big that they had to do to do that, but it makes a big difference for a segment of the population. And I'm really thankful that they did that. The other thing that I noticed that they did was they had a quiet room. There was a room that was right in the mix of all the other conference rooms where presentations were going on that was a quiet room. It was dim lighting. They had some nice cushy soft like beanbag chairs that were in there. They actually had like some soft quiet like atmospheric kind of effect noises going on like waterfalls and that sort of thing. Rain rainfall, ocean waves, things that were very peaceful and quiet. And they also had made available in that room earplugs for people. And for those that have noise sensitivities, sometimes you can walk into these conference rooms and I can say, I've been guilty of this as a speaker. I want to create an exciting atmosphere. So I blare the upbeat music as people are coming in just to get people in the right kind of excited mood. Well, if I have noise sensitivities, that's going to not only not be exciting, it's going to be painful. And having the ability for someone to self -regulate that and say, I'm going to put my earplugs in for this, because it's just a louder place. It's a louder room. Even just listening to certain talks, you would hear a talk next door where a speaker would just their plan for their talk was much more interactive. So there'd be a lot of audience participation and shouting outs and clapping and laughing and that sort of stuff. And it can be disruptive for the room next door. I don't fault any rooms for being more interactive or fun for the attendees, but you know, noise has a bleed through effect. And I was just happy that they thought that far ahead and said, you know, we're going to have some people here who might have that sensitivity to noise. And it doesn't cost very much for us to provide a handful of earplugs. I don't know how many of them were taken, but I would imagine there wasn't a ton. They didn't run out, as far as I know. But having a place like that, I took advantage of the quiet room. I knew that it was a place where I could go and collect my thoughts. And I would sit down with my laptop and maybe just make some notes of things I wanted to make sure I captured. No one was going to interrupt me. That was kind of the rule of the room. There was no talking in that room. So I could focus. I could come in there and do what I needed to do without disturbing anyone and really kind of recenter before I headed back out. There were some who used it for meditation and other things. And I have no problem with that. If that works for people, then I'm happy for them to do that. For me, it was just a quiet space. And I just needed a quiet space, somewhere away from all the hustle and bustle, what was going on. So just kudos to the Scrum Alliance there for that. I think that they made a couple of really intentional moves there to be more inclusive. And I, for one, as part of that neurodivergent community, really, really appreciated it. So thank you there to the Scrum Alliance. If anyone here is from the Scrum Alliance listening. Big kudos there for you on that. The other thing here is I do want to talk about my talk just briefly. And just to let you know that I did a lot of preparation for this talk. It really was the culmination of about a year's worth of research. I've done talks at other conferences before. I tried to let people know that this one was different for me. This one was very different because it was very personal. I was gonna be sharing things about my own medical diagnosis. And that's just not something that's common that I have in conference talks. I don't normally go into a conference talk and say, hey, here's what I was diagnosed with. So that made it very, very personal. But it's also something that is prevalent throughout my family. So I was sharing information from my family as well. Again, like I've said here on the podcast, I wouldn't share that if I didn't have permission. I don't volunteer that for others in my family. If they say that it's OK, then I will. If they don't, then I don't share that information. But it was very personal. And I was much more connected, I think, to the material. I really, really had a vested interest in the outcome. You know, I wanted to show some real practical ways that people could make small changes and become more inclusive. So that was my goal. And one of the things I tried to do, if you attended my talk, you may not even recognize all these things, but I wanted to first teach by demonstration. I wanted to kind of have things in place that... that would show that you can make small changes to be more inclusive. So just a couple of things I want to highlight here. One was a very, very, very subtle thing that I don't think anyone caught. But I did have music on that I turned down fairly quiet. I didn't want it to be that loud. I wanted to be loud enough for people to hear, but I didn't want it to be very loud. And I just had a playlist that was playing where I was playing one band in particular. I was playing a band called AJR. Some of you may be familiar with them, some of you may not, but AJR is a trio of brothers who are neurodivergent and their music is very neurodivergent friendly. They've sort of been seen as kind of, I don't know how to put it, but... figureheads, I guess, of neurodivergent movement. There's lots of neurodivergent people who go to their concerts. There's lots of commentary and stuff about how they're very open about that in their lyrics. So that was a slight little nod there. If anyone caught that, then congratulations. You caught the most subtle way that I did that. But that was one of the ways I was trying to make it a little bit more friendly. One of the other things I did, I turned down the lights in the room. There was overhead cans that you would have kind of typical in any kind of conference room. But they also had some like a chandelier that was over the middle of it. There were kind of some circles. And I found the light control panel and found out I could turn off the cans that were in the room and just have the overhead kind of chandelier. And it really kind of brought the light level down. It wasn't dark. It wasn't... so dark that you couldn't see in the room or anything like that. It was still enough that you could see. No darker than you would find in maybe a restaurant, right? But it was a lower level of light. And that was very intentional. I was trying to help people who had light sensitivities to not have to struggle or worry about that. So that was something I did intentionally. I. Probably the biggest thing I did was I set aside two tables at the back of the room that I call quiet tables. Most of the time you go to a conference, there's an expectation that you do some interactive kind of work there. I had a lot of data to get out, so I couldn't do as much interactivity as I normally do in a talk. But I did have one big activity that I did kind of towards the back part of my talk. And I wanted to have a couple of tables that if people just were not comfortable, group participation. They didn't want to have to talk to others. They wanted to just come and show up and take in the information. I wanted them to be able to do that. So I set aside two tables. I put a little sign on the table that said, this is a quiet table. If you sit here, please understand these seats are designated for people who don't want to be a part of group activities and would rather just sit quietly while we have any kind of a group activity. And I set those aside. And I. As people were coming into the room, I saw people that were starting to sit at those tables and I walked over and I just wanted to check on the people that were some of the first people sitting there and saying, I don't want to interrupt you. I just want to make sure that you've seen the sign so that you know what to expect here at this table. And I had these three wonderful women that were sitting at one of the tables and they responded very emphatically like, yes, no, we absolutely read that. We loved it and we felt like, hey, he gets us. And that just made my day. I was just so excited that they felt that way and they felt welcomed, right? That's kind of what I was trying to do is create a welcoming atmosphere that nobody felt left out. Everybody felt included, normal. I did some other things too, like we put out some little badges that said, embrace neurodiversity, that people could put on their name badges, just to kind of raise awareness across the conference from that point on. I also put little fidget toys at each spot that people could take with them. Just a small little fidget keychain kind of thing that people could have. Not anything terribly elaborate, but just a small little thing. So all these things were just ways I thought of in advance to try to make it a more welcoming environment for people to participate. Getting to the talk itself, as a speaker, I'm pleased with how it went. It kind of went the way I'd hoped it would go. One small technical thing with a poll that I did at the beginning, but you know now I'm kind of insider baseballing this and I don't really Didn't really Contribute hugely in any negative way. I was able to call out the numbers and we just moved on right That was not a major part of the presentation anyway So, you know, I'm I'm as pleased with how it went as I probably could have been for anything like that I I could tell things were resonating with people. I got nods. I got verbal agreement from people in different parts of the talk. So, you know, and we stay within our time box. We met that the way we needed to. So that all went pretty well. But you don't really know until after. And it's after that really kind of made my conference for me because... not just immediately after, but for the remainder of that conference. I spoke on Tuesday. It went on, the conference was Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. So for the remainder of day on Tuesday, into the night on Tuesday, and then before I left on Wednesday, I just had random people that would come up to me at various points and thank me for giving the talk. I had one person tell me, thank you and said, I felt seen. And that just almost brought a tear to my eye. I was so excited to hear that. And that was part of what I was really attempting to do there, is I wanted people to understand that there are differences in how people process things and how people's brains work. And hopefully we can take that back to our teams and change how we approach how we work with our teams. I'm not going to go too much into the detail of the talk. We will make the slides available here in our show notes. So if you want to see the slides like I gave the presentation, I gave it the presentation, we'll make that available for you. There's no recording of it, unfortunately. The Scrim Alliance doesn't do that. They don't record them and then publish them later. Some conferences I know do. do that, but the Scrum Alliance is not one of them. But I will make the slides available to you if you want to dig into that more. The other thing I'd say is if you really want to dig in the topic more, find my previous podcast episode, which we'll also put in the show notes. That was with Susan Fitzell. She is a specialist in that area and helped me to understand some things. And that was a kind of key episode. on that topic. So those are some places I can point you to if you want to get into that, the heart of that, that topic area. But, you know, hearing those kinds of things, those personal kind of congratulations and just people who I didn't know who'd come up and say, you know, they felt seen and that just made the conference for me. I was so pleased that that was the case. Because just as it was very personal for me, it was personal for them too. It connected to them on a very personal level. And I hope that that can make a change in our teams. I hope that that's something that some of those people who are in the room can take back and implement just one thing. One thing they can change in how they work with their teams. All in all, it was a great conference. I really enjoyed it. And Scrum Alliance just put on a great conference this year. as they always do. They always put on a great conference. So thanks to my friends at Scrum Alliance for inviting me and having me there to speak. Thank you for all the volunteers who worked on it. Thank you to each person that I had a conversation with, especially the new friends that I didn't really know before the conference. I... I really enjoy, and the ones that I haven't seen for a while that I kind of got to rub shoulders with there. Again, I really appreciate you coming up and saying hello. And I did have a few people from the podcast who came up and said, hey, listen to the podcast. That's always a pleasure when that happens. It just helps me to know that, hey, this is actually resonating. This is making an impact for people. So. I heartily appreciate that. If you ever see me at a conference, please do. Don't hesitate. Come up and say hello and tell me that you listen to the podcast. You'll make my day if you do that. So that wraps up Scrum Gathering 2024, New Orleans. I should say global Scrum Gathering. And if you didn't attend this year's, if you're in Europe, maybe consider attending the Munich one next year. I don't know where the following year is going to be in 2026, but it will be back here in the States somewhere. And we'll have to wait and find out where that's going to be. On my calendar, the next conference I have coming up is an exciting one for me. It's Agile 2024 that's taking place in Dallas. So if you go to the Agile Alliance, agilealliance .org, you can find information about that conference and join me there. I'm going to be talking about conflict and how we can have conflict competent teams. So I'm excited to talk about that and dive into that topic with everyone in Agile 2024. So. Just wanted to give you a brief recap of what happened there and what it was like, and give you an insider view of what it's like. If you haven't ever attended a conference, I encourage you to give it a shot, especially, you know, I'm based in the Dallas area. If you happen to be in the Dallas area and you're on the fence about attending the conference there in July, you got no excuse. It's in your backyard, right? It's right there. You'll hear some amazing speakers. You'll widen your network. You'll be surprised at kind of the connections you make and what you walk away with from a conference. So just highly encourage you to give it a shot. So that'll wrap us on this episode. It was just me, so I won't do a separate little closing thing. If you wanna give me any feedback on this, just reach out to me and send me an email podcast at mountaingoatsoftware .com and I'll get that. Or you can go to our Agile Mentors Community and post in our discussion forum there. That's a place where you can interact with me. As always, like and subscribe, all that social jazz. Make sure that you... You keep this in your inbox. We always appreciate that. And as we always ask, tell a friend. If you liked the episode, if you liked any of our episodes, pass that on to a friend and let them know about this podcast that you found. That's it for this time. We'll see you again on another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast.

Join Brian and Mike Cohn as they dissect the vital roles and responsibilities of the product owner, from story mapping to stakeholder management. This episode is a treasure trove for anyone looking to sharpen their Agile skills and understand the nuanced demands of a product owner. Overview In this insightful episode, Brian and Mike Cohn explore the multifaceted role of product owners in Agile development, discussing everything from market analysis and vision creation to the nuts and bolts of sprint planning and retrospectives. Emphasizing flexibility and adaptability, Brian and Mike offer a comprehensive look at how product owners can excel by focusing on strategic planning and fostering strong team dynamics. This episode is essential for product owners seeking to enhance their impact in Agile environments and drive successful outcomes. Listen Now to Discover: [1:07] - Brian welcomes special guest Mountain Goat Software and Agile Alliance founder Mike Cohn.  [1:31] - Brian introduces Mountain Goat Software’s What Happens When for a Product Owner, and Mike flips the script, setting Brian, as the creator, into the guest seat on this episode. [3:16] - Join Brian as he explores the vital, behind-the-scenes efforts of product owners that set the stage for Scrum success, all before the first sprint begins. [6:24] - Brian explains the dynamics of crafting a product vision, clarifying how much responsibility lies with the product owner and how much is shared with the team. [7:46] - Brian offers expert guidance on the optimal timing for creating a story map within the Scrum process. [9:46] - Brian and Mike explore the optimal quantity of backlog items to have ready before adding them to a sprint. [13:45] - Join Brian as he explains the importance of setting a product goal in Scrum, detailing how it enhances functionality and guides the development process. [17:03] - Brian invites you to download Mountain Goat Software’s What Happens When for Product Owners, a comprehensive guide designed to support your Scrum journey. [17:43] - Brian explains how to effectively integrate road mapping into the Scrum process, ensuring it adds valuable foresight and preparation without causing shortsightedness. [19:55] - Mike suggests a strategy for managing stakeholders who overemphasize the product roadmap, offering a creative approach to preserve the flexibility and adaptability that effective road mapping allows. [22:48] - Brian delves into the critical role and strategies of effective sprint planning, essential for driving successful Scrum projects. [24:20] - Brian offers his perspective on the significance and involvement of the product owner in the daily scrum, detailing their role and contributions. [26:15] - Mike recounts a memorable story about receiving exceptionally impressive customer feedback at trustworthy.com, highlighting the impact of genuine client interactions. [28:30] - Brian emphasizes that the product owner is an integral part of the team and its goals, underscoring their collaborative role rather than being separate. [29:18] - Brian explores the crucial involvement of the product owner in the backlog refinement process, detailing their responsibilities and impact. [30:48] - Brian explains why he views the sprint review as the product owner's event and offers strategies for executing it effectively. [32:17] - Brian delves into the product owner's essential participation in the retrospective, emphasizing that their insights and experiences are crucial for the team's growth and improvement. [34:10] - Brian outlines ways the product owner can proactively prepare for the next sprint, ensuring a smooth transition and effective planning. [35:27] - Brian discusses a key pitfall that product owners should avoid to ensure success in their role. [37:35] - Brian shares a big thank you to Mike for taking over this episode of the show. [37:57] - Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. [38:08] - We invite you to like and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast and share the episode with a friend who could benefit. [38:56] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. References and resources mentioned in the show: Mike Cohn What Happens When For Product Owners trustworthy.com Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Mike Cohn, CEO of Mountain Goat Software, is a passionate advocate for agile methodologies. Co-founder of Agile Alliance and Scrum Alliance, he thrives on helping companies succeed with Agile and witnessing its transformative impact on individuals' careers. Mike resides in Northern Idaho with his family, two Havanese dogs, and an impressive hot sauce collection. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors, we are back. We are here for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm here as always, Brian Milner, and today I have the big man back with me, the OG, we've got Mike Cohn in the house with us. Welcome in, Mike. Mike (00:15) Hey, Brian, thanks for having me back. Brian (00:18) Always happy to have Mike here. Always a pleasure to have him here and learn from his experience. And really, really grateful he's here. We wanted to have Mike on because we have something that we put together recently. Honestly, it's kind of been something we've been talking about we just haven't put together. We had a document that we had out there called What Happens When for Scrum Master. And we just didn't have one of those for a product owner. So I did some work there on the side on that and put it together. And we're getting that out for people so that you can find that and download it from our site. And we wanted Mike to come on to share his wisdom in that area as well, because a lot of this is stuff that I put together. But we wanted to get Mike's insights on these areas as well. Does that sound about right, Mike? Mike (01:11) That's what we agreed to do, but it's not what I'm going to do. Brian (01:14) Okay. Sounds good. Mike (01:19) I'm going to turn the tables on you, Brian, because it's your PDF. It's your document. You're the ideas behind this. So I kind of want to turn it around and take over. I'm going to kind of interview you, ask you things. I mean, I'll chime in with opinions here, of course. I can never shut my mouth long enough to not share an opinion. But it's your PDF. I want to ask you some questions about it, if that's OK with you. And I assume we'll have the link for this in the show notes for folks. They can get the. Brian (01:41) Sure, fair game. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, they'll be in the show notes. Anyone can find this. If you want to download it now and follow along, just pause, you know, go find that in the show notes and you can follow along as we talk through this. Mike (01:55) Great. So Brian, you separated the document out into things that a product owner does. And of course, I mean, kind of naturally you did it by timeframe, right? Do this before you even go and do this every sprint, things like that. I want to talk to you about some of the stuff that we do before the project that a good product owner should do before a project. You had in there a couple of things like do market analysis and create a vision. You tell me more about what you would expect of a great product owner in that world. Brian (02:25) Yeah, that first bullet point, what I was trying to capture is that there's some behind the scenes kind of product, standard product work that we don't really account for in a scrum sense. Things like market analysis and trying to understand the competitive landscape. There's a whole discipline there of activity and work that goes on behind the scenes. And I think it's important to understand, that Scrum isn't in any way saying throw that out or that that's not needed, that is something that would come, in my opinion, before you even begin this kind of work. Scrum does not include in it a process that would say, let's verify that they should fund this product. Let's do a pitch. So the CEO of, you know, here's why you should have this product. That's what I was trying to capture in that first bullet point is just understand there are some standard kind of product development work that goes on that we're not, we're kind of skipping over a little bit. Mike (03:36) That's one of the things I've always loved about Scrum is that Scrum is silent, deliberately so on many topics. And occasionally I will have somebody that I'll meet and they'll say, Scrum doesn't say how we should do product envisioning, right? It doesn't say how we should do that. So I guess we don't do it. It's like, well, Scrum doesn't say that you should code, right? Nowhere in the Scrum guide does it say code your software product, right? Yet if you're doing a software product, somebody's coding, right? Somebody's doing something. And so I like that Scrum is deliberately silent on a lot of things like this because you're talking about doing this market analysis. I work with plenty of companies that are doing internal software. And if we're doing internal software, we're not going to do a market analysis, just kind of internal user needs analysis perhaps, but it's going to be very different. And so I do like that flexibility there. Brian (04:13) Hmm, yeah. Yeah. So that's a good point, though, is depending on the product, it is sort of more as needed or as it would fit. Like you said, if it's an internal product, it's going to look very different than if you're doing a public -facing one. Mike (04:40) I think for any of the steps that you've outlined, I think they can vary. I'm sure some are going to be the same for everybody, but I always think of it as commercial development, right? We're making Microsoft Word, right? I think of it as in -house development, right? We're making a payroll system to pay our employees or contract development are kind of the three big branches to me. And then things get very different within those three types of development. I'm thinking more product development there specifically, but of course we can be using this for non -product things. Brian (05:10) Well, and I do want to say that that second bullet point, they're talking about vision. That's where I honestly, from my perspective, that's where the product owner portion of this begins, right? Because that's sort of the first thing you need to do. And in fact, when we teach our CSPO class, this is, you know, if you've been through a CSPO class with us, you will recognize this order because that's exactly how we go through it in our CSPO class, very deliberately. You know, that Mike (05:39) I'm sorry, I was getting off there, but I was getting interested in something you're saying there. So product owner kind of starting with the vision. I know that the team can influence the vision, right? But where would you draw the line or how much of the vision is the product owners? Is it like, you know, I'm the product owner dictator. Here's my vision, shut up and build it. Brian (06:02) Yeah, I don't know that there's one answer there. I mean, I have seen in certain situations where it's more of a group effort. And that might be part of that earlier genesis of the product, where we go through an effort to define the vision with other key stakeholders, with leaders in the organization. I do think that there is sort of a separate activity that I would take with the team itself. So I might spend a deal of time with key stakeholders developing a vision, but then I might also then have a separate meeting with the team once that's established to say, you know, here's kind of what we're defining it as. Let's walk through this. Tell me if you agree, disagree, or how you might improve or change this. Just so that we, you know, part of our job as a product owner is to cast that vision. and help people get caught up in the excitement for what it is we're trying to do. So that's kind of the purpose there I see of doing that. Mike (07:04) Yeah. Yeah, the more excited we get people about it, the better off we're going to be throughout the course of the project. You also have some things in here about things to do before the first sprint about identifying users, possibly go into the persona level, but then also story mapping. I want to ask you about the story maps for a second. What's your guideline? Because somebody asked me this recently, I'm curious on your answer. What's your guideline for when we should create a story map? Do you do always, only at the start, only in the middle? What's your advice? Brian (07:35) Creating it, I always created at the start. I mean, my, just, and again, this is my experience, right? But what I have found to be useful is to do it at the beginning. And it's sort of right in that order, right? I've done the vision, I've talked, I figure out who my users are. And then I wanna know what the general big picture is for my product. I wanna be able to step back from a 50 ,000 foot view and say, all right, here's kind of the step by step of what we're gonna be doing. Because, you know, kind of like a product backlog, it's a living, breathing document. It's not done, you know, we do it once at the beginning of our product and then it's done set forever. It's constantly adapting and changing as we add new feature areas, as we, you know, understand differently how our users would interact with the product. We're going to adjust and change it. I want it to always reflect reality. Mike (08:30) Do you, so let's talk about reality there. I mean, I agree with that, but what I see is story maps that are hard to keep up to date. Are you seeing teams that really succeed at keeping them up to date all the time? I know the living breathing thing for like a couple months and then it's like the dusty old story map, right? Brian (08:47) Yeah, well, this is kind of one of the things where it was kind of hard for me to put this in a time frame because there's really two time frames that I would like this to appear in. Yes, I do think we should do it before the first sprint. And by the way, again, there, I would do this in multiple rounds with different sets of stakeholders. But then once it's established, I kind of would slide that into that quarterly kind of activity to say, we may not touch it every quarter, but every quarter I would want to... Mike (09:03) Sure. Brian (09:16) check in on it and just say, is this still accurate? Do we need to adjust it? Do we need to do anything different about it? Mike (09:16) Okay. see that. A couple of the things on the before the first spring here, you've got identify assumptions, possibly test some of those, and then create a product goal. And then the last couple of you got, you know, get enough of the backlog written to get started. And a sprinkle, how much of the backlog do you think a team should have to get going? I mean, I know it's probably not like seven and a half items, but you know, you're looking for, you know, one sprint, one or two sprints, eight sprints. Brian (09:45) Bye. Well, no, Mike nailed it. It's seven and a half. Seven and a half items. No, just kidding. Now we can start. No, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, that's why I use the term enough, right? What is enough? Well, you know what enough is, right? You kind of know what that is. There's a, you know, there's a goal that we have in general that we've, lots of us trainers and coaches have put out there to say, Mike (09:52) seven and a half backlog items. There we go. Once you've written seven and a half, we can get started. Brian (10:14) you want to aim for about two to three sprints worth of items that are in ready to go shape. They're ready to move into a sprint and start at any given time. I don't know that you need two to three sprints to start. Yeah, I mean, I think you need, I think there's sometimes a hesitancy in teams to get everything documented upfront. And I'm trying to help people kind of push past that to say, no, we don't need to have everything. Mike (10:25) That's a start. Brian (10:42) We just gotta have enough to start. And when I'm working with a team, I wanna get them into that first sprint as soon as possible because they're gonna learn much more from just doing it than they are from talking about it beforehand. That's why I've never been a real big fan of like a sprint zero or something like that because it just doesn't take a whole sprint to do everything that you need to do to get ready for your first sprint. Mike (10:58) Right. Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, to me, I always put it in terms of like, we're gambling our time, right? Is it worth gambling more of our valuable time writing more backlogs, or should we just play and get started? And if we're a company whose name is invoices are us, right? You know, should we go ahead and write some stories about the invoicing part of the system? Yeah, I bet we should. But if we're not sure that, I don't know what we're building, but if we're not sure invoice is going to be part of it, don't write anything about that on the backlog yet. Just put one big item, do invoices, right? Break it down when you get there. So. Brian (11:36) Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you typically know where you need to start. You know, there's a million things you could do. But when you have a big idea for a product and you're starting fresh and you're starting new with it, at least in my experience, again, I found like, I always know where I'm starting. And that's what I would encourage you to do is just get it out there, get it started. Even if you don't have all the different features and aspects of it thought through, that's OK. Mike (11:44) Right. Brian (12:05) You just want to start making progress so you learn. Mike (12:08) That reminds me of something I've shared with a lot of leadership teams that I've met with over the years, which is that I'll tell them that they're basically solving the wrong problem. And they're trying to answer the question of what should we build? What should the product be? And that's totally the wrong question. The right question is what should we build next? What's that next one or two steps that would tell you what the next four or five steps will be? And so simplify the question, not what are we building, but what are we building next? And I think you're right there. Brian (12:26) Yeah, yeah. Mike (12:36) one sprint worth is enough and put in the backlog if you need to write more backlog items. Go from there. Brian (12:41) Yeah. And I don't want anyone to hear us incorrectly here. I mean, part of the reason that we had them there to identify assumptions and try to test hypothesis is I don't want to open a, the silly example I always use in classes, I don't want to open a store that sells lip balms online and not test whether people want to buy lip balm online or not. There's some fundamental assumptions that you're going to have to test and know. Mike (12:48) Thank you. Brian (13:11) probably before you're gonna even get with a team and start getting up and running on this. And that should happen here. Mike (13:16) Yeah. I was with a company, this is years ago, they were in Boston, we finished the engagement, I'm walking next to my rental car, and one of the guys walks out with me, one of the like VPs, and he's like, I got a question for you. He says, how often should we cancel projects? And I said, Brian (13:34) Seven and a half. Mike (13:35) I don't know, seven and a half. I said, I don't know. So I don't know how often, but you should be canceling a fair number of projects. You get started, you find out it's going to take twice as long as you thought, or you get started, and it's not really going to deliver the value that you hoped for. So you stop. And he's like, I thought so. He said something like, I've been here, I think, eight years, we've never canceled a project. And it's like, OK, that's bad. You should get into these and find out your assumptions are wrong. Brian (13:51) Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Mike (14:04) I want to talk about your quarterly items on here. And you've got a couple, let me just kind of read some of these here. So you've got establish a product goal. That's a relatively new thing in Scrum. I mean, I still think of 2020 as relatively new, but as a old timer with Scrum, product goal is one of the newer enhancements. You've got doing the story writing workshop. So you're supporting what you said there. Talk to me about the product goal here. Brian (14:19) Yeah. Yeah, so I feel silly talking to Mike Cohen about what a product goal is. Product goals are just that neck, they're a milestone, right? And that's typically the way I talk about this in class is to say, especially when you're starting something new, you may not know everything that you're gonna do, but you know the next big thing that you need to accomplish. You know the next big mile marker that you're gonna hit in the life of your product. Mike (14:56) Mm -hmm. Brian (14:59) And that's what we want to establish with the product goal. Something that's going to take longer than a sprint, multiple sprints to do. I've got this in the quarterly section. And that's kind of how we tend to talk about it a lot here at Mountain Goat. But even in class, we'll even say quarterly -ish. Right, right, bigger than a sprint. And sometimes it'll be longer. Sometimes it'll be shorter. That's OK. Mike (15:16) It's the bigger than a sprint section, right? Brian (15:25) You just want to have that big thing that the team can keep their eyes on and kind of know, you know, here's, you got a sprint goal that tells us why what we're doing in this sprint is important and how my small task feeds into that. And you've got this product goal to say, how does the sprints work fit into this bigger picture of what we're trying to do? So you're making those... Mike (15:47) Yeah. Brian (15:50) connections consciously for the developers so that they are not just, hey, here's a laundry list of stuff to do, but here's the objective we're trying to accomplish. Mike (16:01) Yep. I think it's important to have something that's out there bigger than a sprint. A sprint is just, it's just kind of suboptimizing, right? I think about if you're climbing a mountain and a sprint is like, what's the highest thing I see and just always walk into the highest thing you see. Meanwhile, those are all false summits. The real summit is, you know, behind some valley, but you don't see it because you don't set out that bigger goal. And I like how you talked about it quarterly because if the goal's too big, if it's too far out there, we're not going to feel very motivated. about it. I had this the wackest example of this. I hope the guy's not listening. Actually, I hope he is. But he was told me he was on a project with the large particle collider. And he said his whole project won't be due for 40 years, right? I mean, I don't get it. But it's like they've got to run like 40 years worth of data before it's like totally done. And I just picture myself showing up for work on a 40 year project, right? Brian (16:31) Right. Yeah. Mike (16:57) I know you, you're going to be reading Dallas Cowboys news for the first 35 years, right? You know, sports news and you know. Brian (17:04) That's a 40 year project too. Mike (17:07) Well, you're not going to take it serious for 35 years. Then you're going to wake up and go, the deadline's only five years away. I better get to work on this. And then what I would do is realize, wow, I'll be retired after 40 years. So anyway, I've been silly. But I mean, you're on a project with a 40 -year deadline. How do you say motivated? And I think three months is a really good time where I can see a bigger impact than a sprint. But it's not so far. Brian (17:15) Right. Right, right, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Mike (17:34) that that student syndrome kicks in and I feel, I don't really have to worry about it. Let's go to a long lunch. We'll get to work on it tomorrow. So I do like the quarter -ish approach there. You mentioned here a couple others here. These are probably straightforward, but manage and maintain the economics of your project, assess stakeholder relations, and road mapping. You want to talk about any of those, maybe road mapping especially? Brian (17:46) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, road mapping, I think, is an important aspect. I mean, it kind of goes along with that product goal. But I do get people who come through a product owner class that will say, I don't like this approach because it seems like it's all so short -sighted. And we're not really having the big picture of where we're going. And in my world, we have this year -long thing, or 10 year. I've worked with some teams that build automobiles and they're on a three -year release cycle. They're working on the model year that's three years ahead. I've worked with some teams that do aerospace kind of stuff and they're working on a space launch that's multi -years out in the future. Mike (18:34) Yeah. Brian (18:43) And when you ask them, how certain are you that you're really going to be working on this five years from now? Pretty darn certain, right? Because it's there. We're building toward that launch date's going to be there. So I think that that roadmap is an important step for a product owner. Now, I just want to be clear about this. When I say a roadmap, I'm not talking about setting hard and fast dates and saying, we're going to be here by this date. We're going to be there by this date. Mike (18:50) Yeah. Brian (19:12) It's okay for us to say, here's kind of where we feel things are gonna fall, but I really am a strong proponent of the forecasting method, like kind of looking ahead and seeing, you know, kind of based on yesterday's weather kind of thing, right? Here's what the weather was like at this time last year. So it's probably a good indicator of where we're gonna be at this season this year, that sort of thing. So I'm a proponent of the forecasting forward. And I think a roadmap can fall very well in line with that because we can slot things and say, here's kind of this quarter's, here's the next quarter kind of things that we're thinking that are gonna take place. And if one thing moves forward or backwards, one of those sections, that's not a big deal. It's not gonna change earth shatteringly the course of our product, but it does allow for preparation. And that's what I think is the most important thing that people lose sight of in sort of forecasting and projecting forward is why do we do this in the first place? Well, we do it most of the time because there's someone else who needs to get ready. They need to be prepared. They need to be ready when this is delivered to do XYZ. And that's what we're trying to accomplish with this. We can do that with forecasting. Mike (20:32) Yeah, I think you talk about taking those things seriously. And if we miss one, it's not the end of the world. Except there's always somebody in an organization who's going to say it is the end of the world. The danger for me with roadmaps is how serious people take them. They'll look at it and go, we got a roadmap. It says we're going to come out with this in 12 months. I bet we're going to do exactly these 12 things. And so that literalness to a roadmap. Brian (20:50) Yeah. Mike (20:59) is scary. I've only done this a couple of times, but I like the result is I put together roadmaps for with teams in a couple of organizations. And we kind of modeled them on the idea of the old, I don't know, 200 or 300 year ago, 400 year ago maps, right? And you would have like, you know, the. horrible map of what the world looked like, right? And there'd be Darby Dragons right on the edge of the map. And we actually did that on a roadmap, right? It had stacks of items are going to be delivered. You know, this, this six months, this six months. And then below there, we had just put a few things in kind of an unreadable font at Darby Dragons below there. Trying to reiterate that you can't take this that literally, but there often is somebody who's like, my annual bonus is tied to that box on the roadmap. Brian (21:24) I'm going to go ahead and close the video. Right. Well, you can see this in, you know, I'm not going to get on a tangent here on safe, but you even see this in safe when people do things like PI planning and they plan out the next quarter. One of the pitfalls that I think a lot of organizations fall into when they do that is that they see it as a commitment. That the team is making a commitment to getting all that work done in that PI, in that program increment. And that's not the way it's intended. It's intended as here's our loose plan. We know what we're going to do in the next sprint, but the other sprints are Mike (21:48) Right. Yep. Brian (22:17) more fluid and we'll adjust as we need to. Mike (22:20) Yeah, I've written so many times about a plan is not a commitment or commitment is not a guarantee, right? You know, I can make a commitment to this. I'm going to commit to do my best. We're going to commit to try to achieve these. But I love a Clint Eastwood quote, one of his movies. He said, if you want a guarantee, buy a toaster. Right. So. Those are the days when supposedly banks used to give you a toaster when you open a new account, right? That. Brian (22:25) Yeah, yeah. you can guarantee a toaster in today's world. Well, we joke in our family because my wife's grandparents have a, well, they're no longer with us, but they had a refrigerator that was from the 1950s that was sitting out in their barn that still worked perfectly. But we had, you know, our refrigerator is, you know, five years old and it's already breaking down and you have to consider replacing it. So, yeah, yeah. Mike (22:49) precede my day, but I... Wow. It's all the electronics in them, I think, right? So I want to move on to the sprint planning. So from the quarterly planning. So in sprint planning, you've got this broken out by what people do in the planning meeting daily during the sprint. So I want to start in the planning meeting. You're proposing a goal and work with developers to kind of improve that, answer questions about backlog items, and talk about your schedule as the product owner share your schedule. You want to elaborate on what you're thinking about with these sprint planning activities? Brian (23:15) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, so I think a goal is important for the sprint. I think that gets us all on the same page and it's kind of one of the teaming aspects of it. We want to all have our eyes on the prize of what it is we're trying to accomplish together so that we're not all just in different places working on different things. I think it's important that we're there in sprint planning to answering questions because that's when they come up. We're making our plan for when we're going to do something. So I think it's important that we're there to kind of help them plan how they're going to accomplish stuff. Mike (23:59) Yep. Brian (24:08) We're not telling them how to, but we're giving them the information they need to determine how. And then, you know, as far as our schedule is concerned, I think it's a great idea for a product owner in sprint planning to say, you know, here's the next two weeks of my calendar. Here's where I'm going to be out of the office these days. I'm going to be at a client site on these days, just so that people can prepare. If I'm a developer and I know I need to get approval from my product owner and I know they're going to be out for the next two days at a conference or something, well, that might... guide me in how I'm going to plan and arrange my work. Mike (24:38) Yep. Some of my favorite POs have been ones that have done something like said, look, between one and two o 'clock every day is total team time. I will never schedule a meeting. I'll always be available if you need me from one to two or one to three or eight to nine, whatever it is, but they'll have some sort of window there that is basically guaranteed access. Doesn't mean that's the only time they're available, but it's a guaranteed time, which is nice. I think it's nice. Brian (25:04) Yeah, I love that too. Mike (25:06) Talk to me about the daily scrums and what you'd expect out of a product owner during the daily standups. Brian (25:08) Ha ha ha. Yeah, daily scrums are kind of a controversial thing here for lots of reasons, but I mean, there's some who would say a product owner doesn't need to be at a daily scrum. I disagree. I think product owners do need to be there. I don't think they're required. Actually, if you want to ask me my opinion, the only people I think are required are the developers, because it's for them, it's by them. You can't have it if they're not there. If anyone else is not there, you can still have the meeting. Mike (25:14) Thank you. Brian (25:38) But the product owner, I think, is important to try to be at as many of these as they possibly can. Because just like in sprint planning, they're making a plan for what they're doing, here it's immediately before they're going to be doing this work. So it's the time when the rubber meets the road. And here's where they're going to have some real practical questions. And if you're not there to answer them, you could hold them up. You could delay them. Mike (26:04) Yeah. Brian (26:05) I also, like you said, I like to use this as an opportunity to say, here's when I'm available today. Mike (26:10) I wake that product owners attend because of the message it helps sends as well. If the PO never goes, is this project important, right? Or team members start to think, we have to show up daily and say what we did yesterday, that that person never has to do this, you know? And we started to get some resentment towards them. So I strongly encourage product owners to attend. I'm like you, that don't require, but my requirement test is always, would I cancel the meeting if this person had a dentist appointment, right? Brian (26:16) Yeah. Mike (26:41) If the product owner had a dentist appointment in the morning of planning, I'd probably say, can we do it in the afternoon? My product owner can't make the daily scrum because I've got a dentist appointment? well. We're still doing the daily scrum. But you're right. If all of the teams, this will be silly, but if all of the team members were all having dentist appointments, yeah, we'd cancel the meeting. There'd be no point. So. Brian (26:53) Right. Yeah, the Scrum Master and Product Owner can't have a daily scrum, just the two of them. Mike (27:07) What should we make them do? Let's talk about what to do during the sprint. You talked about kind of ongoing research. So you don't want to do all the research upfront on this. Brian (27:09) Right, exactly. Right, no, it's a continual thing, right? I mean, if I'm working on my product and my competitor comes out with a killer feature that's starting to gain traction, I can't do that research upfront. That's something that becomes apparent as the product kind of goes along. So I think it's important that we keep in touch with what's going on in the real world with our product and the competitors. Mike (27:43) Mm -hmm. through the marketing, through the market. The thing you had next here was about connecting with customers to hear feedback. I want to share a story on this one because it literally just happened. I told you I was out of the office. I got back like 15 minutes before we wanted to do this recording. And I'd been gone all morning, so I talked to my wife for about five minutes. And she and I had come across some software recently that we're using that looks kind of interesting. It's things like, you know, when you die, who gets access to your Facebook? Brian (27:57) Yeah. Mike (28:18) password, right? And most of my friends are pretty shifty. So I don't want to give my Facebook password now because they'd probably go post weird things. But I want you know, when I die, I want that to happen, right? And so we're looking at various software that does those things like who do you notify when after you died? Brian (28:19) Yeah. Mike (28:35) And we signed up with this company. I'm actually going to share the name because I like them so much here in a minute, but let me say why I like them. My wife and I both had interactions with them by email about totally different things. One was a little bug that I came across and then something that I think she was asking about how does the future work. But here's what I love. They contacted her today and said, can we get on the phone with you and hear what you think about our product? They're a fairly new company, I believe. what you think about our product and what you think about how we've, in particular, have like the three tiers of service that we offer, right? You know, this feature, this feature. And I just love that they're doing that, right? Because not as many companies do that as they should, right? As they should. Because I love that company, so I'm gonna mention their name, trustworthy .com. Probably nobody listening needs them, but they are just this kind of like, you know, I don't wanna say like death planning, because they're not like playing your funeral, but it's like. Brian (29:23) Hahaha. Mike (29:28) Who gets your Facebook account? What bank accounts do you have? So your heirs can figure it out. Right. So, so. Brian (29:34) Yeah, yeah, that's great. No, I love having that mission if they're, they have good customer service. Yeah, definitely. Let's, let's mention them. Mike (29:40) Yeah, and my wife and I favorably disposed of them, and that just put me over the top with them literally a half hour ago. You talk about checking in with the Scrum Master, about how you as a product owner are doing, but also staying in touch with devs. Brian (29:46) That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think that it's important for us to understand that we are not somehow separate from the team. We are part of the team. So we have the same goal as everyone else, and that's to deliver as much value as we can to our customers. We have a specific role, a responsibility to play in that. But I think checking in, partly I put that on there because. checking with a scrum master. That's something that we have on our scrum master sheet is to check in with a product owner. And I do think that those two need to kind of work hand in hand over the course of a sprint. And on an ongoing basis, kind of touch base to see how are things on your end? How are things on my end? And how can we help each other to kind of achieve our goals here? Mike (30:24) Yeah. Yeah, you often notice something about somebody else before they may notice it themselves, right? We've got a couple other meetings that I'll move on to. So let's talk about refinement. Can you share what your thoughts are for a product owner's responsibilities during refinement? Brian (30:43) Mmm. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, refinement, I always hesitate to even think about it as a meeting because it's kind of more of a series of activities. And you might have multiple meetings that would need to take place here. But yeah, I think that there's a lot of prep work that goes into. If I'm going to have the stakeholders come in and help me prioritize, I've got to prep a lot of that work. I've got to have the stuff that's ready to go prior to that meeting. I can't just show up and go, let's see what we got in our backlog. And we'll just kind of wing it. Mike (31:02) Good point. if What do you think about this product owner? I don't know. Let me think now. Yeah. Did I write that one? Brian (31:21) Right. Right. I don't even know what that is. I don't know. Let me read it. Right. That's just going to waste everyone's time and frustrate people. So I think there's a lot of prep that goes into that and prepping to go into anything like estimation. Do we have the right sort of things that are going to be estimated? I don't want to waste my team's time estimating stuff that's maybe really a long way in the future. And I'm not going to look at it for a while. So, you know, I think there's a lot of prep time that goes into that. And I think that, you know, we're at the center, at the focal point of any kind of refinement activity. as a product owner. So that's going to be, I don't really know exactly how those meetings are going to play out for you, but I think that there is some configuration there that you got to plan for. Mike (32:02) I'm hearing your message. There is the old boy scout motto, be prepared, right? It's a new product owner motto, right? We'll, we'll steal it from the boy scouts. you have any, that's true. Just don't take away my Girl Scout cookies. So let's talk about the, the sprint review. what do you think a great product owner does then? Brian (32:06) Yes, yes. Yeah. Well, that's okay, because there's no more Boy Scouts. So you don't have to worry about that. Right. wow. So this is our event. I really think of this as the product owners event. Yeah, exactly. I think you're the emcee. I think you show up, you host it, you send out the invites for it. What I typically tell product owners is kick it off with kind of a look back at some things that have been done recently by the team. Here's some features that we developed in the past three to six sprints and maybe even show some statistics about the impact those things are making. Mike (32:30) you Showtime! Brian (32:56) on the product and the market, on the customers. Our customer satisfaction has gone from here to there as a result of releasing these features, those kinds of things. So I think that the meeting opens that way. Then we move into the demonstration of the work and what we've done in that sprint. And yes, I would turn that over in large part to the developers so that they can demonstrate. But then I think it circles back at the end to come back to the product owner to say, all right, let's take a peek ahead. Let's look ahead what's coming up in our product backlog. Here's what our... looking at as candidates for the next sprint. And I think that's really important. It gives the stakeholders a chance to speak up and say, hey, what about this thing that I had that was really important? I don't see that prioritized. I really need that in the next sprint. I want to have those conversations in advance, not after sprint planning, when it's sort of locked in. Yeah. Mike (33:45) Tell me about the retrospective. One of the things I noticed you had in there was that you want product owners to attend every retrospective. There's going to be pushback on that from some teams. What's your thought there? Brian (33:59) Yeah, my thought there is, again, kind of reiterating that point that we are on the team, we are a team member like anyone else. And again, we have different responsibilities. We have a named kind of set of accountabilities that we have that may differ from others. But I kind of consider it like this. If I'm on a, in the US, we'd say soccer team, but if I'm anywhere else in the world, I'd say football team. If I'm on that kind of a team and I'm the keeper, the goalkeeper. I've got a very unique role, right? I mean, there's a set of things I do that no one else does. I'm allowed to do things that nobody else is allowed to. I'm allowed to touch the ball with my hands. Nobody else is, right? But if there's a team meeting, you're not gonna have a team meeting without your goalkeeper. They're an important vital part of your team. And that's what this is. It's the team meeting to get together to say, how can we get better? How can we improve? What's going on? What's wrong? What's right? And what do we wanna focus on? Mike (34:36) Right. Yeah. Brian (34:58) So I think it's vital for a product owner to be at every one just because like I said, we're a team member. Mike (35:04) I agree. To me, it's always like, if you don't feel comfortable having your product owner at the retrospective, that's the first thing I want to talk about at the retrospective. Right? It would figure out why we're not comfortable with that so we can move past that. I do like here in the retrospective, you talked about having the product owner commit to making progress on the improvement items, which I think is important because sometimes it is product owners who have to improve. Right? So. Brian (35:31) Yeah. Yeah, I mean, one of the things we'll talk about in class is how the product owner is a vital communication relay point. They are the, I call them kind of the, it slipped my mind. What's the stone that had the different languages on it from Rosetta Stone, sorry. They're kind of the Rosetta Stone, right? Because they speak tech with the developers. They speak. Mike (35:36) Mm -hmm. Rosetta. Brian (35:57) business with the stakeholders and they translate across those two groups. So I think, yeah, I think it's important that we're there to try to, if there's communication issues with us and the developers, this is the place to work it out, right? This is the place to say, what do you need from me so that it's more clear the next time I write stories. Mike (36:02) Yep. Yeah, that's a good point. What about for the next sprint? What should product owners do this sprint to be ready for the next one? Brian (36:24) Yeah, excuse me. Yeah, I think it's important that we really get a handle on what should be prioritized, that we have a good understanding of what's going to be coming up, that we have that idea of what our next proposed sprint goal might be, where we're focused on stuff. And as I said, I want to check in with my stakeholders, especially my key stakeholders, on that prioritization so that it's not a surprise to anyone. I don't want to. I don't want anything to be a surprise when it gets to sprint planning. By the time we circle back around in sprint planning, I want my developers to have looked at these things multiple times before they see it in sprint planning. We've had estimations. We've had discussions about these. So there could have been multiple times we've had conversations about these. So by the time we get to sprint planning, it's not the first time we're looking at these things. Mike (37:00) Yeah. Yeah, it should be a surprise. Brian (37:15) And that's kind of what I'm trying to allude to here is that there's a series of activities that just are kind of the glue between one sprint to the next sprint. And if we kind of drop that ball in any way, like I said, I can't show up at sprint planning and sort of just say, well, let's see what we got, guys. I have no idea what we're going to do, but let's just take a look. Yeah, I can't wing it. Mike (37:30) Right. Yeah, wing it. Yeah, that's not a good approach for things. Brian, you told me a lot of things that product owners should do. I want to twist it a little bit and ask you for one thing product owners should not do before the sprint, during the sprint, before the project, whatever. What's one thing, the one thing you would tell product owners to not do? Brian (37:57) Wow, that's such a great question. I think probably the number one thing that I would say is to understand the boundary between the what and the how, and really to try to stay out of the how. What I mean by that is we're in charge as product owners of the what side of the equation. What is it that we're going to be doing? What are we focused on? The developers are in charge of the how. How do we accomplish this? What's the best way to deliver this? And I... I know as a product owner in my past, I've always struggled with that balance of, yeah, but I've got a vision in my head of exactly the way I want it to play out. And I have to kind of rein myself back in a little bit and say, yeah, but kind of remind yourself that that's not really my role here. My role is not to explain exactly how the page is going to need to look and exactly how this feature plays out. If I have no really discernible reason that I have to have it one way over another, right? If there's not like a legal reason or compliance that I've got to do it one way, then I want to as much as possible stay out of the house so that the developers really get to exert their expertise. Mike (38:59) Right. Yeah, that's where they're going to be, they're going to be best at. I was describing it as that there's, there is a fine line between what and how, which is why people often will struggle with it. the way I think about it is like every time we dip into that, how at all product owners dip into that at all, they start to kind of take away degrees of freedom from the team. The team has less maneuvering room on how they're going to solve the problem. And great, take away one degree of freedom here and there. It's not going to be the end of the world. Take away too many, and you over -constrained the solution. The team doesn't engage as fully. All sorts of negative things, as you've touched on. Brian (39:39) Yeah. Mike (39:40) Brian, I want to thank you for letting me take over and turn the tables on you and ask you the question. Since you had made the PDF, I wanted to be the one asking you what your thoughts were on your great PDF that we have for folks. So I'll turn it back over to you. Let it be back to your show now. Brian (39:41) Hahaha I... Yeah, no, well, thank you very much. This has been a pleasure. It's been really fun to have to see what it's like on the other side of the table a little bit. So thanks for being willing to do it, Mike, and thanks for being willing to share your insights as we walked through this.

Join Brian and Marisa Smith as they dive into the world of developer advocacy, the challenges of agile methodologies in data engineering, and the vital role of open-source communities. Discover how to better support and communicate with your developers in this insightful episode! Overview In this episode, Brian Milner interviews developer relations expert Marisa Smith to explore the vital role of developer advocates in bridging the gap between companies and their users. Marisa shares her insights on the challenges of communicating with developers, emphasizing the need to create a welcoming environment for questions and feedback. She also discusses the unique difficulties developers face when implementing agile methodologies, particularly in the realm of data engineering. They highlight the significance of open-source communities in fostering innovation and collaboration and provide a preview of Marisa's upcoming talk at Agile 2024 on enhancing data pipelines with SQLMesh. Listen Now to Discover: [1:08] - Join Brian in an engaging conversation with Dr. Marisa Smith, PhD, Developer Relations Expert, Developer Advocate, and Speaker. [2:43] - Marisa Smith sheds light on the crucial role of a developer advocate, explaining how they bridge the gap between developers and the wider community. [3:49] - Brian digs into common mistakes in how we communicate with developers and poses the question: what are we getting wrong in our interactions? [5:57] - Marisa outlines the hurdles developers face in a Scrum team environment, shedding light on common obstacles. [12:00] - Marisa explores the hurdles in developer communication, offering insights into improving dialogue and understanding. [12:55] - Mountain Goat Software offers Working on a Scrum Team, a private class to help Scrum teams foster a team dynamic that supports the whole team, including bridging the gap in communicating with developer teams. [15:00] - Marisa discusses how SQLMesh has empowered data engineers to streamline their tasks, sparking a sense of 'Marie Kondoing' their work. [24:11] - Marisa emphasizes the vital importance of open-source developer communities for fostering innovation and teamwork. [26:51] - Brian shares a big thank you to Marisa for joining him on the show. [27:50] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. [27:54] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. References and resources mentioned in the show: Dr. Marisa Smith, PhD Join the SQLMesh Community Agile 2024 SQLMesh Working on a Scrum Team Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Mountain Goat Software’s Private Training Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Marisa Smith is a Developer Relations expert who bridges the gap between the community and development teams, addressing problems and promoting open-source software. With a Ph.D. in Computational & Theoretical Physical Chemistry, she has a background in simulating radiation effects in water. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're here for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have the one, the only Marisa Smith with us. Welcome in Marisa. Marisa (00:13) Hi, thank you so much for having me. Brian (00:15) Very excited to have Marisa with us. If you're not familiar with Marisa, her title is Developer Relations Expert. So right there, that's an episode, right? We could talk just about that. And we'll get into that a little bit more, but there's a lot of really interesting stuff here about Marisa. She has her PhD in theoretical and computational physical chemistry. So... Marisa (00:41) Yeah. Brian (00:42) Again, wow, right? I mean, this is amazing stuff. She's worked at Streamlet. She was their very first developer advocate there. And she has since, Streamlet's been acquired by Snowflake. And you founded Tobacco Data, is that right? Marisa (01:07) Uh, no, I, um, I am their first developer advocate at Tupiqium data. Yeah. No words. Brian (01:11) OK, gotcha. Sorry about that. Messed that up. So very, very interesting background. And one of the things that caught our notice, Marisa spoke last year at Agile 2023 and is speaking again this year at Agile 2024. So again, if you're going to come out, I highly recommend you attend her talk. Her talk is called Marie Kondo. your data pipelines with SQLMesh, which I think is really, really interesting. But I'm talking too much, and I want to turn it over to Marisa here. Help us understand developer relations expert and developer advocate. What does that mean? Marisa (01:59) Yeah, so I am, what I always say is that I am the person that connects your company to the people who use your product. And it just so happens that the companies that I work for are companies that work in the tech industry. They're building some sort of piece of the tech stack. So the people that use it, their customers are other developer, developers essentially, or technical people. Brian (02:22) Yeah, so you're an expert in the... Marisa (02:27) in the art of, in the art of like, how do we communicate with other developers? How do we pass that information back and forth between the developers that are making a product and the developers that use a product. And how do we make sure that, you know, we're getting, we're, we're getting the best out of our, out of our users and that they're getting the best out of the technology that we're trying to build for them. Brian (02:49) That is so, so interesting. And so I'm sure product owners are listening going, yeah, help me. Help me. I want to understand. How do I talk to developers? So gosh, there's so many directions we can go with this. What do you think people misunderstand most when they try to communicate with developers? What do we get wrong? Marisa (02:55) hahahaha Oh, wow, that's a great question. Let me think about this for a second. I think, I think from, from, from my perspective, as somebody who spends a lot of time, like running different communities, especially open source communities, I think that people get the wrong idea in that. Yes, these developers are your customer, but a lot of the time they have very limited time. They come in, they look at, you know, maybe your open source product or, uh, you know, your free version or something that they're trying to see if they can integrate this in their own stack. And I think people can. or companies can come at them a little bit too quickly, a little bit too salesy, right? And then that ends up driving them away. They're like, no, no, no, I'm really not interested in any of this. I'm just trying to figure out if this is the right technology. A lot of developers like to iterate. They try things out, right? And so I think if you come at them too early with, oh, here's our sales process. Here's this, this is how much this costs. It's like, no, no, no, I'm like... way early, I'm MVP POC type of thing, trying to see if I can understand, or if this works with my team, my workflow, my current pipeline, the other technologies that we use, you know, that, that type of thing. I think that's one of the biggest mistakes that you can make, especially when you're talking about open source, which is kind of like my bread and butter. Brian (04:28) Right, right. Yeah. And you know, the communication, especially, I mean, because we talk about Scrum and Agile here on the podcast, you know, that relationship between the business side of the house and the developer side of the house, it's almost like, you know, Romeo and Juliet and the two houses, you know, they speak different languages. They want different things. They see the world in a very different way. Marisa (04:34) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Brian (04:58) And yet somehow these two groups have to figure out how are we going to work together to really deliver something that is valuable, right? So you work with a lot of developers. You talk with a lot of developers. And I know there's lots of different kind of practices and things that are out there that developers are using these days. Marisa (05:09) Yes. Yeah. Brian (05:26) When you talk to them about something like Scrum, or when that kind of process comes up, what are some of the chief complaints that you hear from developers when they talk about working on a Scrum team? What are they not like about it? Marisa (05:44) Ooh, interesting. Yeah, I would say. I would say, I mean, in the area that I'm working in right now, I'm working pretty deep in the data pipelines. So Tobico data runs these two open source projects, SQLMesh and SQL glot. And it's essentially your T of your ETL pipeline, right? We're using SQL, we understand SQL and we're transforming your SQL queries into these tables and we're helping you manage these pipelines as they evolve over time. And so, um, and so I think, you know, in this space, what happens is when you're talking about, you know, working with scrum teams and stuff like that, one of the pieces of agile is trying out new things and iterating. And that can actually be super difficult for a lot of like these data engineers and developers to do, because you have accountability at the end of the day, right? If you're changing up your data, you're mutating some, some SQL query that changes some model that changes your data pipeline downstream. And then all of a sudden. you know, you've pushed it to production and, uh -oh, this data is not what you expected. It's not what you had like originally tested for. And that's because, you know, teams have to work across many different, um, they have many different like iterations that they're working on and many different teams are, you know, making changes potentially simultaneously. And so I think that for, for developers, when you talk about scrum and you talk about agile, particularly if you're talking about like, adjusting tooling or trying out something new again, coming back to this fact that like, you know, they're just there to test things out. They have very limited time and that's because they get stressed out. It's like, well, I don't want to break production. We have to protect production, your production environment as much as possible. And, you know, part of agile and part of doing all these things is trying, trying these new tools, trying these new companies, trying these new methods. And you can get a lot of resistance from that because. they know this method works, they know that they have accountability and they know that production will be fine if they use this methodology that they've set up. Sometimes it can be a little bit of a matchstick thing in the back end. Brian (07:47) Yeah. Well, and I mean, just hearing you talk about that and thinking about it, I know one of the big friction points between the business side and the developer side is take SQLMesh. If that's something that my team has never worked with and I have someone on the team who is interested in that and wants to, thinks it might give us some benefits, There's friction there with the product side to say, product has all these things they want, and they want to push these things forward. But I think this bit of adding this to our stack is going to improve things. But how do I communicate that to the business to give us the time to do this? Because it's not directly leading to a feature, but it will improve things moving on. How do you? How do you balance it? How do you have that conversation with a product person or the business side of the house to really say, Hey, this is worthwhile. Marisa (08:50) Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, it's super difficult. And I think it's really a balance of, you know, having to have these engineers dedicate some time to new tooling and testing things out. And then once you have done that in their schedule, you know, I don't know how frequently you may want to do it like once a month or something like that, where they, you know, take a day and just review what new is out there. What else should we be looking at? What other tools, what other... You know, with, especially with the emergence of AI and all of that recently, that changes a mile a minute, I think. So, you know, keeping on top of that is, is, is a huge burden on these engineering teams. And so time needs to be dedicated for actually getting that kind of stuff done and the freedom to actually try these things out and do like just a minimum viable product, right? Just a tiny POC with like a little Tinkit data set. And then on, I think there's some. Brian (09:23) Ha ha. Marisa (09:45) there's some weight of this on the company that's developing these open source products or new tooling, that they have to start communicating and figuring out their business value as well. Because those developers cannot, with this little example, show all of the benefits that you would get. What cost savings do you get? What efficiency savings? What increase in productivity? All of that has to be done by the company and you need to have that ready. so that you can back up your developers that are trying out your product and your open source projects so that they have something to go off of. They're like, hey, look, I made this. It took one week or something like that. And I got it to a place where it's really good and look at all these cool features. And this will make us so much faster in our pipeline. And then here is the company's documentation or case study or whatever it is that says this should increase our productivity approximately this much. And... that these other big companies that are similar to us have this sort of success with it. And, you know, it, I think those two combined can really help alleviate these pressure that the developers feel and give them the time to actually try out new tools, which in many cases they love to do. They love to try new things. They love open source, right. And they will be your best advocates. If you spend the time talking to them, communicating with them and giving them the things that they need to be successful. Brian (11:12) Yeah, I would think that's kind of a, there's a duality to, I would imagine your role in speaking with them about your product, because in one case you have to sell them on, hey, look how beneficial this is. This is, you should add this to your stack. But on the other hand, you've got to equip them with the, the, uh, the sales pitch, I guess, that they can then make to their business to say, hey, you should allow us to do this. You should give us the, whether it's finances to do this or the time or the resources to do this, that, you know, it does benefit you as well. So that's gotta be a really difficult part of that communication is kind of, you know, getting people who are not really salespeople, you know, having been a developer, I know I kind of get, you know, the personality type. Uh, and you know, we, we don't want to have to talk to people. We want to be able to put our headphones on and get our work done. Uh, but now, now I'm in the position where if I want to do this thing, I know it is the right thing to do. I've got to convince others and that's not really my strong point. So how do you, how do you help them with that? Marisa (12:24) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely a long road. I would say, you know, it's not done in a split second, especially when you're talking about larger companies, like any sort of fan company. They will take a lot of time to make this decision. So you have to be really committed, I think, to each person that you're talking to and each person that you're trying to help get moving with your product to really make them successful. And... For us, what we've been doing recently is we go in and we help them with that communication point, right? Like our developers know our tool the best. And so if there needs be, like we'll stop and we will actually go in and do a presentation to the wider team and be like, okay, you guys have set up this POC. You've tried it out. You really like it. Here are the benefits. Here are, you know, here's how we describe it. Here's how, you know, We have seen other companies succeed with this and we have some decks that are basically ready to go. So we can go in and actually help them with that communication stage as well. Brian (13:34) Yeah, that's awesome. Well, then let's, because this is fascinating, and I really enjoy kind of the idea of trying to be an advocate for the developers. But I'm curious as well, with your upcoming talk at Agile 2024, by the way, just I don't think I've said the date, but July 22nd through 26th in Dallas, Texas, go to. AgileAlliance .org. You can find out more information about it. I think I've told everyone here on the podcast, I'm speaking there as well. So come and see both of us in my hometown in Dallas. So Marie Kondo, your data pipelines with SQLMesh. Tell us what was the idea behind this, where you got the idea for this talk, and what it is you're trying to get across in it. Marisa (14:18) Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Well, here's the story. One of our users, I was doing case studies for our, for us, because we need to understand our business value. We need to show people that like they can get this, these, you know, these cost savings, these productivity savings and things like that. So I've been doing interviews with some of the companies that currently use SQLMesh. And one of the, one of the interviewees, we were just chatting and he was like, oh, You know, he brought Marie Kondo up and he was like, yeah, like SQLMesh just brings me joy. It brings joy back to my data engineering. And I'm like, well, wait a minute. What, wait a minute. What do you mean? mean? like, oh yeah. Well, I mean, you know, we spend all of this time. Fretting Fretting about these data pipelines, getting the correct data down the pipeline, getting the business needs on the timeline that they need them, you know, updating your production value or your production environments with, with anything new that's been requested. And. Brian (15:01) you Marisa (15:21) there isn't really a proper process for data deployments, right? Like for code, you know, we have GitHub, we have Git, we have all these things, right? You make some changes, you save it, you test it out, you make some more changes, you save that, you test that out, right? Like all of these iterations, they create all these versions and these checkpoints. But on the data side of that, there is nothing. It's just like match disks and toothpicks that hold up some of these. Brian (15:30) Yeah. Hahaha. Marisa (15:49) some of these pipelines, right? And that's become the standard. I'm not saying that this is particular companies that are doing this or something like that. It's pretty much everybody. And all of this falls on top of your DevOps engineers or your data engineers that are a very small percentage of your company. And they're treading through this escalating technical debt, right? Every time you add a new table, every time you add a new dashboard, that's a new backend that they are managing, right? It becomes very stressful for them. And... This individual was saying that he had lost a lot of the joy out of his work and you spend how many hours a day working, right? This is a huge chunk of your life that it's just like, oh my God, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to make that change because the pipeline currently works. It's not broken. It's not broken. Don't change that type of thing, right? But this isn't what business is. This isn't what agile is. You're supposed to iterate. You're supposed to make these changes. You're supposed to investigate. Brian (16:24) Yeah. Right. Marisa (16:42) find new things and find new insights. And you can't do that unless you start changing things. And so he had said that once they started implementing SQLMesh with the different features that it has with this virtual data environments and these data versionings, and we have these data contracts that essentially allow you to turn, have checkpoints for your data and have essentially unit tests for your data. He was like, oh my gosh, now I can not have to worry about it. I can just try something, see if it works. And then if it doesn't, it doesn't matter because I can roll it back super easily and things like that. So that's really where the inspiration came from. Brian (17:21) That's awesome. Yeah, that's such a huge hole and it's such a needed kind of component to the stack, as you said, because, you know, I mean, you're right in kind of a programmer world. And, you know, if you're outside of the database world, there's all these tools you can use and put in place and test and see how things are going. But that fear that you have when you work in the database world where if I make the wrong error here, It could mess up all our data. It's not just that it's going to present it in the wrong way, but it could actually damage, which is a valuable asset. It's a hugely valuable asset, the data that the company has, maybe one of their most valuable assets. So yeah, that's an amazing tool. And... Marisa (18:10) Yeah. Cool. And these days, yeah. Brian (18:16) So this is also an open source project, right? So tell me how that's been interacting with the community on this and working in a corporate environment, but also it's an open source environment on this product that you're a developer advocate for. Marisa (18:19) Mm -hmm. Yep. Yeah. Well, I love it. I love open source. As I mentioned before, open source is kind of my bread and butter because Streamlit, you know, was essentially the other end. I've gone from the dashboard side, which Streamlit is basically a free open source dashboarding tool that's built just in Python, to the side of the tables that make that, and the SQL that makes those dashboards possible in the backend. And so this, it's something that I really love about my job because... I've been lucky enough to work with a bunch of tools that are super useful and that people really love, uh, and that they have that they, you know, people who co -founded it, that there are co -founders all came from huge fang companies, right? SQLMesh was basically born out of these data problems specifically to solve them because they had been literally experiencing them at these companies themselves. And they, you know, went out and were like, okay, what's the solution out there? And, you know, uh, Brian (19:21) Yeah. Marisa (19:31) There's this, there's another company called dbt. They were pretty much the first one on the scene. They've been around for like, I want to say like 10 or 15 years and they changed the space. Like they really did make some huge advancements. But the thing is, is they came at it from a completely different angle than we're trying to come at it because they came at it from the almost like the data science and data analytics side. And they weren't necessarily thinking about future, how big these data sets were going to get with. Brian (19:52) Yeah. Marisa (19:58) these different like Netflix, Airbnb and stuff like that, right? Their data sets are huge. They're parsing huge amounts of data. And, you know, in the current tools, the systems that you have, you have to refresh your entire data warehouse every time you want to make a change to production. If you have a terabyte worth of data that you're trying to refresh every single time you make a change, that literally, you're just, you're twiddling your thumbs. Your analysts are just like sitting around waiting anxiously to find out. Brian (20:03) Yeah. Marisa (20:27) you know, if those changes they just made to the sequel is actually viable and good, right? So, sorry, I think I lost. I think they lost the train of the question I got all passionate about. Brian (20:32) Yeah. No, no, no, that's fine. That's fine. No, I mean, I was just, I was asking about, you know, kind of the interactivity with the community on that and working with, you know, these open source projects, you know, you have volunteers, you have people who are giving up their time for free, basically to improve your product. That's got to come with a whole just mess of other considerations and concerns and how has that been? Marisa (21:07) Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's been good. And where I had been going with that point was that I've been lucky enough to work with companies and tools that are super useful, that were developed out of pain points that other people have experienced. So that side of things has been really great. When you're trying to develop a community, I just try to make the most welcoming space so that people feel comfortable in asking any sorts of questions. Right? Because that is the only way that you kind of surface some of these things that might've been otherwise hiding. Right? If people are nervous to ask questions, then you're not going to really have a proper conversation around, Oh, well, wait a minute. How did you get to that point? Like what led you to use it this way or to do it this way or something like that. Um, and so, yeah, there's lots of considerations, but we've been lucky enough that the, you know, a lot of our users are very happy with it, but also are. Brian (21:38) Yeah. Marisa (22:01) because of that, they're very vocal and they are very happy to, you know, take that five, 10 minutes, fill that survey in or meet with me and talk through, you know, a case study or like how they found SQLMesh and how it's going and stuff like that. So I think that the real balance comes in as to how much time do you want to dedicate my time? Do you want to dedicate to doing these interviews and getting this feedback versus Like, oh, we've already got like a pretty large signal that the next feature they need is this. Like, let's just run and do that feature and get that out for them, as opposed to continuing to bog up their time with interview questions or survey questions and bog up my time with it as well. So I think that's more the balancing point is when do you start acting on the signals that you're starting to see from your community versus like just constantly collecting data? Brian (22:56) Yeah. And I love your point there about kind of creating that welcoming environment. It's very similar to what we talk about with just teams of the whole psychological safety kind of aspect of it. And if I feel like I can't say something without being made fun of or feel like I'm made to look stupid for my question, then you're right. I don't surface the things that I should, even if it's, you know, just, hey, I'm not sure how to do this and getting help for that kind of thing. Marisa (23:22) Mm -hmm. Yeah. And I mean, I feel like with open source communities as well, they're all online. And this is a, I like that psychological safety and I like to try and promote this friendly environment because there's no guarantee that the person on the other end even speaks English. They might be running it through a translator, right? Like you have no idea. So they need to have like that safe place that they can just be like, oh, Hey, I tried this, but I couldn't get it to work. Right. And then that's when you can start to expand and be like, Oh, okay. Well, actually this person is from. Brian (23:39) Yep. Marisa (23:54) I don't know, like France, they speak French, right? So you're trying to translate kind of back and forth, either in your head or with a tool. And it's kind of like, okay, well, what else can I do to help them? Right? It's like, oh, well, what they need is a more in -depth, like getting started guide, right? We need to add these steps in or put this little note in there that's like, hey, if you get tripped up and you get this error, that's because of this and this is how you fix it type of thing, right? So that you just kind of like fill in those gaps of knowledge. Brian (24:23) Yeah. I mean, there's probably so much that we could extract just from the remoteness of the team that you work with, because open source is an area where there is no office. It's not like we all come into the same place. And yet, it works. So for people who think it can't work if you're remote, well, open source is proof that it can. Yeah. Marisa (24:37) Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And not because of that, our team is a hundred percent remote as well. Right. Like our entire Tobacco team works async, right. And we're only able to do that because of different tools and processes that we have put in place and, and that we do have this community and our community is a, is a Slack community. We actually, we could put a link in or something so that people can check it out if they were interested. But, but yeah. And, and that community isn't just about. Brian (25:11) Sure, sure, sure. Marisa (25:16) that specific tool. And I think that's also another thing that you want to surface when you're talking to developers is that this isn't just a space to ask questions about SQLMesh or SQLGlot, it's a space to talk in general. What are some of the best practices around evolving your data pipelines? What, you know, do you have any questions about your DevOps? Like, you know, what, what are people using for their cloud service provider? Why? Like, you know, did you switch from this to this and, you know, What was your thoughts around that? And, you know, what do people do with a dataset that is, you know, 300 rows and, and like 700 columns, like, how do you deal with this size of data? How do you want to, like, how do others mutate it? Like, do you incrementally load it? So just like try and load in the newest data. Do you only re when do you refresh these, like all these questions and all of this conversation needs to happen because we need to start deciding on a proper process and. DBT had started doing that and we're trying to continue this conversation. Brian (26:16) Yeah, I would imagine that's working with the product as well, that that's very beneficial to even product development. Because you can hear from them, even if it's not part of your product, but if you hear those questions about, hey, well, how have you handled this, or what do you do in this kind of scenario, I can imagine that would lead you to maybe new product ideas based off of some of those conversations. Yeah. Marisa (26:43) Oh, absolutely. 100%. I don't have like a specific example at the top of my head, but I definitely... Brian (26:48) Right. No, no, no. Yeah. Yeah, it could come from this. So it's community, right? I mean, it's just the importance of having that community and not just being, no, we can only talk about this one product here, but no, we're a supportive community and we help each other here. Yeah. Awesome. Well, this is fascinating. And I could talk with you about this for a long, long time. I'm looking forward to your talk. Marisa (26:55) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Brian (27:16) So I haven't checked the schedule yet, but I'm gonna, hopefully it's not on one of those times when like, normally, I don't know if you find this as well, but it's like the ones that I start and think, oh, that's the one I really wanna go to, turns out to be the one where you're speaking or somebody who's a lifelong friend is talking at that time. You're like, I can't miss that person's. So I'm hoping that's not the case, cause I really wanna come and hear this talk and hear more about it. Marisa (27:17) Great, thank you. Yeah. Brian (27:45) Thank you for giving us your time and helping us to understand this, Marisa. I really appreciate you coming on. Marisa (27:49) What? Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Join Brian Milner and McCaul Baggett as they explore the power of empathy and storytelling in successful Agile transformations. Learn McCaul's five-step approach to effective communication and discover strategies to overcome common pitfalls in organizational change. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner sits down with McCaul Baggett, Chief Agile Officer at CAVU, to discuss the intricacies of communicating change within organizations. They delve into common pitfalls in Agile transformations and highlight the importance of empathy and storytelling in engaging teams. McCaul shares his five-step approach to effective communication, emphasizing the power of testimonials and spreading awareness. Tune in to gain valuable insights and practical tools for navigating and leading successful Agile transformations. Listen Now to Discover: [1:10] - Join Brian as he welcomes McCaul Baggett, Chief Agile Officer at CAVU and a master of Agile transformation, to delve into the secrets of successful Agile transformation. [3:15] - McCaul emphasizes the critical role of storytelling in engaging and guiding teams through the process of Agile transformation. [5:57] - Brian addresses a common challenge in Agile transformations: navigating the unknown and its impact on team dynamics. [8:01] - McCaul explains how effective communication and a compelling narrative can help teams grasp their value during a transformation. [10:40] - McCaul advocates for going beyond the basic 'why' by incorporating testimonial narratives to create more meaningful connections. [14:39] - Brian suggests using these tools to foster empathy, advocating for their use in both top-down and bottom-up approaches when initiating a transformation. [16:29] - Dive into Mike Cohn's book, Succeeding with Agile, for practical advice on navigating your transformation. Discover strategies for communication, overcoming resistance, and other key aspects of Agile success. [17:54] - Brian inquires about effective ways to connect with and engage resistant individuals within the team. [22:49] - Join McCaul and Brian as they discuss the importance of creating specific best practices that suit the unique needs of this particular team and organization. [28:07] - Brian shares a big thank you to McCaul for joining him on the show. [28:33] - Join Brian in attending Agile conferences to connect with and learn from Agile experts and peers, fostering valuable discussions and insights. [29:53] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. [30:35] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. References and resources mentioned in the show: McCaul Baggett Communicating Change Made Easy with McCaul Bagget and Tom Bullock Succeeding with Agile by Mike Cohn Agile 2024 Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. McCaul Baggett is the Chief Agile Officer at CAVU, specializing in Agile transformations and effective communication strategies. With a focus on empathy, storytelling, and practical tools, McCaul helps organizations navigate change and foster sustainable Agile practices. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors, we're back. This is another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have the one and only Mr. McCaul Baggett with us. Welcome in McCaul. McCaul Baggett (00:13) Hey, thanks Brian, really glad to be here. Brian (00:15) Very excited to have you. For those who aren't familiar with McCaul, McCaul is the chief agile officer at Cavu. He has been working in transformations for quite a long time doing some large-scale transformations at different organizations. One that he is allowed to publicly mention is John Deere, but there's others that he's been a part of as well. You know companies are funny that way. They don't always necessarily want you to publicize things for some reasons. I don't know why. McCaul Baggett (00:43) Yeah. Brian (00:44) We were joking about that earlier. But I wanted to have him call on because we were both at the Agile 2023 conference, and I saw him on the agenda, and it was one of those sessions I didn't get a chance to go to, unfortunately, but really thought it was an interesting topic. I wanted to have him come on and kind of chat with us a little bit about this. So his topic was about communicating change and communicating change in an easy way, you know, kind of making that an easy process. So let me start there with you, McCaul, on this is, what do people get wrong when they're going through a transformation and we make the decision to go through a big change in our organization? What are some of the common pitfalls organizations fall into when they make that decision? McCaul Baggett (01:34) Well, let me start by saying it wasn't me solely that was doing the talk. I did have some partners there with me. And if you look it up, you should definitely speak to them as well or look them up as well. Dana Dismukes is a transformation lead for Dell. Tom Bullock is the chief storyteller for Scrum Inc. And really the academics of the talk came out of Tom's brainchild. But through my work, I got a chance to apply it. And it was precisely because of this very issue, the ch- the- non-working approach that many organizations take to communicating about change. There's a tendency in a lot of change management structures to discuss the need for communication, but as Agilists, we don't inherently do a lot of study of the nature of communication. And so I would say probably the biggest, most common error that people in a transformation of any kind and most close to my experience in Agile transformations make in communicating about change is going about it from a way that is, from the perspective of trying to reassure their teams, their departments that this is something that has leadership endorsement by communicating from the top down. I mean, please forgive the hierarchical metaphor, but getting some senior leader to say, hey, this is gonna be great, you can do it, we're gonna do this. When in fact, the most effective way to communicate to someone, especially someone who's not fully bought in, is by telling them a story of someone who is like them, has experience like them that they can relate to. And that storytelling perspective is what we talk about in this talk, Communicating Change, maybe. Brian (03:16) Yeah, there's a lot just in there to unpack. I mean, just the idea, thinking about, I've talked with a lot of organizations and a lot of people have come through classes and stuff that I've talked with who are going through changes like this, but then they're not really even sure how much their leaders are on board with this. They just, they have some layer of management who says, yeah, this is what we're gonna do, but do the people at the top really feel that way? Do they even know what it is that we're doing? McCaul Baggett (03:34) Sure. I mean, that's even tougher. I would find it hard to even consider it a true transformation if you can't be sure your leaders are bought into it. But you're not wrong. It is stunning how often you get these folks that you run into and they say, my leadership may be willing to do this. I teach a lot of Scrum at Scale. And so we talk a lot about executive Metascrums and executive action teams and prescriptions about how involved the leader should be. And people will sort of stop and say, wait, you want a leader to meet about team obstacles every day? And I say, yeah, or however long those executives are willing to let their teams go without support to removing their obstacles. Like, what is it that they're doing that's more important than clearing the impediments for their teams? But that does tend to be the perspective is, I don't know if my leaders even bought into this change. That's tough. Brian (04:34) Yeah. Yeah, it is. And I think that speaks to some of the fundamental flaws, I think, that people have with transformations before you even get to communicating, right? Just do we know why we're here? Do we know what it is we're trying to do? Those kinds of things. I like to focus on the communication, though, here because communication is such a McCaul Baggett (04:46) Yeah, that's true. Brian (04:56) delicate beast. I mean, it just, you know, when you're trying to speak with another human, even if it's just within your team, you know, it's difficult because we're different personalities and we have different backgrounds and everything else, much less when you're talking about it over an entire organization. I would imagine, and you, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I would imagine that one of the biggest sources of kind of consternation or, you know, anxiety I think when these kinds of things happen is the unknown, just not really understanding how do I fit in and what does this mean for me. McCaul Baggett (05:33) Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Sometimes it's phrased that it's termed what's in it for me. And I think that's the wrong perspective to take. People aren't often necessarily, people are not always looking for some kind of payoff for the transformation. They don't need to know sort of what they get out of it. But I think that you really put your finger on a lot of the reason that we see trepidation with a transformation is because it implies that Brian (05:38) Mmm. McCaul Baggett (06:00) Business as it had been occurring before was not acceptable. What you'd been doing previously was not good enough. And now we need to get you to do it another way. That inherently sort of fundamentally starts with a position of questioning whether or not your position is stable. And that gets, you get some amygdala hijack stuff going on. You get the brain started worrying about existence, not just change. So you're right, contextualizing. Brian (06:26) Yeah. McCaul Baggett (06:29) your communication about this is really important. And I think taking a perspective of empathy and meeting especially resistance in a change environment, a changing environment, meeting resistance with an attempt to understand the perspective really fundamentally underpins any successful communication you're gonna have about change management in general, but communication in particular. Brian (06:52) What do you think about that, McCaul? I mean, if you're a leader in that kind of organization and you recognize this and you see, people are gonna, I'm gonna send people into a little bit of a panic, right? Because you're right, there's no way that I can hear that message, hey, we're gonna do things differently than the way that we've been doing them without kind of self-internalizing, well, that means that something I've been doing has not been acceptable, it's not been good enough, it's not been what the organization needs. How do you communicate that in a way to say, no, it's not you, right? It's kind of a process thing. It's not that you did anything wrong. It's that we found this is a better way of working. McCaul Baggett (07:30) Yeah, so I think starting with that fundamental basis of why this is occurring is really key. But even before you get to the communication about why, it's really important to figure out who it is you're speaking to. So going back to that sort of, that empathy piece, there is a need to get that communication about, okay, it's not that you did anything wrong. and here are the reasons why we're doing it, that is the message we're looking to communicate. But at a communication level, like understanding even how to begin that communication really requires us to take a step back so that we can consider the people we're telling that story to. So just to connect this to the topic that actually came up in the talk about how we do that communication, it's really fundamentally about, and just a quick aside about that talk. So in the Agile 2023 conference, we actually applied for a longer workshop, like 120 minutes, 160 minutes, one of the long time boxes. And they'd come back to us and said, why don't you do one of these 30-minute segments? So we really pared down a lot of the things that we wanted to say. And so to connect back to what really, what emerged was actually, it was actually probably a better talk than if we'd had a longer period of time to do it. We just, we had to cut everything until we could come back with just, Brian (08:36) Yeah. Hahaha. Mm. McCaul Baggett (08:58) the real good nuggets. And what stayed was this. In order to communicate effectively when you're going through any kind of change management process, first of all, having a change management process and a plan for how you're gonna manage that, that's your beginning. But to get a little bit more particular about how we communicate about that change, there is one technique which we agreed was probably the thing to focus on so that it would be most universally helpful. in any stage of a transformation that was going on. And that was creating a, finding a way to create a narrative, a personal narrative that could connect to the various people that you're trying to connect to, right? So to create a testimonial. And so we spent our time in that talk discussing how to really get a useful testimonial. And then once you've... got that how to do something useful with it. And we outline kind of five steps for how to think about this. Brian, tell me if I'm getting too deep or you kind of want to... Okay, cool. And I don't know that these are the only five steps. We try to make it easy to remember. The takeaways that we were trying to give were, you have to be first thoughtful about what it takes to make a compelling testimonial. So this is where I mean, you can't start with why. Brian (10:00) No, no, this is awesome. Go for it. McCaul Baggett (10:21) we're doing this, you have to start with who you're speaking to about why. Because the why shifts. If you're speaking to stakeholders, there's one why. And if you're speaking to the organization, to your employees, to the people that are doing the work, it's not that the why is different, but the way that you talk about it may be different. So once you know what it's going to take to make the testimonial, the next step would be to think about how you can work. how you can set yourself up ahead of time to maximize the potential to make an impact with your audience, to plan. how you're gonna get the story, the testimonial that's gonna resonate. Which is the story that I wanna tell? So fundamentally what we're doing here is we're assuming that, testimonial, this is only one way to communicate, but it's a fairly useful one universally. If you're going to try to get that testimonial, what are the questions that are gonna be useful to the who that you've identified ahead of time? What is the story you need to find to tell? Then step three is actually. having the conversation. So you've already done a lot of pre-work ahead of time before you even begin the process of the discussion. And then once you've started the discussion, once you've got it, using that testimonial, which is typically recorded kind of like this, grounding that in a way that doesn't sound overly positive and really connects with reality, and then using what you've got to spread that awareness as broadly as possible. So five steps. Know, think, get. ground and grow. I don't know if that's a useful mnemonic of any kind, but that's what we came up with. Brian (11:59) That's awesome. No, like I said, easy to remember. Just a few things to kind of keep in mind there. Yeah, I love the concept of telling it as a story, that we're not just, because that makes it much easier for me to see myself then fitting in there. Like we talked about earlier, right? If I have a fear of, oh my gosh, does this mean that I'm gonna lose my job? Does this mean that I'm gonna have to... McCaul Baggett (12:03) Yeah, just five steps. Brian (12:24) now do something that's very different from what I've been trained for or what I'm used to doing or what I wanna do as a career, telling it as a story can kind of allow me to see myself in the story. McCaul Baggett (12:37) You are exactly right. Not only does it allow you to do that, we as humans are wired to do that very thing. We do it all the time. In fact, when you're listening to a podcast like this, you'll often sort of have the sense that you're sitting at the table, thinking through, like you're literally exercising pathways in your brain as if you were participating in the conversation. And that direct involvement allows you to mitigate some of the inherent resistance that you. that you find, that amygdala hijack, that fight or flight response is not present because you're following along in a story, hopefully about a successful element of the transformation. So you really engage that piece right from the very beginning. Brian (13:20) Yeah, I love this and understand to the listeners as well, right? I mean, we're speaking at like a neuroscience level here and trying to understand that, you know, the preparation that needs to be made so that, uh, like McCaul is saying, there's not that amygdala hijack going on of just saying, uh, oh my gosh, I'm panicked. I can't get past this panic. Uh, you know, in my, that's going on in my head that has to be stripped away. That has to be. resolved so that now I can start to learn, now I can start to see and form, like you said, the new pathways. And that is, you know, physically what's going on. We're forming new connections in our brain to say, oh, I've never seen it this way, but let me try to make this connection and see it a different way. McCaul Baggett (14:10) Yeah, not only is it important to do that, we as humans, now I'm stepping a little far beyond my training, so I'll be careful. My understanding is that fight or flight response really lives in an entirely different system, in the limbic system of the brain, much earlier part of the brain. And in order to engage the neocortex at all, or in any significant way to create those Brian (14:21) Ha ha ha. McCaul Baggett (14:39) pathways to be able to see a perspective of the other than our own, we have to kind of dampen that limbic response, that fight or flight. Will I, won't I have a means to feed myself beyond this space? Am I safe before we can start to begin that conversation, to begin that connection with someone we want to connect to? Brian (14:59) Absolutely. And I think this applies not only, I mean, we started in kind of approaching this from sort of a high level top down, like you said earlier. But I think it applies even if you're a Scrum Master, or maybe you're part of a small group in the organization. Maybe you are in an organization that's not agile in any way, but you've gotten permission to have a pilot, to just have a pilot team. McCaul Baggett (15:08) Sure. Brian (15:28) and your desire is to grow this in the organization, or maybe they're doing it poorly and you wanted to have one pilot team that does it the right way so you can start to spread this out to other places. All this applies, I think, to you as well because you're gonna be communicating this and you're gonna encounter the same resistances, right? You're gonna have the same kind of skepticism. You're gonna have the same kind of possibility have someone have amygdala hijacks going on thinking, Oh my God, what's this guy doing? What's this woman doing? Why is she trying to make these big changes in the organization? Is she gonna try to change my job? Yeah, am I under threat? So while we started top down, I think it applies bottom up as well. They're all principles I think we have to think through before we even start to try to communicate with this. McCaul Baggett (16:05) Yeah, am I under threat? Oh, absolutely. I mean, any good scrum master is gonna be thinking and hopefully practicing their ability to deal with any tense conversation. And so that limbic engagement, that epinephrine and adrenaline start coursing through the brain. And you can see it in many people when you're looking at group dynamics, regardless of large or small group dynamics, but any group. that shutdown of the ability to really process new information and assimilate it, you have to start by working past the threat. You have to get people beyond that sort of defensive place before the conversation can even begin. Yeah, I agree. Brian (17:01) Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Well, in how we're talking about this, I kind of had this one scenario in mind I wanted to kind of run by you because I know I've encountered this before. I know, you know, I've encountered this in classes before. So I'm curious kind of how this communication approach would kind of adjust for this kind of individual. But what about the person who just sort of is crossing their arms McCaul Baggett (17:11) Sure, hit me. Brian (17:28) And they kind of take the approach of, ah, this is a fad. It's not so much as an active, hey, I'm gonna really counteract you and go against you to try to dispreview, but I'm just gonna, you know, I'm not budging. I'm gonna stay here, because I know this is a fad and it's gonna change eventually back to the way I wanna do things. So you do whatever you wanna do, but you know, I'm not gonna get on board with you because. I've seen lots of things come and go on this is just another McCaul Baggett (17:59) I think that takes a couple of forms. Certainly some of those, and particularly when I've been asked by an organization to come and do training, you get a lot more of those because, nope, they didn't raise their hand to come and join a public class or something. I think there's really two significant flavors of that engagement. One is, as you described, someone who's just sort of like passively waiting for this to sort of blow on by. And that's a lot more tricky than the one that's actively pushing back. By far, I prefer someone who's willing to stand up and say, this is not going to work here and here are the reasons why. Because to come into the space of someone who is not choosing that engagement is inherently threatening. So you've picked a very challenging person to get through to, um, because directly calling them out and being like, Hey, Brian, you've been really quiet. What do you think of what's going on? when they were not inclined to share that, sort of already starts to engage that, am I prepared to risk saying out loud what I think is gonna happen? And it also, it could inherit, it could just by the nature of asking them to speak out loud that they don't believe in what's going on around them, sets them apart from the rest of the group and could mean that makes them something of a target if they don't feel like their culture is a safe place to speak. So, That is your problem Often I have found that a testimonial based approach, one where you can tell someone's stories about someone in a similar position, not stories about why this is going to work from a leadership position, but a testimonial based communication campaign is one of the best ways to reach folks just like this. You don't need to directly address them. You don't need to confront them. It's fine. If you're not, if you're not buying this, that's okay. Why don't I tell you about where it's happened elsewhere? And frankly, that thing is one of the things that training in person used to be so great for, because you could stand away and kind of watch these people who weren't necessarily bought in, sit back and just study what was going on in front of them. It wasn't being forced on them. They could just sort of watch their teams and you'd do something silly like. Brian (19:58) Yeah. McCaul Baggett (20:17) play any number of the Agile games that are meant to demonstrate things like small batch processing or teaming, right? Team dynamics and that joy that human collaboration and competition can bring in a really small scale in a very short amount of time and like a magic trick you could be like was that fun? Was folding these paper airplanes and throwing them across the room fun? And they'd be like yeah it was fun it's paper airplanes whatever I'm not working and then you could take a step back and say okay Was it fun because you just love folding paper airplanes or was it fun because you were making connections with people that you don't get to do in your daily job? And just sort of, again, the story here is, look what's over there. Look what this says about the nature of communication. It's not testimonial based per se, but it is lighting that fire, that inspiration that I always loved about training. And it's not just in person, but it really... I do miss that about in-person training because you could really connect really well. Brian (21:19) Yeah, I mean, we're talking about communication in general and we can't escape the Agile Manifesto comment about it. It's best done in person face to face, right? So it doesn't mean you can't in another way, it just means it's best that way and it works easiest that way, right? Yeah, I completely agree. Yeah, I just wanted to just, go ahead. McCaul Baggett (21:28) That's right. That's right. I'm sorry. Not to go too far off topic, though, but to that very point, we see this request of many executives later, the return to the office movement being another form of, is that the best way to communicate? Yeah, it is. Is it the only way to communicate? Should we be seeking that to the detriment of our work forces at scale? And there are many reasons that people are choosing to encourage their. employees to come back to the office. But I think part of that is because leadership is also far easier in person. So we're missing some opportunities for leadership to understand how to lead remote teams and may have caused that sort of same challenge. Anyway, another topic. Brian (22:23) No, no, I agree. And I think that part of that as well is just kind of the general whole. I've talked about this a couple of times in the podcast where we, we seem to be stuck in a cycle of trying to find out what is the way to do something versus what is the way for this team, for this organization to do something. There's lots of data out there that we can get, can inform us. Just like if I'm a product owner. There's lots of data that can inform me about the market, but ultimately I've got to make the call about what's right for us to do next. Same thing with the organization, same thing with the team. What's going to work in this instance? McCaul Baggett (23:03) Absolutely. It's probably one of the biggest challenges that I think, uh, when we see transformations, not even transformations, when we see an agile, um, enthusiast really go off track and good. I did it for sure when I was a new scrum master. Like this is how the scrum guide says we're supposed to do things and we're not doing these particular things. We need to do scrum the right way. that sort of the willingness to take a step back and say, well, there are a lot of better practices. Is there a best practice in our case that is true? Actually, the challenge is not, is there a better practice in all cases? And almost certainly not, but there may be a better practice in our case, even a best practice in our case, but you have to be willing to let go of the dogma of this is the way it's meant to be, and instead seeking, seeking to be informed by these, yes, science-based studied practices. It is better to be in person, but let's not fire all our remote employees. Let's, let's figure out another way or let's make teams that can figure out other ways to do it. Brian (24:11) Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we're in an interesting time, I think, as far as that's concerned, because like you said, it's the dogma, I think, of pragmatism and what's gonna work best in this scenario. Yeah, I struggle a lot in classes, even, when people will bring up certain topics, to ever say always, that this is always, it should always be this way. McCaul Baggett (24:22) Yes. Yes. Brian (24:36) Because I don't know, I frequently will say things like, my experience has been, what I have seen is this, but that's just my experience. And that's a limited set of experiences. You have to line that up against what you've experienced and what your organization is going through and say, hey, does this sound similar? Are we seeing those same things? Are we not seeing those same things? There are best practices. There are some things that we could say, yes, this... And a lot of situations will work best in this way, but not all. And that's where it takes experience. That's where it takes somebody who's been there before to know. McCaul Baggett (25:16) Well, yeah, and a lot of this grew up in a very particular environment, right? So Agile practices, many of the ones that we've adopted, grew up through software, and through software in North America. So one of the things that I've been passionate about, and one of the reasons that I've pursued the career that I have is because a lot of the Agile community looks like you and me, right? So if you take into account not only are these the, quote, Brian (25:29) Ha ha. McCaul Baggett (25:43) but it's for teams that tend to look like you and me, tend to live in North America, and tend to be working on software. And that's such a narrow area that we're foolish to assume that such a thing as best practices have been codified yet. Brian (25:58) Yeah, no, and please, for the listeners, don't get me wrong because if you listen to the show, you know I'm a geek for the data. And I love being able to have really hard scientific data that you can look at and say, hey, studies show that this is how you do this, but you gotta be cautious about asking, was that a rigorous scientific actual study or was this just an internet sampling? McCaul Baggett (26:13) Yes. Brian (26:26) That's not a scientific study. That's just kind of gathering people together and saying, hey, if this group of people who choose to respond to this, what do they think about something versus something else? But you're absolutely right. You have to understand the basis of where this comes from. And the basis of where we get a lot of our stuff is people who look like you and me, who have been working in the software industry for kind of the time we've been working in the software industry. So things have changed. McCaul Baggett (26:50) Yeah. Brian (26:53) cultures change, cultures bring different dynamics into things. And what works for my team of five, six developers based here in Dallas, Texas, is going to be very different from my team that I have five people in India and three people here, or even all the team is in India, or all the team is in Malaysia, or all the team is in Saudi Arabia or Ireland. I've worked with teams all over Israel. McCaul Baggett (27:09) Yes. Brian (27:23) You work with teams in different cultures and you have to understand what the playbook I used for that last team ain't gonna work for this next one because they're different people. McCaul Baggett (27:32) I heard the term coined radical pragmatism. It was, JJ Sutherland said it. And it was, it is precisely what we should be shooting for. Radical pragmatism informed by the best data, informed by the best science, and then immediately thrown away when it's not applicable to the situation we're in. Yes, these are the ladder, the rungs, the steps to head in the direction we need to be headed, probably, but let's evaluate them for ourselves and reevaluate. Brian (28:02) Yeah, if you're gonna go buy a car, you're gonna do your research, you're gonna figure out what gets the best gas mileage, blah, right, all this stuff. But then you're gonna get on the line, you're gonna test drive and go, I just like the way this feels. Ha, ha, ha. McCaul Baggett (28:12) That's right, test drive the car, yes, for sure. Brian (28:16) Awesome. Well, this has been a great conversation. I really have enjoyed having you on, McCaul. And yeah, thank you for kind of sharing kind of some of the wisdom in there from the talk. I know we, you know, the talk was not long and we have not long to kind of dissect stuff here in our podcast, but I appreciate you making time to share with us. McCaul Baggett (28:36) Absolutely, Brian, this is a pleasure. And if you ever need somebody to shoot the breeze with again, give me a call. Brian (28:42) I will take you up on that. McCaul Baggett (28:43) Thanks.

Join Brian as he discusses the crucial elements of sustainable agility with Leor Herzfeld, Agile Coach and CEO of Integral Agile. Dive into the human side of sustainability and discover the 14 dimensions essential for creating a culture that truly engages. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner sits down with Leor Herzfeld to unpack the concept of sustainable agility from a deeply human perspective. They explore why external changes often fail and how a focus on individual health—encompassing safety, autonomy, mastery, purpose, and accountability—can lead to genuine, lasting transformation within organizations. Leor shares practical tools for leaders looking to foster an environment that supports continuous agile practices and nurtures employee engagement. Listen in as they discuss how to achieve a resilient and thriving workplace. Listen Now to Discover: [1:01] - Join Brian as he explores the vital role of sustainability in Agile methodologies with expert guest, CEO of Integral Agile and author of the upcoming book Reimagine Transformation, Leor Herzfeld. [2:09] - Leor delves into the meaning of human sustainability, explaining its significance and impact. [4:33] - Brian discusses the inherent resistance to change, noting that even positive transformations require adjustments. [5:22] - Leor poses the shift from thinking about only the holistic, healthy Agile culture and team to focusing on a healthy individual.  [7:14] - Brian and Leor explore what sustainability and sustainable pace practices entail in real-world scenarios. [10:03] - Leor examines the reasons behind employees' lack of engagement in their organizations and work environments. [11:49] - Leor discusses 14 key aspects of individual health that are essential for creating a sustainable and healthy environment at both individual and organizational levels. [14:03] - Leor shares a tool to assess the Agile health of your team or organization. [14:53] - Enhance your team's performance with Mountain Goat Software’s specialized private training, including exclusive classes for leaders that accommodate their busy schedules. Dive into training that promises to elevate your team and organizational health, ensuring success across the board. You can email the Mountain Goat Software team for detailed information. [16:43] - Leor shares how he measures the sustainability and health of the teams and organizations he works with. [18:46] - Brian highlights a frequent issue encountered in classes: Agile teams feeling unsupported by their organization's culture. [22:27] - Leor delves into the evolving landscape of the Agile world, exploring how shifts can foster greater organizational support and, thereby, sustainable environments.  [28:58] - Brian shares a big thank you to Leor for joining him on the show. [29:52] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes. You can find the schedule here. [30:17] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. If you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show, send us an email. We can’t wait to hear! References and resources mentioned in the show: Leor Herzfeld Integral Agile Integral Agile Health and Happiness Assessment Reimagine Transformation by Leor Herzfeld Organizational Transformation: A Case Study For Creating A Cross-Functional Team Of Teams (Art) Aligned To A Value Stream Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us by Daniel Pink Agile For Leaders Mountain Goat Software’s Private Training Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Leor Herzfeld is an Agile Coach and creator of the Integral Agile Approach, combines his artistic and scientific expertise to drive transformative changes in the financial and educational sectors. He is dedicated to developing advanced collaboration tools that enhance organizational design and enable seamless workflows, drawing from his unique blend of artistic vision and scientific insight. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're here for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I am with you as always, Brian Milner. And with me today, I have Mr. Leor Herzfeld with us. Welcome in, Leor. Leor Herzfeld (00:13) Thank you, Brian. Happy to be here. Brian (00:16) Excited to have Leor with us. Leor is somebody who we kind of cross -passed at the Agile 2023 conference this last year. And he had a talk there that was really, really interesting. And we wanted to have him on for a while now to kind of share some of the insights from that talk with us here on the podcast. So his topic was called sustainable agility. But we were talking about this before he had. So Leor, I'll kind of turn this over to you. Help us understand, because it sounds like that's maybe, that might be a little misleading into what we're really talking about. So what are we really talking about? Leor Herzfeld (00:56) Well, yes, so it's misleading from the perspective of sustainability with regards to the buzzword that it is today, right? So we think about, you know, are we being ecologically responsible and so on and so forth. But in fact, this is sustainability from a more human perspective. So what happens typically when the coach or scrum master leaves the team? Oftentimes things fall apart, right? When that kind of protective presence leaves. the gains that were made tend to erode. Now, why is that the case? Often it's the case because whatever change they've put in place was external. It was a process -oriented change and it's not something that really penetrated into the hearts and minds of the people there. Brian (01:44) Yeah. Yeah. I make an argument there as well. Cause I know this is something that, uh, like Lisa Adkins will, will mention is that, you know, if that, if that coach that leaves and there's a vacuum and a hole, and now they're kind of lost, that coach didn't really do a great job because part of our role is to create that capability so that they don't depend on the coach. Right. Um, so yeah. Leor Herzfeld (02:10) Yeah, and you know, I'm going to go ahead and take the coaches side here, which is a rare point of view for me. Don't get me wrong. I love coaches and I love agile. But I often think, you know, sometimes coaches might be coming at the situation from, you know, a lack of empathy. You know, they're very process oriented and I've heard many coaches blame the client for, you know, not listening to them where. Brian (02:16) Hahaha. Leor Herzfeld (02:36) you know, as a coach myself, someone who's been a coach for 15 years, I've always felt like it's my responsibility to connect empathically with the person because what are we doing when we're coming in to bring in a massive change? And in essence, Agile is asking people to think backwards, right? It's thinking from the perspective, whether we're talking about, you know, the definition of success is no longer output, it's now outcome. or we're not going to do right to left planning, they're going to say, oh, when's something going to be done? And we're going to say, well, I don't have a baseline for how your teams are performing yet. So let me get back to you in about a month after we'll establish what the team's velocity and throughput is. And that's a terrifying thing for people to hear who are accustomed to doing things a particular way for five, 10, 15 years. So when coaches come in and they're just like, well, here's the process and it must be done this way, why aren't you listening to me? You know, that's where I sometimes take exception with how coaches approach it. I see it as a personal responsibility as a coach to understand the intrinsic motivations of every individual with whom I encounter and really help them get that I understand that you're taking a risk. I understand that you've spent, you've gotten where you are today in terms of your career. You've gotten here by doing these things. And I'm now asking you to throw that out the window and do things differently. Brian (04:02) Yeah, it's tough. I mean, the change in itself, anytime we go through change, it's hard and there's resistance to any kind of change that we encounter in our lives. You know, even changes that we would seek out, you know, like getting married or having a kid or anything like that, you know, like it's, we, we, we, uh, we enter into those changes very willingly, but it doesn't mean that every aspect of that change is something that we embrace wholeheartedly, you know, uh, There's adjustment periods and there's just something that you got to get used to when you go through those. And I agree with you. I think the organizations are the same way, the people in those organizations. So I love this approach. I love kind of thinking about it from the human perspective and kind of the impact it makes there. So let's go further into it. So if we're talking about kind of the human aspect of this, help us understand that a little bit more. Leor Herzfeld (04:56) Right. So this is something that, you know, that integral agile, this is my company, we've created the integral agile approach. It's intention. So when I say I'm having empathy for coaches here, agile talks about how important the mindset is. And they talk about how important it is to create a healthy agile culture. But if you Google how to create a healthy agile culture or how to cultivate a healthy mindset, there isn't anything that someone can have a look at. and say, oh, I'll just do that then. And the reasons for that are, of course, is it varies place by place. And it's ethereal, right? It's a very difficult thing to codify. We've tried to do that anyway. So the basis of the talk I gave at Agile 2023 was about, if we're talking about sustainable agility, the individuals. So Agile often talks about healthy teams. But I never hear it talking about healthy individuals. And is it possible to have a healthy team if the individuals who make them up are themselves not healthy? Brian (06:05) Yeah, that's a very, very good point. And by the way, I got to just stop down here because I got so excited with our topic that I kind of skipped over really giving Leor a proper introduction. I'd said that we cross paths from Agile 2023, but you just reminded me that I didn't really introduce you. Leor is the CEO of a company called Integral Agile. And their philosophy is trying to work to have Agile deliver the results that it promises, which is, again, we were talking a little bit before we started about how that's just not always the case. We see, in fact, it's often not the case. There's a lot of circumstances where organizations are just not getting the promise that they thought they were going to get with Agile. There is a book that is not out yet, but is coming out that Leor is going to have out in a bit called Reimagine. transformation. And so be on the lookout for that. That's going to be a really, really important book, I know. So sustainable from a human perspective, sustainable is the person healthy, is the person working in a way that they can kind of keep that up over a long period of time. There was an interesting thing I came across actually on this that I don't know if you've. encountered this or not, but I know when the whole agile concept of working at a sustainable pace, before that even came up, I think it was from the XP team, when they had originally started to deal with this whole concept of sustainability, their original kind of approach was about, when they started, they actually quoted it as something like, people shouldn't work more than 40 hours a week. And they started from that perspective of we got to limit all this because we're having all these people work nights and weekends. And so let's just say people shouldn't work more than 40 hours a week. But that adjusted over time and it changed it to sustainable because what they realized was, well, for some people, sustainable is less than 40 hours. For other people, it's more than 40 hours. So who are we to say, you know, Hey, this is what sustainable is for you. You've got to find your own sustainable pace. Leor Herzfeld (08:31) Yeah, and sustainable pace is a part of it. But you know, if we're talking about so you you, you also may have seen, you know, the Gallup State of Work poll that came out last year. And we've heard about quiet quitting. And, you know, you just have to see now, especially with with Gen Z coming into the marketplace, and, you know, they've got a completely different mindset and they have different expectations at work. They have expectations that are valid. They have expectations around psychological safety, diversity, equity, inclusion. There are things that organizations are struggling to adapt to because there's been this kind of like, you're going to come here and work and you hear people being called resources and that makes us cringe. But there's this old school mindset. And again, I really want to respond to this with empathy and not make like where we are in the world today. This is a slice of human history. And it's very easy to look at, you know, to try and make things wrong, whether it's like there's a mismatch in culture, you know, boomers versus Gen Z versus, you know, millennials, Gen X, whatever. We've got different cultures. We've got different mindsets and we need to figure out a way to come together. So something like... Let's not work 40 hours a week is important, right? But it's not sufficient to say, okay, well, we now have a healthy individual. Brian (09:55) Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot more that goes into it, right? There's, I mean, that is part of it, obviously, because you don't want to have burnout and everything else, but I love you bringing up the point about quiet quitting and engagement. You know, there's clearly, you know, lots of organizations deal with this issue of engagement and having a disengaged workforce and trying to have engagement initiatives and raise the level of engagement of employees and all that kind of stuff. So it's clearly a recognized problem. It's clearly something that organizations struggle with and have experimented and tried to find solutions to. So from your perspective, what do you think about that? Why do you feel like organizations are having such a big issue with engagement with their employees? Leor Herzfeld (10:44) I think people don't feel valued. They feel like they're fungible parts in the machine. But more so than that, they lack a connection to purpose. So most folks operating in an organization don't know what the organizational purpose is. And if they haven't done their own personal development work, they probably don't know what their own personal purpose is. So they're in there to get a paycheck. And there's this kind of adversarial relationship. I would think most people kind of hate work, right? And again, maybe this is me just being utopic, but I really feel like it doesn't have to be that way, right? And there's this idea of, you know, even in any, something like a retrospective, we don't have time to do the retrospective. So like, you know, oh my God, if we're gonna try to really get down to a human level and try to connect with our people and see what motivates them intrinsically, Like who has time to spend on that? But wow, if you spend the time on that, what do you get? What's your return on investment there? If you can actually help a person connect to what they're passionate about and then how what they're passionate about can contribute to the organizational purpose, which might mean changing their role, right? It's like sticky icky and people don't want to touch it. Brian (12:08) Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like, uh, you know, if you were in a professional athlete of some kind and you played whatever game your sport, you know, has, and you just went from game to game to game and never stopped in between to watch the game film or analyze your, your, you know, uh, swing or, you know, right. You got to have that, those moments to stop and be critical, uh, so that you can then say, all right, well, this didn't work as well as we should have, but. Let's try something new. Let's try a different way of approaching. Leor Herzfeld (12:41) Right. So this is what we came up with. I've got, you know, I'm curious to hear if anyone has any feedback, but so far these have felt, they've gotten pretty good feedback. So we came up with 14 dimensions of individual health that we feel need to be addressed in one way or another. So I've got safety. I love Daniel Pink. So we've got autonomy, mastery and purpose. Personal growth, right? Brian (13:08) Yep, I'm with you. Leor Herzfeld (13:11) Person needs to feel like they're learning something or they're gonna get bored. Career growth, if there's no path for them to grow in their career, then they're gonna look for work elsewhere. Diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, right, very important. Play. Things don't have to be so damn serious all the time. We can have a little bit of fun at work, people. It's not dangerous. You need healthy relationships with your coworkers. Accountability. Brian (13:31) Ha ha ha. Leor Herzfeld (13:41) Um, and accountability is something that, that is not intrinsic to a lot of people. It's something that often needs to be taught and it's about showing up with integrity. Um, doing what you say you're going to do by when you're saying, by when you say you're going to do it, you know, being your word. And a lot of that comes from, and this is one of the reasons why I love scrum is it creates that accountability to the sprint goal. Hopefully in a way that is, you know, inspirational and not, um, command and control, um, mentoring. People need mentors. Achievement. This is another area where I feel modern Agile for very good reasons is missing something. So we look at performance at the team level. Absolutely makes sense. Let's not look at performance at the individual level. This can create an anti -pattern where we're now saying, well, you're better than you and that's not what this, but there needs to be some kind of an empirical feedback mechanism for an individual. understand how they're improving and that's not something I've seen thus far. Physical health, so there's your 40 hours a week and perhaps some other things and finally mental. Brian (14:43) Yeah. Yeah. Those are good. Yeah, I'm just trying to think through. And I don't think I can't, off the top of my head, I can't think of something I would add to that list. That's a really good list. Leor Herzfeld (15:06) I'm sure it'll grow. So the talk that I gave only had 12, so we've added two. So I'm sure it'll continue to grow. But like everything else, you know, perfect is the enemy of good. So, you know, what we've created here is, so we've got the list of 14 items, and then we've got this kind of shoe -hawry journey of, you know, are you even on the journey? So there's actually... Brian (15:11) Hahaha. Leor Herzfeld (15:31) tool for this on the Integral Agile website where you could go in and there's four questions for each one and if you answer at the first one, it's something like, let's take autonomy for example, the first one might say, I'm told what to do all the time. And then there's a journey from there. So it's not like you have safety or you don't have safety, you can have a little bit of safety, have a little bit of autonomy. So we created this beginner master, beginner practitioner master journey. And we've tried to set master it, you know, the objective is to get to the practitioner portion of it. We've tried to set master as like a really unattainable thing at work. Just to, you know, and if anyone gets there, it's amazing. But just to indicate that like our objective is to be practicing these things. We want general health, not expertise in every dimension. Brian (16:11) Ha ha. So is it kind of a, do you take kind of a survey approach with an organization that you have everyone in the organization kind of rate this and then get an overall score or how do you measure it? Leor Herzfeld (16:32) Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. So where I propose this for various different enterprises. You start, so this is applicable anywhere, right? This is applicable to leaders. This is not just applicable to team members. Leaders are feeling all of these things and oftentimes in more dire ways than team members might be. But if we were gonna deploy this across the organization to get a pulse on what's actually happening, we would do this on a team by team basis. So from an individual perspective, the results will be all over the place. Every team's answers are going to have some patterns. that align based on the team's individual culture. Then if we go to the team of teams area, again, so we're gonna see things, a little bit of difference, because different teams, one team might have a stronger scrum master, and therefore their culture is a little, they might feel more psychological safety or more autonomy. So that'll let you know, right? This gives you like a real big indicator of how agile you are, because agile teams will tend to score a little bit higher on some of these. on some of these results. Anything that's happening at the team of teams level that's consistent is telling you that you've got a systemic problem in that team of teams level. And then of course, you raise it from there to the organization or to the enterprise. So the hope is where you see in an organization something lacking, these are not terribly difficult things to remediate and the remediations for them may or may not be agile. Brian (18:06) Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, I'm just, I'm fascinated by this concept and, and, and I, I like how you broke it down on different levels because you're absolutely right. I'm just sitting here trying to process it through as you're talking through it. And yeah, I can think of scenarios I've been in where we felt like the team has been great or we have a certain level of, like you said, safety or something within a team. But then we feel sort of like the organization is not listening to us or the organization has a different set of values. cultural values than the team does. That is something that I encounter quite a lot in classes too. I hear a lot of people who will say that, that our team is doing all that we can, but we feel like our organization is in a different place culturally and how do we make an impact there? How do we change that? So how would you handle that? What would you say to the teams like that, that feel like we're doing pretty well on our team, but our culture and our organization is just not. kind of in alignment with where we are. Leor Herzfeld (19:13) Yeah, so the trick with culture is it's very difficult to see. So this is another tool that we came up with something we call the Integral Cultural Map. So in any organization, in any given area in an organization, there's going to be one of three dominant cultures. There's going to be a risk averse, you know, rules and roles kind of a culture. Right. So that culture is going to be, you know, rife with red tape. making sure that we do things the right way. There's a process for the process for the process. And then the next kind of culture that we see is achievement oriented. This culture is gonna be very exciting. There's gonna be a lot of innovation going on. We're gonna be like results, results, results, bottom line. But the pitfall, so let me go back. Let me make sure that I talk about the healthy and unhealthy versions of these cultures. So the healthy element to the risk averse culture is obviously, you know, Brian (19:46) Right. Leor Herzfeld (20:10) we're gonna be very safe, lowercase s. So you're not gonna get a lot of dings by compliance in an environment like that. However, the rate of progress is probably gonna be pretty slow. And achieving oriented culture, very exciting, lots of great innovation, but the dark side to that might be very individualistic in terms of, you could have political infighting, you could have leaders, Brian (20:14) Yeah. Leor Herzfeld (20:40) not wanting to relinquish their own little fiefdom if it means, you know, if it's indicated that it makes sense from like some value stream mapping diagram, it makes sense to kind of break things up and create cross -functional teams. They'll say, no, no, no, I want to hold onto my teams. You know, so you'll get that as one of the dark sides of the achievement -oriented culture. And then you get what Agilists love is the people -centric culture. And that culture is going to be very much about ensuring that we have... health and morale. But the pitfall of that culture is it abandons achievement. So, you know, you might have people coming out of a meeting where everyone feels great about the conversation that took place, but nothing was actually accomplished. So there's a fourth level to this. And this is, I'm kind of like talking about something that's inside of integral theory. This is the levels portion of integral theory, if people are familiar. Then there's an integration of all three. And one of the things we try to espouse is, you need control, you need achievement, and you need morale. You have to have all three, but you don't necessarily have to have all three in every area of your enterprise. So if you have an objective that says, I want to make 10 million more dollars, but the culture of the area that is in control of achieving that objective is either we care about our people's morale or we care about making sure that nothing breaks, you're unlikely to meet that objective. So a different tool that we have that reveals these invisible cultural value schemes. And of course, the thing that creates the culture in any area of the enterprise is its immediate leader, which is why you'll see the enterprise itself might have, you know, let's say an achievement oriented culture, but then a particular organization might be very people oriented and another organization might be very, you know, rule, role, risk averse. Brian (22:36) Yeah. That's fascinating. Yeah, I mean, I see exactly what you mean. And I see how those things kind of interact with each other. So tell us a little bit about, because I know you have this book that's going to be coming out. And you described it really before we got on about how it's sort of your theory there at Integral Agile. So re -imagine transformation. What are you trying to capture? with this forthcoming book. Leor Herzfeld (23:09) So it's really taking this thing that we've worked on for the last five years, this integral Agile approach, and breaking it down into a series of tools that people can use. Again, Agile's been very good to me, and I like it very much. I think that it's a little bit sick right now. We've seen there's been like Capital One just declared, hey, we're good, let's get rid of our coaches and scrum masters. And... I, the shine is definitely, I don't want to go so far as to say it's become a dirty word because it hasn't, um, and the industry is still growing, but the, the luster has gone off it. And that's because it's failing to the deliver the results it promises. So after people have been through a transformation two, three, four times, I've dealt with this myself, right? I'm, I'm coming to a team and they've had, you know, three coaches before and they're like, well, it hasn't worked before. Why is it going to work with you? Um, and it's almost like, I used to joke, you know, it's like, um, bad, you know, significant other syndrome. Like the person, like you're dating someone and their last three significant others, you know, treated them like garbage and they're like, they've got that trauma built up. Um, so we're just trying to help everybody with this book. The reasons why agile fails when it fails is because it's only addressing half the problem. It's addressing what you can see. Um, so what we wanted to add into it is how do we take the elements that we can't see and how do we add them back in? not from a, this is an important thing, let's do this perspective, but literally in every single element of everything you do, how do you add it in if you're giving a one -to -one? How do you add it in during sprint planning or during backlog refinement? When you're thinking about OKRs, how can we think about it from these internal and external perspectives? And the thing that we've been challenged by, that we feel pretty good about now, but it took us a really long time to get here, is how can we describe these internal processes that quite frankly many business people have no appetite for whatsoever. How can we put it in a way where they will want to give it the attention it deserves? Because if it's not given the attention it deserves, these invisible blocks, whether they're cultural elements or values mismatches or, you know. people just hate their job, right? People are not aligned with purpose. How can we do this in a way that's visible, that's simple, and that people will actually want to buy? So that's the objective of... Brian (25:47) I think that's an awesome take because I know one of the things that we try to do in our classes and one of the things I hear from people who come through classes a lot is just, you know, there's a lot of discussion in sort of a lofty, high ideals, wouldn't this be great if things worked in this way? But, you know, a lot of times people don't really understand, all right, well, that's the way it should be in totality. But here's what I'm dealing with on a day -to -day basis. I've got OKRs. I've got all the stuff that I've got to do. How does that change what I do on a day -to -day basis? So I think that's really wonderful. I think that's a really needed aspect of that is, you know, kind of in the practicality, how does this play out on, you know, just what we typically do on a regular basis as a business. Leor Herzfeld (26:38) Yeah. I mean, if it's not practical, who cares? You know, I'm a giant nerd. I love getting into theorizing and thinking about all of these things at the end of all of that conversation. If I can't say, try this, here's the way to try it. If I can't explain a concept to you in 15 minutes in a way that you can use it, I failed. Brian (26:41) Right. Yeah. Yeah, I'm right there with you. Well, this is fascinating stuff. And we're going to put a lot of links in our show notes for this episode so that you can get in touch with Leor if you want to find out some more about this or maybe find out about the book that's coming out. Maybe get on a list to be able to buy that once it's available. Also, so you can get in touch with this company at Integral Agile. But this is fascinating stuff. I really appreciate Leor, you taking the time to come on and help us understand this a little bit. Leor Herzfeld (27:36) Yeah, I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you. And I'll also note that on our site, the majority of these elements are just right there. So a lot of the stuff, the models, the diagrams, how you can actually do these things, we wanted to give that away. So we're just looking to, in a general sense, well, now we're looking to bring Agile back from the brink. I mean, I hope it's not the brink, but we want this to work. And the reason why my company exists, Brian (28:00) Ha ha. Leor Herzfeld (28:06) is we want to make people's lives better. Our objective is to make people's lives better at work. The first time I ever worked with a Scrum team, the difference in the way they showed up at work, the way they spoke to each other, it was night and day. They're laughing, they're happy. And I think about it, a colleague of mine once said, I'm tired of doing this agile thing. I don't need to help whatever bank make an extra $5 million. And I'm like, dude, that's not what we're doing. I mean, sure, it's a knock -on effect of what we're doing, but every life that we touch where that person feels lighter, feels more able to express themselves, we spend the majority of our times at work. And if that time is misery, then you go home drained, dejected, and you bring that energy with you to your friends, to your family, to your children. If that time is something that, you know, okay, joyful, could be, I like to think so, but even just not painful, it has an effect. So that's what inspires me and that's why we're here. Brian (29:15) That's awesome. I'm right there with you. Completely agree. It is important. It is important how you show up and what you do at work. It's kind of one of the things I say to people sometimes is both things can be true at the same time. It's fine. Yes, we do help from a business perspective. We're helping people be more efficient with their business and get more from less. And... really achieve higher levels of success. But at the same time, we're also helping people to have more fun at work and to enjoy their time at work, not be miserable with their time at work. Leor Herzfeld (29:54) Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I mean, I, you know, that's a good point you're bringing up. I know we're just about out of time, but I, you know, I don't want the message to get lost that this is like some touchy feely kind of a thing. Um, this is the way, if you want that 300 % boost in throughput, you need this to get there. You're not going to do it by throwing new process at the situation. Brian (30:17) And I'm geeky enough to just have to repeat that phrase again. This is the way. All right. Well, thanks again, Leor. I appreciate you coming on. And we'll make sure people can get in touch with you. Leor Herzfeld (30:22) I love it. Awesome, thank you, Brian.

Join Brian for the 100th episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast as he dives into the future of Agile with fan favorites Scott Dunn and Lance Dacy. Listen in as they explore the evolving role of AI, the continuous need for leadership innovation, and the Agile community's journey towards greater accountability and effectiveness. Overview In the 100th episode, our expert panel celebrates by examining the latest trends and enduring challenges in the Agile industry. They discuss the critical need for organizations to adapt and innovate, particularly through leadership and management strategies that foster high-performing teams. This episode is a deep dive into how embracing change and technological advancement can propel the Agile industry forward, ensuring that organizations not only survive but thrive in an ever-evolving business landscape. Listen Now to Discover: [1:10] - Join Brian in a special celebration of the 100th episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, featuring a look forward to future innovations in Agile! [1:43] - Brian kicks off the landmark 100th episode with a forward-looking panel on Agile and Scrum's future, featuring experts Scott Dunn and Lance Dacy. [4:01] - Listen in as Brian asks the panel to share their insights on emerging trends within Agile and Scrum, setting the stage for a thought-provoking conversation. [4:15] - Lance highlights key trends including solutions for scaling challenges, the integration of AI in Scrum, and innovations in leadership and management. [6:54] - Scott emphasizes the enduring impact of Agile and Scrum in driving organizational enhancements. [11:36] - Lance underscores the critical need for leadership and management to adopt innovative approaches and acknowledge generational changes to effectively engage and support their teams. [13:30] - Addressing the provocative statement that 'Agile is dead,' Brian explores its implications on the real-world demand for Agile compared to its perceived necessity. [14:50] - Brian, along with Scott and Lance, urges the Agile community to recognize its shortcomings and learning experiences, which they believe may be contributing to negative perceptions of Agile, and how the community could approach it differently. [24:10] - Brian encourages you to try out Goat Bot, Mountain Goat software’s Scrum & Agile AI tool. This free tool is trained to handle all your Agile and Scrum queries—start asking your questions today! [25:58] - The panel explores the impact of AI on enhancing agility in organizational practices in estimating, development, and so much more. [32:20] - Brian stresses the importance of using AI as a tool to support, not supplant, discussing ways it can improve rather than replace human efforts. [43:23] - Brian shares a big thank you to Scott and Lance for joining him on the 100th episode of the show. [43:44] - Brian thanks you, the listeners, for your support and shares his excitement for the future of the show, inviting you to send us your feedback or share your great ideas for episodes of the show. Just send us an email. [44:57] - We invite you to like and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. [45:16] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM, or CSPO, or Better User Stories Course. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. References and resources mentioned in the show: Scott Dunn Lance Dacy Goat Bot Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant's heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Agile Mentors, welcome. This is our 100th episode. Can you believe it? We've been doing this for 100 episodes now. So first, before we even get into today's episode, I just wanna say huge, huge thank you to you. Thank you for listening. Thank you for giving us feedback. Thank you for giving us suggestions. We would not have made it to 100 without you, so. Huge thanks to you. And to celebrate, we're trying to do something different here for the 100th and not just let it go by and not mark this occasion. So what I wanted to do was to have some of our regulars, our favorites on together so that we could really kind of look ahead. So let me introduce our panel for today. First of all, I've got Mr. Scott done with us. So Scott, welcome. Scott Dunn (01:00) Thank you, Brian. Glad to be here. This is awesome. Congratulations. That's so cool. Brian (01:04) That, thank you, thank you, thank you very much. And then another favorite that we have on quite frequently is Lance Dacey is with us as well. Lance Dacy (01:13) Hey Brian, congratulations once again. I remember us just talking about this when you were starting out with podcasts and you look at 100. You do this every week, right? Is it a, has it been a hundred weeks? Wow. Brian (01:22) Yeah. Yeah, we do this every week. We missed a couple. Our listeners probably know there's been a couple of times in there we've taken some small breaks around holidays and other things. But yeah, this is going on just about every week since then. Lance Dacy (01:38) Well, congratulations. That's amazing. Brian (01:40) Thank you, thank you. Yeah, I'm amazed and as I said, very, very grateful. And it really hit home to me when I went to my first conference after doing this and people would come up and say, hey, I listen. That was really a cool moment. And I always tell people, hey, I'm speaking to other conferences, come and say hi. Come and say hi to me this year. So as I said, I wanted to have a panel so that we could talk about, we've been... Scott Dunn (01:40) Amazing. Brian (02:10) doing this for 100 episodes and lots has changed, lots have changed over the past year and a half, almost two years now that we've been doing this. We kicked off on, I think it was May 18th, 2022. So we're coming up on two years of doing this. And my thought was, what's gonna happen over the next 100 episodes? Like, where are we gonna be in the next two years? Where are we gonna be in the next five years? What kind of things are changing? What are we going to think about stuff over that time period? So I wanted to have a panel to kind of comment and discuss this with us and Where I wanted to start is maybe not where I think most people are going to think I'm going to go But I want to start with kind of the agile industry kind of the way things are going now for Coaches consultants scrum masters product owners So I'm gonna throw this as an open question and whichever of you wants to go first, go first. But what do you think we're seeing right now? What kind of trends are you seeing in that realm? And where do you think it's gonna, where do you think it's going? Scott Dunn (03:26) I nominate Lance to go first. Lance Dacy (03:28) Okay, here, obviously they're thinking about Scott. It looks like he's got something to say. Okay, well, that's a tough question because I think it still depends on the industry and the organization. It's all made up of people still. So there's still a lot of variables, I think, that affect the way that we do our jobs as transition coaches or business agility coaches or agile coaches, whatever you wanna call us. I think... Brian (03:29) Hahaha Lance Dacy (03:59) You know, I think there's still plenty of organizations out there that are struggling to bring their people together to deliver great products. And it's not because they don't want to, it's just lacking the skills and the frameworks and things to do that. So I still think that there's some organizations out there that benefit from saying, hey, let's just start from what we know and start doing this and then adapt to it as it changes. But I think a lot of times organizations, I think scaling is one of those big. problem child out there that people have kind of learned how to do this with smaller teams and smaller parts of the organization, but getting the whole organization to collaborate together. And of course, they look to another framework for that. And I'm kind of framework agnostic, especially when it comes to scaling, because I think at the end of the day, if you can't do it well in the small environment, it's going to be very difficult to do it well in the large environment. So the best thing you can do is kind of analyze your own situation. with like value stream mappings and cross-functional teams and things like that, and try to make sure that you're organizing yourselves and preventing waste as much as possible, I think is one of the big things. But I've also seen a kind of an uptick in, of course, these practices in agile being distributed over non-software domains. We've seen that for a long time, that's not necessarily a new thing, but I think it's gravitating more. to that. But I think the biggest one is really what we're talking about today is how is this AI stuff or what we have been talking about, how is that affecting this? And I think it's here quicker than we really think, or already here. And so trying to figure out how to handle, you know, data driven decision making based on that and, you know, using these tools to integrate. And then I think the last one that I would talk about is leadership and management. I think There's a specific type of environment and culture required for these people to thrive and collaborate and leadership and management has not seen a lot of innovation in the last 150 years. So, I find myself spending a lot of time coaching executives and mid-level managers on how to foster an environment that we can know how we practice psychological safety, empowering people and making it a great place to work, especially in this remote distributed environment. So I don't know if it's... All that's fairly new, but I think it's more prevalent than it was in the past. So I don't know, Scott, go ahead. Scott Dunn (06:28) No, that's good stuff. And I've only got 35 points I want to walk through. So one, I think we had all agreed that this idea of agile seems to be the common experience we're seeing as we're still coaching out there in organizations. They think that they've already done that. That's in the past. What's next? Or they settled in like, we're just hybrid. And it's not a. So help us move forward. It's like, no, we weren't done that. Here's this other thing. But the other things they're needing. And I like it, Lance. You kind of mentioned a couple of other words that people use, like organizational improvement, organizational chiasm, these ideas, like, hey, we're trying to get better. And I almost rather use those words because if I use a word they think they know, then we've kind of lost the fact that, you know, we're there. It strikes me, it's a little bit like marketing. They're just like, nope, marketing's done. And now we're doing this. And like, no, marketing's always learning, moving forward, growing. And I think we're gonna see this idea they realize, like, oh. Agile wasn't like a destination we check the boxes now they're on Scrum team. So that's one thing we're continuing to see. And the reason I'm saying that is the problems are still the same problems. We're talking earlier about capacity management, visibility, clear, you know, can execs see where we are in these larger initiatives? And the answer is like, no, they're still not doing those well. That speaks to whole org. And two quick stories on that is one, we're working with a company that decided like, yes, we're going to take this whole org approach. Lance Dacy (07:27) Yeah. Scott Dunn (07:45) And once they, within a few months, they'd gone from cycle time of 100 days down to 10. They had tripled their productivity. They went from one release every two weeks to seven in a day, right? But that's because the whole org is represented as they're rolling out, actually holistically. Let's contract that with a company we're just talking to this week. I was trying to describe getting a group together, it's representatives across other departments who have people who have authority, who have influence, finances, et cetera. they could not grasp the idea that there'd be a team working on improvement items across the org. It took several explanations, like I'm not talking at the team level. I'm talking about the team that's working across the org level. And what part of this comes back to is I think of the idea of I'm a manager. This is my own like awakening recently. If I'm a manager, let's say I'm the software engineering manager, I'm the director, my concern, this is my mistake earlier, my concern is not, are we doing ads all right? My concern is, is my boss getting what they want? If my boss wants clear reporting on where we're at the features, I don't care if it's Agile, waterfall hybrid doesn't matter. Did you show me a nice pretty report that gives them what they need? That's what I, that's what I do not wanna be called into her office on Friday about, right? So I keep mistaken, like they wanna do Agile, right? No, they wanna check the box and what they're accountable for and meet those expectations. And I know the higher up the or we go, the less they probably understand about Agile. At least that's the surveys that I'm running is like a... a 20, 30, 50% gap between what these people say their managers think they understand about Agile and what the people actually do in the work know that they understand Agile or not, which is always a large gap. A good example of that is remote. I'm not trying to kick a dead horse when it's down or whatever the saying is, but we've talked about remote a lot, but here's what we're seeing is, I think the basis of a lot of this return to office is simply, I don't know my people are working or not, I just need to see them. Brian (09:30) Hahaha. Scott Dunn (09:41) I can't tell, and I can't see them, I can't tell, and I get nervous, which really means I don't really have an understanding of fundamental aspects of how work is done using transparency, inspect and adapt, all that, right? And because I can't really, I don't really have mastery over that, I'm gonna need you in the office at least three times a week. Because I don't, I'm not really watching the work anyways, but at least I know you're showing up, and I'm accountable to make sure people are busy and working. That's, you know, I draw it down to its most rudimentary level. To me, it's a reflection of the capability of management. You mentioned that, Lance, about leadership. I think we're starting to see Lance Dacy (09:41) Right. Brian (09:52) Yeah. Scott Dunn (10:11) What we probably will see is this real cutting line of those who get it and trust their people and they work. And we've seen, you know, 10X, 100X on, on experts really let loose to do their best work and those who are simply like, you know, managed in that traditional sense and all the drawbacks and your loss of talent, all that. I think the companies will have to pay the price eventually. Thinking back to the time when people didn't really want to go ad drug because they thought it was a fad. And it didn't take but a few years, like, um, I could be wrong. Brian (10:35) Yep. Scott Dunn (10:38) maybe that is a thing we need to do, right? And then everyone gets on board, but there was a lot of kicking and screaming and doubting the early years. I think we're gonna see that with remote work is made like the proving ground of do you really work this way or not as a manager? Do you get this or not? So those are some of the trends I see. I still see a lot of people still in the very fundamentals because they think these things are already understood and known and we're moving on to something next. There is no next. I think the pace of change out there is if you're not working this way as an organization, you're losing ground already. Like... while they're listening to the podcast. Lance Dacy (11:08) It's like the remote, you know, what you were just saying is like the remote is the automated test for your operating system at work is like, if it works like that, then we're likely doing some really good things. But you know, I remember, um, I'm going to show my age here though, but prior to my technology career, I worked at FedEx and I was in leadership and management, managing their third largest hub here in Fort Worth, Texas, uh, the air hub, you know, and FedEx did a great job teaching leadership and management and all that kind of stuff. Brian (11:08) Yeah. Scott Dunn (11:14) Thank you. Lance Dacy (11:36) And I remember them focusing on the idea that you cannot lead and manage people currently how you are going to in the future because they were talking about how the new generation is coming on board and they just won't tolerate certain things. And I think you hit it on the head with that, Scott, that if these managers don't learn how to lead and manage with this newer generation, two or three removed from what I'm talking about. you're not going to have any employees because they will not tolerate it. They do not work that way. They work radically different. You know, I'm going to categorize money as a gen X person. And I'm going to say we were taught to be very individualistic, climb the corporate ladder, you know, keep your pain to yourself, just grin and bear it, fight through it, do the best you can and be autonomous and don't rely on a lot of people. And, you know, don't trust anybody. You know, the latchkey kids, we just were independent. We learned how to do it all. And that's not necessarily bad. We needed to be managed a different way than these people now. I, and I've got four kids, so I see it. It's like, they're not going to tolerate this stuff. So you hit it on the head with that leadership. I mean, coverage, a broad spectrum, but, um, Mike gave a talk in Oh nine. I'll never forget this. When I first went to the scrum gathering in Orlando and Oh nine, and he was on a panel and he said it really succinctly. He said, I hope we don't call it agile or scrum anymore. It's just the way that we work. Brian (12:36) Yeah. Lance Dacy (12:54) And he was referencing object oriented programming. You know, he said, we don't call it object oriented programming anymore, it's just programming, you know, object one. And so it's like, yeah, we're not going to, let's not have this debate. We want to build the highest business value things as early as possible with the least amount of costs who can argue that that's not the right way to run an organization. So let's not debate it. Let's not use the buzzwords. Let's just do it. Brian (13:01) Right. Scott Dunn (13:12) Yes. Brian (13:18) Yeah, I agree. And it's, you know, kind of back to what Scott said, too, there is a marketing issue here, right? There is this kind of idea of people are so saturated with the terms that they've experienced them and they feel like, hey, I know that I know what that is, I don't need to be I don't need to learn any more about that. And now I'm just kind of moving forward when they don't really. And that's what drives all the people out there that are saying Agile is dead and all the Agile is dead speakers and all that stuff. It's not dead. And if you listen to them, they don't say it's dead. They just say, people don't understand what it is. And so they're doing it wrong. I think there's kind of this interesting dynamic going on. Right, because on one hand, I think we're at a time when Scott Dunn (13:54) Mm-hmm. Brian (14:03) businesses could benefit the most from doing things like Agile because they're gonna get the most with less by doing these kinds of approaches. However, at the same time, we're hearing stories of entire Agile departments being let go in different organizations. And we're seeing people who struggle after coming through classes and stuff finding work as a scrum master, even though there's a demand. There's high demand still for these kinds of things. So there's sort of this dichotomy that's going on of, I think there's a slump going on in the agile demand when the need for it is high. And maybe that's a marketing, right. Maybe that's a marketing thing that we haven't done a good job, but I wanna propose one other thing here and I wanna get your guys take on this. Lance Dacy (14:51) than ever. Brian (15:02) The people who say Agile is dead and they say that, we shouldn't be doing this because we should call it something else. Because no one understands what it is anymore. And that's why they say it's dead. I have generally thought of those, and I think many of us sometimes fault the leadership a little bit in this to say, they didn't invest enough to understand it. They didn't really support it, right? Kind of that mentality. But I think that as an Agile community, that we need to own up. Like, I think we just need to step forward and say, you know what, we have not always done it right. And there's been plenty, you know, I talked about this in the Scrum Master class. There's plenty of Scrum Masters out there who think that the job of being a Scrum Master is to schedule meetings. And that is it. And... Scott Dunn (15:55) Oh. Brian (15:58) You know, those people, you can understand why a company would say, I don't need that person. I don't need a person to do that. And then all of a sudden they're letting go all of their Scrum Masters because they think that's what a Scrum Master is. So I think we have to own up a little bit to say, we're partly responsible for this, right? We're partly responsible for the bad impression that Agile has and we just gotta own it and say, yes, that's true, but that's because we've made mistakes as well and we're learning. Lance Dacy (16:17) Thank you. Brian (16:28) And now we know better, right? Now we know what we're supposed to do. But the pretense that we maybe came into it with, saying, hey, we know everything and we know how to do this stuff, was what caused the downfall, I think. What do you think? Scott Dunn (16:32) Hmm. Lance Dacy (16:44) It's like the overlay though of saying here, here's how you do it, right? I think what we got wrong or not necessarily wrong, just we didn't know any better at the time is, I've worked with 20 companies and this way work, let's try it. And then if it doesn't work, we'll adapt it. Cause I think it's always been about that. But you know, just like any approach, you know, the effectiveness of that approach depends a lot on how it's implemented, supported, adapted, taught. And I feel like what we should just start focusing on, you know, it's hard to put this in one term, Maybe it's just like helping and facilitating the creation of high performing teams. Like that's an unarguable thing that you would want to have. What's happening is the organizations either whether they misunderstand the role or have a bad experience in the past with it because you can't say their experience is invalid, right? Everybody has their different experience and opinion and what they went through. And I acknowledge that. But if you think of any professional sports teams, what's happening in the organizations in this world? Brian (17:20) Yeah. Lance Dacy (17:43) is they're getting rid of the coach of the team. And what we have to do is start recognizing what does the coach really do is trying to make the team high performing. You know, in professional sports, it's to score points and win the game, right? Well, kind of trying to do the same thing here, you would never get rid of the coaching position saying, well, all they do is watch film and tell the team what they're doing wrong. No, I mean, Andy Reid, you know, the Kansas City Chiefs, they won the Super Bowl, arguably the best football team in the world, if that's what you're using as a bar. And... Scott Dunn (17:46) Thank you. Brian (17:55) No. Scott Dunn (18:03) Thank you. Lance Dacy (18:12) And so they've arrived, they're the best. Do we get rid of Andy Reid? No, they need him even more because they get complacent and they get this idea that we don't need to change anything. And I see plenty of teams like that. It's like, no, the coach has one of the hardest jobs in the world is to tell the best performing team in the world they can get better. And the organization sometimes is the wet blanket and suffocating the environment for which that team can perform. Scott Dunn (18:16) Thank you. Lance Dacy (18:37) And I feel like, you know, instead of whether you want to call it a scrum master and agile codes or whatever, it's almost hard to use those terms. Some of these people anymore, because they'll just sit there and argue with you about it, but let's just say I'm trying to coach a high performing team and how can you argue with that, you know? Brian (18:50) Yeah. Yeah, I don't think you can. Scott, what do you think? Scott Dunn (18:53) If I was to ask you, well, if I was to ask both of you, do traditional management, whoever's making hiring decisions, do they know what an agile coach is and what's in telling them that they're doing well or not? And I would argue the most don't. And I think that's why we see a lot of people, I mean, in the end, people follow the money. I don't call people for work and their own self-interest. So if I can just update my LinkedIn profile and change it to agile coach. and whoever interviews me can't tell a difference. And that means I get a salary bump and of course, or let's just tell it like it is. And I think your listeners, I know you to be good with this. If I can just take a two day class and I'm gonna get a 25% salary increase, whether or not I get it or not, let's not even go there. Like I passed the test, I've got the certification. And unfortunately, I think that's more the dynamics of any given market is like, oh, it jumps to the solution, right? I just, you know. hire these scrum masters and I've done the agile thing. And even though any of us would say like, that's much bigger than that, this agile coaching involved is much more than the two day class that you need, et cetera. But think about that. I'd look at the people that I've trained, which, you know, is thousands. How many companies actually came back and said, we need help as an agile coach? 20, 22 dozen, right? That we actually went in and did real transformation work. So that's them not asking. That's them like, no, we got it. I think that simplicity of understanding Do I take a solution or do I go through a mindset change? Well, taking the solutions is going to be easier. So I'm going to jump to that rather than like reflect, like, I think we need to change. Change is hard, we agree. So back to the point of like, are we to blame? I see some of that market dynamics, but we do that with diets. We do that with the career. Also Greg, we wouldn't just grab something easier than actually go through the change. So I do agree with you, but I think it's a good point. How we try to re-message that when the world already thinks I understand it. I think we're watching this happen. When I look at companies in that space, Brian (20:30) Yep. Scott Dunn (20:42) They are using different terms and phrases. I think that moves us away from, maybe that's an aspect of like, where to blame. The other interesting thing, Lance, you mentioned about the coach and we don't fire the coach. And I think that's the best example I go to is, look, I'm a business owner of a professional sports team. I'm watching the dollars and I don't wanna have to pay Andy Reid millions, but I know it gets results. And I don't wanna coach for the offensive line. I don't wanna coach for defensive, but the results are clear whether that works or not. Brian (21:03) Yeah. Scott Dunn (21:08) The other thing that's interesting is you watch some of these coaches, like when it changed in college football with name engine, name engine and likeness in terms of attracting students for different reasons. Like I can make money during college. I don't have to hope I make the pros. And how that changed the game significantly to where some coaches like, forget it. I don't want to play this game where they're now empowered to make their own decisions on where they want to go and not just sit on the bench. If I want to sit on the bench, the transfer portal. So you're watching dynamics play out on what does that mean to bring that change in? I do think in the end, there's probably a simple split on, there's an organization that needs to continuously improve and look for ways to do that. Not as one-off projects of, hey, let's do an improvement project here. But as a feeder backlog, but simply there's always ways to improve and stuff's always coming in and we're always working that as a layer of the way the organization runs. When I see a chief agility officer, some of these other roles, I think they get it. I think manufacturing systems get that with like lean thinking and like, That's just what we do. We're always looking for that. I don't think software engineering. And this organization get it. And to be honest, my friends, you can tell me if I'm off. I don't know if they got sold that truth of this is always going. It is not put all your engineers on the teams, hire a scrum master, change someone's title of product owner and you're good, right? But I think that's what they kind of thought it was. And then they're done, but that's a team level. It's not organization level and it just sits there. So I guess there is someone with the blame because maybe that's what they were taught and not the bigger picture as well. Brian (22:25) Yeah. Yeah. Scott Dunn (22:35) Perhaps. Lance Dacy (22:36) The rebranding is interesting the way you said that. I don't, you know, let's call it something other than Agilent or Scrum, whatever you were talking about. And that's what organizations do when things are broken, is they reorg. We're gonna just change the name of it. It's like following a diet plan and going, well, I don't like that it doesn't let me have sugar, so I'm just gonna call it something different. The constraint. Brian (22:48) Hmm. Yep, you're right. Scott Dunn (22:50) Yes, yes Lance Dacy (23:02) You know, the constraint is there to make you better. And I think that's what a lot of people don't get about, let's say the Scrum framework has a lot of constraints built in not to make it harder to do your work. And I will argue it's harder. Like I tell people all the time, this is a harder way to work. It's not an easier way because it requires all of us to come together. But you just said it so eloquently, Scott, I just thought about that, that they just, who cares what we call it. Brian (23:03) Yeah. Scott Dunn (23:16) Yes, for sure. Lance Dacy (23:26) the organization and the leadership is stuck by saying that at their level, all they gotta do is call it something different and now it's solved. All I gotta do is change the org chart on a spreadsheet. And I can't tell you how many organizations I work with where I'll get a note and say, well, we're going through a reorg right now, so we gotta hold off on this training or do this or do that. It's like, well, you just went through one, I've worked with companies that have been their coach for a very long time. It's like, how many of these are we gonna go through? What's the purpose? When are we going to start realizing that it's not who reports to who, it's who's doing the work and what's the environment and culture we've created for them. And I feel like leadership and management, I don't even care if it's software. Like Scott, you're saying software, we really don't get it. I'm not sure any company really, there's a few out there that I would say their leadership and management's working really well, but the operating system for the culture is broken. And, you know, we know that for a long time as agile coaches, but it's like, there's some benefits to be gained even while that's happening. Brian (23:54) Yeah. Lance Dacy (24:24) that we can get some efficiencies going here and they're still better off. But we've hit that next level, the problems are more complex now. People and it's leadership and it's hard to change those because they've been doing it for 150 years this way. You know? Scott Dunn (24:34) Yes. Brian (24:34) Yeah. Scott Dunn (24:40) Yes. Yeah. Brian (24:41) Yeah. Well, we can't leave the episode without talking about AI, at least a little bit, because I know you brought that up already. But yeah, we definitely need to think about AI in the future. And yeah, yeah. Because I know we talked about that a little bit when we were meeting here before we started to record. But just curious. Scott Dunn (24:46) Hahaha! Lance Dacy (24:52) leaders and managers. Scott Dunn (24:54) Yes. Brian (25:06) Where do you think that whole thing is going? What I should say is, how do you think it's going to affect agility? That's the big question. Lance Dacy (25:17) You want me to go again first, Scott, or is he going to flip flop? Scott Dunn (25:20) No, no, we're not flip-flopping. It's you, man. You got it. I'm not changing. Brian (25:23) Hahaha Lance Dacy (25:23) Okay. He has some reason to do this. You know, I feel like I'm walking into a trap here. Um, the way he's going to trap me. Um, well, and you know, we were kind of talking before we even, you know, started the podcast, but I was mentioning, you know, project management wise, you know, that I believe AI can bring a lot to just helping teams become more efficient and productive just at a superficial level by simply Scott Dunn (25:28) With pretty... Brian (25:29) No, that's a wrong answer, Lance. Lance Dacy (25:50) if we're talking about Scrum, let's say, because a lot of us practice Scrum and we teach it, you think about a sprint planning exercise and how often it's very difficult to just simply explain how to come up with your capacity for the next two weeks, and based on your skillset and the work needing to be done, are we sure and confident that the work we've committed in this next one, two, three, or four week period that we can actually get it done? as a cross-functional team within the constraint of getting something usable to the end user. I think a lot of people forget that as well. So I feel like automating things like sprint planning where you can feed in a profile of all of your different skill sets and their capacity. We no longer languish over this big spreadsheet that I used to use back 10, 12 years ago. There's a lot of better ways to do it nowadays, but I think eventually you just say, based on this team and what they've given me, here's how much work we can do. feed in the work and say here's the best sequence of the work. You know, the harder part is fitting, you know, utilization is not really a topic I want to get into because I think it's always misunderstood. But once you account for all of the slack time that you need to, you want to be as utilized as possible. I think using AI to help figure out what's the best path. Like I do an exercise in my class where I give them 10 backlog items and based on the different skills, capacity, and things that need to be done, what's the best fit? Right, so in data science, we talk about fitting the model. Why not use AI to help us be the best sequencing of the work with the highest value and the best way to use our capacity? So automatic task assignment, just like we do with calendars now, where people can feed in the work they need to do and it'll create the best calendar fit to maximize your workload. Automated code is coming, you know, we're already here. You know, automated. backlog creation, chat bots, AI driven testing. I think all of that is, if not here already around the corner, that's gonna affect, hopefully in a good way, the way that teams do that. Now, we can have a whole nother topic of how that affects product and marketing, because I think the biggest issue we have is getting closer to the user, and understanding and having empathy for them, because too often we get caught up in our own world that we're just... Brian (28:03) Yep. Lance Dacy (28:10) languishing through trying to get the work out. Well, why are we doing the work is the real reason and what's the best way we can get that work to the user that solves their problem. So I'll pause there. There's a hundred things I could go in. I had 35 bullet points. I have about 110, because I love this stuff, AI and data science and all that stuff. But Scott, I'd like to hear you had some good ideas in our pre-talk as well. Scott Dunn (28:14) Thank you. Thank you. Well, I appreciate you inviting me out to the Lance Dacey podcast. I just want to say thank you for that. Right when he drank his water too. Brian (28:37) Hahaha! Weird. Lance Dacy (28:44) Right. I can't respond. Let me take a scotch now that I can respond. Brian (28:46) Yeah. Scott Dunn (28:49) Yeah, he just needs to take a drink. He's ready to go. I know I love it. I love all the ideas in the Thoughtsland. So on my particular view, when we look at the companies we're helping, so we're Atlassian partners, so I'm watching what they're doing. And I mentioned about the fact that it can automatically do like acceptance criteria, you can ask. Anything about, take all the, what we used to call it, the tribal knowledge. It's gonna do that for you. I don't need to track down who's Lucy whomever. I'm just gonna ask it and it knows. I can say, give me a spreadsheet of the people involved with this. What's the background of this project? Any of that tribal knowledge is like, it's already there now. All that data sitting in Confluence, and Jira, et cetera, ability to create tickets. I'm not going and manually creating tickets anymore. I just say, create a ticket for this thing. So all those add up to lots of saving, time savings, all the manual stuff, anything that you just already know. And everyone hates making the tickets and doing so. it's going to take care of that stuff for you automatically. On the dev and engineering side, I'm seeing a lot around what seems to be promising, impossible, certainly code reviews, like there's a template of things that you know you're checking for in code reviews, readiness to go to production. Can it create these models and things? I think we'll wait to see. We're talking about the case tools, but I believe it will because it's not limitless on when we're creating basic applications. If you take your simplest thing like hello world, you know. or a basic screen that's only got five things or a login screen, there's only so many permutations what's gonna happen with that. And it can learn those things and do those things. Software engineering is your biggest cost for software companies, these engineers, and they're hard to find, and you got time zone issues and all these other things. Everyone's looking for ways to reduce cost right now. We've got issues of just getting the talent and the source, and you got parts of these engineers' work that they do not wanna be doing anyways. So I think you're gonna see a lot of those things put pressure on figuring that stuff out. But between the computing power that we're talking about, how much can be handled by those graphics chips and how much information is out there, I think you're gonna see real wins of measurable significance that's gonna be proven out and certainly driven by the business leaders themselves trying to find where can we reduce the cost with the promise of some of these things. But those are some that I've already seen. We're definitely watching, as I mentioned, Brian (30:43) Yeah. Scott Dunn (31:12) on the Scrum developer side, just saying like, what's happening out there? And just take a look and see what we can do. But you're gonna start finding the simpler solutions that are gonna be chipped away at first. I think about the self-driving cars. I remember thinking there's no way the car can handle all these, you know, what felt like limitless situations. It really isn't. There's only so many things happening on the roads and they have slowly learned to do that. I think it's gonna be the same on the engineering side as well. Brian (31:31) Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I agree with both of you. I kind of think that I've taken a stance on it, like in the past, I just see it as a tool. It's a more advanced tool and it can do some things better than we can right now. There's some things that does really well and there's some things that right now it's not very good at. And I think it's important to try to understand that, right? I'm not gonna, you know. I think I've come to a place where I would never say, I don't think it could do X, Y, Z, because I think that eventually it can. I think that there's gonna be things it can do. And it's just a matter of time before it can do pretty much anything that we could be doing right now. Even right now, one of the things it's really, really bad at is having ideas. It doesn't really... Scott Dunn (32:10) Right. Brian (32:30) brainstorm or it can give you ways of, it can give you some little tidbits and things that you can build upon. But having used it to help try to write a blog post or anything like that, well, here's an experiment, right? Go to any, your favorite AI and ask it for 10 business ideas based on whatever, just, Uh... Lance Dacy (33:01) Of course it's not going to be good at that. Brian (33:03) Well, no, it'll give you, it'll give you 10. Scott Dunn (33:03) There's a creativity problem right there. We have a problem with creativity. I see it. Lance Dacy (33:07) I'm just kidding, bro. Brian (33:08) Yeah, it'll give you 10, but then go back and ask it and do a new chat, ask it again. Do a new chat, ask it a third time. Compare the answers you got across all three. And what you'll see is it's a lot of reused stuff, right? And the reason that it's recycling it, the reason it's reusing it is because this is a large language model. This is pulling from what it's been trained on, right? It doesn't invent a new thing itself. Lance Dacy (33:33) Mm-hmm. Create new you Brian (33:38) Right, now again, I'm not saying that it can't do that in the future, but what we have today is not a creative source in that way. It has to have the training data, even image, kind of AI image generators, that's built on what it's trained on. So you can't train it to a point to say, give me a picture of something that you haven't been trained on, right? weird picture that you have nothing in your database to go back to and use as a reference. It can't do that because it can't imagine, right? Yeah. Scott Dunn (34:18) Yes, that's the key. Lance Dacy (34:22) I was working with a company, they do ads, helping people come up with ads. So a lot of marketing spend money out there, right? You can tell it what kind of market you want to go into, what your competitors are doing, and very quickly feed it some images, feed it a few websites, and it'll give you 100 different ads with the words and everything you want to take on it, and already give it a conversion score. Like... Brian (34:44) Yeah. Lance Dacy (34:45) this ad should get this amount. And it was amazing to me, because I kind of struggle with that anyway, as a business owner, creatively coming up with content and ads and things like that. Like we were talking about earlier, I don't think on this podcast, but like being a co-pilot, having the AI stuff be a co-pilot where we kind of use it as a tool. I think eventually it'll be vice versa, ironically, where we'll be the co-pilots. I think... You like personalized user experience, creativity type things like, you know, how we do AB testing and stuff. Why not let AI do a lot of that user research and spin up the code very easily and figure out click patterns and things like that. Like I could say, I need nine different designs for this one screen. I mean, that used to take weeks, if not months for a designer to sit and attend, I'm not trying to bash their field. I love working with them. And. They're very creative people, but I feel like that's going to be the next step with this AI is, hey, give me nine options. And then that designer spends less time creatively. They get better ideas sometimes. Maybe some of them don't like that. I don't know. I'm not a creative person like that. But I can see that helping me in saying, hey, I don't have to hire these nine marketing people or five marketing people. I can just say, hey, let's look at those things. So I think that user, that creativity, Brian, is what you were hitting on imagining things. Brian (36:02) Yeah. Lance Dacy (36:03) Yeah, give it a lot of data can give you options and then you can take that and come up with the ideas as a human, but yeah, eventually that'll all be taken over too, I think it's all taken over the world. T1000, here we come. Brian (36:15) I think you've got to have one of the concepts that's out there is referring to these as agents and having multiple agents that will carry out a different task for you. And I really think that's when I think about the future of this kind of stuff and how this would affect a typical software development team, that's what I see. We have hierarchies in our organizations that exist. And those are essentially different layers of agents, right? Lance Dacy (36:23) Yeah. Brian (36:43) And I think that that's what we're going to see with software development teams and other things is we'll have a deployed network of agents and these, these AI agents will speak to each other and they'll, they'll refine what each other do. Uh, right. And it makes it easier for us, but again, we've got to have the idea to generate it, to start it, right? It just, it can't do that on its own right now. Lance Dacy (36:57) make it easier for us. Scott Dunn (37:03) Cheers. There's definitely a few things where I've just been popping in, where I had to do some legal docs and I just went there and had it write them. They were great. Just fill in the blanks. I was waiting to get content back from someone about a speaker, maybe somebody to go about Mark Kilby on remote and waiting and waiting. I'm like, dog gone. I just wouldn't ask, you know, chat GPT tell me about Mark Kilby, what he does and grab that. And it did a great job. Put that out there. I didn't need, I didn't need someone else to do it. I didn't need to wait for that. Brian (37:31) Yeah. Scott Dunn (37:34) And I don't even look for creative art anymore. I simply say, give me this art. I do it in Creative Cloud. Give me that, and then you know, good enough's good enough. I move, because it's like you're touching on the delays on some of the things that can be the killer of that. I think in the same way back in the day, Sudhnyalanshi said that you're dating yourself. And I remember when I was younger, we just had electricity for the first, I'm just kidding. But think about the first time when you're telling people like, no, the computer could do that for you. Lance Dacy (37:35) I'll see you later. Scott Dunn (38:02) I feel like we're becoming a lot of companies now like, no, AI could do that for you because they just don't know. If they're working a certain way and they've been in that company for 20 years, they think, no, my job is to create the new insurance for them and then send that, no, you don't have to do all that. So I think it'll be a redistribution because for all of us to see here right now and say, I've let go of thinking there's limits to this and that's where I've come to last few weeks. And we're, and we're. Lance Dacy (38:23) Yeah. Scott Dunn (38:26) Well, I'm going to, I feel, I feel we're cutting edge. Your audience may say differently, Brian, but I feel like we're cutting. I feel like we're cutting edge. And if we're just coming to realization, there's not limits. Think about your traditional worker who's not necessarily a knowledge worker, they're just in the office. They have a certain role. It's been not too different over the last 10, 20 years. They have no idea. I probably could cut that. You mentioned Lance about the ads and I was seeing something recently that said that those AI ads can cut, can cut the design time by 90%. Brian (38:31) Yeah Lance Dacy (38:46) Yeah. I would totally agree. I mean, I tried it and you just like you were saying, waiting on delays to me is my biggest thing. Like the best thing we can do for an organization is a value stream mapping of some sort and say, where does the cycle times killing us? There's so much low hanging fruit there that you could turn that into millions of dollars. And if we were just quit articulating words for that, let's just go do it. I feel like that's what AI is gonna do for us. We were talking about the, Mike's Brian (38:55) now. Lance Dacy (39:22) written a book on user stories and all that. So I'm going to use that as an example, as a product backlog entry point to getting work done. And I think we were talking about this before the podcast. And I feel like eventually we're just going to have a user say, as a user, I need to be able to pay by MasterCard on this screen and make sure the error message says this. And if it is successful, do that. And we won't need programmers. The computer will take that. And it'll write the code for that. It'll deploy the code and it'll say, what do you think about that? And so when you talk about this with agile, but I don't know what we're gonna have these, we're just gonna have users that can now have software created for them. Just like I can an ad, you know, it's like, I'm gonna have this design created, but I speak to it in natural language. Who cares if it's C++, COBOL or JavaScript or Python or whatever, it doesn't matter anymore. The computer will decide. and write it, deploy it, and manage it, and take all the complexity out of it. That's eventually where I think we're headed. Brian (40:23) OK, I just want to state this out there for all the listeners. Make sure you at the right person on this. It's Lance Dacey who said that all the programmers are losing their jobs. All right, just make sure you get it right. That's who said it. Uh. Lance Dacy (40:36) Oh my gosh. Scott Dunn (40:40) Here's to seeing you all again. Lance Dacy (40:41) Did I really say all? I just said it's going to be a disruptor. I thought, but you know, I'm sorry. So just like I think you like your next designers, I think software programmers are just highly creative and great people. So I mean, no, uh, you know, no, just be on the lookout, find a way to contribute to the fact that your job. Scott Dunn (40:45) I heard everyone within the year. I think that's what I heard. Brian (41:03) Yeah. No, I mean, all teasing aside, I think that the developers who are using it now within their IDEs and locked into some of these tools that are available to have AI help them with code, they're ahead of the game. And people who are afraid of that stuff and saying, no, I'm not going to keep that at arm's length, we've seen this movie a million times. Right. Scott Dunn (41:03) Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Lance Dacy (41:19) Yeah. Yeah, played out over and over. It's like, you know what, Brian, two weeks ago, I don't know what the time is, I'm just being facetious right now, but a while ago, I would say that not true about programs because I say you will always need somebody programming the computer, but I've since now changed my mind thinking because I'm highly agile and I learned in that space and I drink my own champagne. That's not really true because I can go into chat, you know, I took, I'm a programmer myself, so I mean, no disdain about that, I remember in school, the first program I had to write was C++ about calculating the Easter Sunday date for a given year. And I had to write code to do that. And I tested that with my son over my shoulder, saying, I'm going to show you what ChatGPT can do. I said, write me a C++ program that calculates Easter Sunday for a given year. And I swear to you, in under a minute, all the code was there. Now, it didn't run. I had to take it and put it into an IDE and compile it and do all that stuff. But it worked. And it took me months to do that. So all I'm trying to say is it can help us be better. The creative side will always be there, but can you imagine not having to worry about code anymore? And you do more of prompting the computer instead of coding. That's really what I mean. I don't want to say their jobs are going away. I just think their jobs are going to be changed. They're going to be the next disruptor, just like I was talking about real estate agents and banking and all of us have been disrupted. But we gotta welcome it. Take it. Brian (42:37) Yeah. Scott Dunn (42:40) Yes. Brian (42:49) Yep. Yeah, right. Welcome to the party, pal. Yeah, no, I agree. Lance Dacy (42:57) Right! Scott Dunn (42:59) I feel like saying at this point, we should let all the listeners know that actually this podcast is AI generated and these are not actual people here. Lance Dacy (43:07) I'm not really sure. Brian (43:10) Yeah, this was done with the approval of these three people, but written by written by AI agents. No, no, it's absolutely not. These are real human beings. Well, guys, this has been a really interesting discussion. And I know we've gone a little bit long. But hey, it's the hundredth episode. Come on, cut us some slack, right? We got three of us here. We obviously are going to kind of diverge a little bit. So Lance Dacy (43:15) Good. Brian (43:35) Thank you guys so much for coming on and helping us to celebrate this 100th episode. I really appreciate it. So just want, you know, Scott, thank you. Scott Dunn (43:45) Thank you. Brian (43:46) And Lance, thank you as well. Lance Dacy (43:48) I'm about to say Lance, no thanks. Thank you, Greg and Brian. I always love being on here and Scott, great to see you. It's been too long. Scott Dunn (43:49) Yeah. Hahaha. Good job. Brian (43:52) Right. Scott Dunn (43:56) These two, yes, really enjoyed it. Brian (43:57) Awesome.

Join Brian Milner and Hunter Hillegas as they unveil Goatbot, Mountain Goat Software's latest AI innovation designed to transform how we access and learn from Agile and Scrum resources. Tune in to hear Hunter delve into the intricate process of developing and testing this AI platform. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian and Hunter Hillegas, Mountain Goat Software’s CTO, dive deep into the capabilities of Goatbot, an AI-powered tool that makes accessibility of reliable Agile and Scrum knowledge easier. Developed by Mountain Goat Software, Goatbot answers queries using the company’s extensive array of training materials, blog posts, and articles, ensuring that users receive precise and reliable information. The discussion also covers the rapid advancements in AI technology, exploring its burgeoning role in coding and testing. Join Brian and Hunter as they explore how Goatbot was created, its impact on learning Agile methodologies, and the exciting future of AI in software development. Listen Now to Discover: [1:05] - Brian welcomes our beloved Chief Executive Officer at Mountain Goat Software, and creator of Goatbot, our Agile & Scrum AI, Hunter Hillegas. [4:06] - Hunter explains how he and the team were able to make an AI platform to answer Scrum and Agile questions accurately every time. [7:07] - Hunter talks about the experience of working with and developing AI from a long-term programmer's perspective. [10:35] - Hunter and Brian share that Goatbot is available, accessible, and free on the Mountain Goat Software website. [12:25] - Hunter walks through the process of creating Goatbot and some of the challenges the team faced to bring it to life. [15:42] - Brian invites you to come on over and test out Goatbot, run it through its paces, and tell us what you think. Goatbot is free to use and specifically programmed to answer all your Agile and Scrum questions. Ask away! [17:23] - As a technologist, Hunter talks about the parts of AI that are exciting and interesting in the tech world. [19:05] - Brian points out the pace that AI technology is improving, underscoring its impact on setting new standards of improvement industry-wide. [22:36] - Hunter shares his approach to integrating AI tools in his coding and testing processes, highlighting when they're beneficial and when they're not. [28:46] - Brian shares a big thank you to Hunter for joining him on the show. [29:30] - Brian shares the array of complimentary tools available at Mountain Goat Software, including Relative Weighting, as well as those tailored for users in the Agile Mentors Community, such as Planning Poker. [30:41] - If you want to ask a question or provide feedback on Goatbot, email [email protected] [31:06] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. [31:39] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software. References and resources mentioned in the show: Hunter Hillegas Goatbot Mountain Goat Software’s Free Tools Mountain Goat Software’s Relative Weighting Tool Mountain Goat Software’s Planning Poker Mountain Goat Software Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Hunter Hillegas is CTO at Mountain Goat Software. With over 20 years in software development and a knack for creating high-quality digital solutions, he thrives at a company that values excellence in education and customer satisfaction, living in Santa Barbara with his wife and their distinctive Pitsky, Enzo. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We are back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I am with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have a very special guest, a coworker of mine, Mr. Hunter Hillegas is with us. Welcome in Hunter. Hunter (00:17) Hey Brian, thanks for having me. Brian (00:19) Absolutely. Hunter is our CTO. He is the guy who's all about technology. And anytime I have technology questions, this is who I go to. And he is very patient with me and helps me to understand things when I don't understand them. But we wanted to have Hunter on to talk about one thing in particular that we felt like maybe not everyone knows about yet. or maybe you've crossed paths with it, but really are kind of interested in the story behind it a little bit. That is Goatbot. If you don't know, actually, I shouldn't be answering this stuff. If you don't know what Goatbot is, Hunter, tell them what Goatbot is. Hunter (00:54) Yes. Sure, so as the listeners may know, Mountain Goat, Mike Cohn in particular, but also Brian and other contributors, we generate a lot of content, whether it's training material or blog posts, other articles. And for a long time, we've wanted to make that more accessible to people. There's just so much of it that that's always been a little bit of a challenge, even using search and other technologies. And like, A lot of other people, about I guess 18 months or so ago when ChatGPT launched, I became a lot more interested in large language models and got a better sense of what the state of the art was there. So Goatbot is our attempt to meld those two things together to try to solve that problem to make all of our content more accessible using some of that technology. So it is a tool that lets you ask questions about scrimmage topics and it will answer them based on all the stuff that we've written and trained on, etc. Brian (02:06) That's a great explanation. Yeah, that's what it is. That's the idea behind it. And I'm sure Hunter will back me up on this. I'll tell you, when we first started doing this, I was trying as much as I could to put it through the paces. And I think I may have even said this on other podcasts before, but my go -to question I used to ask any kind of LLM about Agile and Scrum, was to have it tell me the difference between a product owner and a product manager. And in fact, I would say specifically, what does Scrum say the difference is between these two things? And the answers I would typically get, they would just give me an answer. They would say, well, a product manager is this and a product owner is that. Hunter (02:46) Hmm. Brian (03:00) And I remember telling Hunter, this is wrong. It shouldn't say that, right? Because Scrum doesn't have a product manager. How are we able to handle those kind of one -off kind of exceptions in working with this? Hunter (03:14) Sure. So anybody that's used some of the more general tools like chat GPT is like I think the go -to example that probably most people are familiar with even though there are other chatbots out there. know that, you know, sometimes it will give you wrong answers. Sometimes it will give you sort of strange answers. It will do what they call hallucinate and make things up essentially, because it really wants to give you an answer, even if it doesn't know what the answer should be. And, you know, that was something that I was worried about when I started to prototype this. Like we are, we have a, I think, I hope. to say, a great reputation in terms of the stuff that we put out there. And the last thing that I wanted to do was to put that in danger in any way by having some kind of a tool that's spouting nonsense out there. So. That was important. And I didn't really know how well it was going to work when I started sort of prototyping this whole idea. And I had some doubts. But what I discovered was that if I gave the model very specific instructions about where it should be pulling. It's, uh, it's information from, i .e. please only use this information I'm giving you, um, that is, we know it's from our materials and not sort of maybe some random article that they found on the web somewhere. That's part of the larger trainings that be very specific. And if you don't know an answer, say, you don't know, you don't need to make anything up. Um, so those sorts of what they call system messages did a lot of tuning there. Um, and ended up with something that actually works. pretty well, I think. I mean, it exceeded my expectations once I started getting, once I got to the point where there was something where I felt like I should share it with the team, that it wasn't embarrassing. And I feel like, you know, the feedback internally was really good and the feedback that we've gotten from people that have been using it has been really good. So I'm happy with how it's going so far. Brian (05:09) Yeah, I've been really, really impressed. It's been just a really nice tool. It's done a good job. We initially had it sort of internal, like you said, and we put it through its paces. We had kind of widening circles of people that would test it out and try it and give us feedback. And Hunter kept tweaking and making adjustments to it. But I'll tell you, I don't know if I even told this to you, Hunter, but I was doing a... ACSM class a few weeks back. And one of the opening exercises we do in that class is to really kind of consider some of the other Agile frameworks that are out there, not just Scrum and see how they compare. And one of the ones I have on my list is one that doesn't get used very often. It's kind of one that died out, but it's called Crystal or Crystal Clear if you know that or you're familiar with that. Hunter (06:00) Mm -hmm. Brian (06:07) But I wanted to see what the Goatbot would say about it, so I asked it specifically, just give me an overview of what Crystal is. And I think I said specifically the Agile framework Crystal, just to make sure it wasn't anything strange. But the response that came back was, I don't have any information on that. I know about Scrum, and I can give you answers about that, but I just don't have any information on anything else. And I. Hunter (06:21) Right. Brian (06:34) Honestly, it really impressed me. Here's another thing that it could have made something up and said, oh, yeah, yeah, it's this. Or it could have pulled from some general database or something else out there. But it's tuned really well to only pull from our data. And I just think that's awesome. Hunter (06:50) One of the things that's been strange slash interesting for me as a long time programmer in all kinds of different technologies from the web to native applications to other things. is how different it is working with these LLMs and trying to get them to bend them to your will. There are instructions in the system message that in all capital letters say do not make anything up. And the fact that I'm having to program a computer, I'm doing scare quotes here, program a computer by telling it not to invent things is just so bizarre coming from a very two plus two equals four world of more traditional programming. But it's also been really exciting and interesting. Brian (07:32) Yeah. Yeah, it is kind of completely opposite from a programming perspective, right? Because we're so used to, oh, it's not going to do anything but exactly what you tell it to do. And it can't fill in gaps at all. And now the problem is it could fill in too many gaps or try to fill in too many gaps. Yeah. Hunter (07:44) Right. Right. Absolutely. And you can think even just beyond, you know, your example of a, of a, of a framework that's not in common use and probably not something that we've talked a lot about on the website and our own own materials. There's all kinds of other instructions that I had to put in. Cause I didn't want this thing sort of going far afield and, and, and, you know, coming up with a really wacky, potentially terrible answer, um, to some of these questions. And so, yeah, we're, you know, we, we do give it some very specific instructions on how it should behave. Brian (08:21) I tell people who come to the class that, you know, I can't a hundred percent guarantee. I can't a hundred percent say, yeah, it's always going to give you a hundred percent the right answer. But what I can tell you is I've, you know, we've all put it through its paces. We've all asked it things that we feel like, Hey, this is kind of tricky. I wonder what it would do with this. And, uh, you know, just my own personal perspective has been when I, when I ask it a question and it gives me an answer, it's, it's. damn close to what my answer would be. It's really close to what I would say on that matter. Hunter (08:55) Yeah, it's encouraging to hear that. And I've heard that from you and from Mike as well, and then also from customers that have been using it over the past, so whatever month and change or so it's been more publicly available that they are really happy with the output. And it's a great way for us to take advantage of all of this material that we've built up over all of these years that otherwise some of it probably would be. something from 10 years ago, still really relevant in a lot of cases, but maybe gathering justice. Cause it's not, you know, the top blog posts on the website or something. So some of this knowledge, it's a little bit more varied. We can resurface it with a tool like this. Brian (09:33) Now, this was something that we initially just had in the Agile mentors community, right? Hunter (09:39) That's how it started. And that was for a few reasons, mostly because, well, a couple of important reasons. One is that with these types of LLM things, there are costs associated with it in the sense that it does cost us per question effectively. And just we wanted to make sure that we understood what those costs were before that we just let it loose on the wider internet. So that was part of it. But also to get a sense of how people would react to it in those early weeks and months got a lot of feedback. feedback on the responses just to get a general sense of did people think that this was a good answer or not so good and use that to calibrate it because you know frankly if it underperformed where we wanted it to be that would be a good signal that we needed to do some more work on it or give it some more time to bake. Brian (10:26) Yeah. Yeah. And now we kind of have opened that up, and it's available to anyone. You can go to Mount Goat Software and look in our menus. And there in our tools, it's under Tools, right? Hunter (10:41) Yeah, so you can get to it from the Mountain Goat site. You can either go to it is in the navigation, I think right next to the podcast for those of you that are familiar with where to find that on the website. I think it's right next to it, at least for now. No matter what you can go to mountaingoatsoftware .com slash goat bot and that will take you to the right place. That's G -O -A -T -B -O -T. And it is free right now. So we've couched that with at least for a limited time. We are again, sort of experimenting with the model and where it's going to go. But you can sign up for an account today and use it for free and get put it through its paces. And we're pretty happy with what we've got so far. So please do do that. And hopefully it's useful and give us feedback if you find something that you think could be improved or or let us know if you worked out for you to like to hear those as well. Brian (11:29) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And yeah, we kind of buried our lead here just to say that, yeah, it is free, right? We're not selling you on something. We don't have a package of things that we're not. Yes, we did originally have it in our Agile mentors community. But like Hunter said, there was a lot of reasons for that. We wanted to be safe with it. We wanted to have a smaller audience, see what kind of responses we got. Hunter (11:38) Right. Yes. Yeah. Brian (11:58) We'd hate to put something out there in the world and then have people say, you know what kind of crazy stuff this thing told me to do? So yeah, kind of a safer audience there to start with. But yeah, it's available to anyone for free. You can just go to our site and use it. And as Hunter said, yeah, please give us feedback. If there's anything that you want to just let us know that it was useful to you in any way, or maybe you used it for something unusual, we wouldn't have anticipated. Hunter (12:04) Right. Right. Hahaha. Brian (12:27) Yeah, let us know. We're trying to tweak it and make it as useful as we possibly can. What surprised you most in this work of putting this together? Did it go just as you expected or did it throw you for some loops along the way? Hunter (12:42) There were definitely some loops. I mean, I sort of alluded to the fact before that it's a little bit different of a mentality in terms of how you get it to do what you want. GoPod is actually a few technologies glued together. There's the content itself. So as you might imagine, we've got... all of this various content, whether it's transcripts from training courses and videos or blog posts that Mike has written or weekly tips, books, all kinds of stuff. So there's a ton of different content. It's all in these different places. So, you know, step one was creating a sort of pipeline that could take all of this content that's all in these different places and clean it up a little bit so that it didn't have, say, you know, editors notes in it and other things like that that don't make any sense. and then put that content into a vector database. So I'm sure that many listeners are familiar with more traditional relational databases. Vector databases are not new, but they have become a lot more popular with the rise of the LLM stuff. And basically a vector database will chunk up the various content and lets you query to figure out how content that is close to the query that you asked in a mathematical vector space. And so we use that when you... pose a query to go, but it will go and find relevant pieces of information related to your query that the LLM in this case we use GPT -4 as the model underneath our underneath go pot can take the content that was retrieved these sort of chunks of content that by themselves don't read very well, wouldn't be a very good answer. And it can use that to reformat it, to summarize, to put stuff together into a way that makes sense. Putting those pieces together was something that was new to me. I can't remember the last time I had used a vector database for anything. And the LLM bit was new for me as well. But despite the fact that it was new to me technologies, at least in those cases, the pieces of it coming together actually was simpler than I imagined for how well it worked even in its first incarnation. It kind of came together more quickly, the basic core of it came together more quickly than I thought that it would. There was then a lot of refining, especially around the prompting and the messaging stuff. But... These technologies, especially if you are a programmer, even if you don't have any background in machine learning or AI stuff, I think it's accessible and, in my opinion at least, fun to play with because it is kind of like a whole new world there. So I guess I'd say for those that are interested and maybe are worried that I don't know anything about these technologies, I would go check them out because I think you'll find that they're more accessible than you may think. Brian (15:39) Yeah, and they're getting better. I mean, the pace of their improvement is just so rapid. You know, you tried something, you know, two weeks ago, and then two weeks later, it's just a completely different experience because it's just incrementally, you know, nonstop getting better all the time. Gosh, I'm... Hunter (15:45) Yep. The models, I'm sorry to interrupt you, Brian, but yeah, I mean, I agree 100%. The models that we've been using have gotten faster and cheaper, I think two or three times in big step change moments since we started the project. I mean, that is a technology that's moving quickly. Brian (16:13) Yeah, yeah. No, I was just going to make a joke about the fact that I think we've quoted about two or three songs there, and I just did another one with getting better all the time. Yeah, so this is a fascinating topic, Gary, obviously, for a lot of people. And what I'm kind of curious here, because we're maybe about halfway through our time, and I'm just kind of curious if we shift gears a little bit. from talking about GoPot to talking about AI in general, because you've done a lot of work in this area, and you're obviously in technology, and you're an aficionado, a technologist. What have you seen most recently in this area? Where do you think this is headed? What kind of trends have you noticed recently? Hunter (17:01) Well, I mean, it's obviously an area of great interest for the development community. It also, it seems like in the last year, every product that we use as tools or whatever, they are talking about the AI features that they're adding. Um, and at least in my experience, you know, some of those are really interesting, you know, like we use zoom often for internal meetings and, you know, it has a feature now that can automatically summarize a meeting and you can ask it, you know, what were the follow -up items and stuff like that. That's great. There's also maybe a little bit of sort of round peg square hole with some of this. Like, I don't know if every tool in the world needs an AI feature, and there are definitely some where I seems a little bit useless. Um, Brian (17:40) Yeah. Hunter (17:48) I guess that's to be expected with something like this that's got so much interest. The things that I'm excited about, and it feels like it's still very much early days, but you can see the contours are what many people would refer to as agents. So basically, AI tools that are going to go out and do things on your behalf. So not just write me a blog post or summarize this email, but... You know, and the example that's often used in some of these demos is like book me a vacation. I personally, I want to pick the seat I'm sitting in. So I don't know if I'm going to do that, but, um, you know, when the, when the tools can get good enough to go out and do things for you. Right. So I don't know example of this podcast recording, uh, we, you sent me a link to the calendar tool. I found a time that was open, but in theory that could be completely automated away, right? My agent could talk to your agent and it could just find the time. And that would, we would just both be told like, Oh, you guys are recording. Brian (18:21) Yeah, me too. Hunter (18:44) You know, at X time, that sort of thing, right? And then going several steps beyond that. I think that's really interesting. People are starting to build those. The models need to get, I think, a good bit better before, you know, that really works well. But I can't wait to see where that goes in particular. I think that's gonna be a lot of fun. Brian (19:05) Yeah, I agree. I mean, like Zoom is a great example because we were even having conversations about this recently, just that there's a lot of criticism about how good and the quality of those summaries that take place after a meeting. But previously, when we encounter a technology tool like that, you'd see the product and you'd say, oh, it's either useful or it's not useful. Hunter (19:18) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Brian (19:34) And it's kind of a binary one or zero. If it wasn't useful, then it really was about how that company implemented that feature. And they weren't going to do a massive overhaul of how it was implemented. It kind of is what it is. So we're kind of conditioned, I think, to have this response. Or at least if you're of a certain age, you're kind of conditioned to have this response of, hey, if it didn't work, it probably is not going to work. I can move on and find something else. But. Hunter (19:43) Right. Right. Brian (20:03) The pace of how this gets better is such that you try the Zoom tool, you look at the response and think, oh, that wasn't very useful. But you do it again in two weeks later. And all of a sudden, it's everything that you wanted it to be in the first pass. Because people have been saying, hey, this doesn't work, and I wish it was this way, and then the tool can update and modify. And it's crazy to think about, we have to get our heads wrapped around the pace of improvement is now vastly different. Hunter (20:13) Mm -hmm. It's it is definitely that's a very good point and it is different and you know, I know that there are some folks that you know, you take exception at calling these things AIs because they're not actually smart, right? How do how they work? They're not. They're not intelligent. But they are pretty impressive and they do unlock a whole lot of interesting new categories of stuff. And maybe you could have done some of these tasks before in other ways procedurally, but these can make some of those problems a lot easier to solve because of how they work. Now, I mean, I don't think I'd want ChatGPT to do my taxes, but... Brian (21:12) Yeah. Hunter (21:14) But it does have a lot of really interesting use cases. And you are absolutely right that these models are improving so quickly. And it is kind of like that little brain in there. And they can upgrade it with the latest version. And all of a sudden, it's just a little bit smarter. And again, I know some people take Umbridge as smart and intelligent. But I think you know what I mean. Brian (21:34) Yeah, no, and the funny thing there about, I mean, your example about doing your taxes is, you know, I laughed about that and thought, oh yeah, I'm kind of with you. I wouldn't want to have an AI do my taxes, but that's our opinion. There's probably others that would say, no, I'm fine with it doing it. If it's been trained and it's, you know, been programmed to do it a certain way, then yeah, that's fine. And I, you know, I'm aware of services that will do that with legal documents now that will create entire contracts and... wills and all sorts of stuff from a legal perspective. And that kind of leap, maybe that's the line for me. I look at that and say, oh, I could see that. Because it's a kind of a limited knowledge base. But taxes are kind of the same thing. They're, yeah. Hunter (22:18) I think it's doable. Yeah. I, I, I'm still at the stage with something like that where I'm in the trust, but verify mode. Like I, you know, it's, I would want to check it over and make sure it was correct, but I can easily see, you know, a little bit further down the road where a defined problem set like that, you can pretty much guarantee that it's going to, you know, give you a valid answer. Brian (22:24) Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I do want to dip our toe just a little bit in this other area too, because I know there's probably people wondering about this. You're in technology. You're at the levels where you're doing coding work. And I'm sure that you have made use or tried to make use of some of the tools that are out there now that assist and help with coding. What's your opinion of the current state of that art? Hunter (22:56) Mm. Yeah, no, great question. And I do use those tools. I'll use ChatGPT sometimes to work through a problem, or GitHub Copilot is the other tool that I use often. It's integrated into some of my other tools. I have found it useful in a bunch of different ways. I can find it useful to either... Help me write code that I 100 % could have written myself, no problem, but it would have just taken a little bit longer because I would have to go look something up and then remember some function name that I had forgotten. So like a script to reformat a CSV file or something like that, right? Not complicated, not breaking any new ground, something that I'm gonna use once and throw away. It's really good at that sort of thing and just creating something for me that I, you know, again, could have done myself easily, but it'll save me 10 minutes and I'll take it. I've also used it to help me understand a little bit. Maybe there's code in a language that I don't use very often or a framework I don't use. It's kind of like, what is happening here exactly? And having it try to explain it to me and walk through certain things. And that's also been useful for me, kind of just like I would talk to a colleague that might know a different area of a system better than I do, have a little bit of a back and forth. And that's been useful. I do not. do and at least right now would not feel comfortable with is like, I guess the equivalent of like copy and pasting code from Stack Overflow, right? So just taking huge chunks of code where I have no idea how it works or what it does and saying, it seems to give me the right answer, so I'm just gonna use it. That I wouldn't feel comfortable with in any context, whether it was AI generated or something that I found on a website someplace. So. I kind of treat it like, and others have said this too, but maybe like a pair program situation or like a junior programmer that might not have all of the experience, but is definitely very competent and can help with things. And I do find it saves me time. So I'm glad that it's there. Brian (25:10) Yeah, you know, it's funny because when you said that I wouldn't copy and paste, you know, things over, I kind of feel that same way. I'm not doing code, but I just didn't, you know, anything I would write or anything I would, uh, you know, kind of come up with in that way. Um, my, my kind of opinion is it hasn't really helped me as much with brainstorming type activities. I don't find it to be as, as creative. Hunter (25:38) Mm -hmm. Brian (25:38) To give me different ideas. But I do really, really enjoy how I can take a rough draft of something and then put it in and say, help me tweak this or help me make this better. It seems like it does a really good job with something like that. Hunter (25:42) Right. Yep, I'd spend my general experience as well. And it's, you know, I, I will take any tool assistance I can find here and there. And I do think even if I, even if it's not perfect, it's still an improvement and I can get some, maybe it'll make a suggestion for something I wouldn't have thought of or looking at it a slightly different way, which I find useful. So I'm happy to have it. Brian (26:19) Have you utilized it in any ways to test any of the code that you work on? Hunter (26:24) Oh. Yeah, that's a great question. For many programmers, writing tests can be kind of drudgery. And actually, I do find that it can be pretty good at writing certain kinds of tests for you. And actually, it's interesting if it struggles to write a test for something, it may be a sign that what you're trying to test needs to be refactored because it may not be, if it's not understandable enough or it's too Brian (26:50) Ha. Hunter (26:55) Big of chunks or whatever, that can also be an interesting indicator that maybe you need to go back and tweak that as well. But yes, I mean, I don't always enjoy writing automated tests, but they are very important. And so it is nice to have any kind of labor saving in that department. It's another area where I welcome. Brian (27:17) Yeah, you threw out the term refactor as well. I'm kind of curious there. If it does a good job of reformatting a couple of paragraphs, how good a job does it do with refactoring code? Hunter (27:28) It depends, like a lot of these things, but I definitely have thrown stuff in and said, hey, rewrite this function, tell me how you would do it. And there have been times where it will say, oh, well, you could, this is maybe a little verbose, you could compact this down, you could write this like this. In some cases, I originally wrote it in a certain way on purpose, because sometimes it'll generate code that is correct, but kind of hard to read. And there's a tension there between. something that's that future you will be able to read and understand versus the most compact terse code possible, right? So I don't always take its suggestions, but it can be good. Also it's good at finding, you know, silly programmer bugs off by one errors and those sorts of things that are really common. that we, the kinds of mistakes that we all make. Um, and so, yeah, another area where I'm happy to, to get a helping hand and just save me from banging my head into the wall, trying to figure out why this thing should work. And it turns out I just put a stomach hole in the wrong place. You know, something like that. Brian (28:25) Yeah, I'm always kind of careful with how I phrase this, but I know there's a lot of panic and there's a lot of concern about these things being able to replace the human element. And so I always try to preface this by saying, right now, the way the thing is right now. And the kind of examples we both gave, I think, are good examples to show that right now, it can't really do that. It can't really just completely wholesale. Hunter (28:35) Yeah. Yeah. Brian (28:53) Replace the human element in it. But I think that our examples are good examples of how it can be a beneficial tool to help create these things. Hunter (29:05) I definitely see it as a productivity enhancer. I don't think, at least none of the models that I've seen, none of the chat bots that I've seen, I have seen a couple of products that claim they're sort of an AI developer in a box. I have not seen any that are very good. I mean, I saw a chat GPT demo of a guy that drew a picture of an iPhone app on the piece of paper and it... Brian (29:23) Yeah. Hunter (29:32) Gave it the code for a working app, but OK, great, now I want to add another feature. And like, oh, well, you can't really, because it's a piece. So some of those demos are impressive for sure. But in terms of the kinds of things that working software developers are doing every day, I have not seen anything that could replace the people that I work with on my various teams. Brian (29:40) Ha ha ha. Yeah, I mean, who knows where it'll be a year from now or two years from now. But yeah, I think we can only kind of deal with the state of it today. And that's sort of the state of it today. Well, Hunter, I really appreciate you coming on. This has been a fascinating topic. Again, for those who want to check it out, the whole reason we wanted to have this is just to make sure people were aware of this Goatbot tool. And hey, if you want to give someone some thanks for it, this is your guy. Hunter (29:57) Right. Yep. Hahaha. Brian (30:25) You can, if you want to send something to hello at mountegoatsoftware .com, that's our general kind of email address for anything from Mountain Goat. So send something to hello at mountegoatsoftware .com and tell us what you think of it. Let us know what you think. And if you have suggestions, let us know, right? Hunter (30:42) We're very excited to hear your feedback. I appreciate the kind words, Brian. I will say GoPot would be nothing without all of the content that you guys write for. So I can't take all of that credit, but it is fun to kind of pull all these things together in a way that people seem to enjoy. Brian (30:50) Ha ha ha. Awesome. Well, thank you again for coming on. Hunter. Hunter (30:59) Thank you.

Join Brian and Agile coaching expert Vinnie Gills as they tackle the complexities of being an Agile coach and working with and among teams. Discover key strategies for overcoming conflicts and enhancing teamwork within the coaching community. Overview In this insightful episode, Brian and Vinnie Gill dive deep into the often overlooked challenges that arise in Agile coaching. They discuss the common pain points and conflicts that can disrupt professional relationships and share effective strategies for creating a more cohesive and supportive coaching environment. Listeners will gain valuable insights into recognizing and leveraging personal and collective strengths and weaknesses, ensuring that Agile coaches not only preach transformative practices but also embody them in their interactions. Tune in to learn how to foster strong, productive relationships within your Agile coaching community. Listen Now to Discover: [1:10] - Brian welcomes business agility coach and speaker Vinnie Gill. [8:07] - Vinnie unpacks the reasons behind the high number of reports about challenging Agilists, highlighting the traits that contribute to their tough demeanor. [10:12] - Vinnie emphasizes the critical importance of 'starting with why' to forge stronger and more effective working relationships. [13:58] - Vinnie talks about the importance of coaches applying their own methods to themselves, sharing a real-life example of this practice in action. [17:14] - Brian invites listeners to deepen their coaching skills by joining him or Lance Dacy in an Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®.  [18:49] - Vinnie explains the counterproductive coaching anti-archetypes she has encountered, shedding light on common pitfalls to avoid in coaching roles. [20:03] - Brian describes how Mountain Goat Software approaches empathy as a team of individuals. [22:15] - Discover how Vinnie takes empathy further by recommending the addition of compassion to enhance team interactions and support. [23:43] - Explore with Brian the critical role of deliberately designing a team's social contract to enhance collaboration and team dynamics. [27:00] - Vinnie delves into how understanding and leveraging both our strengths and weaknesses can lead to greater personal and professional growth. [27:31] - Vinnie underscores the critical need for mental health and self-care among agile coaches to safeguard against burnout and maintain peak performance. [31:28] - Brian shares a big thank you to Vinnie for joining him on the show. [32:00] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. [32:20] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email.  References and resources mentioned in the show: Vinnie Gill Vinnie’s Agile 2023 Speech #54 Unlocking Agile’s Power in the World of Data Science with Lance Dacy #89: Transformational One-on-Ones with Avipaul Bhandari Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Vinnie Gill is an experienced agile coach with a diverse background that spans continents and industries—from mining and finance to education and the public sector. With over 20 years in project and business management roles and a commitment to transformative education and agile practices, she excels at leading organizational change and fostering growth at the enterprise level.

Join Brian as he and Arlen Bankston unveil the secrets of Liquid Agility in this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. Dive into how this innovative framework revolutionizes product management and fills the gaps in traditional Agile methodologies Overview In this episode Brian and Arlen Bankston delve into the intricacies of Liquid Agility, a comprehensive framework designed to enhance agile practices with its unique focus on prioritization, preparation, and outcome evaluation. Arlen walks us through the JUICE framework, which categorizes work into distinct streams—innovation, iteration, and operation—and discusses strategies for refining projects and maximizing the impact of released features. Whether you're a product owner, Scrum practitioner, or Agile enthusiast, this episode offers valuable insights into making agile methodologies more effective and adaptable to your needs. Tune in to transform your approach to product management and Agile practices with cutting-edge insights from Liquid Agility. Listen Now to Discover: [1:15] - Brian welcomes Scrum veteran, Certified Scrum Trainer®, partner at Grow-Lean LLC, author of HR and the Agile Organization, and creator of Liquid Agility. [2:53] - Explore the concept of Liquid Agility with Arlen as he reveals how it enriches traditional Agile practices, adding layers of depth and adaptability to methodologies [4:59] - Arlen discusses how Liquid Agility transforms prioritization, making it simpler to categorize tasks and put user needs first for more effective project management. [7:45] - Brian sheds light on the elegant simplicity and balance that Liquid Agility brings to the table, streamlining processes without sacrificing depth. [10:05] - Arlen delves into the nuances of his prioritization framework, giving a detailed walkthrough of the JUICE framework and its strategic benefits. [14:30] - Deepen your understanding and work hands-on to practice and understand the craft of being a great product owner by taking a Certified Scrum Product Owner® (CSPO) or Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® with Mountain Goat Software. Plus, you’ll be automatically enrolled in Mike Cohn’s Agile Mentors Community, including twelve months of ongoing coaching and support. Find a complete list of our upcoming classes on the Mountain Goat Software's Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule. [24:55] - Arlen outlines effective strategies for teams to evaluate and select the tools that best align with their specific needs and goals. [27:59] - Arlen explains the essentials of readiness within the dynamic Liquid Agility framework, highlighting what true preparedness looks like in an Agile context. [31:30] - Brian shares a big thank you to Arlen for joining him on the show. [33:39] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes. You can find the schedule here. [34:12] - If you liked the episode, share with any product owner you think might benefit from the discussion today, too! [34:30] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Send us an email. [34:46] - Catch Brian live and in person, and hear him speak at the upcoming 2024 Global Scrum Gathering in New Orleans and the Agile 2024 Conference in Dallas. References and resources mentioned in the show: Arlen Bankston Grow-Lean, LLC HR and the Agile Organization by Arlen Bankston Liquid Agility #3: What Makes a Great Product Owner? With Lance Dacy #14: What does it mean to be Product-Centric? With Scott Dunn #50: Exploring the Roles of Scrum Master and Product Owner with Lance Dacy Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Mountain Goat Software Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast 2024 Global Scrum Gathering Agile2024 Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Arlen Bankston is one of the very first Certified Scrum Trainers®, a Scrum veteran, partner at Grow-Lean LLC, author of HR and the Agile Organization, and creator of Liquid Agility. Known for his thought leadership and dynamic, entertaining, and practical training style, Arlen has trained and mentored thousands of ScrumMasters, Product Owners, team members and executives.

Join Brian and Sumeet Moghe as they discuss transforming the focus and efficiency of Agile teams in our always-on world. Discover how to master asynchronous work to enhance decision-making and improve team dynamics. Overview On this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian welcomes Sumeet Moghe, author of the Async First Playbook, in this enlightening episode as he explores the pivotal role of asynchronous work within Agile frameworks. Sumeet shares his insights on fostering deep focus, enhancing decision-making, and pragmatically adapting Agile practices to meet unique team needs. Delve into the challenges and strategies for securing team buy-in, balancing synchronous with asynchronous tasks, and building cohesion in distributed teams. This episode is packed with actionable advice on creating a supportive, safe, and productive environment through intentional communication and strategic face-to-face interactions. Tune in to reshape your team's approach to collaboration and productivity in the asynchronous era. Listen Now to Discover: [1:15] - Brian welcomes Sumeet Moghe, Transformation Specialist and Product Manager at Thoughtworks and author of The Asynch-First Playbook. [2:18] - Dive into Sumeet's captivating journey to mastering asynchronous work, exploring how his deep-seated passion sparked innovative approaches in his professional life. [5:11] - Brian expertly connects Agile principles to the unique challenges of asynchronous work, offering insightful solutions for today’s distributed work environments. [7:32] - Sumeet unveils critical insights from his extensive experience in asynchronous work, offering valuable lessons for mastering remote collaboration. [10:57] - Highlighting the challenges that conventional Agile practitioners encounter in asynchronous environments, Brian turns to Sumeet for practical solutions to address these issues constructively. [16:26] - Are you ready to take your Asynchronous work to the next level? Consider taking Mountain Goat Software’s Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® (ACSM) class to dive deeper into facilitating and thriving with an asynchronous team. To learn more, check out the Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule. [19:28] - Sumeet outlines effective strategies for conducting Sprint Planning sessions with asynchronous teams, ensuring smooth collaboration and productivity across different time zones. [24:32] - Sumeet addresses team building on asynchronous teams, highlighting and walking through the asynchronous application of the work of Amy Edmonson and Google’s Project Aristotle, developing psychological safety. [32:52] - To foster deeper trust and reduce conflicts, Sumeet advises using the cost savings from asynchronous work to facilitate in-person team interactions. [35:20] - Brian shares a big thank you to Sumeet for joining him on the show and bringing his unique experience to the conversation. [36:10] - If you enjoyed this topic, we invite you to share the episode with a friend or on social media. And don’t forget to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on your podcast platform of choice. [37:19] - Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Send us an email. [36:10] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software. References and resources mentioned in the show: Sumeet Moghe The Asynch-First Playbook by Sumeet Moghe Thoughtworks Sumeet's Photography The Fearless Organization by Amy Edmondson Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® (ACSM) Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Mountain Goat Software Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Sumeet Gayathri Moghe is a product manager, and design nerd at Thoughtworks, and author of The Asynch-First Playbook. Sumeet has worked on building software products and improving teams’ engineering effectiveness over diverse environments, building an approach that is versatile and can be effectively adapted across various industries to meet diverse needs. When he’s not at work building software, you’ll find him discovering the world through a camera’s eyepiece, photographing wildlife and wilderness.

Join Brian as he explores the Change Initiative Canvas with Dr. Steve Martin, a groundbreaking tool designed to streamline and succeed in organizational change efforts. Learn how to tackle change with clarity and strategic foresight. Overview In this insightful episode, Brian Milner and Dr. Steve Martin dive deep into the mechanics of the Change Initiative Canvas, a strategic framework developed to guide organizations through successful transformations. They discuss critical aspects such as setting clear objectives, measuring impact, handling objections, and the importance of cultural alignment within the organization. Whether you're initiating small adjustments or major shifts, this discussion provides the essential tools and tactics to navigate change effectively and achieve meaningful, sustainable results. Listen Now to Discover: [1:10] - Brian welcomes Dr. Steve Martin, PhD, Certified Scrum Trainer®, CEO of Agility Guides, and professor at Franklin University and creator of the Change Initiative Canvas. [2:38] - Steve unveils the intriguing origins of the Change Initiative Canvas, sharing the inspiration and journey behind its creation. [4:38] - Steve breaks down the concept of failure, offering insightful strategies on how to interpret and learn from setbacks. [7:00] - Steve delves into the essentials of recognizing when change is necessary by questioning the underlying reasons and observing the problem's impact. [11:29] - Brian emphasizes how understanding the customer's immediate need for change is vital for navigating towards the right solutions. [14:34] - Steve explains the delicate balance between thoroughly understanding a problem and avoiding the trap of analysis paralysis. [15:24] - Explore your Agile potential with the custom Elements of Agile assessment, crafted by Mike and Brian to help you gauge your team’s current agility and identify opportunities for growth. [17:17] - Steve emphasizes the significance of clearly outlining what success entails to align efforts and expectations across the board. [20:29] - Explore effective strategies for navigating resistance and overcoming constraints during a change initiative, ensuring smoother transitions and successful outcomes. [26:48] - Steve highlights the critical need to understand an organization's culture and outlines methods for accurately assessing it to ensure alignment with strategic initiatives. [30:46] - Steve encourages listeners to connect with him on LinkedIn and explore the practical tools and resources available on the Agility Guides Resources page, designed to enhance real-world Agile practices. [31:56] - Brian expresses his heartfelt gratitude to Steve for sharing his insights on the show, enriching the conversation with his expertise. [32:34] - Continue the conversation and deepen your Agile knowledge by joining the Agile Mentors Community. Enjoy a complimentary year-long membership by enrolling in any Mountain Goat Software, such as the Certified ScrumMaster (CSM) or Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO). [33:24] - Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast and spread the word to anyone who might appreciate our discussions. Have feedback or an idea for a future episode? We'd love to hear from you—drop us an email! References and resources mentioned in the show: Steve Martin Agility Guides Change Initiative Canvas Agility Guides Resources Elements of Agile Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Dr. Steve Martin is driven by a passion to help leaders excel, by leveraging extensive experience in orchestrating large-scale transformations and academic insights to empower leaders at all levels to navigate today’s volatile business landscape. From failed beginnings to leading successful agile transformations and teaching leadership principles, he guides executives and managers to lead with authenticity, humility, and a coaching mindset, ensuring both organizational success and personal fulfillment.

Join Brian and Anthony Coppedge as they unlock the secrets to bridging the team-leadership divide. Learn how to navigate through fear, short-term thinking, and the transformative power of Agile within top-tier organizations like IBM. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian sits down for a groundbreaking conversation with Anthony Coppedge, of IBM and creator of the Retrospective Radar. They delve deep into the disconnects plaguing organizations between their teams and leadership. From overcoming fear and fostering long-term value to harnessing the strength of middle management and the critical role of data-driven decision-making, this episode offers a treasure trove of insights for those looking to drive agility and foster a culture of transparency and success in their organizations. Join us to explore how translating team realities into leadership vision can catalyze meaningful change and position companies for enduring success. Listen Now to Discover: [1:18] - Brian welcomes Anthony Coppedge, IBM's business agility expert. [2:40] - Unveiling the core issue, Anthony explores how fear fuels the disconnect between teams and their leaders, offering insights into bridging this crucial gap. [4:04] - Anthony highlights the power for the team in delivering real value for the benefit of others. [5:14] - Hear Anthony unpack the significance of scalability in systems and processes, highlighting its role in enabling organizations to adapt and thrive, and what the conversations with the teams can look like to achieve scalability. [6:00] - Anthony lays out vivid examples of the existing gap between teams and leadership, offering insightful strategies needed to effectively bridge this divide. [7:50] - Highlighting the pivotal role of middle management, Anthony suggests leveraging these key players as connectors between teams and top leadership. [8:50] - Anthony shows how to effectively convey the ground-level realities of teams to leadership, ensuring their efforts are directly linked to the organization's overarching direction. [10:30] - Brian emphasizes the critical need to grasp what drives leaders, advocating for the translation of team insights into a language that resonates with leadership priorities. [13:59] - Anthony explores how adopting a client-centric approach fosters transparency in communication, ensuring clarity and alignment across all levels. [16:31] - Bridge the gap between your leadership and teams by helping the leaders to expand their Agile language and experience with Mountain Goat Software’s Agile For Leaders Course. [18:34] - Anthony proposes actionable strategies and the importance of teams spearheading cultural shifts within their organizations, steering them towards embracing Agile principles. [21:43] - Highlighting the strategic use of data, Anthony discusses how it can illuminate results and motivate shifts towards better practices. [29:14] - Brian unveils Anthony's innovative approach to reflection and growth with 'The Retrospective Radar.' [36:11] - Brian shares a big thank you to Anthony for joining him on the show and invites listeners to connect with him on LinkedIn. [37:27] - We invite you to share the podcast with friends and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. [38:06] - If you’d like to continue this discussion on the episode specific discussion forums on the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software. [38:48] - Brian invites listeners to join him live and in person at the 2024 Global Scrum Gathering in New Orleans and the Agile2024 conference in Dallas. References and resources mentioned in the show: Anthony Coppedge Retrospective Radar Retrospective Radar Template Creative Commons usage rights for the Retrospective Radar Agile For Leaders Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast 2024 Global Scrum Gathering Agile2024 Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Anthony Coppedge is the Principal Agile Digital Sales Global Transformation Lead at IBM and creator of the Retrospective Radar. Anthony has reshaped enterprises from startups to Fortune 500 giants like IBM, pioneering enterprise Agile Sales and driving customer-centric outcomes worldwide.

Explore the skills revolution with Brian and Evan Leybourn of the Business Agility Institute as they dive into a landmark study on the skills shaping today's workforce. Learn why adaptability, human skills, and agile acumen are the keys to success. Overview In an enlightening episode, Brian sits down with Evan Leybourn, co-founder of the Business Agility Institute, to delve into recent research findings on the essential skills for the modern workforce. They discuss the paramount importance of human skills over technical abilities in hiring, the emergence of 'pie-shaped' professionals who excel in multiple domains, and the critical role of agile acumen across various job roles. Additionally, they address the pressing need for educational systems to pivot from traditional role-based learning to a more versatile skill-based approach. This episode is a treasure trove for anyone looking to navigate the workforce's future, offering deep insights into adapting and thriving in an ever-evolving professional landscape. Listen Now to Discover: [1:17] - Join Brian in a captivating session with Evan Leybourn, the innovative author and co-founder of the Business Agility Institute, as they explore groundbreaking insights into agility and workforce evolution. [2:32] - Discover the unexpected findings from Evan's recent study, ‘Skills in the New World of Work,’ on the workforce's most sought-after skills and their pivotal role in modern hiring practices. [4:50] - Brian sheds light on the rising value of soft, or human, skills in the workforce, suggesting a pivotal expansion of Scrum Master skills to embrace these vital attributes. [8:00] - Evan reveals their unexpected discovery: organizations are increasingly seeking 'pie-shaped' skills that blend diverse areas of expertise. [12:45] - Perfect your human skills and refresh your Agile approach with Mountain Goat Software’s Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® courses. For further details, visit the Mountain Goat Software training schedule. [15:05] - Unpacking the idea of 'pie-shaped' professionals, Evan details how these unique individuals bring multiple skill sets to one role, elevating their effectiveness and output, using a full-stack developer as an example. [16:22] - Evan tackles the provocative statement that Agile is dead, offering insights and counterarguments to this bold claim. [21:47] - Evan highlights a key finding: Agile Acumen emerges as the runner-up in the most coveted skills during the hiring process across organizations. [24:50] - Evan stresses an important takeaway: 'The skills you have are valuable,' pointing out that the essence of Agile expertise transcends the exact wording of job descriptions. [27:05] - Highlighting a necessary evolution in learning, Evan advocates for a move towards skill-based training and education, away from traditional role-focused models, to better prepare for the workforce of tomorrow. [29:21] - Brian shares his gratitude for Evan and his work to help better understand the job market. [30:02] - Brian invites listeners to join both him and Evan live and in person at the Global Scrum Gathering 2024 in New Orleans. [30:33] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. [31:03] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. References and resources mentioned in the show: Evan Leybourn Skills in the New World of Work: Which Agile Skills are Most In-Demand in Today's Workforce? Business Agility Institute Directing The Agile Organization: A Lean Approach To Business Management by Evan Leybourn #noprojects: A Culture of Continuous Value by Evan Leybourn Global Scrum Gathering 2024 Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Evan Leybourn is the co-founder of the Business Agility Institute and author of "Directing the Agile Organization" and "#noprojects; a culture of continuous value." Evan champions the advancement of agile, innovative, and dynamic companies poised to succeed in fluctuating markets through rigorous research and advocacy.

Join Brian and Stefan Wolpers as they explore the labyrinth of Scrum anti-patterns, shedding light on the crucial shifts needed in communication, event understanding, and organizational empowerment for Agile success. Overview Brian welcomes special guest Stefan Wolpers as they explore the maze of Scrum anti-patterns. Discover the art of tackling communication breakdowns, unravel the misunderstandings that plague Scrum events, confront the systemic issues of organizational anti-patterns, and challenge the rigidity of dogmatism in Agile practices. Whether you're a seasoned Scrum practitioner or new to the Agile philosophy, this conversation between Brian and Stefan will arm you with the insights needed to navigate the complexities of Scrum, enhance team collaboration, and drive successful Agile transformations. Tune in to transform your understanding and practice of Scrum, and take a step towards mastering the dynamic world of Agile. Listen Now to Discover: [1:06] - ​​Join Brian as he sits down with Stefan Wolpers, a seasoned Professional Scrum Trainer and the mastermind behind ‘The Scrum Anti-Patterns Guide,’ for a deep dive into the pitfalls to avoid for Scrum success. [2:33] - Discover the power of inversion with Stefan, as he elucidates this groundbreaking learning principle, challenging traditional methods and revolutionizing our approach to personal and professional development. [5:21] - Stefan delves into the critical issue of communication breakdown and assumptions among teams, revealing effective strategies to address and navigate these common pain points. [10:01] - Listen as Stefan highlights the transformative impact of trust building and team bonding, revealing their significance as key elements in bridging cultural differences and bringing remote teams closer together. [12:02] - Brought to you by Mountain Goat Software, the Agile Mentors Podcast invites you to enhance your Scrum skills through the Certified Scrum Product Owner® course. Explore a world of Agile learning opportunities by checking out Mountain Goat Software's extensive training schedule. [13:03] - Join Stefan as he delves into the Scrum framework, highlighting the Daily Scrum and Sprint Planning as events ripe with anti-patterns, and providing guidance on overcoming these obstacles for smoother sprints. [18:10] - Listen as Stefan illuminates the critical anti-pattern of lacking empowerment within organizations, emphasizing its widespread impact and proposing pathways to cultivate a more empowered workforce. [22:08] - Explore with Brian the significance of an anti-dogmatic stance, highlighting its role as a pivotal anti-pattern in fostering innovation and adaptability in Agile environments. [26:14] - Brian shares a big thank you to Stefan for joining him on the show. [29:01] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. [30:01] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback, a question, or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. References and resources mentioned in the show: Stefan Wolpers The Scrum Anti-Patterns Guide by Stefan Wolpers Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Mike Cohn’s Letting Go of Knowing Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.  Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Stefan Wolpers is the author behind "The Scrum Anti-Pattern Guide" and a celebrated Professional Scrum Trainer known for his unparalleled expertise in Agile methodologies. Stefan has dedicated his career to empowering professionals around the globe.

Dive into an enlightening conversation with Brian Milner and HR innovator Pia Maria Thorén on the transformative power of Agile in HR and leadership. Discover a people-centric approach that champions attitude, growth, and empathy. Overview Join Brian Milner in this compelling episode as he sits down with Agile and HR expert Pia Maria Thorén, who shares her insights on revolutionizing Human Resources and leadership with Agile project management principles. Pia Maria delves into the critical shift from traditional hiring practices to prioritizing attitude and potential, fostering a nurturing candidate experience, and the vital role of team involvement in the hiring process. Through her advocacy for empathy and a people-centric approach, Pia Maria outlines how understanding and support can transform handling performance challenges and layoffs into opportunities for growth. Tune in to explore how these strategies not only enhance HR practices but also pave the way for more dynamic, resilient organizations. Listen Now to Discover: [01:13] - Dive into an enlightening conversation with Pia-Maria Thorén, the visionary author behind 'Agile People' and a leading expert in Agile human resources. [02:30] - Join Pia-Maria as she unfolds the compelling narrative of Agile's breakthrough into HR practices, crafting a more effective and adaptive approach to leadership and human resources management. [07:46] - Hear from Pia-Maria as she unveils the secrets behind Agile's innovative recruitment and hiring strategies, focused on creating an environment where candidates are eager to work and flourish. [09:44] - Brian explores the catalyst behind Agile hiring practices, pondering how organizations kick-start the recruitment process when their sights are set not on vacancies but on attracting the perfect fit. [10:55] - Shifting the focus from traditional job slots to dynamic team contributions, Pia-Maria introduces the transformative concept of 't-shaped' teams in recruitment, urging a reevaluation of how we define the ideal candidate in job descriptions and hiring processes. [13:08] - Brian draws upon Simon Sinek's insightful video, dissecting the intricate relationship between trust and performance in teams, and highlighting the importance of trust in the makeup of high-performing teams. [15:00] - The Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software. Elevate your expertise with their Certified Scrum Product Owner® course and gain exclusive access to Mike Cohn’s Agile Mentors Community for a full year of continuous coaching and support. Explore the full spectrum of Certified Scrum and Agile Training on the Mountain Goat Software schedule. [16:44] - Pia-Maria introduces a groundbreaking perspective on measuring team success, steering away from individual performance metrics and static goals towards a more dynamic and holistic assessment strategy. [21:37] - Pia-Maria delves into the complex dynamics of employee departures and layoffs within the Agile HR framework, questioning how these principles reshape traditional approaches to such challenging situations. [28:11] - Pia-Maria raises compelling counterpoints to the general avoidance of specialization, inviting listeners to consider the circumstances under which honing in on specialized skills could be advantageous. [29:24] - Brian shares a big thank you to Pia-Maria for joining him on the show, inviting listeners to connect through Agile People or LinkedIn. [31:07] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM, CSPO, or Mike Cohn’s Live Online Better User Stories class, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. [31:40] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. References and resources mentioned in the show: Agile People Agile People: A Radical Approach for HR & Managers by Pia-Maria Thorén Agile People Principles by Pia-Maria Thorén Agile People Picture Book by Pia-Maria Thorén et al. “How Do You Measure Success?” By Simon Sinek Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Scrum Gathering in New Orleans 2024 Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Pia-Maria Thorén is the founder of Agile People and author of ‘Agile People' and specializes in driving organizational agility through HR, leadership, and motivation. She creates workplaces where employees perform better and feel engaged, contributing to successful transformations from both financial and human perspectives

Join Brian Milner and Master Coach Cherie Silas as they discuss the intricate dance between professional coaching and Agile coaching and unlock the secrets to empowering Agile transformations. Overview Join us on a captivating journey with Brian Milner and Cherie Silas, the visionary founder of Tandem Coaching, as they delve deep into the nuances that distinguish professional coaching from Agile coaching and learn why adopting a coaching mindset is crucial for effective Agile coaching. Explore the pivotal role of an Agile coach within an organization and the fine art of balancing consulting with true coaching to foster empowerment and self-solution finding. Cherie unravels the complexities of Agile practices, the thin line between coaching and counseling, and the transformative Tandem Coaching program. This episode is a treasure trove of insights for anyone looking to understand the essence of agile transformation and how it's not just about adopting new practices but about achieving meaningful business outcomes. Whether you're an aspiring agile coach or a seasoned professional seeking to deepen your understanding, this conversation is your gateway to elevating your agile journey. Listen Now to Discover: [01:18] - Join Brian as he greets Cherie Silas, the visionary behind Tandem Coaching, co-author of 'Enterprise Agile Coaching,' and a revered Master Coach. [03:38] - Listen in as Cherie clarifies the essential differences and intersections between professional coaching and the dynamic field of Agile coaching. [07:07] - Explore with Cherie as she articulates the nuanced differences between being labeled an 'Agile Coach' and embodying the true essence of Agile coaching. [09:15] - Cherie shares her expertise on striking the perfect balance between consulting and coaching, highlighting strategies for blending these two vital roles effectively. [12:12] - Brian highly endorses Cherie’s dynamic, mentorship-driven Professional Coach Training for anyone looking to deeply enrich their coaching abilities. [14:42] - Learn from Cherie the critical role of engaging as a thought partner in coaching clients, a fundamental strategy for fostering profound and effective Agile coaching connections. [18:00] - Discover with Cherie the dynamic strategy of engaging clients with thought-provoking questions like, "What's the challenge we're tackling?" and "What's the goal we're striving towards?" This approach not only clarifies objectives but also charts the course towards achieving them, making each coaching session a journey of mutual exploration and growth. [22:04] - If you're on the path to becoming a Certified Scrum Master, look no further than Mountain Goat Software's engaging, top-rated courses. Beyond the interactive classes, you'll gain a year-long membership to the Agile Mentors Community—a vibrant space to both give and receive mentorship. Dive deeper into your Agile practice and explore the Mountain Goat Software Training Schedule today. [24:47] - Join Cherie as she unveils the foundational pillars of becoming an exceptional coach - the art of active listening, the skill of insightful questioning, and the journey through coaching training. [27:17] - Brian invites listeners into a thought-provoking exploration of the nuanced differences between coaching and counseling, questioning how to skillfully navigate the boundaries that define and differentiate them. [31:44] - Brian shares a big thank you to Cherie for joining him on the show, inviting listeners to pick up the book, ‘Enterprise Agile Coaching’ and highly recommends Tandem Coaching’s training programs. [33:15] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback, a great idea, or a guest suggestion for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. References and resources mentioned in the show: Tandem Coaching Enterprise Agile Coaching: Sustaining Organizational Change Through Invitational Agile Coaching by Cherie Silas, Michael de la Maza, and Alex Kudinov Professional Coach & Team Coach Training with Cherie Silas and Tandem Coaching 2024 Global Scrum Gathering in New Orleans Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Join the Agile Mentors Community Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Cherie Silas is a Certified Enterprise Coach (CEC) and is the first agile coach to be awarded the ICF Master Certified Coach (MCC). She is the Founder and CEO of Tandem Coaching with a 20-year legacy in corporate leadership and co-author of the book Enterprise Agile Coaching: Sustaining Organizational Change Through Invitational Agile Coaching

Join Brian and Avipaul Bhandari as they uncover a secret to transformative Agile teams. Discover how one-on-one conversations can redefine team dynamics and even scaled organizational culture. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Avipaul Bhandari, a seasoned Agile coach, takes us through the critical role of one-on-one meetings in nurturing agile teams. Avipaul sheds light on how such meetings are pivotal in building trust, understanding individual perspectives, and fostering a culture of empathy. By adopting a coaching mindset, Scrum Masters and coaches can empower team members to lead the conversation, encouraging them to uncover and propose their own solutions. Listen in as they explore the profound impact these meetings have on scaling agile principles and catalyzing cultural transformation within organizations. Through emphasizing individual strengths and ensuring a safe environment for honest dialogue, one-on-ones emerge as a key strategy for enhancing team performance and achieving agile excellence. Tune in to learn how you can leverage one-on-one meetings to unlock the full potential of your team and spearhead a shift in your organizational culture. Listen Now to Discover: [01:15] - Brian warmly welcomes Avipaul Bhandari, a distinguished Agile coach and musician, joining us by popular demand from our listener community. [02:26] - Avipaul unveils the secrets behind effective one-on-one interactions and their ripple effect on enhancing organizational culture. [05:54] - Avipaul heralds human connection as a key driver of positivity and cohesion within teams, advocating for its impact on team success. [07:14] - Discover how Avipaul successfully navigated resistance to one-on-one meetings, turning reluctance into productive conversations, even from those claiming to have nothing to say. [10:55] - Mountain Goat Software is the sponsor for this podcast. Whether you’re looking to get Certified ScrumMaster® (CSM) or Certified Scrum Product Owner® (CSPO) training or want to take an Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® (ACSM) class, click here to see what we have to offer. [12:00] - Brian discusses the profound impact of empathy and Simon Sinek's approach to nurturing a culture of psychological safety. [13:05] - Avipaul shares insights on enhancing empathy in the team members and yourself through the intimate dialogue of one-on-one meetings. [19:23] - Avipaul unpacks how one-on-ones within scaled teams can significantly boost processes and deeply motivate team members. [23:10] - Brian highlights how these interactions can embody and influence the broader company culture through demonstration, creating a ripple effect of positive change. [23:47] - Avipaul makes a compelling case for the power of respect in eliciting the best performance from everyone. [26:43] - Brian shares a big thank you to Avipaul for joining him on the show and the lister who suggested him! If you have a topic or person you would love to hear on the podcast, send your suggestions to [email protected] [27:41] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®, Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®, and Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes; you can find the schedule here. [28:41] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. References and resources mentioned in the show: Avipaul Bhandari Listen to Avipaul’s music on Spotify Simon Sinek’s Books Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Avipaul Bhandari is an established agile coach and musician with over 20 years of experience. He is an intuitive and knowledgeable change agent and has been instrumental in successful agile adoptions in companies such as Microsoft, the Financial Times, Allianz, and others.

Join Brian Milner and Anton Skornyakov as they tackle the often overlooked art of slicing work on this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. Discover how this pivotal strategy can revolutionize feedback loops and drive impactful results across industries. Overview Join us on a riveting journey with Agile expert Anton Skornyakov to unearth the transformative power of slicing work in Agile environments. In a world where most projects miss the mark on effective breakdown, Anton sheds light on the critical need for well-sliced work to secure valuable customer feedback and accelerate delivery of results. From the nuanced art of vertical slicing to innovative strategies for tackling complex story breakdowns, this episode is packed with insights and practical examples that span beyond the confines of software development. Whether you're grappling with how to split your next project into manageable increments or seeking to refine your Agile practice, Anton's expert advice and favorite splitting techniques offer a roadmap to success. Listen Now to Discover: [01:20] - Brian introduces an Agile Mentors Podcast listener-requested guest, Anton Skornyakov, Certified Scrum Trainer® and author of The Art of Slicing Work. [02:20] - Hear Anton recount the real-world struggles of translating the fundamental principle of defining effective increments into actionable insights for teams beyond software development. [04:39] - Anton delves into the art of work slicing by expertly applying the rules for splitting user stories, revealing insights for seamless practice. [06:41] - Anton brings vertical slicing to life with a relatable dinner party analogy, illustrating its transformative impact on teamwork. [11:12] - Anton uncovers the magic of vertical slicing, revealing its pivotal role in enhancing team responsibility—an esteemed Agile virtue. [13:01] - Facing challenges in cultivating a unified understanding of Agile principles across your team? Let Mountain Goat Software elevate your team's agility—from non-software teams to the executive suite. [13:58] - Brian expands the conversation to explore the far-reaching implications of vertical slicing on project management and team dynamics. [16:36] - Confronting a familiar hurdle, Anton dissects the notion that the complexity of work stands in the way of effective slicing. [17:57] - Anton explores strategies for navigating resistance when team members push back against the practice of slicing work. [19:20] - Anton reveals his insights into teams' struggles with splitting tasks they deem too large and how to overcome this perception. [24:43] - Anton shares his favorite ways of breaking down work. [28:47] - Brian expresses heartfelt gratitude to Anton for his invaluable insights on today's show and extends a warm thank you to the listeners for their brilliant guest recommendations. If you have a guest or topic suggestion for an upcoming episode, send us an email at [email protected] [39:56] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Please like, subscribe, and share with your friends. [30:30] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. References and resources mentioned in the show: The Art of Slicing Work by Anton Skornyakov Agile.Coach Introduction to Agile Working on a Scrum Team Agile for Leaders Mountain Goat Software’s Courses Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Anton Skornyakov is a Certified Scrum Trainer® and author of The Art of Slicing Work. He is passionate about educating and supporting organizations, reliably delivering results on unpredictable projects.

Join Brian and David Bland as they journey into the novel idea of testing assumptions before development to avoid costly mistakes and ensure the right things are being built in the latest episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast—a must-listen for any product owner wanting to determine if their team is working on the right thing. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian talks all things testing with David Bland, the founder of Precoil and co-author of the book Testing Business Ideas: A Field Guide for Rapid Experimentation. Learn the importance of testing assumptions and experimentation in product development as David shares his journey from working in startups to coaching and consulting and how he realized the need to bring Agile principles into the discovery phase of product development. You can listen in as they explore the concept of testing business ideas and the three-step process of extracting assumptions, prioritizing them, and running experiments. Listen Now to Discover: [01:01] - Brian introduces David Bland, founder of Precoil and co-author of Testing Business Ideas: A Field Guide for Rapid Experimentation. [02:10] - David dives into weaving testing assumptions and experimentation into managing the product backlog for product owners. [02:51] - David discusses how you can determine if you're working on the right things and prevent iteratively delivering something that nobody cares about by applying the Agile principles further upstream. [04:20] - Brain adds insight with the notion of being selective as the product owner, referencing the work of Henrik Kniberg. [05:18] - David breaks down the themes he developed from design thinking and how they apply beautifully to the product backlog: desirable, viable, & feasible [06:50] - Brian asks the question burning through many of our minds, “How do you apply it to testing your ideas?” [07:15] - David lays out the three-step process he uses and applies to testing business, product, and service ideas. [08:32] - David discusses the difference between requirements and assumptions. [10:33] - David provides a practical example of adding wishlist functionality to a website and what testing this idea would look like under his testing framework. [14:47] - Today's episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software's Private Training for Agile transformations. Get your team on the same page through customized training and coaching programs to level-set your team. For more information, visit the Mountain Goat Software’s Private Training page. [16:07] - Brian poses the concept of asking, “How does an idea move the needle” before the idea is developed? [18:14] - David shares his thoughts on running customer-facing acceptance criteria and the product death cycle, a term David coined. [21:06] - David provides an example of a client who puts a positive spin on killing projects that prove not to be viable via testing. [22:33] - Brian asks if there are testing methods that can be applied after a product launch as a lagging indicator of the launch. [24:57] - Brian clarifies the value of testing before making a bet on a new product, even as an entrepreneur working alone, through the example of knowing how a bet will play out in a Las Vegas casino. [25:38] - David lays out the common objections he sees from companies and how you could address them. [27:13] - David lays out one of his favorite techniques for testing, concierge, which he lays out in detail in his book. [30:41] - Brian draws the conversation back to the Agile Manifesto. [31:49] - Brian shares a big thank you to David for joining him on the show. [33:30] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. References and resources mentioned in the show: David Bland Precoil Testing Business Ideas: A Field Guide for Rapid Experimentation by David Bland & Alexander Osterwalder #25 Scaling with Henrik Kniberg Agile Manifesto Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Mountain Goat Software’s Private Training Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. David J Bland helps companies such as GE, Toyota, Adobe, HP, and Behr find product market fit using lean startup, design thinking, and business model innovation through his company, Precoil. He is the lead author of Testing Business Ideas with Alexander Osterwalder.

Have you ever returned to an old User Story and wondered, “what was I thinking?” On today’s episode, Mike Cohn, walks us through how and why he recently revisited and updated 200 Real Life User Story Examples from his past projects and updated a resource for you! Listen in as Mike and Brian share what worked and what didn’t work from the past, in an effort to make their user story writing skills stronger. Overview What makes a user or job story great? In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner and Mike Cohn of Mountain Goat Software, share Mike’s recent updates and edit to 200 Real Life User Story Examples. Listen as they revisit 200 older user stories, breaking down their analysis through the lens of more experience and an evolving technological landscape. Plus, in true iterative fashion, Mike shares how he is still working to write better user stories after years of perfecting and teaching the art of story writing. Tune in to learn what makes a great clear user story, and what makes a story that stinks. Listen Now to Discover: [00:57] - Brian is joined today by Mike Cohn who will be revisiting user stories. [02:58] - Mike talks about how he came back to these 200 user stories and decided that some of them sucked and needed updating. [04:42] - When writing user stories, Mike talks about prioritizing meaningful conversations over perfect user stories. [06:35] - Brian underscores the importance of efficient communication with developers through unconventional yet practical user stories. [07:22] - Brian points to previous podcast episodes with Mike that delve into the basics of writing user stories, in episode, #10 Why User Stories are the Best Way to Capture Requirements with Mike Cohn and #39 The Art of Writing User Stories with Mike Cohn [08:22] - Mike walks through a story written for the development of the Scrum Alliance website, noting it is framed well within the site's premise. [09:10] - Brian raises considerations about inserting information mid-story. [09:57] - Mike finds the story intriguing but suggests simplifying it by moving details into acceptance criteria, a notion that didn’t exist at the time, for clarity. [12:03] - Mike advocates for concise user stories, suggesting omitting unnecessary details and using acceptance criteria for specifics. [13:52] - In a job story example, Mike and Brian point out common mistakes from an era without distinct fields. [16:34] - Brian understands the attempt to prompt discussion in the job story but finds it normal overall. [17:32] - Mike critiques a job story for site admins approving job postings, suggesting modernizing language for notification methods and flexibility. [19:34] - Reflecting on a story about user authentication, Mike acknowledges a bias toward email-centric perspectives, and questions if this story goes too far separating the what and the how. [21:22] - Mike highlights story #42, recognizing a potential mistake in specifying UI details in a story about navigating job listings. [23:24] - If you’re struggling to get your team or organization on the same Agile page from team members to senior executives. Mountain Goat Software can help you Build a Common Understanding of Agile on your team! [24:17] - If you’re a visual learner or you’d like to follow along, you can find the pdf of all the user and job stories discussed in this episode, plus many more, right here. [25:12] - Mike defends a story about viewing detailed course pages, acknowledging UI implications but justifying the necessity of the detail. [27:13] - Mike critiques a user story about creating user accounts, cautioning against a potentially misleading "so that" clause with a specific example. [29:18] - Reflecting on the evolution of user stories, Mike emphasizes a shift from stating "I can" or "I want to" to a more neutral "I." [30:40] - Critiquing a user story about browser compatibility, Mike suggests that it's a nonfunctional requirement and better suited as part of the definition of done. [33:18] - Brian presents a user story for Mountain Goat Software’s Planning Poker tool about database indexes, expressing reservations about the commonality of developer-focused stories. [34:00] - Mike reflects on the “as a developer” story and expresses uncertainty about its inclusion, considering it potentially problematic. [36:22] - Mike critiques a story about database analysis, acknowledging its verbosity but justifying the detail as necessary for clarifying the researcher's role and objectives. [38:03] - Brian appreciates the brevity of the "I want" part of a user story and finds the "so that" clause acceptable as it provides examples and context for developers. [38:39] - Considering a story about storing results, Mike deems it not bad but potentially too long. [40:00] - Mike highlights that the best way to get better at writing stories is to write a bunch of them, acknowledging that his early stories taught him valuable lessons. [41:03] - Brian thanks listeners and invites them to share and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. [41:29] - Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. References and resources mentioned in the show: Free download: 200 User Story Examples #10 Why User Stories are the Best Way to Capture Requirements with Mike Cohn #39 The Art of Writing User Stories with Mike Cohn User Stories Applied: For Agile Software Development by Mike Cohn Job Stories Offer a Viable Alternative to User Stories by Mike Cohn Mountain Goat Software’s Planning Poker Better User Stories Course Build a Common Understanding of Agile Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.  Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Mike Cohn, CEO of Mountain Goat Software, is a passionate advocate for agile methodologies. Co-founder of Agile Alliance and Scrum Alliance, he thrives on helping companies succeed with Agile and witnessing its transformative impact on individuals' careers. Mike resides in Northern Idaho with his family, two Havanese dogs, and an impressive hot sauce collection.

In this week’s episode, Brian is joined by the legendary Ken Rubin, the author of Essential Scrum. Together, they dive deep into the world of dependencies in larger organizations and scaling, drawing from Ken's extensive experience since the early days of Scrum. If you're navigating the complexities of dependencies and looking to optimize your team's flow, this episode is a must-listen. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian welcomes the iconic Ken Rubin to explore the intricate realm of dependencies at scale. They dive into the impact of dependencies on flow, the challenges of scaling, and the effectiveness of feature teams in managing structural dependencies. Ken shares valuable insights into the myths surrounding dependencies and practical strategies for minimizing their impact, whether they involve external partners, scarce specialized roles, or deliberate component teams. As a bonus, Ken announces his upcoming one-day live online course where you’ll dive deeper into effective dependency management strategies, Dependencies are Killing Your Agility: Learn to Fight Back! Tune in as Ken and Brian provide practical wisdom, actionable strategies, and a wealth of knowledge. Listen Now to Discover: [01:16] - In today’s episode, Brian sits down with the first director of the Scrum Alliance and author of Essential Scrum, Ken Rubin. [03:03] - Ken defines dependencies as a relationship between two or more entities that requires collaboration or coordination. [04:31] - Ken distinguishes two dependency types: structural and instantiated. [06:48] - Brian emphasizes addressing the root cause of dependencies, comparing it to optimizing water flow in plumbing systems. [08:06] - Ken stresses the importance of addressing structural dependencies to prevent them from becoming blockers and impeding flow. [10:18] - Brian highlights an upcoming one-day live online course with Ken titled Dependencies are Killing Your Agility: Learn to Fight Back! on March 14th, emphasizing its relevance for Scrum Masters and product owners. [11:10] - Ken defines the concept of flow and compares it to the concept of utilization. [13:04] - Leaders listening should prioritize optimizing flow over squeezing individuals for efficiency. [14:23] - Ken underscores the importance of managing structural dependencies by balancing system-level WIP. [16:28] - Ken debunks the myth that 100% feature teams can eliminate all dependency issues. [19:14] - Ken shares how feature teams are compelling but face exponential challenges. [21:45] - Ken explores the need for specialized roles in scaling feature teams, proposing a threshold approach. [24:57] - Discover why Ken advocates for a combined feature and component team model, suggesting systemic swarming for specialized roles. [26:55] - Today's episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software's Private Training for Agile transformations. Get your team on the same page through subject-specific training, coaching, and mentoring. For more information, visit the Mountain Goat Software’s Private Training page. [28:06] - Ken challenges the idea of a one-size-fits-all solution for dependency problems, cautioning about tool limitations. [30:25] - Ken proposes expanding the concept of working agreements to include inter-team arrangements. [33:55] - Ken highlights the misconception of solving external dependencies through internal escalation, stressing the limitations and challenges. [35:40] - Ken dispels the myth that identifying dependencies means solving the problem, emphasizing the need for control. [38:35] - Brian highlights the significant impact of waiting time, using the example of ordering a t-shirt online. [39:36] - Addressing flow problems in scaling challenges is crucial. [42:35] - Brian underscores the impact of addressing flow issues and promotes Ken's upcoming one-day live online course, Dependencies are Killing Your Agility: Learn to Fight Back! on March 14th [43:24] - Brian highlights the value of Ken's insights on dependencies and provides helpful resources and links. [43:50] - Brian thanks listeners and invites them to share and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. [47:26] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. [48:12] - Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. References and resources mentioned in the show: Dependencies are Killing Your Agility: Learn to Fight Back! Essential Scrum by Kenneth Rubin Innolution Dependencies Are Killing Your Agile Flow at Scale by Ken Rubin #47 Exploring Lean Thinking In Agile Development with Bob Payne Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Mountain Goat Software’s Private Training Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Ken Rubin is the #1 best-selling author of Essential Scrum and world-renowned Agile trainer and coach. Ken focuses on full end-to-end business agility, applying agile ways of working with your development teams, technical and business leaders, executives, as well as the important non-development groups that are critical to providing your whole product solutions.

Join Brian in this solo episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast as he tackles listener questions, discussing topics ranging from the impact of AI on Scrum teams to managing retrospective challenges and fostering active participation. Don't miss this episode filled with practical advice and thought-provoking discussions. Overview In this solo episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian answers listener questions unraveling everything from AI's role in Scrum to the complexities of Agile practices and team dynamics. Listen in for valuable insights as Brian explores metrics for evaluating the effectiveness of product owners, offering key indicators for project success. He also discusses managing challenges within retrospectives, including strategies for handling upper management involvement, fostering transparent reporting, and the significance of visibility in sprint reviews. Discover the art of promoting active participation in retrospectives—Brian underscores the significance of psychological safety within teams and offers actionable insights into tailoring retrospective approaches to your team’s diverse personality types. Tune in as Brian answers listener questions with both practical wisdom and actionable advice. Listen Now to Discover: [01:18] - In today’s episode, Brian sits down to answer Agile Mentors Podcast listener questions. [01:59] - Brian briefly shares a personal update about speaking at the upcoming Global Scrum Gathering 2024 New Orleans and invites listeners to attend. [03:21] - The first listener question explores whether AI can replace members of a Scrum team. Brian discusses the current state of AI and its potential applications in different roles within a Scrum team. He also shares how his team is using “Goatbot.” [08:10] - For the second listener question Brian tackles the issue of handling resistance to Agile from a team member, sharing some strategies to understand the root cause and address misunderstandings. [11:48] - Brian introduces the third question about using metrics to judge the effectiveness of a product owner. [14:47] - Brian discusses handling retrospective issues involving upper management, and the value of transparent reporting. [16:42] - Brian explores scenarios about the cost of addressing an impediment and the importance of transparent decision-making by the organization. [17:22] - Brian suggests raising visibility in sprint reviews and seeking assistance from stakeholders or powerful individuals to address unresolved issues. [18:45] - Today's episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software's Certified Product Owner Course. This is a two-day training course taught by one of our Certified Scrum Trainers to teach you how to use the product backlog as a tool for project success. For more information, visit the Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule. [24:39] - Brian explores the issue of low participation in retrospectives, and how to tailor approaches to different personality types for more active engagement. He highlights the work of Amy Edmondson, suggesting her research on psychological safety for deeper insights into team dynamics and participation. [26:15] - Lack of safety may be the Scrum Master's responsibility. [27:18] - Awareness of personality types is crucial for Scrum Masters. Brian advises varying retrospective formats to avoid monotony, including visual and written formats tailored to diverse preferences. [30:38] - Brian thanks listeners and invites them to share and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. [31:23] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. [32:39] - Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. References and resources mentioned in the show: Global Scrum Gathering 2024 New Orleans Psychological Safety – Amy C. Edmondson Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Certified ScrumMaster Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

Join Brian and Scott Dunn as they journey into the heart of handling conflicts and challenges within small teams for effective teamwork in the latest episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Scott Dunn sits down with Brian to delve into handling conflicts and challenges within small teams. From the impact of hierarchies on team dynamics to the nuances of technical leadership, listen in as Brian and Scott tackle the intricacies of managing conflicts to navigate the delicate balance between individual excellence and fostering a collaborative team culture. Listen in as Listen Now to Discover: [01:54] - Today, Brian is sitting down with Scott Dunn to discuss the topic of handling conflicts and challenges in small teams, particularly regarding hierarchies and experience levels. [03:17] - Scott shares his experience with issues arising from unofficial authorities, highlighting challenges with project managers and leads. [04:03] - Scott talks about the transition to a democratic process and shares a humorous anecdote about a unique meeting disruption and the resolution. [07:27] - Brian discusses the challenge of individuals feeling a loss of authority in the shift to self-organization and emphasizes the need for communication to address their concerns. [08:27] - Brian categorizes leads into obstructive and unintentionally hindering types. [09:27] - Scott discusses the need for aligning expectations with Agile principles. [11:34] - Brian discusses the challenges faced by Scrum Masters and Agile coaches in identifying and addressing team dynamics, emphasizing the importance of clear communication, and understanding to resolve misunderstandings. [12:07] - Scott shares an example of a scrum master effectively addressing a bottleneck issue with a lead. [13:13] - Brian highlights a leadership misunderstanding where senior individuals are consistently assigned challenging tasks and the unintended consequences of pigeonholing experts into specific roles. [14:35] - Scott shares experiences of individuals falling into roles they didn't initially choose, and the negative impact on job satisfaction. [15:32] - The importance of promoting teamwork, continuous learning, and adaptability over being the sole expert. [16:11] - Brian discusses the issue of knowledge silos and suggests a proactive approach within the team to mitigate risks and ensure knowledge sharing. [16:32] - The importance of managing resource fungibility and avoiding bottlenecks. [17:40] - Brian debunks the idea of job security for those deliberately hoarding knowledge and emphasizes the importance of staying marketable and adaptable. [18:52] - Scott highlights the consequences of being difficult to work with and shares the secret for long-term professional success. [20:00] - The Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software and their Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® course. Plus, automatic enrollment in Mike Cohn’s Agile Mentors Community, including twelve months of ongoing coaching and support. To learn more, check out the Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule. [20:42] - How different roles, especially leads, should interact in a scrum team where equality is emphasized. [21:34] - The importance of a lead developer having a mindset focused on helping others succeed and empowering the team. [22:31] - Scott defines true technical leadership and the importance of empowering team members to scale workload and creating a culture of learning within the team. [23:59] - The impact of senior team members as "pollinators of learning." [24:56] - Brian defines a lead's role using sports analogies to illustrate leadership beyond individual excellence. [26:48] - Brian shares the ‘see one, do one, teach one model for successful leadership and teams. [27:57] - Leveling up expectations and helping and asking for help as a lead. [32:32] - Setting the example by what you do, not by what you say. [33:17] - The importance of leads in establishing culture. [34:53] - Brian shares a big thank you to Scott for joining him on the show. [35:29] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. [36:10] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. References and resources mentioned in the show: Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Certified ScrumMaster Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.  Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum.

Join Brian and Emilia Breton as they explore AI and its practical applications in Agile, from enhancing productivity to coaching. Don't miss their insights on AI tools shaping the future of Agile. Overview Today, Brian sits down with Emilia Breton to unravel the dynamic intersection of Artificial Intelligence (AI) and Agile. Brian and Emilia share their experiences and experiments with AI tools, revealing how they leverage these technologies to enhance productivity and decision-making and amplify human capabilities. Listen in to learn more about the evolving landscape where AI and Agile converge to shape the future of work. Listen Now to Discover: [01:25] - Brian welcomes Emilia Breton to the show to talk about the intersection of AI and Agile, focusing on using AI to enhance human connections. [03:04] - Emilia shares that it's about using AI to accentuate our humanity and create space for us to connect, observe, and inspire. [05:15] - Emilia discusses the questions about copyright for AI-produced content, such as code and why It's important to be able to trace where AI-derived information comes from. [06:02] - Brian reflects on the rapid evolution of mass-consumable AI and its transformative impact over the past year. [06:39] - Emilia underscores the importance of visibility in AI outputs, and the need to cross-verify AI-generated information with human expertise. [08:41] - Brian introduces the concept of hallucination in AI, emphasizing that AI can't think or reason, and it may generate false information to please users. [10:29] - The importance and irreplaceable qualities of human competence. [11:30] - How tools like Lucidspark can help with ideas during product brainstorms or retrospectives. Otter.ai and Spinach.io can automate tasks like taking meeting notes and updating Jira, saving time for more important work. [14:16] - Brian introduces Rewind.ai, a tool that records computer activities for later recall, explaining its potential benefits and privacy considerations. [16:10] - The Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software and today’s episode is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software's Certified ScrumMaster Class a two-day class covering the fundamental principles of scrum as well as detail about the different roles, meetings, and artifacts. For more information click on the Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule. [17:01] - Emilia explores the use of AI to spark inspiration, and shares generative AI art programs DALL·E or Midjourney. [20:06] - Emilia discusses using Grammarly and AI as a partner in content creation, to iterate prompts to achieve the desired tone and style. [21:10] - Discussing Google's new multimodal Gemini models, which can translate speech, text, video, and images. [22:07] - NotebookLM is designed for researchers to organize and refer to research papers and articles. Brian shares his experience with this tool. [22:48] - The speakers discuss using AI for data analysis to interpret large datasets, capture notes, brainstorm ideas, and facilitate retrospectives to enhance Agile practices. [25:08] - Brian and Emilia discuss how AI can be a valuable tool in coaching and can assist in facilitating sessions. [28:08] - What lies ahead with AI? [29:24] - Brian sends a huge thank you to Emilia for being on the show. If you found this episode useful, please share this episode with others. We’d love your feedback and suggestions for future episodes. You can email us at [email protected]. And don’t forget to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. [30:09] - If this topic was impactful to you and you want to continue the discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community where we have a topic discussion for each podcast episode. You can get a free year-long membership in the community just by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software. References and resources mentioned in the show: Emilia Breton Lucidspark Otter.ai Spinach.io Rewind.ai  DALL·E Midjourney NotebookLM Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Certified ScrumMaster Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Emilia Breton is an Agile wizard with over two decades of experience, who effortlessly navigates the realms of startups and global corporations. Specializing in guiding both scrappy ventures and colossal entities, she brings innovative approaches to software development and team building. Emilia's commitment to injecting playfulness ensures a dynamic and creative touch to Agile practices, making her the go-to coach for those ready to elevate their software development game.

Ever wondered how visuals can transform your role as a product owner? Join Brian as he sits down with visual storyteller Stuart Young to unravel the power of visualization in product ownership. Join them on a journey to discover the art and science behind being a successful product owner. Overview Ever wondered how to elevate your product ownership game? In this episode, we delve into the world of visual storytelling with Stuart Young. Join Brian and Stuart as they discuss the diverse tools, such as story mapping and the product disposition canvas, that can bring your product visions to life. From storytelling techniques to the neurodiversity lens, we explore the art and science of communication that transcends traditional boundaries. Listen in to uncover the impactful ways visuals can shape your product strategy. Learn how being more visual can sharpen your skills, foster collaboration, and create a more inclusive and successful product development journey. Listen Now to Discover: [00:23] - Today welcomes Stuart Young, a Certified Scrum Trainer and visual storyteller to discuss storytelling through the product lens and more. [03:32] - Stuart discusses drawing large-scale pictures at conferences and recommends Visual Meetings and Visual Leaders by David Sibbit. [06:54] - Stuart emphasizes the impact of visual storytelling on individuals, highlighting the universal language and information retention through visuals. [08:46] - The benefits of visual representation in capturing the flow of ideas and aiding memory. [10:26] - The importance of varied methods for engaging different learning styles. [11:41] - Stuart discusses the value of visualization tools such as roadmaps, post-it notes, and story mapping to provide clarity and a clear narrative. [12:14] - The importance of blending Stuart references Pixar and Ed Catmull's book Creativity, Inc., discussing the importance of blending exciting elements, like storyboarding, in motivating teams and creating a compelling narrative. [15:13] - Stuart emphasizes the importance of authentic storytelling, even if it doesn't always have a happy ending, he references TEDxHogeschoolUtrecht - Steve Denning - “Leadership Storytelling" for further inspiration. [15:25] - Brian recommends Simon Sinek's TED talk on "Start With Why" as an example of effective storytelling despite not being visually polished. [16:09] - Stuart praises Henrik Kniberg's impactful video on product ownership, acknowledging the simplicity of the drawings but highlighting the potency of storytelling. He recommends the Sketchnote Handbook by Mike Rhodes for those interested in delving further into storytelling. [17:08] - The Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software and their Certified Scrum Training Classes. For more information, click on the Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule. [18:38] - Stuart highlights the significance of visual elements in crafting compelling visions and underscores the value of utilizing available templates, from sources like the Gamestorming book. [20:06] - Stuart discusses the role of visualization in making the intangible tangible, particularly in the tech space. [21:50] - Brian emphasizes the imprecision of words. He also discusses the value of showing rather than just telling, especially in product requirements, to enhance understanding and avoid delays caused by miscommunications. [23:34] - Stuart reflects on how visual communication can enhance inclusivity. He shares, “For people with reading and writing difficulties, pictures and symbols are better. The worst, the most abstract form, of course, is the word.” [25:22] - The role of a visual storyteller as a "human cursor" connecting diverse conceptual thinkers. Stuart recounts an illustration experience, emphasizing the challenge of visualizing details without clear specifications and underscoring the mantra of "process over art" in product ownership. [28:06] - Stuart underscores the product owner's role in leveraging the unique skills of team members to converge on a shared understanding of what "good" looks like. [29:19] - Brian references the episode of the show they did on Navigating Neurodiversity and the importance of understanding and accommodating different communication styles within a team. He highlights the need for product owners to be aware of the preferences of their team members and adjust communication methods accordingly. [30:54] - Stuart introduces the product disposition canvas and shares a personal revelation. [32:54] - Brian acknowledges the potential superpowers that come with neurodiversity, sharing his own experience of a late-in-life ADHD diagnosis and the benefits of leveraging the unique qualities each team member brings to a team. [33:36] - Stuart reflects on the importance of recognizing individual strengths and blind spots, emphasizing that everyone has a valuable contribution. [34:20] - Stuart encourages recognizing individual strengths for collective success. [35:23] - Listeners can connect with Stuart on LinkedIn and at Agile Nuggets | Agile Tips [37:38] - Please share this episode with others if you found it useful. Send feedback and suggestions for future episodes to [email protected]. And don’t forget to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. [38:21] - If this topic was impactful to you and you want to continue the discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community where we have a topic discussion for each podcast episode. You can get a free year-long membership in the community just by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software. References and resources mentioned in the show: Stuart Young on LinkedIn Agile Nuggets | Agile Tips | Cprime Learning Scrum in Under 10 Minutes #76: Navigating Neurodiversity for High-Performing Teams with Susan Fitzell David Sibbet Visual Meetings by David Sibbet Visual Leaders by David Sibbet Creativity, Inc. Sketchnote Handbook by Mike Rohde TEDxHogeschoolUtrecht - Steve Denning - “Leadership Storytelling" Simon Sinek: How Great Leaders Inspire Action | TED Talk Agile Product Ownership in a Nutshell by Henrik Kniberg Gamestorming: A Playbook for Innovators, Rulebreakers, and Changemakers Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Certified ScrumMaster Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Stuart Young, a Certified Scrum Trainer and Visual Storyteller, merges Agile methodologies and design thinking to empower individuals and teams. As a thought leader, he champions Visual Storytelling for engaging stakeholders, addressing customer needs, and expediting learning. Through workshops, Stuart encourages teams to embrace visual methodologies to achieve business success.

Are you part of a struggling Agile team? Join Mike Cohn and Brian Milner in this episode as they uncover the primary signs of a team in distress. Listen in as they share the common causes of underperforming teams, and what to do to boost morale, enhance collaboration, and transform your Agile team from struggling to thriving! Overview What is the primary sign of a struggling Agile team? It's when the energy in the room feels like a deflated balloon, and laughter is a distant memory. In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner and Mike Cohn of Mountain Goat Software help listeners identify the signs of a struggling Agile team and the common culprits. Listen in as they unveil the key principles of cultivating a positive work environment and the vital importance of addressing CYA behavior. Plus, they share their top-notch tips on boosting team morale and enhancing collaboration, all while preventing unfinished projects and ensuring consistent delivery. Tune in to transform your Agile team from struggling to thriving! Listen Now to Discover: [01:23] - Brian welcomes back Mike Cohn to the show to discuss how to identify the signs that your team is struggling and what to do about it. [01:54] - Common causes of unfinished work. [04:45] - Do developers use Scrum as an excuse to be lazy? No—that’s rare but can be easily corrected. [07:36] - How to manage underperforming teams. [09:04] - Teams that lack excitement and laughter may be struggling. Work should be fun and enjoyable. How to create a positive work environment. [10:32] - How to break the habit of rolling unfinished work forward. [12:44] - The power of small wins to improve job satisfaction. [14:12] - How to boost morale and deliver small wins that create a sense of accomplishment. [14:30] - The Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software and their Certified Scrum Training Classes. Whether you want to be a Scrum Master, Product Owner, or even take an advanced certification, all courses are designed to give you the skills that agile teams and organizations value so you’ll stand out in the market. For more information click on the Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule. [15:35] - What CYA is really telling you about your team. [16:59] - The role of managers in creating an environment of openness and collaboration [19:03] - How individualistic behavior—working in isolation, not collaborating—hinders teamwork. [21:08] - Introducing Swarming—a horrible way to work, you’ll get less done—but a great drill to help teams discover new ways to collaborate. [27:54] - Thank you to Mike Cohn for joining us on the show. [28:18] - Please share this episode with others if you found it useful. Send feedback and suggestions for future episodes to [email protected]. And don’t forget to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. [27:54] - If this topic was impactful to you and you want to continue the discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community, where we have a topic discussion for each podcast episode. References and resources mentioned in the show: #70: The Role of a Leader in Agile with Mike Cohn #39: The Art of Writing User Stories with Mike Cohn Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Certified ScrumMaster Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Mike Cohn, CEO of Mountain Goat Software, is a passionate advocate for agile methodologies. Co-founder of Agile Alliance and Scrum Alliance, he thrives on helping companies succeed with Agile and witnessing its transformative impact on individuals' careers. Mike resides in Northern Idaho with his family, two Havanese dogs, and an impressive hot sauce collection.

Join Brian and his guest Lance Dacy as they dive into the trends and challenges awaiting the Agile community in 2024 and the importance of adapting Agile principles to the hyper-competitive world of product development. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian sits down with Lance Dacy to take a deep dive into the anticipated trends and challenges awaiting the Agile community in 2024. The duo explores the ongoing debate between remote and in-person work, the imperative need for innovation in leadership and management, and the intricacies of forward-thinking strategies as we work toward building organizations tailored for the future. Join Brian and Lance as they navigate the complex intersection of Agile principles, organizational leadership, and the ever-evolving landscape of the business world in 2024. Listen Now to Discover: [01:17] - Brian Milner has Lance Dacy on the show today for the traditional discussion of looking ahead at trends and upcoming developments in the Agile and Scrum space for 2024. [02:10] - Remote vs. in-person work—opening the discussion with this hot-button topic and the evolving debate. [03:31] - Lance offers his insights on organizations' adaptive strategies, what we learned during the pandemic, and the potential benefits and drawbacks of remote work. [05:58] - The loss of collaboration and learning when in a remote environment. [07:22] - The hybrid work solution. [07:36] - Brian shares a study favoring in-office productivity. [09:50] - Lance shares his personal work-at-home challenges and the importance of aligning work environments with individual personalities and preferences. [11:32] - The importance of accommodating individual preferences and working styles, and the need for organizations to match their environments to employees rather than requiring employees to adapt. [12:58] - The challenges faced by managers and leaders in making decisions about remote work, and the importance of flexibility in work hours. [15:20] - Brian raises concern about layoffs in the Agile area during tough economic times, questioning if it's the right strategy for long-term success. [16:23] - Lance emphasizes the need for understanding Agile rather than blindly applying it, suggesting the Agile industry may be bloated and encouraging a focus on culture and effective coaching. [17:23] - Mountain Goat Software, is the sponsor for this podcast. Whether you’re looking to get Certified ScrumMaster (CSM) or Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO) training or want to take an Advanced Certified ScrumMaster (ACSM) class, click here to see what we have to offer. [19:33] - Leadership and management innovation—Brian and Lance discuss the need for organizations to prioritize human-centric management AND leadership innovation, citing Gary Hamel's concept of building organizations fit for the future. [23:25] - Lance discusses the devaluation of the human element in organizations. [24:31] - Brian and Lance share their insight into the devaluation of developers, and the need for discussion on the trajectory of Agile in the face of such challenges. [25:55] - Lance highlights the need to educate leaders and managers on the criticality of Agile budgeting alongside project management to align expectations. [27:40] - Lance addresses the challenge in achieving true Agility, and why coaches offer such a long-term ROI. [28:10] - The importance of educating leaders on the value of coaching, psychological safety, and the need for a neutral perspective in fostering organizational improvement. [29:15] - Brian predicts a continued emphasis on cost-cutting in 2024 due to economic uncertainty. [29:57] - Brian expresses his concern about the long-term negative impact of eliminating coaching roles. [31:34] - Lance anticipates a cultural shift that might make it difficult for companies to attract talent if they don’t embrace more human-focused values that empower individuals. [32:59] - Lance urges Agile coaches to adapt to a changing paradigm and discusses the challenge for leaders and managers to shed bureaucratic structures and implement an effective strategy for embracing these principles. [34:17] - Brian urges a reevaluation of Agile's focus, emphasizing transparency and adaptability over rigid structures and roles. [34:48] - Brian stresses Agile's strength in handling unexpected challenges and calls on Agilists to emphasize the fundamental principles to demonstrate Agile's value effectively. [35:40] - The need for new thought leaders in leadership, management, and organizational design to guide Agile practitioners in effectively leveraging data and scaling Agile practices. [36:30] - The importance of evolving beyond rigid practices to embrace Agile's adaptability. Lance uses the analogy of professional sports to illustrate the importance of adaptability, discipline, and rigor in responding to dynamic situations. [38:03] - Not doom and gloom but a chance for growth and adaptation—Brian expresses optimism and excitement for the upcoming year, seeing it as an opportunity for renewed focus and bringing value to organizations in the evolving world of product development. [40:20] - Brian extends his thanks to Lance Dacy for being on the show. And don’t forget to share your thoughts and ideas on upcoming trends in the Agile Mentors Community. [41:09] - Please send feedback and ideas for upcoming shows to [email protected]. And don’t forget to share and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. [41:14] - Happy New Year to everyone, Brian expresses excitement for the journey ahead in 2024, meeting more listeners at in-person events, and sharing more insights on future episodes of the Agile Mentors Podcast. References and resources mentioned in the show: #63: The Interplay Between Data Science and Agile with Lance Dacy #30: How to Get the Best Out of the New Year with Lance Dacy #76: Navigating Neurodiversity for High-Performing Teams with Susan Fitzell Humanocracy Certified ScrumMaster Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® #4: The Developer Role in Scrum with Sherman Gomberg DFW Scrum (Dallas, TX) | Meetup Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.  Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant's heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away.

Embark on a captivating journey through the Agile Mentors Podcast in 2023 with Brian Milner. Explore a spectrum of Agile topics, from Scrum Master challenges to leadership insights. Join Brian for insightful summaries, memorable moments, and a walk through the rich tapestry of Agile wisdom on the show. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian embarks on a retrospective journey through the standout moments of the podcast in 2023. Explore carefully curated episodes, offering solutions to the common challenges and then delving into the world of Agile beyond software development. Listen in as Brian shares insightful summaries featuring memorable moments and a diverse landscape of Agile wisdom shared by his esteemed guests. Categorized into topics like Scrum Masters, Product Owners, Developers, Agile’s use beyond software, general career advice, and leadership and coaching, this retrospective is a treasure trove of practical advice, actionable insights, and real-world experiences. Tune in for an inspiring tour through the rich tapestry of the Agile Mentors Podcast 2023 episodes. Listen Now to Discover: [01:16] - Brian introduces the episode and invites listeners to join him in a retrospective of the year's episodes, highlighting ones that may have been missed or are hidden gems worth revisiting, which he will group by listener preferences and areas of interest. [02:39] - For Scrum Masters: Brian begins discussing the first episodes tailored for Scrum Masters, kicking things off with #47, "Exploring Lean Thinking and Agile Development," featuring guest Bob Payne, who shares insights into lean thinking, a foundational principle in agile development. Brian recommends this episode for Scrum Masters aiming to enhance their understanding of Agile's fundamentals. [03:34] - Episode #52, "The Birth of Agile: How 17 Adventurous Techies Changed the World," features Agile icon Mr. Jim Highsmith, one of the authors of the Agile Manifesto. Jim provides a glimpse into the past and offers insights into the future of Agile. [04:06] - Episode #59, "Revising the Scrum Guide," features Don McGreal, who played a key role in the guide's revision, shedding light on the thinking behind the revisions. [05:31] - In Episode #62, "Effective Sprint Goals," Maarten Dalmijn delves into effective crafting techniques and the finer details of achieving success with Sprint Goals. [06:12] - In Episode #69, "Should Scrum Masters Be Technical with Allison Pollard," Allison and Brian explore the question of whether Scrum Masters should possess technical skills. If you grapple with how technical a Scrum Master should be, this episode provides valuable insights and perspectives. [06:51] - In Episode #39, Mike Cohn, an authority on user stories, shares valuable insights into the art of crafting effective user stories. [07:15] - In Episode #65 with Randy Hale titled "Unlocking Lean Portfolio Management," Brian and Randy explore the concept of moving beyond a single-team focus as a product owner, delving into the realm of lean portfolio management building upon insights shared by Bob in episode #47. [07:50] - For Product Owners: Must listen bonus from last year, Episode #22, with Roman Pichler, who shares his insights on "How to Create Helpful Product Roadmaps," addressing challenges commonly faced by product owners in dealing with the nuanced aspects of their role. The episode covers strategies to avoid pitfalls, especially the dangers of rigidly locking into scope and schedule timelines. [08:54] - For Developers: Episode #33, "Mob Programming with Woody Zuill," introduces developers to the transformative practice of mob programming. Woody Zuill, a pioneer in this way of working, shares insights and a practical and thoughtful approach that makes it worth exploring. [10:00] - In Episode #48, Brian hosts a unique episode featuring the renowned Lisa Crispin and Janet Gregory, experts in Agile testing, in a show called "Holistic Agile Testing." This episode is particularly recommended for developers specializing in testing or involved in testing within a Scrum team. [11:00] - In Episode #54, "Unlocking Agile's Power in the World of Data Science," Brian and Lance Dacy explore the intersection of Agile methodologies and data science. The popularity of this episode prompted a sequel, Episode #63, on the fusion of Agile and data science. [11:58] - In the final developer-focused episode, Carlos Nunez joins Brian to delve into the world of DevOps. Carlos, a speaker at Agile 2023, shares insights on the significance of DevOps in today's Agile landscape, emphasizing DevOps as a means of empowerment rather than gatekeeping. [12:38] - Agile Outside of Software: Episode #32 with Cort Sharp focuses on Scrum in High School Sports—specifically high school swimming. Cort shares his experience applying Scrum principles to create practice schedules and routines for the swim team he coaches, providing valuable insights for those interested in using Agile beyond the software realm. [13:24] - In #38: "Using Agile for Social and Societal Transformation with Kubair Shirazee," Kubair walks listeners through how his nonprofit employs Agile methodologies to empower micro-entrepreneurs in developing countries. The episode highlights success stories, such as a barber's journey from a rented spot to owning a professional store, demonstrating Agile's transformative impact beyond the tech industry. [14:40] - Episode #45 with Scott Dunn explores "Overcoming Agile Challenges in Regulatory Environments." This crucial topic addresses the unique challenges faced in tightly regulated sectors like government, legal, and medical professions, offering a compelling dialogue on navigating regulatory hurdles within an agile framework. [16:00] - Episode #64 features John Grant discussing "How Agile Methodologies Reshape Legal Practices." This episode reveals the transformative impact of Agile in the legal profession and offers a unique perspective on Agile as a philosophy rather than just a practice, illustrating its broader applicability beyond the software realm. [17:00] - Today's episode is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software's Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO) course. This is a two-day training course taught by one of our certified Scrum trainers that teaches you how to use the product backlog as a tool for project success and how to respond to changes in business conditions by restructuring the product backlog. For the schedule, visit the Mountain Goat Training Schedule. [17:27] - General Career Advice: #34: "I'm Trained, Now What? with Julie Chickering" addresses the post-training phase for Scrum Masters and Product Owners. Julie shares insights on taking the next steps, implementing knowledge, and finding opportunities to build a resume in Agile roles. [18:29] - In #40: "Is it Time to Go Out on Your Own? Tips and Insights with Chris Li" Brian and Chris Li discuss considerations for those at later stages of their careers contemplating the transition to independent consulting. If you're pondering whether it's time to establish your consultancy, this episode provides valuable insights and considerations to guide your decision-making process. [19:00] - In #42: "The Importance of Self-Mastery with Bob Galen," Bob emphasizes the value of constant learning, even after years of experience, highlighting the importance of staying open to new discoveries and others' experiences. This episode serves as a compelling guide for personal growth and continuous improvement. [20:28] - Episode #46 with Christina Ambers: In this episode, Christina shares insights on "How to Assess Company Culture Before Accepting a Job Offer." As the year closes and people consider new job opportunities, Christina guides listeners through the crucial step of evaluating company culture and the importance of understanding if a company truly embraces Agile values or merely pays lip service to them. [21:14] - Episode #50 celebrated the milestone of the 50th episode. Lance Dacy was on the show to discuss "Choosing Your Path: Exploring the Roles of Scrum Master and Product Owner." The episode offers guidance for individuals at crossroads, helping them decide between Scrum Master and Product Owner roles. It serves as a valuable resource for those navigating career decisions in the Agile landscape. [22:13] - Leadership and Coaching: In the Leadership and Coaching category, Episode #37 features Brad Swanson discussing "Servant Leadership, Not Spineless Leadership." Brad dispels misconceptions and offers valuable insights into the essence of servant leadership, making it a compelling resource for those interested in effective leadership approaches. [23:28] - In Episode 41, Karim Harbott explores "Cultural Transformations in Organizations." The episode delves into the challenges of changing organizational culture, emphasizing the time and effort required beyond implementing specific practices. [24:00] - In "#44: Transformations Take People with Anu Smalley", Anu highlights the often-overlooked aspect of involving people in organizational transformations, shedding light on the human dynamics that can either support or hinder the process. [24:35] - In Episode #53, "Debunking Myths in Agile Coaching with Lucy O'Keefe," we tackle the common myths surrounding Agile coaching and provide insights on unlocking excellence in Agile coaching practices. [25:01] - Episode #66 is a solo episode where Brian shares his insights into navigating team conflicts, laying the foundation for understanding and mastering the essential skill of conflict navigation. [26:00] - In Episode #68, Brian hosts Mike Hall for a discussion of "The Pros and Cons and Real-World Applications of SAFe." Whether you're new to SAFe or deeply involved, Mike's expertise provides valuable perspectives and tips for navigating this framework. [26:42] - In Episode #70, Mike Cohn joins Brian to explore "The Role of a Leader in Agile." Here, Mike shares valuable insights based on his extensive experience, offering sound advice and perspective on the crucial role of leaders in self-organizing teams. [28:10] - Brian encourages listeners, especially newcomers, to explore relevant episodes based on their roles, with the goal being to offer practical advice and solutions on specific issues rather than lengthy discussions. All episodes are available in the show notes for convenient access. [29:33] - Brian expresses gratitude to listeners for the past year, reflecting on the unique nature of podcasting and letting listeners know he cherishes the encouragement and connections made, especially at events like Agile 2023. [31:00] - What do you want to hear in 2024? What are some of the hot-button topics that haven’t been covered on the show or guests you want to hear from? Send Brian an email with your ideas. [32:28] - And don’t forget to share and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. [33:00] - We also have our Agile Mentors Community, where we have discussions about every podcast [33:24] - Wishing you a Happy Holiday Season! We'll see you early again in 2024. References and resources mentioned in the show: #47: Exploring Lean Thinking in Agile Development with Bob Payne #52: The Birth of Agile: How 17 Adventurous Techies Changed the World with Jim Highsmith #59: Revising the Scrum Guide with Don McGreal #62: Effective Sprint Goals with Maarten Dalmijn #69: Should Scrum Masters Be Technical with Allison Pollard #39: The Art of Writing User Stories with Mike Cohn #65: Unlocking Lean Portfolio Management with Randy Hale #22: How to Create Helpful Product Roadmaps with Roman Pichler #33 Mob Programming with Woody Zuill #48: Holistic Agile Testing with Lisa Crispin and Janet Gregory #54 Unlocking Agile's Power in the World of Data Science #63: The Interplay Between Data Science and Agile with Lance Dacy #71: The World of DevOps with Carlos Nunez #32: Scrum in High School Sports with Cort Sharp #38: Using Agile for Social and Societal Transformation with Kubair Shirazee #45: Overcoming the Challenges of Agile in Regulatory Environments with Scott Dunn #64: How Agile Methodologies are Reshaping Legal Practices with John Grant #34: I'm Trained, Now What? with Julie Chickering #40: Is it Time to Go Out on Your Own? Tips and Insights with Chris Li #42: The Importance of Self-Mastery with Bob Galen #46: How to Assess Company Culture Before Accepting a Job Offer with Christina Ambers #50: Choosing Your Path: Exploring the Roles of Scrum Master and Product Owner with Lance Dacy #37: Servant Leadership, Not Spineless Leadership with Brad Swanson #41: Cultural Transformation in Organizations with Karim Harbott #53: Agile Coaching: Debunking Myths and Unlocking Excellence with Lucy O'Keefe #66: Successful Strategies for Navigating Team Conflicts #68: The Pros and Cons and Real World Applications of SAFe with Mike Hall #70: The Role of a Leader in Agile with Mike Cohn #49: Celebrating One Year: A Look Back at 50 Episodes of the Agile Mentor Podcast Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

In this episode, Brian Milner and Lucy O'Keefe share their journeys to becoming Certified Scrum Trainers® (CSTs). Join them as they discuss the challenges, unexpected moments, and valuable lessons learned along the way, offering insights for those considering the CST path. Overview Explore the transformative journey to becoming a Certified Scrum Trainer® (CST) with Brian Milner and Lucy O'Keefe. From the submission process to mentorship, co-training, and the rigorous Trainer Approval Committee (TAC) interviews, they unravel the intricacies of achieving CST status. Listen in for valuable tips, reflections, and inspiration for navigating the rewarding but challenging road to becoming an elite Agile trainer. Listen Now to Discover: [01:26] - Brian introduces his guest, Lucy O'Keefe, who recently achieved her Certified Scrum Trainer® (CST). [02:53] - Today’s discussion will explore the experience of becoming a Certified Scrum Trainer® with Brian and Lucy sharing their personal experiences and insights into the process of becoming a CST. [03:44] - Lucy shares what fueled her passion for becoming a CST and how her mentor—Anu Smalley—inspired her. [05:00] - Brian discusses his decision-making process for becoming a CST and why it's important to make a decision that aligns with your instincts and career goals. [06:07] - Brian and Lucy each share their journey to becoming a CST and the steps required before being eligible to pursue the trainer certification. [08:24] - Insight into the two phases of the submission process for becoming a Certified Scrum Trainer®: the materials phase and the Trainer Approval Committee (TAC) phase and the challenges along the way. [09:38] - Brian reflects on the significance of mentorship in the journey to becoming a CST and David Hawks's crucial role in opening doors and making connections with other trainers. [09:48] - Lucy acknowledges Anu's pivotal role and emphasizes the importance of these relationships, (especially considering the challenges posed by the pandemic. [12:00] - Lucy and Brian discuss the relationship-building phase involved in co-training and mentorship. [13:22] - Lucy explains the (time-intensive) nature of co-training. [14:26] - Brian shares his approach to initiating co-trainings. [15:11] - The importance of feedback and obtaining recommendation letters—a crucial element in the submission process. [16:28] - Brian and Lucy discuss the impact of mentorship on their journey, expressing gratitude for the individuals who opened doors and provided mentorship. Brian mentions David Hawks, Kert Peterson, and Lance Dacy, emphasizing the diverse perspectives and valuable insights gained from them. [17:20] - Lucy shares about the recent special episode of her podcast where she featured her mentors. [17:55] - The value of in-person training (and some of the expenses involved). [20:09] - The challenges of training in a virtual environment. [22:18] - The limitations of virtual classes and the added value of personal interactions and shared experiences during breaks. [23:38] -The Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software and their Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® class. This is the only ACSPO that uses our interactive software so that breakout exercises are valuable and FUN! Plus, you will automatically receive 12 free months in the Agile Mentors Community. For more information, click on the Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule. [25:17] - The lengthy process of submitting materials for Certified Scrum Trainer® approval. Brian shares his personal experience. [25:35] - Lucy explains the current two-phase process for CST approval and her experience (highlighting the changes since Brian's initial submission). [26:33] - The rigorous examination process and the scrutiny applied to every aspect of the application during the fine-tooth comb review during the TAC phase of becoming a CST. [27:00] - Lucy describes the final stages of the approval process. [27:19] - Brian reflects on the changes in the CST qualification process and emphasizes the importance of following the TAC's feedback for those who reach this stage. (Advice from Chris Li) [28:49] - Resilience and persistence in the face of potential setbacks during the CST approval process. [30:42] - An in-depth explanation of the challenging TAC (Trainer Approval Community) interview process for becoming a Certified Scrum Trainer®. [32:23] - Brian shares his personal preparation strategies and reflects on the unpredictability of TAC interviews, recounting an unexpected request during his own experience. [33:32] - Lucy shares her preparation methods and also stresses the unpredictability of TAC interviews and the importance of adaptability during the process. [34:29] - Be prepared to think on your feet. Brian shares the emergency situation he faced and a mistake during his live presentation. Plus the surprising comments he received from the committee. [37:27] - Lucy shares her unexpected experience after the committee's vote. And a valuable piece of advice for listeners. [38:33] - Embarking on the CST journey involves challenges and moments of doubt, but perseverance is crucial, as success may require multiple attempts—not everyone passes on the first try. [39:43] - Becoming a CST is a subjective process and often involves multiple attempts—it doesn’t diminish your capabilities as a trainer. Brian shares the crucial aspects of the journey. [40:13] - Lucy shares why it's important not to take rejection personally, instead viewing it as a chance to identify areas for growth and become a better trainer in the end. [41:23] - Brian emphasizes the importance of viewing the CST process as a journey—being prepared for potential setbacks, highlighting the mindset of growth and continuous learning. [42:30] - Lucy adds that the rigorous Certified Scrum Trainer® requirements aim to ensure that CSTs are among the elite trainers, making the achievement more meaningful. [43:38] - The importance of embracing each chance to enhance oneself as an Agilist and a trainer. [44:09] - Brian's words of wisdom: "Hard things that are hard to do, that just makes it all the better when you achieve them.” [44:45] - Lucy’s advice: “It's not just becoming a CST. It's what you learn on your journey that really matters." [45:25] - Congratulations to Lucy for getting her CST! Brian extends his thanks to her for being on the show. For listeners interested in continuing the discussion, you can join the conversation in the Agile Mentors Community, where they also have monthly Q&A calls. [46:58] - If you found this episode useful, please share it. Send feedback and suggestions for future episodes to [email protected]. And don’t forget to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. References and resources mentioned in the show: #53: Agile Coaching: Debunking Myths and Unlocking Excellence with Lucy O'Keefe #44: Transformations Take People with Anu Smalley #17: Getting There From Here: Agile Transformations with David Hawks #12: Kanban with Kert Peterson #54: Unlocking Agile's Power in the World of Data Science with Lance Dacy #40: Is it Time to Go Out on Your Own? Tips and Insights with Chris Li Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.   Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lucy O'Keefe has over 28 years of IT experience and has worn multiple hats in the Agile world - developer, Product Owner, Scrum Master, and now, Certified Scrum Trainer® (CST) where she uses her experience to ensure each student has a great training experience.

In this episode, Brian sits down with Susan Fitzell to unravel the realm of neurodiversity in the workplace. Join them as they explore the intricacies of accommodating neurodivergent individuals, discussing the challenges they face and the strategies to foster an inclusive environment for everyone on your team. Overview Today, join host Brian Milner in an insightful conversation with Susan Fitzell as they explore the intricate world of neurodiversity within Agile environments. Listen in to gain valuable insights into the challenges neurodivergent individuals encounter and discover effective strategies, from reevaluating dress codes to adapting communication methods, to foster an inclusive workspace. Susan provides practical tips that offer a fresh perspective on accommodating diverse work and communication styles, empowering teams to collaborate successfully. Tune in to revolutionize your leadership approach by embracing the unique strengths neurodivergent team members bring, and create an environment where every individual can thrive. Listen Now to Discover: [00:00] - Brian introduces guest Susan Fitzell, a certified speaking professional, and author to discuss neurodiversity in the workplace. [03:24] - Susan explains the evolving neurodiversity language, now encompassing diverse brain wiring, including conditions like ADHD and autism, and discusses terminology challenges. [08:22] - Brian shares his own personal connection to ADHD and a story about his daughter’s autism and her triumphs. [10:40] - The challenges of diagnosing autism in females and how the criteria are based on male presentations. [15:16] - The importance of neurodiversity for Scrum Masters and leaders, and the challenges of recognizing neurodivergence, especially in females adept at masking. [19:19] - The need for flexibility in understanding neurodivergent team members, the impact of past negative experiences, and the importance of soft skills for a collaborative Agile team. [21:33] - Susan addresses the high unemployment rate (80%) among neurodivergent adults, especially autistic individuals, and highlights challenges in interviewing. [24:22] -The importance of recognizing and leveraging the unique skills of neurodivergent individuals on Agile teams, and acknowledging their specialized contributions. [25:41] - Brian shares a study that indicates young autistic individuals choose computer science degrees at three times the general public's rate, emphasizing the likelihood of having neurodivergent individuals on your teams. [26:04] - The Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software and their Certified Scrum Master Training Class. Despite the name, it's not just for Scrum Masters, it's designed for anyone who wants to understand Scrum and add value to any team. For more information click on the Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule. [27:41] - Susan addresses accommodations in the workplace for neurodivergent individuals. [28:10] - Brian and Susan discuss specific aspects scrum masters should consider for accommodating neurodivergent individuals within team environments. [31:30] - Susan shares insights on sensory sensitivities and the challenges of conforming to things like dress codes for neurodivergent individuals. [34:16] - The significance of recognizing and accommodating sensory preferences for better productivity. [35:27] - The positive impact of remote work on neurodivergent individuals, allowing them to create a comfortable work environment tailored to their needs. [37:35] - Susan emphasizes the importance of understanding team members as individuals to recognize and embrace the diversity of strengths and challenges in their teams. [40:19] - Supporting neurodivergent team members through workspace recommendations, emotional check-ins, and communication preferences. [41:04] - Brian mentions Susan’s Neurodiversity in the Workplace and "The Autism at Work Playbook" as valuable resources. [43:36] - Brian thanks Susan for her insights. You can connect with Susan and there are more resources at her website at https://susanfitzell.com/, or by sending her an email. [44:19] - If this topic was impactful to you and you want to continue the discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community where we have a topic discussion for each podcast episode. [45:18] - Please share this episode with others if you found it useful. Send feedback and suggestions for future episodes to [email protected]. And don’t forget to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. References and resources mentioned in the show: Susan Fitzell Neurodiversity in the Workplace "Autism at Work Playbook" Autism in Heels Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Susan Fitzell, M.Ed., CSP, is a renowned neurodiversity speaker, coach, and consultant with over 30 years of experience. Specializing in training neurodivergent thinkers, including those with dyslexia, autism, ADD, and ADHD, Susan is a trusted expert and author of 16 books. With a holistic approach and dedication to creating competitive learning cultures, she collaborates with organizations globally to maximize the potential of neurodivergent individuals.

In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, join host Brian Milner in a heartfelt Thanksgiving reflection filled with gratitude to listeners of the show and a sneak peek into what's coming up on the podcast. Overview With gratitude at the forefront, Agile Mentors Podcast host Brian Milner reflects on the year's journey toward agility by extending heartfelt appreciation for listeners of the show and their contributions and dedication to making workplaces better. Listen in as Brian shares the power of gratitude and recognizing those who challenge the norms for the sake of improvement and go the extra mile to get the job done. Tune in for an insightful Thanksgiving message, sprinkled with valuable tips for team appreciation and building a positive culture within the Agile community. Listen Now to Discover: [00:45] - Brian welcomes listeners to this special Thanksgiving week show. [01:22] - Brian shares his thanks for those he and Mike Cohn were able to meet at Agile 2023. [02:09] - Gratitude for the growing list of ideas for upcoming shows. Brian explains the backlog process of the Agile Mentors Podcast from Mountain Goat Software to ensure a thoughtful and tailored exploration of agile themes. [02:30] - Praise goes a long way— Brian shares his ideas for finding opportunities to say thank you to your teams. [03:52] - Advice for a mix of public and private appreciation. [04:33] - Cultivating a positive organizational culture —it's a complex and time-consuming process. Brian shares his advice for listeners who want to improve the work environment. [05:52] - Praise for the imperfect solutions. [06:19] - A Holiday break and then a whole new slate of episodes of the Agile Mentors Podcast for 2024. If you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email and don’t forget to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts or your favorite platform so you never miss an episode. References and resources mentioned in the show: Previous Episodes of the Agile Mentors Podcast from Mountain Goat Software Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, we dive deep into the fascinating world of neurohacking with Ted Wallace. Discover how you can unlock your brain's superpower to accelerate your learning and personal development journey! Overview Are you ready to revolutionize the way you learn, work, and lead? In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast join Brian and his guest, author Ted Wallace as they delve into the fascinating world of using neurohacking to unleash the potential of your brain. Whether you want to change your habits, learn a new skill faster, or just increase your personal and professional growth, listen in for valuable insights that can help you harness neuroplasticity to tap into your brain's incredible potential. Listen Now to Discover: [01:02] - Brian introduces his guest, Ted Wallace, an Enterprise Agile Coach at the Principal Financial Group. Ted has also co-authored a series of books including Total Brain Coaching and Self Empower with his father, Dr. Robert Keith Wallace. Today’s show is a deep dive into the concept of neurohacking and its application in personal and organizational development and learning. [01:22] - What is Total Brain Coaching? [04:48] - How understanding the connection between neuroscience and learning can help individuals approach situations and come up with effective strategies. [06:10] - Ted discusses the research findings from his book 'Neurohacks' which explores ways to help individuals change their habits for faster learning. [07:32] - The importance of individual growth in driving overall organizational and societal change. [08:54] - How simple neurohacks such as getting enough sleep, can have a positive impact on mental health and productivity while networking and collaboration help amplify intelligence and foster innovation. [11:39] - We all have different learning styles. Ted walks listeners through the different learning styles and how applying personalized learning can lead to faster adoption and habit change resulting in improved team performance and adaptability. [13:15] - This podcast episode is made possible by our sponsor, Mountain Goat Software. The company’s Scrum certification classes were developed with the assistance of an instructional designer for an online learning experience that is both interactive and engaging. For more information visit Certified Scrum Training, Agile Training by Mike Cohn. [14:23] - The key elements in building effective habits for increased productivity. [16:35] - Why creating an environment of psychological safety is essential in improving learning outcomes. [20:51] - How different levels of adoption, from self-coaching to group dynamics, can accelerate value delivery. [21:53] - Maslow's Hierarchy and for effective meetings. [22:55] - How the Knevin Model and Agile practices can help solve hard problems elegantly. [26:02] - How implementing neurohacks can improve the speed of learning. [27:36] - Ted walks listeners through some neurohacks that help improve learning. [28:52] - Neuroplasticity is everyone's superpower but what’s the secret to developing new pathways in the brain? [33:17] - You can connect with Ted by visiting his website at Total Brain Coaching and for further learning check out his books. [35:49] - If you want to discuss this topic further join the Agile Mentors Community and jump into the discussion there. [36:22] - Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email and don’t forget to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts or your favorite platform so you never miss an episode. References and resources mentioned in the show: Total Brain Coaching Total Brain Coaching: A Holistic System of Effective Habit Change For the Individual, Team, and Organization 16 Super Biohacks for Longevity: Shortcuts to a Healthier, Happier, Longer Life The Coherence Code: How to Maximize Your Performance And Success in Business - For Individuals, Teams, and Organizations Self Empower: Using Self-Coaching, Neuroadaptability, and Ayurveda Trouble In Paradise: How To Deal With People Who Push Your Buttons Using Total Brain Coaching The Backwards Brain Bicycle - Smarter Every Day 133 Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Ted Wallace is currently an Agile Coach at Principal Financial Group. He is a certified Scrum Master Professional (CSM, CSPO, CSP, CTC) and a registered corporate coach (RCC) with thousands of hours of coaching sessions. He’s also the author of several books, including Total Brain Coaching and Self Empower.

Discover the mindset and courage it takes to be truly agile. Listen in as Ryan Gottfredson sits down with Brian to explore the four common fears that hinder agility. In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Ryan Gottfredson, an expert on the psychology of agility and author of the bestselling book "Success Mindsets," sits down with Brian to explore the four common fears that hinder agility. Listen in as Brian and Ryan walk listeners through examples of how these fears manifest in the workplace, sharing valuable insights on how recognizing and reshaping your mindset can lead to more effective agile, and more personal and professional growth. Listen Now to Discover: [01:18] - Brian introduces his guest, Ryan Gottfredson, a leadership and management professor at the College of Business and Economics at California State University, Fullerton to walk us through his talk from Agile 2023 in Orlando called The Four Fears that Undermine Agility. [06:07] - Brian reflects on the evolving understanding of agility as one progresses in their Agile journey, emphasizing the importance of interpersonal dynamics and human psychology in Agile work. [07:47] - The mindset and courage it takes to be truly agile. [09:23] - Ryan offers up some indicators of agility. [10:11] - Ryan introduces the four fears that undermine agility. [12:02] - How fear of failure and reluctance to try new things can lead to resistance to change, ultimately undermining agility. [12:16] -The importance of leadership in fostering agility with an example of Satya Nadella at Microsoft. [15:03] - Ryan discusses the first fear inhibiting agility, the fear of failure, and how it can significantly impede agility. [15:27] - The conversation then delves into the second fear, the fear of being wrong, and how this fear can obstruct agility by hindering the acceptance of diverse perspectives. [17:03] - The Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software and their Certified Scrum Training Classes. These classes were designed and developed by the Co-founder of the Scrum Alliance, Mike Cohn. Mike taught his first Scrum class in 1997, and since then, more than 24,000 people have chosen to train with Mountain Goat Software. To join them, click on the Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule. [18:13] - Is your expert mindset holding you back? Brian and Ryan explore the importance of shifting from an expert mindset to a truth-seeking mindset to foster agility by being open to the possibility of being wrong. [20:04] - Brian shares a personal experience related to the "no estimates" movement.v [21:28] - The value of conversations that focus on embracing the complexities of a topic. [22:09] - Ryan introduces the third fear inhibiting agility, the fear of having problems. Ryan shares an analogy of reacting to a mouse like it's a bear to illustrate his point. [24:29] - The "window of tolerance" for handling problems effectively. [25:43] - Ryan explains the fourth fear that hinders agility, the fear of getting passed up or not being recognized. [26:22] - The difference between a limited mindset, and a more open mindset that acknowledges the value of giving and sharing. [27:10] - Ryan shares a real-life example of an executive who initially shut down his employees' ideas to keep from being viewed as dispensable. [28:23] - Ryan reflects on the prevalence of these fears in organizations, and how they can collectively hinder agility. [30:03] - Ryan shares the four mindsets related to the four fears: fixed vs. growth, closed vs. open, prevention vs. promotion, and inward vs. outward. [31:33] - Brian thanks Ryan for sharing his insights on the show. You can find Ryan’s mindset assessment on his website, Ryan Gottfredson. You can also find his book, "Success Mindsets," or take his FREE Personal Mindset Assessment on his website or connect with him via LinkedIn. [36:45] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. And if you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. References and resources mentioned in the show: Ryan Gottfredson Success Mindsets by Ryan Gottfredson Ryan Gottfredson on LinkedIn Ryan's talk from Agile 2023 Ryan Gottfredson's FREE Personal Mindset Assessment #33 Mob Programming with Woody Zuill Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ● Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ● Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Ryan Gottfredson, Ph.D., is a renowned mindset expert, author, and consultant. Through his work at California State University-Fullerton, his talk called, The Four Fears that Undermine Agility, and his bestselling book "Success Mindsets," Ryan helps organizations and leaders thrive through mindset improvement.

Today, Brian sits down with Melissa Boggs to explore the parallels between roller skating and workplace challenges as she shares her four-stage framework for personal and professional growth. Overview Today, on the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian sits down with Melissa Boggs, host of the Wild Hearts at Work podcast to explore the parallels between roller skating and workplace challenges. Listen in as Melissa shares her experiences in the rink and in the workplace as she introduces her four-stage framework for personal and professional growth and the essential mental preparation required to embrace audacity and approach challenges with courage and curiosity. Listen Now to Discover: [01:33] - Brian introduces Melissa Boggs, a keynote speaker, leadership coach, and the host of the Wild Hearts at Work podcast to discuss moving from caution to courage. [03:57] - Melissa shares where the resistance to Agile concepts comes from and the inspiration for the Wild Hearts at Work podcast. [05:44] - The parallels between Melissa's roller skating journey and workplace challenges and how the distinct stages of personal and professional growth inspired her talk, "From Cautious to Courageous: A Live Roller-Skating Journey." [06:47] - Melissa introduces the fourth container, audacious, emphasizing the willingness to make dramatic and transformative moves to make major changes. [08:05] - The true meaning of audacity. [09:03] - Melissa walks listeners through the journey from cautious to audacious by fearlessly facing challenges that are bigger than you. [11:17] - The Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software. If you want to get your Certified Scrum Product Owner Training or another certified training, here is the Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule. [11:45] - How to distinguish between a growth opportunity or genuine danger. [13:58] - Melissa emphasizes the importance of the "Curious" stage in her framework, to tap into your intuition when transitioning from cautious to courageous. [14:30] - Melissa shares a specific example from her skating experience, highlighting the role of curiosity in addressing her caution and fear when attempting a challenging move. [15:06] - Melissa shares the elusive puzzle piece that was the final piece of her framework to show up, shedding newfound clarity on the journey from caution to audacity. [17:19] - “Danger Will Robinson.” The importance of exploring the reasons behind discomfort and discerning when it's a valid response. [20:51] - Identifying the true source of a fear to gain control over it—the role of reason in guiding human actions. [22:02] - The danger of remaining perpetually in the caution container. [22:51] - Brian shares a pivotal moment in his journey to become a CST (Certified Scrum Trainer) and the importance of acknowledging setbacks and mistakes when they occur in order to move forward. [25:08] - How jam skating can help you learn to fall gracefully. Melissa underscores the mental preparation involved in facing challenges. [28:14] - Brian sends a special thanks to Melissa Boggs. To continue the discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. [29:07] – We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. References and resources mentioned in the show: Wild Hearts at Work podcast Melissa Boggs Melissa Boggs on LinkedIn The Audacity of Hope: Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Melissa Boggs is an Agile advocate with experience serving on the Boards of Scrum Alliance and Agile Denver and serving as a keynote speaker at several global conferences. As a Certified Enterprise Coach and the host of the Wild Hearts at Work podcast, she specializes in bridging generational, cultural, and societal gaps to enhance workplace engagement.

In this episode, Brian dives into the world of DevOps with guest Carlos Nunez. Listen in as they explore the origins, debunk myths, and unlock the potential of DevOps in optimizing software delivery on the Agile Mentors Podcast. Overview On this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, join Brian as he welcomes guest Carlos Nunez, to explore the origins, debunk myths, and unlock the potential of DevOps in optimizing software delivery. Listen in to explore DevOps, its tools, and its profound impact on fostering effective communication and collaboration between development and operations teams. Listen Now to Discover: [01:18] - Brian welcomes his special guest Carlos Nunez, a DevOps consultant at VMWare, to discuss DevOps and its relationship with Agile. [02:40] - Carlos introduces the concept of DevOps and the need for collaboration between development and operations and the importance of both sides understanding each other's work to improve communication and efficiency in software delivery. [03:36] - What DevOps is not. Brian and Carlos discuss the various aspects of development, testing, and deployment in software development. [04:25] – Carlos shares a common misapplication of DevOps. [05:35] - Fostering a culture of communication and collaboration rather than using technical knowledge to obstruct progress and create bottlenecks. [05:48] - Brian shares the core concept of DevOps with the agile mindset. [06:20] - Brian asks Carlos why DevOps was developed and what can be gained when teams advance their DevOps practices. [06:30] - Carlos discusses the origin of DevOps, (hint: it started at an Agile conference). [07:05] - How DevOps can enhance team operations by fostering better communication and collaboration between developers and operators. [08:35] - The importance of looking at software and operating systems holistically. [09:54] - Brian expands on the importance of breaking down rigid skill boundaries to work more efficiently to enhance teamwork and results. [10:40] - Carlos discusses the common issue of Scrum Masters who only focus on facilitating ceremonies without understanding the product aspect. [11:57] - Are Scrum Masters still effective? [12:49] - Brian delves into the relationship between DevOps and Agile, addressing occasional pushback from DevOps practitioners who claim that DevOps and Agile don't work well together. [13:16] - Carlos shares insights from his talk, where he explored criticisms of Agile from DevOps practitioners, where some of the criticism originates from and his thoughts on the negative perception. [15:15] - Are you thinking about getting certified as a Scrub Master? If so, you will want to check out the resources and training options with our sponsor, Mountain Goat Software. They run certification classes every week. Each course comes with 4 hours of training videos from Mike Cohn and includes twelve months of membership in the Agile Mentors Community. You can find the schedule here. [16:34] - Brian asks about the categories of software that people use in DevOps. [16:41] - Carlos discusses DevOps tools and approaches, categorizing them into two ways: traditional Agile tooling and pragmatic programmer-type tools. [18:19] - Carlos highlights the significance of behavior-driven development (BDD) as the second bridge between DevOps and the broader business while noting that BDD tools are generally user-friendly and can help enhance collaboration between different roles in the software development process. [19:20] - How test-driven development (TDD) forms a bridge between developers and operators, allowing both to understand how to write tests, get them to pass, and refactor—like the developer's "red, green, refactor" process. [20:25] - Carlos discusses Jira, a widely recognized (and polarizing) Agile tool, and the two reasons he prefers it. [22:19] - Carlos discusses how the concept of story points can sometimes turn into person-hours. He emphasizes that the key is to focus on addressing the process to make it more effective and user-friendly. [23:12] - Why story trackers are crucial for operations teams. [23:55] - Brian offers his take on Jira. [24:35] - Carlos highlights the importance of CI/CD build systems and value stream mapping to understand the path from inception to production. [26:31] - Carlos highlights that having DevOps tools is important but not sufficient. [27:37] - How people with DevOps skills add value. [28:12] - You can find Carlos’ teaching on LinkedIn Learning, including DevOps Foundations, Kubernetes fundamentals, his Docker Essential Training Online Class, and more. [31:07] - Brian offers a big shout-out to Carlos for coming on the show. If you want to connect with Carlos, you can email him here. [32:33] - If you like this more technical episode, email us and let us know. As always we’d like to invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. [33:49] - Brian sends a special thank you to all Agile Mentors Podcast listeners. References and resources mentioned in the show: Email Carlos Nunez LinkedIn Learning Courses By Carlos Nunez Carlos’ DevOps and Agile Slides From the Agile 2023 Conference Agile Mentors Podcast from Mountain Goat Software Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Carlos Nunez is a DevOps consultant at VMWare, who enjoys making engineering and product development in complex environments fun, fast, and profitable through DevOps, everything-as-code, and clean software. You can find his training courses on LinkedIn Learning.

Today, Brian sits down with Mike Cohn, the CEO of Mountain Goat Software to talk about how leaders can use agile concepts in order to keep their team operating at its best. Overview Today, on the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian sits down with Mike Cohn, the CEO of Mountain Goat Software to discuss the role of a leader role in Agile. Listen in as Mike and Brian share their combined years of knowledge to help leaders use agile concepts to avoid the pitfalls of becoming a manager “behaving badly.” Listen Now to Discover: [01:08] - Brian introduces the show and his special guest Mike Cohn here to talk about the role of a leader in the Agile space. [01:53] - "Don't command, create a culture." Mike shares the difference between Agile leaders and traditional leadership. [02:59] - The concern about a resurgence of ‘old-school’ leadership and the concerns that brings. [04:48] - Mike shares how leaders can use agile concepts like self-organization, setting goals, choosing team members, and defining constraints in order to keep the team operating at its best. (Resource: Wicked Problems, Righteous Solutions: A Catologue of Modern Engineering Paradigms). [06:26] - Brian shares options for management to allow teams to figure out how to address problems as a team. [08:23] - Trust but verify isn't ideal—Mike shares why it’s better to manage by exception, i.e. giving trust upfront and asking questions later. [11:18] - Did you know the Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software? Whether you're looking to get Certified Scrum Master Training or would like ​​Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® training, Mountain Goat has plenty of options. To see everything Mountain Goat has to offer visit Mountain Goat Software. [12:01] - Delving into the complexity of the relationship between leadership and employees, especially when it comes to trust, self-organization, and planning. [12:48] - Mike introduces the “Cone of Uncertainty” concept, sharing that having a plan is not a problem over any horizon, (over three days, three months, or three years) but managers need to accept that the level of precision in the plan should match the timeframe. [14:23] - Mike refers to an article from Harvard Business Review that highlights the difference in scrutiny between product development deadlines and sales projections, and the need for a more balanced and flexible approach in evaluating both areas. [16:05] - Language and terminology shape our perception—how the shift from "estimating" to "forecasting" helps facilitate the recognition of uncertainty in future predictions. [19:12] - Mike shares an anecdote about a client in Kansas City, who wanted him to use the word "forecast" instead of "estimate." [20:31] - The importance of assessing metric application in a leadership context. [21:06] - Mike highlights the danger of using "velocity" as a metric for team performance, explaining how subtle pressure on teams can lead to estimate inflation, rendering velocity less reliable for forecasting and more as a tool to pressure (and demotivate) teams. [24:12] - Brian encourages leaders to reflect on the motivation behind using things like velocity as a metric to measure teams and how this relates to the principles of self-organization in Agile. [25:22] - How a lack of proper training during role transitions can lead to managers ‘behaving badly,’ despite well-intentioned actions. [26:45] - A special thank you to Mike Cohn for joining us and sharing his knowledge. If you're interested in further discussions on this topic join us in the Agile Mentors Community where you can access exclusive content, participate in discussions, and attend Q&A calls with Mike and me. [27:50] - As always we’d like to invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. References and resources mentioned in the show: Wicked Problems, Righteous Solutions: A Catologue of Modern Engineering Paradigms Agile Mentors Podcast from Mountain Goat Software Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Mike Cohn, CEO of Mountain Goat Software, is a passionate advocate for agile methodologies. Co-founder of Agile Alliance and Scrum Alliance, he thrives on helping companies succeed with Agile and witnessing its transformative impact on individuals' careers. Mike resides in Northern Idaho with his family, two Havanese dogs, and an impressive hot sauce collection.

Today, Brian sits down with Allison Pollard on the Agile Mentors Podcast to discuss the age-old question: Should Scrum Masters be technical? Tune in for Allison’s insights during this thought-provoking episode. Overview Today, on the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian sits down with Allison Pollard to tackle the age-old question: "Should Scrum Masters be technical?" Allison shares her extensive experience with this topic and the importance of a clear definition of “technical” within the Scrum Master role. Allison candidly discusses the biases and assumptions associated with the expectation of Scrum Masters being technical and the potential impact in the workplace. Plus, she shares her advice for a more open and inclusive approach to accommodate diversity within the Agile community. Listen in for a thought-provoking discussion that uncovers new perspectives and insights on Scrum Masters' technical expertise to help you find the right fit for your team. Listen Now to Discover: [01:22] - Brian welcomes Allison Pollard to the Agile Mentors podcast. [03:31] - Alison introduces the topic of the show, which is whether Scrum Masters should be technical, her experience with the question of Scrum Masters' technical expertise, and the need for a clear definition of what "technical" means in this context. [06:12] - What’s more important, technical skills or soft skills? [07:55] - Alison shares an interview experience where a Scrum Master candidate underestimated the importance of technical debt, highlighting the need for Scrum Masters to be familiar with these concepts. [11:41] - The importance of a willingness to adapt and grow. [11:56] - The biases and assumptions associated with the expectation of Scrum Masters being technical and how that can create a division in the workplace. [13:12] - The importance of acknowledging the limitations of personal experience. [14:46] - The history of Scrum Masters as servant leaders and the impact this had on the role. [20:49] - Brian shares the importance of understanding the business value of Agile practices. [21:50] - Allison shares the importance of asking questions to gauge the comfort level of potential Scrum Masters in discussing various topics to determine how they will work with your team. [22:32] - How biases and implicit assumptions related to Scrum Masters can affect hiring and promotions. [22:51] - Today's episode is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software's Certified Product Owner course, a two-day training course that teaches you how to use the product backlog as a tool for project success. For more information, check out the Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule. [24:04] - Allison shares the importance of balancing servant leadership and focusing on tasks that help the team achieve results, rather than performing non-value-added tasks that hinder effectiveness. [26:28] - The value of building personal relationships during off times. [27:45] - They discuss biases and the importance of recognizing implicit biases when evaluating Scrum Masters' performance and effectiveness. [29:39] - Helping diverse individuals succeed in Agile roles. The challenges people face due to biases and the need for systemic changes to better accommodate diversity in the Agile community. [30:58] - Did you know recognizing impostor syndrome may be a sign that you are not an impostor? Plus, advice for overcoming imposter syndrome. [32:37] - You can connect with Allison on LinkedIn or at Helping Improve LLC to find out more about the training and coaching she offers. [33:05] - A huge thank you to Allison for being on the show. Did you know you can find all of the show notes and resources for all of the Agile Mentor Podcast on the Mountain Goat Software website? We had a question about the information shared on the recent show with Lance Dacy, you can find the show notes and resources from that show here. [34:29] - If you enjoyed this episode share it with others and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. Did you know we discuss every episode of the podcast in the Agile Mentors Community? Join us (a 12-month membership is included with any training class from Mountain Goat Software) and post your questions there. As always, if you have feedback or ideas for the show, just send us an email. References and resources mentioned in the show: Allison Pollard on LinkedIn Helping Improve LLC Helping Improve on LinkedIn Agile Mentors Podcast from Mountain Goat Software “#54: Unlocking Agile's Power in the World of Data Science with Lance Dacy” Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Allison Pollard, the co-owner of Helping Improve LLC, is a coach, consultant, and trainer who brings the power of relationship systems intelligence to go beyond tasks, roles, and frameworks to create energy for change. As Program Director for Women in Agile's mentorship program, she champions diversity and amplifies women's voices, contributing to the agile community's growth. Allison is a Certified Professional Co-Active Coach and a seasoned speaker at global conferences, including Scrum Gatherings and the Agile Alliance Agile20xx conferences.

Join Brian on the Agile Mentors Podcast as he sits down with Mike Hall for a refreshing perspective on SAFe (Scaled Agile Framework), its real-world applications, and the hidden costs of a one-size-fits-all approach.   Overview Today, on the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian delves into the intricacies of SAFe (Scaled Agile Framework) with guest Mike Hall of Agile Authority. Listen in as Mike shares the four essential steps for effective SAFe implementation, the hidden costs of a one-size-fits-all method, and why it's crucial to listen, understand, and honor the dynamics within your unique organization. Tune in to gain a profound understanding of SAFe and how to make it work for your team. Listen Now to Discover: [01:21]- Brian Milner introduces his guest, Mike Hall, Founder and chief evangelist of Agile Authority to discuss the Scaled Agile Framework (SAFe). [02:41] - Mike shares his background and perspective on SAFe and clarifies this is not a SAFe bashing session. [05:07] - The importance of lean thinking and continuous improvement. [06:13] - Mike shares the definition of SAFe and its core components, and popularity in Agile transformations. [09:08] - The pros and cons of SAFe: Mike explains why SAFe appeals to executives and its popularity in addressing agile scaling needs. [13:06] - Brian and Mike acknowledge the criticism of SAFe but discuss the appeal of its "connective tissue" concept. [14:04] - Mike highlights some of the pros of SAFe, including the accessible resources and low risk. But also shares some potential issues like the importance of value alignment and the comprehensive yet generic nature of SAFe. [16:53] - Improving SAFe: Brian asks Mike which aspects of SAFe he believes could be enhanced. [17:19] - Mike discusses the issue of considerable overhead and complexity, especially in the full configuration mode. [18:35] - In SAFe there are six new team roles that require training investments along with the addition of 17 new recurring meetings (events) in SAFe and 31 new artifacts. [20:51] - Mike discusses the extensive elements of SAFe, underlining new roles, meetings, and artifacts while emphasizing the need to evaluate their relevance for specific organizations. [23:51] - Customizing SAFe to reduce waste and overhead, Mike raises the question of a more efficient way to leverage lean and agile concepts in a fit-for-purpose approach. [28:45] - A word from our sponsor: Mountain Goat Software's Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® class teaches you the skills you need to increase your confidence, credibility, and value as a product owner with interactive software that makes the breakout exercises both valuable and fun. You’ll also receive 12 months of membership in the Agile Mentors Community. [29:31] - Mike introduces the concept of simple scaling, and its focus on four common-sense steps to consider—with the flexibility to discard steps that don't apply. [30:53] - Brian mentions #17: Getting There From Here: Agile Transformations with David Hawks. [31:10] - Step 1: Start with a Clear Business Objective: Mike shares the importance of beginning with a well-defined objective. [32:19] - Step 2: Observe, Understand, and Honor the Past: The most overlooked step, Mike shares why skipping it can be counterproductive. [33:28] - Step 3: Align to the Flow of Value. [34:28] - Step 4: Apply Targeted Agile Principles and Practices: Mike shares how specific Agile practices can be chosen to align with the business objective, like improving product quality. [34:38] - Mike highlights Agile practices that enhance product quality, (such as working at a sustainable pace, shift-left testing, test-driven development, code reviews, and sprint reviews) and help reduce errors. [35:09] - Mike discusses the concepts that can be used to align with the business objective of faster time-to-market. [36:41] - Brian and Mike discuss the debate on targeted vs. mass deployment, the key factors driving this debate, and how Agile principles and practices can help. [38:07] - Brian shares the significance of choosing the right guide for Agile transformations, emphasizing the importance of philosophy alignment. [39:00] - Why every framework should come with a big red asterisk in the fine print. [40:36] - Brian shares an analogy related to taking medicine, highlighting the importance of a targeted approach for organizations. [43:01] - You can connect with Mike Hall, on the Agile Authority website. [43:59] - Did you know we discuss every episode of the podcast in the Agile Mentors Community? Join us (a 12-month membership is included with any training class from Mountain Goat Software) and post your questions there. Additionally, if you enjoyed this episode share it with others and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. As always, if you have feedback or ideas for the show, just email [email protected]. References and resources mentioned in the show: Agile Authority #17: Getting There From Here: Agile Transformations with David Hawks Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Certified ScrumMaster Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Mike Hall, of Agile Authority is a seasoned Agile Coach/Trainer, who brings 20+ years of Agile experience, specializing in software development and technology leadership. With a rich repertoire of Agile and Scaled Agile certifications, including CSP, CSM, CSPO, and SPC6, he's a key player in Agile transformations.

Join Brian on the Agile Mentors Podcast as he sits down with Dr. Ryne Sherman from Hogan Assessments to delve into the world of personality assessments. Tune in to discover how understanding individual strengths and motivations can help organizations make better hiring and team-building decisions. Overview What role does personality play in creating successful team dynamics? Today, on the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian sits down with Dr. Ryne Sherman, of Hogan Assessments, and the co-host of The Science of Personality Podcast for an in-depth discussion on how personality assessments can be used to revolutionize the way organizations make informed choices in hiring and assembling teams. Dr. Sherman walks us through the diverse landscape of personality assessments, shedding light on their strengths and limitations. Then, he shares the unique approach embraced by Hogan Assessments to unveil profound insights into the members of your team and how they will work together. Listen in to discover how gaining insight into the unique strengths and motivations of individuals within a team can cultivate greater unity, boost productivity, and create a more positive work environment. Listen Now to Discover: [01:15] - Brian introduces his guest, Dr. Ryne Sherman, Chief Science Officer at Hogan Assessments, and co-host of The Science of Personality Podcast to discuss the role of personality in team dynamics. [03:19] - How Hogan Assessments helps organizations make better hiring and team-building decisions [06:00] - The risk of hiring based on “likeability.” [08:28] - How scientific assessments help ensure fair and objective hiring. [10:03] - The historical evolution of personality assessments. [14:31] - Dr. Sherman shares how the personality assessment process works. [15:38] - There are many different types of personality assessments, and each serves a specific purpose. Dr. Sherman shares how those provided by Hogan Assessments are designed to offer more nuanced insights. [19:27] - A word from our sponsor: Mountain Goat Software has designed our Certified Scrum Master Class as a two-day class that covers the fundamental principles of Scrum and more. Visit the Mountain Goat Software training schedule to learn more and schedule your training. [20:08] - What personality tests actually measure. [23:05] - Are you faking it? The biggest concern with most personality tests is they focus on the impressions individuals aim to make rather than the actual behavior. Dr. Sherman explains. [26:37] - How assessments provide valuable insights into behavior, possible triggers, and suitability for specific roles. [27:45] - How assessments aim to accommodate neurodiversity and cultural differences. [32:34] - Why understanding individual strengths and motivations is essential for team cohesion and productivity. [34:05] - Dr. Sherman shares the importance of transparency, and why you shouldn’t shy away from both positive and negative feedback to drive personal and team development. [38:47] - You can connect with Dr. Ryne Sherman at Hogan Assessments, or tune into their podcast, The Science of Personality Podcast [40:00] - If you enjoyed this fascinating episode share it with others and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. For further discussion on personality assessments join the Agile Mentors Community and post your questions there. As always, if you have feedback or ideas for the show, just email [email protected]. References and resources mentioned in the show: Hogan Assessments The Science of Personality Podcast Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Ryne Sherman is a Doctor of Psychology and the Chief Science Officer at Hogan Assessments and also the co-host of The Science of Personality Podcast. Dr. Sherman has devoted his career to researching the interplay between situational factors and personality traits. His work at Hogan Assessments aims to assist organizations in comprehending the role of personality in the workplace.

Join us on the Agile Mentors Podcast as Brian unveils the secrets to resolving conflicts to achieve win-win outcomes in your Agile teams. Overview Whether you're a Scrum Master, Product Owner, or an Agile coach, conflicts are inevitable and can become messy if not navigated successfully. Today, on the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian guides us through various conflict types and shares techniques for effectively managing and resolving team conflicts. These methods encompass the Thomas-Kilmann Instrument (TKI) framework, facilitative listening, and the use of team agreements to validate differences, ensuring that everyone feels safe and acknowledged, creating win-win solutions for all involved. Listen Now to Discover: [02:29] - How we handle conflict on our teams. [02:55] - Conflict is necessary for teams to challenge each other and make better decisions (Chernobyl disaster example). [04:38] - Conflict is inevitable and can take various forms, including messy and sticky situations that are not always desirable. [04:56] - Brian shares a past conflict management failure when as a Scrum Master, he inadequately handled a conflict between two team members, leading to a breakdown in communication and a loss of mutual respect. [09:15] - The need for Scrum Masters to develop corporate counselor skills, such as emotional intelligence and empathy, to effectively counsel and navigate conflicts within teams. [10:44] - Rational vs. Emotional conflict and the importance of shifting the focus back to the rational side for productive conflict resolution. [12:15] - Brian shares the difference between constructive and destructive conflict and the signs of each. [13:34] - The three types of conflicts in a team: task, relationship, and process conflicts and why it’s vital to understand the differences between these types of conflicts in order to navigate them effectively. [16:20] - Mountain Goat Software has designed our Scrum Certification classes to combine the best learning with the best engagement. If you want to see it in action, check out our training pages at Mountain Goat Software today. [17:22] - Each person has a default way of responding to conflict. You can identify your own response style using the Thomas-Kilmann Instrument (TKI) framework which divides responses into five categories: competing, collaborating, compromising, avoiding, and accommodating. [18:32] - Competing involves prioritizing one's own position but it can be justifiable in certain situations. [19:55] - Collaborating aims for win-win solutions through creative problem-solving, especially in scenarios with conflicting preferences. [21:01] - The third C offers an acceptable solution that satisfies both individual's concerns. [21:34] - Avoiding, marked by its unassertive and uncooperative nature, ultimately striving to sweep the conflict under the rug. [22;42] - Accommodating prioritizes the relationship above all else, willingly setting aside one's own stance to adopt the opposing point of view. [23:40] - Your default conflict resolution approach isn't necessarily bad; it can be effective in certain situations. Brian offers tips for recognizing and responding to these approaches in conflict situations. [25:08] - Psychological safety in a team is vital for healthy conflict resolution. Brian explains what that means and how to build it within your team. [28:10] - How team agreements can help prevent conflicts from turning destructive. [28:40] - Putting ground rules in place on your team so that when conflict occurs, you can navigate it successfully. [30:42] - Facilitative listening helps address problems without attacking personalities. Brian shares his techniques to assist others in hearing. Legitimizing differences by acknowledging and validating opposing viewpoints can help resolve conflicts within a team. [32:29] - Overlooking human dynamics can lead to team failure but legitimizing differences helps everyone feel safe and heard. [35:11] - If you enjoyed the episode, the best way to support us is to share it with others and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. If you have feedback or ideas for the show, just email [email protected]. For further discussion join the Agile Mentors Community where we discuss each podcast episode. References and resources mentioned in the show: Thomas-Kilmann Instrument (TKI) Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenter is: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

Join Brian and his guest Randy Hale as they delve into the world of Lean Portfolio Management to drive Agile transformations and make informed decisions for greater business success. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian sits down with Agile Transformation Coach Randy Hale to discuss Lean Portfolio Management. Listen in as they explore strategies for navigating organizational culture, redefining metrics, and addressing uncertainty to make informed business decisions and drive successful Agile transformations. Listen Now to Discover: [01:18] - Brian Milner welcomes Randy Hale of Agile Velocity to the Agile Mentors podcast to discuss Lean Portfolio Management. [02:40] - Randy shares the definition of Lean Portfolio Management. [04:07] - The first steps to implement Lean Portfolio Management. [06:41] - How to engage finance and accounting teams in the conversations and emphasize optimizing value delivery. [09:35] - What's broken with traditional budgeting? [10:15] - How Lean Portfolio Management helps organizations more easily align with customer needs and adapt to swiftly changing market conditions. [11:56] - Why traditional budgeting processes often lead to delays in responding to unexpected changes. [14:15] - How cultural factors can hinder an organization's adaptation to changing circumstances. [14:30] - Mountain Goat Software has designed the best training to help you stand out in the market. With live interactive courses and a mixture of lecture time and frequent breakout rooms to keep you engaged every second you're learning. All their courses are designed to give you the skills that agile teams and organizations value. For more information and the class schedule visit Mountain Goat Software today. [16:19] - The key components in Lean Portfolio Management. [18:34] - The value of early detection for proactive responses. [19:31] - Randy discusses the impact of organizational culture on transformation efforts and the importance of adapting processes within a compliance-based culture. [21:26] - Brian and Randy discuss the challenge of selecting meaningful metrics for effective decision-making. [24:48] - Randy highlights the importance of addressing uncertainty and focusing on critical factors using a scenario where a projected $5 million in revenue failed to meet expectations due to unvalidated assumptions. [25:21] - Brian discusses the common-sense principle that the further you are from a future event, the less precise your predictions can be. [26:29] - The million-dollar point of the conversation. [27:01] - The default way of tracking things that is disconnected from reality and the real value of what you deliver. [28:57] - You can connect with Randy at Agile Velocity or via LinkedIn. [30:32] - Don’t forget to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. If you have feedback or ideas for the show, just email [email protected]. [31:04] - For further discussion about Lean Portfolio Management or any other topic on the Agile Mentors Podcast join the Agile Mentors Community. References and resources mentioned in the show: Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts #17: Getting There From Here: Agile Transformations with David Hawks Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Randy Hale is an Agile Transformation Coach with over a decade of experience guiding companies through Agile transformations. Randy's hands-on knowledge and training have helped businesses of all sizes embrace Agile and Lean thinking for greater success including Fortune 500 companies like Nike, Petco, and Charter Communications.

Join Brian and his guest John Grant as they unveil how Agile methodologies are revolutionizing legal practices for improved client experiences and smarter workflow efficiency. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian sits down with John Grant to discuss using Agile methodologies and client-focused strategies in the legal profession. Listen in as John shares his unique perspective and innovative approach for reshaping legal workflows and enhancing client communication at the intersection of law and Agile practices. Listen Now to Discover: [01:00] - Brian introduces the podcast and guest, John Grant, a lawyer using Agile in the legal space. [01:19] - How legal use of Agile differs from other fields. [02:06] - John shares how clarity in communication is a challenge in legal work, similar to other fields. [03:00] - Brian compares legal work to building websites. [03:43] - John differentiates between "sheet music" (standardized work) and "jazz solos" (unique cases) in legal practice. [05:16] - The challenges of a high demand for legal services and a shortage of lawyers and how to ensure quality. [08:23] - John explains why the Kanban method is well-suited for legal practices. [09:27] - How to avoid overloading capacity and prioritize effectively. [11:39] - How the principles of Agile, Lean, and other methodologies, along with a focus on client value, are crucial even outside software development. [12:09] - The tendency to devalue the client's role in legal matters and the challenge of balancing technical work and customer care. [12:31] - The role of lawyers and discerning what clients genuinely want from legal services. [12:49] - The law is fundamentally a caregiving profession: John emphasizes the importance of caregiving and customer support in the legal profession. [13:31] - The need for effective communication and collaboration. [15:00] - John shares a case study involving a law firm specializing in estate planning and trust administration. [15:47] - John explains the creation of a multi-step client journey roadmap in the introduction letter, setting the tone for the client journey. [17:30] - The unique role of clients in legal work and how they contribute vital information to the legal team. [18:48] - This podcast is sponsored by Mountain Goat Software’s Certified Scrum Training classes. All certified classes include a twelve-month membership in the Agile Mentors Community. [19:36] - Brian draws parallels between capturing customer attitudes and feelings in personas in Certified Scrum Product Owner® classes and the importance of understanding clients' emotions in legal work. [20:21] - Daniel Katz's breakdown of clients seeking legal help to either mitigate risk or navigate complexity, and how this helps tailor the client journey. [21:35] - The frequent client complaint in the legal field. [23:09] - John explains how mapping workflows to the client journey introduces the concept of classes of service and enables smarter prioritization of work based on its urgency and importance. [23:32] - The key Agile concepts applied in the legal context: focusing on the customer, limiting work in progress, understanding customer journeys, and making work visible. [23:53] - Humans are naturally inclined to process information visually and the significance of visualizing work in knowledge work environments. [25:00] - The scalability of Kanban in law firms. [28:31] - John introduces the concept of the "help desk theory of lawyering," comparing lawyers' support roles to IT help desks and how Kanban systems can aid communication with clients. [31:22] - For more information on John’s Kanban training visit Agile Attorney. [32:00] - If you enjoyed the episode, the best way to support us is to share it with others and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. If you have feedback or ideas for the show, just email [email protected]. [33:24] - For further discussion join the Agile Mentors Community where we discuss each podcast episode. References and resources mentioned in the show: Agile Attorney Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. John Grant is a fourth-generation lawyer with a background spanning both technology and law. Drawing from his experience in the tech industry and legal sector, he offers a unique perspective on legal practice. He's passionate about facilitating positive change in legal practices and using the Kanban methodology to help legal teams unlock their full potential.

Join Brian and his guest Lance Dacy as they address the interplay (and the skepticism) of combining Agile and data science. Tune in as they explore the art of crafting Minimum Viable Products (MVPs) to create impactful and efficient solutions. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian sits down with Lance Dacy to delve into the nuances of aligning data science with the software development mold while dispelling the myths along the way. Listen in as Lance shares his wealth of experience and insights guiding listeners through the step-by-step process of building MVPs in data science projects and sharing how Agile principles seamlessly apply to both worlds. Listen Now to Discover: [01:13] - Brian introduces Lance Dacy on the Agile Mentors Podcast. Since listeners appreciated the previous data science and agile episode, Lance is here for Part Two, this time discussing how data science fits into the software development mold. [02:00] - Addressing the skepticism of combining agile and data science; Lance has both expertise and practical experience. [02:43] - Lance emphasizes that he understands the “naysayers” concerns but aims to help others comprehend the synergy. [03:05] - Waterfall might be better: sorting out the different perspectives on Agile development and data science. [04:45] - The importance of scoping and architecture in software development projects. [05:15] - Challenging the notion of perfectly defined objectives. [05:46] - Most software projects lack a completely predefined understanding. [06:39] - How Agile's empirical process and mindset of experimentation align with data science. [07:30] - Presenting a real-world MVP example combining business drivers and data science techniques. [08:04] - Clarifying what Agile is—a philosophy based on values, not a step-by-step process. [09:03] - The importance of sustainable pace and productivity in Agile. [10:10] - Introducing the concept of MVP and acknowledging the evolution of data science techniques. [11:00] - Discussing MVP in the context of data science, and aligning it with empirical approach. [11:38] - Highlighting the role of MVP in testing assumptions, mitigating risks, and user feedback. [12:00] - Exploring data science's practical relevance for consumers to forge a relatable discussion. [12:47] -Acknowledging familiarity with technology, uncertain about tactics. [13:00] - Highlighting how AI and data science are pervasive in everyday technology use. [13:29] - Examples of AI data science integration: search engines, online shopping recommendations, social media content, smart homes, and more. [14:42] - Introducing common uses of data science: customer segmentation and marketing techniques. [15:19] - Applying clustering techniques like K means for automated segmentation. [15:34] - Lance shares his paper on supply chain optimization, using an ant colony algorithm. [15:56] - The techniques and purpose of supply chain optimization. [16:23] - Exploring data science applications: collaborative filtering, matrix factorization, neural networks. [16:42] - Clarifying data scientists' approach: not a random process but based on problem-solving with models. [17:18] - Iterative development as a primary reason for MVP in data science. [17:57] - Using real-world performance data for model improvement. [18:21] - Risk mitigation as a critical aspect of MVP: linking risk mitigation to surviving challenges and learning from them. [19:51] - Starting with an MVP reduces risk by avoiding overly complex models without sufficient feedback. [20:19] - Setting stakeholder expectations with an MVP: providing tangible insight into data science trade-offs and early deliverables. [20:39] - Highlighting operational considerations of deploying and maintaining data models, addressing challenges in data pipelines, infrastructure, and monitoring. [22:17] - An MVP approach aligns with Agile principles for data science. [22:35] - Brian clarifies the misconception that MVP means sacrificing quality for speed. [23:30] - Lance agrees, addressing the misconception, and emphasizes MVP's importance in learning and improvement. [23:32] - Have you thought about training with Mountain Goat Software? With classes such as Mountain Goat Software, Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO) developed by Mike Cohn, and team home software for better interactivity during classes you can’t go wrong. [24:00] - Brian suggests transitioning to walking through a model or example of creating an MVP. [24:07] -A tangible framework for mapping data science work to MVP steps, acknowledging the contextual nature of the process. [24:50] - Lance acknowledges the complexity of the steps, so they’ve been posted below under resources. [25:11] - The importance of problem definition and defining the scope of the MVP. [26:34] - The challenge of gathering and preprocessing data. [27:20] - Selecting a simple model that is easy to interpret and implement for faster training times, easier troubleshooting, and adherence to the principle of parsimony. [29:12] - Using feature engineering to select the most relevant features for the model. [29:33] - Choosing a manageable number of features for the model, rather than attempting to incorporate all available data and avoid overcomplicating or overfitting the model. [30:11] - Lance emphasizes the importance of selecting a simple model and conducting feature engineering based on the insights gained from that model. [30:36] - Training the chosen machine learning model using pre-processed data, typically by splitting the data into training and validation sets. [31:15] - The challenge of evaluating the model's performance and the importance of using the appropriate metrics. [31:34] - The goal: create a model that is good enough for gathering feedback that aligns with the concept of MVP. [31:53] - Lance describes the last step of building an MVP: deploying the MVP by integrating the model into a suitable platform or application. [32:26] - The importance of making the MVP accessible to end users. [33:00] - The crucial feedback loop for making improvements to the model and features, and refining, scaling, or reconsidering the approach. [34:09] - Why you might want to initially deploy a slightly higher-level model. [34:57] - The parallel between the steps of creating an MVP in data science and the principles of Agile. [35:18] - Brian adds that in data science, feedback not only comes from customers and users but also involves analyzing results and outcomes as a form of feedback to refine the model. [35:53] - The importance of relying on scientific expertise to analyze the results of the model and evaluate its accuracy and validity. [36:10] - In data science, the feedback loop also involves analyzing the outcomes and results, similar to the iterative process of receiving user feedback in software development. [37:00] - Lance draws parallels between software development and data science by comparing the process of building software features with the steps involved in creating an MVP for data science. [39:21] - Lance offers some practical examples, beginning with a recommendation system. [41:06] - The decision tree approach and its benefits for stakeholders. [43:00] - Lance talks about churn prediction to gradually incorporate more nuanced data. [43:55] - MVPs for chatbots and the benefits of starting with simple scripted responses in a chatbot MVP. [45:59] - Managing multiple projects. [46:24] - The effectiveness of using logistic regression and decision trees for MVPs. [47:00] - Lance emphasizes the importance of managing stakeholders' expectations. [47:53] - Lance discusses the need to consider the context when interpreting model performance metrics and involving stakeholders in these discussions. [49:16] - The importance of collaboration between data scientists and stakeholders for delivering valuable solutions. [50:11] - Lance draws a comparison between data science and software development in terms of the challenge of coordinating work across different specialized areas. [51:00] - Lance highlights the importance of feedback and iterative adjustments for success. [53:24] - Again, you can find Episode #54: Unlocking Agile's Power in the World of Data Science with Lance Dacy, here. [53:48] - We’d love to hear your thoughts on this topic and your suggestions for future topics. Just email [email protected]. If you enjoyed the episode, the best way to support us is to share it with others and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. [55:00] - Don’t forget to check out the Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule, including, Certified Scrum Master (CSM) or a Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO) and Advanced Certified Scrum Master (ACSM) and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner (ACSPO) classes. I'd really love to see you in class! References and resources mentioned in the show: 6 Reasons Why I Think Agile Data Science Does Not Work | by Ilro Lee Why Data Science Doesn't Respond Well to Agile Methodologies Lance’s SMU Paper (Ant Colony Algorithm and Traveling Salesman Problem) #54: Unlocking Agile's Power in the World of Data Science with Lance Dacy Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Reasons for Quick MVP in Data Science are to support: Iterative Development Feedback Loop Risk Mitigation Setting Expectations Operational Considerations Steps of the MVP: Problem Definition Gather and Preprocess the Data Select a simple model Feature engineering Train the model Evaluate the model Deploy the MVP Collect Feedback Iterate Decision Time Examples of MVP in Data Science (Logistic regression and decision trees are often used as initial models due to their simplicity, interpretability, and relatively quick development time.) Recommendation Systems: Instead of building a complex recommendation engine, a company might start with a simple rule-based system (e.g., recommending the most popular items) to gauge user interest and system engagement. Churn Prediction: An MVP might involve creating a basic model based on a few key features (like usage frequency and customer complaints) to predict which customers might churn. Later versions can incorporate more nuanced data and sophisticated algorithms. Natural Language Processing (NLP): For a chatbot, the MVP might involve scripted responses or basic keyword matching. Once deployed, user interactions can inform the development of more advanced NLP capabilities Conclusion With Rapid MVP, context is crucial with regard to our general benchmarks (F1-Score, ROC-AUC, MAE, RMSE). You should strive to always consider the context of those benchmarks with the problem being solved. In some medical diagnostic tests, even an F1-score of 0.95 might not be good enough due to the severe consequences of false negatives or false positives. We also likely need to compare the model's performance metrics with a simple baseline (e.g., random classifier, mean prediction) to determine how much value the model is adding. Always align the model's performance with business objectives. Even a model with a high ROC-AUC might not be suitable if it doesn't meet the specific precision or recall targets set by the business. Isn’t it better to find ways to know that earlier than later? Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant's heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away.

In this new episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian welcomes Maarten Dalmijn to discuss the secrets to setting impactful sprint goals, fostering collaboration, and bridging the gap between team objectives and stakeholder expectations for Agile success. Overview In this new episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian is joined by Maarten Dalmijn, author of the new book, Driving Value with Sprint Goals: Humble Plans, Exceptional Results to share his invaluable insights into the art of crafting effective sprint goals. Maarten shares his wealth of knowledge including how to navigate the challenges of setting sprint goals while ensuring alignment with stakeholders' expectation, and optimizing team structure while fostering a collaborative environment that ensures success. Listen in as Maarten and Brian explore the essence of sprint goals, the strategies behind their formulation and the impact they have on Agile projects. Listen Now to Discover: [1:06] - Today, Brian is sitting down with Maarten Dalmijn, of Dalmijn Consulting and author the book Driving Value with Sprint Goals: Humble Plans, Exceptional Results that’s the number one new release in software design and engineering on on Amazon to discuss sprint goals. [2:16] - Maarten explains the concept of sprint goals using the analogy of a military commander's intent during missions. [3:22] - Brian shares how sprint goals serve as a commander's intent for the team's work. [4:07] - Maarten highlights that a sprint goal is not about completing a list of tasks but rather identifying the most important objective for the sprint. [5:24] - The challenges of conceptualizing sprint goals. [5:58] - Unable to set a single spring goal? Maarten addresses the question of setting a sprint goal for teams with multiple purposes or projects. [7:29] - Scenarios where setting a single sprint goal might not be feasible. [8:31] -The challenge of staying focused on the sprint goal when encountering obstacles. [9:44] - Maarten shares an example of the importance of knowing the underlying business objective when setting a spring goal. [11:08] - The importance of managing stakeholder expectations by communicating and aligning stakeholders with the sprint goal to prevent last minute surprises. [12:19] - Brian draws a parallel between sprint goals and TV episode titles, highlighting the need to share the sprint goal in the sprint review to prevent surprises and encourage stakeholder engagement. [15:28] - Are you thinking about getting certified as a Scrum Master? If so, check out the resources and training options with our sponsor, Mountain Goat Software. They run interactive certification classes every week that include 12 months membership in the Agile Mentors Community. [16:10] - Setting achievable vs. challenging sprint goals and what Maarten advocates for. [19:46] - Brian shares a teaching example. [20:12] - Maarten introduces the acronym "FOCUS" to assess the quality of sprint goals: Fun, Outcome-oriented, Collaborative, Ultimate, and Singular and shares each one’s role in creating effective sprint goals. [22:12] - Maarten discusses the importance of stakeholder management and its connection to clear vision and strategy within organizations. [22:47] -The role of team structure in setting sprint goals. [24:17] - Managing stakeholder pushback during sprint reviews. Maarten underscores the importance of working as a team with stakeholders to foster effective communication and alignment. [26:50] - The impact of planning and road mapping on the ability to set sprint goals. [28:21] - What stakeholders ultimately want. [29:18] - You can find Maarten’s book, Driving Value with Sprint Goals: Humble Plans, Exceptional Results on Amazon. It’s part of the Mike Cohn book series. [29:50] - To continue the discussion, Join Us in the Agile Mentors Community, there’s a discussion about every episode of the podcast on there. [30:30] - Your feedback is valuable, we’d love to hear from you. Feel free to email us by clicking here. We'd love your thoughts about today's show and suggestions for future episodes. [31:04] - If you enjoyed the episode, the best way to support us is to share it with others and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. References and resources mentioned in the show: Dalmijn Consulting Maarten Dalmijn Driving Value with Sprint Goals: Humble Plans, Exceptional Results Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Join the Agile Mentors Community Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is the SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Maarten Dalmijn of Dalmijn Consulting is an accomplished speaker at Fortune 500 firms, governmental bodies, and global conferences, who thrives at the nexus of Product Management and Agile. With a decade of versatile experience spanning roles from Marketing Manager to Scrum Master, he empowers teams to transcend the Feature Factory and achieve impactful value delivery. Maarten is the author of the recently released Driving Value with Sprint Goals: Humble Plans, Exceptional Results.

In this episode of Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian, and Scott Dunn delve into the biggest question challenging teams right now: Should they return to the office or continue to embrace remote work? Join us as we navigate the complex factors in the office vs. remote debate. Overview Across industries, the call to return to the office is gaining momentum among management circles. In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian sits down with Scott Dunn, to unravel the layers of the working in the office versus remote settings debate. Listen in as they discuss various perspectives and considerations such as productivity, work-life balance, leadership styles, personality types, and even economic factors that influence the decision to have your team in the office or at home and what truly defines an effective workspace. Tune in as Scott and Brian share valuable insights into the ongoing debate that's reshaping the modern work landscape Listen Now to Discover: [01:31] - Brian welcomes guest Scott Dunn to the show to discuss their feelings toward management saying it’s time to return to the office post-Covid. [02:48] - Everyone’s affected in one way or another by the return to the office vs the prevailing “squishy” remote work policy. [04:01] - Where are you really the most productive? [04:16] - The basic needs of a generation: why “fully remote” is so appealing to Gen Z. [05:55] - Words straight from the Agile manifesto that supports in-person work and face-to-face communication. [06:44] - Quantifying what’s been lost from being face-to-face to being fully remote. [07:13] - How open working sessions and working side by side but independently boosts productivity. [07:41] - The tools that elevate remote collaboration and help facilitate small group dynamics when working remotely. [09:31] - Remote work and the allure of opening the talent pool combined with less turnover is a game-changer. [10:26] - How to run a focused remote work trial to assess applicants and gather insights. [10:58] - It's about more than just the comfort or preference of the leadership team. [11:23] - The most critical factor in determining if you have a hiring problem. [12:03] - How to deal with the issue of unequal contribution and improve team dynamics. [12:39] - Why managers have concerns about remote and how to alleviate them. [13:27] - How to enhance team accountability and empower team members by implementing measurable tracking to ensure everyone's pulling their weight. [14:48] - Drive positive change by experimenting and then taking action. [19:41] - The Agile Mentors Podcast is proudly sponsored by Mountain Goat Software with a range of training options, from Scrum certifications to skill enhancement, visit www.mountaingoatsoftware.com. [15:25] - How to balance support for employees with managerial accountability. [16:00] -The correlation between happy employees and productivity. Simon Sinek's insights highlight the connection between employee happiness and success. [17:07] - The vital (and challenging) responsibility of leaders to not only guide teams but define the expectations of the company culture. [19:00] - Open dialog and constructive conflict: Patrick Lencioni’s approach to vulnerable leadership for trust and psychological safety. [19:35] - How to spark healthy conflict and promote results. [20:00] - The importance of acknowledging personality differences, diverse working styles, and ideal working conditions. [20:37] - How to encourage open dialogue to address concerns and foster employee ownership. [21:14] - Leading the conversations about remote work to the right approach. [21:40] - Embracing personal user manuals for improved teamwork. [22:14] - How to embrace a balanced approach that values different work styles. [23:35] - How introverted and extroverted differences can impact experiences: How constructive feedback promotes awareness and inclusive adjustments. [26:16] - Why remote work decisions should be rooted in culture and individual fit rather than an across-the-board, fixed policy. [27:09] - How a hybrid approach accommodates diverse work styles. [27:29] - Remote teams, as shown by a Harvard Business Review study, can be more productive, especially when employees overwork to prove their worth from home. [28:11] - How to help employees align with teams that suit their work styles. [28:45] - Consider implementing a system where teams choose to be fully remote or not, allowing for a comprehensive evaluation of factors like productivity, team happiness, and innovation. [29:02] - How to help fully remote teams take ownership of their success. [29:32] - Weighing all the factors in the remote vs. in-person debate is essential, for aligning goals, ensuring meaningful decision-making, and opening the door to change. [30:33] - How the critically important remote work decision will impact future Scrum teams', economic considerations, and overall work-life balance. [31:10] - We don’t claim to have definitive answers but hope you enjoyed our conversation on navigating complex workplace challenges. [32:09] - Your feedback is valuable. We'd love your thoughts about today's show or any suggestions for future topics for the show. Email us by clicking here. [33:24] - We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. If you enjoyed the episode, share it with others and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. References and resources mentioned in the show: Miro Start With Why by Simon Sinek The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni Join the Agile Mentors Community Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is the SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum.

In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian welcomes Agile coach Reese Schmit who shares her tips for breaking recurring anti-patterns in teams and organizations through the power of the why. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian is joined by Agile Coach Reese Schmit to discuss identifying and tackling recurring Agile anti-patterns in teams and organizations. Reese shares her valuable insights on the significance of understanding the "why" behind Agile practice and avoiding the trap of "cargo cult Scrum." Listen in as she shares her tips for fostering transparency, collaboration, and trust among team members and how rediscovering the purpose behind Agile practices can lead to a world where people are excited and happy about their work. Listen Now to Discover: [01:10] - Brian sits down with guest Reese Schmit, a coach, trainer, and mom, from the Agile 2023 Conference in Orlando, to discuss identifying and tackling recurring Agile anti-patterns in teams and organizations. [03:10] - Reese talks about her revelation during an open jam session at the Agile 2023 Conference, where she realized the prevalence of the same anti-patterns across different teams and organizations over the past 15 years. [05:04] - Brian and Reese discuss the frustratingly common situation of organizations claiming uniqueness but facing the same Agile challenges. [06:19] - Reese highlights the misguided approach of blindly adhering to Agile frameworks like Scrum without understanding the principles. [06:38] - Overplanning and white-knuckling the backlog = irrelevant user stories and wasted efforts. [07:25] - Reese shares her journey as a Certified Scrum Trainer (CST) and her initial motivation to uncover the reasons behind the persistent issues in Agile implementations. [08:54] - Brian uses the analogy of a road trip to bring home the concept of why teams need a clear goal to keep them engaged and aligned with the Agile transformation rather than just imposing Agile practices on them. [09:35] - Organizations driving without a clear destination end up with confusion, disengagement, and a sense of going through the motions. [10:32] - Reese emphasizes the importance of a clear "why" at all levels - from product features to team goals. [11:16] - Reese shares her early experiences as a Scrum Master, where she lacked a clear understanding of a "cargo cult" mentality in your organization. [12:24] - The critical role of understanding the "why" behind Agile practices. [12:28] - Brian references Dan Pink's ideas on autonomy, mastery, and purpose, about the importance of understanding the "why" and measuring progress. [13:07] - Lack of autonomy results in disengagement, ineffective retrospectives, and helplessness to fix issues. [13:56] - Reese emphasizes the significance of recognizing the capabilities of team members and trusting them to build better products, teams, and organizations. [14:38] - Brian mentions a talk by Dr. Anne-Marie Charrett, a psychologist, that discussed the issue of trust within teams and what that entails. [15:40] - Reese shares her approach to building product teams based on expertise and interest rather than imposed structures. [16:46] - Brian emphasizes the importance of paying attention to the team's preferences when organizing them around products. [17:37] - Reese highlights the challenges faced in true Agile transformations, and why merely renaming roles or events does not lead to a shift in mindset or a genuine transformation. [18:15] - What true Agile adoption requires. [19:16] - Missing Opportunities: Organizations that fail to embrace Agile's inspect-and-adapt principle miss out on the chance to improve products based on real user feedback, optimize ROI, and focus on delivering the highest value to customers. [19:41] - Today’s show is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software's Advanced Certified Product Owner® Course, a two-day training course led by a certified Scrum trainer. [20:16] -Understanding the "why" allows for better adaptation and problem-solving. [21:26] - Reese emphasizes that Agile issues are often complex and not solved by one-size-fits-all solutions. [23:37] - Brian shares how presumptive fixes can lead to misunderstandings and reduced trust. [25:46] - Recognize that team members are capable and intelligent professionals to foster trust and collaboration. [26:58] - Reese emphasizes the need to help organizations acknowledge when their information or assumptions are wrong. [27:30] - The importance of having a clear sprint goal (hint: it transforms ceremonies into meaningful events where collaboration happens). [30:35] - Clear communication about the purpose of events enhances effectiveness. [31:48] - Avoid pointless meetings. [32:12] - Overcoming inertia is essential to make meaningful progress. [32:58] - Reese humorously references a book on becoming healthy, which boils things down to the simplest terms, (eating veggies, sleeping enough, drinking water). Agile success can also be obtained simply, too by focusing on the fundamental principles. [35:31] - Rediscovering the purpose behind Agile practices can lead to a world where people are excited and happy about their work. [36:56] - Making a pact for improvement: Brian encourages listeners to take the lessons from the discussion and make a pact to focus on the core principles and purpose behind Agile practices. [37:09] - Your feedback is valuable, so email us by clicking here. We'd love your thoughts about today's show and suggestions for future topics for the show. [37:47] - If you enjoyed the episode, the best way to support us is to share it with others and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. References and resources mentioned in the show: Daniel Pink Drive Anne-Marie Charrett Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Join the Agile Mentors Community Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Agile 2023 Conference in Orlando Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is the SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Reese Schmit is an Agile coach, trainer, and mom with nearly two decades of experience in the software industry, she wears multiple hats. With a deep understanding of Scrum, Kanban, and Agile methodologies, she fosters change through empathy, driving customer value, and continuous improvement. An avid volunteer for Agile organizations and conferences, she balances her time between coaching and enjoying life with her family and pets.

In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian welcomes Don McGreal to discuss the revision of the Scrum Guide and the delicate balance between staying true to the core principles of Scrum while allowing for necessary flexibility. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian is joined by Don McGreal, to delve into the topic of revising the Scrum Guide. Don shares some of the behind-the-scenes of the decision-making process, and the rationale behind the crucial revisions that have shaped the latest version of the Scrum Guide. Listen in to gain a deeper understanding of the principles that guide Scrum and how they continue to evolve and the delicate balance between staying true to the core principles while allowing for necessary flexibility. Listen Now to Discover: [01:11] - Brian welcomes us to the show and introduces his guest, Don McGreal, the Founder and Vice President of Learning Solutions for Improving, author of “The Professional Product Owner” and a big name in the Scrum.org community to talk about revising the Scrum Guide. [04:27] - Don shares how he got involved in revising the Scrum Guide. [05:21] - One team, one group focused on the product. [06:57] - What a scrum team consists of now and why they made the change. [08:11]- We don't expect you to have a title on your business card. [08:53] -The switch from role to accountability. [10:51] - Ten people on a team, one Scrum master, one product owner: It's not illegal in Scrum to take on more than one set of accountabilities or have a bigger team but there are risks involved. [12:51] - Three people using Scrum to work through treatments for a child with autism. [13:34] - Why the team decided to stick with the term "developer." [16:22] - Other terms, including "sprint" and 'backlog" that caused debates and why they stuck. [17:39] - Scrum sounds different because it IS. [18:20] - True Leader: the hot-button topic in the scrum guide that people are still debating, and how they landed on their decision. [19:52] - Clarifying the term "serve" and the need for true leaders who empower the team and make things happen beyond just serving. [21:21] - Today’s show is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software's, Advanced Certified Product Owner® Course, which aims to enhance product owners' skills, confidence, and credibility. The course offers lifetime access to materials and interactive software for valuable and enjoyable breakout exercises. Additionally, participants gain access to Mike Cohn's Agile Mentors Community, with 12 months of ongoing coaching and support. [22:00] - The decision to drop the three questions from the Daily and the new approach. [22:47] - A significant addition to the Scrum framework – the concept of a product goal representing the journey towards a vision. [23:40] - The (results-driven) power of the product goal as inspired by “The 4 Disciplines of Execution." and how it’s changed how backlogs are managed and success is measured. [25:00] - Changing the measure of success: measuring success by value rather than checking things off a backlog list. [25:26] - The vision is the big idea-the product goal is the milestone. It's a step towards the vision. [26:21] - In the revised Scrum Guide, the product goal is now part of the product backlog, emphasizing a commitment to achieving objectives with sprint and product goals focusing on the overall goal, not every task, while the Definition of Done ensures the increment's success. [29:28] - Before the new Scrum Guide, teams working on multiple products had debates on having one prioritized backlog or multiple lists. [30:12] - How the introduction of the product goal in the Scrum Guide directed teams towards having one focused direction, (preventing everything from being equally important). [31:06] - How emphasizing one strategic focus helped teams with multiple products alleviate challenges with prioritizing and improved their approach and alignment. [31:43] - Product backlog with mixed products lacks direction. Product goal provides focus without excluding other items. [33:15] - Some of the controversial changes, like making refinement an event and concerns about terminology like "master" in Scrum roles. [34:49] - The term "immutable" in the Scrum Guide means unchanging, which some find bothersome, but it serves to maintain consistency and distinguish genuine Scrum from modified versions. [36:49] - It's immutable, and it isn't suffocating. It's a lightweight framework described in a 13-page document—there's a lot of wiggle room in there—give it a shot and give it its best chance to succeed by following these simple rules. [37:28] - Change it if you must but then stop calling it Scrum. [38:05] - The sacred text about Scrum is meant to be easy to take on, helpful…AND flexible. [39:22] - Learning from the early days: streamlining a 200-300 page document with legal complexities into the current Scrum Guide, while aiming to distill its essence and promote simplicity and accessibility. [40:48] - You can find out more about Don and Improving by visiting their website. Additionally, Don's book, "The Professional Product Owner," can be found on Amazon. [41:07] - If you enjoyed the episode, the best way to support us is to share it with others and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. Your feedback is valuable, so feel free to email us by clicking here. References and resources mentioned in the show: Scrum Guides Improving The Professional Product Owner: Leveraging Scrum as a Competitive Advantage Scrum.org The 4 Disciplines of Execution Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Join the Agile Mentors Community Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is the SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Don McGreal is Vice President of Learning Solutions at Improving, and author of the best-selling book: 'The Professional Product Owner: Leveraging Scrum as a Competitive Advantage', and a Scrum.org Professional Scrum Trainer who has authored and taught classes for thousands of professionals around the globe.

Are your retrospectives boring? Join us on the latest episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast as Brian shares valuable insights on how to supercharge your retrospectives. Discover the three root causes behind boring or ineffective retrospectives and unlock tips to enhance their effectiveness. Overview Today on the Agile Mentors Podcast Brian Milner shares valuable insights on supercharging your retrospectives. Listen in to discover the three root causes behind boring or ineffective retrospectives, plus Brian shares his tips on ways to enhance their effectiveness. Tune in as Brian unveils some innovative ways to breathe new life into your retrospective themes while creating more meaningful connections within your team and fostering a deeper understanding of the bigger picture. Listen Now to Discover: [01:18] - On this last podcast episode for July, Brian offers insight into the three root causes behind uninteresting or ineffective retrospectives and tips to enhance and revitalize your retrospectives. [01:58] - Are your retrospectives boring? To supercharge your retrospectives: don't just go through the motions; take ownership, connect the dots, and make things happen. [02:45] - Scrum Guide Tip: to progress towards resolving the biggest issues, put action items from your current sprint into your next sprint's backlog. [03:25] - You don't have to solve everything in one sprint. [03:51] - Showing your team their recent successes can help with motivation. [04:22] - How to make your retrospectives less boring. Boredom buster #1: make them effective—avoid repeating the same issues. [04:43] - Boredom buster #2: transparency is vital in boosting collaboration and trust—create a safe space for open discussions (use anonymous voting to gauge team comfort). [06:10] - Equal say for all (including Scrum Masters), how anonymity empowers everyone and leads to collaborative problem-solving. [07:05] - How setup systems for topic submissions can keep your team from forgetting important issues. [07:36] - Make your retrospectives diverse: different perspectives bring fresh ideas. [08:32] - This is your chance to be creative and invent your own themes to activate your team's brain in a different way. [09:42] - Fun takeaway! Brian shares his one-of-a-kind idea for a unique retrospective theme you can use with your team. [11:49] - Pop culture, the flavor of the day, or non-traditional, Brian shares some more ideas to liven up your retrospective. [12:33] - Or try something completely different: discuss industry trends, company uniqueness, and personal highlights to connect to the bigger picture and deepen team connections. [13:39] - How unleashing the human connection can lead to stronger bonds and better teamwork. [15:40] - Why you should experiment with new ways to revive your retrospectives. [16:48] - New guest episodes are coming up in August! Do you have an Agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us here. [16:51] - A message from our sponsor: Better User Stories, a one-day live online training course with Mike Cohn to improve your user story writing, so your team can do its best work, faster. [17:22] - New guest episodes are coming up in August! Do you have an Agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us here. References and resources mentioned in the show: Scrum Guides Mountain Goat Software’s Better User Stories Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is the SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

Join Brian Milner in another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast series on unlocking the secrets of a sustainable pace. Today he’s delving into the power of "No" in Agile. Tune in to discover the truth behind feature usage, prioritize value-driven choices, and tips for mastering the art of saying no without losing your job. Overview Today on the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner sheds light on the power of saying "No" in Agile organizations. "No" is an integral part of a healthy Agile organization. Learn how prioritizing value-driven choices empowers success in delivering the highest value to customers every time. Listen in as Brian shares valuable insights on establishing shared desired outcomes to ensure alignment and effective decision-making within teams and organizations. Tune in for practical tips on mastering the art of saying "No" with confidence, navigating challenging conversations, and preserving relationships and job security along the way. Listen Now to Discover: [00:53] - In this episode of our summer series on practicing sustainable pace, Brian Milner talks about how important it is to say no, without losing your job.  [01:40] - Challenging the 64% Myth: Unveiling the Truth Behind Feature Usage (famous Standish Group study on feature utilization and Mike Cohn’s research). [2:15] - The 2019 Feature Adoption Report | Pendo.io White Papers and The Surprising Power of Online Experiments. [02:49] - Slack's monetization woes - unveiling the reality: 70% of features fail to deliver. [03:13] - Product development philosophy: switching course to design features people care about. [04:49] - Unlocking Agile's Key Principle: Product owners must practice saying NO daily in the mirror. [06:34] - Saying no to unlock actual value - selective deliveries for maximum impact and prioritizing quality over quantity in our deliverables. [07:17] - Saying no isn't always easy. [07:32] - Tips for navigating the art of saying no while preserving relationships and job security. [08:50] - How establishing shared desired outcomes in Agile ensures alignment and effective decision-making and fosters collaboration and value to customers. [10:11] - For product owners: how prioritizing value-driven choices ensures success for both the product and the organization. [12:56] - How developers can foster understanding and acknowledge their role while exploring how choices will impact the team and process. [13:39] - A strategic dialogue on overtime requests' downstream effects and impact. [14:54] - NO should be a regular occurrence in a healthy agile organization. [15:08] - A message from our sponsor: Better User Stories, a one-day live online training course with Mike Cohn to improve your user story writing, so your team can do its best work, faster. References and resources mentioned in the show: Standish Group Are 64% of Features Really Rarely or Never Used? #25: Scaling with Henrik Kniberg Product Ownership in a Nutshell Manifesto for Agile Software Development Mountain Goat Software’s Better User Stories Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is the SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

In this week's episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner dives deep into the importance of experimentation in Agile organizations. Tune in to learn valuable tips for Scrum Masters, Product Owners, and Developers to embrace an experimental mindset. Overview Experimentation is at the heart of Agile's DNA, fueling innovation and continuous improvement. Today on the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner explores the fundamental role of experimentation in Agile organizations. "Agile is a framework that allows teams to find the best ways of working together, and this can only be achieved through continuous experimentation." Brian offers his tips for Scrum Masters, Product Owners, and Developers to embrace experimentation in their respective roles. Experimentation is a cultural value. Listen in to gain insights into the power of experimentation to unlock the full potential of Agile within your organization. Summer is a great time to explore new approaches and experiment with Agile practices. Join Brian as he shares practical tips and real-world examples to help you embrace an experimental mindset on your Agile journey. Listen Now to Discover: [00:53] - This is the second of our special July episodes where we're taking a break from interviews and focusing on some quick tips you can use. [01:21] - Today, we're diving into the topic of experimentation. [02:53] - What Google says about experimentation [03:46] - What is Empiricism, and what does it have to do with Agile? [04:09] - Unlike traditional product development, Agile operates on a research and development paradigm focused on experimentation and inventing new solutions rather than mass production. [04:35] - Experimentation is really at the heart of what we do in Agile. [05:03] - Experimentation is a cultural value. [06:10] - Wipe the word failure out of your vocabulary. [06:42] - Experiments can go either way, and that's okay. It's just the facts. [07:09] - Three tips for Scrum Masters to embrace experimentation. [10:04] - Three tips for Product Owners to embrace experimentation. [11:44] - How Developers can embrace experimentation. [14:03] - Finding the right balance for your team. References and resources mentioned in the show: Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is the SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian takes listeners on a discovery of what sustainable pace is, what it isn’t, and how embracing a culture that is pro work-life balance can lead to not only enhanced well-being for your team members but also help them be more productive. Overview Today on the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner is walking listeners through the hidden drawbacks of pushing teams to their limits in a fast-paced work environment and the benefits for work and employee well-being of maintaining a sustainable pace. Brian takes a look at the resurgence of the "crack the whip" mentality and the impact of prioritizing excessive work hours over sustainable practices. Listen in for Brian's tips for creating a culture that embraces sustainability and work-life balance and the transformative impact it can have on individuals, teams, and organizations alike. Listen Now to Discover: [00:53] - Join us in July for quick shorter episodes and valuable insights designed to enhance your Agile journey. We'll be back with full episodes in August! [02:11] - Diving into the topic of sustainable pace: uncover the drawbacks of pushing teams too hard in a fast-paced work environment and why sustainable pace is essential for productivity and employee well-being. [03:49] - The resurgence of the "crack the whip" mentality and its impact on employee morale and quality of work. [4:33] -The philosophy of hardcore work, including a specific example involving Elon Musk and the importance of finding a sustainable work-life balance. [6:04] - Discover the impact of stress on software development through a study by Tsuneo Furuyama to learn how long-term stress factors contribute to 71% of software faults. [7:25] - Pushing people to work nights and weekends has a negative effect on the quality of work. [7:43] - The origin of the concept of sustainable pace in XP and the importance of maintaining a sustainable pace for long-term success. [8:57] - The true meaning of sustainable pace: how to embrace the balance between productivity and personal well-being. [10:14] - The negative consequences of rushing and time pressure in software development. [10:49] - How pushing teams beyond their sustainable pace actually results in more errors, bugs, and delays. [11:14] - A sustainable pace leads to faster and more efficient releases in the long run. [11:53] - There really is something to work-life balance. [12:13] - Brian shares three tips to promote a sustainable pace. [12:56] - A downstream effect of having high stress in your life. [14:14] - What a sustainable pace is all about. [15:31] - Coming up on next week’s show. References and resources mentioned in the show: Tsuneo Furuyama Study Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is the SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

In this episode of Agile Mentors, Brian sits down with Lance Dacy to discuss integrating Agile and Scrum practices into the world of data science. Overview In this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast, Brian sits down with Lance Dacy to discuss integrating Agile and Scrum practices in the world of data science. Tune in to gain insight into the importance of feedback, the stages of the SAS Enterprise Miner initiative, and how frameworks like OSEMN can enhance the data science process. Listen in to learn how to strike the right balance between technical knowledge and product ownership and why culture is crucial in successful Agile implementation within the data science domain. Listen Now to Discover: [01:16] - Brian introduces his guest Lance Dacy, referring to him as "our San Diego Zoo guy" and the topic of today's show using Agile or Scrum practices in a data science world. [02:27] - Lance shares his background in data science and how it fits into the world of Agile. [05:06] - The big reason so many people are against using Agile for data science and where the big rub is. [09:02] - Who cares if it’s Agile or not? Lance shares Jeff Salts's poll about data science and introduces CRISP-DM. [11:05] - The six steps of the cross-industry standard process for data mining. [14:18] - Adopting a Scrum-like approach and treating data science work as smaller phases makes it possible to classify and organize tasks effectively. [15:59] - Does anyone remember the Rational Unified Process? [17:57] - It’s up to you to come up with ideas—once you have them, here's how we get it done. [18:18] - In the world of data science, implementing frameworks like Scrum can lead to misconceptions and failures—the key lies in understanding the layers of data science, navigating the complexities of the work effectively, and making informed decisions. [23:06] - The vital importance of feedback. [23:45] - The stages of the SAS Enterprise Miner initiative. [27:25] Brian introduces the sponsor for the podcast, Mountain Goat Software, and their two-day Certified ScrumMaster Course that’s perfect for anyone who wants to understand Scrum and add value to any team. [28:23] - How the product owner fits in when discussing working with big data. [29:50] Lance introduces the OSEMN process and explains how to solve a problem like a data scientist. [30:47] - When it comes to the role of a product owner, the technical knowledge required depends on the nature of the product. [31:42] - While Scrum lacks explicit guidance on backlog construction, the OSEMN framework themes (obtain, scrub, explore, model, interpret) can be incorporated to align sprint goals with specific aspects of the data science process. [33:47] - The framework or the structure of how you carry it out is less important than the kind of agreement. [35:07] - It's a cultural rather than a process problem. Lance delves into the debate on applying Agile Scrum to research. [36:37] - A fundamental misunderstanding about daily scrums. [37:18] - None of us are smarter than all of us together. Agile and Scrum work well when you know how to solve the problem, and there's a relatively clear path to victory. [38:49] - Brian shares his biggest piece of advice to people considering this in the data science [39:28] - “Data science is just the work that we're trying to do, tailor your process for your team and your culture and always inspect and adapt to try to make it better.” [41:08] - If you have feedback for the show or topics for future episodes, email us by clicking here (if you have yet to get a response, send another one as something has gone wrong in the process). And don’t forget to subscribe to the “Agile Mentors” Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. And if you are a data scientist or work in big data and found the information in this valuable, let one of your co-workers know about it. References and resources mentioned in the show: Data Science Process Alliance CRISP-DM OSEMN Scrum and Data Science Agile Mentors Blog Topic: Decision Science - What methodology fits best? Certified ScrumMaster Training and Scrum Certification Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is the SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant's heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away.

Unveiling the truth behind Agile coaching! Brian sits down with Lucy O'Keefe to debunk the misconceptions, share the keys to effective coaching, and share their insight on the one-two punch of training and coaching for sustainable success. Overview In this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast, Brian sits down with Lucy O'Keefe to debunk the misconceptions and unveil the true role of Agile coaches. They share their personal stories and revelations and explore the pros and cons of moving from Scrum Master to Agile coach. They'll walk listeners through the transformative power of external perspectives, navigating conflicts, and the collaborative mindset that fosters meaningful change. Plus, hear Lucy's invaluable advice on finding mentors and embarking on the journey to becoming a certified Team Coach. Listen Now to Discover: [01:10] - Brian welcomes CTC Agile Coach & Trainer Lucy O'Keefe, to the show for today’s discussion on the true role (and the common misconceptions about) of an Agile coach [02:17] - Lucy shares her initial misconception about agile coaches and how it shaped her perception of their role. [03:02] - Brian relates his experience with the term "Agile Coach" and his revelation when delving into the subject. [04:16] - Lucy and Brian reflect on their transitions from exceptional Scrum Masters to agile coaching roles. [05:53] - The pros, cons, and trade-offs of transitioning from a Scrum Master to an Agile coach. [06:32] - The shift in focus that comes with Agile coaching and what to consider to determine if this change aligns with your preferences and career aspirations. [07:12] - There's nothing wrong with being a kick *** Scrum Master. The world needs lots more like you. [07:51] -How your role as a coach involves assisting your team and organization in their pursuit of progress (or debunking the myth of perfection in Agile). [08:11] - An Agile coach is NOT merely an elevated Scrum Master. [08:33] - The two opposing misconceptions about Agile coaching and the multifaceted aspects of coaching by Bob Galen. [09:20] - Lucy emphasizes the importance of wearing multiple hats and the diverse skills required as an Agile coach. [10:26] -Avoid the “Ferris Bueller's Day Off” scenario and ensure effective communication. [11:16] - Learn to read the signs and strike the right balance to avoid frustrating situations and empower meaningful progress. [11:54] - Professional coaching requires a willingness to engage deeply and tackle tough issues. [13:38] - Knowing where to step in and when it's time not to step in. [14:07] - Brian introduces the sponsor for this podcast episode, Mountain Goat Software, and their exceptional Scrum certification classes that go beyond a traditional online whiteboard for a fun and effective way to achieve learning objectives. [14:52] - Effectively communicating the value proposition of having a team or enterprise coach. [15:41] - The dynamics of internal and external coaches within organizations. And the transformative impact that external coaches can have on an organization’s ability to address impediments effectively. [16:58] - Lucy shares how to approach coaching with a collaborative mindset, helping organizations see the value of change rather than imposing it and the questions. Agile coaches conduct assessments to uncover hidden issues to guide organizations to the areas for improvement. [19:18] - Resistance to change often stems from fear of the unknown rather than change itself. [19:57] - The most important thing to understand to help organizations reach the outcome they want and make the changes they need to make to get there. [20:15] - Brian draws a parallel between the value of a coach and that of a therapist and how an outside viewpoint proves highly beneficial in understanding and addressing systemic issues within teams. [21:29] - Asking the right questions to resolve the underlying issues through Agile coaching. [22:42] - What coaches can and can't help with—knowing your limits as a coach and the lines NOT to cross to keep your coaching journey on track. [23:40] -Don't settle for just training; go for the one-two punch of training and coaching—the winning combination that propels sustainable change. [25:48] -Why would you need to take a class? Even Bob Galen realizes he always needs to grow and learn in what he’s doing to avoid becoming irrelevant. [26:37] - Act with curiosity, but not curiosity for our own sake. [27:30] - Lucy offers her advice for people who want to become a Certified Team Coach (CTC). [29:02] - How to find the mentors that will offer you the most growth. [29:55] If you have feedback for the show or topics for future episodes, email us by clicking here (if you have yet to get a response, send another one as something has gone wrong in the process). And don’t forget to subscribe to the “Agile Mentors” Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. [30:49] - Remember that Brian and Mike will speak at this year's Agile 2023 Conference in Orlando in July. References and resources mentioned in the show: #42: The Importance of Self-Mastery with Bob Galen Agile2023! Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the "Agile Mentors" Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is the SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lucy O'Keefe has over 28 years of IT experience and has worn multiple hats in the Agile world - developer, Product Owner, and Scrum Master and now, as a Teaching Assistant, where she leverages her diverse background to ensure students have an exceptional training experience.

Join Brian and Agile pioneer Jim Highsmith as they dive into the riveting saga of 17 tech rebels who defied convention, unleashed their passions, and revolutionized the world of software development. Overview In this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast, Brian sits down with Agile pioneer Jim Highsmith to share how 17 tech rebels reshaped the software landscape. Jim shares captivating stories from his time working with NASA and Nike to the collaboration of 17 nonconformists that led to the Agile Manifesto and transformed the software industry. Listen in for a behind-the-scenes look at the circumstances that led to the birth of Agile and how camaraderie, collaboration, and a human-centric approach sparked a wildfire of support for the Agile movement. Tune in to this episode for insights, lessons, and a glimpse into the future of Agile from an industry legend. Listen Now to Discover: [01:10] - Brian introduces Jim Highsmith, a renowned figure in the Agile community. Jim is an experienced software developer, writer, and storyteller. His latest book, "Wild West to Agile," has become a sensation in the industry, earning the top spot as a new release on Amazon. He also co-authored the Agile Manifesto and the Declaration of Interdependence for Project Leaders, co-founded the Agile Alliance, and served as the first president of the Agile Leadership Network. [03:57] - Jim recounts his journey working on the NASA Apollo program and how the constant advancements in technology shaped the course of the Apollo project, offering valuable insights into the era's challenges and adaptability. [08:47] - Jim shares a fascinating story from his time at Nike, where outdated requirements left a project stagnant for 18 months. [10:34] - How waterfall methodologies left companies trapped and projects taking too long and costing too much. [11:53] - Setting the stage for the revolutionary Agile movement. [13:16] - A problem so painful leadership was on board to find a solution. [14:48] - A message from our sponsor: Mountain Goat Software has courses from Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification to Certified Scrum Product Owner Training that equips you with the sought-after skills valued by top-notch teams. Visit the Mountain Goat website for all the details. [15:40] -Jim reveals the connections and common ground that started the manifesto meeting. [18:21] - An agenda-free meeting with 17 nonconformist experts seeking common ground and how an encounter with Steve Mellor led to an unexpected alignment of intent. [21:01] - 17 individuals, each with nonconformist perspectives, agree. [21:17] - Why did 17 audacious techies revolutionize the world? And what lessons can we learn from their experience for the future? [23:39] - Where Agile's lasting impact lies and what keeps it at the forefront of change. [24:39] - Putting aside competition for collaboration and cooperation that led to change. [25:30] - What keeps Agile at the forefront of change? Brian shares a nugget of wisdom from Jim's book about Agilists. [26:38] - Finally, a language that spoke to us all!—how the Agile movement shattered the notion of interchangeable cogs and embraced our humanity, sparking a wildfire of support. [27:59] - Jim shares his thoughts on where he thinks the Agile movement is headed and why he thinks the agility of organizations and people will be a definite advantage in the future. [29:56] - Brian mentions his high recommendation for listeners to pick up Jim’s book, Wild West to Agile: Adventures in Software Development Evolution and Revolution. [31:38] - There are a ton of podcasts out there; thank you for taking the time to listen to this one. And don’t forget to subscribe to the “Agile Mentors” Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. [32:05] - If you've considered taking a CSM or CSPO class, check us out at Mountain Goat Software. Or join the conversation in our Agile Mentors Community. [32:32] - If you have feedback for the show or topics for future episodes, email us by clicking here, and I'll get back to you ASAP. References and resources mentioned in the show: Jim Highsmith Jim Highsmith on LinkedIn Wild West to Agile Agile Manifesto Agile Alliance Agile Leadership Network Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the "Agile Mentors" Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Jim Highsmith is an experienced software developer, writer, storyteller, and industry pioneer recognized for his instrumental role in the birth of the Agile movement. His latest book, "Wild West to Agile," has become a sensation in the industry, earning the top spot as a new release on Amazon. Jim continues to inspire and guide Agile enthusiasts worldwide through his insightful stories and expertise.

Gain insights into building cohesive and agile teams that bleed into each other and explore how conflicts can be transformed into opportunities for growth and improvement when Brian and his guest Julie Chickering delve into how to create team safety. Overview: In this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast, Brian sits down with Julie Chickering to explore the topic of team safety. They dive deep into the concept of psychological safety and its impact on team dynamics and productivity. From navigating conflicts and encouraging participation to embracing multiple perspectives and detaching personal worth from ideas, Brian and Julie provide valuable insights and actionable advice for Scrum Masters and team members alike. Join them as they uncover the secrets to creating a cohesive and psychologically safe environment where teams thrive and excel. Listen Now to Discover: [01:12] - Brian welcomes Julie Chickering back to the show. Teams need to feel safe and agile to be successful; that's a foundational aspect of a team. So, we're talking about team safety today. [02:12] - Julie shares how one Manhattan bartender described her team that works well together; she says it feels like "we bleed into each other." [04:11] - Sometimes people misuse or abuse the safe space, having each other's back as a license to be rude. [04:57] - From pointing fingers to fixing problems together. [05:39] - Julie shares a book called "The Culture Playbook" by Daniel Coyle and a quote on distinguishing between relational conflict and task conflict. [06:38] - Protecting team dynamics: Learn how to navigate conflicts that escalate into personal territory and regain focus on improvement. [07:37] - Effective strategies to steer discussions back to areas of agreement and keep the focus on facts. [08:09] - Embracing multiple perspectives: Explore scenarios where opposing ideas are equally feasible and the importance of making a choice and moving forward. [08:51] - Sometimes safety is misconstrued and used to stop discussions. [09:17] - How to encourage participation based on comfort levels and through smaller group sharing. [10:00] - The true meaning of safety. [10:54] - Tension-free environments don't always lead to productive cultures: why disagreements are vital for meaningful discussions. [11:33] - Detaching personal worth from ideas so you can focus on finding the best solution (vital as the Scrum Master). [12:42] - How to facilitate conversations by focusing on facts and using visual aids to encourage objectively analyzing multiple ideas. [13:00] - Nurturing sensitive team members: strategies to create a sense of safety for individuals who are more susceptible to critique to ensure them of the value of their contributions. [14:13] - Why you should avoid labeling opinions as “wrong” and how assuming positive intent fosters a sense of safety. [14:45] - The challenge of assuming positive intent (especially in written communication). [15:21] - How to empower team members to define operating agreements that foster a sense of safety and a respectful working environment. [17:23] - This podcast is sponsored by Mountain Goat Software's Certified Scrum classes, including Certified Scrum Master (CSM), Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO), Advanced Certified Scrum Master (ACSM), and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner (ACSPO). Mike Cohn taught his first Scrum classes in 1997, and since then, more than 24K people have chosen to train with Mountain Goat Software. All certified classes include a twelve-month Agile Mentors Community membership. [18:08] - How to open communication lines when unintentional offenses occur during interactions. [18:49] - Scrum, though a simple framework, becomes complex when people's dynamics come into play. [19:22] - Brian shares that achieving psychological safety requires a cultural shift and agreement among team members to express opinions freely. [20:54] - Julie shares why psychological safety matters. [22:09] - When the swirl of uncertainty and lack of safety is removed, teams can accomplish more due to increased productivity and effectiveness. [22:34] - Brian shares some tips for Scrum Masters to make psychological safety a focal point if it is lacking within their teams. [23:40] - Julie discusses the importance of understanding and supporting team members beyond Scrum practices and offers advice on ensuring everyone on the team is heard. [25:15] - The secret to team cohesion: how sharing coffee preferences can build a sense of safety and collaboration within your team. [25:51] - Julie explores the challenge of fostering a sense of team and safety at the corporate level and why starting at the team level is the key to cultivating a culture of trust and psychological safety, even in the face of external obstacles. [27:31] - Julie delves into why teams work in a particular way and how aligning work practices with the desired outcomes can positively impact results. [28:04] - How fostering psychological safety improves human interactions and drives better products, higher quality, and faster delivery. [28:51] - How to address safety concerns with higher-ups. [29:53] - The dangers of dismantling high-performing teams prematurely: the importance of nurturing team cohesion and the pitfalls of overlooking this critical aspect. [30:42] - Brian shares how protecting the team sometimes involves making tough decisions and advocating for a better fit for both the individual and the team. [32:06] - Julie’s parting advice encourages teams to assess their current state, ask critical questions, and collaboratively work towards creating a more cohesive and psychologically safe environment. [33:06] - If you have feedback for the show or topics for future episodes, email us by clicking here. And don’t forget to subscribe to the “Agile Mentors” Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. [33:46] - Look for a different type of show coming to you during our July "break." References and resources mentioned in the show: The Culture Playbook: 60 Highly Effective Actions to Help Your Group Succeed Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Julie Chickering is the brains and brawn behind JC Agile Consulting, believes that Lean and Agile practices are packed with potential — to enable positive culture change, business agility, and breakthrough results. Julie is a past president and board member of the Agile Project Management Network (APLN), a Certified Scrum Trainer (CST), PMI Agile Certified Practitioner (PMI-ACP), as well as a traditional Project Management Professional (PMP).

Join Brian and his guest Lance Dacy as they explore the key differences, skill sets required, and the exciting opportunities in the roles of Scrum Master and Product Owner. Overview In this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast, Brian sits down with Lance Dacy to explore the dynamic roles of Scrum Master and Product Owner. They delve into the fundamental differences between these roles, highlighting the unique skill sets required for each. Lance shares his valuable insights and personal experiences, shedding light on the challenges and opportunities that arise in these pivotal positions. Whether you're considering a career in Agile or seeking to enhance your understanding of Scrum, listen in to this episode for practical advice and guidance for aspiring Scrum Masters and Product Owners and a deeper understanding of the crucial roles they play in driving successful projects and maximizing team productivity. Listen Now to Discover: [01:17] - Brian Milner has Lance Dacy on the show today to talk about a question emailed to the listener email address about the two different approaches to Scrum and which class would be a good fit for you, a Certified Scrum Master (CSM) or a Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO). [02:28] - Lance shares how he looks at the two different designations and what he looks at as the centerpiece of the process of Scrum. [03:24] - Things to consider when deciding whether the CSM or the CSPO is right for you. [04:34] - Where to start your Scrum journey as a beginner and when taking both the CSM and the Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO) classes might be beneficial. [05:28] - You don't have to be a Scrum Master to benefit from the CSM class. [05:54] - The dual focus of the Product Owner roles and the diminishment of Scrum roles. [06:45] - The challenge of combining these roles effectively. [07:54] - The goal is to be agile rather than just doing Scrum-Lance shares the importance of delivering value efficiently and early. Relegating the Scrum Master to facilitation and metrics tasks yields minimal ROI. [08:28] - Do you ever see the coach playing the game? [09:10] - Scrum is a tool - you have to know the tools, how to apply them, and, more importantly, how to use them for the appropriate case. [10:16] - The distinction between programmers (those who code) and developers (anyone working to produce the product) and a look back at the developer role in Scrum. [11:34] - What confuses most people about the different classes and roles. [12:28] - The importance (and top challenges teams face) of capacity planning, Sprint planning, and daily work management in Scrum teams. Lance shares why addressing these aspects is valuable for software and product teams, including marketing and infrastructure teams. [13:44] - The value of certifications as a standard and an advantage in certain situations, but it's like learning to drive - experience is crucial. [15:42] - The importance of learning the values, principles, and tools associated with Agile methodologies to engage in experimentation and gain practical experience, whether a CSM, CSPO, or CSV. [16:25] - How active involvement in user groups and communities (such as the DFW Scrum user group) provides valuable insights and career benefits, fostering collective knowledge sharing and continuous learning in Scrum (and beyond). [17:23] - Mountain Goat Software, the sponsor for this podcast, offers certified LIVE online Scrum classes, including Certified Scrum Master (CSM), Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO), Advanced Certified Scrum Master (ACSM) and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner (ACSPO) classes. Book more than three weeks in advance for an early bird discount of $100. [18:38] - Lance shares the three characteristics of a great product owner. [19:28] - Advice for what you should do if you’re starting from scratch and aiming to become a product owner to gain exposure and valuable experience in the field. [21:28] - The likelihood of moving from Scrum Master to product owner rather than vice versa. [22:47] - The four requirements of becoming a Scrum Master requires strong facilitation, teaching, mentoring, and coaching skills, and the demands of being a product owner that makes it a higher barrier for entry. [23:52] - The focus of a Scrum Master vs. a product owner. [24:48] - It's like being the Zamboni for a hockey team—as a Scrum Master, you have the opportunity to work in diverse industries, ranging from space science and astrophysics to finance and software development, without being an expert in those domains. [26:34] - A safer environment for experimentation and growth without the high stakes of individual accountability. [26:58] - Brian shares the primary determining factor in deciding between product owner or Scrum master. [27:51] - In the movie-making industry, like in software teams, there are distinct roles and responsibilities. You can choose to define the problem, manage the process, or contribute to building the product—pick your door and start running (and if you don't like it, you can always switch). [29:06] Real knowledge comes from doing, BUT a class can get you started on the right foot to understanding how to do things and getting your hands dirty to cement further what you want to do. [30:26] - Lance shares how obtaining a CSM or CSPO certification is like earning a black belt in karate—it's a pathway that empowers you to explore. [33:24] - Still on the fence? Send us a note, and we'll gladly help you find your path. [33:40] - Check out the Mountain Goat's training schedule to attend a class with Lance or Brian. [34:01] - Exciting news! We have introduced an Agile Professional Directory to our Agile Mentors community. As a member, you can now sign up and claim your certifications, allowing you to showcase your expertise when interacting with others on the site. [34:35] - Don’t forget, Mountain Goat Software offers a range of classes, including Certified Scrum Master (CSM), Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO), Advanced Certified Scrum Master (ACSM), and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner (ACSPO). We love having podcast listeners join our classes to explore further the topics discussed on the show (click here to subscribe). References and resources mentioned in the show: Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® #4: The Developer Role in Scrum with Sherman Gomberg DFW Scrum (Dallas, TX) | Meetup Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant's heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away.

Join Brian and his guest Lance Dacy as they explore the key differences, skill sets required, and the exciting opportunities in the roles of Scrum Master and Product Owner. Overview In this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast, Brian sits down with Lance Dacy to explore the dynamic roles of Scrum Master and Product Owner. They delve into the fundamental differences between these roles, highlighting the unique skill sets required for each. Lance shares his valuable insights and personal experiences, shedding light on the challenges and opportunities that arise in these pivotal positions. Whether you're considering a career in Agile or seeking to enhance your understanding of Scrum, listen in to this episode for practical advice and guidance for aspiring Scrum Masters and Product Owners and a deeper understanding of the crucial roles they play in driving successful projects and maximizing team productivity. Listen Now to Discover: [01:17] - Brian Milner has Lance Dacy on the show today to talk about a question emailed to the listener email address about the two different approaches to Scrum and which class would be a good fit for you, a Certified Scrum Master (CSM) or a Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO). [02:28] - Lance shares how he looks at the two different designations and what he looks at as the centerpiece of the process of Scrum. [03:24] - Things to consider when deciding whether the CSM or the CSPO is right for you. [04:34] - Where to start your Scrum journey as a beginner and when taking both the CSM and the Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO) classes might be beneficial. [05:28] - You don't have to be a Scrum Master to benefit from the CSM class. [05:54] - The dual focus of the Product Owner roles and the diminishment of Scrum roles. [06:45] - The challenge of combining these roles effectively. [07:54] - The goal is to be agile rather than just doing Scrum-Lance shares the importance of delivering value efficiently and early. Relegating the Scrum Master to facilitation and metrics tasks yields minimal ROI. [08:28] - Do you ever see the coach playing the game? [09:10] - Scrum is a tool - you have to know the tools, how to apply them, and, more importantly, how to use them for the appropriate case. [10:16] - The distinction between programmers (those who code) and developers (anyone working to produce the product) and a look back at the developer role in Scrum. [11:34] - What confuses most people about the different classes and roles. [12:28] - The importance (and top challenges teams face) of capacity planning, Sprint planning, and daily work management in Scrum teams. Lance shares why addressing these aspects is valuable for software and product teams, including marketing and infrastructure teams. [13:44] - The value of certifications as a standard and an advantage in certain situations, but it's like learning to drive - experience is crucial. [15:42] - The importance of learning the values, principles, and tools associated with Agile methodologies to engage in experimentation and gain practical experience, whether a CSM, CSPO, or CSV. [16:25] - How active involvement in user groups and communities (such as the DFW Scrum user group) provides valuable insights and career benefits, fostering collective knowledge sharing and continuous learning in Scrum (and beyond). [17:23] - Mountain Goat Software, the sponsor for this podcast, offers certified LIVE online Scrum classes, including Certified Scrum Master (CSM), Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO), Advanced Certified Scrum Master (ACSM) and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner (ACSPO) classes. Book more than three weeks in advance for an early bird discount of $100. [18:38] - Lance shares the three characteristics of a great product owner. [19:28] - Advice for what you should do if you’re starting from scratch and aiming to become a product owner to gain exposure and valuable experience in the field. [21:28] - The likelihood of moving from Scrum Master to product owner rather than vice versa. [22:47] - The four requirements of becoming a Scrum Master requires strong facilitation, teaching, mentoring, and coaching skills, and the demands of being a product owner that makes it a higher barrier for entry. [23:52] - The focus of a Scrum Master vs. a product owner. [24:48] - It's like being the Zamboni for a hockey team—as a Scrum Master, you have the opportunity to work in diverse industries, ranging from space science and astrophysics to finance and software development, without being an expert in those domains. [26:34] - A safer environment for experimentation and growth without the high stakes of individual accountability. [26:58] - Brian shares the primary determining factor in deciding between product owner or Scrum master. [27:51] - In the movie-making industry, like in software teams, there are distinct roles and responsibilities. You can choose to define the problem, manage the process, or contribute to building the product—pick your door and start running (and if you don't like it, you can always switch). [29:06] Real knowledge comes from doing, BUT a class can get you started on the right foot to understanding how to do things and getting your hands dirty to cement further what you want to do. [30:26] - Lance shares how obtaining a CSM or CSPO certification is like earning a black belt in karate—it's a pathway that empowers you to explore. [33:24] - Still on the fence? Send us a note, and we'll gladly help you find your path. [33:40] - Check out the Mountain Goat's training schedule to attend a class with Lance or Brian. [34:01] - Exciting news! We have introduced an Agile Professional Directory to our Agile Mentors community. As a member, you can now sign up and claim your certifications, allowing you to showcase your expertise when interacting with others on the site. [34:35] - Don’t forget, Mountain Goat Software offers a range of classes, including Certified Scrum Master (CSM), Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO), Advanced Certified Scrum Master (ACSM), and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner (ACSPO). We love having podcast listeners join our classes to explore further the topics discussed on the show (click here to subscribe). References and resources mentioned in the show: Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® #4: The Developer Role in Scrum with Sherman Gomberg DFW Scrum (Dallas, TX) | Meetup Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant's heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away.

Join Brian as he rediscovers and relives the most captivating topics, memorable guests, and impactful topics from the first year of the “Agile Mentors” podcast. Overview From deep dives into Agile methodologies and practical tips for using your knowledge to benefit others and foster change, the first 50 episodes of the “Agile Mentor” podcast have been filled with fascinating topics and memorable guests. In this episode, Brian Milner embarks on a retrospective journey through the inaugural year of the show. Listen in as he shares the real stars of the podcast, the moments that surprised him, those that took him out of his comfort zone, and the ones that inspired him to push to be better every day! Plus, what’s next for the show. Listen Now to Discover: [00:45] - Brian introduces the retrospective episode to celebrate one year and 50 episodes of the "Agile Mentors" podcast and share what's next. [01:54] - A thank you for YOUR role in the show. [02:17] - The role of marrying the right topic to the right guest. [02:56] - The format that allows listeners to choose the episodes that interest them the most. [04:03] - Pointing you toward the best of the best. Our first several episodes were focused on the Agile Framework and some core topics, including having Mike Cohn on to talk about the different roles and generally accepted practices. [05:13] - Sending out thanks to a few of our guests, including the trainers at Mountain Goat Software, including Lance Dacy. [05:45] - Kert Peterson joined us to share his knowledge, and Scott Dunn shared his insight from the product owner's perspective. [06:05] - On episode 16, Mitch Lacey joined us to discuss The Hidden Secret Ingredient And Julie Chickering brought a great perspective from a project management background and applying that to some of the stuff we've discussed here on the show. [06:39] - The time when one of my mentors joined us on the show to discuss transformation. [07:08] - Learning about coaching and marketing from the best! [07:27] - Roman Pitchler joined us to discuss product roadmaps and planning things from a product owner perspective. And John Miller shared about using Scrum in the education environment. [07:46] - On EP25, Henrik Nieberg came on and talked to us about scaling, and on EP27, Tricia Broderick walked us through leadership without blame. [08:18] - How Scrum can be applied outside of software development and mob programming. [08:42] - The key to working with humans. [09:03] - The episode that surprised Brian a little bit. [09:34] - Three episodes all about change: The first one was about how one organization uses Scrum to help impoverished micro-entrepreneurs succeed (and change their lives). The second featured Chris Li sharing his insight on how to know when it’s time to strike out on your own, and Karim Harbott walked us through the difficulty of transforming an organization's culture. [10:25] - The episode that inspired Brian to try to push in different ways to get better. And how to cultivate an Agile culture in a virtual world. [10:53] - Why transformations take people, how to assess a company’s culture before you accept their job offer, and lean thinking in Agile with Bob Payne. [11:49] - The real stars of the podcast. [12:30] - What’s ahead for the podcast? [13:02] - Stepping off the gas a bit. [13:45] - Virtual dial—targeted tips. [14:32] - The lifeblood of the “Agile Mentors” podcast. [15:06] - Mike Cohn and Brian are both presenting at Agile2023 in Orlando, July 24 through 28th. [15:39] - The most significant benefit of BIG conferences. [16:41] - Thank you for getting us to a year and 50 episodes! Join the Agile Mentors Community to continue the discussion. If you have topics for future episodes, email us by clicking here. And don’t forget to subscribe to the “Agile Mentors” Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. References and resources mentioned in the show: Agile2023 | Orlando, Florida | Agile Alliance #1: Scrum vs Agile & Keys to Success with Mike Cohn #3: What Makes a Great Product Owner? With Lance Dacy #9: Scrum Artifacts with Kert Peterson #10: Why User Stories are the Best Way to Capture Requirements with Mike Cohn #17: Getting There From Here: Agile Transformations with David Hawks #18 Coaching in an Agile World with Lyssa Adkins #21: Agile Marketing Teams with Stacey Ackerman #22: How to Create Helpful Product Roadmaps with Roman Pichler #23 How Agile Works in Education with John Miller #25: Scaling with Henrik Kniberg #27: Leading Without Blame with Tricia Broderick #29: Influencing Up with Scott Dunn #32: Scrum in High School Sports with Cort Sharp #33 Mob Programming with Woody Zuill #34: I'm Trained, Now What? with Julie Chickering #37: Servant Leadership, Not Spineless Leadership with Brad Swanson #38: Using Agile for Social and Societal Transformation with Kubair Shirazee #40: Is it Time to Go Out on Your Own? Tips and Insights with Chris Li #41: Cultural Transformation in Organizations with Karim Harbott #42: The Importance of Self-Mastery with Bob Galen #43: Cultivating Agile Team Culture in a Virtual World with Richard Cheng #44: Transformations Take People with Anu Smalley #46: How to Assess Company Culture Before Accepting a Job Offer with Christina Ambers #47: Exploring Lean Thinking in Agile Development with Bob Payne Mountain Good Software's Certified Product Owner course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

Join Brian as he rediscovers and relives the most captivating topics, memorable guests, and impactful topics from the first year of the “Agile Mentors” podcast. Overview From deep dives into Agile methodologies and practical tips for using your knowledge to benefit others and foster change, the first 50 episodes of the “Agile Mentor” podcast have been filled with fascinating topics and memorable guests. In this episode, Brian Milner embarks on a retrospective journey through the inaugural year of the show. Listen in as he shares the real stars of the podcast, the moments that surprised him, those that took him out of his comfort zone, and the ones that inspired him to push to be better every day! Plus, what’s next for the show. Listen Now to Discover: [00:45] - Brian introduces the retrospective episode to celebrate one year and 50 episodes of the "Agile Mentors" podcast and share what's next. [01:54] - A thank you for YOUR role in the show. [02:17] - The role of marrying the right topic to the right guest. [02:56] - The format that allows listeners to choose the episodes that interest them the most. [04:03] - Pointing you toward the best of the best. Our first several episodes were focused on the Agile Framework and some core topics, including having Mike Cohn on to talk about the different roles and generally accepted practices. [05:13] - Sending out thanks to a few of our guests, including the trainers at Mountain Goat Software, including Lance Dacy. [05:45] - Kert Peterson joined us to share his knowledge, and Scott Dunn shared his insight from the product owner's perspective. [06:05] - On episode 16, Mitch Lacey joined us to discuss The Hidden Secret Ingredient And Julie Chickering brought a great perspective from a project management background and applying that to some of the stuff we've discussed here on the show. [06:39] - The time when one of my mentors joined us on the show to discuss transformation. [07:08] - Learning about coaching and marketing from the best! [07:27] - Roman Pitchler joined us to discuss product roadmaps and planning things from a product owner perspective. And John Miller shared about using Scrum in the education environment. [07:46] - On EP25, Henrik Nieberg came on and talked to us about scaling, and on EP27, Tricia Broderick walked us through leadership without blame. [08:18] - How Scrum can be applied outside of software development and mob programming. [08:42] - The key to working with humans. [09:03] - The episode that surprised Brian a little bit. [09:34] - Three episodes all about change: The first one was about how one organization uses Scrum to help impoverished micro-entrepreneurs succeed (and change their lives). The second featured Chris Li sharing his insight on how to know when it’s time to strike out on your own, and Karim Harbott walked us through the difficulty of transforming an organization's culture. [10:25] - The episode that inspired Brian to try to push in different ways to get better. And how to cultivate an Agile culture in a virtual world. [10:53] - Why transformations take people, how to assess a company’s culture before you accept their job offer, and lean thinking in Agile with Bob Payne. [11:49] - The real stars of the podcast. [12:30] - What’s ahead for the podcast? [13:02] - Stepping off the gas a bit. [13:45] - Virtual dial—targeted tips. [14:32] - The lifeblood of the “Agile Mentors” podcast. [15:06] - Mike Cohn and Brian are both presenting at Agile2023 in Orlando, July 24 through 28th. [15:39] - The most significant benefit of BIG conferences. [16:41] - Thank you for getting us to a year and 50 episodes! Join the Agile Mentors Community to continue the discussion. If you have topics for future episodes, email us by clicking here. And don’t forget to subscribe to the “Agile Mentors” Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. References and resources mentioned in the show: Agile2023 | Orlando, Florida | Agile Alliance #1: Scrum vs Agile & Keys to Success with Mike Cohn #3: What Makes a Great Product Owner? With Lance Dacy #9: Scrum Artifacts with Kert Peterson #10: Why User Stories are the Best Way to Capture Requirements with Mike Cohn #17: Getting There From Here: Agile Transformations with David Hawks #18 Coaching in an Agile World with Lyssa Adkins #21: Agile Marketing Teams with Stacey Ackerman #22: How to Create Helpful Product Roadmaps with Roman Pichler #23 How Agile Works in Education with John Miller #25: Scaling with Henrik Kniberg #27: Leading Without Blame with Tricia Broderick #29: Influencing Up with Scott Dunn #32: Scrum in High School Sports with Cort Sharp #33 Mob Programming with Woody Zuill #34: I'm Trained, Now What? with Julie Chickering #37: Servant Leadership, Not Spineless Leadership with Brad Swanson #38: Using Agile for Social and Societal Transformation with Kubair Shirazee #40: Is it Time to Go Out on Your Own? Tips and Insights with Chris Li #41: Cultural Transformation in Organizations with Karim Harbott #42: The Importance of Self-Mastery with Bob Galen #43: Cultivating Agile Team Culture in a Virtual World with Richard Cheng #44: Transformations Take People with Anu Smalley #46: How to Assess Company Culture Before Accepting a Job Offer with Christina Ambers #47: Exploring Lean Thinking in Agile Development with Bob Payne Mountain Good Software's Certified Product Owner course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

Join Brian and his guests, Janet Gregory, and Lisa Crispin, as they share their expertise on integrating testing into Agile teams. Discover how to bridge the gap between programmers and testers for collaboration and success. Overview In this episode of the "Agile Mentors," Brian Milner sits down with Janet Gregory and Lisa Crispin, founders of Agile Testing Fellowship, to discuss integrating testing into Agile teams. They discuss the history of the divide between programmers and testers and the importance of collaboration and communication between the two groups. Listen in as they explore the different levels of holistic testing, the mindset shift needed for bug prevention, and the tools and strategies for planning and estimating testing activities. Plus, the role of AI in testing. Listen Now to Discover: [00:05] - Brian Milner introduces the guests for this episode, Janet Gregory and Lisa Crispin, who are advocates for integrating testing into Agile teams and the Founders of Agile Testing Fellowship. [02:25] - Lisa explains the most important goal for collaboration and success. [03:34] - Janet talks about the history of the gulf between programmers and testers. [05:09] - How to bridge the gap between programmers and testers and the value of collaboration. [07:29] - What the values of Agile and Extreme Programming emphasize. [09:49] - The mindset shift needed for bug prevention. [11:17] - Managers behaving badly—Brian shares a story about how measuring the wrong things can drive the wrong behaviors. [12:13] Brian discusses the micro view of testing instead of a system view. [12:17] How to handle intense forms of testing that take a long time to complete. [14:02] Janet explains the different levels of testing and that teams should determine where testing belongs based on when it can be performed earliest. [15:23] Avoiding a "hardening sprint." [16:48] Lisa shares how to use visual models like the agile testing quadrants and the holistic testing model to help plan and communicate the testing activities needed throughout the software development lifecycle. [17:25] The website where you can find the training written by Lisa and Janet, including “More Agile Testing” and “Agile Testing Condensed” (recently released), and where you can download the FREE Mini-book "Holistic Testing: Weave Quality into your Product." [18:29] - Brian introduces the sponsor for the podcast, Mountain Goat Software. If you are thinking about getting certified as a Scrum Master, check out the resources and training options where certification classes are available every week. [19:26] - The key to fitting testing into a normal sprint cycle and integrating testing with other system pieces. [20:52] - Janet shares a tip for ensuring testing is not overlooked. [20:59] - Lisa shares how to remind teams to do testing at the right time. [22:31] - Why have a visible reminder for testing? [23:54] - The importance of accounting for testing and not treating it as a separate thing to do. [24:37] - Lisa shares her experience using planning poker for estimation and her preference to get every story the same size so they can be completed in a day or two. [25:50] - Janet suggests sizing stories and estimating tasks, why she estimates her tasks herself, and what she’s learned in that process. [26:44] -How to reduce the time needed in estimation meetings: Lisa shares some insight to identify when a story is too big and needs to be split up. [27:35] - The importance of conversation and understanding to avoid creating a wall between programmers and testers during estimation. [28:03] - Another tool in the toolbox: how Chat GPT will revolutionize testing (and who it might replace). [29:01] - There will never be enough time to do all the testing required. [29:31] - Lisa highlights how AI as a tool saves time with testing and allows more time for critical thinking skills. [30:12] - The need for a human presence in the use of AI. [31:19] - Janet shares information about her and Lisa's two courses, Basic Strategies for Agile Teams and Holistic Testing for Continuous Delivery, based on the Holistic testing model of looking at testing activities throughout the software development lifecycle. These courses can be found here. [36:37] Lisa mentions that her book, “Assessing Agile Quality Practices” helps teams identify where they are and where they can improve, using a framework that looks at ten different quality aspects. Plus, information on the book they are working on now on how to facilitate an assessment. [39:03] - Brian provides a list of resources available from Lisa and Janet, including their books “Agile Testing Condensed: A Brief Introduction” “Agile Testing,” “More Agile Testing,” and Assessing Agile Quality Practices and their "Holistic Testing: Weave Quality into Your Product” free download. [40:14] - Join the Agile Mentors Community to continue the discussion. If you have topics for future episodes, email us by clicking here. And don’t forget to subscribe to the “Agile Mentors” Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. References and resources mentioned in the show: Agile Testing Fellowship Agile Testing - The Book Agile Testing Condensed: A Brief Introduction More Agile Testing Holistic Testing: Weave Quality into Your Product Assessing Agile Quality Practices Mountain Good Software's Advanced Certified Product Owner course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lisa Crispin is the Co-founder of the Agile Testing Fellowship, an author, and an Agile tester and coach, who helps practitioners deliver quality software frequently and sustainably. Janet Gregory is the Co-founder of the Agile Testing Fellowship, an author, and a consultant, specializing in building quality systems and helping companies promote agile quality processes.

Join Brian and his guests, Janet Gregory, and Lisa Crispin, as they share their expertise on integrating testing into Agile teams. Discover how to bridge the gap between programmers and testers for collaboration and success. Overview In this episode of the "Agile Mentors," Brian Milner sits down with Janet Gregory and Lisa Crispin, founders of Agile Testing Fellowship, to discuss integrating testing into Agile teams. They discuss the history of the divide between programmers and testers and the importance of collaboration and communication between the two groups. Listen in as they explore the different levels of holistic testing, the mindset shift needed for bug prevention, and the tools and strategies for planning and estimating testing activities. Plus, the role of AI in testing. Listen Now to Discover: [00:05] - Brian Milner introduces the guests for this episode, Janet Gregory and Lisa Crispin, who are advocates for integrating testing into Agile teams and the Founders of Agile Testing Fellowship. [02:25] - Lisa explains the most important goal for collaboration and success. [03:34] - Janet talks about the history of the gulf between programmers and testers. [05:09] - How to bridge the gap between programmers and testers and the value of collaboration. [07:29] - What the values of Agile and Extreme Programming emphasize. [09:49] - The mindset shift needed for bug prevention. [11:17] - Managers behaving badly—Brian shares a story about how measuring the wrong things can drive the wrong behaviors. [12:13] Brian discusses the micro view of testing instead of a system view. [12:17] How to handle intense forms of testing that take a long time to complete. [14:02] Janet explains the different levels of testing and that teams should determine where testing belongs based on when it can be performed earliest. [15:23] Avoiding a "hardening sprint." [16:48] Lisa shares how to use visual models like the agile testing quadrants and the holistic testing model to help plan and communicate the testing activities needed throughout the software development lifecycle. [17:25] The website where you can find the training written by Lisa and Janet, including “More Agile Testing” and “Agile Testing Condensed” (recently released), and where you can download the FREE Mini-book "Holistic Testing: Weave Quality into your Product." [18:29] - Brian introduces the sponsor for the podcast, Mountain Goat Software. If you are thinking about getting certified as a Scrum Master, check out the resources and training options where certification classes are available every week. [19:26] - The key to fitting testing into a normal sprint cycle and integrating testing with other system pieces. [20:52] - Janet shares a tip for ensuring testing is not overlooked. [20:59] - Lisa shares how to remind teams to do testing at the right time. [22:31] - Why have a visible reminder for testing? [23:54] - The importance of accounting for testing and not treating it as a separate thing to do. [24:37] - Lisa shares her experience using planning poker for estimation and her preference to get every story the same size so they can be completed in a day or two. [25:50] - Janet suggests sizing stories and estimating tasks, why she estimates her tasks herself, and what she’s learned in that process. [26:44] -How to reduce the time needed in estimation meetings: Lisa shares some insight to identify when a story is too big and needs to be split up. [27:35] - The importance of conversation and understanding to avoid creating a wall between programmers and testers during estimation. [28:03] - Another tool in the toolbox: how Chat GPT will revolutionize testing (and who it might replace). [29:01] - There will never be enough time to do all the testing required. [29:31] - Lisa highlights how AI as a tool saves time with testing and allows more time for critical thinking skills. [30:12] - The need for a human presence in the use of AI. [31:19] - Janet shares information about her and Lisa's two courses, Basic Strategies for Agile Teams and Holistic Testing for Continuous Delivery, based on the Holistic testing model of looking at testing activities throughout the software development lifecycle. These courses can be found here. [36:37] Lisa mentions that her book, “Assessing Agile Quality Practices” helps teams identify where they are and where they can improve, using a framework that looks at ten different quality aspects. Plus, information on the book they are working on now on how to facilitate an assessment. [39:03] - Brian provides a list of resources available from Lisa and Janet, including their books “Agile Testing Condensed: A Brief Introduction” “Agile Testing,” “More Agile Testing,” and Assessing Agile Quality Practices and their "Holistic Testing: Weave Quality into Your Product” free download. [40:14] - Join the Agile Mentors Community to continue the discussion. If you have topics for future episodes, email us by clicking here. And don’t forget to subscribe to the “Agile Mentors” Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. References and resources mentioned in the show: Agile Testing Fellowship Agile Testing - The Book Agile Testing Condensed: A Brief Introduction More Agile Testing Holistic Testing: Weave Quality into Your Product Assessing Agile Quality Practices Mountain Good Software's Advanced Certified Product Owner course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lisa Crispin is the Co-founder of the Agile Testing Fellowship, an author, and an Agile tester and coach, who helps practitioners deliver quality software frequently and sustainably. Janet Gregory is the Co-founder of the Agile Testing Fellowship, an author, and a consultant, specializing in building quality systems and helping companies promote agile quality processes.

Join Brian and his guest Bob Payne as they discuss the principles of lean thinking and how they apply to Agile methodologies. Overview In this episode of the “Agile Mentors” Podcast, Brian sits down with Bob Payne to discuss the intersection of Agile and lean thinking. As an experienced Agile coach and host of the “Agile Toolkit Podcast,” Bob shares his insights and offers practical tips for implementing lean thinking in your own team. Listen in as they explore the fundamental principles of lean thinking in Agile methodologies. They discuss managing flow, not workers, and the importance of continuous improvement and experimentation to achieve sustainable, high-quality results in your organization and success in today's fast-paced business environment. Listen Now to Discover: [01:23] - Brian welcomes Bob Payne, the Senior Vice President of Training and Coaching at Lithespeed, as well as the host of the “Agile Toolkit Podcast” and the Chairman of the Agile DC Conference. Bob is here to discuss lean systems and lean thinking. [03:57] - Bob explains how lean thinking is connected to Agile methods in knowledge work. [07:30] - Agile methods generate value through teamwork that ultimately ends up in the customer's hands, and lean thinking is the larger circle that encompasses these methods. [08:24] - Lean thinking involves discipline and continuous improvement, which are essential characteristics for any successful team. [10:30] - Lean thinking also considers the sustainability of the workforce—workers are seen as producing value, while management is there to create the system that makes them the most effective. [11:31] - Lean thinking provides inspiration for visual management systems (such as Kanban boards) to track work which is incredibly powerful (and were not invented by Agile methods). [11:47] - Lean didn't just appear out of thin air; it built off of multiple things. [12:17] - Lean principles are foundational, and empiricism is built into lean. [14:34] - Bob shares that visualizing work is crucial to managing it effectively and citing the example of Toyota's electronic boards. [15:52] - Managing the flow of work, not the workers. We aim for cross-functional, self-organizing teams in an Agile team to get the job done. [17:05] - Bob shares an analogy about the workflow in a coffee shop. [17:41] - Bob shares the lean thinking philosophy and discusses the use of on-demand planning and continuous improvement. [19:14] - Brian introduces the sponsor for the podcast, Mountain Goat Software, which offers various training options for Agile methodologies. You can find their training schedule here. [19:46] - The difference between fixing the system and fixing the people in terms of leadership— Brian highlights the importance of a holistic view of the organizational structure to support the work and the workers in lean thinking. [20:36] - Brian shares the importance of limiting work in process within Scrum. He shares his experiences with XP teams and emphasizes the need to identify blockages and fix the source, not (just) the symptom. [23:03] - Bob and Brian discuss how Agile methods often miss local optimization, focusing on fixing bottlenecks instead of making other parts of the process more efficient. [25:23] - Bob shares how the focus on DevOps and better tooling has enabled Agile teams to go faster while maintaining safety (and avoiding burnout). [26:30] - Bob shares a talk called "Project to Product: Practical Realities at Large Scale Enterprises,” Kevin Fisher gave at a DevOps conference about an end-to-end value stream analysis. [27:40] - Bob discusses the need for a shift towards prioritizing rapid building and getting products to market, as Jeff Patton and Marty Cagan advocate. [28:37] - Bottlenecks? What the Scrum Master should focus on. [29:27] -Understanding the theory and philosophy behind Agile rather than just focusing on the practices is important. Brian shares why he believes it's crucial to recognize that the system needs to be fixed, not the worker. [30:49] - Understanding the theory and philosophy behind Agile methodologies rather than just focusing on the practices for more successful teams is essential. [31:18] - Bob talks about how teams should experiment with different ways of doing things and shares the early Agilists were making stuff up and pulling together ideas that worked. He spends the first hour and a half of his classes talking about the history and mindset of Agile and lays out these principles with case studies. [35:24] - Check out Bob Payne’s work on his podcast, “Agile Toolkit Podcast,” and at Lithespeed. [36:08] - Join the Agile Mentors Community to continue the discussion. If you have topics for future episodes, email us by clicking here. And don’t forget to subscribe to the “Agile Mentors” Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. References and resources mentioned in the show: Lithespeed "Agile Toolkit Podcast” Agile DC Conference Project to Product: Practical Realities at Large Scale Enterprises Mountain Goat Software's Advanced Certified Product Owner course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Bob Payne is an industry-leading Lean+Agile Transformation leader with over 20 years of experience. He is the SVP of Enterprise Transformation at Lithespeed, the host of the “Agile Toolkit Podcast," and the Chair of the Agile DC Conference. With a wealth of practical experience, Bob has been a trusted advisor to executives, teams, and management at leading firms such as Walmart, National Geographic, and Samsung.

Join Brian and his guest Bob Payne as they discuss the principles of lean thinking and how they apply to Agile methodologies. Overview In this episode of the “Agile Mentors” Podcast, Brian sits down with Bob Payne to discuss the intersection of Agile and lean thinking. As an experienced Agile coach and host of the “Agile Toolkit Podcast,” Bob shares his insights and offers practical tips for implementing lean thinking in your own team. Listen in as they explore the fundamental principles of lean thinking in Agile methodologies. They discuss managing flow, not workers, and the importance of continuous improvement and experimentation to achieve sustainable, high-quality results in your organization and success in today's fast-paced business environment. Listen Now to Discover: [01:23] - Brian welcomes Bob Payne, the Senior Vice President of Training and Coaching at Lithespeed, as well as the host of the “Agile Toolkit Podcast” and the Chairman of the Agile DC Conference. Bob is here to discuss lean systems and lean thinking. [03:57] - Bob explains how lean thinking is connected to Agile methods in knowledge work. [07:30] - Agile methods generate value through teamwork that ultimately ends up in the customer's hands, and lean thinking is the larger circle that encompasses these methods. [08:24] - Lean thinking involves discipline and continuous improvement, which are essential characteristics for any successful team. [10:30] - Lean thinking also considers the sustainability of the workforce—workers are seen as producing value, while management is there to create the system that makes them the most effective. [11:31] - Lean thinking provides inspiration for visual management systems (such as Kanban boards) to track work which is incredibly powerful (and were not invented by Agile methods). [11:47] - Lean didn't just appear out of thin air; it built off of multiple things. [12:17] - Lean principles are foundational, and empiricism is built into lean. [14:34] - Bob shares that visualizing work is crucial to managing it effectively and citing the example of Toyota's electronic boards. [15:52] - Managing the flow of work, not the workers. We aim for cross-functional, self-organizing teams in an Agile team to get the job done. [17:05] - Bob shares an analogy about the workflow in a coffee shop. [17:41] - Bob shares the lean thinking philosophy and discusses the use of on-demand planning and continuous improvement. [19:14] - Brian introduces the sponsor for the podcast, Mountain Goat Software, which offers various training options for Agile methodologies. You can find their training schedule here. [19:46] - The difference between fixing the system and fixing the people in terms of leadership— Brian highlights the importance of a holistic view of the organizational structure to support the work and the workers in lean thinking. [20:36] - Brian shares the importance of limiting work in process within Scrum. He shares his experiences with XP teams and emphasizes the need to identify blockages and fix the source, not (just) the symptom. [23:03] - Bob and Brian discuss how Agile methods often miss local optimization, focusing on fixing bottlenecks instead of making other parts of the process more efficient. [25:23] - Bob shares how the focus on DevOps and better tooling has enabled Agile teams to go faster while maintaining safety (and avoiding burnout). [26:30] - Bob shares a talk called "Project to Product: Practical Realities at Large Scale Enterprises,” Kevin Fisher gave at a DevOps conference about an end-to-end value stream analysis. [27:40] - Bob discusses the need for a shift towards prioritizing rapid building and getting products to market, as Jeff Patton and Marty Cagan advocate. [28:37] - Bottlenecks? What the Scrum Master should focus on. [29:27] -Understanding the theory and philosophy behind Agile rather than just focusing on the practices is important. Brian shares why he believes it's crucial to recognize that the system needs to be fixed, not the worker. [30:49] - Understanding the theory and philosophy behind Agile methodologies rather than just focusing on the practices for more successful teams is essential. [31:18] - Bob talks about how teams should experiment with different ways of doing things and shares the early Agilists were making stuff up and pulling together ideas that worked. He spends the first hour and a half of his classes talking about the history and mindset of Agile and lays out these principles with case studies. [35:24] - Check out Bob Payne’s work on his podcast, “Agile Toolkit Podcast,” and at Lithespeed. [36:08] - Join the Agile Mentors Community to continue the discussion. If you have topics for future episodes, email us by clicking here. And don’t forget to subscribe to the “Agile Mentors” Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. References and resources mentioned in the show: Lithespeed "Agile Toolkit Podcast” Agile DC Conference Project to Product: Practical Realities at Large Scale Enterprises Mountain Goat Software's Advanced Certified Product Owner course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Bob Payne is an industry-leading Lean+Agile Transformation leader with over 20 years of experience. He is the SVP of Enterprise Transformation at Lithespeed, the host of the “Agile Toolkit Podcast," and the Chair of the Agile DC Conference. With a wealth of practical experience, Bob has been a trusted advisor to executives, teams, and management at leading firms such as Walmart, National Geographic, and Samsung.

Join Brian and guest Christina Ambers on this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast as they discuss the importance of asking the right questions during a job interview to determine if a company (and its culture) is a good fit for you. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian sits down with Christina Ambers to discuss the most important questions to ask during a job interview for an Agile role and the yellow and red flags to look out for. Listen in as Christina shares her insights on which questions to ask in order to probe deeper and better understand the company's values and culture to assess whether the role is a good fit for you as a candidate. Whether you're a job seeker or a hiring manager, this episode offers valuable insights into ensuring a good match between the company and the candidate. Listen Now to Discover: [01:13] - Brian welcomes Christina Ambers to the Agile Mentors podcast. Christina is an Agile Enthusiast, Enterprise Coach, Speaker, and owner of SMART ACE Formula. She’s also an active member of the Agile Mentors Community. Today we're discussing the topic of interview questions and why it's essential to ask questions during an interview. [02:31] - Christina explains how asking questions during an interview allows the candidate to interview the company to see if it's a good fit for you. [02:48] - Brian shares that having questions prepared shows a level of preparedness and readiness for the interview to determine if the company is the right fit for you, especially in today's job market with increased layoffs. [03:54] - How asking the right questions can save you from frustration and a dead-end career [05:01] - Christina shares a good starting point for asking questions that will help you determine what it's like to work at a company and help you get a sense of their culture. [05:35] - Brian shares a tip on weeding out vague answers about culture and offers a warning of what to look for as an indicator that the culture isn't great. [07:04] - Christina adds that if the interviewer relates culture to food or other benefits, it’s another warning sign that culture might not be taken seriously in the organization. [07:58] - Christina suggests that these red flags could also be opportunities to improve the company culture if it's an area you excel in, offering a chance to make a positive impact and provide you with some job security. [8:37] - Brian suggests asking a question that puts the interviewer at ease and helps them focus on the company's culture and offers an example [09:09] - Christina shares her favorite question to ask in an interview, sharing that this question helps her understand what the interviewer expects out of your role. [09:44] - Christina shares that if an organization's culture isn't conducive to improvement, that could be a red flag. [10:36] - More than just a warm body—why it's essential to clarify what is expected of your role BEFORE you take the job. [11:09] - How to avoid being the “new Dave.” [11:46] - Christina shares how asking questions about the outcomes and responsibilities of the role can help a candidate identify any hidden or unexpected aspects of the position that were not included in the job description. [12:30] - Asking the right questions to avoid misunderstandings (and wasted time and effort)— Brian shares his experience of being misled during the interview process by a company that claimed to be interested in agile methodology. [13:50] - How flipping the question can help clarify what outcomes they expect from the role, especially when talking to the team, to understand how to be successful in the position. [14:28] - Christina talks about clarifying whether the role is a replacement or a new role and how the company values the role. [15:04] - Christina shares her concern about the company's expectations being too high, especially for a new role. She suggests asking whether the company is ready for the change and how much they value the new position. [15:41] - Brian adds that asking how the team's performance is measured is essential. He recommends understanding what the company is trying to accomplish with the team. [16:49] - Christina shares some yellow flags that provide room to grow and an opportunity for coaching. [18:08] - Brian recommends asking how the company invests in employee growth to determine how they value individuals versus teams. [18:40] - Brian shares the sponsor for today’s episode, Mountain Goat Software's Certified Scrum Product Owner Training which teaches how to use the product backlog as a tool for project success. [19:17] - Christina talks about inquiring about how the company connects developers to actual customers. [20:36] - A passion for continuing education: Christina recommends asking about how the company values additional learning experiences and how they reward individuals versus teams for continuing education. [23:56] - Avoiding potential red flags. [24:46] - Christina suggests asking about the company's changes since COVID-19 to find out how they respond to significant disruption and delving into employee longevity. [25:58] - Brian emphasizes the importance of asking questions during the interview process to determine how Agile a company is right now and how they actually care for their employees vs. just what they can deliver. [27:44] - The value of talking to other employees in the company. [28:32] - How to determine how a company views work/life balance (and their flexibility for work from home). [29:35] - Probing a company's attitude towards offshore or outsourced employees in relation to their in-office employees before starting to work for them. [30:18] - Success isn't measured by simply sitting at a desk and typing—watching out for red flags indicating the company hasn't figured out what success means to its customers. [31:05] - Determining the Agile framework of your future team. [32:15] - What does Scrum mean to you—there might be more than one answer—how to find out and what follow-up questions to ask. [32:50] - Connect with Christina in the Agile Mentors Community or check out SMART ACE Formula. [33:39] - Join the Agile Mentors Community community to continue the discussion. If you have topics for future episodes, email us by clicking here. And don’t forget to Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. References and resources mentioned in the show: SMART ACE Formula Mountain Good Software's Certified Product Owner course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Christina Ambers is a certified Scrum Master, Agile, and Kanban Coach with over 16 years of experience in software development and transformations. She is passionate about unlocking agile potential, inspiring teams to succeed, and applies agility and lean concepts in her everyday life. Christina is a founding member of the SMART ACE Formula and has worked with companies of all sizes and industries to help teams collaborate and work more effectively.

Join Brian and guest Christina Ambers on this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast as they discuss the importance of asking the right questions during a job interview to determine if a company (and its culture) is a good fit for you. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian sits down with Christina Ambers to discuss the most important questions to ask during a job interview for an Agile role and the yellow and red flags to look out for. Listen in as Christina shares her insights on which questions to ask in order to probe deeper and better understand the company's values and culture to assess whether the role is a good fit for you as a candidate. Whether you're a job seeker or a hiring manager, this episode offers valuable insights into ensuring a good match between the company and the candidate. Listen Now to Discover: [01:13] - Brian welcomes Christina Ambers to the Agile Mentors podcast. Christina is an Agile Enthusiast, Enterprise Coach, Speaker, and owner of SMART ACE Formula. She’s also an active member of the Agile Mentors Community. Today we're discussing the topic of interview questions and why it's essential to ask questions during an interview. [02:31] - Christina explains how asking questions during an interview allows the candidate to interview the company to see if it's a good fit for you. [02:48] - Brian shares that having questions prepared shows a level of preparedness and readiness for the interview to determine if the company is the right fit for you, especially in today's job market with increased layoffs. [03:54] - How asking the right questions can save you from frustration and a dead-end career [05:01] - Christina shares a good starting point for asking questions that will help you determine what it's like to work at a company and help you get a sense of their culture. [05:35] - Brian shares a tip on weeding out vague answers about culture and offers a warning of what to look for as an indicator that the culture isn't great. [07:04] - Christina adds that if the interviewer relates culture to food or other benefits, it’s another warning sign that culture might not be taken seriously in the organization. [07:58] - Christina suggests that these red flags could also be opportunities to improve the company culture if it's an area you excel in, offering a chance to make a positive impact and provide you with some job security. [8:37] - Brian suggests asking a question that puts the interviewer at ease and helps them focus on the company's culture and offers an example [09:09] - Christina shares her favorite question to ask in an interview, sharing that this question helps her understand what the interviewer expects out of your role. [09:44] - Christina shares that if an organization's culture isn't conducive to improvement, that could be a red flag. [10:36] - More than just a warm body—why it's essential to clarify what is expected of your role BEFORE you take the job. [11:09] - How to avoid being the “new Dave.” [11:46] - Christina shares how asking questions about the outcomes and responsibilities of the role can help a candidate identify any hidden or unexpected aspects of the position that were not included in the job description. [12:30] - Asking the right questions to avoid misunderstandings (and wasted time and effort)— Brian shares his experience of being misled during the interview process by a company that claimed to be interested in agile methodology. [13:50] - How flipping the question can help clarify what outcomes they expect from the role, especially when talking to the team, to understand how to be successful in the position. [14:28] - Christina talks about clarifying whether the role is a replacement or a new role and how the company values the role. [15:04] - Christina shares her concern about the company's expectations being too high, especially for a new role. She suggests asking whether the company is ready for the change and how much they value the new position. [15:41] - Brian adds that asking how the team's performance is measured is essential. He recommends understanding what the company is trying to accomplish with the team. [16:49] - Christina shares some yellow flags that provide room to grow and an opportunity for coaching. [18:08] - Brian recommends asking how the company invests in employee growth to determine how they value individuals versus teams. [18:40] - Brian shares the sponsor for today’s episode, Mountain Goat Software's Certified Scrum Product Owner Training which teaches how to use the product backlog as a tool for project success. [19:17] - Christina talks about inquiring about how the company connects developers to actual customers. [20:36] - A passion for continuing education: Christina recommends asking about how the company values additional learning experiences and how they reward individuals versus teams for continuing education. [23:56] - Avoiding potential red flags. [24:46] - Christina suggests asking about the company's changes since COVID-19 to find out how they respond to significant disruption and delving into employee longevity. [25:58] - Brian emphasizes the importance of asking questions during the interview process to determine how Agile a company is right now and how they actually care for their employees vs. just what they can deliver. [27:44] - The value of talking to other employees in the company. [28:32] - How to determine how a company views work/life balance (and their flexibility for work from home). [29:35] - Probing a company's attitude towards offshore or outsourced employees in relation to their in-office employees before starting to work for them. [30:18] - Success isn't measured by simply sitting at a desk and typing—watching out for red flags indicating the company hasn't figured out what success means to its customers. [31:05] - Determining the Agile framework of your future team. [32:15] - What does Scrum mean to you—there might be more than one answer—how to find out and what follow-up questions to ask. [32:50] - Connect with Christina in the Agile Mentors Community or check out SMART ACE Formula. [33:39] - Join the Agile Mentors Community community to continue the discussion. If you have topics for future episodes, email us by clicking here. And don’t forget to Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. References and resources mentioned in the show: SMART ACE Formula Mountain Good Software's Certified Product Owner course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Christina Ambers is a certified Scrum Master, Agile, and Kanban Coach with over 16 years of experience in software development and transformations. She is passionate about unlocking agile potential, inspiring teams to succeed, and applies agility and lean concepts in her everyday life. Christina is a founding member of the SMART ACE Formula and has worked with companies of all sizes and industries to help teams collaborate and work more effectively.

Join Brian and guest Scott Dunn as they share practical tips on navigating the challenges and achieving success in implementing Agile practices in regulatory environments on this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast. Overview: In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian and Scott Dunn delve into the challenges of implementing Agile practices in regulatory environments. They discuss the importance of finding ways to work within regulatory frameworks, building trust with stakeholders, and adapting Agile principles to fit the unique needs of the organization. Listen in to discover practical strategies for navigating regulatory hurdles, effective communication with regulators and customers, and building a culture of continuous improvement in highly regulated industries. Listen Now to Discover: [01:30] - Brian welcomes Scott Dunn to the Agile Mentors podcast. Scott is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience. Today's show is focused on the listener-inspired topic of implementing Agile in regulatory environments. (If you want to hear something specific, you can email us at [email protected]). [02:31] - Change is hard. Sometimes you must dig deeper into the reasons for resistance, as it may not always be related to regulatory requirements. [03:09] - Scott shares his experience working in a compliance-heavy environment, noting that the people responsible for compliance may not always fully understand the regulations. [04:16] - Scott emphasizes the importance of researching the regulations independently. In his experience, mindset and willingness are key factors in successfully implementing Agile in regulatory environments. [06:05] - Brian shares an anecdote about a pushback he received in a private class about whether Agile principles would work in the real world. [07:59] - Scott shares a recent experience on a call with a Prime contractor for the government, where they discussed the government's modernization efforts and their shift towards agile methodologies. He also mentions the GSA's internal agile group, which requires funding recipients to adopt agile practices. [09:19] - The issue of government contracts requiring specific roles rather than generalists and how this can limit the implementation of agile practices. [10:20] - Scott discusses how contracts in government organizations can limit the ability to fully implement Agile principles and how to create change within their organizations. [11:33] - Brian discusses the idea that a transformation is an ongoing process and not something that can be checked off as completed. He talks about the importance of continual learning. [12:01] - Brian introduces the podcast sponsor, Mountain Good Software's Advanced Certified Product Owner course. He explains how the course can help product owners increase their confidence, credibility, and value. [12:39] - The importance of collaboration over contract negotiation: Brian shares a story about Michael Sahota, who worked with the Canadian government on a bidding contract and revolutionized the government's fixed bid system. [15:07] - Brian explains that while regulatory environments require more documentation, examining whether certain documentation is necessary is essential. [15:54] - The need for empathy and understanding when working with regulatory environments. [16:26] - Small nudges = Significant change. [19:45] - The challenge of testing in regulatory environments, particularly regarding validation. Brian shares a story about a client with FAA regulations and how they tackled the issue, emphasizing the importance of collaboration. [23:20] - Scott suggests a pragmatic approach to achieving work goals, acknowledging the external constraints that may prevent perfection. [24:09] - Scott further explains that in some cases, there may be a sliding scale of achieving different levels of agility. Even small incremental steps towards agile implementation can provide benefits. [25:37] - Brian shares what he considers the #1 win in implementing Agile into these types of environments. [26:57] - What's possible? If you fast forward a year from now, what could be done now that gets us to the next step? [28:10] - Think about how you are showing up: the importance of facilitating idea-generating conversations and the type of leadership it takes to start those conversations and helps make the right thing happen. [29:30] - Scott and Brian discuss the quote, "if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room," and how important it is to be around people who can push you and help you grow. [30:52] - Join the Agile Mentors Community community to continue the discussion. If you have topics for future episodes, email us at [email protected]. References and resources mentioned in the show: Mountain Goat Software's Advanced Certified Product Owner course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Agile Manifesto​​ Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ● Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ● Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum.

Join Brian and guest Scott Dunn as they share practical tips on navigating the challenges and achieving success in implementing Agile practices in regulatory environments on this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast. Overview: In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian and Scott Dunn delve into the challenges of implementing Agile practices in regulatory environments. They discuss the importance of finding ways to work within regulatory frameworks, building trust with stakeholders, and adapting Agile principles to fit the unique needs of the organization. Listen in to discover practical strategies for navigating regulatory hurdles, effective communication with regulators and customers, and building a culture of continuous improvement in highly regulated industries. Listen Now to Discover: [01:30] - Brian welcomes Scott Dunn to the Agile Mentors podcast. Scott is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience. Today's show is focused on the listener-inspired topic of implementing Agile in regulatory environments. (If you want to hear something specific, you can email us at [email protected]). [02:31] - Change is hard. Sometimes you must dig deeper into the reasons for resistance, as it may not always be related to regulatory requirements. [03:09] - Scott shares his experience working in a compliance-heavy environment, noting that the people responsible for compliance may not always fully understand the regulations. [04:16] - Scott emphasizes the importance of researching the regulations independently. In his experience, mindset and willingness are key factors in successfully implementing Agile in regulatory environments. [06:05] - Brian shares an anecdote about a pushback he received in a private class about whether Agile principles would work in the real world. [07:59] - Scott shares a recent experience on a call with a Prime contractor for the government, where they discussed the government's modernization efforts and their shift towards agile methodologies. He also mentions the GSA's internal agile group, which requires funding recipients to adopt agile practices. [09:19] - The issue of government contracts requiring specific roles rather than generalists and how this can limit the implementation of agile practices. [10:20] - Scott discusses how contracts in government organizations can limit the ability to fully implement Agile principles and how to create change within their organizations. [11:33] - Brian discusses the idea that a transformation is an ongoing process and not something that can be checked off as completed. He talks about the importance of continual learning. [12:01] - Brian introduces the podcast sponsor, Mountain Good Software's Advanced Certified Product Owner course. He explains how the course can help product owners increase their confidence, credibility, and value. [12:39] - The importance of collaboration over contract negotiation: Brian shares a story about Michael Sahota, who worked with the Canadian government on a bidding contract and revolutionized the government's fixed bid system. [15:07] - Brian explains that while regulatory environments require more documentation, examining whether certain documentation is necessary is essential. [15:54] - The need for empathy and understanding when working with regulatory environments. [16:26] - Small nudges = Significant change. [19:45] - The challenge of testing in regulatory environments, particularly regarding validation. Brian shares a story about a client with FAA regulations and how they tackled the issue, emphasizing the importance of collaboration. [23:20] - Scott suggests a pragmatic approach to achieving work goals, acknowledging the external constraints that may prevent perfection. [24:09] - Scott further explains that in some cases, there may be a sliding scale of achieving different levels of agility. Even small incremental steps towards agile implementation can provide benefits. [25:37] - Brian shares what he considers the #1 win in implementing Agile into these types of environments. [26:57] - What's possible? If you fast forward a year from now, what could be done now that gets us to the next step? [28:10] - Think about how you are showing up: the importance of facilitating idea-generating conversations and the type of leadership it takes to start those conversations and helps make the right thing happen. [29:30] - Scott and Brian discuss the quote, "if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room," and how important it is to be around people who can push you and help you grow. [30:52] - Join the Agile Mentors Community community to continue the discussion. If you have topics for future episodes, email us at [email protected]. References and resources mentioned in the show: Mountain Goat Software's Advanced Certified Product Owner course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Agile Manifesto​​ Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ● Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ● Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum.

In this episode of the “Agile Mentors” podcast, Brian and Anu Smalley share their perspectives on the relationship between culture and Agile transformation and why people are key. Overview Coaching an Agile transformation requires more than just knowing how to run a daily Scrum. Finding the right people for the job is critical to success. In this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast, Brian and Anu Smalley chat about the importance of diversity in Agile teams. Listen in as Brian and Anu explore how culture impacts an organization's ability to adopt Agile practices, the role of leaders in creating an inclusive culture, and the power of sharing stories in building a strong community. Listen Now to Discover: [01:17] - Brian introduces us to the guest, Anu Smalley, who has a lot of experience in Agile coaching and consulting. She’s also been instrumental in increasing diversity in the Agile community. She has a CST mentoring group for people who don't have the same background as the majority of people in the Scrum Alliance. Her company is Capala Consulting Group. [03:34] - Metrics and methodologies are important in organizational transformation, but people are at the heart of it. Organizations cannot successfully transform without the right people. [04:02] - Anu talks about how the Agile Manifesto emphasizes individuals and interactions as the key to success in transformation. She emphasizes the importance of having the right people in an organization to ensure a successful transformation. [05:07] - Coaching an Agile transformation requires more than just knowing how to run a daily Scrum. Finding the right people for the job is critical to success. [05:55] - Brian notes that some businesses see their employees as replaceable parts in a machine. A diversity of perspectives is essential; having only one perspective limits the team's potential. [06:52] - Each person is unique and cannot be replaced like a part in a machine. Anu stresses the importance of recognizing the human aspect of transformation to succeed and that metrics alone will not suffice. [07:48] - Brian discusses the comparison between Agile software development and research and development. Having the right people for the job is critical. [08:30] - Agile transformation requires a focus on people and coaching, and the framework will fall into place once that focus is in place. [09:14] - Anu highlights the importance of understanding what being Agile truly means rather than just knowing the techniques. [09:59] - Brian notes that while many attendees may attend Agile training classes solely for certification, trainers can use this opportunity to teach attendees a deeper understanding of Agile and transform their approach to work. [10:46] - Anu notes that there is a significant difference between implementing Scrum and transforming an organization—one can be learned in a two-day class, while the other requires a deeper understanding of what being Agile truly means. [12:02] - Focusing on people is the key to success in Agile transformation; without it, organizations will not get very far. [14:17] - Brian emphasizes the uniqueness of organizations and how Scrum is designed to be adjusted and custom fit for each group that uses it. [14:49] - Anu highlights the importance of role clarity for individuals and teams to minimize conflicts. [15:53] - The virtual world has made role clarity even more important. Anu shares an example of a client whose main focus for 2023 is to achieve role clarity amongst their teams, explaining what is essential to achieving this goal. [16:19] - Clarity is achieved by bringing people together, resolving conflicts, and working towards common goals. [16:19] - Anu emphasizes that coaching and resolving conflicts are key to achieving role clarity and smooth functioning among teams in an organization. [16:37] - Brian compares learning the basics of baseball to attending a class on Scrum—a class can teach you the basics—a coach is necessary to grow and improve. [17:50] - Anu shares that a coach is essential, even for the best sports people on the planet. [16:19] - Anu emphasizes the importance of role clarity and resolving conflicts in an organization to ensure everyone understands their role and works together effectively. [18:39] - Anu explains that the best players in any sport have personal coaches to keep them in the "being mode," focusing on the individual's growth to impact the company's growth. [19:33] - Brian highlights that even the best athletes in the world have coaches, and we should always keep growing and never stand still. [19:51] - Agile transformations are about the people we have—Anu reiterates the importance of focusing on individuals' growth to impact the company's growth. [20:12] - Leaders need to ensure they have the right people and are continuously teaching, coaching, and helping them move forward. [20:35] - Brian introduces the sponsor of the podcast, Mountain Goat Software's Certified ScrumMaster Class, and highlights its benefits for those interested in understanding Scrum. [23:34] - Anu shares examples of clients who have decided to combine roles or accountabilities due to budget cuts and how it impacts the Agile journey. [24:40] - Anu advises against continuing the Agile journey until it can be done properly. [25:43] - Leaders often make the mistake of not understanding the importance of ScrumMasters, but ScrumMasters do, in fact, provide value (a little sarcasm here). [26:00] - Without capable ScrumMasters, the transformation will stall or fail. [26:39] - Brian notes that even with capable ScrumMasters, leaders must trust and empower them to drive the transformation forward. [27:02] - Culture is all about people; if you don't have a culture supporting Agile transformation, it won't go anywhere. [27:55] - Talking about trust issues between leadership and teams. [28:55] - Anu explains that some leaders may have talented staff, but they are too scared to trust them with an Agile transformation because they are worried about the culture and power structure changes. [29:35] - Brian suggests an innovation initiative, to which Anu sarcastically proposes an innovation sprint as a solution. [29:47] - Brian encourages listeners to contact Anu through LinkedIn or through the website of her company, Capala Consulting Group. [30:52] - Anu invites listeners to share their Agile transformation stories with her and promotes the importance of building a community through shared experiences. [32:58] - The value of learning from different cultural perspectives. [33:17] - Brian invites you to share your ideas for the show or feedback. Email Brian. References and resources mentioned in the show: Capala Consulting Group Mountain Goat Software's Certified ScrumMaster Class Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Agile Manifesto​​ Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Anu Smalley is the President and Founder of Capala Consulting Group, where she specializes in Executive Coaching and Agile Transformations. She is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Certified Scrum Trainer®. She’s an active member of the larger Scrum and Agile community and enjoys giving back via volunteering at various conferences.

In this episode of the “Agile Mentors” podcast, Brian and Anu Smalley share their perspectives on the relationship between culture and Agile transformation and why people are key. Overview Coaching an Agile transformation requires more than just knowing how to run a daily Scrum. Finding the right people for the job is critical to success. In this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast, Brian and Anu Smalley chat about the importance of diversity in Agile teams. Listen in as Brian and Anu explore how culture impacts an organization's ability to adopt Agile practices, the role of leaders in creating an inclusive culture, and the power of sharing stories in building a strong community. Listen Now to Discover: [01:17] - Brian introduces us to the guest, Anu Smalley, who has a lot of experience in Agile coaching and consulting. She’s also been instrumental in increasing diversity in the Agile community. She has a CST mentoring group for people who don't have the same background as the majority of people in the Scrum Alliance. Her company is Capala Consulting Group. [03:34] - Metrics and methodologies are important in organizational transformation, but people are at the heart of it. Organizations cannot successfully transform without the right people. [04:02] - Anu talks about how the Agile Manifesto emphasizes individuals and interactions as the key to success in transformation. She emphasizes the importance of having the right people in an organization to ensure a successful transformation. [05:07] - Coaching an Agile transformation requires more than just knowing how to run a daily Scrum. Finding the right people for the job is critical to success. [05:55] - Brian notes that some businesses see their employees as replaceable parts in a machine. A diversity of perspectives is essential; having only one perspective limits the team's potential. [06:52] - Each person is unique and cannot be replaced like a part in a machine. Anu stresses the importance of recognizing the human aspect of transformation to succeed and that metrics alone will not suffice. [07:48] - Brian discusses the comparison between Agile software development and research and development. Having the right people for the job is critical. [08:30] - Agile transformation requires a focus on people and coaching, and the framework will fall into place once that focus is in place. [09:14] - Anu highlights the importance of understanding what being Agile truly means rather than just knowing the techniques. [09:59] - Brian notes that while many attendees may attend Agile training classes solely for certification, trainers can use this opportunity to teach attendees a deeper understanding of Agile and transform their approach to work. [10:46] - Anu notes that there is a significant difference between implementing Scrum and transforming an organization—one can be learned in a two-day class, while the other requires a deeper understanding of what being Agile truly means. [12:02] - Focusing on people is the key to success in Agile transformation; without it, organizations will not get very far. [14:17] - Brian emphasizes the uniqueness of organizations and how Scrum is designed to be adjusted and custom fit for each group that uses it. [14:49] - Anu highlights the importance of role clarity for individuals and teams to minimize conflicts. [15:53] - The virtual world has made role clarity even more important. Anu shares an example of a client whose main focus for 2023 is to achieve role clarity amongst their teams, explaining what is essential to achieving this goal. [16:19] - Clarity is achieved by bringing people together, resolving conflicts, and working towards common goals. [16:19] - Anu emphasizes that coaching and resolving conflicts are key to achieving role clarity and smooth functioning among teams in an organization. [16:37] - Brian compares learning the basics of baseball to attending a class on Scrum—a class can teach you the basics—a coach is necessary to grow and improve. [17:50] - Anu shares that a coach is essential, even for the best sports people on the planet. [16:19] - Anu emphasizes the importance of role clarity and resolving conflicts in an organization to ensure everyone understands their role and works together effectively. [18:39] - Anu explains that the best players in any sport have personal coaches to keep them in the "being mode," focusing on the individual's growth to impact the company's growth. [19:33] - Brian highlights that even the best athletes in the world have coaches, and we should always keep growing and never stand still. [19:51] - Agile transformations are about the people we have—Anu reiterates the importance of focusing on individuals' growth to impact the company's growth. [20:12] - Leaders need to ensure they have the right people and are continuously teaching, coaching, and helping them move forward. [20:35] - Brian introduces the sponsor of the podcast, Mountain Goat Software's Certified ScrumMaster Class, and highlights its benefits for those interested in understanding Scrum. [23:34] - Anu shares examples of clients who have decided to combine roles or accountabilities due to budget cuts and how it impacts the Agile journey. [24:40] - Anu advises against continuing the Agile journey until it can be done properly. [25:43] - Leaders often make the mistake of not understanding the importance of ScrumMasters, but ScrumMasters do, in fact, provide value (a little sarcasm here). [26:00] - Without capable ScrumMasters, the transformation will stall or fail. [26:39] - Brian notes that even with capable ScrumMasters, leaders must trust and empower them to drive the transformation forward. [27:02] - Culture is all about people; if you don't have a culture supporting Agile transformation, it won't go anywhere. [27:55] - Talking about trust issues between leadership and teams. [28:55] - Anu explains that some leaders may have talented staff, but they are too scared to trust them with an Agile transformation because they are worried about the culture and power structure changes. [29:35] - Brian suggests an innovation initiative, to which Anu sarcastically proposes an innovation sprint as a solution. [29:47] - Brian encourages listeners to contact Anu through LinkedIn or through the website of her company, Capala Consulting Group. [30:52] - Anu invites listeners to share their Agile transformation stories with her and promotes the importance of building a community through shared experiences. [32:58] - The value of learning from different cultural perspectives. [33:17] - Brian invites you to share your ideas for the show or feedback. Email Brian. References and resources mentioned in the show: Capala Consulting Group Mountain Goat Software's Certified ScrumMaster Class Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Agile Manifesto​​ Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Anu Smalley is the President and Founder of Capala Consulting Group, where she specializes in Executive Coaching and Agile Transformations. She is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Certified Scrum Trainer®. She’s an active member of the larger Scrum and Agile community and enjoys giving back via volunteering at various conferences.

In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian and Richard Cheng discuss the challenges of working in a virtual environment, sharing insights and strategies for maintaining team collaboration and communication. Listen in for practical tips and expert advice on navigating the changing landscape of remote work. Overview In this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast, Brian and Richard Cheng discuss the challenges and opportunities of the ever-evolving world of remote work in Agile teams and the role of technology in supporting Agile practices. Listen in as they share their insights on the tools to use, how to maintain team cohesion and collaboration, and the importance of culture and personal connections. You'll find practical tips and inspiring ideas to help you navigate the virtual landscape and thrive in the new normal of work. Listen Now to Discover: [01:14] - Brian introduces Richard Cheng, founder of Agility Prime Solutions, trainer, teaching CSM, product owner, and combat classes. He is also working on a graphic novel about the adventures of a scrum master. He's here today to discuss the challenges of working.‌ [04:16] - Richard highlights the significant shift towards virtual work that was already happening before the pandemic and the adoption of virtual work tools such as Zoom, Miro, and Slack, which made the transition easier during the pandemic. [06:22] - Richard emphasizes the importance of using tools that foster better communication and collaboration rather than replacing them. The tools and policies around them should enable people to work better together rather than create more distance. [07:08] - Richard is relatively agnostic regarding specific tools, but he mentions that he is a huge fan of Zoom for instruction and prefers Miro or Mural for collaboration. [08:03] - Brian tends to use Mural but also acknowledges the benefits of Miro (and shares a fun fact about Miro). [09:42] - Brian advises against letting the tool drive the collaboration process and instead focusing on conversations and collaboration first, then finding tools that enhance that process. [11:00] - Richard agrees with the idea that tools should not drive the team's workflow, but rather the team should drive the tools using the example of Jira™. He advises teams to tailor their tools to support their evolving needs. [12:46] - Brian acknowledges the importance of standardization in big enterprises and advises teams to refer to items in their terms to better align with their workflow. [14:20] - Brian shares why tools that allow deep customization are enormously useful because you can implement a wealth of plugins. [15:01] - The key to keeping it simple—strip it down to the bare bones and then grow it. Richard shares an example from the best Agile shop he ever worked at, The Motley Fool, and their tools, including Bugzilla. [16:00] - Brian shares the sponsor for the podcast, Mountain Goat Software, and the team home software they use for their Agile and Scrum Training. [18:39] - Richard discusses the virtual challenges of creating culture and teamwork, including communication, collaboration, and cross-functionality. [19:15] - The new frontier for companies: experimenting with different methods is essential while adapting methods to make them more effective. [20:46] - Richard discusses the issue with the Scrum guide's statement that Scrum is immutable, stating that once you're an expert, you should take what works and tweak what doesn't, drawing on an analogy about CrossFit, where workouts can be scaled up or down, and suggest that Scrum should be approached similarly. [23:48] - Promoting conversation and collaboration between teams, which is a big issue for many teams in the virtual world. Brian points out that time zone differences can be a problem. People on the other side of the globe must experiment more with asynchronous tools to communicate and collaborate effectively. [24:49] - Collaboration is less about geography and more about times. He promotes time zone friendliness to enable teams to collaborate more effectively and independently. Richard recommends setting up time zone-aligned value streams to improve product and service delivery speed, particularly for organizations with teams in multiple time zones. [26:25] - Brian emphasizes the importance of maintaining company culture in a virtual environment. He recommends virtual show-and-tell sessions to build a deeper connection among team members. [27:51] - Richard suggests that events such as game nights and virtual chocolate tastings can help bring teams and organizations closer together, even in a virtual environment. At the same time, optional in-person events for geographically connected teams can also be a good way to foster a sense of togetherness and culture. [29:15] - To help improve communication and strengthen the team's dynamics, create user manuals for team members: that includes their background, contributions to the team, and [30:37] - As a Scrum Master and Coach, being there and having osmotic communication was a big part of the job. Without it, we have to engineer everything, which can be challenging. [31:30] - Brian acknowledges that technology is rapidly changing but emphasizes the importance of not letting the tool drive the conversation. Instead, he suggests promoting collaboration and enabling teams to work better through policies and practices that bring the team together and rethink those that separate them. [32:56] - You can learn more about Richard and his classes at Agility Prime Solutions or email him at [email protected]. [34:24] -Join the Agile Mentors Community for further discussion, and if you have an idea for the show or feedback, we'd love to hear from you. Email Brian. References and resources mentioned in the show: Agility Prime Solutions Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Mural Miro Jira Bugzilla Private Virtual Chocolate Tastings– Bar & Cocoa You Don't Know Jack Party Packs ​​ Join the Agile Mentors Community Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Richard Cheng is the founder of Agility Prime Solutions, which provides training programs that focus on Agile, Scrum, Kanban, and Product Management. Richard is a founder and was an executive committee member of the Agile Delivery for Agencies, Programs, and Teams (ADAPT), an Agile government task force.

In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian and Richard Cheng discuss the challenges of working in a virtual environment, sharing insights and strategies for maintaining team collaboration and communication. Listen in for practical tips and expert advice on navigating the changing landscape of remote work. Overview In this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast, Brian and Richard Cheng discuss the challenges and opportunities of the ever-evolving world of remote work in Agile teams and the role of technology in supporting Agile practices. Listen in as they share their insights on the tools to use, how to maintain team cohesion and collaboration, and the importance of culture and personal connections. You'll find practical tips and inspiring ideas to help you navigate the virtual landscape and thrive in the new normal of work. Listen Now to Discover: [01:14] - Brian introduces Richard Cheng, founder of Agility Prime Solutions, trainer, teaching CSM, product owner, and combat classes. He is also working on a graphic novel about the adventures of a scrum master. He's here today to discuss the challenges of working.‌ [04:16] - Richard highlights the significant shift towards virtual work that was already happening before the pandemic and the adoption of virtual work tools such as Zoom, Miro, and Slack, which made the transition easier during the pandemic. [06:22] - Richard emphasizes the importance of using tools that foster better communication and collaboration rather than replacing them. The tools and policies around them should enable people to work better together rather than create more distance. [07:08] - Richard is relatively agnostic regarding specific tools, but he mentions that he is a huge fan of Zoom for instruction and prefers Miro or Mural for collaboration. [08:03] - Brian tends to use Mural but also acknowledges the benefits of Miro (and shares a fun fact about Miro). [09:42] - Brian advises against letting the tool drive the collaboration process and instead focusing on conversations and collaboration first, then finding tools that enhance that process. [11:00] - Richard agrees with the idea that tools should not drive the team's workflow, but rather the team should drive the tools using the example of Jira™. He advises teams to tailor their tools to support their evolving needs. [12:46] - Brian acknowledges the importance of standardization in big enterprises and advises teams to refer to items in their terms to better align with their workflow. [14:20] - Brian shares why tools that allow deep customization are enormously useful because you can implement a wealth of plugins. [15:01] - The key to keeping it simple—strip it down to the bare bones and then grow it. Richard shares an example from the best Agile shop he ever worked at, The Motley Fool, and their tools, including Bugzilla. [16:00] - Brian shares the sponsor for the podcast, Mountain Goat Software, and the team home software they use for their Agile and Scrum Training. [18:39] - Richard discusses the virtual challenges of creating culture and teamwork, including communication, collaboration, and cross-functionality. [19:15] - The new frontier for companies: experimenting with different methods is essential while adapting methods to make them more effective. [20:46] - Richard discusses the issue with the Scrum guide's statement that Scrum is immutable, stating that once you're an expert, you should take what works and tweak what doesn't, drawing on an analogy about CrossFit, where workouts can be scaled up or down, and suggest that Scrum should be approached similarly. [23:48] - Promoting conversation and collaboration between teams, which is a big issue for many teams in the virtual world. Brian points out that time zone differences can be a problem. People on the other side of the globe must experiment more with asynchronous tools to communicate and collaborate effectively. [24:49] - Collaboration is less about geography and more about times. He promotes time zone friendliness to enable teams to collaborate more effectively and independently. Richard recommends setting up time zone-aligned value streams to improve product and service delivery speed, particularly for organizations with teams in multiple time zones. [26:25] - Brian emphasizes the importance of maintaining company culture in a virtual environment. He recommends virtual show-and-tell sessions to build a deeper connection among team members. [27:51] - Richard suggests that events such as game nights and virtual chocolate tastings can help bring teams and organizations closer together, even in a virtual environment. At the same time, optional in-person events for geographically connected teams can also be a good way to foster a sense of togetherness and culture. [29:15] - To help improve communication and strengthen the team's dynamics, create user manuals for team members: that includes their background, contributions to the team, and [30:37] - As a Scrum Master and Coach, being there and having osmotic communication was a big part of the job. Without it, we have to engineer everything, which can be challenging. [31:30] - Brian acknowledges that technology is rapidly changing but emphasizes the importance of not letting the tool drive the conversation. Instead, he suggests promoting collaboration and enabling teams to work better through policies and practices that bring the team together and rethink those that separate them. [32:56] - You can learn more about Richard and his classes at Agility Prime Solutions or email him at [email protected]. [34:24] -Join the Agile Mentors Community for further discussion, and if you have an idea for the show or feedback, we'd love to hear from you. Email Brian. References and resources mentioned in the show: Agility Prime Solutions Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Mural Miro Jira Bugzilla Private Virtual Chocolate Tastings– Bar & Cocoa You Don't Know Jack Party Packs ​​ Join the Agile Mentors Community Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Richard Cheng is the founder of Agility Prime Solutions, which provides training programs that focus on Agile, Scrum, Kanban, and Product Management. Richard is a founder and was an executive committee member of the Agile Delivery for Agencies, Programs, and Teams (ADAPT), an Agile government task force.

Join Brian and Bob Galen, Agile Coach and author, as they explore the significance of self-mastery in leadership and coaching. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian and Bob Galen, Agile Coach, author, and podcast host, discuss the importance of self-mastery for leaders and coaches. Bob emphasizes the significance of self-reflection, journaling, and introspection as tools to mine valuable information from one's history in order to move forward successfully. Listen in to understand the crucial role emotional intelligence and self-mastery play in leadership and coaching and how one can balance their needs with those of the team and organization. Listen Now to discover: [01:09] - Brian welcomes Bob Galen as a special guest on the podcast. [01:30] - Brian and Bob discuss the concept of inside-out mastery for an agile coach. [02:32] - Bob explains that the agile coaching growth wheel emphasizes self-mastery as a central aspect for coaches to consider. [03:42] - Self-mastery is a mindset that emphasizes coaching from the inside-out. It includes coaching presence, listening skills, and self-care. [05:00] - Bob emphasizes the importance of having a coach and active mentors to improve self-mastery and humility. [07:40] - Bob discusses the importance of continuous improvement of agile coaches and leaders for self-mastery and shares his own journey. [09:12] - Bob emphasizes the importance of becoming a "feedback sponge" and activating self-awareness as a critical part of self-mastery for agile coaches while activating assessments to understand how they are perceived. [09:53] - Developing emotional intelligence—a critical aspect of self-mastery. [10:03] - Brian compares the concept of self-awareness to a principle in acting called "intention versus action." He explains that understanding the intention behind someone's actions is important for interactions with others. [11:21] - Bob describes the concept of "meta skills," or mindsets that guide how coaches should show up with clients. [13:02] - Bob suggests that coaches should take 5 minutes before coaching conversations to "clean themselves up" and get rid of biases and baggage. [14:48] - Brian shares his approach to coaching when he’s had a bad day. [15:09] - Why it’s important to show vulnerability as a coach, even though it can be challenging and how that creates space for clients to do the same. [16:50] - Bob emphasizes the importance of modeling and how it can be used to highlight certain behaviors or values. [17:39] - Brian adds that self-awareness is crucial for effective modeling and coaching and shares an example where he dropped the ball on that and how he corrected his behavior. [18:38] - The power of modeling in coaching and the importance of making a conscious choice to model positive behavior. [19:18] - Brian shares the sponsor for the podcast, Better User Stories, a one-day live online training course with Mike Cohn to improve your user story writing, so your team can do its best work, faster. [19:59] - Bob shares the importance of journaling for capturing observations and reflecting on experiences to improve future behavior and why he requires it in his leadership class. [21:03] -The journal is like breadcrumbs, not just for the past, but the future. [21:16] - Brian shares his own experience with journaling and why he considers it a crucial tool in coaching. [23:48] - How wonderful it would be if leaders felt comfortable enough to model their vulnerability to their organizations. [24:03] - Leadership sometimes feels like putting on a brave face and being a strong presence, but vulnerability can actually create more safety and change the ecosystem in a positive way. [25:15] - Bob shares that showing humanity can be a real advantage in creating a resilient organization and shaping its culture. [26:44] - Brian reflects on how his actions as a leader shaped the culture of the organization (even when actions went against traditional ideas of what a leader should do). [27:35] - Bob shares an example of how journaling helped a young lady who was struggling with her job to go back and mine her history for valuable information. [29:36] - Brian reflects on the importance of reflection and learning from past failures. [30:02] - Bob brings home the concept of historical learning and self-mastery through journaling and reflection. [30:28] - Check out Bob's podcast, “Meta-Cast.” [34:09] -Join the Agile Mentors Community for further discussion, and if you have an idea for the show or feedback, we'd love to hear from you. Email Brian. References and resources mentioned in the show: Meta-Cast Mountain Goat Software's Better User Stories cORSC - CRR Global The Agile Coaching Growth Wheel | Scrum Alliance Join the Agile Mentors Community Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Bob Galen is a renowned Agile coach, speaker, and author with over 30 years of experience in software development. He has authored books such as “Extraordinarily Badass Agile Coaching:The Journey From Beginning to Mastery and Beyond,” "Scrum Product Ownership - Balancing Value from the Inside Out" and "Three Pillars of Agile Quality and Testing.” He frequently speaks at Agile conferences and events, sharing his knowledge and experiences in Agile testing and coaching. You can listen to him on his podcast, Meta-Cast.

Join Brian and Bob Galen, Agile Coach and author, as they explore the significance of self-mastery in leadership and coaching. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian and Bob Galen, Agile Coach, author, and podcast host, discuss the importance of self-mastery for leaders and coaches. Bob emphasizes the significance of self-reflection, journaling, and introspection as tools to mine valuable information from one's history in order to move forward successfully. Listen in to understand the crucial role emotional intelligence and self-mastery play in leadership and coaching and how one can balance their needs with those of the team and organization. Listen Now to discover: [01:09] - Brian welcomes Bob Galen as a special guest on the podcast. [01:30] - Brian and Bob discuss the concept of inside-out mastery for an agile coach. [02:32] - Bob explains that the agile coaching growth wheel emphasizes self-mastery as a central aspect for coaches to consider. [03:42] - Self-mastery is a mindset that emphasizes coaching from the inside-out. It includes coaching presence, listening skills, and self-care. [05:00] - Bob emphasizes the importance of having a coach and active mentors to improve self-mastery and humility. [07:40] - Bob discusses the importance of continuous improvement of agile coaches and leaders for self-mastery and shares his own journey. [09:12] - Bob emphasizes the importance of becoming a "feedback sponge" and activating self-awareness as a critical part of self-mastery for agile coaches while activating assessments to understand how they are perceived. [09:53] - Developing emotional intelligence—a critical aspect of self-mastery. [10:03] - Brian compares the concept of self-awareness to a principle in acting called "intention versus action." He explains that understanding the intention behind someone's actions is important for interactions with others. [11:21] - Bob describes the concept of "meta skills," or mindsets that guide how coaches should show up with clients. [13:02] - Bob suggests that coaches should take 5 minutes before coaching conversations to "clean themselves up" and get rid of biases and baggage. [14:48] - Brian shares his approach to coaching when he’s had a bad day. [15:09] - Why it’s important to show vulnerability as a coach, even though it can be challenging and how that creates space for clients to do the same. [16:50] - Bob emphasizes the importance of modeling and how it can be used to highlight certain behaviors or values. [17:39] - Brian adds that self-awareness is crucial for effective modeling and coaching and shares an example where he dropped the ball on that and how he corrected his behavior. [18:38] - The power of modeling in coaching and the importance of making a conscious choice to model positive behavior. [19:18] - Brian shares the sponsor for the podcast, Better User Stories, a one-day live online training course with Mike Cohn to improve your user story writing, so your team can do its best work, faster. [19:59] - Bob shares the importance of journaling for capturing observations and reflecting on experiences to improve future behavior and why he requires it in his leadership class. [21:03] -The journal is like breadcrumbs, not just for the past, but the future. [21:16] - Brian shares his own experience with journaling and why he considers it a crucial tool in coaching. [23:48] - How wonderful it would be if leaders felt comfortable enough to model their vulnerability to their organizations. [24:03] - Leadership sometimes feels like putting on a brave face and being a strong presence, but vulnerability can actually create more safety and change the ecosystem in a positive way. [25:15] - Bob shares that showing humanity can be a real advantage in creating a resilient organization and shaping its culture. [26:44] - Brian reflects on how his actions as a leader shaped the culture of the organization (even when actions went against traditional ideas of what a leader should do). [27:35] - Bob shares an example of how journaling helped a young lady who was struggling with her job to go back and mine her history for valuable information. [29:36] - Brian reflects on the importance of reflection and learning from past failures. [30:02] - Bob brings home the concept of historical learning and self-mastery through journaling and reflection. [30:28] - Check out Bob's podcast, “Meta-Cast.” [34:09] -Join the Agile Mentors Community for further discussion, and if you have an idea for the show or feedback, we'd love to hear from you. Email Brian. References and resources mentioned in the show: Meta-Cast Mountain Goat Software's Better User Stories cORSC - CRR Global The Agile Coaching Growth Wheel | Scrum Alliance Join the Agile Mentors Community Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Bob Galen is a renowned Agile coach, speaker, and author with over 30 years of experience in software development. He has authored books such as “Extraordinarily Badass Agile Coaching:The Journey From Beginning to Mastery and Beyond,” "Scrum Product Ownership - Balancing Value from the Inside Out" and "Three Pillars of Agile Quality and Testing.” He frequently speaks at Agile conferences and events, sharing his knowledge and experiences in Agile testing and coaching. You can listen to him on his podcast, Meta-Cast.

Karim Harbott joins Brian to talk about the 5 levers of crafting a strong culture in an organization and the critical role of leaders in establishing it. Overview On this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast, Karim Harbott joins Brian to discuss the importance of crafting a strong culture in an organization through his 5 Levers for Changing Organizational Culture. Listen in as they discuss the importance of aligning behaviors with the organization's strategy and the often-overlooked but critical role that leaders play in the cultural transformation of organizations. Listen Now to Discover: [01:34] - Brian introduces Karim Harbott, an Agile coach and CST, and highlights his book, “The 6 Enablers of Business Agility” He’s joining Brian to discuss culture change and the challenges associated with it. [02:25] - Karim discusses where to begin to make cultural change. [04:14] - Brian and Karim discuss the challenges of teaching culture and the importance of modeling desired behaviors. [04:47] - Karim explains that behaviors are a key factor in shaping culture and shares that there are five levers for changing the culture of an organization. The first lever is the organization's structure, which can encourage collaboration or silos and is the first thing within your control to influence behavior and how people collaborate. [07:15] - Karim emphasizes the importance of examining the system in place using the analogy of a gardener to explain that leaders need to create an environment that fosters the growth of the desired culture and behaviors. [07:51] - Brian references a quote by Craig Larman highlighting that whatever you're seeing at the moment, your system is designed to output that—for a different output, you gotta change the system. [08:21] - Karim explains that Craig Larman's and Deming's quote that "every system is perfectly designed for the results it's getting" both emphasize the importance of the structure in determining culture. [08:47] - Karin shares the second lever for changing culture, which is that the policies and rules that leaders create can be used to control or influence behaviors. [10:37] - Brian references the "Don't be evil" structure at Google and what it entailed. [11:37] - Karin discusses the importance of weaving high-level values into every part of how the organization operates, even the low-level aspects of the organization, to truly influence behaviors. [12:15] - Karin talks about the third lever of culture change, which is metrics and targets, and notes that what you measure and set as targets speaks volumes about what leadership values in the organization. [14:18] - Measuring intangible things like respect and integrity can be difficult, but it is important to find a way to measure them even though they don’t fit neatly into a dashboard. [15:51] - Brian shares an interesting paradigm they use at Mountain Goat Software, where they set goals with both a visual and emotional aspect to help them determine when they’ve reached their goal. [16:56] - Karim discusses the importance of HR processes as a lever (Lever #4) for influencing and reinforcing behaviors in an organization. [18:27] - Brian shares the sponsor for the podcast, Better User Stories, a one-day live online training course with Mike Cohn to improve your user story writing, so your team can do its best work, faster. [19:12] Brian emphasizes the concept that the company is a team effort, not an individual sport. [20:21] Karim highlights the difference between Henry Ford's production line and a team-based environment using the analogy of chopping onions in the kitchen but being asked to make a tiramisu. [21:30] - If the culture incentivizes individuals to prioritize their own interests over the interests of the team, then there is a problem, and conflicting incentives will lead to failure. [22:21] - Incentivizing individualism over teamwork will lead to failure (and unhappiness among 70% of employees). [23:39] - Karim discusses the fifth lever, which he considers to be the most powerful: leadership behaviors. [26:20] - Actions speak louder than words: Brian speaks about the importance of leadership behavior in promoting a healthy work culture with the example of unlimited vacation policies. [28:23] - Karim talks about the importance of behavioral norms in an organization, citing descriptive and injunctive norms as examples. By using the example of a library, he illustrates how people tend to conform to social norms. [30:39] - Karim shares the two things that are necessary to strengthen a culture; without these, a culture cannot be strong (it's important for leaders to be hypersensitive to this). [31:47] - The disapproval of others can be a powerful tool to make sure people behave the way we want them to behave. [32:47] - Brian shares how the TV show Brain Games demonstrated social norms and people conforming to the crowd. [33:43] - Karim emphasizes the importance of crafting a strong culture as one of the most important things a leader can do and calls for it to be a core leadership capability. [35:46] - Do you have an idea for the show or feedback you'd like to share? We'd love to hear from you. Email Brian. References and resources mentioned in the show: Mountain Goat Software's Better User Stories The 6 Enablers of Business Agility: How to Thrive in an Uncertain World The 6 Enablers of Business Agility 5 Levers for Changing Organisational Culture Lead and Disrupt Larman's Laws of Organizational Behavior Join the Agile Mentors Community Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Karim Harbott is a leadership and business agility expert, entrepreneur, author, and international keynote speaker with over a decade of experience helping organizations with business agility. Karim is one of only a few people globally to hold the Certified Agile Leadership (CAL) Educator, Certified Scrum Trainer® (CST), and Certified Enterprise Coach® (CEC) status.

Karim Harbott joins Brian to talk about the 5 levers of crafting a strong culture in an organization and the critical role of leaders in establishing it. Overview On this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast, Karim Harbott joins Brian to discuss the importance of crafting a strong culture in an organization through his 5 Levers for Changing Organizational Culture. Listen in as they discuss the importance of aligning behaviors with the organization's strategy and the often-overlooked but critical role that leaders play in the cultural transformation of organizations. Listen Now to Discover: [01:34] - Brian introduces Karim Harbott, an Agile coach and CST, and highlights his book, “The 6 Enablers of Business Agility” He’s joining Brian to discuss culture change and the challenges associated with it. [02:25] - Karim discusses where to begin to make cultural change. [04:14] - Brian and Karim discuss the challenges of teaching culture and the importance of modeling desired behaviors. [04:47] - Karim explains that behaviors are a key factor in shaping culture and shares that there are five levers for changing the culture of an organization. The first lever is the organization's structure, which can encourage collaboration or silos and is the first thing within your control to influence behavior and how people collaborate. [07:15] - Karim emphasizes the importance of examining the system in place using the analogy of a gardener to explain that leaders need to create an environment that fosters the growth of the desired culture and behaviors. [07:51] - Brian references a quote by Craig Larman highlighting that whatever you're seeing at the moment, your system is designed to output that—for a different output, you gotta change the system. [08:21] - Karim explains that Craig Larman's and Deming's quote that "every system is perfectly designed for the results it's getting" both emphasize the importance of the structure in determining culture. [08:47] - Karin shares the second lever for changing culture, which is that the policies and rules that leaders create can be used to control or influence behaviors. [10:37] - Brian references the "Don't be evil" structure at Google and what it entailed. [11:37] - Karin discusses the importance of weaving high-level values into every part of how the organization operates, even the low-level aspects of the organization, to truly influence behaviors. [12:15] - Karin talks about the third lever of culture change, which is metrics and targets, and notes that what you measure and set as targets speaks volumes about what leadership values in the organization. [14:18] - Measuring intangible things like respect and integrity can be difficult, but it is important to find a way to measure them even though they don’t fit neatly into a dashboard. [15:51] - Brian shares an interesting paradigm they use at Mountain Goat Software, where they set goals with both a visual and emotional aspect to help them determine when they’ve reached their goal. [16:56] - Karim discusses the importance of HR processes as a lever (Lever #4) for influencing and reinforcing behaviors in an organization. [18:27] - Brian shares the sponsor for the podcast, Better User Stories, a one-day live online training course with Mike Cohn to improve your user story writing, so your team can do its best work, faster. [19:12] Brian emphasizes the concept that the company is a team effort, not an individual sport. [20:21] Karim highlights the difference between Henry Ford's production line and a team-based environment using the analogy of chopping onions in the kitchen but being asked to make a tiramisu. [21:30] - If the culture incentivizes individuals to prioritize their own interests over the interests of the team, then there is a problem, and conflicting incentives will lead to failure. [22:21] - Incentivizing individualism over teamwork will lead to failure (and unhappiness among 70% of employees). [23:39] - Karim discusses the fifth lever, which he considers to be the most powerful: leadership behaviors. [26:20] - Actions speak louder than words: Brian speaks about the importance of leadership behavior in promoting a healthy work culture with the example of unlimited vacation policies. [28:23] - Karim talks about the importance of behavioral norms in an organization, citing descriptive and injunctive norms as examples. By using the example of a library, he illustrates how people tend to conform to social norms. [30:39] - Karim shares the two things that are necessary to strengthen a culture; without these, a culture cannot be strong (it's important for leaders to be hypersensitive to this). [31:47] - The disapproval of others can be a powerful tool to make sure people behave the way we want them to behave. [32:47] - Brian shares how the TV show Brain Games demonstrated social norms and people conforming to the crowd. [33:43] - Karim emphasizes the importance of crafting a strong culture as one of the most important things a leader can do and calls for it to be a core leadership capability. [35:46] - Do you have an idea for the show or feedback you'd like to share? We'd love to hear from you. Email Brian. References and resources mentioned in the show: Mountain Goat Software's Better User Stories The 6 Enablers of Business Agility: How to Thrive in an Uncertain World The 6 Enablers of Business Agility 5 Levers for Changing Organisational Culture Lead and Disrupt Larman's Laws of Organizational Behavior Join the Agile Mentors Community Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Karim Harbott is a leadership and business agility expert, entrepreneur, author, and international keynote speaker with over a decade of experience helping organizations with business agility. Karim is one of only a few people globally to hold the Certified Agile Leadership (CAL) Educator, Certified Scrum Trainer® (CST), and Certified Enterprise Coach® (CEC) status.

Chris Li joins Brian to talk about making informed decisions about going out on your own and navigating the challenges of entrepreneurship. Overview On this episode of "Agile Mentors," Chris Li joins Brian to discuss the journey to becoming an entrepreneur. They dive into everything from the importance of having a clear vision and passion to weighing the benefits of partnerships and investors. Listen in for valuable advice from Chris and Brian on sidestepping the fear of going alone and the crucial things to consider before taking the leap. Listen Now to Discover: [01:08] - Brian introduces Chris Li. [03:13] - Chris discusses the importance of taking stock of your threshold for comfort before determining the next step, especially in the current climate. [05:33] - Brian emphasizes the importance of passion in making decisions about the next steps and recognizing when you've reached the pinnacle of your current position so you can explore other opportunities that align with your passions. [07:05] - Chris shares his journey, from knowing he had an entrepreneurial spirit to finding the right people to help him as he took the leap. [08:51] - Brian highlights the importance of having a network of people to fall back on and the value of mentorship for personal and professional growth. [09:29] - Chris notes that going out on your own looks different for everyone and why it's essential to find the path that works for you and shares an example of someone who took a different route to improve their career. [11:35] - Chris breaks down external and internal factors that can help you determine if you're ready to go out on your own, including the most critical factor to consider. [14:22] - Brian discusses healthcare as a significant factor. [15:15] - Brian discusses the importance of risk tolerance and mapping out income streams and costs to ensure that going out on your own is financially viable. [15:49] - Chris discusses the investment period at the beginning of a move and why having an end goal is essential. [17:37] - Taking stock - what will you have to give up to have this other thing? [18:47] - The importance of a support team to help walk you through ALL sides of the situation—good, bad, and neutral. [21:13] - Brian talks about why developing a backup plan is essential. [21:43] - Chris shares why getting legal advice is vital. [23:23] - Brian emphasizes the importance of hustling when you are your own boss. [24:05] - Chis encourages listeners not to be discouraged by the elements of the process. Starting a business can be a valuable experience (regardless of its outcome). [25:17] - Brian encourages listeners to be realistic about their situation but not to let fear hold them back from pursuing their entrepreneurial dreams. [26:18] - Chris advises listeners to consider all the angles of any new opportunities that may come up, being realistic about their potential value. [29:21] - Brian emphasizes the importance of hustling, working extra hours as an entrepreneur, and considering your own work-life balance priorities. [31:32] - Think about how you will spend your time AND your money: Chris shares some practical things to consider, like how you will spend your time AND your money, and partnerships and securing funding. [35:49] - No matter your choice, you can always change course. [35:56] - Do you have an idea for the show or feedback you'd like to share? We'd love to hear from you. Email Brian. References and resources mentioned in the show: Join the Agile Mentors Community Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Chris Li is the Founder of SparkPlug Agility and a dynamic and enthusiastic IT consultant with more than two decades of industry experience. He specializes in delivering exceptional learning opportunities and is passionate about delivering outstanding speaking engagements, mission-focused insights, and cultivating meaningful partnerships for individuals, teams, and organizations.

Chris Li joins Brian to talk about making informed decisions about going out on your own and navigating the challenges of entrepreneurship. Overview On this episode of "Agile Mentors," Chris Li joins Brian to discuss the journey to becoming an entrepreneur. They dive into everything from the importance of having a clear vision and passion to weighing the benefits of partnerships and investors. Listen in for valuable advice from Chris and Brian on sidestepping the fear of going alone and the crucial things to consider before taking the leap. Listen Now to Discover: [01:08] - Brian introduces Chris Li. [03:13] - Chris discusses the importance of taking stock of your threshold for comfort before determining the next step, especially in the current climate. [05:33] - Brian emphasizes the importance of passion in making decisions about the next steps and recognizing when you've reached the pinnacle of your current position so you can explore other opportunities that align with your passions. [07:05] - Chris shares his journey, from knowing he had an entrepreneurial spirit to finding the right people to help him as he took the leap. [08:51] - Brian highlights the importance of having a network of people to fall back on and the value of mentorship for personal and professional growth. [09:29] - Chris notes that going out on your own looks different for everyone and why it's essential to find the path that works for you and shares an example of someone who took a different route to improve their career. [11:35] - Chris breaks down external and internal factors that can help you determine if you're ready to go out on your own, including the most critical factor to consider. [14:22] - Brian discusses healthcare as a significant factor. [15:15] - Brian discusses the importance of risk tolerance and mapping out income streams and costs to ensure that going out on your own is financially viable. [15:49] - Chris discusses the investment period at the beginning of a move and why having an end goal is essential. [17:37] - Taking stock - what will you have to give up to have this other thing? [18:47] - The importance of a support team to help walk you through ALL sides of the situation—good, bad, and neutral. [21:13] - Brian talks about why developing a backup plan is essential. [21:43] - Chris shares why getting legal advice is vital. [23:23] - Brian emphasizes the importance of hustling when you are your own boss. [24:05] - Chis encourages listeners not to be discouraged by the elements of the process. Starting a business can be a valuable experience (regardless of its outcome). [25:17] - Brian encourages listeners to be realistic about their situation but not to let fear hold them back from pursuing their entrepreneurial dreams. [26:18] - Chris advises listeners to consider all the angles of any new opportunities that may come up, being realistic about their potential value. [29:21] - Brian emphasizes the importance of hustling, working extra hours as an entrepreneur, and considering your own work-life balance priorities. [31:32] - Think about how you will spend your time AND your money: Chris shares some practical things to consider, like how you will spend your time AND your money, and partnerships and securing funding. [35:49] - No matter your choice, you can always change course. [35:56] - Do you have an idea for the show or feedback you'd like to share? We'd love to hear from you. Email Brian. References and resources mentioned in the show: Join the Agile Mentors Community Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Chris Li is the Founder of SparkPlug Agility and a dynamic and enthusiastic IT consultant with more than two decades of industry experience. He specializes in delivering exceptional learning opportunities and is passionate about delivering outstanding speaking engagements, mission-focused insights, and cultivating meaningful partnerships for individuals, teams, and organizations.

Mike Cohn joins Brian to share his experience facilitating story-writing workshops and offers insights on creating effective user stories that deliver value to customers and focus to your team. Overview In this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast, Brian is joined by Agile coach and trainer Mike Cohn to discuss the art of writing user stories through story-writing workshops. Mike shares his expertise on the importance of creating user stories, including how to write them effectively and their benefits in the development process. Listen in as Mike provides valuable insights on conducting effective story-writing workshops, including the role of a skilled facilitator, keeping the conversation on track, and how using the INVEST criteria can help you create high-quality user stories that meet the needs of your users. Tune in for practical tips and strategies to improve your user story writing workshops to energize your team while giving them a clear focus on what they need to do. Listen Now to discover: [01:09] - Brian is sitting down with Mike Cohn today to discuss story writing workshops. [01:57] - Mike shares team/stakeholder writing sessions during the early 2000s that morphed into "story writing workshops" to help teams understand what they were doing. [03:37] - Mike explains why he prefers to write 20-30 stories at the start of a quarter, only writing a few new stories during the sprint, then doing another story writing workshop every three months. [05:20] - Brian clarifies that teams don't have to wait for a story writing workshop to write stories. He shares his recommendations for holding story-writing workshops once a quarter to replenish the backlog and "refill the gas tank" with new ideas. [06:03] - Mike expands on the gas tank analogy, explaining that, like filling up a gas tank, teams don't need to wait until the backlog is empty to have a story-writing workshop. [06:52] - Mike shares why he prefers a quarterly approach to story writing for its big-picture view of the coming months. [07:17] - Brian references the 2020 Scrum Guide and suggests using the product goal as the bigger idea to zero in on. [07:32] - Mike agrees with Brian's suggestion of using the product goal as a focal point during story-writing workshops sharing his idea of the importance of something to aim for beyond just the single sprint goal. [07:59] - The importance of focusing a story-writing workshop on a single goal, i.e., setting a product goal for three to six months and using it as the workshop's focus to generate necessary stories. [09:29] - Who should attend a story-writing workshop? Mike offers his suggestions to bring creativity and new ideas and build better products. [11:33] - Mike shares why he believes involving team members in story-writing workshops is a time-saving, worthwhile investment that will improve product outcomes. [12:06] -The tools for a successful story-writing workshop for everyone involved. [13:57] - Mike explains why story-writing workshops might work better online than in person. [17:19] - To keep the conversation on track, having a skilled facilitator for your story-telling workshop is crucial. [17:58] - The importance of having a scrum master or agile coach facilitating story mapping sessions for guidance through any issues with sequencing or organization of ideas. [19:16] - Collectively writing the same story simultaneously vs. brainstorming different stories and then coming together—Mike shares which he prefers and why. [21:34] - Mike shares why saving the story refinement for later is best. [24:05] - The importance of striking a balance between the level of detail in the stories and the time spent on the story-writing workshop. [25:21] - Brian shares a story about an organization he worked with recently at Mountain Goat Software that used the INVEST criteria as a definition of Done to check off every story they wrote. [25:58] - Mike explains the six attributes a team should know to create good user stories. [27:20] - Mike shares why story-writing meetings energize teams, leaving them excited about the product and the upcoming period while giving them a clear focus on what they need to do. References and resources mentioned in the show: How to Run a Successful User Story Writing Workshop Better User Stories Video Course by Mike Cohn 2020 Scrum Guide Join the Agile Mentors Community Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Mike Cohn is the CEO of Mountain Goat Software and the Co-founder of Agile Alliance and Scrum Alliance. He’s passionate about agile and finds it rewarding when a company really understands agile, commits to doing it well, and succeeds dramatically. Mike’s focus is coaching, training, developing new courses, sharing ideas in his blog posts and tips, and participating in the Agile Mentors Community, especially with the live Q & A sessions.

Mike Cohn joins Brian to share his experience facilitating story-writing workshops and offers insights on creating effective user stories that deliver value to customers and focus to your team. Overview In this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast, Brian is joined by Agile coach and trainer Mike Cohn to discuss the art of writing user stories through story-writing workshops. Mike shares his expertise on the importance of creating user stories, including how to write them effectively and their benefits in the development process. Listen in as Mike provides valuable insights on conducting effective story-writing workshops, including the role of a skilled facilitator, keeping the conversation on track, and how using the INVEST criteria can help you create high-quality user stories that meet the needs of your users. Tune in for practical tips and strategies to improve your user story writing workshops to energize your team while giving them a clear focus on what they need to do. Listen Now to discover: [01:09] - Brian is sitting down with Mike Cohn today to discuss story writing workshops. [01:57] - Mike shares team/stakeholder writing sessions during the early 2000s that morphed into "story writing workshops" to help teams understand what they were doing. [03:37] - Mike explains why he prefers to write 20-30 stories at the start of a quarter, only writing a few new stories during the sprint, then doing another story writing workshop every three months. [05:20] - Brian clarifies that teams don't have to wait for a story writing workshop to write stories. He shares his recommendations for holding story-writing workshops once a quarter to replenish the backlog and "refill the gas tank" with new ideas. [06:03] - Mike expands on the gas tank analogy, explaining that, like filling up a gas tank, teams don't need to wait until the backlog is empty to have a story-writing workshop. [06:52] - Mike shares why he prefers a quarterly approach to story writing for its big-picture view of the coming months. [07:17] - Brian references the 2020 Scrum Guide and suggests using the product goal as the bigger idea to zero in on. [07:32] - Mike agrees with Brian's suggestion of using the product goal as a focal point during story-writing workshops sharing his idea of the importance of something to aim for beyond just the single sprint goal. [07:59] - The importance of focusing a story-writing workshop on a single goal, i.e., setting a product goal for three to six months and using it as the workshop's focus to generate necessary stories. [09:29] - Who should attend a story-writing workshop? Mike offers his suggestions to bring creativity and new ideas and build better products. [11:33] - Mike shares why he believes involving team members in story-writing workshops is a time-saving, worthwhile investment that will improve product outcomes. [12:06] -The tools for a successful story-writing workshop for everyone involved. [13:57] - Mike explains why story-writing workshops might work better online than in person. [17:19] - To keep the conversation on track, having a skilled facilitator for your story-telling workshop is crucial. [17:58] - The importance of having a scrum master or agile coach facilitating story mapping sessions for guidance through any issues with sequencing or organization of ideas. [19:16] - Collectively writing the same story simultaneously vs. brainstorming different stories and then coming together—Mike shares which he prefers and why. [21:34] - Mike shares why saving the story refinement for later is best. [24:05] - The importance of striking a balance between the level of detail in the stories and the time spent on the story-writing workshop. [25:21] - Brian shares a story about an organization he worked with recently at Mountain Goat Software that used the INVEST criteria as a definition of Done to check off every story they wrote. [25:58] - Mike explains the six attributes a team should know to create good user stories. [27:20] - Mike shares why story-writing meetings energize teams, leaving them excited about the product and the upcoming period while giving them a clear focus on what they need to do. References and resources mentioned in the show: How to Run a Successful User Story Writing Workshop Better User Stories Video Course by Mike Cohn 2020 Scrum Guide Join the Agile Mentors Community Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Mike Cohn is the CEO of Mountain Goat Software and the Co-founder of Agile Alliance and Scrum Alliance. He’s passionate about agile and finds it rewarding when a company really understands agile, commits to doing it well, and succeeds dramatically. Mike’s focus is coaching, training, developing new courses, sharing ideas in his blog posts and tips, and participating in the Agile Mentors Community, especially with the live Q & A sessions.

Kubair Shirazee, Founder of Peace through Prosperity, joins Brian to share his experiences using Agile tools for social and societal transformation, helping to empower marginalized communities and break the cycle of poverty. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, we explore how Agile can be applied outside of software development as a powerful tool for driving societal transformation with Kubair Shirazee, the Founder of the Peace through Prosperity project. Kubair takes us on his journey of using Agile methodologies to empower marginalized communities by supporting business owners in creating long-term solutions that are helping to break the cycle of poverty. Listen in as he shares some of the challenges he has faced in implementing these methodologies and offers listeners detailed information on how to get involved in the Peace through Prosperity Scrum Masters Experience Academy and insight into ways you can make an impact in your community. Listen Now to discover: [01:07] - Brian introduces to UK-based Kubair Shirazee, Agility Coach through Agilitea and Founder of the Peace through Prosperity project that uses Agile to foster social and societal transformation. [02:33] - Kubair discusses how Agile, which emphasizes people and relationships, can be applied to social and societal transformation. [04:43] - Kubair explains how marginalized solopreneurs in conflict zones and developing countries can use Agile principles to maximize their potential. [07:18] - The targeted way entrepreneurs with mobile businesses in marginalized communities use Agile to leverage what they've learned in the past to help them capitalize on future opportunities. [08:42] - How Agile coaching and support helped a barber named Anwar to go from having a beat-up chair on the street to owning a salon. [11:14] - Not just increased revenue—touching the lives of over 2400 marginalized micro-entrepreneurs in 12 short years. [12:57] - Back to Anwar's story, how focusing on the pillars of empiricism and developing a product goal helped him shift his mindset and grow his business. [16:27:] - We don't just hijack people's lives; it's all about creating relationships and collaborating with people to co-create solutions that work for them. [20:21] - How finding out you have the power to write your own story is the first crucial step towards realizing your full potential and overcoming the challenges of marginalization. [21:55] - Brian explains how Agile helps people manage challenging goals in any and every environment. [22:55] -How Peace through Prosperity helps provide long-term, sustainable, and impactful solutions to help create an environment of financial stability. [27:34] - Peace through Prosperity aims to empower marginalized communities to create a better future without resorting to extremism or outside help. [28:42] - The exciting opportunity to get involved with Peace through Prosperity through the Scrum Masters Experience Academy and work with teams in Pakistan, Yemen, and Egypt to gain valuable Scrum experience in just six months. [30:10] - Kubair shares how to become involved with the mission to meet the needs of marginalized communities in your own location (using Peace Through Prosperity's open-source programs). [34:41] - How individuals like Dominique de Cooman, CEO of Dropsolid, are helping fund Peace Through Prosperity and how you can, too. [36:39] - "Scrum is industry agnostic. Scrum is something if we if we all just embrace it, its principles, and its values. It can enrich not just our individual lives, but it can enrich us as an entire community on our pale blue dot."—Kubair Shirazee References and resources mentioned in the show: Peace through Prosperity Agilitea #32: Scrum in High School Sports with Cort Sharp #23 How Agile Works in Education with John Miller #21: Agile Marketing Teams with Stacey Ackerman Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Scrum Alliance Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Kubair Shirazee is a highly experienced Enterprise Agility Coach with over 20 years of experience helping people, teams, and businesses transform using his coaching skills. He has worked with a range of prominent brands in the pharmaceutical and non-profit sectors, including Novartis and Bayer, helping them to improve their product, service development, and operations. In addition to his coaching work, he is also the founder of the Peace through Prosperity project, which leverages Agile methodologies to promote social and societal transformation.

Kubair Shirazee, Founder of Peace through Prosperity, joins Brian to share his experiences using Agile tools for social and societal transformation, helping to empower marginalized communities and break the cycle of poverty. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, we explore how Agile can be applied outside of software development as a powerful tool for driving societal transformation with Kubair Shirazee, the Founder of the Peace through Prosperity project. Kubair takes us on his journey of using Agile methodologies to empower marginalized communities by supporting business owners in creating long-term solutions that are helping to break the cycle of poverty. Listen in as he shares some of the challenges he has faced in implementing these methodologies and offers listeners detailed information on how to get involved in the Peace through Prosperity Scrum Masters Experience Academy and insight into ways you can make an impact in your community. Listen Now to discover: [01:07] - Brian introduces to UK-based Kubair Shirazee, Agility Coach through Agilitea and Founder of the Peace through Prosperity project that uses Agile to foster social and societal transformation. [02:33] - Kubair discusses how Agile, which emphasizes people and relationships, can be applied to social and societal transformation. [04:43] - Kubair explains how marginalized solopreneurs in conflict zones and developing countries can use Agile principles to maximize their potential. [07:18] - The targeted way entrepreneurs with mobile businesses in marginalized communities use Agile to leverage what they've learned in the past to help them capitalize on future opportunities. [08:42] - How Agile coaching and support helped a barber named Anwar to go from having a beat-up chair on the street to owning a salon. [11:14] - Not just increased revenue—touching the lives of over 2400 marginalized micro-entrepreneurs in 12 short years. [12:57] - Back to Anwar's story, how focusing on the pillars of empiricism and developing a product goal helped him shift his mindset and grow his business. [16:27:] - We don't just hijack people's lives; it's all about creating relationships and collaborating with people to co-create solutions that work for them. [20:21] - How finding out you have the power to write your own story is the first crucial step towards realizing your full potential and overcoming the challenges of marginalization. [21:55] - Brian explains how Agile helps people manage challenging goals in any and every environment. [22:55] -How Peace through Prosperity helps provide long-term, sustainable, and impactful solutions to help create an environment of financial stability. [27:34] - Peace through Prosperity aims to empower marginalized communities to create a better future without resorting to extremism or outside help. [28:42] - The exciting opportunity to get involved with Peace through Prosperity through the Scrum Masters Experience Academy and work with teams in Pakistan, Yemen, and Egypt to gain valuable Scrum experience in just six months. [30:10] - Kubair shares how to become involved with the mission to meet the needs of marginalized communities in your own location (using Peace Through Prosperity's open-source programs). [34:41] - How individuals like Dominique de Cooman, CEO of Dropsolid, are helping fund Peace Through Prosperity and how you can, too. [36:39] - "Scrum is industry agnostic. Scrum is something if we if we all just embrace it, its principles, and its values. It can enrich not just our individual lives, but it can enrich us as an entire community on our pale blue dot."—Kubair Shirazee References and resources mentioned in the show: Peace through Prosperity Agilitea #32: Scrum in High School Sports with Cort Sharp #23 How Agile Works in Education with John Miller #21: Agile Marketing Teams with Stacey Ackerman Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Scrum Alliance Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Kubair Shirazee is a highly experienced Enterprise Agility Coach with over 20 years of experience helping people, teams, and businesses transform using his coaching skills. He has worked with a range of prominent brands in the pharmaceutical and non-profit sectors, including Novartis and Bayer, helping them to improve their product, service development, and operations. In addition to his coaching work, he is also the founder of the Peace through Prosperity project, which leverages Agile methodologies to promote social and societal transformation.

Brad Swanson joins Brian to explore the concept of servant leadership and share actionable takeaways to help you lead with compassion and empathy. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brad Swanson joins Brian to discuss the concept of servant leadership and how it can be applied in an Agile environment. Learn how to create strong personal connections with your team members, the power of asking powerful questions to foster collaboration, and how to be more assertive as a leader while remaining flexible about the process. Listen in as Brad shares three practical ways that listeners can cultivate a servant leadership mindset and build a positive and productive work environment. Listen Now to discover: [01:48] - Brian introduces Brad Swanson, who has the trifecta of certifications with Scrum Alliance: CST, CEC, and CTC. [02:54] - Brad shares his belief that servant leadership involves prioritizing the needs of the team while cultivating a culture of trust and collaboration. [04:43] - Since the 1970s, the servant leadership concept introduced by Robert K. Greenleaf has involved empowering team members rather than seeing them as subordinates. [07:48] - Brian shares his experience playing football and how it relates to management styles, highlighting that a calm and empowering approach can be more impactful than an authoritative one. [09:55] - Brad shares the idea that effective leadership involves the ability to balance and leverage multiple power styles and shares the book "Leadership Agility" by Bill Joiner and Steven Josephs, which emphasizes the importance of situational leadership. [13:30] - Brad shares his perspective on the shift in the last version of the Scrum Guide from using the term "servant leadership" to "true leadership" and why he prefers the term situational leadership. [15:05] - Brian acknowledges that people have a natural predisposition towards being either assertive or accommodating and how stepping outside of one's comfort zone can lead to both personal growth and an expansion of your skill set. [16:05:] - Brad suggests there is a difference between being assertive and directive. [19:38:] - The effectiveness of asking powerful questions to invite collaboration and reach a mutual goal. [20:17] - The key to being more assertive as a leader without attacking the individual (and remaining flexible about the process). [21:55] - Brad shares three ways listeners can implement a servant leadership mentality. [23:35] - Brian shares how to use a notebook to process your thoughts and ideas while giving others a chance to speak up. [24:38] - Brad shares why listening is a skill that requires frequent practice. [25:15] - Why it’s a good idea to keep your team in the loop about the changes you are trying to make in your leadership style. [26:13] - Why being open and transparent about your efforts to improve can help create a learning environment where improvement is both expected and accepted. [27:05] - Why creating strong personal relationships with the people you are leading is crucial to effective leadership and developing the team's skills. [29:05] - Listeners of the Agile Mentor’s Podcast can get a 10% discount on the Certified Agile Leadership class Brad has coming up on March 27th by using promo code friend10. Find out more by visiting Agility 11. [30:34] - Join the Agile Mentors Community to continue the discussion. You can get a free 12-month membership into the community by taking a class with Mountain Goat Software. References and resources mentioned in the show: What is Servant Leadership? "Servant Leadership: A Journey into the Nature of Legitimate Power and Greatness" "Leadership Agility" Agility 11 Certified Agile Leadership - CAL Essentials & Organizations with Brad Beginning March 27, 2023 - Promo Code: friend10 Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Scrum Alliance Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Brad Swanson, Founder and Principal Coach and Trainer at Agility 11 helps organizations achieve sustainable success through Lean and Agile principles. With extensive experience as a trusted advisor to executives and organizations worldwide, Brad holds certifications as a Leadership Agility 360 Coach, Agile Leadership Educator, Scrum Trainer, Enterprise Coach, Professional in Agile Coaching, and LeSS Practitioner.

Brad Swanson joins Brian to explore the concept of servant leadership and share actionable takeaways to help you lead with compassion and empathy. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brad Swanson joins Brian to discuss the concept of servant leadership and how it can be applied in an Agile environment. Learn how to create strong personal connections with your team members, the power of asking powerful questions to foster collaboration, and how to be more assertive as a leader while remaining flexible about the process. Listen in as Brad shares three practical ways that listeners can cultivate a servant leadership mindset and build a positive and productive work environment. Listen Now to discover: [01:48] - Brian introduces Brad Swanson, who has the trifecta of certifications with Scrum Alliance: CST, CEC, and CTC. [02:54] - Brad shares his belief that servant leadership involves prioritizing the needs of the team while cultivating a culture of trust and collaboration. [04:43] - Since the 1970s, the servant leadership concept introduced by Robert K. Greenleaf has involved empowering team members rather than seeing them as subordinates. [07:48] - Brian shares his experience playing football and how it relates to management styles, highlighting that a calm and empowering approach can be more impactful than an authoritative one. [09:55] - Brad shares the idea that effective leadership involves the ability to balance and leverage multiple power styles and shares the book "Leadership Agility" by Bill Joiner and Steven Josephs, which emphasizes the importance of situational leadership. [13:30] - Brad shares his perspective on the shift in the last version of the Scrum Guide from using the term "servant leadership" to "true leadership" and why he prefers the term situational leadership. [15:05] - Brian acknowledges that people have a natural predisposition towards being either assertive or accommodating and how stepping outside of one's comfort zone can lead to both personal growth and an expansion of your skill set. [16:05:] - Brad suggests there is a difference between being assertive and directive. [19:38:] - The effectiveness of asking powerful questions to invite collaboration and reach a mutual goal. [20:17] - The key to being more assertive as a leader without attacking the individual (and remaining flexible about the process). [21:55] - Brad shares three ways listeners can implement a servant leadership mentality. [23:35] - Brian shares how to use a notebook to process your thoughts and ideas while giving others a chance to speak up. [24:38] - Brad shares why listening is a skill that requires frequent practice. [25:15] - Why it’s a good idea to keep your team in the loop about the changes you are trying to make in your leadership style. [26:13] - Why being open and transparent about your efforts to improve can help create a learning environment where improvement is both expected and accepted. [27:05] - Why creating strong personal relationships with the people you are leading is crucial to effective leadership and developing the team's skills. [29:05] - Listeners of the Agile Mentor’s Podcast can get a 10% discount on the Certified Agile Leadership class Brad has coming up on March 27th by using promo code friend10. Find out more by visiting Agility 11. [30:34] - Join the Agile Mentors Community to continue the discussion. You can get a free 12-month membership into the community by taking a class with Mountain Goat Software. References and resources mentioned in the show: What is Servant Leadership? "Servant Leadership: A Journey into the Nature of Legitimate Power and Greatness" "Leadership Agility" Agility 11 Certified Agile Leadership - CAL Essentials & Organizations with Brad Beginning March 27, 2023 - Promo Code: friend10 Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Scrum Alliance Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Brad Swanson, Founder and Principal Coach and Trainer at Agility 11 helps organizations achieve sustainable success through Lean and Agile principles. With extensive experience as a trusted advisor to executives and organizations worldwide, Brad holds certifications as a Leadership Agility 360 Coach, Agile Leadership Educator, Scrum Trainer, Enterprise Coach, Professional in Agile Coaching, and LeSS Practitioner.

Dallas Jackson joins Brian to explore the human aspect of work and the challenges that come with prioritizing the team while ensuring everyone is heard. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Dallas Jackson joins Brian to delve into the human side of work and why it's essential to create work that fits people's lives rather than forcing humans to fit the work. They delve into the importance of understanding and appropriately responding to conflict in the workplace as a Scrum Master and prioritizing the team while ensuring everyone is heard. Listen in as they explore the challenges of adapting to change, why prioritizing human factors is essential for driving cultural shifts, and how to create an Agile culture that supports the human element of work. Listen Now to discover: [01:13] - Brian introduces Dallas Jackson, a native Texan, living in New Zealand who is a Teaching Assistant with Mountain Goat Software and certified team coach with Scrum Alliance. [03:18] - Dallas highlights the importance of recognizing individuals as human beings and creating work that fits their lives rather than forcing humans to fit into work. [05:17] - Brian shares the value of remote work to allow individuals to gain insight into each other's personal lives and encourages virtual show-and-tell sessions to foster stronger team bonds. [06:43] - Connecting to foster deeper relationships as a team. [07:42] - Dallas shares how showing her humanity helped her build a connection with colleagues, leading to a development of trust and a better quality of teamwork. [10:41] - Why it's important as a leader to prioritize taking care of employees. [12:21] - Dallas shares why creating a positive environment where people feel cared for and supported is crucial for producing good work. [15:22] -The importance of building connections in team relationships through reciprocity and sharing personal stories, even those unrelated to work. [16:39] - How opening ourselves up allows us to give the best to our fellow humans because we're ALL members of the same tribe—the human race. [18:06:] - Brian shares the importance of understanding and appropriately responding to conflict in the workplace, including avoidance. [21:08] - What about conflict—Dallas shares the importance of playing the long game and how not to handle it as a Scrum Master. [23:39] - How using crucial conversations helps everyone stick with the facts and avoid misunderstandings caused by differing perspectives. [24:43] - Brian shares the mantra he uses with teams to move beyond personal conflicts and focus on finding solutions. [26:08] - Acknowledging that facts are the foundation, but feelings in the workplace matter too. [27:17] - Dallas explains the significance of goldfish memory in conflict management, completing the stress cycle, and prioritizing the team while ensuring everyone is heard. [28:07] - Brian shares why the Scrum Master's job is similar to that of a football coach in that you need to be clued into the emotional temperature of your team. [30:32] - You can't process your way to a better culture—cultural shifts change when we take humans into account. [31:38] - Agile is a philosophy that requires a shift in thinking about work and a departure from following step-by-step instructions and can be a difficult transition for organizations to make. [32:39] - Dallas shares a football vs. rugby analogy about how to help managers make a mindset shift. [34:53] - Brian shares that working with humans requires a different approach than working with machines because repeatability isn't always possible—adaptation is the name of the game. [36:26] - Dallas shares the Cherokee saying that we die a thousand deaths to become our true selves. [37:54] - You can hear more from Dallas at Scrum Australia in March. References and resources mentioned in the show: Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle Scrum Australia Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Dallas Jackson is a Teaching Assistant at Mountain Goat Software with a multitude of Scrum and Agile qualifications, including CSM, CSPO, CAL-E.

Dallas Jackson joins Brian to explore the human aspect of work and the challenges that come with prioritizing the team while ensuring everyone is heard. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Dallas Jackson joins Brian to delve into the human side of work and why it's essential to create work that fits people's lives rather than forcing humans to fit the work. They delve into the importance of understanding and appropriately responding to conflict in the workplace as a Scrum Master and prioritizing the team while ensuring everyone is heard. Listen in as they explore the challenges of adapting to change, why prioritizing human factors is essential for driving cultural shifts, and how to create an Agile culture that supports the human element of work. Listen Now to discover: [01:13] - Brian introduces Dallas Jackson, a native Texan, living in New Zealand who is a Teaching Assistant with Mountain Goat Software and certified team coach with Scrum Alliance. [03:18] - Dallas highlights the importance of recognizing individuals as human beings and creating work that fits their lives rather than forcing humans to fit into work. [05:17] - Brian shares the value of remote work to allow individuals to gain insight into each other's personal lives and encourages virtual show-and-tell sessions to foster stronger team bonds. [06:43] - Connecting to foster deeper relationships as a team. [07:42] - Dallas shares how showing her humanity helped her build a connection with colleagues, leading to a development of trust and a better quality of teamwork. [10:41] - Why it's important as a leader to prioritize taking care of employees. [12:21] - Dallas shares why creating a positive environment where people feel cared for and supported is crucial for producing good work. [15:22] -The importance of building connections in team relationships through reciprocity and sharing personal stories, even those unrelated to work. [16:39] - How opening ourselves up allows us to give the best to our fellow humans because we're ALL members of the same tribe—the human race. [18:06:] - Brian shares the importance of understanding and appropriately responding to conflict in the workplace, including avoidance. [21:08] - What about conflict—Dallas shares the importance of playing the long game and how not to handle it as a Scrum Master. [23:39] - How using crucial conversations helps everyone stick with the facts and avoid misunderstandings caused by differing perspectives. [24:43] - Brian shares the mantra he uses with teams to move beyond personal conflicts and focus on finding solutions. [26:08] - Acknowledging that facts are the foundation, but feelings in the workplace matter too. [27:17] - Dallas explains the significance of goldfish memory in conflict management, completing the stress cycle, and prioritizing the team while ensuring everyone is heard. [28:07] - Brian shares why the Scrum Master's job is similar to that of a football coach in that you need to be clued into the emotional temperature of your team. [30:32] - You can't process your way to a better culture—cultural shifts change when we take humans into account. [31:38] - Agile is a philosophy that requires a shift in thinking about work and a departure from following step-by-step instructions and can be a difficult transition for organizations to make. [32:39] - Dallas shares a football vs. rugby analogy about how to help managers make a mindset shift. [34:53] - Brian shares that working with humans requires a different approach than working with machines because repeatability isn't always possible—adaptation is the name of the game. [36:26] - Dallas shares the Cherokee saying that we die a thousand deaths to become our true selves. [37:54] - You can hear more from Dallas at Scrum Australia in March. References and resources mentioned in the show: Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle Scrum Australia Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Dallas Jackson is a Teaching Assistant at Mountain Goat Software with a multitude of Scrum and Agile qualifications, including CSM, CSPO, CAL-E.

Join Lance Dacy and Brian Milner as they discuss the use of metrics in an Agile environment to ensure optimal performance without taking things in the wrong direction. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Lance Dacy joins Brian to delve into the intricacies of utilizing metrics in software development to ensure optimal performance while avoiding incentivizing adverse behaviors. Listen in as he walks us through the three tiers of metrics that are crucial for Agile teams to consider in order to stay on course. He’ll share the tools required to gain a holistic understanding of an individual's performance and how leadership styles and stakeholders influence team-level metrics. Plus, a look at the common challenges that teams may encounter during their Agile adoption journey and how to overcome them. Listen now to discover: [01:18] - Lance Dacy is on the show to discuss metrics. [02:09] - Brian asks, are there ‘good’ ways to track performance? [02:32] - Lance shares why Agile doesn’t really lend itself to tracking performance. [03:57] - How to handle performance reviews. [04:32] - Lance shares the best way to measure individual performance. [06:40] - Measuring team contribution vs. standalone rockstar. [07:48] - What Ken Schwaber and Jeff Sutherland say about the completeness of the Scrum Framework and why having a superhero on your team is bad. [09:45] - Lance shares the 3 tiers of metrics to measure when working as an Agile team to be sure their team is going in the right direction. [11:09] - Using tangible business-level metrics such as time to market for products, NPS, and support call volume to evaluate performance. [12:20] - How metrics, such as the number of work items completed per month, and cycle time, can be used to evaluate performance at a product level in an Agile environment. [14:10] - Lance shares standard metrics such as velocity, backlog churn, and work-in-process that can be used to evaluate things at the team level. [14:45] - Brian shares the importance of having a broader perspective to avoid having a distorted view of performance. [16:53] - How using tools such as Ishikawa (fishbone) diagrams can help you identify the root cause of the problem instead of the apparent cause. [17:22] - Individual velocity and other big metrics to avoid. [19:02] - How the balanced scorecard can help managers use ALL the information available to develop a comprehensive understanding of an individual's performance. [19:25] - The detrimental effects of using the wrong metrics to evaluate an individual's contribution. [21:29] - Brian shares the story of how a manager's bug squashing endeavor led to incentivizing the wrong behavior [22:31] - Lance references Stephen Denning's statement and reminds us that assumption testing is what developers do every day. [24:00] - Referencing the State of Agile Report statistics on what's stalling your transformation to Agile. [25:15] - Lance shares a behind-the-scenes look at how team-level metrics are affected by leadership styles and stakeholders. [27:05] - Lance shares the spreadsheet he's been using to track data for a Scrum team for over 5 years to understand why the team is not predictable and what they can do to improve. [31:38] - Got metrics management questions? Reach out to Lance. [31:46] - Why it’s imperative that you think of software development as R&D rather than manufacturing to arrive at the right metrics measurements. [33:26] Continue the conversation in The Agile Mentors Community. References and resources mentioned in the show: Join the More than 24k People Who've Trained to Succeed With Mountain Goat Software Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule #30: How to Get the Best Out of the New Year with Lance Dacy #31: Starting Strong: Tips for Successfully Starting with a New Organization with Julie Chickering State of Agile Report HBR's Embrace Of Agile The Agile Mentors Community Additional metrics resources mentioned by Lance Agile Metrics Business outcomes, product group metrics, unit metrics) KPI/OKR (Business Outcomes) Time to market, NPS, Support Call Volume, Revenue, Active Account, New Customer Onboarding Time, Regulatory Violations) Product Group Metrics Work items completed per unit of time (quarterly) % of work in active state vs. wait state Cycle time of work times (idea to done) Predictability (% of work items that reach ready when planned) Unit metrics Velocity, backlog churn, work in process, team stability Metrics Spreadsheet  Team Size Tracking the size of our cross-functional team (typically Dev and QA), allows us to pair that number with velocity to play “what-if” scenarios in the future. Whether you count half of a person if shared, or whole, keeping it consistent throughout your tracking is what is important. Most teams simply count the number of developers and testers. Team Days Tracking the iteration length is also helpful in understanding a team’s performance. If the team has a 2 week sprint, then usually that is 9 development days of actual work. The 10th day is set aside for sprint review, retrospective, and planning. Committed Tracking what the team committed to completing within a sprint is crucial to understanding their predictability. The are the most uneducated at the beginning of the sprint and tracking what they think they can complete helps us in long term planning. Completed Tracking what the team completed is actually just tracking velocity above, but comparing it what they committed helps us understand their predictability index. Predictability Index (Pi) Software development is complex, risky, and uncertain. A skill that is sought after in this type of environment is predictability. The better we are at understanding what we can accomplish, then finishing what we said we would accomplish builds trust with our management team and customers. If we aren’t very good, tracking this metric often helps us get back to good by committing to less or more depending on our index. Example: Completed Items / Committed Items = Predictability Index (Pi) 25 Story Points / 20 Story Points = 125% 20 Story Points / 25 Story Points = 80% Just because a team has a high Pi, does not mean they are good at predictability. Don’t let high and low numbers fool you, focus on the variance from 100% instead of the actual number. An arbitrary number to shoot for is +/- 15% Pi (85% or 115%). Story Points / Per Day (SPD) Story points per day is just that, tracking how many story points per day of the sprint did we complete (Completed / Team Days). Story Points / Per Day / Per Person (SP/PD/PP) This perhaps is the most useful metric to capture throughout the process. Most of our teams do not have the luxury of maintaining a consistent size or make-up. Inevitably over the course of a few months, the team make-up will change. Once the teams change, velocity has to be reset. In addition, we may actually change our sprint duration over a long period of time (don’t change it each sprint). Once we change sprint lengths, it can jeopardize our pure metrics, velocity has to be reset. However, over all of our teams in a product, if we can capture the SP/PD/PP that our teams complete on average, we can begin to play “what-if” scenarios in long- term planning. Example: Completed / (Team Size * Sprint Days) 24 / (4 * 9) = 0.67 You can then average that number over 4-6 sprints or even the year. Defects While we understand that we won’t ever likely have a zero defect product, it is useful to track how many defects our teams are creating over time. There are usually 2 types of defects, internal and external. Internal Our definition of done should at minimum include that testing is taking place during the sprint with the idea that we would not allow a story to be called DONE if it had remaining defects. As such, an internal defect are the ones that were created while working on a backlog item in the sprint, that we have fixed before calling the item DONE. External External defects are those that have “escaped” our development process and were not discovered during our testing. In a sense, our customer discovered the defect and the work item will become a new backlog item for a sprint. Warranty We should strive to have the warranty concept built into our process. If you bought a car yesterday and the radio fell out, you could take it back and they would fix it fairly quickly. Our customers deserve the same service. Don’t manage a defect backlog, get used to fixing escaped defects immediately, while they are fresh on your mind (right after a sprint). It doesn’t take a long time to fix defects, it takes a long time to find them once identified by a customer. Defects per Story Point Tracking defects per story point help to understand velocity a little better. If you have a team that has drastically increased its velocity, have the defects have increased along with it? Defects per story point help us understand the relationship between a velocity and defects created. Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy, known as Big Agile, is a dynamic, experienced management and technical professional with the proven ability to energize teams, plan with vision, and establish results in a fast-paced, customer-focused environment. He is a Certified Scrum Trainer® with the Scrum Alliance and has trained and coached many successful Scrum implementations from Fortune 20 companies to small start-ups since 2011. You can find out how to attend one of Lance’s classes with Mountain Goat Software here.

Join Lance Dacy and Brian Milner as they discuss the use of metrics in an Agile environment to ensure optimal performance without taking things in the wrong direction. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Lance Dacy joins Brian to delve into the intricacies of utilizing metrics in software development to ensure optimal performance while avoiding incentivizing adverse behaviors. Listen in as he walks us through the three tiers of metrics that are crucial for Agile teams to consider in order to stay on course. He’ll share the tools required to gain a holistic understanding of an individual's performance and how leadership styles and stakeholders influence team-level metrics. Plus, a look at the common challenges that teams may encounter during their Agile adoption journey and how to overcome them. Listen now to discover: [01:18] - Lance Dacy is on the show to discuss metrics. [02:09] - Brian asks, are there ‘good’ ways to track performance? [02:32] - Lance shares why Agile doesn’t really lend itself to tracking performance. [03:57] - How to handle performance reviews. [04:32] - Lance shares the best way to measure individual performance. [06:40] - Measuring team contribution vs. standalone rockstar. [07:48] - What Ken Schwaber and Jeff Sutherland say about the completeness of the Scrum Framework and why having a superhero on your team is bad. [09:45] - Lance shares the 3 tiers of metrics to measure when working as an Agile team to be sure their team is going in the right direction. [11:09] - Using tangible business-level metrics such as time to market for products, NPS, and support call volume to evaluate performance. [12:20] - How metrics, such as the number of work items completed per month, and cycle time, can be used to evaluate performance at a product level in an Agile environment. [14:10] - Lance shares standard metrics such as velocity, backlog churn, and work-in-process that can be used to evaluate things at the team level. [14:45] - Brian shares the importance of having a broader perspective to avoid having a distorted view of performance. [16:53] - How using tools such as Ishikawa (fishbone) diagrams can help you identify the root cause of the problem instead of the apparent cause. [17:22] - Individual velocity and other big metrics to avoid. [19:02] - How the balanced scorecard can help managers use ALL the information available to develop a comprehensive understanding of an individual's performance. [19:25] - The detrimental effects of using the wrong metrics to evaluate an individual's contribution. [21:29] - Brian shares the story of how a manager's bug squashing endeavor led to incentivizing the wrong behavior [22:31] - Lance references Stephen Denning's statement and reminds us that assumption testing is what developers do every day. [24:00] - Referencing the State of Agile Report statistics on what's stalling your transformation to Agile. [25:15] - Lance shares a behind-the-scenes look at how team-level metrics are affected by leadership styles and stakeholders. [27:05] - Lance shares the spreadsheet he's been using to track data for a Scrum team for over 5 years to understand why the team is not predictable and what they can do to improve. [31:38] - Got metrics management questions? Reach out to Lance. [31:46] - Why it’s imperative that you think of software development as R&D rather than manufacturing to arrive at the right metrics measurements. [33:26] Continue the conversation in The Agile Mentors Community. References and resources mentioned in the show: Join the More than 24k People Who've Trained to Succeed With Mountain Goat Software Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule #30: How to Get the Best Out of the New Year with Lance Dacy #31: Starting Strong: Tips for Successfully Starting with a New Organization with Julie Chickering State of Agile Report HBR's Embrace Of Agile The Agile Mentors Community Additional metrics resources mentioned by Lance Agile Metrics Business outcomes, product group metrics, unit metrics) KPI/OKR (Business Outcomes) Time to market, NPS, Support Call Volume, Revenue, Active Account, New Customer Onboarding Time, Regulatory Violations) Product Group Metrics Work items completed per unit of time (quarterly) % of work in active state vs. wait state Cycle time of work times (idea to done) Predictability (% of work items that reach ready when planned) Unit metrics Velocity, backlog churn, work in process, team stability Metrics Spreadsheet  Team Size Tracking the size of our cross-functional team (typically Dev and QA), allows us to pair that number with velocity to play “what-if” scenarios in the future. Whether you count half of a person if shared, or whole, keeping it consistent throughout your tracking is what is important. Most teams simply count the number of developers and testers. Team Days Tracking the iteration length is also helpful in understanding a team’s performance. If the team has a 2 week sprint, then usually that is 9 development days of actual work. The 10th day is set aside for sprint review, retrospective, and planning. Committed Tracking what the team committed to completing within a sprint is crucial to understanding their predictability. The are the most uneducated at the beginning of the sprint and tracking what they think they can complete helps us in long term planning. Completed Tracking what the team completed is actually just tracking velocity above, but comparing it what they committed helps us understand their predictability index. Predictability Index (Pi) Software development is complex, risky, and uncertain. A skill that is sought after in this type of environment is predictability. The better we are at understanding what we can accomplish, then finishing what we said we would accomplish builds trust with our management team and customers. If we aren’t very good, tracking this metric often helps us get back to good by committing to less or more depending on our index. Example: Completed Items / Committed Items = Predictability Index (Pi) 25 Story Points / 20 Story Points = 125% 20 Story Points / 25 Story Points = 80% Just because a team has a high Pi, does not mean they are good at predictability. Don’t let high and low numbers fool you, focus on the variance from 100% instead of the actual number. An arbitrary number to shoot for is +/- 15% Pi (85% or 115%). Story Points / Per Day (SPD) Story points per day is just that, tracking how many story points per day of the sprint did we complete (Completed / Team Days). Story Points / Per Day / Per Person (SP/PD/PP) This perhaps is the most useful metric to capture throughout the process. Most of our teams do not have the luxury of maintaining a consistent size or make-up. Inevitably over the course of a few months, the team make-up will change. Once the teams change, velocity has to be reset. In addition, we may actually change our sprint duration over a long period of time (don’t change it each sprint). Once we change sprint lengths, it can jeopardize our pure metrics, velocity has to be reset. However, over all of our teams in a product, if we can capture the SP/PD/PP that our teams complete on average, we can begin to play “what-if” scenarios in long- term planning. Example: Completed / (Team Size * Sprint Days) 24 / (4 * 9) = 0.67 You can then average that number over 4-6 sprints or even the year. Defects While we understand that we won’t ever likely have a zero defect product, it is useful to track how many defects our teams are creating over time. There are usually 2 types of defects, internal and external. Internal Our definition of done should at minimum include that testing is taking place during the sprint with the idea that we would not allow a story to be called DONE if it had remaining defects. As such, an internal defect are the ones that were created while working on a backlog item in the sprint, that we have fixed before calling the item DONE. External External defects are those that have “escaped” our development process and were not discovered during our testing. In a sense, our customer discovered the defect and the work item will become a new backlog item for a sprint. Warranty We should strive to have the warranty concept built into our process. If you bought a car yesterday and the radio fell out, you could take it back and they would fix it fairly quickly. Our customers deserve the same service. Don’t manage a defect backlog, get used to fixing escaped defects immediately, while they are fresh on your mind (right after a sprint). It doesn’t take a long time to fix defects, it takes a long time to find them once identified by a customer. Defects per Story Point Tracking defects per story point help to understand velocity a little better. If you have a team that has drastically increased its velocity, have the defects have increased along with it? Defects per story point help us understand the relationship between a velocity and defects created. Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy, known as Big Agile, is a dynamic, experienced management and technical professional with the proven ability to energize teams, plan with vision, and establish results in a fast-paced, customer-focused environment. He is a Certified Scrum Trainer® with the Scrum Alliance and has trained and coached many successful Scrum implementations from Fortune 20 companies to small start-ups since 2011. You can find out how to attend one of Lance’s classes with Mountain Goat Software here.

Join Julie Chickering and Brian Milner as they provide exclusive insight on utilizing your Scrum training, expanding your expertise, and passing your knowledge on to others. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Julie Chickering sits down with Brian to discuss getting started in the key Scrum roles. They highlight the value of establishing relationships with like-minded individuals for both support and greater success. Plus, a look at some ways to use Scrum outside of the software development arena. Listen in as they guide you through the initial steps you can take when you are just starting out on your Scrum journey and how collaboration and continuing education can aid your career growth and advancement. Listen now to discover: [02:26] - The framework is simple. Then we put people into the mix. Julie shares the most crucial aspect for those starting in key Scrum roles. [04:04] - Brian shares Mike's foundational philosophy for approaching this work from Mike Cohn's popular conference keynote session, Let Go of Knowing. [05:58] - How communities online like The Agile Mentors Community and local groups like DFW Scrum help members achieve more success. [07:02] - How being part of a community was foundational to Brian's Scrum journey. [8:33] - Julie shares her introduction to Scrum and how the connections and support she received from the community were crucial to her growth and advancement. [09:42] - Brian shares his regrets about not getting involved with a community sooner. [11:56] - Brian shares how mentoring is like dating and why taking the time to have the discussions needed to form the foundations for authentic relationships is vital. [13:08] - Read the room. Julie offers guidance on avoiding mistakes while searching for a mentor. [14:46] - How cross-pollination and venturing out to form connections in other industries helps you grow in your own. [15:41] - Being part of a safe community can help you advance your skills while helping others. [16:57] - Julie shares how to get started as a Scrum Master after you've been trained and the overall value of finding the right fit. [18:50] - Successful product ownership requires two key components. [19:16] - Where the rubber meets the road: expanding what you've learned in your training through real-world experience. [20:45] - Start where you are: how applying your Scrum training to other areas beyond software development can help enhance your skills. [22:55] - Brian and Julie share some examples of Scrum hidden in the non-software world, including in education and marketing. [25:32] - How to use your skills to help a nonprofit in your area. [27:11] - Brian explains how A-level classes can help you overcome hurdles as you advance in your career. [28:53] - Learning never stops: the importance of obtaining knowledge for now and later. [29:10] - Julie shares the value of debriefing with someone else. [30:31] - Problem-Solving Leadership (PSL) [31:22] - What classes and tools have you used to advance your skills? We'd love to hear. Reach out to share your experience. References and resources mentioned in the show Let Go of Knowing The Agile Mentors Community DFW Scrum Book Early for Savings on Mountain Goat Software Training Classes Agile Mentors Podcast EP#32: Scrum in High School Sports with Cort Sharp Agile Mentors Podcast  EP#23 How Agile Works in Education with John Miller Agile Mentors Podcast  EP#21: Agile Marketing Teams with Stacey Ackerman Agile Mentors Podcast  EP#31: Starting Strong: Tips for Successfully Starting with a New Organization with Julie Chickering Finding and Becoming Great Mentors and Sponsors with Carla Harris on WorkLife with Adam Grant Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected]. This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Julie Chickering is the brains and brawn behind JC Agile Consulting, believes that Lean and Agile practices are packed with potential — to enable positive culture change, business agility, and breakthrough results. Julie is a past president and board member of the Agile Project Management Network (APLN), a Certified Scrum Trainer (CST), PMI Agile Certified Practitioner (PMI-ACP), as well as a traditional Project Management Professional (PMP).

Join Julie Chickering and Brian Milner as they provide exclusive insight on utilizing your Scrum training, expanding your expertise, and passing your knowledge on to others. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Julie Chickering sits down with Brian to discuss getting started in the key Scrum roles. They highlight the value of establishing relationships with like-minded individuals for both support and greater success. Plus, a look at some ways to use Scrum outside of the software development arena. Listen in as they guide you through the initial steps you can take when you are just starting out on your Scrum journey and how collaboration and continuing education can aid your career growth and advancement. Listen now to discover: [02:26] - The framework is simple. Then we put people into the mix. Julie shares the most crucial aspect for those starting in key Scrum roles. [04:04] - Brian shares Mike's foundational philosophy for approaching this work from Mike Cohn's popular conference keynote session, Let Go of Knowing. [05:58] - How communities online like The Agile Mentors Community and local groups like DFW Scrum help members achieve more success. [07:02] - How being part of a community was foundational to Brian's Scrum journey. [8:33] - Julie shares her introduction to Scrum and how the connections and support she received from the community were crucial to her growth and advancement. [09:42] - Brian shares his regrets about not getting involved with a community sooner. [11:56] - Brian shares how mentoring is like dating and why taking the time to have the discussions needed to form the foundations for authentic relationships is vital. [13:08] - Read the room. Julie offers guidance on avoiding mistakes while searching for a mentor. [14:46] - How cross-pollination and venturing out to form connections in other industries helps you grow in your own. [15:41] - Being part of a safe community can help you advance your skills while helping others. [16:57] - Julie shares how to get started as a Scrum Master after you've been trained and the overall value of finding the right fit. [18:50] - Successful product ownership requires two key components. [19:16] - Where the rubber meets the road: expanding what you've learned in your training through real-world experience. [20:45] - Start where you are: how applying your Scrum training to other areas beyond software development can help enhance your skills. [22:55] - Brian and Julie share some examples of Scrum hidden in the non-software world, including in education and marketing. [25:32] - How to use your skills to help a nonprofit in your area. [27:11] - Brian explains how A-level classes can help you overcome hurdles as you advance in your career. [28:53] - Learning never stops: the importance of obtaining knowledge for now and later. [29:10] - Julie shares the value of debriefing with someone else. [30:31] - Problem-Solving Leadership (PSL) [31:22] - What classes and tools have you used to advance your skills? We'd love to hear. Reach out to share your experience. References and resources mentioned in the show Let Go of Knowing The Agile Mentors Community DFW Scrum Book Early for Savings on Mountain Goat Software Training Classes Agile Mentors Podcast EP#32: Scrum in High School Sports with Cort Sharp Agile Mentors Podcast  EP#23 How Agile Works in Education with John Miller Agile Mentors Podcast  EP#21: Agile Marketing Teams with Stacey Ackerman Agile Mentors Podcast  EP#31: Starting Strong: Tips for Successfully Starting with a New Organization with Julie Chickering Finding and Becoming Great Mentors and Sponsors with Carla Harris on WorkLife with Adam Grant Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected]. This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Julie Chickering is the brains and brawn behind JC Agile Consulting, believes that Lean and Agile practices are packed with potential — to enable positive culture change, business agility, and breakthrough results. Julie is a past president and board member of the Agile Project Management Network (APLN), a Certified Scrum Trainer (CST), PMI Agile Certified Practitioner (PMI-ACP), as well as a traditional Project Management Professional (PMP).

Join Woody Zuill and Brian Milner as they discuss the benefits of teams working together through Mob Programming. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Woody Zuill, a 40-year veteran software developer specializing in team interaction, joins Brian to explore the concept of Mob Programming. Woody shares the benefits of working together rather than separating tasks in software development and how removing things like queuing, multitasking, and context switching can actually make teams more effective. Listen in as he walks us through the collaborative software development approach's perks. Listen now to discover: [02:22] - Brian introduces Woody Zuill, a 40-year veteran software developer specializing in team interaction. [02:51] - Woody explains how he discovered the term Mob Programming. [04:56] - Where the idea of Teaming came from. [06:20] - Woody explains why he's changing the name from mob programming to teaming. [07:23] - Teaming = collaboration brought to software development, where more than one brain connects to do the work that needs to be done. [11:11] - Painting the Mob Programming picture: it's when "all the brilliant minds work together on the same thing ‌in the same space, at the same computer." [13:40] - To work efficiently in software development, one team member acts as the driver at the keyboard while everyone else acts as the navigator. [16:41] - The drawbacks and disconnect of breaking software development down into smaller pieces. [18:34] - Isn't six people in one room working on one computer a waste of resources? [21:07] - Do you want to be productive or effective? Examining the Lean concept of flow. [24:57] - Enhancing the effectiveness of software development by removing the negative impact of waiting, queuing, multitasking, and context switching. [25:22] - The benefits of working together vs. separating tasks in software development. [26:53] - Team Flow: how collaboration adds to our ability to work in the zone. [28:38] - Working together is often more effective, so why have we gotten better at it? [31:25] - The strength of experimentation. [33:09] - Woody explains that since the software development process is a discovery process, innovations such as mob programming can benefit the process. [35:25] - Woody shares resources where you can find more information on Mob Programming (see the resources section below for more) and how you can contact him to schedule a workshop. References and resources mentioned in the show: Software Teaming: A Mob Programming, Whole-Team Approach by Woody Zuill Teaming by Amy C. Edmondson Code with the Wisdom of the Crowd: Get Better Together with Mob Programming by Mark Pearl The Mob Mentality Show on Apple Podcasts Diffusion of Innovations by Everett M. Rogers Online And In-Person Training To Help You Succeed With Agile Through Mountain Goat Software The Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Woody Zuill has been a software developer for over forty years. Woody is one of the pioneers of Mob Programming, a method of teamwork in software development that involves the entire team working together. Woody gives remote and in-person workshops on the topic. You can find out more about him on Twitter @WoodyZuill or on LinkedIn.

Join Woody Zuill and Brian Milner as they discuss the benefits of teams working together through Mob Programming. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Woody Zuill, a 40-year veteran software developer specializing in team interaction, joins Brian to explore the concept of Mob Programming. Woody shares the benefits of working together rather than separating tasks in software development and how removing things like queuing, multitasking, and context switching can actually make teams more effective. Listen in as he walks us through the collaborative software development approach's perks. Listen now to discover: [02:22] - Brian introduces Woody Zuill, a 40-year veteran software developer specializing in team interaction. [02:51] - Woody explains how he discovered the term Mob Programming. [04:56] - Where the idea of Teaming came from. [06:20] - Woody explains why he's changing the name from mob programming to teaming. [07:23] - Teaming = collaboration brought to software development, where more than one brain connects to do the work that needs to be done. [11:11] - Painting the Mob Programming picture: it's when "all the brilliant minds work together on the same thing ‌in the same space, at the same computer." [13:40] - To work efficiently in software development, one team member acts as the driver at the keyboard while everyone else acts as the navigator. [16:41] - The drawbacks and disconnect of breaking software development down into smaller pieces. [18:34] - Isn't six people in one room working on one computer a waste of resources? [21:07] - Do you want to be productive or effective? Examining the Lean concept of flow. [24:57] - Enhancing the effectiveness of software development by removing the negative impact of waiting, queuing, multitasking, and context switching. [25:22] - The benefits of working together vs. separating tasks in software development. [26:53] - Team Flow: how collaboration adds to our ability to work in the zone. [28:38] - Working together is often more effective, so why have we gotten better at it? [31:25] - The strength of experimentation. [33:09] - Woody explains that since the software development process is a discovery process, innovations such as mob programming can benefit the process. [35:25] - Woody shares resources where you can find more information on Mob Programming (see the resources section below for more) and how you can contact him to schedule a workshop. References and resources mentioned in the show: Software Teaming: A Mob Programming, Whole-Team Approach by Woody Zuill Teaming by Amy C. Edmondson Code with the Wisdom of the Crowd: Get Better Together with Mob Programming by Mark Pearl The Mob Mentality Show on Apple Podcasts Diffusion of Innovations by Everett M. Rogers Online And In-Person Training To Help You Succeed With Agile Through Mountain Goat Software The Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Woody Zuill has been a software developer for over forty years. Woody is one of the pioneers of Mob Programming, a method of teamwork in software development that involves the entire team working together. Woody gives remote and in-person workshops on the topic. You can find out more about him on Twitter @WoodyZuill or on LinkedIn.

Join Cort Sharp and Brian Milner as they discuss experimenting with Scrum in other out-of-the-box environments, including how Cort uses it to train the high school swim team he coaches. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Cort Sharp joins Brian to explore how to use Scrum tools in other environments outside of the software development arena. Cort shares the lightbulb moment when he realized Scrum might help him become a more effective coach for his high school swim team. Listen in as he walks us through his real-world experience using Scrum to coach swimmers, including what worked and what didn't and how he redefined things to make using Scrum successful for the team. Listen now to discover: [01:27] - Brian introduces Cort Sharp, the Agile Mentors Community Manager and high school swim coach. [02:49] - Scrum is used chiefly in software, BUT there are other options. Examining out-of-the-box uses from Scrum. [03:46] - Cort shares the story of how he got started as a high school swim coach. [06:26] - Cort meets Scrum. [08:39] - The discovery during Certified Scrum Training that led Cort to believe he could use Scrum to become a more effective swim coach. [10:20] - Brian shares his own light bulb moment from his first exposure to Scrum. [11:53] - What’s the product: Cort shares the process of translating Scrum to the swimming world. [15:57] - How the sprint review brought everything home for Cort. [17:03] - Evaluating how things were working with the parents of the swimmers (the stakeholders) at the weekly invitational swim meets. [17:48] - Brian describes how Scrum helps you break things down into smaller, digestible chunks when you want to reach a big goal but don't see progress every day. [19:02] - Cort shares how they developed the user stories for each swimmer and used feedback to develop the backlog for swim practices. [19:44] - Cort shares the process of developing the backlog for swim practices. [21:19] - How Agile principles (i.e., sustainable pace) translate into arenas other than software. [24:30] - Cort explains how Scrum events like daily stand-ups and sprint reviews helped the team organize practices. [24:47] - Which Scrum practices were harder to implement for the team? [26:47] - Opening yourself up to experimentation. (And how to reach Cort with your coaching ideas and suggestions). [27:36] - Cort shares the biggest changes he had to make to make things work for the swim team. [28:00] - So, who is the Scrum Master for the swim team? Redefining the Scrum roles and responsibilities to make them work in other environments. [30:04] - Cort shares what he’s learned in the process of using Scrum with the swim team. [33:29] - Do you have a topic or guest you'd like to see on the Agile Mentors podcast? If so, send us an email. We'd love to hear from you. References and resources mentioned in the show #21: Agile Marketing Teams with Stacey Ackerman #23 How Agile Works in Education with John Miller The Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us as [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Cort Sharp is the Scrum Master of the producing team and the Agile Mentors Community Manager. In addition to his love for Agile, Cort is also a serious swimmer and has been coaching swimmers for five years.

Join Cort Sharp and Brian Milner as they discuss experimenting with Scrum in other out-of-the-box environments, including how Cort uses it to train the high school swim team he coaches. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Cort Sharp joins Brian to explore how to use Scrum tools in other environments outside of the software development arena. Cort shares the lightbulb moment when he realized Scrum might help him become a more effective coach for his high school swim team. Listen in as he walks us through his real-world experience using Scrum to coach swimmers, including what worked and what didn't and how he redefined things to make using Scrum successful for the team. Listen now to discover: [01:27] - Brian introduces Cort Sharp, the Agile Mentors Community Manager and high school swim coach. [02:49] - Scrum is used chiefly in software, BUT there are other options. Examining out-of-the-box uses from Scrum. [03:46] - Cort shares the story of how he got started as a high school swim coach. [06:26] - Cort meets Scrum. [08:39] - The discovery during Certified Scrum Training that led Cort to believe he could use Scrum to become a more effective swim coach. [10:20] - Brian shares his own light bulb moment from his first exposure to Scrum. [11:53] - What’s the product: Cort shares the process of translating Scrum to the swimming world. [15:57] - How the sprint review brought everything home for Cort. [17:03] - Evaluating how things were working with the parents of the swimmers (the stakeholders) at the weekly invitational swim meets. [17:48] - Brian describes how Scrum helps you break things down into smaller, digestible chunks when you want to reach a big goal but don't see progress every day. [19:02] - Cort shares how they developed the user stories for each swimmer and used feedback to develop the backlog for swim practices. [19:44] - Cort shares the process of developing the backlog for swim practices. [21:19] - How Agile principles (i.e., sustainable pace) translate into arenas other than software. [24:30] - Cort explains how Scrum events like daily stand-ups and sprint reviews helped the team organize practices. [24:47] - Which Scrum practices were harder to implement for the team? [26:47] - Opening yourself up to experimentation. (And how to reach Cort with your coaching ideas and suggestions). [27:36] - Cort shares the biggest changes he had to make to make things work for the swim team. [28:00] - So, who is the Scrum Master for the swim team? Redefining the Scrum roles and responsibilities to make them work in other environments. [30:04] - Cort shares what he’s learned in the process of using Scrum with the swim team. [33:29] - Do you have a topic or guest you'd like to see on the Agile Mentors podcast? If so, send us an email. We'd love to hear from you. References and resources mentioned in the show #21: Agile Marketing Teams with Stacey Ackerman #23 How Agile Works in Education with John Miller The Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us as [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Cort Sharp is the Scrum Master of the producing team and the Agile Mentors Community Manager. In addition to his love for Agile, Cort is also a serious swimmer and has been coaching swimmers for five years.

Join Julie Chickering and Brian Milner as they discuss strategies you can use to get started on the right foot with your new organization. Overview It's the new year, and for many people, that means starting a new chapter in their life, maybe in a new position, with a new team, or possibly an entirely new organization. It's the perfect time for reflection to determine what you can do in these first few days and weeks to set yourself up for success. So, we thought it would be a great time to take this episode of the show to highlight some strategies you can use to hit the ground running. In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian Milner and Julie Chickering discuss some strategies to set the stage for success in your new position. We will walk you through the vital steps for settling into your team and making an impact no matter what level of the ladder you are on. Plus, what to ask when you are interviewing to ensure you find the right fit. Listen now to discover: [01:40] - Julie Chickering is on the show to discuss starting strong with your new organization. [02:15] - How to use team retrospective to identify where things are going well to amplify the good stuff while on a discovery mission of what needs work. [03:35] - The one thing that Julie cautions about in one-on-one conversations that will help you avoid being influenced by others' opinions of their team members. [05:22] - How to create curiosity instead of animosity by offering reciprocal grace to help everyone work better together. [07:17] - Brian shares how to use an improvement board to keep a running track of things while identifying your next target, stay on the right track and avoid the worst-case scenario (as referenced by Henrik Kniberg in the Spotify Model - Part 2). [09:23] - What Brian calls his 15-minute' cheat code" for understanding the dynamics of a team. [11:31] - Julie shares her improvement backlog one-on-one ONE thing for Scrum Masters. [12:08] - Essential techniques to help developers make an impact and utilize their skills in their new team. [13:57] - How to get off on the right foot with a new team as a product owner. [14:14] - Julie shares how to determine if an agile framework like Scrum is helping you meet your business goals (or not). [15:34] - If you cannot communicate and collaborate with your stakeholders… you'll never deliver value to them. [16:32] - How story mapping exercises can help product owners. [18:31] - Why communication is the key to top-to-bottom team success. [19:40] - The most important questions to ask when you are interviewing to determine if the organization is a good fit for what you bring to the table. [22:17] - Why it's important to remember every interaction during an interview is a part of the job interview. [22:33] - Brian shares a story of why it's crucial to determine if the company you are going to work for is looking for someone agile or Agile. [24:42] - Why it's essential to do a background check on a company you're considering hitching your wagon to. [25:38] - Start with where you are: how to start strong if you have the skills and are certified but need to gain experience. [28:30] - How can you use your skills to give back and advance in your career? [29:38] - How to highlight your experience and use it to your advantage when seeking various roles within a company. [32:40] - The most powerful question you can ask your team that will help you start the new year fresh. References and resources mentioned in the show Spotify Engineering Culture - Part 2 (aka the "Spotify Model") The Culture Code How does project management work in Agile? with Julie Chickering #7: The Sprint Review is not a Demo with Julie Chickering Agile Mentors Community Meetup #13: What Does Cross-Functional Really Mean? with Lance Dacy Mountain Goat Software Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Julie Chickering is the brains and brawn behind JC Agile Consulting, believes that Lean and Agile practices are packed with potential — to enable positive culture change, business agility, and breakthrough results. Julie is a past president and board member of the Agile Project Management Network (APLN), a Certified Scrum Trainer (CST), PMI Agile Certified Practitioner (PMI-ACP), as well as a traditional Project Management Professional (PMP).

Join Julie Chickering and Brian Milner as they discuss strategies you can use to get started on the right foot with your new organization. Overview It's the new year, and for many people, that means starting a new chapter in their life, maybe in a new position, with a new team, or possibly an entirely new organization. It's the perfect time for reflection to determine what you can do in these first few days and weeks to set yourself up for success. So, we thought it would be a great time to take this episode of the show to highlight some strategies you can use to hit the ground running. In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian Milner and Julie Chickering discuss some strategies to set the stage for success in your new position. We will walk you through the vital steps for settling into your team and making an impact no matter what level of the ladder you are on. Plus, what to ask when you are interviewing to ensure you find the right fit. Listen now to discover: [01:40] - Julie Chickering is on the show to discuss starting strong with your new organization. [02:15] - How to use team retrospective to identify where things are going well to amplify the good stuff while on a discovery mission of what needs work. [03:35] - The one thing that Julie cautions about in one-on-one conversations that will help you avoid being influenced by others' opinions of their team members. [05:22] - How to create curiosity instead of animosity by offering reciprocal grace to help everyone work better together. [07:17] - Brian shares how to use an improvement board to keep a running track of things while identifying your next target, stay on the right track and avoid the worst-case scenario (as referenced by Henrik Kniberg in the Spotify Model - Part 2). [09:23] - What Brian calls his 15-minute' cheat code" for understanding the dynamics of a team. [11:31] - Julie shares her improvement backlog one-on-one ONE thing for Scrum Masters. [12:08] - Essential techniques to help developers make an impact and utilize their skills in their new team. [13:57] - How to get off on the right foot with a new team as a product owner. [14:14] - Julie shares how to determine if an agile framework like Scrum is helping you meet your business goals (or not). [15:34] - If you cannot communicate and collaborate with your stakeholders… you'll never deliver value to them. [16:32] - How story mapping exercises can help product owners. [18:31] - Why communication is the key to top-to-bottom team success. [19:40] - The most important questions to ask when you are interviewing to determine if the organization is a good fit for what you bring to the table. [22:17] - Why it's important to remember every interaction during an interview is a part of the job interview. [22:33] - Brian shares a story of why it's crucial to determine if the company you are going to work for is looking for someone agile or Agile. [24:42] - Why it's essential to do a background check on a company you're considering hitching your wagon to. [25:38] - Start with where you are: how to start strong if you have the skills and are certified but need to gain experience. [28:30] - How can you use your skills to give back and advance in your career? [29:38] - How to highlight your experience and use it to your advantage when seeking various roles within a company. [32:40] - The most powerful question you can ask your team that will help you start the new year fresh. References and resources mentioned in the show Spotify Engineering Culture - Part 2 (aka the "Spotify Model") The Culture Code How does project management work in Agile? with Julie Chickering #7: The Sprint Review is not a Demo with Julie Chickering Agile Mentors Community Meetup #13: What Does Cross-Functional Really Mean? with Lance Dacy Mountain Goat Software Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Julie Chickering is the brains and brawn behind JC Agile Consulting, believes that Lean and Agile practices are packed with potential — to enable positive culture change, business agility, and breakthrough results. Julie is a past president and board member of the Agile Project Management Network (APLN), a Certified Scrum Trainer (CST), PMI Agile Certified Practitioner (PMI-ACP), as well as a traditional Project Management Professional (PMP).

Join Lance Dacy and Brian Milner as they discuss how to get the best out of the new year. Overview Something about that turn of the calendar from December to January makes us want to dig into planning, goal setting, and change. In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian Milner and Lance Dacy discuss how to get the best out of the new year. They’ll walk through why personal retrospectives are the key to determining where to look for change. From 30-day challenges to building relationships with others in the Agile community, to fostering a fertile learning culture, listen in for insight into what might work for you to accomplish the change you seek to make this year your best. Listen now to discover: [01:15] - Welcome to our first podcast of 2023. [01:55] - How opening up our calendars to a new year sets us up for planning new things. [03:17] - Lance walks us through the two types of leaders, the visionary and the executor. [04:13] - Brian shares the benefit of personal retrospectives. [07:15] - How 30-day challenges catapult us to success by breaking things down into smaller chunks. [10:56] - Lance shares why New Year’s resolutions set us up for failure. [12:35] - How to plan goals using backlogs and the cyclical nature of organizations. [13:09] - How to use cross-training to challenge team members to broaden their horizons in the new year. [13:09] - Why you need to think about your intentions when trying to influence up. [14:03] - Why do 30-day challenges work well to engage in a new task, project, or skill with an experimental mindset. [15:29] - Lance shares why it’s critical for Scrum Masters to help leadership and management formulate career plans to help grow the people in the organization. [16:33] - If you’re doing the same thing you did last year, you’re not Agile. [17:16] - How plugging into a community can help you maintain your focus for growth. [19:48] - Why being a Scrum Master and a lone wolf don’t mix. [22:36] - How networking can help you take your career to the next level. [24:10] - Why it pays to keep an open mind (even to that which you don’t agree with), so you don’t miss out on vital information that can change your trajectory. [26:07] - Growing as a Scrum Master and as a person. References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Mentors Community Meetup #13: What Does Cross-Functional Really Mean? with Lance Dacy Mountain Goat Software Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away.

Join Lance Dacy and Brian Milner as they discuss how to get the best out of the new year. Overview Something about that turn of the calendar from December to January makes us want to dig into planning, goal setting, and change. In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian Milner and Lance Dacy discuss how to get the best out of the new year. They’ll walk through why personal retrospectives are the key to determining where to look for change. From 30-day challenges to building relationships with others in the Agile community, to fostering a fertile learning culture, listen in for insight into what might work for you to accomplish the change you seek to make this year your best. Listen now to discover: [01:15] - Welcome to our first podcast of 2023. [01:55] - How opening up our calendars to a new year sets us up for planning new things. [03:17] - Lance walks us through the two types of leaders, the visionary and the executor. [04:13] - Brian shares the benefit of personal retrospectives. [07:15] - How 30-day challenges catapult us to success by breaking things down into smaller chunks. [10:56] - Lance shares why New Year’s resolutions set us up for failure. [12:35] - How to plan goals using backlogs and the cyclical nature of organizations. [13:09] - How to use cross-training to challenge team members to broaden their horizons in the new year. [13:09] - Why you need to think about your intentions when trying to influence up. [14:03] - Why do 30-day challenges work well to engage in a new task, project, or skill with an experimental mindset. [15:29] - Lance shares why it’s critical for Scrum Masters to help leadership and management formulate career plans to help grow the people in the organization. [16:33] - If you’re doing the same thing you did last year, you’re not Agile. [17:16] - How plugging into a community can help you maintain your focus for growth. [19:48] - Why being a Scrum Master and a lone wolf don’t mix. [22:36] - How networking can help you take your career to the next level. [24:10] - Why it pays to keep an open mind (even to that which you don’t agree with), so you don’t miss out on vital information that can change your trajectory. [26:07] - Growing as a Scrum Master and as a person. References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Mentors Community Meetup #13: What Does Cross-Functional Really Mean? with Lance Dacy Mountain Goat Software Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away.

Join Scott Dunn and Brian Milner as they discuss how to influence up, including the tools you can use to overcome difficulties and step into a partnership with the influential people in your organization for influence that creates lasting change. Overview While we all want to be heard, but we are sometimes met with leaders in our organization who are uninterested in our concerns or resistant to giving needed support. And sometimes, it's our approach that's causing our conversations to fall flat. In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian Milner and Scott Dunn share their real-world experience on what to do from your side to earn the right to influence up. They discuss what bosses, managers, leadership, stakeholders, and other higher-ups in the organization want and tools you can use to overcome the gaps and step into a partnership with the powerful people in your organization for lasting change. Listen now to discover: [01:06] - Today, Brian and Scott Dunn discuss influencing up. [01:40] - Scott shares how it's easier to influence if you meet people where they are. [03:46] - How to create a win-win by adjusting your communication style. [04:25] - Scott shares how to earn the right to influence up by making things happen on your side of the fence. [06:17] - How a mind of curiosity can help you negotiate your position when the higher-ups say they are 100% onboard with Agile except for… [08:22] - How to challenge management without losing your job or credibility. [10:05] - Why it's vital to look for opportunities to influence an organization at every level. [11:07] - Organizational taxes are the price of the privilege of working in an organization. [12:07] - Brian shares how even small iterations of Agile can move the needle in organizations. [13:09] - Why you need to think about your intentions when trying to influence up. [14:28] - Scott shares how you can introduce tenants of Agile to show people how to work differently, show up differently, and make a difference to improve an organization. [16:05] - How returning to values on the Agile Manifesto helps organizations create team dynamics that inspire respectful team dynamics. [18:59] - Scott shares how making your boss look good makes a big difference for everyone in the organization. [20:09] - Brian shares how to think like your boss so you can frame your approach in a way that speaks their language. [23:58] - The opportunity to 'choose your own adventure' within your organization through sharing information. [25:29] - How to use the power of story to give your boss the tools to help make the change to Agile. [27:11] - Scott shares how resources such as the Agile Mentors Community can help you delve deeper into community for insight into solving your influence issues. Listen in next time when Lance Dacy will be on the show. References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Manifesto #24: How Agile Organizations Respond to Challenging Economic Times with Scott Dunn #1: Scrum vs Agile & Keys to Success with Mike Cohn Lyssa Adkins How To Be Successful with Agile in Any Culture Christopher Avery - CEO & Founder -The Responsibility Company | LinkedIn Mountain Goat Software Agile Mentors Community Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum.

Join Scott Dunn and Brian Milner as they discuss how to influence up, including the tools you can use to overcome difficulties and step into a partnership with the influential people in your organization for influence that creates lasting change. Overview While we all want to be heard, but we are sometimes met with leaders in our organization who are uninterested in our concerns or resistant to giving needed support. And sometimes, it's our approach that's causing our conversations to fall flat. In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian Milner and Scott Dunn share their real-world experience on what to do from your side to earn the right to influence up. They discuss what bosses, managers, leadership, stakeholders, and other higher-ups in the organization want and tools you can use to overcome the gaps and step into a partnership with the powerful people in your organization for lasting change. Listen now to discover: [01:06] - Today, Brian and Scott Dunn discuss influencing up. [01:40] - Scott shares how it's easier to influence if you meet people where they are. [03:46] - How to create a win-win by adjusting your communication style. [04:25] - Scott shares how to earn the right to influence up by making things happen on your side of the fence. [06:17] - How a mind of curiosity can help you negotiate your position when the higher-ups say they are 100% onboard with Agile except for… [08:22] - How to challenge management without losing your job or credibility. [10:05] - Why it's vital to look for opportunities to influence an organization at every level. [11:07] - Organizational taxes are the price of the privilege of working in an organization. [12:07] - Brian shares how even small iterations of Agile can move the needle in organizations. [13:09] - Why you need to think about your intentions when trying to influence up. [14:28] - Scott shares how you can introduce tenants of Agile to show people how to work differently, show up differently, and make a difference to improve an organization. [16:05] - How returning to values on the Agile Manifesto helps organizations create team dynamics that inspire respectful team dynamics. [18:59] - Scott shares how making your boss look good makes a big difference for everyone in the organization. [20:09] - Brian shares how to think like your boss so you can frame your approach in a way that speaks their language. [23:58] - The opportunity to 'choose your own adventure' within your organization through sharing information. [25:29] - How to use the power of story to give your boss the tools to help make the change to Agile. [27:11] - Scott shares how resources such as the Agile Mentors Community can help you delve deeper into community for insight into solving your influence issues. Listen in next time when Lance Dacy will be on the show. References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Manifesto #24: How Agile Organizations Respond to Challenging Economic Times with Scott Dunn #1: Scrum vs Agile & Keys to Success with Mike Cohn Lyssa Adkins How To Be Successful with Agile in Any Culture Christopher Avery - CEO & Founder -The Responsibility Company | LinkedIn Mountain Goat Software Agile Mentors Community Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum.

Julie Chickering sits down with Brian to share the best gift books for the Scrum masters in your life. Overview We all have those books on our bookshelves that we’ve had for years and still refer back to time and time again, or that new title that we’ve just read that blows our mind with the way it makes a new concept more relatable. Julie Chickering is a Certified Scrum Trainer (CST), PMI Agile Certified Practitioner (PMI-ACP), and a traditional Project Management Professional (PMP). Today on the show, Julie joins Brian to discuss the most valuable books they’ve read, the lessons they’ve learned from them, and the best ones for giving to the Scrum Master in your life this holiday season. Listen now to discover: [01:06] - Today, Brian and Julie Chickering will be sharing the most valuable books we’ve read. [02:10] - Julie shares how a book called Two Beats Ahead is helping her learn to let go of her creations. [04:00] - Julie shares an interesting story of how Beyoncé invited musicians in for collaboration and how that opened her mind to learning from her community. [05:07] - Brian shares why Agile Retrospectives: Making Good Teams Great by Esther Derby and Diana Larson is his #1 book recommendation for Scrum Masters. [06:29] - Julie shares why she’s also a fan of Agile Retrospectives: Making Good Teams Great for the mix-and-mash recipe for creating menu selections. [08:06] - Julie shares why The Culture Code: The Secrets of Highly Successful Groups insight into the three main things that make high-performing teams high-performing is her favorite book to give to the leaders on her list. [10:36] - Brian shares the three things from Daniel Pink’s Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us that align with Scrum. [12:34] - Julie shares how she learned to flip the script, start with the hard topics in a conversation, and finish with the positive from Daniel Pink, as included in his book, When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing. [15:53] - Brian shares why Dan Pink’s books are most enjoyable via audio. [16:15] - Julie shares how a podcast interview with author Scott Sonenshein led her to his book called Stretch: Unlock the Power of Less -and Achieve More Than You Ever Imagined, which helps teams unlock their potential to achieve more. [17:11] - Brian shares Frédéric Laloux's concept of the different colors of organizations as laid out in his book called Reinventing Organizations: A Guide to Creating Organizations Inspired by the Next Stage of Human Consciousness and how we can better enable change in organizations. [18:57] - Julie shares a book she recommends in Scrum Master class that’s great for sports fans called The Captain Class by Sam Walker, which walks the reader through what makes great sports teams great. [22:15] - Brian shares why sports analogies are great for teaching Scrum. [23:28] - Julie shares how even the Rolling Stones delve deep into figuring out how to improve. [24:30] - Why retrospectives are a great tool for improving the outcome of any mission. [28:25] - Brian shares why we still need to adjust to the current climate, even when the goal remains the same. [30:11] - Brian shares books by recent guests on the show, including Lead Without Blame: Building Resilient Learning Teams by Tricia Broderick, Strategise by Roman Pichler and Coaching Agile Teams: A Companion for Scrum Masters, Agile Coaches, and Project Managers in Transition (Addison-Wesley Signature Series (Cohn)) by Lyssa Adkins. Listen in next time when Scott Dunn will be on the show. References and resources mentioned in the show Two Beats Ahead by Panos A. Panay and R. Michael Hendrix Agile Retrospectives: Making Good Teams Great by Esther Derby, Diana Larsen The Culture Code: The Secrets of Highly Successful Groups by Daniel Coyle DRIVE by Daniel Pink | Animated Core Message Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us by Daniel Pink When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing by Daniel Pink The Power of Regret: How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward by Daniel Pink Stretch: Unlock the Power of Less -and Achieve More Than You Ever Imagined by Scott Sonenshein Reinventing Organizations: A Guide to Creating Organizations Inspired by the Next Stage of Human Consciousness by Frédéric Laloux The Captain Class by Sam Walker Lead Without Blame: Building Resilient Learning Teams by Tricia Broderick Strategise by Roman Pichler Coaching Agile Teams: A Companion for Scrum Masters, Agile Coaches, and Project Managers in Transition (Addison-Wesley Signature Series (Cohn)) by Lyssa, Adkins Mountain Goat Software Agile Mentors Community Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Julie Chickering is the brains and brawn behind JC Agile Consulting, believes that Lean and Agile practices are packed with potential — to enable positive culture change, business agility, and breakthrough results. Julie is a past president and board member of the Agile Project Management Network (APLN), a Certified Scrum Trainer (CST), PMI Agile Certified Practitioner (PMI-ACP), as well as a traditional Project Management Professional (PMP).

Julie Chickering sits down with Brian to share the best gift books for the Scrum masters in your life. Overview We all have those books on our bookshelves that we’ve had for years and still refer back to time and time again, or that new title that we’ve just read that blows our mind with the way it makes a new concept more relatable. Julie Chickering is a Certified Scrum Trainer (CST), PMI Agile Certified Practitioner (PMI-ACP), and a traditional Project Management Professional (PMP). Today on the show, Julie joins Brian to discuss the most valuable books they’ve read, the lessons they’ve learned from them, and the best ones for giving to the Scrum Master in your life this holiday season. Listen now to discover: [01:06] - Today, Brian and Julie Chickering will be sharing the most valuable books we’ve read. [02:10] - Julie shares how a book called Two Beats Ahead is helping her learn to let go of her creations. [04:00] - Julie shares an interesting story of how Beyoncé invited musicians in for collaboration and how that opened her mind to learning from her community. [05:07] - Brian shares why Agile Retrospectives: Making Good Teams Great by Esther Derby and Diana Larson is his #1 book recommendation for Scrum Masters. [06:29] - Julie shares why she’s also a fan of Agile Retrospectives: Making Good Teams Great for the mix-and-mash recipe for creating menu selections. [08:06] - Julie shares why The Culture Code: The Secrets of Highly Successful Groups insight into the three main things that make high-performing teams high-performing is her favorite book to give to the leaders on her list. [10:36] - Brian shares the three things from Daniel Pink’s Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us that align with Scrum. [12:34] - Julie shares how she learned to flip the script, start with the hard topics in a conversation, and finish with the positive from Daniel Pink, as included in his book, When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing. [15:53] - Brian shares why Dan Pink’s books are most enjoyable via audio. [16:15] - Julie shares how a podcast interview with author Scott Sonenshein led her to his book called Stretch: Unlock the Power of Less -and Achieve More Than You Ever Imagined, which helps teams unlock their potential to achieve more. [17:11] - Brian shares Frédéric Laloux's concept of the different colors of organizations as laid out in his book called Reinventing Organizations: A Guide to Creating Organizations Inspired by the Next Stage of Human Consciousness and how we can better enable change in organizations. [18:57] - Julie shares a book she recommends in Scrum Master class that’s great for sports fans called The Captain Class by Sam Walker, which walks the reader through what makes great sports teams great. [22:15] - Brian shares why sports analogies are great for teaching Scrum. [23:28] - Julie shares how even the Rolling Stones delve deep into figuring out how to improve. [24:30] - Why retrospectives are a great tool for improving the outcome of any mission. [28:25] - Brian shares why we still need to adjust to the current climate, even when the goal remains the same. [30:11] - Brian shares books by recent guests on the show, including Lead Without Blame: Building Resilient Learning Teams by Tricia Broderick, Strategise by Roman Pichler and Coaching Agile Teams: A Companion for Scrum Masters, Agile Coaches, and Project Managers in Transition (Addison-Wesley Signature Series (Cohn)) by Lyssa Adkins. Listen in next time when Scott Dunn will be on the show. References and resources mentioned in the show Two Beats Ahead by Panos A. Panay and R. Michael Hendrix Agile Retrospectives: Making Good Teams Great by Esther Derby, Diana Larsen The Culture Code: The Secrets of Highly Successful Groups by Daniel Coyle DRIVE by Daniel Pink | Animated Core Message Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us by Daniel Pink When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing by Daniel Pink The Power of Regret: How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward by Daniel Pink Stretch: Unlock the Power of Less -and Achieve More Than You Ever Imagined by Scott Sonenshein Reinventing Organizations: A Guide to Creating Organizations Inspired by the Next Stage of Human Consciousness by Frédéric Laloux The Captain Class by Sam Walker Lead Without Blame: Building Resilient Learning Teams by Tricia Broderick Strategise by Roman Pichler Coaching Agile Teams: A Companion for Scrum Masters, Agile Coaches, and Project Managers in Transition (Addison-Wesley Signature Series (Cohn)) by Lyssa, Adkins Mountain Goat Software Agile Mentors Community Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Julie Chickering is the brains and brawn behind JC Agile Consulting, believes that Lean and Agile practices are packed with potential — to enable positive culture change, business agility, and breakthrough results. Julie is a past president and board member of the Agile Project Management Network (APLN), a Certified Scrum Trainer (CST), PMI Agile Certified Practitioner (PMI-ACP), as well as a traditional Project Management Professional (PMP).

Tricia Broderick joins Brian to discuss how to lead without blame. Overview Vince Lombardi said, “Leaders aren’t born, they are made,” Great leadership is a learned skill, but in companies focused on the blame game, transparency and problem-solving becomes secondary to self-protection. Tricia Broderick is a leadership and organizational advisor. Today on the show, Tricia joins Brian to discuss how the blame game stifles great leadership and how the 4Cs can help leaders create safe spaces for highly connected, motivated teams to achieve better results and more impactful outcomes. Listen now to discover: [01:37] - Brian introduces us to Tricia Broderick, co-author of the new book, Lead Without Blame: Building Resilient Learning Teams. [02:36] - Is there a difference between a leader and an Agile leader? [04:18] - How exposure to the Agile community framework organically promotes leadership. [06:47] - How the blame game stifles leaders. [08:28] - When you're afraid of blame, you’re focused on self-protection instead of moving forward. [09:38] - Why impact is more important than intention and why taking responsibility for your impact is vital. [11:57] - Tricia shares what we really need for the most creative, quality-based results and outcomes. [14:43] - Tricia shares why we need to break free from a culture of blame and instead focus on shared goals for quality outcomes. [16:43] - Tricia shares the 4Cs of leadership. [17:52] - Great leaders aren’t afraid of complexity; they embrace uncertainty. [18:37] - Leaders instill confidence in others—having a leader that believes in you before you even believe in yourself has a huge motivating impact. [19:53] - Brian shares the concept of ‘dark leadership.’ [20:42] - Why compassion is the key to defeating imposter syndrome. [22:37] - It takes a courageous leader to create a safe space to challenge the status quo and seek out alternative ways for your team to operate. [25:37] - Why investing yourself personally and compassionately in the personal development of your team members isn't for the weak. [26:08] - The importance of the investment in a connection. [26:37] - Tricia shares the biggest takeaway for leaders. [27:31] - Tricia talks about resilient transparency and the leadership learning curve. Listen next time when Julie Chickering will be on the show. References and resources mentioned in the show Lead Without Blame: Building Resilient Learning Teams Mountain Goat Software Agile Mentors Community Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Tricia Broderick’s transformational leadership, at all levels of an organization, ignites the growth of leaders and high-performing teams to deliver quality outcomes. Tricia has more than twenty years of experience in the software development industry. She is the author of Lead Without Blame: Building Resilient Learning Teams.

Tricia Broderick joins Brian to discuss how to lead without blame. Overview Vince Lombardi said, “Leaders aren’t born, they are made,” Great leadership is a learned skill, but in companies focused on the blame game, transparency and problem-solving becomes secondary to self-protection. Tricia Broderick is a leadership and organizational advisor. Today on the show, Tricia joins Brian to discuss how the blame game stifles great leadership and how the 4Cs can help leaders create safe spaces for highly connected, motivated teams to achieve better results and more impactful outcomes. Listen now to discover: [01:37] - Brian introduces us to Tricia Broderick, co-author of the new book, Lead Without Blame: Building Resilient Learning Teams. [02:36] - Is there a difference between a leader and an Agile leader? [04:18] - How exposure to the Agile community framework organically promotes leadership. [06:47] - How the blame game stifles leaders. [08:28] - When you're afraid of blame, you’re focused on self-protection instead of moving forward. [09:38] - Why impact is more important than intention and why taking responsibility for your impact is vital. [11:57] - Tricia shares what we really need for the most creative, quality-based results and outcomes. [14:43] - Tricia shares why we need to break free from a culture of blame and instead focus on shared goals for quality outcomes. [16:43] - Tricia shares the 4Cs of leadership. [17:52] - Great leaders aren’t afraid of complexity; they embrace uncertainty. [18:37] - Leaders instill confidence in others—having a leader that believes in you before you even believe in yourself has a huge motivating impact. [19:53] - Brian shares the concept of ‘dark leadership.’ [20:42] - Why compassion is the key to defeating imposter syndrome. [22:37] - It takes a courageous leader to create a safe space to challenge the status quo and seek out alternative ways for your team to operate. [25:37] - Why investing yourself personally and compassionately in the personal development of your team members isn't for the weak. [26:08] - The importance of the investment in a connection. [26:37] - Tricia shares the biggest takeaway for leaders. [27:31] - Tricia talks about resilient transparency and the leadership learning curve. Listen next time when Julie Chickering will be on the show. References and resources mentioned in the show Lead Without Blame: Building Resilient Learning Teams Mountain Goat Software Agile Mentors Community Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Tricia Broderick’s transformational leadership, at all levels of an organization, ignites the growth of leaders and high-performing teams to deliver quality outcomes. Tricia has more than twenty years of experience in the software development industry. She is the author of Lead Without Blame: Building Resilient Learning Teams.

Lance Dacy joins Brian to discuss breaking down stories to get things done. Overview There are ways to break stories down into two- or three days worth of work across the team. But sometimes, they can be taken down to a level that devalues what your team is trying to deliver. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer® with the Scrum Alliance® Today on the show, Lance joins Brian to discuss some of the questions you need to ask when breaking stories down. We discuss how to organize teams for the best outcome and share different systems and processes to determine how far is enough when breaking down stories to help your team deliver a usable product to the end user. Listen now to discover: [01:37] - Brian introduces us to Lance Dacy, his guest and neighbor. [02:29] - Brian shares how you can suggest a topic for a future podcast episode by emailing your suggestion to [email protected]. [02:57] - Today, we're talking about getting work into its smallest component. [03:21] - Lance shares the four things teams need to do to be sure they are all speaking the same language when transitioning to Scrum. [03:44] - The make-or-break consequences of organizing teams for the best outcomes. [05:49] - Lance shares his insight on breaking things down into tasks in the product backlog. [07:47] - Lance uses a car cleaning analogy to break down the story into smaller tasks. [09:40] - In backlog refinement, we will start rounding out those acceptance criteria or conditions of satisfaction and make them their own story. [10:58] - Lance shares his system for determining how far is 'enough' when breaking down stories to be ready. [12:33] - The goal for each sprint planning session. [13:09] - Using the INVEST criteria to assess the quality of a user story. [13:48] - How small is too small? [15:17] - I love metrics, BUT metrics CAN BE misused. [15:55] - The key to not being surprised. [16:37] - Brian shares the importance of the V in the INVEST criteria. [18:14] - Vertically slicing stories to deliver something usable to the end user (the product owner). [21:42] - Using the SPIDR approach to splitting stories. [22:24] - Asking the right questions to create paths that lead to stories that turn into relevant products. [25:55] - The importance of interfaces when splitting up stories. [28:22] - The pros and cons of spikes—why they should be the exception and NOT the rule. [32:01] - Lance circles back to the consequences of creating your teams—focusing on the deliverables. [33:37] - Remember, releasing the product is independent of your sprint time box. Listen next time when we'll be discussing… Transformational Leadership with Tricia Broderick References and resources mentioned in the show What does INVEST Stand For? The S.P.I.D.R. Approach to Splitting Stories HOW TO SPLIT A USER STORY by Richard Lawrence Mountain Goat Software Agile Mentors Community Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy, known as Big Agile, is a dynamic, experienced management and technical professional with the proven ability to energize teams, plan with vision, and establish results in a fast-paced, customer-focused environment. He is a Certified Scrum Trainer® with the Scrum Alliance and has trained and coached many successful Scrum implementations from Fortune 20 companies to small start-ups since 2011.

Lance Dacy joins Brian to discuss breaking down stories to get things done. Overview There are ways to break stories down into two- or three days worth of work across the team. But sometimes, they can be taken down to a level that devalues what your team is trying to deliver. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer® with the Scrum Alliance® Today on the show, Lance joins Brian to discuss some of the questions you need to ask when breaking stories down. We discuss how to organize teams for the best outcome and share different systems and processes to determine how far is enough when breaking down stories to help your team deliver a usable product to the end user. Listen now to discover: [01:37] - Brian introduces us to Lance Dacy, his guest and neighbor. [02:29] - Brian shares how you can suggest a topic for a future podcast episode by emailing your suggestion to [email protected]. [02:57] - Today, we're talking about getting work into its smallest component. [03:21] - Lance shares the four things teams need to do to be sure they are all speaking the same language when transitioning to Scrum. [03:44] - The make-or-break consequences of organizing teams for the best outcomes. [05:49] - Lance shares his insight on breaking things down into tasks in the product backlog. [07:47] - Lance uses a car cleaning analogy to break down the story into smaller tasks. [09:40] - In backlog refinement, we will start rounding out those acceptance criteria or conditions of satisfaction and make them their own story. [10:58] - Lance shares his system for determining how far is 'enough' when breaking down stories to be ready. [12:33] - The goal for each sprint planning session. [13:09] - Using the INVEST criteria to assess the quality of a user story. [13:48] - How small is too small? [15:17] - I love metrics, BUT metrics CAN BE misused. [15:55] - The key to not being surprised. [16:37] - Brian shares the importance of the V in the INVEST criteria. [18:14] - Vertically slicing stories to deliver something usable to the end user (the product owner). [21:42] - Using the SPIDR approach to splitting stories. [22:24] - Asking the right questions to create paths that lead to stories that turn into relevant products. [25:55] - The importance of interfaces when splitting up stories. [28:22] - The pros and cons of spikes—why they should be the exception and NOT the rule. [32:01] - Lance circles back to the consequences of creating your teams—focusing on the deliverables. [33:37] - Remember, releasing the product is independent of your sprint time box. Listen next time when we'll be discussing… Transformational Leadership with Tricia Broderick References and resources mentioned in the show What does INVEST Stand For? The S.P.I.D.R. Approach to Splitting Stories HOW TO SPLIT A USER STORY by Richard Lawrence Mountain Goat Software Agile Mentors Community Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy, known as Big Agile, is a dynamic, experienced management and technical professional with the proven ability to energize teams, plan with vision, and establish results in a fast-paced, customer-focused environment. He is a Certified Scrum Trainer® with the Scrum Alliance and has trained and coached many successful Scrum implementations from Fortune 20 companies to small start-ups since 2011.

Henrik Kniberg joins Brian to talk about creating the Spotify Model. Overview There are ways to get things done, and then there are the best ways to get things done. But the only way to arrive at the right way of doing things is to try and fail, to see what works and what doesn't. Henrik Kniberg is a Certified Scrum Trainer who has worked with teams like Spotify and LEGO to help them implement agile culture in their fast-moving and fast-growing environments. He's also the co-creator of the Spotify Model. Today on the show, Henrik joins Brian to discuss his accidental introduction to Spotify and how he inspired the company to transition to Scrum. We discuss the leadership model that helped the startup scale while holding its own against behemoths like Apple and Google. Plus, an inside look at his time as a designer with Minecraft. Listen now to discover: [01:55] - Brian shares Henrik's Agile Product Ownership in a Nutshell that's become required viewing. [02:22] - Brian shares some of the places on Henrik's resume, including Lego, Minecraft, and Spotify. [03:42] - Henrik shares his love for playing accompaniment musical instruments. [04:08] - Brian shares his professional musical background. [04:35] - Introducing the Spotify engineering culture videos that have sparked a thousand conversations about scaling challenges. [05:10] - Henrik shares the story of his accidental introduction to Spotify and how he inspired the startups to transition to Scrum. [8:26] - Henrik describes how the lack of off-the-shelf scaling frameworks led to his work with Spotify. [08:45] - Standard Scrum, by the books, works for small teams, but for scaling at larger teams like the one at Spotify, it's hard to find a "one size fits all" approach. [10:59] - How realizing 'this is what's helping us swim' during their impressive growth got all the technical leaders of Spotify on board with using Agile. [12:50] - Henrik shares the leadership model that helped Spotify scale up. [14:58] - How Spotify used the speed of innovation to stand against goliath-like competitors like Apple and Google. [16:30] - Convincing the investors that being able to iterate quickly (rather than through roadmaps) was the key to winning the game. [18:09] - Fueling future inspiration—why Spotify instituted the twice-a-year hack weeks for their entire organization. [21:36] - Henrik shares why leadership is the key to culture and driving change in an Agile organization. [24:19] - Brian shares why it's wise to make a change where you can benefit a company rather than hanging on to the now-extinct gold watch at retirement. [25:53] - "Go ahead and copy the Spotify model… and don't worry about someone telling you that you're doing it wrong because that's just you adapting." [26:44] - How the Spotify culture videos had the opposite outcome from what Henrik had planned. [29:54] - Brian asks Henrik an important Minecraft question (as posed by his daughter.) [30:36] - Henrik shares insider information about the guiding principles for designers at Minecraft (and how that led to the creation of Striders). [32:34] - Brian shares why copy/paste is only sometimes best. [32:46] - Henrik shares how creating video games differs from life applications. Listen next time when we'll be discussing… Getting to Small with Lance Dacy References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Product Ownership in a Nutshell Spotify Engineering Culture - Part 1 (aka the "Spotify Model") Spotify Engineering Culture - Part 2 (aka the "Spotify Model") Mountain Goat Software Agile Mentors Community Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Henrik Kniberg is former member of the board of directors of the Agile Alliance and enjoys helping companies succeed with both the technical and human sides of software development. A Certified Scrum Trainer he’s worked with teams like Spotify and LEGO to help them implement agile culture in their fast-moving and fast-growing environments. He’s also the co-creator of the Spotify Model.

Henrik Kniberg joins Brian to talk about creating the Spotify Model. Overview There are ways to get things done, and then there are the best ways to get things done. But the only way to arrive at the right way of doing things is to try and fail, to see what works and what doesn't. Henrik Kniberg is a Certified Scrum Trainer who has worked with teams like Spotify and LEGO to help them implement agile culture in their fast-moving and fast-growing environments. He's also the co-creator of the Spotify Model. Today on the show, Henrik joins Brian to discuss his accidental introduction to Spotify and how he inspired the company to transition to Scrum. We discuss the leadership model that helped the startup scale while holding its own against behemoths like Apple and Google. Plus, an inside look at his time as a designer with Minecraft. Listen now to discover: [01:55] - Brian shares Henrik's Agile Product Ownership in a Nutshell that's become required viewing. [02:22] - Brian shares some of the places on Henrik's resume, including Lego, Minecraft, and Spotify. [03:42] - Henrik shares his love for playing accompaniment musical instruments. [04:08] - Brian shares his professional musical background. [04:35] - Introducing the Spotify engineering culture videos that have sparked a thousand conversations about scaling challenges. [05:10] - Henrik shares the story of his accidental introduction to Spotify and how he inspired the startups to transition to Scrum. [8:26] - Henrik describes how the lack of off-the-shelf scaling frameworks led to his work with Spotify. [08:45] - Standard Scrum, by the books, works for small teams, but for scaling at larger teams like the one at Spotify, it's hard to find a "one size fits all" approach. [10:59] - How realizing 'this is what's helping us swim' during their impressive growth got all the technical leaders of Spotify on board with using Agile. [12:50] - Henrik shares the leadership model that helped Spotify scale up. [14:58] - How Spotify used the speed of innovation to stand against goliath-like competitors like Apple and Google. [16:30] - Convincing the investors that being able to iterate quickly (rather than through roadmaps) was the key to winning the game. [18:09] - Fueling future inspiration—why Spotify instituted the twice-a-year hack weeks for their entire organization. [21:36] - Henrik shares why leadership is the key to culture and driving change in an Agile organization. [24:19] - Brian shares why it's wise to make a change where you can benefit a company rather than hanging on to the now-extinct gold watch at retirement. [25:53] - "Go ahead and copy the Spotify model… and don't worry about someone telling you that you're doing it wrong because that's just you adapting." [26:44] - How the Spotify culture videos had the opposite outcome from what Henrik had planned. [29:54] - Brian asks Henrik an important Minecraft question (as posed by his daughter.) [30:36] - Henrik shares insider information about the guiding principles for designers at Minecraft (and how that led to the creation of Striders). [32:34] - Brian shares why copy/paste is only sometimes best. [32:46] - Henrik shares how creating video games differs from life applications. Listen next time when we'll be discussing… Getting to Small with Lance Dacy References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Product Ownership in a Nutshell Spotify Engineering Culture - Part 1 (aka the "Spotify Model") Spotify Engineering Culture - Part 2 (aka the "Spotify Model") Mountain Goat Software Agile Mentors Community Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Henrik Kniberg is former member of the board of directors of the Agile Alliance and enjoys helping companies succeed with both the technical and human sides of software development. A Certified Scrum Trainer he’s worked with teams like Spotify and LEGO to help them implement agile culture in their fast-moving and fast-growing environments. He’s also the co-creator of the Spotify Model.

Scott Dunn joins Brian to talk about how Agile teams and organizations respond in difficult economic times. Overview Right now, the word recession is being bandied about, and big companies like Apple and Facebook are already beginning to scale back. But economic downturns can present opportunities for the right individuals. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with more than 20 years of experience. Today on the show, Scott joins Brian to discuss why now is the moment to hone in on your mission and determine your job market value and how Agile training can prepare you for any opportunity that comes your way. Listen now to discover: [01:52] - Brian shares how the word recession triggers companies to batten down the hatches. [03:19] - How leaning into Agile in an organization creates a natural operating cost reduction. [04:52] - Studies show organizations that invest during recessions are better positioned at the back end of it to, you know, accelerate like a rocket out of it. [06:55] - Scott explains how the Japanese concept of ‘danger opportunity’ offers teams a chance ‘to really do Agile’ and operate efficiently with less. [9:34] - How difficult times help companies prioritize and hone in on their mission and vision and stop trying to be everything to everybody. [12:57] - How organizations create unease and lack of employee trust. [14:46] - How Agile can help workplaces bring humanity back when responding to change. [16:18] -Scott shares a conversation with his daughter about voting with your feet and your values. [19:16] -Scott explains why companies need to invest in top talent to lower their technical debt. [20:17] - Why times like these require ruthlessness in proving out your theories. [22:10] - Scott shares why down economic times are opportunities in disguise for individuals to determine the types of environments they want to help flourish. [25:13] - Determining your job market value and the importance of looking at the total package of an opportunity. [28:30] -Is it really Agile, or is it Agile in name only? [31:33] - How taking classes at Mountain Goat can prepare you to bring your knowledge and skills to any opportunity. Listen next time when we'll be discussing… Scaling with Henrik Kniberg. References and resources mentioned in the show Mountain Goat Software Agile Mentors Community Scrum Alliance Jim Collins The Hedgehog Concept Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum.

Scott Dunn joins Brian to talk about how Agile teams and organizations respond in difficult economic times. Overview Right now, the word recession is being bandied about, and big companies like Apple and Facebook are already beginning to scale back. But economic downturns can present opportunities for the right individuals. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with more than 20 years of experience. Today on the show, Scott joins Brian to discuss why now is the moment to hone in on your mission and determine your job market value and how Agile training can prepare you for any opportunity that comes your way. Listen now to discover: [01:52] - Brian shares how the word recession triggers companies to batten down the hatches. [03:19] - How leaning into Agile in an organization creates a natural operating cost reduction. [04:52] - Studies show organizations that invest during recessions are better positioned at the back end of it to, you know, accelerate like a rocket out of it. [06:55] - Scott explains how the Japanese concept of ‘danger opportunity’ offers teams a chance ‘to really do Agile’ and operate efficiently with less. [9:34] - How difficult times help companies prioritize and hone in on their mission and vision and stop trying to be everything to everybody. [12:57] - How organizations create unease and lack of employee trust. [14:46] - How Agile can help workplaces bring humanity back when responding to change. [16:18] -Scott shares a conversation with his daughter about voting with your feet and your values. [19:16] -Scott explains why companies need to invest in top talent to lower their technical debt. [20:17] - Why times like these require ruthlessness in proving out your theories. [22:10] - Scott shares why down economic times are opportunities in disguise for individuals to determine the types of environments they want to help flourish. [25:13] - Determining your job market value and the importance of looking at the total package of an opportunity. [28:30] -Is it really Agile, or is it Agile in name only? [31:33] - How taking classes at Mountain Goat can prepare you to bring your knowledge and skills to any opportunity. Listen next time when we'll be discussing… Scaling with Henrik Kniberg. References and resources mentioned in the show Mountain Goat Software Agile Mentors Community Scrum Alliance Jim Collins The Hedgehog Concept Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum.

John Miller joins Brian to talk about Agile in the classroom. Overview Agile classrooms help students develop skills that will serve them long after they've left the classroom. John Miller is a Certified Enterprise Coach (CEC) and the Chief Empowerment Officer for Agile Classrooms. Today on the show, John joins Brian to share how he started introducing the Agile framework to educators. He walks us through how Agile classrooms help students solve complex problems while developing decision-making skills. He'll share how converting to an Agile classroom creates deeper, more fulfilling student and teacher relationships and the steps teachers can take to make their classroom an Agile classroom. Listen now to discover: [01:27] - Brian introduces John Miller and explains how, as a CEC, he's reached the highest rung on the Scrum Alliance certification ladder. [03:33] - How John got started with bringing Agile to the classroom. [06:09] - The collaboration between John and the educators to achieve the goal of creating a self-managing classroom. [09:45] - John shares how he went from thinking he'd ruined one class's education to watching them become one of the best self-managing groups he's ever seen. [12:16] - How children's lack of preconceived notions about how things are supposed to work helps them create teams that work. [13:48] - How an Agile classroom empowers students of all levels and learning abilities. [14:36] - The five levels of choice in an Agile classroom. [15:44] - John shares the objective of Agile classrooms to help students solve complex problems by developing choice-making skills. [17:55] - Brian shares that "Scrum is a sports analogy." [19:33] - Dark Scrum vs. Bright Scrum. John shares the formula he created using Ron Jeffries' term Dark Scrum. [24:06] - Is Agile dead, or are people just doing it wrong? [25:13] - John shares the levels of classrooms where Agile works best. Plus, which one did he work with that made him more nervous than high-level CEOs? [27:12] - John explains how the different dynamics lead to different success outcomes for incorporating Scrum into the classroom. [28:42] - What size classrooms achieve the most benefits from working with Scrum? [29:44] - John shares the steps teachers can take to make their classroom an Agile classroom. [31:20] - How converting to an Agile classroom creates deeper, more fulfilling teacher-student relationships. [31:53] - How Agile in the classroom acts as a bridge to industry and a life skills primer. References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Mentors Community Scrum Alliance Agile Classrooms Dark Scrum Agile Manifesto McGregor's Theory Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. John Miller is a Certified Enterprise Coach (CEC) and the Chief Empowerment Officer for Agile Classrooms. Since 2012, John's mission through Agile Classrooms has been to help educators take a more innovative and creative approach to guiding faculty, managing their schools, and teaching students.

John Miller joins Brian to talk about Agile in the classroom. Overview Agile classrooms help students develop skills that will serve them long after they've left the classroom. John Miller is a Certified Enterprise Coach (CEC) and the Chief Empowerment Officer for Agile Classrooms. Today on the show, John joins Brian to share how he started introducing the Agile framework to educators. He walks us through how Agile classrooms help students solve complex problems while developing decision-making skills. He'll share how converting to an Agile classroom creates deeper, more fulfilling student and teacher relationships and the steps teachers can take to make their classroom an Agile classroom. Listen now to discover: [01:27] - Brian introduces John Miller and explains how, as a CEC, he's reached the highest rung on the Scrum Alliance certification ladder. [03:33] - How John got started with bringing Agile to the classroom. [06:09] - The collaboration between John and the educators to achieve the goal of creating a self-managing classroom. [09:45] - John shares how he went from thinking he'd ruined one class's education to watching them become one of the best self-managing groups he's ever seen. [12:16] - How children's lack of preconceived notions about how things are supposed to work helps them create teams that work. [13:48] - How an Agile classroom empowers students of all levels and learning abilities. [14:36] - The five levels of choice in an Agile classroom. [15:44] - John shares the objective of Agile classrooms to help students solve complex problems by developing choice-making skills. [17:55] - Brian shares that "Scrum is a sports analogy." [19:33] - Dark Scrum vs. Bright Scrum. John shares the formula he created using Ron Jeffries' term Dark Scrum. [24:06] - Is Agile dead, or are people just doing it wrong? [25:13] - John shares the levels of classrooms where Agile works best. Plus, which one did he work with that made him more nervous than high-level CEOs? [27:12] - John explains how the different dynamics lead to different success outcomes for incorporating Scrum into the classroom. [28:42] - What size classrooms achieve the most benefits from working with Scrum? [29:44] - John shares the steps teachers can take to make their classroom an Agile classroom. [31:20] - How converting to an Agile classroom creates deeper, more fulfilling teacher-student relationships. [31:53] - How Agile in the classroom acts as a bridge to industry and a life skills primer. References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Mentors Community Scrum Alliance Agile Classrooms Dark Scrum Agile Manifesto McGregor's Theory Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. John Miller is a Certified Enterprise Coach (CEC) and the Chief Empowerment Officer for Agile Classrooms. Since 2012, John's mission through Agile Classrooms has been to help educators take a more innovative and creative approach to guiding faculty, managing their schools, and teaching students.

Roman Pichler joins Brian to talk about Product Roadmaps. Overview Product roadmaps help teams plan their everyday work and how their products will change over a year. But then, products evolve, and new data is collected and shared. Companies must then decide how to adapt and progress. So, how can we then create a product roadmap? Roman Pichler is an internationally renowned product management expert specializing in product strategy, leadership, and agility. Today on the show, Roman joins Brian to discuss how to create helpful product roadmaps that create value for the end users in a Scrum based context to move forward and simplify product management. Listen now to discover: [00:06] - Brian introduces Roman Pichler, one of his 'agile heroes. [00:35] - Brian shares about the book Strategise, 2nd Edition. [02:54] - Roman answers the question, "What is a Product Roadmap?" [03:58] - Roman explains if product roadmaps are helpful in an agile Scrum based context. [05:31] - Roman discusses using outcome-based goal-oriented roadmaps to determine a company's product value. [07:33] - Roman shares some examples of goals on a product roadmap. [08:12] - Why a goal-oriented based roadmap is all about outcomes. [09:35] - Brian shares insight into Roman's downloadable Go Product Roadmap. [10:07] - Roman shares how the latest version of the Scrum guide fits in with protocols, product goals, and outcome-based roadmaps. [11:54] - Why Roman adds time frame constraints into his product end goals. [14:41] - Roman shares the two things you need to succeed with collaborative product road mapping in an agile space. [16:40] - Roman explains how to incorporate time frame constraints into your roadmap. [19:40] - The difference between an internal and external product roadmap for public consumption. [21:11] - The importance of an impact analysis when determining whether to stick with a specific delivery date or fully meeting a goal. [25:00] - How to get precise estimates for your team. [26:15] - Roman shares his 'sweet spot' for making outcome-based investment decisions. [28:40] - Roman advises setting dates on (internal) roadmaps for contract-based environments. [29:06] - Roman shares Apple's trade-off decision when they launched the original iPhone in 2007. [31:40] - How to use goals to track the most valuable metrics. [34:41] - The importance of understanding the needs of the stakeholders. [35:19] - Roman shares the importance of balancing expectations with empathy for improved collaboration. [39:12] - Brian shares a funny story about the difference in polite communication between Americans and our friends on the other side of the pond. [40:46] - Roman shares why you shouldn't relinquish product road mapping in an agile space too soon. Listen next time when we'll be discussing… Agile and education with John Miller. References and resources mentioned in the show Roman Pichler Strategise Go Product Roadmap Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Roman Pilcher is a leading product management expert specializing in product strategy, leadership, and agility. He has advised product leaders and taught product managers and owners for over 15 years, pioneering agile product management practices. Roman shares his knowledge through his training courses, books, and podcast. You can find his popular Product Vision Board and Go Product Roadmap on his website.

Roman Pichler joins Brian to talk about Product Roadmaps. Overview Product roadmaps help teams plan their everyday work and how their products will change over a year. But then, products evolve, and new data is collected and shared. Companies must then decide how to adapt and progress. So, how can we then create a product roadmap? Roman Pichler is an internationally renowned product management expert specializing in product strategy, leadership, and agility. Today on the show, Roman joins Brian to discuss how to create helpful product roadmaps that create value for the end users in a Scrum based context to move forward and simplify product management. Listen now to discover: [00:06] - Brian introduces Roman Pichler, one of his 'agile heroes. [00:35] - Brian shares about the book Strategise, 2nd Edition. [02:54] - Roman answers the question, "What is a Product Roadmap?" [03:58] - Roman explains if product roadmaps are helpful in an agile Scrum based context. [05:31] - Roman discusses using outcome-based goal-oriented roadmaps to determine a company's product value. [07:33] - Roman shares some examples of goals on a product roadmap. [08:12] - Why a goal-oriented based roadmap is all about outcomes. [09:35] - Brian shares insight into Roman's downloadable Go Product Roadmap. [10:07] - Roman shares how the latest version of the Scrum guide fits in with protocols, product goals, and outcome-based roadmaps. [11:54] - Why Roman adds time frame constraints into his product end goals. [14:41] - Roman shares the two things you need to succeed with collaborative product road mapping in an agile space. [16:40] - Roman explains how to incorporate time frame constraints into your roadmap. [19:40] - The difference between an internal and external product roadmap for public consumption. [21:11] - The importance of an impact analysis when determining whether to stick with a specific delivery date or fully meeting a goal. [25:00] - How to get precise estimates for your team. [26:15] - Roman shares his 'sweet spot' for making outcome-based investment decisions. [28:40] - Roman advises setting dates on (internal) roadmaps for contract-based environments. [29:06] - Roman shares Apple's trade-off decision when they launched the original iPhone in 2007. [31:40] - How to use goals to track the most valuable metrics. [34:41] - The importance of understanding the needs of the stakeholders. [35:19] - Roman shares the importance of balancing expectations with empathy for improved collaboration. [39:12] - Brian shares a funny story about the difference in polite communication between Americans and our friends on the other side of the pond. [40:46] - Roman shares why you shouldn't relinquish product road mapping in an agile space too soon. Listen next time when we'll be discussing… Agile and education with John Miller. References and resources mentioned in the show Roman Pichler Strategise Go Product Roadmap Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Roman Pilcher is a leading product management expert specializing in product strategy, leadership, and agility. He has advised product leaders and taught product managers and owners for over 15 years, pioneering agile product management practices. Roman shares his knowledge through his training courses, books, and podcast. You can find his popular Product Vision Board and Go Product Roadmap on his website.

Brian speaks with Stacey Ackerman about working with Marketing teams using Agile. While the majority of teams using Agile are based in software, one of the fastest growing areas for Scrum teams is in Marketing. There’s a natural fit as Marketers are used to using such practices as A/B testing and getting quick results that feed their next steps. As you can imagine, there are a unique set of challenges that a marketing team presents that other Scrum teams don’t necessarily have to deal with as well. In this episode, Stacey talks us through the process that marketing teams follow when attempting to apply agile principles to their work. Listen now to discover: - 2:28 - what’s different about the way marketing teams approach agile? - 8:51 - what is the Agile Marketing Navigator and how are teams using it? - 15:05 - Stacey goes over the different roles - 17:43 - what are the chief problems marketing teams deal with in adopting this? Listen next time when we’ll be discussing… Product Roadmaps with Roman Pichler! References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Marketing Manifesto Agile Marketing Navigator Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us as [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Stacey Ackerman is one of the few agile coaches and trainers that got her start in marketing. After graduating from journalism school, she worked as a content writer, strategist, director, and adjunct marketing professor. She became passionate about agile as a better way to work in 2012 when she experimented with it for an ad agency client. Since then she has been a scrum master, agile coach and has helped with numerous agile transformations with teams across the globe. Stacey speaks at several agile conferences, has more certs to her name than she can remember and loves to practice agile at home with her family. As a lifelong Minnesotan, she recently relocated to North Carolina where she’s busy learning how to cook grits and say “y’all."

Brian speaks with Stacey Ackerman about working with Marketing teams using Agile. While the majority of teams using Agile are based in software, one of the fastest growing areas for Scrum teams is in Marketing. There’s a natural fit as Marketers are used to using such practices as A/B testing and getting quick results that feed their next steps. As you can imagine, there are a unique set of challenges that a marketing team presents that other Scrum teams don’t necessarily have to deal with as well. In this episode, Stacey talks us through the process that marketing teams follow when attempting to apply agile principles to their work. Listen now to discover: - 2:28 - what’s different about the way marketing teams approach agile? - 8:51 - what is the Agile Marketing Navigator and how are teams using it? - 15:05 - Stacey goes over the different roles - 17:43 - what are the chief problems marketing teams deal with in adopting this? Listen next time when we’ll be discussing… Product Roadmaps with Roman Pichler! References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Marketing Manifesto Agile Marketing Navigator Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us as [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Stacey Ackerman is one of the few agile coaches and trainers that got her start in marketing. After graduating from journalism school, she worked as a content writer, strategist, director, and adjunct marketing professor. She became passionate about agile as a better way to work in 2012 when she experimented with it for an ad agency client. Since then she has been a scrum master, agile coach and has helped with numerous agile transformations with teams across the globe. Stacey speaks at several agile conferences, has more certs to her name than she can remember and loves to practice agile at home with her family. As a lifelong Minnesotan, she recently relocated to North Carolina where she’s busy learning how to cook grits and say “y’all."

Mike and Brian take audience questions in the “best of” from the Agile Mentors Community’s monthly coaching calls. Overview Twice a month, there is an open Q&A session we offer as part of the Agile Mentors Community where anyone from the community can join in and ask either Mike or Brian questions. These are open discussions and allow the users to ask their own questions that are unique to their situations. We call these “Coaching Calls” because they are there to help coach the members and help them overcome obstacles along the way.  Everyone who takes a class with Mountain Goat Software receives 12 months membership in the Agile Mentors Community and they are able to attend these calls and ask questions. Take a listen to some of the best questions we’ve received over the past few months to get an idea of what these sessions are all about. By the way, we are aware there are a few places where the audio is not perfect in this episode and apologize for the less-than-ideal audio in several places. This is because these answers come from live sessions and there were a few streaming hiccups while delivering them. Listen now to discover:  3:10 - Brian: How to conduct fun retrospectives when you aren’t allowed to use cloud-based tools? 7:40 - Mike: How much planning is needed to ensure we complete items in a Sprint? 11:50 - Brian: Do you change the story points on an item if it turns out to be bigger than you thought? 14:50 - Mike: Why use Fibonacci numbers to estimate? 18:05 - Brian: Should Product Owners attend a Daily Scrum? 20:25 - Mike: What’s the best practice for capturing Non-Functional Requirements? 23:00 - Brian: How do you get your first experience as a Scrum Master if you have none? 26:46 - Mike: Tips for starting out with a new team? Listen next time when we’ll be discussing… Next week we will be taking a very short break of just one week. We are trying to practice a sustainable pace approach and are taking just one week off in order to do that. References and resources mentioned in the show Funretrospectives.com Agilementors.com Want to get involved?  This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.  Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us as [email protected] This episode’s presenters are:  Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Mike Cohn is co-founder of the Scrum Alliance, and founder of Mountain Goat Software. He’s a veteran of applying Scrum and agile principles and practices to help organizations build better products and ship them on time.

Mike and Brian take audience questions in the “best of” from the Agile Mentors Community’s monthly coaching calls. Overview Twice a month, there is an open Q&A session we offer as part of the Agile Mentors Community where anyone from the community can join in and ask either Mike or Brian questions. These are open discussions and allow the users to ask their own questions that are unique to their situations. We call these “Coaching Calls” because they are there to help coach the members and help them overcome obstacles along the way.  Everyone who takes a class with Mountain Goat Software receives 12 months membership in the Agile Mentors Community and they are able to attend these calls and ask questions. Take a listen to some of the best questions we’ve received over the past few months to get an idea of what these sessions are all about. By the way, we are aware there are a few places where the audio is not perfect in this episode and apologize for the less-than-ideal audio in several places. This is because these answers come from live sessions and there were a few streaming hiccups while delivering them. Listen now to discover:  3:10 - Brian: How to conduct fun retrospectives when you aren’t allowed to use cloud-based tools? 7:40 - Mike: How much planning is needed to ensure we complete items in a Sprint? 11:50 - Brian: Do you change the story points on an item if it turns out to be bigger than you thought? 14:50 - Mike: Why use Fibonacci numbers to estimate? 18:05 - Brian: Should Product Owners attend a Daily Scrum? 20:25 - Mike: What’s the best practice for capturing Non-Functional Requirements? 23:00 - Brian: How do you get your first experience as a Scrum Master if you have none? 26:46 - Mike: Tips for starting out with a new team? Listen next time when we’ll be discussing… Next week we will be taking a very short break of just one week. We are trying to practice a sustainable pace approach and are taking just one week off in order to do that. References and resources mentioned in the show Funretrospectives.com Agilementors.com Want to get involved?  This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.  Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us as [email protected] This episode’s presenters are:  Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Mike Cohn is co-founder of the Scrum Alliance, and founder of Mountain Goat Software. He’s a veteran of applying Scrum and agile principles and practices to help organizations build better products and ship them on time.

This week, Brian Milner is joined by Julie Chickering to talk about the wild world of Project Management. Overview Brian Milner and Julie Chickering discuss how the world of project management can blend successfully with an Agile approach. There seems to sometimes be an attitude that it’s an either/or decision with these two. In this podcast, we take a look at how to blend them, how project managers fit in, and how these two disciplines can coexist. Julie brings her experience to this discussion having come from the project management realm.  Listen now to discover: 3:42 - Brian asks Julie about the general distrust between these communities 6:15 - Julie shares that 50% of the PMP exam now is on Agile practices 8:38 - Julie brings up the dreaded status report - Green / Yellow / Red 12:10 - Julie brings up the politics of Green / Yellow / Red 15:10 - Julie talks about the cost of poor quality 16:26 - Are we in the Agile community making PMs feel wrong? 17:22 - Brian discusses Outcomes vs Output 26:10 - Brian asks about PMs who are in companies making transitions. What happens to the project managers? Listen next time when we’ll be discussing... Brian and Mike Cohn share some of the best questions from their live coaching calls on the Agile Mentors community. References and resources mentioned in the show Monty Python Project Management Institute The Cowman and the Farmer Should be Friends from Oklahoma! HBR article on Output vs Outcomes From Project Manager to Scrum Master - 3 Tips for Making the Transition Agile Project Management by Jim Highsmith The Software Project Manager’s Bridge to Agility by Michele Sliger and Stacia Broderick PM Illustrated: A Visual Learner’s Guide to Project Management by Mike Griffiths - free on Kindle Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Julie Chickering is a certified Scrum Trainer as well as a CST, PMP, PMI-ACP CSM, CSPO, and Path to CSP Educator. She believes that Agile practices are packed with potential — to enable business agility, and breakthrough results. Julie loves to help people implement agile even when the environments are messy, people are complicated, and situations are challenging. She brings real-world experience working with people at all levels to adopt and roll out realistic Agile strategies organization-wide.

This week, Brian Milner is joined by Julie Chickering to talk about the wild world of Project Management. Overview Brian Milner and Julie Chickering discuss how the world of project management can blend successfully with an Agile approach. There seems to sometimes be an attitude that it’s an either/or decision with these two. In this podcast, we take a look at how to blend them, how project managers fit in, and how these two disciplines can coexist. Julie brings her experience to this discussion having come from the project management realm.  Listen now to discover: 3:42 - Brian asks Julie about the general distrust between these communities 6:15 - Julie shares that 50% of the PMP exam now is on Agile practices 8:38 - Julie brings up the dreaded status report - Green / Yellow / Red 12:10 - Julie brings up the politics of Green / Yellow / Red 15:10 - Julie talks about the cost of poor quality 16:26 - Are we in the Agile community making PMs feel wrong? 17:22 - Brian discusses Outcomes vs Output 26:10 - Brian asks about PMs who are in companies making transitions. What happens to the project managers? Listen next time when we’ll be discussing... Brian and Mike Cohn share some of the best questions from their live coaching calls on the Agile Mentors community. References and resources mentioned in the show Monty Python Project Management Institute The Cowman and the Farmer Should be Friends from Oklahoma! HBR article on Output vs Outcomes From Project Manager to Scrum Master - 3 Tips for Making the Transition Agile Project Management by Jim Highsmith The Software Project Manager’s Bridge to Agility by Michele Sliger and Stacia Broderick PM Illustrated: A Visual Learner’s Guide to Project Management by Mike Griffiths - free on Kindle Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Julie Chickering is a certified Scrum Trainer as well as a CST, PMP, PMI-ACP CSM, CSPO, and Path to CSP Educator. She believes that Agile practices are packed with potential — to enable business agility, and breakthrough results. Julie loves to help people implement agile even when the environments are messy, people are complicated, and situations are challenging. She brings real-world experience working with people at all levels to adopt and roll out realistic Agile strategies organization-wide.

Lyssa Adkins joins Brian to talk about the wonderful world of Agile coaching. Overview When you think of the term “Agile Coach,” what comes to mind for you? This term has meant many different things over the years. Are we talking about a role or an approach? Lyssa Adkins, author of Coaching Agile Teams, joins Brian to dive into this topic. Lyssa has written and spoken about this topic for years and many would say she had a large hand in defining what we now call agile coaching. Listen now to discover:  02:05 - Brian shares a story about Lyssa from the Vienna Scrum Gathering conference 06:40 - Lyssa answers the question, “What is an Agile Coach?” 08:10 - Lyssa explains the unintended consequence of using the term “coach” in her book 12:02 - Lyssa talks about the “X-Wing Diagram” and the 5 coaching stances 18:50 - Lyssa talks about not colluding when someone in power pushes something you disagree with 27:04 Lyssa talks about coaching in a remote world Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  Project Management with Julie Chickering. References and resources mentioned in the show Coaching Agile Teams by Lyssa Adkins Agile Coach Competency Framework Developing Great Agile Coaches whitepaper describing 5 coaching stances What is an Agile Coach? talk with Lyssa Adkins and Michael Spayd Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Lyssa Adkins has been one of the foundational voices in the Agile community for years now. Her book Coaching Agile Teams has been a best seller for over 12 years now. She released an audio version of this classic book on its 10th anniversary. In 2010, Lyssa co-founded the Agile Coaching Institute which has developed over 10,000 people in the knowledge, skills, and being-ness needed to yield genuinely competent agile coaching. She is a member of the ICAgile working committee and has served as a reviewer for the Scrum Alliance’s Certified Enterprise Coach certification program. Lyssa is also dedicated to amplifying women’s voices and is a founder of TENWOMENSTRONG #WomenInAgile programs.   Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Lyssa Adkins joins Brian to talk about the wonderful world of Agile coaching. Overview When you think of the term “Agile Coach,” what comes to mind for you? This term has meant many different things over the years. Are we talking about a role or an approach? Lyssa Adkins, author of Coaching Agile Teams, joins Brian to dive into this topic. Lyssa has written and spoken about this topic for years and many would say she had a large hand in defining what we now call agile coaching. Listen now to discover:  02:05 - Brian shares a story about Lyssa from the Vienna Scrum Gathering conference 06:40 - Lyssa answers the question, “What is an Agile Coach?” 08:10 - Lyssa explains the unintended consequence of using the term “coach” in her book 12:02 - Lyssa talks about the “X-Wing Diagram” and the 5 coaching stances 18:50 - Lyssa talks about not colluding when someone in power pushes something you disagree with 27:04 Lyssa talks about coaching in a remote world Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  Project Management with Julie Chickering. References and resources mentioned in the show Coaching Agile Teams by Lyssa Adkins Agile Coach Competency Framework Developing Great Agile Coaches whitepaper describing 5 coaching stances What is an Agile Coach? talk with Lyssa Adkins and Michael Spayd Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Lyssa Adkins has been one of the foundational voices in the Agile community for years now. Her book Coaching Agile Teams has been a best seller for over 12 years now. She released an audio version of this classic book on its 10th anniversary. In 2010, Lyssa co-founded the Agile Coaching Institute which has developed over 10,000 people in the knowledge, skills, and being-ness needed to yield genuinely competent agile coaching. She is a member of the ICAgile working committee and has served as a reviewer for the Scrum Alliance’s Certified Enterprise Coach certification program. Lyssa is also dedicated to amplifying women’s voices and is a founder of TENWOMENSTRONG #WomenInAgile programs.   Show edited by Rhett Gill.

David Hawks joins Brian to discuss the process of an organization becoming Agile. Overview When you read through the Scrum Guide, the picture it paints is of the desired end result - what the team/organization should look like when finished. There’s surprising little said though about how you get from where you are to where you want to eventually be. Enter the topic of Agile Transformations. There is a journey that organizations undertake when they decide to adopt Agile and like any journey, it’s always helpful to have a guide to help you get there who has been through it before. David Hawks joins Brian to share his experience in helping countless organizations make this journey to become Agile. Listen now to discover:  03:10 Brian asks David what the biggest hurdle is that organizations have when adopting Agile? 05:24 David explains that multiple levels the organization needs to focus on in the process 11:00 David talks about “Implementing Practices over Outcomes” 16:30 Brian asks what individuals who aren’t leaders can do to help? 20:20 Brian asks David to explain how his Path to Agility helps address these issues? 29:35 Brian talks about the Spotify Engineering Culture videos example Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  Agile Coaching with Lyssa Adkins! References and resources mentioned in the show Path To Agility & Agile Velocity SAFe and LeSS Yellowstone spinoff 1883 Oregon Trail Spotify Engineering Culture Video 1 and Video 2 Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  David Hawks is the CEO of both Agile Velocity and Path to Agility. He is a Certified Scrum Trainer as well as a Certified Enterprise Coach with the Scrum Alliance - their top two certifications. He received his Bachelor of Business Administration in Management Information Systems degree from the University of Texas at Austin. His love for his beloved Longhorns from UT is only eclipsed by his love (and expertise) in tailgating prior to their home games!   Show edited by Rhett Gill.

David Hawks joins Brian to discuss the process of an organization becoming Agile. Overview When you read through the Scrum Guide, the picture it paints is of the desired end result - what the team/organization should look like when finished. There’s surprising little said though about how you get from where you are to where you want to eventually be. Enter the topic of Agile Transformations. There is a journey that organizations undertake when they decide to adopt Agile and like any journey, it’s always helpful to have a guide to help you get there who has been through it before. David Hawks joins Brian to share his experience in helping countless organizations make this journey to become Agile. Listen now to discover:  03:10 Brian asks David what the biggest hurdle is that organizations have when adopting Agile? 05:24 David explains that multiple levels the organization needs to focus on in the process 11:00 David talks about “Implementing Practices over Outcomes” 16:30 Brian asks what individuals who aren’t leaders can do to help? 20:20 Brian asks David to explain how his Path to Agility helps address these issues? 29:35 Brian talks about the Spotify Engineering Culture videos example Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  Agile Coaching with Lyssa Adkins! References and resources mentioned in the show Path To Agility & Agile Velocity SAFe and LeSS Yellowstone spinoff 1883 Oregon Trail Spotify Engineering Culture Video 1 and Video 2 Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  David Hawks is the CEO of both Agile Velocity and Path to Agility. He is a Certified Scrum Trainer as well as a Certified Enterprise Coach with the Scrum Alliance - their top two certifications. He received his Bachelor of Business Administration in Management Information Systems degree from the University of Texas at Austin. His love for his beloved Longhorns from UT is only eclipsed by his love (and expertise) in tailgating prior to their home games!   Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Mitch Lacey joins Brian to talk about building quality into our work. Overview The Scrum Guide says the developers own quality and that it is both a right and responsibility of the team. What does that look like though? What do we mean when we say quality? How do teams practically go about building quality or is it just “baked in?” Join Brian and Mitch Lacey as they discuss this all important secret ingredient to the Scrum framework and hear why it’s so vital to a team’s success.   Listen now to discover:  2:25 Mitch explains what we mean by quality 6:48 Brian asks Mitch how to tell when you are “gold plating” things? 12:30 Brian asks about the developer who thinks the code needs to be perfect before they release 16:55 Brian talks about the last stage of the creative process is releasing 21:25 Mitch relates self-accountability to a recent Soccer(Football) match 22:34 Brian and Mitch discuss the infamous “Squirrel Burger” story Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  David Hawks joins us as we discuss transformations. References and resources mentioned in the show Test Driven Development “Squirrel Burger” story Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Mitch Lacey is an agile practitioner and trainer. Mitch has been managing projects for over fifteen years & is credited with many plan-driven & agile projects. He is the author of “The Scrum Field Guide,” a book targeting teams adopting agile and Scrum practices. He has published many papers, including “Adventures in Promiscuous Pairing,” “Transitioning to Agile: Key Lessons Learned in the Field,” “The Impacts of Poor Estimating -& How to Fix It,” plus a variety of papers for Microsoft and “Immersive Interviewing -Building Great Agile Software Teams.” Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Mitch Lacey joins Brian to talk about building quality into our work. Overview The Scrum Guide says the developers own quality and that it is both a right and responsibility of the team. What does that look like though? What do we mean when we say quality? How do teams practically go about building quality or is it just “baked in?” Join Brian and Mitch Lacey as they discuss this all important secret ingredient to the Scrum framework and hear why it’s so vital to a team’s success.   Listen now to discover:  2:25 Mitch explains what we mean by quality 6:48 Brian asks Mitch how to tell when you are “gold plating” things? 12:30 Brian asks about the developer who thinks the code needs to be perfect before they release 16:55 Brian talks about the last stage of the creative process is releasing 21:25 Mitch relates self-accountability to a recent Soccer(Football) match 22:34 Brian and Mitch discuss the infamous “Squirrel Burger” story Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  David Hawks joins us as we discuss transformations. References and resources mentioned in the show Test Driven Development “Squirrel Burger” story Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Mitch Lacey is an agile practitioner and trainer. Mitch has been managing projects for over fifteen years & is credited with many plan-driven & agile projects. He is the author of “The Scrum Field Guide,” a book targeting teams adopting agile and Scrum practices. He has published many papers, including “Adventures in Promiscuous Pairing,” “Transitioning to Agile: Key Lessons Learned in the Field,” “The Impacts of Poor Estimating -& How to Fix It,” plus a variety of papers for Microsoft and “Immersive Interviewing -Building Great Agile Software Teams.” Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Brian takes some of the most popular questions about Scrum from Quora.com and answers them. Overview If you are unfamiliar with it, Quora.com is a site people in the technology industry go to to ask and answer questions. For a change of pace, I decided to take a batch of the most popular questions from the site and provide my own answers to them. If you have questions you’d like to include in a similar episode in the future, make sure to email them to [email protected].   Listen now to discover:  01:14 Brian explains the premise behind this episode’s topic 02:25 Question 1: Why do iterations in Agile start from Wednesday to Tuesday rather than Monday to Friday? 09:00 Question 2: Are Burndown charts even useful? 16:14 Question 3: Who decides sprint duration in a Scrum project? 18:50 Question 4: As a Scrummaster, how do you deal with people being late or refusing to come to Daily Scrums? 24.32 Question 5: Can a User Story be used for bugs? 26:54 Question 6: Can Agile work without a Scrummaster?   Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  Join us next time where we will be discussing the topic of Quality with our guest Mitch Lacey.    References and resources mentioned in the show Send your questions for a future episode to [email protected].   Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected]   This episode’s presenter is: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Brian takes some of the most popular questions about Scrum from Quora.com and answers them. Overview If you are unfamiliar with it, Quora.com is a site people in the technology industry go to to ask and answer questions. For a change of pace, I decided to take a batch of the most popular questions from the site and provide my own answers to them. If you have questions you’d like to include in a similar episode in the future, make sure to email them to [email protected].   Listen now to discover:  01:14 Brian explains the premise behind this episode’s topic 02:25 Question 1: Why do iterations in Agile start from Wednesday to Tuesday rather than Monday to Friday? 09:00 Question 2: Are Burndown charts even useful? 16:14 Question 3: Who decides sprint duration in a Scrum project? 18:50 Question 4: As a Scrummaster, how do you deal with people being late or refusing to come to Daily Scrums? 24.32 Question 5: Can a User Story be used for bugs? 26:54 Question 6: Can Agile work without a Scrummaster?   Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  Join us next time where we will be discussing the topic of Quality with our guest Mitch Lacey.    References and resources mentioned in the show Send your questions for a future episode to [email protected].   Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected]   This episode’s presenter is: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Scott Dunn joins Brian to talk about what it means to be product-centric Overview Being product-centric has become a recent buzzword and objective for companies. But what does it mean? Is it the next stage of becoming agile? Or is it something that should drive an agile transformation in the first place? In this episode Scott and Brian discuss their definitions of what it means to be product-centric, and whether this is different to being customer-focused. They also look at the limitations that can stop teams from being more focused on the customer and long-term product value, such as being forced to fight those daily fires.  Listen now to discover:  00:23 - What does the term product-centric mean?  07:13 - Is there a difference between being product-centric and customer focused?  14:47 - Are nonprofits customer-focused entities? 22:02 - Does product-centric mean putting quality first?  28:23 - How does a disconnect between leadership and teams affect things?  Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  Next time, I’ll be answering questions you’ve sent into the show as well as addressing other common agile questions.    References and resources mentioned in the show Impact Mapping and Story Mapping The Scrum Guide Kano Model for prioritization Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Certified Scrum Trainer with more than 20 years of experience in management, project management (PMP), engagement management, and software development (MCSD). He is passionate about strengths-based teams and a solutions-based approach to people and organizational issues. Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Scott Dunn joins Brian to talk about what it means to be product-centric Overview Being product-centric has become a recent buzzword and objective for companies. But what does it mean? Is it the next stage of becoming agile? Or is it something that should drive an agile transformation in the first place? In this episode Scott and Brian discuss their definitions of what it means to be product-centric, and whether this is different to being customer-focused. They also look at the limitations that can stop teams from being more focused on the customer and long-term product value, such as being forced to fight those daily fires.  Listen now to discover:  00:23 - What does the term product-centric mean?  07:13 - Is there a difference between being product-centric and customer focused?  14:47 - Are nonprofits customer-focused entities? 22:02 - Does product-centric mean putting quality first?  28:23 - How does a disconnect between leadership and teams affect things?  Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  Next time, I’ll be answering questions you’ve sent into the show as well as addressing other common agile questions.    References and resources mentioned in the show Impact Mapping and Story Mapping The Scrum Guide Kano Model for prioritization Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Certified Scrum Trainer with more than 20 years of experience in management, project management (PMP), engagement management, and software development (MCSD). He is passionate about strengths-based teams and a solutions-based approach to people and organizational issues. Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Lance Dacy joins Brian to dig into cross-functionality. Overview You will often hear people say that Scrum teams are cross-functional. But what do we mean when we say that? Are we talking about a jack of all trades but master of none? Do we want team members who can do anything? How does a cross-functional team actually work together and what should we do as agilists to support and nurture cross-functionality in our teams? Join as we discuss these and other aspects of cross-functional teams. Listen now to discover:  02:00 Lance tells us how he defines cross-functional teams 04:34 Brian compares cross-functional teams to the A-Team 08:58 Lance talks about generalists vs specialists 12:39 Brian talks about T-shaped individuals 18:05 Brian discusses the Equity Couch 24:10 Brian describes the Market of Skills tool 27:45 Lance talks about personality profiles 29:20 Brian asks Lance about how to handle cross-functionality on specialist teams Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  Scott Dunn joins us again to discuss the term ‘product-centric.’  References and resources mentioned in the show The A-Team Market of Skills by Lyssa Adkins OSEMN Process What does Scrum mean by Cross-functional? Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away. Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Lance Dacy joins Brian to dig into cross-functionality. Overview You will often hear people say that Scrum teams are cross-functional. But what do we mean when we say that? Are we talking about a jack of all trades but master of none? Do we want team members who can do anything? How does a cross-functional team actually work together and what should we do as agilists to support and nurture cross-functionality in our teams? Join as we discuss these and other aspects of cross-functional teams. Listen now to discover:  02:00 Lance tells us how he defines cross-functional teams 04:34 Brian compares cross-functional teams to the A-Team 08:58 Lance talks about generalists vs specialists 12:39 Brian talks about T-shaped individuals 18:05 Brian discusses the Equity Couch 24:10 Brian describes the Market of Skills tool 27:45 Lance talks about personality profiles 29:20 Brian asks Lance about how to handle cross-functionality on specialist teams Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  Scott Dunn joins us again to discuss the term ‘product-centric.’  References and resources mentioned in the show The A-Team Market of Skills by Lyssa Adkins OSEMN Process What does Scrum mean by Cross-functional? Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away. Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Kert joins Brian again to talk about Kanban Kanban is a pull system of working where work is ‘pulled’ in based on a team’s capacity. Whether it’s a card from a backlog, or a bin of items on a manufacturing floor, the concept of pulling in work is common to both kanban and scrum. It supports the idea of being agile because whenever you’re pulling work in, you’re basing it on the latest feedback and emergent needs so that you can focus on delivering the most value. Listen now for an overview of Kanban as well as common mistakes to avoid.  Listen now to discover:  00:48 - The origin of Kanban’s meaning 04:34 - How the principles of Kanban are expressed in Scrum  07:00 - Common misconceptions people have about Kanban 09:00 - The five pillars of Kanban 12:58 - How to get started  19:41 - How to improve your current Kanban process Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  I’ll be joined by Lance Dacy as we talk about cross-functional teams.  References and resources mentioned in the show Kanban University The Official Guide to the Kanban Method Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Kert began his professional career as a Software Engineer in NASA's Space Shuttle program, affording him practical insights into the daily challenges faced by engineers, designers, and testers. Driven by the belief that learning unlocks potential, Kert has pioneered educational programs for Dell, Rockwell Collins, Amazon.com, and Capital One Financial. Kert is one of the few trainers world-wide to be actively credentialed as both a Scrum and Kanban trainer by Scrum Alliance and Kanban University, respectively.  Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Kert joins Brian again to talk about Kanban Kanban is a pull system of working where work is ‘pulled’ in based on a team’s capacity. Whether it’s a card from a backlog, or a bin of items on a manufacturing floor, the concept of pulling in work is common to both kanban and scrum. It supports the idea of being agile because whenever you’re pulling work in, you’re basing it on the latest feedback and emergent needs so that you can focus on delivering the most value. Listen now for an overview of Kanban as well as common mistakes to avoid.  Listen now to discover:  00:48 - The origin of Kanban’s meaning 04:34 - How the principles of Kanban are expressed in Scrum  07:00 - Common misconceptions people have about Kanban 09:00 - The five pillars of Kanban 12:58 - How to get started  19:41 - How to improve your current Kanban process Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  I’ll be joined by Lance Dacy as we talk about cross-functional teams.  References and resources mentioned in the show Kanban University The Official Guide to the Kanban Method Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Kert began his professional career as a Software Engineer in NASA's Space Shuttle program, affording him practical insights into the daily challenges faced by engineers, designers, and testers. Driven by the belief that learning unlocks potential, Kert has pioneered educational programs for Dell, Rockwell Collins, Amazon.com, and Capital One Financial. Kert is one of the few trainers world-wide to be actively credentialed as both a Scrum and Kanban trainer by Scrum Alliance and Kanban University, respectively.  Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Brian and Mike talk about why and how to use Story Points in estimating. Overview  To estimate or not to estimate. There are many different views on the matter. It’s important then to start with why. Why would we spend time estimating in the first place? What is the benefit of that effort? Do all Agile teams need to estimate? Join Brian Milner and Mike Cohn as they discuss estimating using Story Points in order to plan for things such as releases. Listen now to discover:  1:51 - Mike talks about the 3 reasons why would we estimate in the first place? 4:30 - Brian asks about the #NoEstimates movement 8:00 - Brian talks about the marketing aspect of his conference talk this year 9:42 - Mike defines what a Story Point is 14:30 - Mike talks about using Story Points as a performance metric 21:20 - Mike talks about consistency in point scales across teams 25:58 - Mike talks about working with contractual constraints when using Story Points Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  Join us as we dive into Kanban with Kert Peterson. We’ll talk about this close relative to Scrum and discuss how these two can coexists in today’s Agile world. References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Estimating and Planning by Mike Cohn Agile Estimating and Planning online ecourse by Mike Cohn Woody Zuill of the #noestimates movement (and Mob Programming) Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Mike Cohn is co-founder of the Scrum Alliance, and founder of Mountain Goat Software. He’s a veteran of applying Scrum and agile principles and practices to help organizations build better products, and ship them on time. Show edited by Rhett Gill

Brian and Mike talk about why and how to use Story Points in estimating. Overview  To estimate or not to estimate. There are many different views on the matter. It’s important then to start with why. Why would we spend time estimating in the first place? What is the benefit of that effort? Do all Agile teams need to estimate? Join Brian Milner and Mike Cohn as they discuss estimating using Story Points in order to plan for things such as releases. Listen now to discover:  1:51 - Mike talks about the 3 reasons why would we estimate in the first place? 4:30 - Brian asks about the #NoEstimates movement 8:00 - Brian talks about the marketing aspect of his conference talk this year 9:42 - Mike defines what a Story Point is 14:30 - Mike talks about using Story Points as a performance metric 21:20 - Mike talks about consistency in point scales across teams 25:58 - Mike talks about working with contractual constraints when using Story Points Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  Join us as we dive into Kanban with Kert Peterson. We’ll talk about this close relative to Scrum and discuss how these two can coexists in today’s Agile world. References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Estimating and Planning by Mike Cohn Agile Estimating and Planning online ecourse by Mike Cohn Woody Zuill of the #noestimates movement (and Mob Programming) Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Mike Cohn is co-founder of the Scrum Alliance, and founder of Mountain Goat Software. He’s a veteran of applying Scrum and agile principles and practices to help organizations build better products, and ship them on time. Show edited by Rhett Gill

Brian and Mike talk about how to capture requirements with User Stories. User Stories are not native to Scrum. We actually borrow the practice from XP. Traditionally, requirements were gathered in huge binders that were very detailed and complex. These were considered complete and were locked down when development began. Teams quickly found that change was a constant and this method of capturing requirements didn’t allow for requirements to emerge. Enter User Stories.  Listen now to discover:  2:15 - Mike talks about the history of User Stories 4:00 - Mike discusses the problem User Stories is attempting to solve 4:58 - Mike talks about making lunch 7:30 - Mike talks about when NOT to use User Stories 10:26 - Mike and Brian talk about The Beatles 14:00 - Is As a User an ok way to start a User Story? 15:00 - Mike talks about Job Stories 19:55 - Mike talks about some common mistakes people make with User Stories 23:00 - Is the So That clause needed? Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  Mike Cohn returns to discuss Estimating with Brian. Mike has written a book about this (Agile Estimating and Planning) and will share his insights on this important topic. References and resources mentioned in the show User Stories Applied - by Mike Cohn Better User Stories course - by Mike Cohn Billboard interview with Paul McCartney where he talks about using personal pronouns Intercom who makes chatbots Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Mike Cohn is co-founder of the Scrum Alliance, and founder of Mountain Goat Software. He’s a veteran of applying Scrum and agile principles and practices to help organizations build better products, and ship them on time. Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Brian and Mike talk about how to capture requirements with User Stories. User Stories are not native to Scrum. We actually borrow the practice from XP. Traditionally, requirements were gathered in huge binders that were very detailed and complex. These were considered complete and were locked down when development began. Teams quickly found that change was a constant and this method of capturing requirements didn’t allow for requirements to emerge. Enter User Stories.  Listen now to discover:  2:15 - Mike talks about the history of User Stories 4:00 - Mike discusses the problem User Stories is attempting to solve 4:58 - Mike talks about making lunch 7:30 - Mike talks about when NOT to use User Stories 10:26 - Mike and Brian talk about The Beatles 14:00 - Is As a User an ok way to start a User Story? 15:00 - Mike talks about Job Stories 19:55 - Mike talks about some common mistakes people make with User Stories 23:00 - Is the So That clause needed? Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  Mike Cohn returns to discuss Estimating with Brian. Mike has written a book about this (Agile Estimating and Planning) and will share his insights on this important topic. References and resources mentioned in the show User Stories Applied - by Mike Cohn Better User Stories course - by Mike Cohn Billboard interview with Paul McCartney where he talks about using personal pronouns Intercom who makes chatbots Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Mike Cohn is co-founder of the Scrum Alliance, and founder of Mountain Goat Software. He’s a veteran of applying Scrum and agile principles and practices to help organizations build better products, and ship them on time. Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Brian and Kert talk about the final component of the Scrum Framework - Artifacts.  Overview  The term “artifact” seems a bit strange, doesn’t it? Why would the authors of Scrum include this as a component of the framework? What are the main artifacts that Scrum prescribes? And what are some of the other artifacts that are not required but many teams see as helpful to the running of a Scrum team? In this episode, Brian and Kert will discuss this final component of the Scrum framework in the Scrum Framework series and give you pointers on how to make the most out of the Scrum artifacts. Listen now to discover:  3:45 - hear Kert and Brian talk about the roots of this term 6:15 - Kert talks about his experience with documentation working at NASA 9:15 - Kert talks about the two backlogs in Scrum 12:30 - Brian and Kert talk about what level of detail is needed in backlog items 16:12 - Who is the therapist on a Scrum team? 19:00 Is tasking out everything required for Sprint Planning? 23:41 - Kert talks about how Ken Schwaber called Scrum, “The Art of the Possible” 31:27 Brian and Kert talk about the Definition of Done 33:24 Brian talks about a tool to facilitate the creation of a Definition of Done Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  Mike Cohn returns to discuss User Stories with Brian. Mike has literally written the book on User Stories (User Stories Applied) and shares his wealth of experience and knowledge on the subject. References and resources mentioned in the show Married at First Site - Lifetime TV Network Larry Maccherone talks about Kanban Metrics David A. Koontz’s exercise for creating a Definition of Done Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Kert began his professional career as a Software Engineer in NASA's Space Shuttle program, affording him practical insights into the daily challenges faced by engineers, designers, and testers. Driven by the belief that learning unlocks potential, Kert has pioneered educational programs for Dell, Rockwell Collins, Amazon.com, and Capital One Financial. Kert is one of the few trainers world-wide to be actively credentialed as both a Scrum and Kanban trainer by Scrum Alliance and Kanban University, respectively.

Brian and Kert talk about the final component of the Scrum Framework - Artifacts.  Overview  The term “artifact” seems a bit strange, doesn’t it? Why would the authors of Scrum include this as a component of the framework? What are the main artifacts that Scrum prescribes? And what are some of the other artifacts that are not required but many teams see as helpful to the running of a Scrum team? In this episode, Brian and Kert will discuss this final component of the Scrum framework in the Scrum Framework series and give you pointers on how to make the most out of the Scrum artifacts. Listen now to discover:  3:45 - hear Kert and Brian talk about the roots of this term 6:15 - Kert talks about his experience with documentation working at NASA 9:15 - Kert talks about the two backlogs in Scrum 12:30 - Brian and Kert talk about what level of detail is needed in backlog items 16:12 - Who is the therapist on a Scrum team? 19:00 Is tasking out everything required for Sprint Planning? 23:41 - Kert talks about how Ken Schwaber called Scrum, “The Art of the Possible” 31:27 Brian and Kert talk about the Definition of Done 33:24 Brian talks about a tool to facilitate the creation of a Definition of Done Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  Mike Cohn returns to discuss User Stories with Brian. Mike has literally written the book on User Stories (User Stories Applied) and shares his wealth of experience and knowledge on the subject. References and resources mentioned in the show Married at First Site - Lifetime TV Network Larry Maccherone talks about Kanban Metrics David A. Koontz’s exercise for creating a Definition of Done Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Kert began his professional career as a Software Engineer in NASA's Space Shuttle program, affording him practical insights into the daily challenges faced by engineers, designers, and testers. Driven by the belief that learning unlocks potential, Kert has pioneered educational programs for Dell, Rockwell Collins, Amazon.com, and Capital One Financial. Kert is one of the few trainers world-wide to be actively credentialed as both a Scrum and Kanban trainer by Scrum Alliance and Kanban University, respectively.

Join Brian Milner and guest co-host Scott Dunn as they discuss why the retrospective is an important part of agile and how to use this meeting to help teams to improve continuously. Overview In this episode, Brian Milner is joined by guest co-host Scott Dunn, Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer, to get insights into delivering retrospective sessions that energize and inform the whole team — while ensuring they are effective at meeting goals. A sprint retrospective is a great way for teams to reflect on the previous sprint but this meeting can become stale if you sleepwalk your way through the same agenda every time. Brian and Scott discuss the Scrum Master’s responsibility to take ownership of the retrospective and the importance of developing a toolkit of techniques that you can use and adapt to engage and motivate your teams. There are many great retrospective ideas in the Agile community, including variations and additions on the basic questions and creative facilitation techniques. Sharing their experiences and offering advice to Scrum Masters on how to empower their teams, drive participation and unlock creativity, Brian and Scott discuss the importance of innovation and how to establish a culture of trust and accomplishment to maximize the value of this meeting. Listen now to discover: ·       00:03:00 - Why Scrum Masters need to establish safety for retrospectives to work ·       00:07:00 - How to structure a retrospective to motivate teams ·       00:09:00 - Why it is not the Scrum Master’s responsibility to resolve all impediments ·       00:11:00 - How to empower your team to have more agency over the work and make a difference as team members ·       00:13:30 - Why Scrum Masters need to take ownership of the retrospective ·       00:19:00 - Why you need to change up your retrospective to engage your team ·       00:19:30 - How to conduct fun and engaging retrospectives ·       00:23:58 - How to influence and shape your team’s culture ·       00:26:10 - How to get value from a retrospective with an introverted team References and resources mentioned in the show ·       Strengths-based Leadership - Gallup ·       Training from the Back of the Room – Sharon Bowman ·       Marcus Buckingham ·       Agile Retrospectives - Making Good Teams Great - Esther Derby and Diana Larson Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ·       Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ·       Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Certified Scrum Trainer with more than 20 years of experience in management, project management (PMP), engagement management, and software development (MCSD). He is passionate about strengths-based teams and a solutions-based approach to people and organizational issues.

Join Brian Milner and guest co-host Scott Dunn as they discuss why the retrospective is an important part of agile and how to use this meeting to help teams to improve continuously. Overview In this episode, Brian Milner is joined by guest co-host Scott Dunn, Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer, to get insights into delivering retrospective sessions that energize and inform the whole team — while ensuring they are effective at meeting goals. A sprint retrospective is a great way for teams to reflect on the previous sprint but this meeting can become stale if you sleepwalk your way through the same agenda every time. Brian and Scott discuss the Scrum Master’s responsibility to take ownership of the retrospective and the importance of developing a toolkit of techniques that you can use and adapt to engage and motivate your teams. There are many great retrospective ideas in the Agile community, including variations and additions on the basic questions and creative facilitation techniques. Sharing their experiences and offering advice to Scrum Masters on how to empower their teams, drive participation and unlock creativity, Brian and Scott discuss the importance of innovation and how to establish a culture of trust and accomplishment to maximize the value of this meeting. Listen now to discover: ·       00:03:00 - Why Scrum Masters need to establish safety for retrospectives to work ·       00:07:00 - How to structure a retrospective to motivate teams ·       00:09:00 - Why it is not the Scrum Master’s responsibility to resolve all impediments ·       00:11:00 - How to empower your team to have more agency over the work and make a difference as team members ·       00:13:30 - Why Scrum Masters need to take ownership of the retrospective ·       00:19:00 - Why you need to change up your retrospective to engage your team ·       00:19:30 - How to conduct fun and engaging retrospectives ·       00:23:58 - How to influence and shape your team’s culture ·       00:26:10 - How to get value from a retrospective with an introverted team References and resources mentioned in the show ·       Strengths-based Leadership - Gallup ·       Training from the Back of the Room – Sharon Bowman ·       Marcus Buckingham ·       Agile Retrospectives - Making Good Teams Great - Esther Derby and Diana Larson Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ·       Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ·       Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Certified Scrum Trainer with more than 20 years of experience in management, project management (PMP), engagement management, and software development (MCSD). He is passionate about strengths-based teams and a solutions-based approach to people and organizational issues.

Join Brian Milner and Julie Chickering as they discuss the true purpose of the Sprint Review and why it is a mistake to call this event a ‘demo’. Overview  Brian Milner talks with Julie Chickering about Sprint Reviews, addressing the myth that the Sprint Review is primarily an opportunity to ‘demo’ the increment to stakeholders. As an experienced Project Management Professional, Julie shares her perspective on the Sprint Reviews from a project management viewpoint. She shares different ways to approach this event and offers advice on what components are needed for a good quality Sprint Review. Brian and Julie agree that the Sprint Review meeting is probably the most important Scrum event for product people as it encourages collaboration and generates the feedback required to increase the chances of creating a successful product. However, opinions on who should attend the meeting, how it should be run, and how to collect relevant feedback can change quite considerably from one organization to another. Are you holding Sprint Reviews every Sprint? Do you have Stakeholders in your Sprint Reviews? Are you getting valuable feedback from your Stakeholders in your Sprint Reviews? Brian and Julie discuss why you should be answering “Yes” to each of these questions and share their tips on how to make your Sprint Review more effective. Listen now to discover: ·       00:06:06 - How the Scrum Review saves time in the long run ·       00:10:20 - The benefits of reducing the distance between the developer and the end user  ·       00:11:49 - The Stakeholder feedback window – how long should feedback take? ·       00:12:19 - Why you should never skip a Sprint Review ·       00:12:30 - Why Stakeholders need to be constantly engaged for a Scrum team to be successful ·       00:13:49 - The integral role of the Product Owner in Sprint Reviews ·       00:17:05 - Why you shouldn’t cancel a Sprint Review even if work isn’t “done” ·       00:21:36 - Why you need to clarity the definition of “done” to Stakeholders ·       00:27:19 - Tips and feedback to anyone wanting to improve their Sprint Reviews ·       00:31:02 - The importance of preparation before Sprint Reviews ·       00:34:29 - Methods of collecting feedback ·       00:39:32 - The best order for a Sprint review ·       00:41:36 - How to coach stakeholders to increase team productivity Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  Sprint Retrospectives with guest co-host Scott Dunn. You’ll learn the primary importance of this Scrum event and how to run effective and engaging Sprint Retrospective meetings that boost productivity and lead to positive change. References and resources mentioned in the show ·       Daniel Pink – When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●  Enjoyed what you heard today? Take a second to leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●  Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Julie Chickering is a certified Scrum Trainer as well as a CST, PMP, PMI-ACP CSM, CSPO, and Path to CSP Educator. She believes that Agile practices are packed with potential - to enable business agility, and breakthrough results. Julie loves to help people implement agile even when the environments are messy, people are complicated, and situations are challenging. She brings real-world experience working with people at all levels to adopt and roll out realistic Agile strategies organization-wide.

Join Brian Milner and Julie Chickering as they discuss the true purpose of the Sprint Review and why it is a mistake to call this event a ‘demo’. Overview  Brian Milner talks with Julie Chickering about Sprint Reviews, addressing the myth that the Sprint Review is primarily an opportunity to ‘demo’ the increment to stakeholders. As an experienced Project Management Professional, Julie shares her perspective on the Sprint Reviews from a project management viewpoint. She shares different ways to approach this event and offers advice on what components are needed for a good quality Sprint Review. Brian and Julie agree that the Sprint Review meeting is probably the most important Scrum event for product people as it encourages collaboration and generates the feedback required to increase the chances of creating a successful product. However, opinions on who should attend the meeting, how it should be run, and how to collect relevant feedback can change quite considerably from one organization to another. Are you holding Sprint Reviews every Sprint? Do you have Stakeholders in your Sprint Reviews? Are you getting valuable feedback from your Stakeholders in your Sprint Reviews? Brian and Julie discuss why you should be answering “Yes” to each of these questions and share their tips on how to make your Sprint Review more effective. Listen now to discover: ·       00:06:06 - How the Scrum Review saves time in the long run ·       00:10:20 - The benefits of reducing the distance between the developer and the end user  ·       00:11:49 - The Stakeholder feedback window – how long should feedback take? ·       00:12:19 - Why you should never skip a Sprint Review ·       00:12:30 - Why Stakeholders need to be constantly engaged for a Scrum team to be successful ·       00:13:49 - The integral role of the Product Owner in Sprint Reviews ·       00:17:05 - Why you shouldn’t cancel a Sprint Review even if work isn’t “done” ·       00:21:36 - Why you need to clarity the definition of “done” to Stakeholders ·       00:27:19 - Tips and feedback to anyone wanting to improve their Sprint Reviews ·       00:31:02 - The importance of preparation before Sprint Reviews ·       00:34:29 - Methods of collecting feedback ·       00:39:32 - The best order for a Sprint review ·       00:41:36 - How to coach stakeholders to increase team productivity Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  Sprint Retrospectives with guest co-host Scott Dunn. You’ll learn the primary importance of this Scrum event and how to run effective and engaging Sprint Retrospective meetings that boost productivity and lead to positive change. References and resources mentioned in the show ·       Daniel Pink – When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ●  Enjoyed what you heard today? Take a second to leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ●  Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Julie Chickering is a certified Scrum Trainer as well as a CST, PMP, PMI-ACP CSM, CSPO, and Path to CSP Educator. She believes that Agile practices are packed with potential - to enable business agility, and breakthrough results. Julie loves to help people implement agile even when the environments are messy, people are complicated, and situations are challenging. She brings real-world experience working with people at all levels to adopt and roll out realistic Agile strategies organization-wide.

This week, Brian Milner is joined by Julie Chickering to talk about the best practices and common pitfalls to avoid during the Daily Scrum event. Overview Brian Milner and Julie Chickering discuss the true purpose of the Daily Scrum and how to make this 15-minute meeting more efficient. According to the Scrum Guide, the Daily Scrum is to inspect progress towards the Sprint Goal, synchronize activities, and create a plan for the next 24 hours. Debunking the myth that “The Daily Scrum is a Status Meeting”, Julie and Brian share their first-hand experience of this misconception and show Scrum Masters how to transform the Daily Scrum into a purposeful and collaborative planning session led by the Developers, for the Developers. You’ll learn how to get your Daily Scrum under control and discover new approaches to encourage productivity, accountability and collective ownership as well as Daily Scrum formats that encourage teamwork. Finally, Brian and Julie dive deep into the struggles brought by remote working and the many alternatives to tackle this issue. Listen now to discover: -        02:00 - The purpose of the daily scrum and common misconceptions -        11:00 - How to use the sprint backlog to prioritize work -        00:12 - The importance of teamwork and striving for smaller stories that flow -        14:56 - How to encourage developers to take ownership of the Daily Scrum -        00:20 - Suggestions for Daily Scrum formats to encourage teamwork -        00:22 - When to update items on the Sprint Backlog to benefit the Daily Scrum meeting -        00:25 - How to encourage accountability and collective ownership of work -        00:27 - How to monitor and assess unplanned work and forecast velocity -        00:35 - Guidelines for problem identification and problem solving during the Daily Scrum -        00:38 - How to adapt the Daily Scrum for distributed teams in a remote world -        00:44 - The benefits of cross training -        00:45 - The 16th minute concept -        00:47 - Ken Schwaber’s clockwise scrum methodology Listen next time when we’ll be discussing... Julie joins Brian again to explain the true purpose of the Sprint Review and why it is a mistake to call this event a ‘demo’. References and resources mentioned in the show ·       Agile Project Management with Scrum by Ken Schwaber ·       The Scrum Guide Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ·       Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ·       Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Julie Chickering is a certified Scrum Trainer as well as a CST, PMP, PMI-ACP CSM, CSPO, and Path to CSP Educator. She believes that Agile practices are packed with potential — to enable business agility, and breakthrough results. Julie loves to help people implement agile even when the environments are messy, people are complicated, and situations are challenging. She brings real-world experience working with people at all levels to adopt and roll out realistic Agile strategies organization-wide.

This week, Brian Milner is joined by Julie Chickering to talk about the best practices and common pitfalls to avoid during the Daily Scrum event. Overview Brian Milner and Julie Chickering discuss the true purpose of the Daily Scrum and how to make this 15-minute meeting more efficient. According to the Scrum Guide, the Daily Scrum is to inspect progress towards the Sprint Goal, synchronize activities, and create a plan for the next 24 hours. Debunking the myth that “The Daily Scrum is a Status Meeting”, Julie and Brian share their first-hand experience of this misconception and show Scrum Masters how to transform the Daily Scrum into a purposeful and collaborative planning session led by the Developers, for the Developers. You’ll learn how to get your Daily Scrum under control and discover new approaches to encourage productivity, accountability and collective ownership as well as Daily Scrum formats that encourage teamwork. Finally, Brian and Julie dive deep into the struggles brought by remote working and the many alternatives to tackle this issue. Listen now to discover: -        02:00 - The purpose of the daily scrum and common misconceptions -        11:00 - How to use the sprint backlog to prioritize work -        00:12 - The importance of teamwork and striving for smaller stories that flow -        14:56 - How to encourage developers to take ownership of the Daily Scrum -        00:20 - Suggestions for Daily Scrum formats to encourage teamwork -        00:22 - When to update items on the Sprint Backlog to benefit the Daily Scrum meeting -        00:25 - How to encourage accountability and collective ownership of work -        00:27 - How to monitor and assess unplanned work and forecast velocity -        00:35 - Guidelines for problem identification and problem solving during the Daily Scrum -        00:38 - How to adapt the Daily Scrum for distributed teams in a remote world -        00:44 - The benefits of cross training -        00:45 - The 16th minute concept -        00:47 - Ken Schwaber’s clockwise scrum methodology Listen next time when we’ll be discussing... Julie joins Brian again to explain the true purpose of the Sprint Review and why it is a mistake to call this event a ‘demo’. References and resources mentioned in the show ·       Agile Project Management with Scrum by Ken Schwaber ·       The Scrum Guide Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ·       Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ·       Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Julie Chickering is a certified Scrum Trainer as well as a CST, PMP, PMI-ACP CSM, CSPO, and Path to CSP Educator. She believes that Agile practices are packed with potential — to enable business agility, and breakthrough results. Julie loves to help people implement agile even when the environments are messy, people are complicated, and situations are challenging. She brings real-world experience working with people at all levels to adopt and roll out realistic Agile strategies organization-wide.

In this episode, Scott Dunn and Brian review the key aspects of leading an effective sprint planning meeting: its purpose, how it works, who attends, and ensuring yours are achieving the desired result. Overview Brian Milner and Scott Dunn discuss product ownership and leading a sprint planning meeting. 2020’s Scrum Guide introduced new guidance: sprint planning must go beyond the WHAT and the HOW of product backlog items to the WHY, specifically why is the sprint valuable? Scott shares his firsthand experience of how to run an effective sprint planning meeting, including focusing on the ‘Why?’ plus practical advice on increasing an agile team’s motivation and engagement. You’ll learn why the product owner-development team relationship is the linchpin of sprint-planning success and the primacy of preparation, forward vision, and a value-driven mindset. Final advice includes better communication of expectations with distributed team members and aligning with the evolving nature of the tech landscape through trying new approaches. Listen now to discover: ·       04:00 – How asking ‘Why?’ adds value and motivates, empowers, and engages teams ·       07:00 – Why the relationship between the product owner and development team is the linchpin of success ·       10:00 – What level of detail Scrum teams should be striving for during a sprint planning meeting ·       12:00 – The purpose of a sprint review and what needs to change in order to support inclusive collaboration ·       14:00 – How to leave room for discovery with minimal documentation ·       15:52 – How flexible requirements and ongoing conversation enable collaboration and employee engagement ·       17:00 – How to remain focused on driving value when facilitating sprint planning meetings ·       19:00 – The mindset shift required to define value through conversation and negotiation ·       21:30 – Craig Larman methodology - culture follows structure ·       22:00 – Why assigning work during sprint planning kills collaboration and team spirit ·       26:00 – The purpose of the sprint planning meeting and how to maximize the time allocated ·       27:30 – The restrictions of forward planning and how to find confidence in emergent architecture to align with the changing nature of tech organizations ·       30:00 – How product owners in sprint planning can improve efficiency through preparation ·       34:00 – Tips for distributed teams: adapting to remote working, improving communication, and more effective sprint planning ·       40:30 – The ‘Inspect and Adapt’ concept: the importance of trying new approaches and implementing new methods.  Listen next time when we’ll be discussing . . . Daily scrums with certified Scrum trainer, Julie Chickering. You’ll learn the true purpose of this 15-minute time-boxed event as well as common pitfalls and mistakes to avoid in this meeting. References and resources mentioned in the show: ·       Larman's Laws of Organizational Behavior ·       David Hawks Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ·       Enjoyed what you heard today? Take a second to leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ·       Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Certified Scrum Trainer with more than 20 years of experience in management, project management (PMP), engagement management, and software development (MCSD). He is passionate about strengths-based teams and a solutions-based approach to people and organizational issues. Show edited by Rhett Gill.

In this episode, Scott Dunn and Brian review the key aspects of leading an effective sprint planning meeting: its purpose, how it works, who attends, and ensuring yours are achieving the desired result. Overview Brian Milner and Scott Dunn discuss product ownership and leading a sprint planning meeting. 2020’s Scrum Guide introduced new guidance: sprint planning must go beyond the WHAT and the HOW of product backlog items to the WHY, specifically why is the sprint valuable? Scott shares his firsthand experience of how to run an effective sprint planning meeting, including focusing on the ‘Why?’ plus practical advice on increasing an agile team’s motivation and engagement. You’ll learn why the product owner-development team relationship is the linchpin of sprint-planning success and the primacy of preparation, forward vision, and a value-driven mindset. Final advice includes better communication of expectations with distributed team members and aligning with the evolving nature of the tech landscape through trying new approaches. Listen now to discover: ·       04:00 – How asking ‘Why?’ adds value and motivates, empowers, and engages teams ·       07:00 – Why the relationship between the product owner and development team is the linchpin of success ·       10:00 – What level of detail Scrum teams should be striving for during a sprint planning meeting ·       12:00 – The purpose of a sprint review and what needs to change in order to support inclusive collaboration ·       14:00 – How to leave room for discovery with minimal documentation ·       15:52 – How flexible requirements and ongoing conversation enable collaboration and employee engagement ·       17:00 – How to remain focused on driving value when facilitating sprint planning meetings ·       19:00 – The mindset shift required to define value through conversation and negotiation ·       21:30 – Craig Larman methodology - culture follows structure ·       22:00 – Why assigning work during sprint planning kills collaboration and team spirit ·       26:00 – The purpose of the sprint planning meeting and how to maximize the time allocated ·       27:30 – The restrictions of forward planning and how to find confidence in emergent architecture to align with the changing nature of tech organizations ·       30:00 – How product owners in sprint planning can improve efficiency through preparation ·       34:00 – Tips for distributed teams: adapting to remote working, improving communication, and more effective sprint planning ·       40:30 – The ‘Inspect and Adapt’ concept: the importance of trying new approaches and implementing new methods.  Listen next time when we’ll be discussing . . . Daily scrums with certified Scrum trainer, Julie Chickering. You’ll learn the true purpose of this 15-minute time-boxed event as well as common pitfalls and mistakes to avoid in this meeting. References and resources mentioned in the show: ·       Larman's Laws of Organizational Behavior ·       David Hawks Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ·       Enjoyed what you heard today? Take a second to leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ·       Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Certified Scrum Trainer with more than 20 years of experience in management, project management (PMP), engagement management, and software development (MCSD). He is passionate about strengths-based teams and a solutions-based approach to people and organizational issues. Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Join Brian Milner and Sherman Gomberg for a discussion of the importance of a Scrum team’s developers and why self-organizing teams are at the heart of agile methodologies like Scrum.  In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian Milner and Sherman Gomberg discuss the evolution of one of the Scrum roles: developer. They also explain why self-organizing teams of developers have become critical to all organizations.  On agile projects, developers are the people who “do the work” and while at first glance you may see agile developers as always engineers or other software development professionals, that’s not invariably the case. According to the Scrum Guide, the development team can be composed of all kinds of people including designers, writers, programmers, etc. Using over 25 years of Scrum, agile, and project management experience, Sherman and Brian compare notes on the topic of how to build and sustain agile, self-organizing teams. They share their insights and advice on why empowering individuals to work in cross-functional agile teams leads to greater efficiency, higher rewards, and lower risks.  Listen now to discover:  -       03:38 –How to tell whether your agile team is self-organizing -       05:25 – The advantages of having self-organized teams in agile environments  -       07:10 – Bruce Tuckman’s four stages of team development: Forming, Storming, Norming, and Performing -       09:17 – Advice for Scrum Masters and product owners on how to promote self-organization among team members -       09:60 – The parallels between software teams and sports teams: self-organize and work together to shine  -       13:34 – How and why to build a learning organization  -       18:00 – The definition of “self-managing” as cited by the Scrum Guide -       22:00 – How to address bug-fixing and technical debt during a sprint -       28:00 – The three most valuable practices adopted by developers in a sprint -       37:50 – The importance of understanding the developer role and why all three roles on a Scrum team should take a Scrum developer course -       40:48 – The role of a tech lead in Scrum   -    43:00 – Why it is essential to form a team of equals and how self-organization works to support this  Listen next time when we’ll be discussing… Sprint planning with guest co-host Scott Dunn. You’ll learn about the sprint planning event as described in the Scrum Guide and the 3 essential “Why? What? How?” topics addressed in order to plan successful sprints. References and resources mentioned in the show ●      Scrum Guide ●      The Bruce Tuckman Model ●      The Agile Manifesto       Want to get involved?  This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Don’t forget to rate and review: it really helps!  ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are:  Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Sherman Gomberg is CEO at Scrum Adventures, Inc. He is a CTC and has a total of eleven certifications from the Scrum Alliance. He has over 25 years of experience with agile, Scrum, and project management across various industries. He enjoys working with teams during breakout sessions in online courses, where he helps to bring curiosity to valuable discussions and in doing so, moves the needle from training to knowledge obtained to knowledge applied.

Join Brian Milner and Sherman Gomberg for a discussion of the importance of a Scrum team’s developers and why self-organizing teams are at the heart of agile methodologies like Scrum.  In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian Milner and Sherman Gomberg discuss the evolution of one of the Scrum roles: developer. They also explain why self-organizing teams of developers have become critical to all organizations.  On agile projects, developers are the people who “do the work” and while at first glance you may see agile developers as always engineers or other software development professionals, that’s not invariably the case. According to the Scrum Guide, the development team can be composed of all kinds of people including designers, writers, programmers, etc. Using over 25 years of Scrum, agile, and project management experience, Sherman and Brian compare notes on the topic of how to build and sustain agile, self-organizing teams. They share their insights and advice on why empowering individuals to work in cross-functional agile teams leads to greater efficiency, higher rewards, and lower risks.  Listen now to discover:  -       03:38 –How to tell whether your agile team is self-organizing -       05:25 – The advantages of having self-organized teams in agile environments  -       07:10 – Bruce Tuckman’s four stages of team development: Forming, Storming, Norming, and Performing -       09:17 – Advice for Scrum Masters and product owners on how to promote self-organization among team members -       09:60 – The parallels between software teams and sports teams: self-organize and work together to shine  -       13:34 – How and why to build a learning organization  -       18:00 – The definition of “self-managing” as cited by the Scrum Guide -       22:00 – How to address bug-fixing and technical debt during a sprint -       28:00 – The three most valuable practices adopted by developers in a sprint -       37:50 – The importance of understanding the developer role and why all three roles on a Scrum team should take a Scrum developer course -       40:48 – The role of a tech lead in Scrum   -    43:00 – Why it is essential to form a team of equals and how self-organization works to support this  Listen next time when we’ll be discussing… Sprint planning with guest co-host Scott Dunn. You’ll learn about the sprint planning event as described in the Scrum Guide and the 3 essential “Why? What? How?” topics addressed in order to plan successful sprints. References and resources mentioned in the show ●      Scrum Guide ●      The Bruce Tuckman Model ●      The Agile Manifesto       Want to get involved?  This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  ●      Enjoyed what you heard today? Don’t forget to rate and review: it really helps!  ●      Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are:  Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Sherman Gomberg is CEO at Scrum Adventures, Inc. He is a CTC and has a total of eleven certifications from the Scrum Alliance. He has over 25 years of experience with agile, Scrum, and project management across various industries. He enjoys working with teams during breakout sessions in online courses, where he helps to bring curiosity to valuable discussions and in doing so, moves the needle from training to knowledge obtained to knowledge applied.

Join Brian Milner and guest co-host Lance Dacy to look at the key capabilities of the product owner, mistakes to avoid, and getting maximum business value from the resources available.  In this episode, Brian Milner and guest co-host Lance Dacy take a detailed look at the role of the product owner.  They discuss a common source of confusion about what a product owner is, or does: people try to boil down the role to its tactical processes—such as writing user stories. The product owner may be accountable for these processes, but providing direction for what the team is trying to accomplish is their forte.  Product owners need to be great communicators and collaborators, with passion for solving problems with their product. Brian and Lance share their experiences of what makes a great product owner, the importance of protecting a team’s capacity, and why saying no is often essential to protecting the vision. Listen now to discover:  04:10 - What’s the difference between a product owner and a product manager?  07:25 - Henrick Kniberg’s criteria for successful product owners  08:57 - Why Scrum Masters focus on the how and product owners focus on the why 09:05 - What does ‘being passionate’ mean to a product owner?  12:48 - The mistake of trying to be too productive as a product owner  19:46 - Can you combine other roles with that of the product owner?  25:55 - What should you find out about a company before accepting a job offer as a product owner?  34:49 - Why one of the most important things you can do is act as a steward of the team’s capacity   Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  A special bonus episode with details about Brian’s talks at the upcoming Scrum Gathering on June 6-8   References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Product Ownership in a Nutshell - Henrick Kniberg   Want to get involved?  This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.  Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected]    This episode’s presenters are:  Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Lance is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away. Show edited by Rhett Gill.  

Join Brian Milner and guest co-host Lance Dacy to look at the key capabilities of the product owner, mistakes to avoid, and getting maximum business value from the resources available.  In this episode, Brian Milner and guest co-host Lance Dacy take a detailed look at the role of the product owner.  They discuss a common source of confusion about what a product owner is, or does: people try to boil down the role to its tactical processes—such as writing user stories. The product owner may be accountable for these processes, but providing direction for what the team is trying to accomplish is their forte.  Product owners need to be great communicators and collaborators, with passion for solving problems with their product. Brian and Lance share their experiences of what makes a great product owner, the importance of protecting a team’s capacity, and why saying no is often essential to protecting the vision. Listen now to discover:  04:10 - What’s the difference between a product owner and a product manager?  07:25 - Henrick Kniberg’s criteria for successful product owners  08:57 - Why Scrum Masters focus on the how and product owners focus on the why 09:05 - What does ‘being passionate’ mean to a product owner?  12:48 - The mistake of trying to be too productive as a product owner  19:46 - Can you combine other roles with that of the product owner?  25:55 - What should you find out about a company before accepting a job offer as a product owner?  34:49 - Why one of the most important things you can do is act as a steward of the team’s capacity   Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  A special bonus episode with details about Brian’s talks at the upcoming Scrum Gathering on June 6-8   References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Product Ownership in a Nutshell - Henrick Kniberg   Want to get involved?  This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.  Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected]    This episode’s presenters are:  Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Lance is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away. Show edited by Rhett Gill.  

In this special episode, Brian describes the upcoming Scrum Gathering in Denver, including the subject of his talks on the daily scrum and leadership styles.  The Scrum Gathering is happening in Denver on June 6-8, so in this podcast episode Brian discusses the conference and shares a preview of his two talks: one on the daily scrum and one on leadership styles.  In “Daily Scrums Suck: How I Killed the Daily Scrum and Replaced it with Something Even Better,” Brian shares his advice for making the most out of those 15-minute meetings. For his second talk, “The Opposite of Leadership: The George Costanza School of Agile Leadership,” Brian designed an interactive workshop to encourage you to turn your idea of leadership on its head to perhaps reveal a much better way to lead.  Listen now to discover:  02:33 - Daily Scrums Suck - a teaser about Brian’s first session 03:45 - The George Costanza School of Agile Leadership - details about Brian’s 75-minute workshop 08:33 - Why go to conferences? The value is often in the connections as much as the content 14:19 - If you have a Scrum Alliance certification, one conference can help you earn SEUs you need to renew 15:03 - How conferences can help you chart your next career steps 18:29 - The Coaching Clinics available at the event 19:25 - The Open Space - anyone attending can pitch a topic to talk about and Brian shares his tips for getting the best from this opportunity 21:38 - Introverted? So is Brian, but here’s how he survives a conference environment 24:55 - Planning to attend and want to meet Brian? Don’t hold back!  Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  Join Brian Milner and Sherman Gomberg as they discuss the importance of the developer role within a Scrum team and why self-organizing teams are at the heart of agile methodology. References and resources mentioned in the show Global Scrum Gathering 2022 Brian’s Talk Descriptions George Costanza turns his life around by doing the opposite Want to get involved?  This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.  Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected]  This episode’s presenter is:  Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

In this special episode, Brian describes the upcoming Scrum Gathering in Denver, including the subject of his talks on the daily scrum and leadership styles.  The Scrum Gathering is happening in Denver on June 6-8, so in this podcast episode Brian discusses the conference and shares a preview of his two talks: one on the daily scrum and one on leadership styles.  In “Daily Scrums Suck: How I Killed the Daily Scrum and Replaced it with Something Even Better,” Brian shares his advice for making the most out of those 15-minute meetings. For his second talk, “The Opposite of Leadership: The George Costanza School of Agile Leadership,” Brian designed an interactive workshop to encourage you to turn your idea of leadership on its head to perhaps reveal a much better way to lead.  Listen now to discover:  02:33 - Daily Scrums Suck - a teaser about Brian’s first session 03:45 - The George Costanza School of Agile Leadership - details about Brian’s 75-minute workshop 08:33 - Why go to conferences? The value is often in the connections as much as the content 14:19 - If you have a Scrum Alliance certification, one conference can help you earn SEUs you need to renew 15:03 - How conferences can help you chart your next career steps 18:29 - The Coaching Clinics available at the event 19:25 - The Open Space - anyone attending can pitch a topic to talk about and Brian shares his tips for getting the best from this opportunity 21:38 - Introverted? So is Brian, but here’s how he survives a conference environment 24:55 - Planning to attend and want to meet Brian? Don’t hold back!  Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  Join Brian Milner and Sherman Gomberg as they discuss the importance of the developer role within a Scrum team and why self-organizing teams are at the heart of agile methodology. References and resources mentioned in the show Global Scrum Gathering 2022 Brian’s Talk Descriptions George Costanza turns his life around by doing the opposite Want to get involved?  This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.  Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected]  This episode’s presenter is:  Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

Join Mike Cohn and Brian Milner as they discuss the Scrum Master role: its distinctions from project management, Scrum Master responsibilities for team success, and advice for new Scrum Masters. In this episode, Brian Milner talks with Mike Cohn about the Scrum Master role from the inception of its title to the role it plays in agile today.  Mike Cohn has trained more than 30,000 Scrum Masters and shares his experience of the challenges he faced early on helping project managers to transition to effective Scrum Masters.  Brian and Mike discuss the distinction and overlap between traditional project management styles and the servant-leadership role of the Scrum Master. They also talk about how responsible a Scrum Master should be for the success of the project and the success of a team.  Finally, Brian and Mike share the advice they would give to Scrum Masters who want to be valuable to any team and organization—including those looking to get their first job in this role.  Listen now to discover:  02:14 - Why the Scrum Master title was created to help people succeed in this position  04:54 - Job role, title, or accountabilities? Is one more important for defining someone’s position in a Scrum team?  07:41 - The key differences between a project manager and Scrum Master 08:43 - How responsible should a Scrum Master be for the success of a project?  13:21 - Facilitator or leader? How not to fade into the background 17:46 - How to deal with people in power who make bad agile decisions  22:06 - Continuous improvement doesn’t mean you should play it safe 26:34 - How do you know when you’re ready to break the rules to be a successful Scrum Master? 27:06 - No experience and looking for your first job? What to do (and not do) to improve your resume Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  The product owner role with guest co-host Lance Dacy. You’ll learn what it takes to be a great product owner as well as common misunderstandings people have about the role.  References and resources mentioned in the show Monty Python’s Dead Parrot sketch Kaizen approach for continuous improvement Lyssa Adkins Coaching Stances Want to get involved?  This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Take a second to leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.  Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected]  This episode’s presenters are:  Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Mike Cohn is co-founder of the Scrum Alliance, and founder of Mountain Goat Software. He’s a veteran of applying Scrum and agile principles and practices to help organizations build better products, and ship them on time. Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Join Mike Cohn and Brian Milner as they discuss the Scrum Master role: its distinctions from project management, Scrum Master responsibilities for team success, and advice for new Scrum Masters. In this episode, Brian Milner talks with Mike Cohn about the Scrum Master role from the inception of its title to the role it plays in agile today.  Mike Cohn has trained more than 30,000 Scrum Masters and shares his experience of the challenges he faced early on helping project managers to transition to effective Scrum Masters.  Brian and Mike discuss the distinction and overlap between traditional project management styles and the servant-leadership role of the Scrum Master. They also talk about how responsible a Scrum Master should be for the success of the project and the success of a team.  Finally, Brian and Mike share the advice they would give to Scrum Masters who want to be valuable to any team and organization—including those looking to get their first job in this role.  Listen now to discover:  02:14 - Why the Scrum Master title was created to help people succeed in this position  04:54 - Job role, title, or accountabilities? Is one more important for defining someone’s position in a Scrum team?  07:41 - The key differences between a project manager and Scrum Master 08:43 - How responsible should a Scrum Master be for the success of a project?  13:21 - Facilitator or leader? How not to fade into the background 17:46 - How to deal with people in power who make bad agile decisions  22:06 - Continuous improvement doesn’t mean you should play it safe 26:34 - How do you know when you’re ready to break the rules to be a successful Scrum Master? 27:06 - No experience and looking for your first job? What to do (and not do) to improve your resume Listen next time when we’ll be discussing…  The product owner role with guest co-host Lance Dacy. You’ll learn what it takes to be a great product owner as well as common misunderstandings people have about the role.  References and resources mentioned in the show Monty Python’s Dead Parrot sketch Kaizen approach for continuous improvement Lyssa Adkins Coaching Stances Want to get involved?  This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? Take a second to leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.  Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected]  This episode’s presenters are:  Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Mike Cohn is co-founder of the Scrum Alliance, and founder of Mountain Goat Software. He’s a veteran of applying Scrum and agile principles and practices to help organizations build better products, and ship them on time. Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Join Mike Cohn and Brian Milner as they discuss succeeding with agile, including how to choose a framework, the best place to start, & when to break the rules. In this first episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian Milner and Mike Cohn explain why it’s important to understand and sometimes break the rules if you want to succeed with an agile approach like Scrum.  While the Scrum Guide states that the rules are ‘immutable,’ clinging to the rulebook mindlessly only holds you back. Instead, you need to know which rules Scrum teams can flex (and when), and which agile principles should always be adhered to. Brian and Mike share their real-world experience of team members getting things right and wrong, and how you can improve your chances of making long-lasting change as you move to agile. Listen now to discover:  05:12 - Why people still confuse the terms agile and Scrum 9:01 - How moving to Scrum changed (and improved) Mike’s traditional management style  10:51 - Which rules are OK to break, and how to know when to break them 13:51 - The daily scrum has to be conducted left to right…doesn’t it? 17:38 - An agile culture or agile practices? Which do you adopt first for a successful agile transformation? 22:19 - What do people need to get right for an agile transition? 24:15 - Does continuous improvement mean cross-functional teams are worked to death? (And a fight breaks out on LinkedIn) 30:03 - Of all the methodologies and agile frameworks you can choose (Scrum, Kanban, SAFe, extreme programming, etc) which one should you start with? Listen next time when we’ll be discussing… The history of the Scrum Master role, its connection to project management, and tips to succeed in this vital Scrum role.  References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Project Management with Scrum by Ken Schwaber Scrum Guide  The Princess Bride The Agile Manifesto  The Karate Kid Nameless Organizational Change: No-Hype, Low-Resistance Corporate Transformation by Glenn Allen-Meyer Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us by Dan Pink Spotify Engineering Culture Part 1 and Part 2 Want to get involved?  This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.  Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are:  Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Mike Cohn is co-founder of the Scrum Alliance, and founder of Mountain Goat Software. He’s a veteran of applying Scrum and agile principles and practices to help organizations build better products and ship them on time. Editing by Rhett Gill

Join Mike Cohn and Brian Milner as they discuss succeeding with agile, including how to choose a framework, the best place to start, & when to break the rules. In this first episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian Milner and Mike Cohn explain why it’s important to understand and sometimes break the rules if you want to succeed with an agile approach like Scrum.  While the Scrum Guide states that the rules are ‘immutable,’ clinging to the rulebook mindlessly only holds you back. Instead, you need to know which rules Scrum teams can flex (and when), and which agile principles should always be adhered to. Brian and Mike share their real-world experience of team members getting things right and wrong, and how you can improve your chances of making long-lasting change as you move to agile. Listen now to discover:  05:12 - Why people still confuse the terms agile and Scrum 9:01 - How moving to Scrum changed (and improved) Mike’s traditional management style  10:51 - Which rules are OK to break, and how to know when to break them 13:51 - The daily scrum has to be conducted left to right…doesn’t it? 17:38 - An agile culture or agile practices? Which do you adopt first for a successful agile transformation? 22:19 - What do people need to get right for an agile transition? 24:15 - Does continuous improvement mean cross-functional teams are worked to death? (And a fight breaks out on LinkedIn) 30:03 - Of all the methodologies and agile frameworks you can choose (Scrum, Kanban, SAFe, extreme programming, etc) which one should you start with? Listen next time when we’ll be discussing… The history of the Scrum Master role, its connection to project management, and tips to succeed in this vital Scrum role.  References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Project Management with Scrum by Ken Schwaber Scrum Guide  The Princess Bride The Agile Manifesto  The Karate Kid Nameless Organizational Change: No-Hype, Low-Resistance Corporate Transformation by Glenn Allen-Meyer Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us by Dan Pink Spotify Engineering Culture Part 1 and Part 2 Want to get involved?  This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.  Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.  Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are:  Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.  Mike Cohn is co-founder of the Scrum Alliance, and founder of Mountain Goat Software. He’s a veteran of applying Scrum and agile principles and practices to help organizations build better products and ship them on time. Editing by Rhett Gill